Heavy Metal Vs. Cancel Culture
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- čas přidán 9. 02. 2021
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#MarilynManson #IcedEarth #JonSchaffer #CancelCulture #CapitolHill #TheMetalMeltdown - Zábava
By the way guys, have a great Cliff Burton Day today. RIP Cliff and his father Ray
FINALLY, something we can ALL get behind.
Cliff 🐐
@@themetalmeltdownofficial exactly, I believe with a heavy subject as this, we need a little coming together
ALL MY HOMIES LOVED CLIFF 🖤
Rip
Good video. Always glad to see people actually talk instead of just shouting platitudes.
I'm gonna be honest, as much as I love Manson's music, I'm not surprised these allegations are coming out. Considering what he thought was appropriate for a short film... yeah.
Thankfully, that film never saw the light of day.
@Ross Orange groupie?.
I don't get cancel culture, so I won't comment on that specifically. I will say anyone regardless of who they are should be held accountable if they do bad shit, say in this case terrorism or sexual abuse, take them to court if they're found guilty let them serve their time. I won't stop listening to Iced Earth. Hell honestly I feel a lot of those people in Washington were brainwashed, not that they shouldn't be held accountable for their actions as they absolutely should. But I don't listen to music for the people who made it. I listen to music that I like because.. Well for lack of a better way of saying it I like it. As an Iced Earth fan I don't get bothered by Schaffer believing there was voter fraud. I get mad because he did stupid shit and now we likely won't have new material from them for a long time if ever. As for Maralyn Manso I don't listen to him anyway, so my above statement about accountability applies. I will just say that it's fucked up we live in a world where that stuff still goes on.
Great job coming out and creating a level headed forum on this issue. The key to having these sort of discussions is to not disrespect participants for the way they feel. It's perfectly understandable that some people feel protectionist towards music and cultural icons that made a large impact on them, and it's perfectly understandable for people to feel protectionist about issues they feel strongly about, such as sexual abuse.
The place where these discussions fall apart is when the audience begins resorting to personal attacks. You won't ever change someone's mind by telling them they aren't allowed to feel the way they do. The best you can do is explain why you feel the way you do, and why you don't feel the same way as them.
There is a tremendous merit to understanding all sides of an issue, and then simply feeling however it is you do. You don't need to have a binary, one-word, Good/Bad opinion at the end. Artists are complex, and you're allowed to have complex opinions and feelings about them.
This is the most mature take I have ever seen on this.
Oh man, your jab at Razorfist warmed my soul more than you can imagine. He is everything that is wrong with the metal community.
On this topic though, my biggest issue is that Cancel Culture doesn't take growing up into account. We've all done or said some really stupid shit when we were kids, but (at least most of us) grow out of that stupidity and become better for it. You shouldn't be judged for what you did or said when you were some edgy 13 year old.
I love Razorfist for his metalmythos segments, but I can't stand him for his politics. I really dislike that he also thinks anything he doesn't like sucks. I agree with the maturity thing. I did lots of things as a teen that I wouldn't do now, and somethings I'm ashamed of, and would apologize for now how I treated a few people. There are some albums I still love but really find the lyrics funny as I did as a kid eg. MOD, SOD, Dayglo Abortions.
@@Gregbaltzer Dayglo Abortions don't get enough love.
@@donaldcady3839 I've seen them live 3 times. I have an autographed copy of their book. I have the Feed Us A Fetus T-shirt, and their first 3 albums. I had some of their later albums but I really liked their first three the most. But honestly songs called "Dog Farts", My Shit Stinks, and "Sit On My Face And Bleed" don't make me laugh at 50 like it did at 17
@@Gregbaltzer See... I don't even like his MetalMythos segments either. His reviews are extremely surface level. They range from "x song/album is fucking awesome" or "this is shit." If I didn't know of Judas Priest before watching his mythos on them, I would walk away from the video with no real insight on the band other than "They're metal legends GOD FUCKING SPEED" or whatever. He doesn't break down the producton quality, the riffing, the lyrical themes, nothing. The MetalMythos videos are just long band circlejerks that don't really have any substance to me. He talks in a loud enough voice and uses enough metaphors to make you think he has something to say, but he's really just the stereotypical metal elitist that you'd find in the metal archives discussion boards.
He's like the Nostalgia Critic of metal... and I'm talking modern NC that thought The Wall was a good idea.
@@MadMike1 I removed his video recommendations a long time ago. I just find his politics make me cringe. I find it hard to understand how anyone can be intelligent and still think that way.
Thank you for this video my dude. It was well thought with an emphasis on actual dialogue while also not spouting a bunch of useless platitudes. Also I think you and I have pretty near identical sentiments on this subject and I thank you also for phrasing everything far better than I ever could. Keep being awesome man 🤘😎
I was so disappointed in john. No way in hell I'm throwing out my Iced Earth collection though.
I really love these timely discussions
Cancel culture us dangerous,the Johnny depp thing is a huge example
@@hopewonder Johnny Depps a victim,go do your research if thats what youre saying he forced her to cut him
Jon deserves what's coming to him. Loved Iced Earth... until they made that concept album about mythologizing the Confederacy. Haven't followed them much after once I saw where that guy was coming from. Doesn't surprise me he did what he did... but it's a fucking drag.. The Horror Show was one of my favorite metal albums. That said.. there's plenty of power metal bands I can listen to. I'm not "cancelling" anyone.. whatever the hell that means in this context... I just choose not to listen to the band anymore. Is what it is.
what a good video! its really nice to hear opinions from a variety of people because it's easy to get lost in our social media echo chambers.
really appreciate this video, i love that you actually discuss the facts of the matter as opposed to just going off about everything. although i hadn’t listened to manson for a long time before the recent allegations, i was absolutely obsessed with demons & wizards when the insurrection thing happened, so i was obviously crushed about that. i’ll admit i have listened to one or two of their songs since, because for me the music is what i was there for in the first place, but obviously i’m not about to go out and buy their records anymore.
i agree with you on your take that cancel culture isn’t such a “right or wrong” issue, because although a lot of the things people are being cancelled for these days is utter bs, there’s a lot of situations where people genuinely deserve to have their careers put on hold indefinitely. i think both cases discussed in this video are the latter. no, i definitely don’t think that twitter should be the one swinging the axe on the necks of artists for whatever reasons, and i think people are far too reactionary about these things, which leads to the stupid situations i mentioned. i really just think people should be more civil and have a more logical view on these issues.
Im glad you ended up making this video man. Great work.
it's important to recognize the actions of celebrities who do shitty things, but it's also important to recognize how futile most if not all efforts to hold celebrities accountable end up being, especially if the "cancelling" almost exclusively takes place in the digital world
I think with any social or political movement, action in the real world is always going to be more impactful than reposting infographics and tweets on your Instagram story
i support BLM, but i have never posted anything related to the cause on my social media, instead, i treat everyone i meet regardless of skin color with respect
if you have a problem with manson or the iced earth guy, then don't give them any more money or public support. don't be like every other social media "revolutionary" and dedicate the bio of your Instagram to links to information about the topic and call it a day
I do agree with you with Cancel Culture being a not so simple topic. Honestly even though my political viewpoint is mostly pretty far to the left, Cancel Culture is one of those topics I am pretty Neutral on.
On Manson’s Case I don’t really know if he should be cancelled yet, when it comes to Cases on serious accusations I tend to leave it to the Court, I can understand why people would cancel him though. This situation is fucked up though but when it comes to cases like this I like to hear from both sides. If it comes out that Manson really did do this stuff then yes Cancel Him. This is a very personal thing for me since I have had Family members/ friends that have suffered abuse and have also had people who have had their lives ruined due to false accusations.
Now with Iced Earth’s case I definitely believe that THIS is a good case for Cancel Culture, since there is actual Evidence that he was apart of the Capital Riot. He was apart of a Cult that caused a Terror attack that put people’s lives in danger.
I am ok with people listening to “Controversial Artists/Bands” if they genuinely like their music but if they defend some of the shitty things or dangerous Ideologies of those Controversial Artists/bands then I’m not ok with that at all
Cancel Culture as a whole I am 50 50 on since when done well it can be used for calling out people on their shitty attitudes, and actions and it can be used to better someone but then sometimes with Cancel Culture I do feel like people do it to make themselves feel better and to boost their own egos and “Moral superiority” and then with Cancel Culture there is often people that take it way to far especially with hurtful accusations that can damage a person’s reputation without having evidence of whether or not those claims/accusations are true. Lying does happen a lot.
Honestly great discussion though, I definitely don’t agree with everyone 100% on these things and that’s ok. I just hope that you all can respect my opinion.
The most annoying part when it comes to iced earth is that people now like them because "storming the capital is so fucking metal" with these chuds it was never about the music just the theatrics of being the biggest edgelord.
I don’t think cancel culture is a real thing, it’s just a feature of the free market that people can support whichever celebrities they want. If a celebrity receives major assault allegations, and a large community of people stop supporting them in response to that, that’s their choice. Jon Schaffer obviously deserves to see legal consequences since there’s photographic evidence of him being in the Capitol, and I personally believe the allegations against Marilyn Manson, and hope to see justice for his victims.
Fantastic discussion. Love the work you are doing. Keep it up.
Great video man! Found your channel at 200 subs. Awesome watching you grow! I would suggest upping the budget in regards to editing and quality and more professional tactics in order to bring in more people, But as far as the bare bones quality of your videos, I adore them. Keep up the great work man! Here to stay👊🏼
My issue with “cancel culture” is whatever happened to “Innocent until proven Guilty”?? If an artist/celebrity has people coming forward alleging abuse or crime or whatever. Shouldn’t there be sufficient investigation and/or court proceedings to determine these allegations to be correct and true? It’s seems these days if someone is accused of something they are automatically guilty and labels, production companies, sponsors, endorsers and so on just pull out immediately before all the facts are on the table. Like you said, Johnny Depp is a great example of jumping the gun. But what then? Let’s say said accusations turn out to be untrue(hypothetically)in Mansons case. He’s already lost all his business partners. What happens then? Law suits for defamation of character? Breach of contract disputes? Civil suits? Etc.... I mean OJ was found innocent in a court of law, But guilty in a civil suit. Where will it end? I am not for cancel culture and I believe it is unfair to prematurely ruin someone’s livelihood strictly on allegations. And btw, you mentioned several times in your video that things said about what Manson is accused of are fact. That is NOT true! They are allegations from several people with a similar story. Whether it be former girlfriend’s, band mates, associates in related business or whatever. We all know Manson is a fucked up dude! I’ve never been a fan of any of his music and I am by no means siding with him. But let’s be honest here, an allegation by definition means “A claim or assertion that someone has done something wrong or illegal, typically made WITHOUT PROOF.”!!!
I am very much against cancel culture. As you said it's a gray area. This in my opinion makes it a very a hard needle to thread. Not mention I think it opens the door to all sorts of censorship. Should celebrities be held accountable for their actions, of course they should. This should be determined in a court of law not by social media. Why does there need to be a campaign to "destroy" this person? Let individuals decide whether or not they want to listener not watch. Why do we need the morality police? Proponents of cancel culture also need to consider are they doing anything positive? I just read that Manson's streams have increased.
Really great video, man. There’s a lot of great points made here. It’s a shame what both of these guys did, but I can’t say I’m surprised as well. Side note: I love your background in this video. It works really well and looks great! Maybe move your reviews to this setup??? Something to maybe consider. Cheers, man!
Already considered! Just moved into a new apartment and this is the new permanent backdrop.
@@themetalmeltdownofficial hell yeah man, it really looks great and congrats on the new place!
Great video. Well said, nice one 🤘
I'll never apologize for listening to good music by problematic people (not that these 2 are necessarily any "good"). But I will also never go out of my way to support them financially or feel bad for stealing their music.
Over a year later
Did anyone expect any different from Iced Earths singer? Like the lyrics to their music spell this shit out pretty clearly, the dude is as maga as it gets
I love you,dude...i freaking love you.
I'm not going to stop listening to the Judas Priest albums that the late Dave Holland played on because he was convicted of trying to rape one of his drum students(although Dave maintained his innocence). I still listen to my Emperor albums despite Faust killing a gay man. Okay Samoth burnt down a church too, but....
Alexa play "Without Judgement" by Death
Good video 🤘🤘🤘🤘
I’m with ya 100%. There is no black or white to these situations. Personally, i never cared for either of these artists, but they absolutely should be held accountable.
I don’t condone what either one did, but I can separate the music from the artist. I don’t sit there fixating on what these guys do in their personal lives while listening to music...that to me is just odd.
Mainly, I said it was cancer because I think the movement sets a bad precedent. I think art should be free. Whether people resonate with it is another point entirely, but art should be able to be whatever the artist wants it to be. The idea of cancel culture is a threat to that freedom. Oh I can't say that in my lyrics, I'll get cancelled. Oh I can't have a native American ritual on my album art, that's considered cultural appropriation and I'll get cancelled. Etc etc. Maybe this isn't a big problem now, but if that cancel culture mindset continues to multiply and spread, then it will be destructive to art as a whole. You're right in saying that this isn't a black and white issue, I just err on the side of it being closer to black than white.
Honestly with the iced earth case yep jon should be held accountable since well we have evidence that he attacked the capitol
Yeah thats a pretty open and shut case lmao
I really loved his work from his most recent 3 albums, with the Pale Emperor being my favourite album from the modern manson.
Holy Wood is still a great album and one I got back to a lot.
But since this controverse, I can't listen to him anymore.
It is hard because he did things I am very against as a human being.
I am okay with people still listening and enjoying it. But for me it is impossible to listen to his work.
I got a lot of cd's here, and his cd's are now in a box somewhere because of this.
Ouch, when i wrote that comment i didn't know the news exactly, i just thought its another attempt at canceling someone because of some stupid thing he said in the past. Granted, now i know the news, and i feel ashamed for saying something this stupid, if the allegations are really true, then Manson doesn't deserve to be just cancelled, he needs to be charged for those things, and put behind bars. I Don't know what much else to say, other than i just wanna slap myself from 5-6 days ago.
Do you study taxonomy or biology? (Very nice specimens behind you). I have some marine mammals and amazon fish skeletons at my home back in Brazil. My research topic involves marine ecology/the global impact of fisheries on biodiversity...that is why I am askin. About the topic you are talking about - well, internet is very poisonous my friend - keeping a mental health requires being able to filter a lot all the shit from it. This cancel culture sucks indeed. Like a lot of stuff out there...but anyways...we all need to do our part if we want to change anything. Cheers.
No I'm a chef, my girlfriend is just really into taxidermy and spooky shit ahaha
@@themetalmeltdownofficial oohh man that is amazing. Taxidermy is very interesting indeed. Also, saw your masterpieces at IG!!! Just...wow....I love cooking too, sometimes I cook for charity here in Scotland, Brazilian food...people love it. I take cooking very seriously, it is science!! Anyways, well done folks!!
One of my favorite albums of all time is The Glorious Burden by Iced Earth. And I still enjoy it. However after Schaffer showed how “patriotic” he could be it certainly opened my eyes to how jingoistic that album is. Let alone the 32 minute epic “Gettysburg” doesn’t have the words “slave” or “slavery” mentioned once. And now I know why because usually someone with those politics say the Civil War was fought for “state’s rights.” Despite its flaws (“…their cause is just.”) I still enjoy the how the song is composed and the day by day breakdown of the battle.
For the record I view myself as a Libertarian Socialist. Shorthand for the government is great at running some things and should run others while they also should stay the fuck out of other dealings. I’m pro first amendment and go by the old standard you can speak your mind and I won’t stop you from doing so and I expect you to defend my right to call you an asshole when I disagree with your stances. As for “cancel culture,” it is another example of the left not being able to market their ideas. Like I’m anti-racist but I can see how the term Black Lives Matter can be turn people off. Or how the term Defund the Police sounds like advocating anarchy when reallocating police funds for mental health and demilitarizing the police are great ideas. Cancel culture suffers from having some of the worst people throwing it around whenever the slightest thing triggers them. Though I believe if someone does something against your morals or is a criminal that you have the right to stop supporting them. It’s just with social media nowadays everyone has to announce their intentions when it used to be people did this quietly. Being for the First Amendment means I’m anti-censorship so what those people created and will create in the future has the right to exist but we live in a free market and have the right to exercise our opinions with our wallets.
Dude never considers that ERW is lying. So weak. He literally accused MM of thought crimes.
Is this a channel for homosexual metal fans? Just asking.
Not sure why it would matter if it was but ok
@@themetalmeltdownofficial That is why you fail.
Lol ok, stay mad snowflake
Cancel Culture.. uh oh.. those words are forbidden!
CZcamsr Colonel Kurtz has done a fine job in questioning the multiple allegations against him.
Tbh people are so inside the scene they forget mainstream Conservatives still think metal is satanic, and Liberals think its about mudering women.
I agree with pretty much everything you say here. Cancel culture is effective in having pieces of shit be held accountable for their actions, however there are instances where people completely jump the gun or just plaster claim after claim that take away from the actual problems at hand. Again, as you say, a very complicated grey area.
For me, when it comes to supporting artists who do shitty things, there are instances where I will vow to never listen to their music again i.e. Iced Earth. Then there are instances where one member of a band did something soooo fucked up, but was immediately discharged from the band and replaced and will be just a speed bump on the band's overall history; this being Karl Logan formerly of Manowar, to which I hope he rots in prison where he belongs. And that goes with saying that there are a select number of Manowar lyrics that make me go "yikes" and not in a good way (see Hail and Kill).
I understand cancel culture to a point. I've argued about with people on both sides of the issue. While I understand that people who committed vile acts throughout history shouldn't be glorified, I also believe that if we don't learn from history than we doomed to repeat it. With cancel culture trying to remove every trace of something it leaves nothing to learn from. You don't have to hold people up to be glorified, but we shouldn't erase them neither because we learn from our mistakes, or other's mistakes.
Cancel culture like Christians have been doing to rock since the Beatles or twisted Sister going to congress or just more recently?
I think that both things can be true. Yes, an artist can be wildly influential and can change your life through their works. They can also commit atrocities like rape, murder, etc. It's then up the individial to decide whether they can support that artist either in spirit or in a financial sense. And to the people crying "censorship" but who also love to sing the praises of the free market...well, you can't have it both ways. First off, a record label dropping their artist is NOT censorship. It's a decision that the record label made in order to please fans.
For myself, Iced Earth and Demons & Wizards are still great bands. Do I think Jon is a turd? Absolutely. Same with DeathSpell Omega, Burzum, etc. Also, Jon Schaefer hadn't even voted in 12 years! What a fucking tool.
Honestly, dude actively commited an act of treason in the name of somebody he didn't even vote for.
Imo Manson’s job is a fucking privilege not a right. If he breaks the law he should be held accountable
When it comes to Manson I will support his music but if he is guilty then I won't listen to their music anymore
lol i like razorfist xD
mechanical animal!! cool i still have my original copy from 98, artists that i liked as a teen or early years need to capsulate in that time, because most artists are either dead or irrelevant ... i couldnt listen to Pantera cause of Phils act,,,but i realized Dime and Vinny music and legacy, are way more important then some crap phil did
The worst part of cancel culture is the endless complaining about it
You offered a very balanced view of cancel culture. Now me, I'm all for cancel culture - as long as the right (or should I say wrong) people are being canceled. I say fuck yes, cancel Manson and Shaefer and Varg. But here's the thing about cancel culture, and you briefly touched on it toward the end of the video: both sides do it. The right cries about how the left cancels people, but they do it too. There's the example you gave, the Dixie Chicks. But a better example is Manson. Sure, it's the left who are canceling him now, but for two decades, it was the right.
When the right canceled him, it was for blasphemy, and really, who fucking cares? I don't give a good goddamn what he thinks of Jebus. But now the left is canceling him for abusing women - definitely a good reason to cancel an artist. Or look at Bill Cosby or Louis CK - both sexually abusive, and deserving of everything they've gotten and more. But I don't favor canceling them for some bullshit reason, like their opinions hurt my feelings. It's what they did to other people that earned them cancelation, and the career death that comes with it.
Come on man! Razorfist is bae.
He's not so bad. If people actually watch his video I think they'd be surprised at how his opinions actually run the gamut. Definitely don't agree with him or his approach all of the time, but he's hardly just some edgelord.
He's... fine. Every once in a while he highlights some cool underground tunes, but DAMN he is so obnoxious and pretentious at times.
@@themetalmeltdownofficial True
@Logan Stueck His metalmythos segments are great, I just don't like his political views. I won't watch his political rants but I'll always tune into his mythos stuff
Nobody should be cancelled coz we are all humans and we all do some fucked up stuff that doesn’t make us proud. Life is fucking life. This is my take. Fuck the ones that think they are better than others. Screw them! If Manson did what he allegedly did then it will hit him hard. It’s that simple. It’s sad but it’s true. But cancelling is a joke. A dark one!
The most annoying part when it comes to iced earth is that people now like them because "storming the capital is so fucking metal" with these chuds it was never about the music just the theatrics of being the biggest edgelord.
gIVE US ANOTHER pMRC HEARING OR NO FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND PRESS
Never liked manson after i saw him kick live john 5 in the face for no reason can see why he quit years ago and manson for me ben way overrated for me.
Wanted to say it was a youtube video.
Jon Schaffer was one of my favorite guitarists in Powet Metal, but I can’t just overlook the facts. He should’ve be removed from the metal world entirely because he did shit that doesn’t fly with me and that is causing violence. I’ll miss Demons And Wizards but in the end, I’ll get over it. I’ll still listen to both the older stuff from Demons and Wizards and Iced Earth but I won’t be supporting his endeavors in the future.
As for Manson, I don’t know what to say except... I just hope that Manson is at least punished for this stuff. That’s all Ima say.
Jon`s 1 of my favorite Guitarists as well & honestly what he did does not change my mind about him,my political views are different from his but i knew his political views for a long time & i still support his great music past present & future,with all those people saying they arent fans anymore they clearly never listened to the lyrics or heard his Sons of liberty project.But from 1 fan to another dont let what he did change your mind about the music .
I find it concerning that people cry about the supposed insurrection and call it "domestic terrorism" but then turn a blind eye to the ongoing terrorism that is being carried out by BLM and Antifa... You don't get to make exceptions for one or the other simply because one side supports political ideas that you like.
Can’t hate on razor fist tho man cmon
Actually we can, he is a dishonest conservative hack
C O P E
Yes we can. He's a metal elitist and a Trump worshiper.
Manson and Iced Earth have always sucked. Now they're just worse.
i have, a few questions about the alleged accusations because, of a few, alleged accusations, about you. in the background of your video. and . bears. im sorry to say.
The fuck are you talking about lmao