React's becoming a bit weird...
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- čas přidán 15. 01. 2024
- ReactJS is still THE most popular frontend JavaScript library in 2024. And it's continuing it's push to help with building fullstack applications (instead of standalone client-side SPAs) - just as I also already mentioned last year in my "State of React 2023" video.
But it also became a bit weird ...
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I agree with Max. It is great to see frameworks like Next.js, but it should be up to the developer to chose which way of using react fits the needs.
Luckily, there is Vite who are doing an amazing job at keeping the React SPA universe still alive and with new bundle features
+1, Monopoly is bad
I agree too. The same shit goes in NextJS after adding "pages" and now I should create api folder inside it :D
API folder inside PAGES folder. Good choice guys! :D
You have an Update in NEXT JS 14 , no you use APP folder , It's crazy now need to refactor all code , but It's good, better working on 3g network because of Partial rendering xD@@jambul.jakhaia
It's so damn annoying that I'm learning NExt JS, on my side projects. I wait a year without updating it, then nothing works anymore. Next JS is like 15 versions ahead of my repo, next auth is now auth.js. It's ridonculous.
NextAuth is...rough.
its fucking ridiculous how unstable this shit is
Version lock your code then it won't break without updating it. If it is breaking it means you're simply pulling whatever is the latest. Unless I missed something NextJS specific which I don't use.
Best decision is to not use next is unless the job requires it 😊
I wish VUE was the most poular especially since version 3. It's just sooo nice to work with
Vue was my frontend library and I used to love it. Now I hate it with passion. SolidJS is the best.
@@DemanaJaire both are trash
Which are having more jobs globally react or angular or vuejs?
@@coderprakash react
@@coderprakashreact
It's a cluster**** should have just stuck with the idea that it's a client side only lib. All this SSR gets more complicated and hairy every year.
The only reason they push SSR is because they make money on server computation, CSR was and is the future.
Yeah, to me Next.js feels like going back to ASP Classic
@@NovacificationI know. It's just sad to work with react and start working with next..
@@ivan.jeremic The fact so few people mention that bothers me tremendously
I like how core React is simply about the UI being a function of your data and state. It's up to other frameworks like NextJS, Remix to solve the other aspects of full stack application development.
Yeah exactly, the best way to learn react these days is to start up a react vite project, add your router, learn about hooks, state management. And after doing all that choose a framework, any react framework should be easy for you. You can also switch between different frameworks based on your project requirements.
After wandering in nextjs but wanting to use fastapi, finally I am doing this. Much cleaner and easier to learn.
About a year ago I heard some of the react devs on a podcast talking about huge changes to overhaul react & make it a full stack, server side rendering competitor to nextjs but nothing seems to have materialised. Mind you it was only about a year ago that their doc site's tutorial changed from class based as the default to hook based so I don't think meta cares as it's not a commercial product.
It's difficult because I consider myself a mern stack dev but whenever I'm doing any big or commissioned projects I end up using nextjs which means I have little to showcase my raw react skills.
I liked it slightly more when React hooks were introduced. Overall, though, I've never understood the hype around React
I started using React back in 2015 and have always loved it for being a standalone library. However, I can't deny how fun it has been to use it in the latest verisions of Next.js.
I do hope to see React Forget makes its monumental release, likely as React 19.
As we see here, Angular learns from react about the standalone component. And React learn from Angular about the organized framework standard (for scaling production app). It is all great for us now having both excellent web app frameworks keep getting better and better.
I've spent years doing Angular and Vue trying to get into React because of how popular it is and how many jobs passed me over because of lack of experience. I finally landed a job with React and I'm not impressed. 😅
I'm also the same, only thing I like about react is JSX and hooks. But in angular I love me my router guards, pipes, dependency injection and the fact that everything is the same in every project
+1
+1
Because there is nothing to be impressed by. React "I'm not a framework, I swear" is just a cumbersome spaghetti factory and introduced and successful ly sold us classes as the devil, while relying on gross and inefficient techniques and libraries like redux that overcomplicated web development to the max.
why your not impressed ?
Wondering what the support for React and other backend frameworks is which you hardly ever hear mentioned. How well does React integrate with backend frameworks such as .net, Django or even Rails? My focus is .NET and creating a project is much different with a .NET Framework compared to.Next.js. I ask because it almost feels as if React is well suited for Next.js but I don't hear much about the support with other backend frameworks so much? Just curious, fairly new to the tech, thanks!
Htmx course let's go :D
I’ve been developing web apps in various stacks for about 25 years now, and what goes around, comes around. We’re back to SSR but with SPA characteristics and UX. I watch the discussions out there and a lot of devs seem to feel like Next pushes Vercel services too hard, and we’re sort of being forced into doing business with them. I think a lot of people feel like Facebook was a better ward of the project than having so many cooks in the kitchen. I’ve been using React since the start and have invested a great deal of time into it. When I see rumblings like this, it’s usually about the time a technology is displaced by something newer and better. Maybe that’s something like web components + HTMX, Svelte, Lit, or something even more radical. WASM? Anyhow, it’s too bad the JS universe never seems to mature. It has made things much more complicated than they have to be.
I digress a bit. I also feel like React is taking a very sharp and shaky turn to a whole new paradigm but the key is to understand that all these additions to full stack react frameworks DON’T endanger the creation of SPAs. You can perfectly spin up a Vite + React front end and whichever backend you want and be perfectly good to go. If you don’t care about RSC, you can keep doing your stuff as usual.
Also, there are new things coming too to classic React like the ‘use’ hook, so it’s still very valid to consider a SPA and keeping things simple.
Just people be easy with their FOMO and don’t stress too much about it.
vercel destroyed react with that stupid nextjs changes
we as developer need to stop their madness
@@ehm-wg8pd you can't. sadly. web development is doomed.
they dont develop, they just fast patch new things without asking devs
Picked up Vue last year and haven’t looked back
Very intuitive and solid APIs
Hi Max, I totally agree with what you are saying. Even I always start teaching first about React Essentials because that's the base. But again heading to Full Stack, React made a good choice to tie up with frameworks like Next.JS
A few years ago we were tossing up between React and Vue for our admin panel SPA. I'm so glad we went with Vue. They're giving both Nuxt and vanilla SPAs equal love.
Vue is much better, so many simping for React only because they never tried something else.
@@user85937 vue is shit
@@user85937 no, i worked in react then in vue and vue is much worse
@@user85937 I like react because of react native. For simple admin panels, I use react vite and if we need ssr, i rather choose nuxt/svelte kit over next.
Yes for fresh use its difficult to choose fresh react or with framework
Haven't done anything with React for years and need it for a class now. Went to the website and was really confused about them pushing all the frameworks. I just want to refresh my knowledge of plain react, then move onto a framework. Don't want to have to learn a framework on top of react.
It's so hard to learn React now, there's just too much going on all the time, a complete lack of coherence. Vue and Svelte are a joy to work with, unfortunately, they aren't as popular
The path that I've been using react since last year is more like in the way of the remix, but instead of going to the framework, we opt-in to router-dom v6 with react query, having all the benefits proposed to remix, but still being a SPA/vite with more power on the house.
I mean: it's not always that you need a fullstack, and next/remix frameworks proposal doest make sense from a point of view of being simple, easily readable, and where you could aggregate jr devs to your team in a simple and easy way, and adding value without the knowledge barrier from those framweworks.
That's what works to us here at work, and also for my friends. We even started EruptionJS to keep this boilerplate open to others to benefit from. Cuz right know, I very much agree with Max: react is weird atm.
I agree that having to learn react together with a framework is not very good idea as you will not know what is really react and what is framework additional hence moving to new framework would be harder, I also noticed it when the docs were not recommending starting with create-react-app anymore
I used NextJS for one of my hobby project and I hated it, I switched to vanilla React and it went well, I think I'm gonna start learning Angular
angular is an abomination, better try something like solidjs
Never did much React, but after Angular, Vue and Nuxt, I think I don't need to start. It's just insane amount of boilerplate and doesn't seem maintainable at all like Angular. Nuxt is excellent as well, much simpler to use than Angular and has no problems like React does.
Thank you Max, always informative and awesome!
They have 15 (from Meta) + 3 (from Vercel) people working on react currently. It's hard to develop a library that could be used in various environments (web, native). They just want to make sure everything's polished and stable, before releasing the next stable version
Max, it seems that picking a framework after becoming strong in React fundamentals would be wise? It also seems next.js is the most popular framework, so if one wants a job then perhaps that's a good choice?
Very logical choice
NextJS has quickly become the dominant version of React in use today. If you want to work in full-stack development, learn JS and React first, and NextJS next.
@@coherentpanda7115 Should probably learn Node and/or some Node framework too. But there are many many many backend frameworks you can also learn, but should learn at least ONE of them if you want to do anything fullstack. You can get some psuedo fullstack features with something like Next, but writing your own real backend is beneficial in many ways and this may be something a potential employer would want you to do for a "fullstack" job.
Very good points. Me personally, I still use standalone-React exactly in my largest projects for these exact reasons: I don't want to be locked in in NextJS for example. Especially because NextJS is changing pretty rapidly...
Cool video like always. Just one question came up when listening: React's team wants to release more so called canary versions of React, where some features are stable but rely on unstable features. But how can a feature be stable if it relies on unstable features.. 🤔 Or did I misunderstand? (5:50 min)
So... What would be the best path to migrate large scale projects already made in react to one of these frameworks? Or just leave them by their own without new features? Just as it happened with Angular js and Angular 2?
There comes a point where the cost+risk of an update equals or exceeds the cost+risk of a total rewrite
You just need to spot when that point appears. Total rewrites usually involve dropping some features, adding some new features. End result (if it works out) is you either lose your job, or hit it out the park with something orders of magnitude better than the original
React is legacy.
I have a question: Is it necessary to have prior knowledge of React before diving into Next, or can I start learning Next directly?
Yeah it's necessary. Nextjs is a react framework.
so you need to learn react concepts
@@halcyonramirez6469 Alright, Thanks ;)
you made a good point here. It has lots of features which cannot be used if React is used as just a package in a frontend project. I think lots of people didn't notice this because they are using NextJS even if there are separate backends. At least that is the reason for me.
Vercel will destroy React! People were so happy with React. After Vercel hiring all the React devs, ssr suddenly became so important to them. Great marketing to sell Vercel servers!
Hi Max bro How are you? Can Next js replace Node js in the future? What do you think about it?
Next runs on node
@@flogginga_dead_horse4022 Understandable thank you bro!
both are 2 different things, one cannot replace other.
I do agree that for a beginner it's best to learn react by itself and not try to tie it to a full-stack, batteries included framework like nextjs. For this we have to thank Vite for making a lean, standalone version of react. CRA is too bloated and riddled with many vulnerabilities to be usable now.
As for RSCs, some professional feedback I get regarding them are most companies aren't bothered by it and are definitely not transitioning to nextjs anytime soon. Some have even considered switching to other stacks like TALL or htmx if react continues acting "weird" like you said.
as someone coming from backend (java ) I appreciate the direction react is taking. this is the same direction spring took with springboot .the only difference is that spring and springboot are both maintained by the same company. React has overgrown fb and given the many companies depending on it , it will always be difficult for beginners to get onboard so nextjs can do the uplifting of what springboot is doing and once you outgrow the defaults you can now dig deep into the react itself and work your way out.
its totally different to spring boot....as not only does nextjs increase complexity, it also needs you to know about react before diving in...its the other way around.
I don't agree with this though@@parthjain0
@@austinegwa9393 care to explain?
Web Designer with a lot of coding experience. Looking to learn React due to the salary potential. Do I sharpen the design skills or do I take a deeper dive in React?
You can use your designer skills in code. The only difference is that instead of using Photoshop, you are using code to flesh out your design. I suggest you learn how to code so you know when and where to apply your design skills.
I am doing the same with Vue.
Right to the point! React become a library that can only be used in nextjs. Its not as open as it was. I am worried.
Server Components is not “a feature” of react - it’s an expression “use clients” for runtimes to decide in which context (browser, smartphone, server, terminal) etc they want to run it on. An API extension or plugin interface if you will. It’s like saying json should provide a json server, because they introduced a field to the schema.
I am building an App on Nextjs 14 with App Router and sometimes I wish I would have used Vite because I really dont need any server side stuff when building out a totally dynamic App instead of a mostly static website with less user interaction. One point is shallow routing. I dont want a page refresh when switching routes.
I liked react when it was react + maybe another framework,
Started hating it when it turned react via framework.
In my opinion the way React Server Component and Next.js Server Actions works is even more strange compared to things like Qwik and HTMX.
React also has react native for mobile development and electron for desktop so i see it as a library, not a framework
Exactly why I am finally learning react. It also has react vr. I want to use python framework on the backend.
Take Angular and be happy 🙂
That’s the worst one
@@harshpatel105you spelled the best one wrong
Angular sucks badly 😂😂
Agree. Angular is by far the better framework.
I think it's a good thing that the pace of releases has slowed down. I mean, isn't it working OK right now? 😅 The only thing I would LOVE to see from React team is React Forget compiler which I think is going to be a huge shift and make React a near perfect library.
Now imagine you work with react-native which is based on React and on top of that it is fuck*d up 2x per year by new releases of iOS and Android cores. So you got 3-4 new "stable" versions of RN that you can enjoy for.... well... 3 months (if you really want to stay up to date, like some maintainers expect you to do). Which is something between impossible and annoying AF to do.
How come there is no MVC framework for Node with React?
NestJS ?
@@dawidgrden2227 I don't think NextJs is regarded as an MVC framework
i thing instat of creating servers components, they should just create server render engine, this solution it's used by others technology and work pretty well
I'm the lead developer at a small company and I've been trying to move away from such heavy reliance on any JS frameworks, including React/Next.
To what exactly? NextJS makes our small company's development far easier and faster than anything before it, and I couldn't imagine any reason to move away from it until something better come around.
What exactly does that look like? Are you making your code more modular to allow the logic to be easily transferred over to another framework should it become necessary?
Max, what do you think of Flutter for Web as the 'next React" ?
In our company, BE in .NET and FE in React work great. Next.Js is no-go for us. If Next.Js was mandatory for React, we would have to switch to .NET + Angular or Blazor.
There are certain advantages and drawbacks of meta framework dependant approach. I think the biggest drawback is newcomers might be having difficulties to learn React. This may not be a huge deal today but React’s lifespan will be shortened in long term. I think RSC does not bring a huge advantage for taking that kind of risk.
After 2 years working with nextjs, i had to do a project on react and man it was painful,
I think React as a library focused on building SPAs is incredible (same feeling for a large part of its ecosystem).
That being said, I don't like this move from the core team to address backend stuff with RSC.
If your company is 100% in JS, this might make sense. Otherwise, if for various reasons your company uses other languages, it is strange to see a client-side library changing focus in this way.
Backend capabilities can be (and are) provided by many different JS frameworks. Why would the core React team put their efforts into backend features instead of putting those efforts into making React SPA better and simpler? In that regard Vue looks much more consistent with its original goals.
This modern (and complex) SSR movement makes me think if a considerable amount of applications wouldn't be better served if using a simpler approach, using other programming languages in the backend and libraries like Unpoly, Hotwire, Alpine or HTMX in the frontend.
Furthermore, given that React (in some ways) is becoming Next.js (Vercel), and many startups are going all-in on this boat, it seems that in a few years the industry will face massive vendor lock-in.
React is changing things just for the sake of it to make the developers maintaining it feel important. There's no point in going back and forth between client and server rendering. If people decide that it's not ideal to have everything ssr in idk 2 years or so you'll have "new react" being the same it was a year ago today.
Everyday i get more convinced that svelte is the best choice
If only we could convince corporate America so it could be used for work
in about 3 months time, there will be something "better"
Even svelte is slowly starting to look like React
To be a dependency of popular frameworks is a way to assure longevity to React, whithout releasing any official improvements.
I am curious what kind of feedback you may be hearing from people who are newbies or just getting started in trying to develop. Wonder if they notice the changes, as something that detracts from their ability to "on-ramp" to the frontend development space in a reasonable amount of time. Maybe they don't notice it at all?
Hi max
max is always great to teach
I am yet to understand the main advantage of a server component. I dont know of any application that does not need user interactions and you cant do this with server component. You have to make it use client which then is really no different with a reactjs component. This i understand is the main advantage of Next over react. Second, SEO is important mostly for websites not really applications. And even a website needs user interaction (mostly) so it will mostly use client. I jist don't get the hype over server components. Does anyone?
I don't understand what the problem is
I think things will be better after they launch the compiler react forget
So what's your take on this Max is this a bad thing?
Great summary
What about react-native?
Expo framework
Max, it looks like it's time for you to write a new Next.js Concepts book for Packt in 2024. 😂😂😂😂. Perhaps even include chapters to work with Stripe API in latest JavaScript.
So now who is paying the developer's payroll is Vercel?
Valid concerns (implied) raised here, and it's a definite concern for me w/ how in bed react is w/ vercel/nextjs. More than anything else, this could be what drives me away from using React.
It did. I got tired of the constant changes in next
Imho this entire movement towards next.js and hype around it was a very wrong turn... Now you just have server components and client components, so instead of concentrating on your app architecture you are now just trying to make frameworks happy and spending most of the time just so server & client components composition works. Even if composing them sometimes makes no sense at all...
So we now have a framework built on top of framework (yes I know react is more a library, not a framework, but you got the idea, right?)
Let alone next.js trend to include "canary" non production ready things...
It's probably a good time to look into smth like vue or svelte.
Use Preact instead as a single library?
PreactJS feels dead. 🤷🏾♂️
Hi, Sir with real-time projects there are no courses jest React unit test cases with in-depth knowledge. So Can you please do one course on udemy sir will learn from u please....
looks like no other features than server components are being added to react which are usable to a standalone app thats why the devs are not doing big releases.
React Server Components require a framework. Thus it should be referred as NextJS Server Components.
The official documentation’s recommendation to start with a framework makes zero sense.
To use Next, you gotta have a good understanding of React, but the React docs recommends to start learning React by using Next. A literal catch 22 😂😂
What's your opinion on AI making programmer obsolete ? are you in the camp that it will destroy a lot of jobs all across the market, just in the junior realm or it will be a plus value to make programmer more productive ? Are you afraid of it and do you feel it's a good time to learn programming in 2024 or that boat as sail ?
no way, Codeium and Github Copilot with Linter were breeze for developer since AI and auto complete assists and write code that you want. even refactoring code or catching bugs on AI still need to be supervised
Canary is pronounced like the bird. A canary release is named for the old mining trick of taking a canary into the coal mine. If poisonous gasses escaped, the canary would succumb sooner than the miners, thus warning them of the danger. A canary release can warn you of impending dangers of doing a full-scale production release.
I really like react, but I dont think it's the best path for React. Let's see how long it lasts just because of its name. There's a lot of interesting competition out there like Svelte, Solid or even Vue, and Angular (that's trying hard to become more attractive).
Im rebuilding our entire app at work with React and chose not to go with a framework.
if your app requires backend integration better go with next. I have faced this our SPA app became so big because of so many dependencies.
I dont see this as a problem, I do not foresee needing alot of dependencies to hit a node server. I do it right now in our vanilla JS app with 0 dependencies using the native fetch api @@s_k_47
I always thought SPA trend is not wise. It was usefull to develop office 365 but should not be used for most websites.
What react team does, makes sense.
Next JS makes sense, it is great. Why would you use pure react.
You can use client components only when it makes sense.
I think there is nothing bad about it. React is used and gonna be used for many, many years to come. Even if another new genius framework would appear it would still take a lot of time and effort to switch to it. Market is full of React job offers and still looks good. Until we see in some point in time a gigantic shift to some new or existing framework, React still would reign and give a solid job opportunity. Just relax and keep using/learning React 🤟🏻
Nothing but facts
Agreed, I was just working on an app that is used by some top companies that runs with Extjs 3.4 and react 14.
Learn to do vanilla js first proficiently.
Well, react JS is still a library, and people for that reason love it
I don't think react changed, it just provides interfaces and let's others extend the featureset based on that. What has changed is that these metaframeworks take care of a lot of things that are mandatory for state of the art application development anyways (people new to programming are just unaware of it). Whoever chooses not to use those can still pick and choose third party libraries as he used to, although it makes little sense. If I don't like nextjs I choose something else e.g. sveltekit or qwik city.
Regarding the learning I agree that you should get your hands dirty with the individual pieces before going to application development but that holds true for any library or framework you use in your codebase. People just need to put in the work/hours to gain experience and stop crying. I often setup small code examples or side projects as PoCs.
htmx is the way to go
We’ll get a new framework or library that solves this problem pretty soon and react will be of the past. It’ll be a library or framework that just does what we already do with react and next together. I really love react but I might not mind something new
Max, what is the best choice for React dev who wants to become full stack ?
Next.js or Node.js or both ?
both
you know, every js framework gets weirder and weirder and eventually gets replaced by something else shiny new. This is a fantastic tradition in js.
How dare you create a react video with Angular mug in the backend 🤣😜😯
one line summary: framework dependency rather than a standalone library
Kind of like Svelte and SvelteKit
Do you mean that the focus on SvelteKit killed Svelte? I think that is very far from the truth. Development on Svelte 5 is heavily underway and apparently it will bring some great new features to the table.
And don't forget that SvelteKit is not just a full-stack framework, but an app-generating toolkit that is freely configurable: Upon initial setup you can basically decide if you want to build a full-stack app, a pure SPA, a server-side-only static site generator or a library (I have tried the first three and it worked brilliantly). So it doesn't force you to go full-stack, but if you want to, it gives you tons of tools to do so very efficiently.
I for one love it and appreciate greatly that they left Sapper behind and pushed SK instead. My only criticism of SvelteKit is that they released the 1.0 without any first-party i18n support and it is still missing to this day.
Btw, I really hope Max will update his Svelte course soon, ideally shortly after Svelte 5 and the related SK version get released. That framework really deserves more love, imo.
Using React by itself was, for the sake of creativity and innovation, a chaotic mess. 10 different state management solutions. 10 different ways to do css. npm libraries being unmaintained or becoming incompatible and needing replacements. NPM libraries with 20K stars but they were old legacy stars. Subsequent React releases making your code very old very quickly. CRA difficulties. Craco hacking. Excessive React-typescript pain... NextJS is better. IMHO, the door is wide open for Sveltekit or other.
react owes vercel a lot... there server components feature almost destroyed nextjs. even now, if nextjs is not careful it could go down with those react experiments. react has no choice but to fully walk with nextjs untill they are out of this mess. with that said, react is still king
There is something to say about accessibility though. Ract with Nextjs is a lot easier to get going than trying to patch together a bunch of different packages around react on its own.
I agree with this. But it seems like the dev culture and mindset of React is not along these lines which is sad. This is not about forcing them but an argument on the utilitarian side since this is a tool for devs and working for dev ergonomics has value. Being able to use advances in React without being forced into frameworks is a big thing. I maybe wrong but such a strategy is somewhat anti-opensource. I am subscribing now to support your voice
Even more flexibility than before, that a good news.
frontend situation (and basically web development as a whole) last couple of years is just one big clusterfuck and leads f****** nowhere. if I could rewind my career choices, I would never ever go into web development, and especially not specialize in frontend.
You probably are not good at javascript. That's the problem with everyone, they jump right into frameworks after learning some basic javascript syntax
React is a mess or messy. It's using a dump truck as a taxi, you can do it but have to carry a mess