You could have both kinds of compound plurals. If a compound word is "old" enough, it could get re analyzed as a non compound word and get a 'normal' plural by analogy
24:18 interestingly, that's the opposite of what happened in Japanese. There, the older class are ⁓i adjectives, which are definitely verb like. When they directly modify nouns in a sentence, they always use the base ⁓i form, but when they act as a predicate, they take pretty much all of the verb morphology, including tense (and use no copula). The newer class is ⁓na adjectives. They're basically nouns, followed by ⁓na when directly modifying nouns, or by the copula (da/desu) when acting as a predicate. And the ⁓i adjectives are a closed class, _i.e._ no new words are formed in that class-all new adjectives are noun-like ⁓na adjectives.
i love the idea of a childrens story about an eagle and a lizard, where it starts with the eagle hunting for lizards and in the end he looks for his friend the lizard, or something like that also from a story telling perspective i think 'Avarda qaardah' is perfect, because we tend to (as far as i know) use rhyming starts for oral stories in a lot of human languages Edit: spelling
For compound plurals, it could be one of those things where it's changing in the modern day of the language- historically, both were pluralised (so vahraaskullis would be correct), but as it gets reanalysed as one word seperate from the room words people start pluralising only the head of the word (so people start saying vaharkullis). I imagine older generations correcting younger generations and consider vaharkullis bad grammar, lol. I feel like which one it is depends on whether both elements are analysed individually or not, which I feel like depends on the age of the word, hence why this feels like the logical conclusion to me
Congratulations biblaridion , on finishing episode 14! It may have been a long gradual 3 years but its been well worth it and thanks for the new conlang episode
Also linguistically, redundancy is very useful, like in double marking languages, or how languages often pair agreement with word order to indicate role marking.
19:48 in hindi, all verbs agree in gender in every tense/aspect/mood apart from the subjunctive, while there are many adjectives that are indeclinable. not really a full example, but i still thought it might be interesting :p
i know at one point the language allowed zero copula. Maybe you could derive "noun-like" adjectives by having nouns that stood in the role of a predicate.
I just dreamed about AB 15, but it was just you talking about the ecosystem of an earth swamp/pond. It had some weird animals, especially the versions of crocodiles, snapping turtles, and frogs with backs that look like lilypads as a disguise.
I think japanese does the adjectives describing first and second person pronouns thing. I have heard phrases like "ikutsu mo watashi" (いくつも私) Literally "detestable too I" which means something like "even though I am so detestable" or something like "kirei na anata" (綺麗なあなた) literally "beautiful you" which means, well, what it sounds like. There's even a phrase that goes "kono ore" literally "this I" used by servants or older people too to sound more endearing and reliable (I'm not too sure about the connotations actually but I heard this phrase used a lot in shows, it might be archaic tbf)
Always a pleasant surprise to see an upload! Well done on the extinction thing too! I love all the fan art you're integrating, and can fathom the massive amount of research and time spent on the video.
12:55 with that kind of dilemma, you could solve it by saying a group of dialects pronounced it Plural-singular and a different group starts pronouncing it singular-plural after they get geographically isolated. Iirc the speakers are nomadic so you could have some ice age force a migration event.
That way, the instant you see one method getting too "fiddly", you can retcon that group of people get conquered and eventually culturally concerted into the other group. Like Occitan against French
I'd be really interested to know the literature you researched on the development of participles in PIEuropean languages, I'd like to study it to, if you remember. Also I vote for noun like adjective. I think case agreement sounds awesome. You could maybe come up with different case paradigms for adjectives, like in Germanic and Slavic languages, if you don't want them to be too similar, but I don't think they're too similar anyway.
Love this series and always watch episodes when they come out, worth the wait! So interesting to see your thought process and the things you notice, and lots of stuff to apply to my own langs as well!
the examples of adjectives on pronouns that I know of are the AAE ”ass” construction, as in ”My clumsy ass knocked over every single vase” which is more of a construction using a 3prs body part. Otherwise English has the fringe cases of “Li’l ol’ me” or “Despicable me” of which neither are neutral of implication and tone, but it shows it’s possible
Standard English can do something similar, just using 'self' instead of 'ass'. Usually in phrases that mock one's own lack of (displayed) intelligence or wisdom. And you can actually stack both forms together 'my X arse self'. Once again using an inalienable (if in this case intangible) possesion of the speaker as a third person subject rather than using the speaker themselves as the first person subject.
I like the test sentence,thought I might try it with my conlang Piyowei: Long ago, the hungry eagle was looking for overly sick lizards at the oldest temple on top of the least old volcano. Chuwa tĭno, ai kĕsh zŏn kon dĭvu etŏriliyo bŏnshĕn yĭ i chunda tobidămĭ da i chunda geim go da. Loving your language
don't have my own conlang, but just for fun let's try a complex toki pona sentence: tenpo pini mute a la, waso wile moku li alasa e akesi mute pi jaki mute a lon tomo sewi pi tenpo mute a supa ma sewi seli pi tenpo lili a little bit confusing how "tomo sewi" is god-house/temple and "ma sewi seli" is hot-high-place/volcano, meaning you could interpret it the other way as something like "the old skyscraper on top of the young warm holy site" if you wanted to, but i can't think of an elegant way of clarifying that
I'm working on a whole bunch of languages for my world, and the one I'm mainly focused on is essentially a dwarven language, and watching this series helps me develop ideas for it, any tips on how to research and better understand how languages work
Just because I like rough glossing: Avarda qaardah sitöhrö küülqö sihvëryaanra vak samba küülqö aykëdhëkos ör bayaan tirmëlqa vahriissë qayárak Is something like: Hungry eagle all-unreaching old one-firemountain on-which all-defeating old one-godhouse(-at) was fearfully sicks lizards searched I find doing this does help me understand the grammar better
Sri Lankan Malay has "flexible" adjectives which can fill both nominal and verbal syntactic roles. Could be an intermediate stage for evolving nounlikes from verblikes (although that's not where they come from in Malay).
How did the compounds arise? If it was apposition like "the lizards, the beasts," then it seems both would be plural. If the proto-lang has a concept of allowing nouns to be neither definite nor indefinite, but just generic, like "mankind," and then uses those generic forms as adjectives on the head, then it seems only the head would be plural. I'm sure there are other pathways, but the key question seems to be "What form was the modifier in when it got appended to its head?"
I personally kind of like the idea of both parts of the compound being pluralized, though I think inserting a "-" between the stems would be good in that case.
Actually, what if you made it so that the first part of a compound wouldn't get any classifier marking at all in the proto, and evolve just as the stem alone, so that in the modern day there was some sort of a "short adjectival form" which would later get prefixed onto the following part of the compound? And if the compound is recently-derived, and the first part doesn't have a short form, speakers would just use the nominative or some sort of back-formation.
My conlangs adjectives are simultaneously noun-like and verb-like, in that any adjective A can just be used as a verb meaning "to be A" and also can just be used as a noun, I think meaning "A-ness". In order to mean "one that is A" you have to follow it with a suffix or something, which is a "pronoun" that basically acts like a classifier.
so lizard-beast takes the gender/class of "beast" right? how would you handle a compound between two singular words in different noun classes? scissor-beast or smth. If you normally have to use derivational morphology first to make "scissor" into a compounding compoenent in the same noun class as the base, then that suggests the same behavior would apply in the plural classes. otherwise, it wouldn't. that said, it sounds better to my ear as "vahar-" than "vahris-"
After you do alien languages and (I hope) alien writing systems, the obvious next step is to cover alien Unicode and alien internet protocols 😄😄 Actually, it would be seriously interesting to see alien technical notation, like, how might the alien ways of writing mathematics, chemistry, etc. develop? This is a pretty underexplored topic I think because in human civilisation even though we have a lot of different languages and scripts, mathematical & chemical notation are pretty standardised internationally, but there are lots of different ways you could do this. For instance, what if the functions came after what they modified? Instead of having a^2 + b^2 = c^2 you might get something like a:2^ b:2^ :+ = c:2^ :+. 2^ is a marked version of 2, :+ turns the statement before it into an addition function which takes in another statement and returns another addition function with its "encoded" number being the sum of the two statements. Then you could ask questions like, is this system powerful and concise enough to survive to the point where our alien buddies want to work out the mass of their planet & sun and stuff, or would various pressures cause it to mutate in form/function, and how might that process develop?
terms and conditions (akar-eser / eser-eger) EĞER-ISE = (EVEN-IF) (su AKAR- yel ESER) = water flows - wind blows İSE-EĞER = (IF-EVER) (yel ESER- ekin EĞER)= the wind blows and bows the crops EĞER-ISE and İSE-EĞER constructs are used to specify "conditions" and are often used interchangeably. İSE-EĞER: means "If ever" and indicates a condition that is more likely to occur. "If ever you need any help, just let me know." (Yardıma ihtiyacın olursa eğer, sadece haber ver.) or (Herhangi bir yardıma ihtiyaç duyarsan, bana haber vermen yeterli) “If I'm not tired, we’ll visit them in the evening.” = “Yorgun değilsem eğer akşamleyin onları ziyaret ederiz” EĞER-ISE: means "Even if" and indicates a condition that is less likely to occur. "Even if it rains tomorrow, I will go for a walk." (Yarın yürüyüşe çıkacağım, eğer yağmur yağıyor olsa dahi ) or (Yarın yağmur yağsa bile yürüyüşe çıkacağım.) “Why should i go to work, (even) if I'm not getting my salary” = Eğer maaşımı alamıyorsam, neden işe gideyim ki.
The names of some organs it's used as the suffix for nouns, “Ak”= ~each of both (Yan= side) (Gül= rose) (Şek=facet) (Dal=subsection, branch) (Taş=stone) Yan-ak= each of both sides of the face >Yanak=the cheek Kül-ak = each of both the roses >Kulak= Ear Şek-ak = each of both sides of the forehead >Şakak= temple Dal-ak=dalak= Spleen Böbür-ak=böbrek= Kidney = each of both red-spots / blodfleck Bağça-ak>(Paça-ak)>bacak= Leg (ankle) Batı-ak>pathiak>phatyak>hadyak>adyak)=Ayak= the foot > each of the feet (pati = paw) Taş-ak=testicle Her iki-ciğer.>Akciğer=the lung Tül-karn-ak =that obscures/ shadowing each of both dark/ covert periods= Karanlık (batıni) çağların her birini örten tül Zhu'l-karn-eyn=the (shader) owner of each of both times Dhu'al-chorn-ein=double-horned-one=(the horned hunter)Herne the hunter> Cernunnos> Karneios it's used as the suffix for verbs, “Ak /ek“=a-qa ~which thing to / what’s to… Er-mek = to get / to reach Bar-mak (Varmak)= to arrive / to achieve Er-en-mek > erinmek / Bar-an-mak > barınmak =arrive at one's own Erin-ek / barın-ak = what’s there to arrive at oneself Ernek / Barnak > Parmak = Finger Çiğ=uncooked, raw Çiğne-mek =to chew Çiğne-ek>Çiğneh> Çene = Chin Tut-mak = to hold / to keep Tut-ak=Dudak= Lip Tara-mak = to comb/ ~to rake Tara-ak > Tarak =(what’s there to comb)> the comb Tara-en-mak > taranmak = to comb oneself Taran-ak > Tırnak =(what’s there to comb oneself)> fingernail
You could have both kinds of compound plurals. If a compound word is "old" enough, it could get re analyzed as a non compound word and get a 'normal' plural by analogy
24:18 interestingly, that's the opposite of what happened in Japanese.
There, the older class are ⁓i adjectives, which are definitely verb like. When they directly modify nouns in a sentence, they always use the base ⁓i form, but when they act as a predicate, they take pretty much all of the verb morphology, including tense (and use no copula).
The newer class is ⁓na adjectives. They're basically nouns, followed by ⁓na when directly modifying nouns, or by the copula (da/desu) when acting as a predicate.
And the ⁓i adjectives are a closed class, _i.e._ no new words are formed in that class-all new adjectives are noun-like ⁓na adjectives.
i love the idea of a childrens story about an eagle and a lizard, where it starts with the eagle hunting for lizards and in the end he looks for his friend the lizard, or something like that
also from a story telling perspective i think 'Avarda qaardah' is perfect, because we tend to (as far as i know) use rhyming starts for oral stories in a lot of human languages
Edit: spelling
For compound plurals, it could be one of those things where it's changing in the modern day of the language- historically, both were pluralised (so vahraaskullis would be correct), but as it gets reanalysed as one word seperate from the room words people start pluralising only the head of the word (so people start saying vaharkullis). I imagine older generations correcting younger generations and consider vaharkullis bad grammar, lol.
I feel like which one it is depends on whether both elements are analysed individually or not, which I feel like depends on the age of the word, hence why this feels like the logical conclusion to me
Congratulations biblaridion , on finishing episode 14! It may have been a long gradual 3 years but its been well worth it and thanks for the new conlang episode
alway'z glad 2C new work...
love both series, Fav~ thiz one...
hate 2B greedy, but would love theze more often
(az a ConScipter, though, I get it...)
I prefer the noun like adjectives myself. The mild rhyming can lend itself to some pretty interesting poetic traditions I imagine
Also linguistically, redundancy is very useful, like in double marking languages, or how languages often pair agreement with word order to indicate role marking.
Biblaridion is what happens when Tolkien gets a CZcams account.
Episode 14 was easily the best one worth the wait
I'm more than a bit excited to see the final result of this linguistic masterpiece :)
19:48 in hindi, all verbs agree in gender in every tense/aspect/mood apart from the subjunctive, while there are many adjectives that are indeclinable. not really a full example, but i still thought it might be interesting :p
i know at one point the language allowed zero copula. Maybe you could derive "noun-like" adjectives by having nouns that stood in the role of a predicate.
I just dreamed about AB 15, but it was just you talking about the ecosystem of an earth swamp/pond. It had some weird animals, especially the versions of crocodiles, snapping turtles, and frogs with backs that look like lilypads as a disguise.
I think japanese does the adjectives describing first and second person pronouns thing. I have heard phrases like "ikutsu mo watashi" (いくつも私) Literally "detestable too I" which means something like "even though I am so detestable" or something like "kirei na anata" (綺麗なあなた) literally "beautiful you" which means, well, what it sounds like. There's even a phrase that goes "kono ore" literally "this I" used by servants or older people too to sound more endearing and reliable (I'm not too sure about the connotations actually but I heard this phrase used a lot in shows, it might be archaic tbf)
It didn’t occur to me to mention this in the video, as I’ve long since lost any perception of time, but for what it’s worth: Happy Pride Month!
Don't forget that June is also Men's mental health month ;)
❤🎉
Based! Very epic
Thx
🏳🌈🏳⚧🎉
Always a pleasant surprise to see an upload!
Well done on the extinction thing too! I love all the fan art you're integrating, and can fathom the massive amount of research and time spent on the video.
In the declension of the Latin compound republica, both parts are inflected
12:55 with that kind of dilemma, you could solve it by saying a group of dialects pronounced it Plural-singular and a different group starts pronouncing it singular-plural after they get geographically isolated. Iirc the speakers are nomadic so you could have some ice age force a migration event.
That way, the instant you see one method getting too "fiddly", you can retcon that group of people get conquered and eventually culturally concerted into the other group. Like Occitan against French
I'd be really interested to know the literature you researched on the development of participles in PIEuropean languages, I'd like to study it to, if you remember.
Also I vote for noun like adjective. I think case agreement sounds awesome. You could maybe come up with different case paradigms for adjectives, like in Germanic and Slavic languages, if you don't want them to be too similar, but I don't think they're too similar anyway.
I like the noun-like adjectives for this language personally
Love this series and always watch episodes when they come out, worth the wait! So interesting to see your thought process and the things you notice, and lots of stuff to apply to my own langs as well!
I love these videos, I'm glad they're back :)
the examples of adjectives on pronouns that I know of are the AAE ”ass” construction, as in ”My clumsy ass knocked over every single vase” which is more of a construction using a 3prs body part. Otherwise English has the fringe cases of “Li’l ol’ me” or “Despicable me” of which neither are neutral of implication and tone, but it shows it’s possible
Standard English can do something similar, just using 'self' instead of 'ass'. Usually in phrases that mock one's own lack of (displayed) intelligence or wisdom. And you can actually stack both forms together 'my X arse self'. Once again using an inalienable (if in this case intangible) possesion of the speaker as a third person subject rather than using the speaker themselves as the first person subject.
I like the test sentence,thought I might try it with my conlang Piyowei:
Long ago, the hungry eagle was looking for overly sick lizards at the oldest temple on top of the least old volcano.
Chuwa tĭno, ai kĕsh zŏn kon dĭvu etŏriliyo bŏnshĕn yĭ i chunda tobidămĭ da i chunda geim go da.
Loving your language
don't have my own conlang, but just for fun let's try a complex toki pona sentence:
tenpo pini mute a la, waso wile moku li alasa e akesi mute pi jaki mute a lon tomo sewi pi tenpo mute a supa ma sewi seli pi tenpo lili a
little bit confusing how "tomo sewi" is god-house/temple and "ma sewi seli" is hot-high-place/volcano, meaning you could interpret it the other way as something like "the old skyscraper on top of the young warm holy site" if you wanted to, but i can't think of an elegant way of clarifying that
I'm working on a whole bunch of languages for my world, and the one I'm mainly focused on is essentially a dwarven language, and watching this series helps me develop ideas for it, any tips on how to research and better understand how languages work
In Warlpiri, adjectives are completely indistinguishable from nouns, and only require case agreement marking when the noun phrase is discontinuous.
So glad you’re still making these
Just because I like rough glossing:
Avarda qaardah sitöhrö küülqö sihvëryaanra vak samba küülqö aykëdhëkos ör bayaan tirmëlqa vahriissë qayárak
Is something like:
Hungry eagle all-unreaching old one-firemountain on-which all-defeating old one-godhouse(-at) was fearfully sicks lizards searched
I find doing this does help me understand the grammar better
34:00 fire mountain!!! just like in icelandic eldfjall
Sri Lankan Malay has "flexible" adjectives which can fill both nominal and verbal syntactic roles. Could be an intermediate stage for evolving nounlikes from verblikes (although that's not where they come from in Malay).
Why do I feel like it's been 84 years? ♥
Do you plan on making a guide on logographies? Like how to make one and keep the thousands of characters looking coherent
How did the compounds arise? If it was apposition like "the lizards, the beasts," then it seems both would be plural. If the proto-lang has a concept of allowing nouns to be neither definite nor indefinite, but just generic, like "mankind," and then uses those generic forms as adjectives on the head, then it seems only the head would be plural. I'm sure there are other pathways, but the key question seems to be "What form was the modifier in when it got appended to its head?"
I personally kind of like the idea of both parts of the compound being pluralized, though I think inserting a "-" between the stems would be good in that case.
I like the idea of noun-like adjectives being the original adjectival role but the language is currently been shifting to verb-like adjectives.
Actually, what if you made it so that the first part of a compound wouldn't get any classifier marking at all in the proto, and evolve just as the stem alone, so that in the modern day there was some sort of a "short adjectival form" which would later get prefixed onto the following part of the compound? And if the compound is recently-derived, and the first part doesn't have a short form, speakers would just use the nominative or some sort of back-formation.
yes! Yes! YES! FINALLY!
Let's go ajdabiyavtes
My conlangs adjectives are simultaneously noun-like and verb-like, in that any adjective A can just be used as a verb meaning "to be A" and also can just be used as a noun, I think meaning "A-ness". In order to mean "one that is A" you have to follow it with a suffix or something, which is a "pronoun" that basically acts like a classifier.
Hooray!!!!!
Видео вышло в 3 часа ночи по Бишкекскому времени в 17 июня
so lizard-beast takes the gender/class of "beast" right? how would you handle a compound between two singular words in different noun classes? scissor-beast or smth. If you normally have to use derivational morphology first to make "scissor" into a compounding compoenent in the same noun class as the base, then that suggests the same behavior would apply in the plural classes. otherwise, it wouldn't. that said, it sounds better to my ear as "vahar-" than "vahris-"
Maybe you could have a distinct, classifier-less compounding form, like a stem form
YEAHHHHHHH
Woo conlanging video
❤️
After you do alien languages and (I hope) alien writing systems, the obvious next step is to cover alien Unicode and alien internet protocols 😄😄
Actually, it would be seriously interesting to see alien technical notation, like, how might the alien ways of writing mathematics, chemistry, etc. develop? This is a pretty underexplored topic I think because in human civilisation even though we have a lot of different languages and scripts, mathematical & chemical notation are pretty standardised internationally, but there are lots of different ways you could do this. For instance, what if the functions came after what they modified? Instead of having a^2 + b^2 = c^2 you might get something like a:2^ b:2^ :+ = c:2^ :+. 2^ is a marked version of 2, :+ turns the statement before it into an addition function which takes in another statement and returns another addition function with its "encoded" number being the sum of the two statements. Then you could ask questions like, is this system powerful and concise enough to survive to the point where our alien buddies want to work out the mass of their planet & sun and stuff, or would various pressures cause it to mutate in form/function, and how might that process develop?
terms and conditions
(akar-eser / eser-eger)
EĞER-ISE = (EVEN-IF)
(su AKAR- yel ESER) = water flows - wind blows
İSE-EĞER = (IF-EVER)
(yel ESER- ekin EĞER)= the wind blows and bows the crops
EĞER-ISE and İSE-EĞER constructs are used to specify "conditions" and are often used interchangeably.
İSE-EĞER: means "If ever" and indicates a condition that is more likely to occur.
"If ever you need any help, just let me know." (Yardıma ihtiyacın olursa eğer, sadece haber ver.) or (Herhangi bir yardıma ihtiyaç duyarsan, bana haber vermen yeterli)
“If I'm not tired, we’ll visit them in the evening.” = “Yorgun değilsem eğer akşamleyin onları ziyaret ederiz”
EĞER-ISE: means "Even if" and indicates a condition that is less likely to occur.
"Even if it rains tomorrow, I will go for a walk." (Yarın yürüyüşe çıkacağım, eğer yağmur yağıyor olsa dahi ) or (Yarın yağmur yağsa bile yürüyüşe çıkacağım.)
“Why should i go to work, (even) if I'm not getting my salary” = Eğer maaşımı alamıyorsam, neden işe gideyim ki.
The names of some organs
it's used as the suffix for nouns, “Ak”= ~each of both
(Yan= side) (Gül= rose) (Şek=facet) (Dal=subsection, branch) (Taş=stone)
Yan-ak= each of both sides of the face >Yanak=the cheek
Kül-ak = each of both the roses >Kulak= Ear
Şek-ak = each of both sides of the forehead >Şakak= temple
Dal-ak=dalak= Spleen
Böbür-ak=böbrek= Kidney = each of both red-spots / blodfleck
Bağça-ak>(Paça-ak)>bacak= Leg (ankle)
Batı-ak>pathiak>phatyak>hadyak>adyak)=Ayak= the foot > each of the feet (pati = paw)
Taş-ak=testicle
Her iki-ciğer.>Akciğer=the lung
Tül-karn-ak =that obscures/ shadowing each of both dark/ covert periods= Karanlık (batıni) çağların her birini örten tül
Zhu'l-karn-eyn=the (shader) owner of each of both times
Dhu'al-chorn-ein=double-horned-one=(the horned hunter)Herne the hunter> Cernunnos> Karneios
it's used as the suffix for verbs, “Ak /ek“=a-qa ~which thing to / what’s to…
Er-mek = to get / to reach
Bar-mak (Varmak)= to arrive / to achieve
Er-en-mek > erinmek / Bar-an-mak > barınmak =arrive at one's own
Erin-ek / barın-ak = what’s there to arrive at oneself
Ernek / Barnak > Parmak = Finger
Çiğ=uncooked, raw
Çiğne-mek =to chew
Çiğne-ek>Çiğneh> Çene = Chin
Tut-mak = to hold / to keep
Tut-ak=Dudak= Lip
Tara-mak = to comb/ ~to rake
Tara-ak > Tarak =(what’s there to comb)> the comb
Tara-en-mak > taranmak = to comb oneself
Taran-ak > Tırnak =(what’s there to comb oneself)> fingernail
@@Abeturk I think you meant to respond to a different comment here
I think vaharkullis makes more sense just in my opinion
Day 3 of asking Biblaridion to cover sign languages
Bib, siinsëkërhët sëb këdhisqaan Tënqo-miirös hëytüün? Harat nidhas bardasqas!