Who Are Actually Star Trek's Best and Worst Parents?
Vložit
- čas přidán 2. 06. 2020
- ▶Watch more Trek, Actually videos at: • Trek, Actually
▶Listen to our Trek-themed comedy podcast, The Ensign's Log:
▶RSS: / sounds.rss
▶Soundcloud: / the-ensigns-log-podcast
▶Website: www.lemmelistenpodcasts.com/th...
▶Patreon: / steveshives
▶PayPal: www.paypal.me/SteveShives
▶Twitter: / steve_shives
▶Facebook: / thatguysteveshives
▶Instagram: / steve.shives
Listen to the Late Seating podcast:
▶RSS: / sounds.rss
▶Soundcloud: / late-seating
▶Website: www.lemmelistenpodcasts.com/la... - Zábava
One of Rom's most powerful moments was when he found out that Quark sabotaged Nog's Academy application. He slammed Quark against the wall and threatened to burn the bar to the ground if Quark ever interfered with Nog's happiness again.
That’s when we all learned that when it comes to Nog’s life and happiness; Rom does not f*ck around
Janeway has 3 kids she abandoned to fend for themselves on some planet in the delta quadrant, so horrible mother
That was memorable episode, in fact that Nog wanted so desperately to join Star Fleet because he didn't want end up like Rom, his father.
@@bigfootwalker5399Uh, would you want raise a couple of tadpole like siblings. Janeway and Lt Paris were both altered by Warp field accident when Delta flyer passed Warp 9. They're eventually return to human beings.
@@paulhunter6742 I understand fixing the "Tuvix" mistake, but Paris and Janeway chose that fate!
I would have left them on that planet as lizards to take responsibility for their children.🐸
Icheb’s parents are the worst by far - serving him up as bait for the Borg.
*Designing* him to be a weapon against Borg. They *made* him and raised him with the explicit purpose of having him become assimilated. And then tried *again* to have him assimilated when he was reunited with them.
At least Dukat only *thought* about killing Ziyal once and then actually tries to be in her life.
but he won the lottery with Seven "adopting" him
But Seven was a kind of mother for him - and a good one!
I'm a bit disappointed he didn't mention how Seven of Nine acted as a parent to all the child borg.
And Seven's parents weren't much better!
Sulu's daughter was actually [ahem] introduced in Star Trek Generations onboard the Enterprise-B. She becoming a helmsman like her father might indicate that their relationship was quite healthy.
"Sulu? When did he have time for a family?"
"Well, like you always say, if something's important you make the time."
I now went to rewatch the scene and my guess is that this healthy father-daughter relationship was indeed the interpretation the writers intentionally wanted to convey out of it. First, there's the lines exchanged between Chekov and Demora Sulu: "I'm sure Hikaru must be very proud of you." "I hope so."
But then it even goes on between Kirk and Scotty: "Scotty, it absolutely amazes me." "And what would that be, sir?" "Sulu. When did he find time for a family?" "Well, like you always say, if something's important, you make the time."
So it's not the fact that Sulu just had time to have a daughter. It's about the amazement that he even had time to have an _actual family_. Probably just as intentionally it's left for the viewers to guess how that could even be possible, maybe trying to convey that same feeling of amazement that Kirk has, and ending on a note that it's always all about your priorities, sending Kirk on a short guilt trip about his priorities. But probably not a very long one. Just look at what Kirk imagined for himself in the Nexus: a mountain cabin and his dog.
Also, now that I watched the Nexus part in Generations: that section should cast all doubts aside that Picard was in any way an anti-family person. With power to imagine any reality - just as much happiness as he wanted - for himself, he had one where he had five children. It possibly tries to convey Picard as a person very much willing to have contact with children; he just doesn't know how. In that imagined reality he could overcome those difficulties.
In the novels, Demora Sulu eventually goes on to command the Enterprise-B after Harriman accepts a posting at Starfleet Intelligence (which he later quits after becoming disillusioned, but I forget why). If CBS is still looking for more mini-series ideas, I would not say to that being made canon.
Weird. When I wrote my two replies seen above, I couldn't see the two above comments that also discussed the same things. So if you wonder why I didn't write them as replies to those, that's why. :)
I guess Janeway and Tom Paris are pretty bad, if the children they had while they were lizards count
Salamanders.
I figure they're like sea turtle babies. They don't need parents, and half of them will get eaten by seagulls.
Yeah, I thought Steve was building up to Janeway and Paris during the Voyager segment. I mean, abandoning your children at birth on a planet with no sapient life beats Worf any day.
Yeah, how the hell are those things supposed to survive?
They were definitely abandoned on that planet.
Alexander could have been a great third wheel for Nog and Jake if things had been different.
good point!
I like this idea, and it would solve one of the biggest missed opportunities of the show: Worf confronted with a number of superior fathers who would have shamed him into improvement by simple example.
That would have been awesome. More than a few seasons worth. Imagine: A young Klingon, Farengi, and human walk into a class room or bar or space station or ....
So much yes!
Yeah that would have been good.
I agree Alexander is kind of a big nothing of a character, but bringing him to DS9 and having him integrate with Jake/Nog into some kind of crazy trio could have been funny.
So yeah get out of my head... or pay rent lol
I would live for those shenanigans.
Or epic.
I mean, think of the dynamic there! Klingon Ferengi relations becomes a thing later on, with Nog impressing Martok by replacing his bloodwine stock with a better vintage, and Quark impressing Grilka so much with his accounting skills that she comes back to bang him in a later episode. Not having Alex be a part of the Jake and Nog dynamic is definitely a missed opportunity.
Chris Blake I think it would have been a rly fun dynamic. WILDCARD!
I was going to comment the same thing. adding a member to the trio could have tested nog and Jake's relationship when he arrives and shakes the dynamic. You would guess that him being the son of a starfleet officer would make him relate to Jake pretty early, making nog jealous, until they find common ground as non human children on a starfleet base.
In terms of proving subplots, there is just much more you can do with a trio than with a duo. Could you imagine épidosdes where the klingon honor code provides the hijinks similarly to the ferengi material continuum?
In the long term, it would provide Alexander with a chance to develop as a character. Him espousing his klingon roots by joining the klingon military could have been a great contrast to jake's civilian aspirations and Nog's trailblazer path as the first ferengi in starfleet.
Okay, we need to talk about how great of a dad Data is in his short time of being a parent. We only get glimpses of it, but he allows his daughter to make her own decisions about her appearence, but doesn't give her free reign--she initially wants to appear like Troi, which Data kindly and patiently explains would be confusing, but allows her to explore other options. He is able to explain the difference between being laughed with and laughed at, while explaining why people do so in a matter-of-fact way that shows understanding and great care in his word selection. When he struggles, he seeks out help from the best parent he knows: Beverly Crusher. While sure, working at the bar may not have been the best thing, who better than Guinan to learn about the subtlties of human interaction?
She then begins to outgrow and advance beyond Data. She sticks up for him with Admiral Haftel.
Then, as Lal suffers a cascading failure of her nueral net, Data works tirelessly to try and save her, but ultimately is unsuccessful. Still, she thanks him for her short life, and truely loves him--something he is unable to recipricate.
Data is a great dad.
I loved when Vice Admiral Haftel commented on Data's attempt to save Lal; stating his hands moved so fast I couldn't see them anymore.
Data loved Lal in his own way. Sometimes I think Data limited himself quite unnecessarily by seeing human emotions as the only true kind. Even before the emotion chip, he was on his way to developing his own kind of emotions. He just didn't see that yet.
I dunno, he kind of left her unattended tending bar in a ship where Will Riker is running loose. And we all saw what happened.
You could say Lal was transgender since her original form neither male or female.
But, remember Data reintegration of Lal's memories into his own neural network. So, in effect, she still alive with him.
I give Keiko credit for still trying to parent her child even after she was turned into a 12 year old.
And Miles stepping up when Molly rejects her in that situation.
That was a great moment in a great episode.
@@ginsengaddict The beginning of the long parade of instances in Miles life where he is in completely over his head because of wacky super-science, and thinking he was in a living hell.
That is one of my favorite TNG episodes, but it was SOO different watching it as a parent myself.
Rocketboy 1313
That’s where you have to give miles credit for sticking it out and finding ways to still enjoy his life.
I always got the impression that Carol never even told Kirk that he had a son.
Maybe she told him and he just forgot
After meeting him on Regula, Kirk asks Carol "Is this David?", and later says "I did what you asked, I stayed away". So, Kirk knew he had a kid, but was asked to stay out of his life. Which probably suited him fine.
That’s what I got from the film as well actually. Been a while since I watched it though.
She told Kirk, but she never told David. Kirk knows who he is when he hears the name, and he specifically asks Carol why she never told David who his father was.
No mention of Dr. Bashir's parents? I would say having illegal genetic modifications performed on your child because you didn't think they were smart enough, is pretty shitty parenting.
Is it though? You want the best for your "slow" kid, so you have him genetically altered to be a physically fit genius? I'm not saying you're wrong, BTW. Just musing. I kind of look at this as the college admission scandal of the 24th century.
sosie summers - I don’t agree. They did those modifications because they were worried for their son, he was really developmentally challenged and they just wanted him to keep up with the other kids. His dad also ultimately takes the fall and goes to prison to keep Bashir’s career intact. I’m sure there are many parents out there who would do something illegal if it meant that their kids could live a happy, “normal” life. Just my two cents.
What his parents did was illegal and highly controversial but I would argue that they didn't do it simply because Julian was not "smart enough". They did it because he had severe learning disabilities, and as I understand there were no effective treatment options in the Federation (which I think is surprising, but I'm no expert in the 24th century medicine). It all turned out well for Julian, but of course that doesn't excuse what they did and the risks they took, also when it comes to potential side effects of genetic modifications. However, this must have been a very difficult decision for them, and I would not condemn them so quickly for "shitty parenting".
Id say the are 100% the opposite of bad parents, they did what they needed to do to ensure the best life possible for the child despite the law, and when found out they chose to go to prison so Dr. Bashir could stay in starfleet
At the very least, in the "it's complicated" category
No discussion of quark and rom’s moogie?
MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOGIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!
Easily worse than Lwaxana.
No, she’s clearly pretty good, she loves her children AND helped them understand the Rules. She even networks to get Rom a big job.
@@TJRex01 but she embarrasses the hell out of them by daring to wear clothes! They wouldn't be able to show their faces on Ferengnar again!
@@liftwell That's a mothers job... that way you have something gripe about and rebel against...
No honourable mention for Data? Even the brief moments he had to share were so lovely and poignant.
Come on Vince! Get on it!
F***ing Vince!
No mention of Data?
Let's ignore how he is with Timothy in "hero worship", as that is more friendship than parenting, but look at Lal:
He weighs desire and rationale when consciously deciding to become a parent and makes every moment of his life from then on revolve around that role. Three points I think more parents should follow.
He is completely informed, but not above seeking new information that falls outside that framework, seeking parenting advice from his friends. He makes a very clear effort to give Lal a better start than he had; for example, starting with the observation that not just gender, but every aspect of how we present ourselves physically influences every interaction (even when it shouldn't) and thus let's her choose her own appearance.
He clearly shows an evolutionary leap in his desire to become more human; in becoming a parent he is doing something that he was in now way designed to do.
And when things go terribly wrong, the dialogue where they describe the effort of repairing her is one of the few times he is pushed to his limits... And beyond that; when the cascade failure starts, you can clearly see worry; being a parent forced his "programming" to manifest an emergent pattern that he should not be capable of at that point. And before that there are hints of this; he is clearly proud of her, as a person. And takes some pride in his being a parent.
I think the Lal episode is not only one of the best Data-episodes, it has informed some of my own views on how I hope to be now that I am a dad.
But in the end, Picard is the best parent:
czcams.com/video/mtfxYRkMmnc/video.html
100 on Data and Lal. First father I thought of when I started the video.
You know why I like Steve's channel so much? He can see beyond the unearned hero worship that some fans have toward certain characters and actually treat all the characters respectfully and with dignity! For some strange reason, many fans think that Picard, Kirk and Spock have to always be the center of the universe! Well, I'm here to tell you this is one topic where they lose out on! Not everything rotates around Data and Picard, whom you're grasping at straws to be a father! Picard is a good mentor--not a good parent! He has never really taken a long term interest in any child! When Wesley is standing in front of Picard, that's when Picard notices him! As for Data, he's on the same level as Seven's and Q's parents! Lahl was an EXPERIMENT! It was not fair of Data to bring his daughter into the world without the means to sustain her! The whole episode showed how even with the best intentions, the outcome can be tragic! Data was selfish on so many levels it wasn't even funny!
I was sure Data would be too of the list too, I kept waiting for him to be mentioned and was disappointed when he wasn’t. Maybe he could be mentioned in a not actually trek actually follow up
Maybe he didn't make the list because he was a parent for such a short time? I dunno.
@@Scottrick huh, with that episode, I'm usually already crying before that line, from her emotional reaction to the meeting with the admiral.... admiral.... admiral...
Data. It's just one episode but Data's devotion to Lal deserves a mention. "His hands... were moving faster than I could see..." always gets me.
And, especially in the wake of that wrenching scene in Picard, Seven as the adopted mother of Icheb as a great mother in direct contrast with his Brunali parents who designed him as a genetic weapon and sacrifices him to the Borg.
Yup. Data and Seven were great parental figures. Seven was also really good with Naomi Wildmam.
This.
I was just going to mention how he seems to have overlooked Seven after the reclaimed (since that's term, now) the children; I mean, sure, she initially comes off as more of a cool aunt--especially for Naomi--but she tends to catch mom duty for all the kids even more so than Neelix on dad duty.
@@sanityisrelative Don't forget One.
Amanda has her moment with Spock in " Journey to Babel ". She calls back on Spock's childhood, and how other Vulcan children used to shun him for being half human, and he would run to her for comfort. She is # 1 mom.
@@albertmartinez8721 Wow, imagine Seven having to lose One and Icheb, both tragically in front of her own eyes, in one lifetime. You know she loved them both.
Man even in a video with a whole segment on Sarek as a parent, poor Sybok still can’t even get a mention.
Also, forgot Ash Tyler and Lrel. I feel like hiding your child from one parent then pretending to kill him, throwing his fake baby torn off head in front a Empire’s government, while abandoning him with time traveling monks at least puts you in the “complicated parent” category.
Right? Question is the existence of sybok tips saric a little more towards the "bad" side.
The less said about Sybok the better.
I wonder if we'll see Sybok in Strange New Worlds. I'd like to see a whole movement of Vulcans that reject stoic logic.
Atvar I think Sybok should appear in Strange New World because it could retroactively make Star Trek v less nonsensical and also because canon is canon. Perhaps the grief over the loss of Michael Burnham led Sybok to slowly go insane.
I'm surprised you didn't praise Worf's parents more.
They are great. The scene from "Family" where we first meet them, and his dad talks about being an enlisted man and his mom saying how proud they were that Worf got into the academy has stuck with me since I saw it back in the early 90's.
One of the memories I have of watching ST:TNG first run was finding out that Worf's adoptive parents were Russian and thinking that was So Cool! Three cheers for the writers who thought of that angle. It made that universe more interesting to me.
How about Mr. O' Brian and his wife and child ?.
Thomas Bikel was great.
What? His father brought dishonour on his house when he betrayed the Klingon Empire to the Romulans!
Nothing on the siskos interactions with his dad? Grandaddy sisko held great chemistry!
Great chemistry true but I would put him in the complicated section because he didn't tell him who his real mother was. Or even that the woman that he grew up knowing as his mother was actually his stepmother. Plus the fact that he won't even give him his gumbo recipe he said he was going to take that to his grave. LOL
I was gonna make a joke about his attempt to kill the Federation president and stop the peace treaty with the Klingons, but maybe he shaped up between then and when Ben was born.
Barry Allen
That lie was to protect Ben, not hurt him.
@@zacharyroberts8028 knowing how chefs can be, I'm sure Ben Sisko prefers his own Gumbo recipe anyway :p he probably grew up watching his dad make it hundreds of times and basically knew what it was anyway. Maybe there's an extra spice or two that he keeps in a pocket and sneaks in. Maybe Ben added some Bajoran herbs to his after becoming attached to Bajor. Maybe Ben likes the roux a bit darker than his dad.
I know the real story reason for his sounding unenthusiastic was he thought his dad was a changeling at first, but the way he flatly says "gumbo as good as I remember" compared to the way he talks about his own cooking is something I think about a lot.
Honestly I just love cooking and the way DS9 used real cooking and showing actual creole and Cajun food in their future just, I like it a lot. TNG was kind of fake bs sounding about future cooking, as was that one time in DS9 a guy restarted a star. His recipe is just "add a bunch of alien ingredients and then you cook it in a special alien steamer", with nothing about how you actually want the food to turn out. How do you know when it's finished? And so on. So seeing future little standalone heaters (which we have kind of caught up to with those little induction units, huh) and Ben doing sauteeing and stuff. Was just nice. So like I appreciate your joke about the gumbo recipe lol it's just gotten me thinking about food and cooking in Star Trek in general
Sergey and Helena Rozhenko were beautiful parents. They were so loving and generous, and giving and supportive. I can't believe you didn't talk about them more. Their love for Worf was so moving and pure, they deserve all the praise and honor for being the perfectly wonderful parents that they were.
And I loved all the things you said about Rom. They were so beautiful and true. Unlike others I never wondered why Leeta would fall in love with and marry Rom. It was always obvious to me. Rom's the best and I will fight anyone who says differently.
They tried so hard to provide Worf with Klingon culture and food, which is more than many cross cultural adoptions do. Given that the show was written in the 80s/90s, I feel Worf had his fair share of family/adoption trauma that was just never tapped into (as they did with many traumatic stuff). If he was written nowadays, I'd bet that would have played out differently for the viewers to observe. Staying with the Rozhenkos was the best that could happen to Alexander within this crazy situation
I think you're a bit hard on the O'Brien's in general. Keiko and Miles are actually pretty good to great parents. Keiko sets up a school for the children on DS9 and when she is accidentally turned into a child in a TNG episode you can see genuine pain when Molly rejects her, that is not the sign of a bad parent. Later when Molly is transported into the past and is eventually recovered as a teenager, the O'Brien's do everything possible to try to care for her, reintroduce her into the 24th century, and even break her out, (with Odo's help) to take her back to that planet. Frankly their love was so great they were willing to give up their child in order for her to have the life she had become accustomed to, even though it meant never seeing her again, that isn't just paternal love, that is unconditional love.
I also have to point out that yes Miles seems to be hated by the universe in general because of the way he is written and abused but Deep Space 9, can't be both too dangerous to raise Molly and Yoshi in and yet be perfectly fine for Jake and Nog to grow up there, the location matters far less then the love and Miles and Keiko are both the most realistic portrayals of parents and also two of the best one's we see. Yes their careers at times take precedence over their children but it normally doesn't appear to be done at the expense of their children the way it is with Worf's son, Alexander.
Also, O'brien sends Keiko and the kids to earth for a season when it gets dangerous. They only come back after the war front has moved away from DS9.
I think sending Molly back in time was still pretty shitty. I get that she was accustomed to that life, but they tried for like 2 weeks after Molly had grown up her whole life in the jungle.
A good parent would have gone back to the planet and built a cabin next to the forest to live in. They could slowly reintroduce Molly into normal life. First she lives in the forest, then she visits cabin occasionally, then she starts lives there.
Eventually she's reintegrated into society after a couple of years. It was in the Bajor system, so O'brien could visit on weekends and a forest would still allow Keiko to work as a botanist.
Instead they put her back in time to live her life alone as a jungle girl and probably die of an infection before she's 30.
I will go to the mat for Keiko every time. I actually think she's a really good mom and that aspect of wanting to nurture extended to when she pivoted into teaching for a few seasons and when she really took well to being a host/guardian for Rugal. Whenever she has a botany excursion, there is never a question-- she's taking Molly and later Yoshi with her.
Kirk had no idea David was even born.
David didn't know Kirk was his dad
Carol was probably a one night fling.
Hell Kirk was a Cadet when this happened ?, who knows. Kirk was just a fire brand.
@@gollum1ring Agreed. And constantly being ditched by Niles for Julien after she gave up her career for Miles to take the DS9 gig would make anyone irritated.
Also I think Steve is forgetting about a little moment in the TNG Episode "Power Play" where Keiko boldy states she would give her life (die) as it meant securing the safety of her child (Molly who was a helpless infant)
One of my favorite scenes is when Quark sabotages Nog's test. Rom tells him he will burn his bar to the ground if he ever messes with his sons's life again. Such a powerful scene.
Can we get a shout out for Grandpa Joe? I completely agree that Ben Sisco is the best parent in Star Trek but it's in large part because of his own father who wasnt a big part of DS9 but when he was there he was always a strong source of wisdom and strength to the main character of the show who acts as a father figure to everyone else throughout the rest of the show.
He made quite an impression.
It's because of Grandpa Joe that I looked up the difference between Cajun and Creole. ;)
Benjamin Sisko's father was exceptional role model, even good Grandpa. But, what up one of Phrofits ie Worm hole beings taken over his Mother's body? And we learned later why Capt. Sisko's considered Emissary of Bashsor.
Both Rom and Nog start to see profit as something more than money.
That is the sweetest thing I've ever read about them.
You forgot to mention with Noonien Soong that while he did force Data to highjack the ship to come to see him when he was dying, he evidently didn't bother to call his biological son that thanks to Picard we now know exists.
Remember, Soong claimed that he had no idea that Lore had been reassembled and activated, since the last he knew, Lore was still in pieces back at the abandoned Omicron Theta colony after Soong had shut him down in response to the colonists' complaints.
@@JerseyDevilBM he wasn't talking about Lore, he was talking about his flesh and blood son from picard...
To be fair, it was never mentioned or implied by that episode that Noonien had a biological son, in fact the implication seemed to be that Noonien had no biological children. The addition of a biological son in Picard seems to have been an afterthought and not the intention during TNG.
As a child of manipulative, narcissistic, and emotionally abusive parents who is now a parent myself, your take on Dianna's parenting motivation rings true to me.
Rings true to me as well,
When I become a parent my father will be an anti-role model as well....
I am in agreement with you. I was raised the same way and I try very hard to be different to my kids.
Nothing about Joseph Sisko? not even a mention. I know he didn't play a massive part in the show. but he's still a dad, and we do get to see glimpses of the lessons he taught his son.
good point
Concur. If Sisko's desire to be a good dad shows, it must have come from how he was raised.
He tried to murder the Federation President. To hell with him!
@@BioGoji-zm5ph he was also Tom Robinson in To Kill A Mockingbird.
Even Marc Alaimo says "but he didn't kill her! And he loved her!", as proof for why he thought Dukat was turning good and should've joined the gang and been a main cast member. I suppose that's why he acted the "thinks he's the protagonist of his own story" part so well, he really did believe it lol
Dukat started to love her over time. It took him a while to have something else than himself in his life, but after he got over it, every time he is there in relation to her shows that he can be a father in more than the biological sense.
I feel like the arc of Jake and Sisko's relationship made it okay that Jake wasn't the last person to talk to his dad.
Jake's an adult with his own life and his own destiny ahead of him. Cassidy and his unborn kid still need him, but Jake has learned all Sisko could teach him and is ready to stand on his own.
Most people don't talk about this, but in S4E2 'The Visitor' Ben gets zapped by space anomoly energy stuff and gets caught in a subspace time void during science excursion with Jake. He then appears to Jake periodically throughout the rest of Jake's life, never aging. Jake commits his life to trying to unravel the mystery of how to save his dad. In the end he is successful. In this story Jake is the protagonist and Ben plays a passive role. It has always felt like a very important story in their father son story arc, foreshadowing the series finale 'What You Leave Behind'. Minus the space energy accident and lifelong quest to save his dad, it is pretty much the same conclusion, Ben gets whisked off to timelessness by forces beyond his control and Jake is left to live out his life, knowing his dad is out there, somewhere, living as a timeless being. The series finale, especially the closing scene with Jake and Kira looking out at the wormhole, sets this up with a great deal less angst, but still leaves their relationship in a similar open ended state, like an untangled thread. Ben and Jake are separated by time and space, and like The Prophets with Bajorans, always together. There is a tinge of melancholy, but also a sense of hope.
you seem to have forgotten one of the best parents. Moogie. she taught Quark business, did her best with Rom. She supports and loves her kids, while not letting them run all over her even on the ferengi scenario. Part of why Rom is such a good parent is probably because of the example she set for him. And of course is Enabrin Tain a shitty dad? Or just had to make tough choices in a world where a son is a target....
Considering that Garek developed claustrophobia due to Enabrin Tains' parenting methods and that Tain vocalized on multiple occasions within earshot of Garek, how he lamented not killing Gareks mother when she was pregnant, he can't have been father of the year material.
Moogie also gets in bed with the grand nagus for her own profit, and to aid the status of her sons
MOOGIEEEEEEE! Yay!
And Moogie pretty much single-handedly engineers radical reform on Ferenginar. She might actually be a magnificently shrewd revolutionary, which would probably have complicated her relationship with her sons.
I don't think there's enough material in DS9 to come to a real conclusion on Moogie, but what little we do get to see is at least unconventional.
moogie is the shit. 100% best star trek mom.
"Being a good dad not only improves his son's life, but his own life as well." So very true. If every parent could take that to heart, we'd have a lot more emotionally healthy people in this world.
I'm going to say that Garak's dad was the worst dad in the entire series, maybe ever, worse Worf, and any dead beat dad in any series that men have ever created. Dukat...has issues, but Dukat has been portrayed as a family man before, and shown to love at least some of his kids normally. Garak's dad...?
This realization only came to me years after I first saw his death scene, when I was older and wise enough to really interpret it. Garak asks Tane to basically admit that he was a good son, loved him, something like that, whatever, not important. Basically he wanted his dad to acknowledge him as his son. Tane goes on about some story of when Garak was a boy, and kept falling down on a bike, but picked himself up, and said "I was so proud of you then." and dies. It's only now that I realize what a shit move that was. Tane was an emotionless bastard who saw Garak first as a liability and then as a tool. He never allowed himself to love Garak, or care for him, and protects him primarily out of a social sense of pride/duty, instead of parental care. He protects Garak, if at all, less because he loves him and more because of the possible shame he would face if his enemies killed 'his son'.
So on his death bed, when he's asking his son to kill his enemies and finish his business, after Garak asks for that one thing he never gave him, the bastard sidesteps it all with some sob story that could be interpreted as something meaningful, instead of just saying 'son I love' or 'I'm proud of you son', to make sure Garak fulfills his dying wish.
It was then I realized, Garak has spent maybe his whole life, believing he was the son not good enough for his father, when in reality, he was a far better son, than his bastard of a father ever deserved.
Long story short, fuck Tane, fuck'em!
Tane *definitely* deserves a shout-out, at least as a complicated parent. Cardassian society works by its own rules, but I can’t defend Tane as a good parent on any level.
I don’t know if I would classify Tain one as the worst. He was a decent mentor to Garak and helped him become a top agent of the Obsidian Order. By all means he DEFINITELY isn’t the best, but I don’t think he deserves to be so low. (Granted it was because of him that Garak has claustrophobia).
Yeah, Dukat has his issues. He's no father of the year, but one of my favourite conversations he has with Sisko, he's lamenting he couldn't take his son to a park for his birthday because of the crisis of the week after promising to do so, and Sisko empathizes with a story of his own regarding Jake's upbringing. His family and his stories regarding them (Ziyal is hit or miss, no pun intended) are some of the more humanising parts of his character that I really enjoy.
One of the things I liked about Discovery is that it added more context to Sarek & Spock's previously established rift. Having Sarek be forced to choose which of his children can join the Vulcan Expeditionary Group (because of racist old Vulcans) & then having Spock (the child he chose) refuse the Vulcan Science Academy as a whole makes Sarek's displeasure with Spock's life choices make a bit more sense.
For sake of completeness, Seven of Nine became an adoptive mother in Voyager. I'd like to think she did alright.
speaking of ben and jake, i remember watching the ds9 documentary and avery brooks said he wanted to set a good example for fathers since the norm became fathers leaving their kids. defintly came through his acting in the show. The actors, cirroc lofton and avery brooks, became really close off screen too. Always admired that aspect.
Daimon Bok is on the best list, right? I mean, he loved his son so much, he engaged in an unprofitable venture to avenge him, and profit is everything to a ferengi.
For the worst list: Icheb and Seven parents
That's a good point. Seems like a very bad parent by human standards, but by FERENGI standards? Choosing vengeance for his son over PROFIT? That's unthinkable.
@@amazedsatsuma at least Seven's parents were just naive and arrogant in that special Federation scientist sort of way. Icheb's bio parents are monsters who created him to be a weapon on mass destruction. Seven was a better parent to him than his ever were.
Mr. Steve could I add one more to the crappy parents pile? B’Elanna Torres had a father who openly mocked both her and her mother to the point where she was ashamed to be half Klingon. Then he abandons her when she turned 12 and that really gives her a complex and fear that her husband will do the same. The way Tom handles that situation is one of the shining moments of Voyager for me. He tells her that he is not the kind of person who would do that.
I get the feeling Rom always wanted what was best for his son. It's just that his idea of what is "best" changes over time.
I'd say Captain Sulu was proud that his daughter was helm operator of Enterprise B. She's taking after the old man."it wouldn't be the Enterprise without a Sulu at the helm."
Dr. Mora! Not technically Odo's dad, but there's definitely a parental relationship there, and as complicated as their relationship is, it's definitely clear that Dr. Mora loves Odo very much in the couple of episodes he features in.
Yes! Thank you for mentioning Dr. Mora -- I liked this character a lot, and his relationship with Odo. And FYI, in the "Terok Nor" trilogy of DS9 prequel novels (which I don't think are canon, but still...) we get more backstory on Dr. Mora and how he "raised" Odo in the Bajoran Institute of Science.
We know more about Sulus parenting from the movie Generations... “When something is important to you, you make the time.”
"Extra tasty crispy" Thanks Steve, I just spat iced tea all over my keyboard :p
I got that too
"Extra tasty Chris P."
I am absolutely using "Original Recipe" and "Extra Chris P." to distinguish the Kirks from now on.
When Steve said "extra tasty Chris P", I was ROFL.
I spit out my vanilla coke
I do love those intentionally bad segues.
My favorite DS9 episode where they showcased Jake and Ben Sisko was “the visitor” and the episode where we saw Tony Todd do some of the absolute best acting of his entire career in that episode as the adult Jake dragging Ben along through his life.
Heart wrenching episode and how broken Ben was whenever he found out that Jake had poisoned himself in order to stop dragging Ben through time with him and get him back to the past on board the Defiant that would save him.
Data? Lal totally counts.
What about Tom Paris and Janeway's lizard kids? I'm sure they're totally fine, on that random jungle planet.
Seven of Nine? Yeah, they were adopted, but come on. She went on a roaring rampage of revenge for one of them. That's parental love.
There totally could be a sequel to this video exploring more Star Trek parents ;)
The timeline concerning children has always baffled me. Alexander cannot be more than 3 years older than Molly O’Brien.
Something something Klingons maturing at different rates to humans.
Yeah, he can't be more than 8 years old when TNG ends, and few years later, he's a fully grown adult.
Emma MacFarlane Like Naomi Wildman. Samantha was pregnant for nearly a full season, the slow gestation being explained by the father being an alien. Then just a couple of years later... Naomi looks about 6 or 7... explained by the father being an alien.
Maybe Worf abandoned him on Boreth at some point and he got into the time crystals.
Those years are just the most boring years! At least if you ask the writers on Star Trek, anyway...
Lwaxana Troi also repressed the memories of her first child Kestra, the elder sister to Deanna, because they were too traumatic to deal with after Kestra's accidental death (TNG: Dark Page). Maybe this subconsciously (or subtelepathically if that's a thing) influenced Deanna to become a counsellor to help with her mother's issues.
Lwaxana was ALOT of things, but there was never any doubt that she loved her daughter and there was nothing she would've done for Deanna. Overbearing, Force of nature, Strong Personality. But also Loving and Caring.
I think one of the things that made the relationship between Benjamin and Jake Sisko as father and son is that Avery Brooks treated Cirroc Lofton like a son during the filming of Deep Space Nine. They did a lot of father and son activities. Avery would take Cirroc to the Laker games a lot with his real son. Avery would even introduce Cirroc to his friends like, "These are my sons" including Cirroc as one of 'his sons.' Cirroc Lofton mentions this in the Documentary film What We Leave Behind. I think that really did add to the feelings of familial love that came across the screen from both actors.
What about Picard? In the inner light he had experiences and it certainly seems as though it is Picard being a wonderful parent and grandparent throughout.
‘the visitor’ was such a good father/son episode
You forgott Sareks first child Sybok, who went nuts, embraced emotions and went looking for god ...
Three broken children, with the only link between them being Sarek. I think we know what the real problem was.
I had finally gotten Star Trek V out of my brain. Thanks :P
I released my pain and forgot about Trek V.
As someone who had not so great parents this one really impacted me. Great stuff and I totally agree Capt.Sisko is the best parent in Star Trek
I feel like you missed an important element in why Ben and Jake's relationship felt so real: because it was. Avery Brooks and Cirroc Lofton do genuinely have a father-son relationship. Cirroc's parents were splitting up around the time filming started on the first season and between that and the filming schedule, he didn't see much of his father. Avery took him in and treated him as his own. Cirroc mentions Avery introducing him and his own son as 'my boys' on at least one occasion.
Aww.
Lwaxana is the perfect replication of a loving mother, who is really a child upset her husband died. She honestly does love her daughter, but she never grew up, and never wanted to. She's a child of privilege who has used that privilege for positive social change, but she's still a child. Most of it is an act to hide how utterly miserable she is and how much she doesn't want her daughter to be as miserable as she is. She's old, scared, and alone, worse she is heartbreakingly lonely.
She has no idea how to connect with people, including her daughter.
Worf. The first time. Sometimes the best thing a parent can do for a child is know, they are not the ones who can take care of them. But yeah, after the first time? Why? your quarters aren't big enough? No, its a matter of you don't have time to do the hard thing.
"Often-Wrong's got a broken heart
Can't even tell his boys apart."
She didn’t only lose her husband but her older daughter as well, Kestra, who drowned. I can see how she would become overly involved in Troi’s life. Troi is all she has left.
Riker has a pizza oven and makes pizza he’s the best parent
I have some concerns about Kestra having no friends of her own age
One of the things I found striking about Sisko as a father is that he clearly has a temper, but that temper is *never* aimed at Jake.
I feel like you should have at least mentioned Voyager's episode where the doctor is a dad in the holodeck and when 7 of 9 takes care of those borg kids.
Everyone forgets that Picard was a father for an episode. In Inner Light he lived a lifetime where he had two kids. He cared about their relationships. Spent time with them. Took them on fun, educational field trips. Let his son quit school to become a musician. Was close to his grandkids. Sure, it was a simulation designed to give him a happy, memorable life. But by all it showed him doing, he was a great dad.
I'm somewhat surprised you never mentioned one of the more philosophically tumultuous parent/child relationships in DS9, though it was only in one episode...Bashir and his parents, they even go so far, for all their problems, to go to prison to protect their son's happiness, and it opens the door to a whole skillset of the character, he goes from brilliant doctor to (I think?) The first example of a good genetically engineered person.
Admittedly, it would’ve been cool if Worf had brought Alex to DS9. We could’ve gotten some fun interactions with him, Jake and Nog.
Parents do have a huge impact on the development of a child. But, I have know some really crappy people that came from loving and attentive parents who did their best to instill good values. And I know a couple kids of former friends who turned out to be some of the most awesome people I know, and their parents were teenagers that still have yet to grow up. Economic and social status, school, friends all have an impact. And parents do have some control over those things. People are weird. And why we are how we are is also weird and complicated.
Naomi Wildman was a great recurring character. Her appearance on the series was one of the only things that truly made Voyager feel like a long journey back to Earth. I liked the episode where her and Seven were the only ones not affected by hallucinations of seeing Earth, because Voyager was her only home. The surrogate parent-child relationship with Seven and Naomi, and later Seven and Icheb, is definitely worth a mention since you're talking about parenting. And Icheb's bizarrely gruesome death in Picard just to serve as a plot point actually pissed me off quite a bit, despite the fact that I enjoyed that series as a whole. I really looked forward to seeing that side of Seven being developed more... Ok, I'm done now, just felt like that was really important to mention since not all parental relationships are biological in nature.
I never disliked the Picard series when it came out, but what happened with Icheb is, imo, one of the worst Star Trek lore decisions ever made.
I was a teen when Voyager was airing new episodes. For a lot of us who were nerdy awkward kids, Icheb was our stand-in of the series. It would've been cool to have seen Icheb become a bridge officer, or maybe even a captain, someday. Now that opportunity is gone. Most of the time I don't agree with the "modern Trek is too dark!" people, but killing Icheb was one if the few times where I think they went unnecessarily dark.
I lost my father in an accident some years ago, and damn if DS9 didn't make me cry my eyes out on multiple occasions through the depictions of Ben and Jake Sisko. The show understood the importance of fatherhood so well, and knowing how it feels for that to be suddenly absent in your life like Jake experienced really spoke to me. 10/10 fantastic show.
Sometimes I wonder what Worf would have been like as a parent if he had actually had children with Jadzia... having so many other experienced parents around, he might have learned a lesson.
Sisko is the best of them though. I had just gotten into DS9 when I got accepted into university and had to decide whether to move abroad. So I put on The Visitor and let Avery Brooks chew me out about not throwing my chances away. The next day, I accepted.
🙀I can’t believe my ears about what you are saying about Lwaxana Troi!? I always loved Majel Barrett as Lwaxana she reminded me of Rosalind Russell’s Auntie Mame.
Goddamn I love that movie!
But she's incredibly annoying, self-righteous, arrogant, self-centered, egotistical, and narcissistic. I get that people like her exist in the real world, but why would anyone like a person with those traits? They're basically a parallel personality type to sociopaths. Different disorder, but parallel.
Jason Walker you’re forget the most important part... They’re very entertaining to watch! Like a train wreck, you just can’t take your eyes off
@@danilejai7801 I love the way she knocks on the wall to get the computer's attention, before saying what she wants/where she wants to go...
Honorable Mention to Papa Picard, whom we see recreated from Picard's thoughts by Q in "Tapestry", and from the descriptions of him by Robert it was probably an accurate recreation, where he greets his dying son, who is in his 60s, with "I knew you'd fuck this up somehow."
Kestra was also Trois's sister, what a neat way to honor her Kestra was the oldest of Lwaxana's children. Tragically, Kestra drowned during a family picnic at Lake El'nar. The incident left Lwaxana so broken with sorrow, guilt, and regret that she decided to repress all memories of Kestra. She also deleted all diary entries pertaining to her. She destroyed everything that could possibly remind her of Kestra and also made her husband promise never to mention Kestra again. A picture of Kestra remained, however, secretly preserved by Mr. Homn. (TNG: "Dark Page")
I think it’s worth mentioning that time when Odo adopted a sick infant changeling. He clearly was a good dad for that short time and would have continued to be had it not ended tragically through no fault of his own, to the point where the infant changeling chose to sacrifice its few remaining moments to link with Odo and restore his shape shifting ability.
Odo’s “dad” from the same episode could definitely go into either the bad or complicated categories since he was very bad when Odo was young but became a decent parent and grandparent in the episode through helping Odo with the infant changeling.
We actually do get to see something of what Trip and T’Pol are like as parents through the episode E2, where we see their alternate timeline middle aged son Lorian. It seems at least that version of them would fall into the “good parents” bucket.
I used to think Lawaxana was such a horrible character and parent as well. Until I got to binge both TNG and DS9 in order of airing instead of taking 6 months or 7 years to view them. Once I understood how lonely Lawaxana was after the death of her husband and so many other failed relationships, and how deeply hurt she was at the death of Kestra (to the point of it literally driving her crazy at the time then nearly killing her years later), that made her overcompensate way too much with Deanna, it made her way more... sympathetic? She wanted so intensely to be happy herself and pushed Deanna so hard to find her own happiness. Her intentions were usually good but badly implemented.
Regarding Jake, I always felt that once Jake didn't join Star Fleet, he was dropped as a character--literally! Jake's storylines were replaced with Nog's! I know the actor playing Jake was busy graduating from school, but how the writers treated him the last two years was a let down!
I do really appreciate your smooth yet not-at-all subtle explanation about nonbinary identities being valid. You did explicitly mention NB identities earlier, but still, very cool!
How about Janeway as a grandparent? She was on the other side of the galaxy when her dog had puppies. Just wow.
I always assumed the computer was semi-sentient and for some reason just enjoys messing with you.
Can't believe you forgot Janeway and Tom straight up abandoning their salamander babies that one time.
(threshold day is coming up!)
You forgot Janeway, she had children and left them all alone in the delta quadrant
Please don't go there
What happened in "Threshold" stayed in "Threshold." Thank god.
I remember hearing that Avery Brooks put so much into the role because he recognized that there weren't many good black father figures on TV, so he had a responsibility to do his best.
Funny the way you describe Sarek is exactly how some would describe Spock. Trees and apples and all that.
As far as Sisko connecting with Cassidy instead of Jake... Yes, fatherhood has been central to Sisko's character, but by that point in the series, Jake is a grown man. Whereas Sisko's journey with Cassidy was just beginning. I think that's the more important relationship at that point in time - or at least the one that needs his attention.
Jake was also the one who suggested that Ben go out again.
Adam Lytle - I think ‘the visitor’ is the perfect reason why they should have been together for that last scene. Jake gave up his entire life to save his dad and was emotionally broken without him. I love DS9 but it was such a terrible way to end that series. Especially given that they made Cassidy pregnant too!
So they basically end it with Sisko becoming a deadbeat dad for his unborn child. The Siskos deserved so much better for their ending.
@@scotteous if there had been a decent chance of them coming back for a movie or something it might have made sense, but given that I'm sure they knew they wouldn't be getting any sort of chance outside of non-canonical books, having an open-ended question about Sisko's return was kind of a baffling decision.
I had always surmised, based on the dialogue between Carol and Jim, that Kirk was under explicit instructions from Carol to "stay away", hence why he hadn't kept up with or even knew what his son looked like. For me that's reinforced by his reaction in the turbo lift when he's informed he has an incoming communication from Carol Marcus, clearly a sore spot for him as he points out to Bones. The impression I took away was that their relationship ended poorly, based on his career, and that Kirk had done as she'd asked, though it seems to have pained him to do so. As someone who has always wanted to be a father and at this stage in my life will likely not get that chance anymore, I could imagine it would be horribly painful to see my child growing up without me, knowing that I couldn't ever be a part of their life. I could see myself deciding to not keep tabs on them specifically because of the futility of it and the pain it would cause me. Perhaps it was similar for Kirk?
Yeah this is WAY too hard on Kirk, esp if u hold the Autobiography of Kirk canon. Carol basically used him as a sperm bank without his knowledge or consent, then denied him any parental rights to his own child which is outright *illegal* in our time!
Being denied contact with their child is one of the worst things that can happen to anyone.
James T. Kirk: "You damn Klingons... you killed my bastard!"
Dude, forgot about Phlox.
Right, he has like 30 kids that he mentions a couple times and we never see.
that's right. phlox is estranged form one of his sons, hadnt spoke to him in 10 years i think
@@luv4ever101 Yep. And pretty much because his son became a total racist, which is just another one of those interesting ideas that Enterprise didn't explore (as typically the reverse happens more often IRL, where people have racist parents who they try to get away from).
Don’t think he wants to validate space mengele
I'm a little surprised Data didn't get a mention. Head did have his daughter for a short time.
As always I found this video hilarious, but I have to object to your implicit characterization of Miles O'Brien as an irresponsible parent. The endless perils he underwent were not because he was living on the space station; they came because God hated him. Travails would have followed him anywhere.
On the other hand, on at least one occasion he got to see Kira Nerys naked, so that probably compensated for at least one of his torture sessions.
I think the implication is that once you become aware that the universe seems to have marked you as ground-zero for a thermonuclear shit-storm the responsible thing to do as a parent is to make sure your children are as far from you as possible.
@@gaelyyn that's assuming that he realizes that the universe hates him.
to him... it's just tuesday.
Ya the amount of ptsd he suffered was insane. Poor bastard.
I'm sure Dukat treated his other children better than Ziyal, and Tain used to lock Garak in a closet and didn't even acknowledge that Garak was his son until his deathbed. I think Tain is the worse one on the parenting aspect.
Seeing Riker and Troi as good parents in Picard made me particularly happy because as a kid watching Star Trek as a family (Voyager was our weekly family show, but my dad was a pretty big trekkie so I grew up with Next Gen too) Riker always looked like and reminded me so much of my dad, and he was a pretty good parent.
Dukat had a raktagino mug that said "Galaxy's #1 Dad" (which he made for himself). Tain had one that said, "I almost blew up the Founder homeworld and all I got was this lousy mug."
In regards to Kirk, I thought that he didn't know that Carol had a child.
He did. Kirk is the first person to say the name David in the film. Carol never told David who his father was.
Yes, Kirk knew. He wouldn't have known his name otherwise.
He knew. But the impression I got, Carol didn't want Kirk to be in his son's life. Good chance she has forbidden Kirk from even sending messages, let alone calling. So it is unfair to assume Kirk didn't want anything to do with David.
I think Lwaxana Troi is roughly mediocre parent, in terms of other parents I've known in real life. Certainly light years better than Worf.
Also, as a character I find her to be a lot like a lot of people I've known in person. I don't like her as a person, but I do like her as a character.
At least Worf aknowleged how unfit he was by leaving his son to his parents. In a way, Lwaxana feels too real to me.
Nog, Jake, Alexander, Rugal and Ziyal would have been a great group of friends! I'd also add Ba'el from TNG, if she could move to the station. She and Ziyal would have lots in common, and Alexander certainly wouldn't judge her by her heritage, as Worf did.
Did you really forget about DATA?!!
his hands were moving faster then i could see trying to stay ahead of each break down... :( ...czcams.com/video/zNnyuNK5dv8/video.html
I always thought you was arguing with the computer
What about Odo with the baby changeling? I thought did a pretty decent job. And joining the chorus singing Seven's praises in her treatment of the Borg children, especially Icheb.
Can we get a recognition of Motherhood for Seven of Nine? Some of my favorite moments from Voyager include her being the surrogate mother figure for the Borg children, secondary adult figure for Naomi, and you can't tell you didn't feel her grief for One, the 29th Century drone.
I'm also sure someone may argue the same for Janeway with Kes and Seven. And because I want to cover all bases, both the Doctor and Data themselves when they had their respective offspring. Data allowed Lal to choose her identity, and the Doctor may have at first done it to experience what it was like to have family, but he still cared deeply for them in the episode and we could argue that he may have continued the program beyond said episode.
If anything, I just want acknowledgement for "Mother Seven."
I'm more impressed that someone else remembered that The Voyager EMH had a son called Jason.
Of course we actually know nothing of their relationship but since EMH abandoned him I guess he'll be on the "bad parent" list.
I'll start by saying, I love my dad. One of the best things he ever did for me, was giving me away. And are the worst things you ever did to me, was take me back. As I've gotten older I've gotten more understanding as to why.
I would like to add for consideration for the worst parents: Julian Bashir's mother and especially his father in DS9. They decided that Julian wasnt smart enough at age 5 or 6 so they decided to get an illegal operation done that genetically altered him changing both his mental and physical capabilities and forcing him to hide who he is for his whole life.
Then when there is a Julian's secret gets out, his father gets mad at Julian for not wanting to keep hiding who he is so that his parents don't have to worry about going to jail. His father worries about himself, not Julian, despite it being his own fault for him going to jail, not something Julian did. And his mother, instead of owning up to what they did, tries to convince Julian they were in the right and guilting him into seeing they were right. And while Julian's father does go to jail for him in the end, they still don't apologize or say what they did was wrong.
And if you consider The Nexus play canon, then Julian's father also would get frustrated and upset with Julian before his genetic enhancements. And after then, he would show off Julian's intelligence to people.
When Julian called his father his architect, he wasn't kidding. Richard Bashir seemed only interested in using Julian to make himself look good. And if he since he didn't get his perfect son, he decided to create him.
In all fairness to Kirk, we don't have any proof that Carol ever told him that David existed.
Exactly what I was going to say.
That's not true because in the movie one of Kirk's lines to Carol was "is that David?" So that tells us that he did know about the child. He even told Carol "I did what you asked. I stayed away." So he definitely knew he had a son.
this might be one of my favorite star trek videos you have made. I keep coming back every few months)
In O'Brien's defense, if he had requested a transfer to Earth, the Borg would probably have sent a dozen cubes to assimilate the planet.
You know, I kinda wish that the O'Briens went into something of a co-parenting arrangement with Major Kira. She did help carry their second child to term, and she obviously grew close with the both of them. I realize that they were kinda pushing it with Dax's "lesbian" relationship, and knowing what I now know about Rick Berman, he would not have been cool with polyamory.
34:00 Here is how I interpret this part of DS9, and also the final scene with Jake and Kira looking outside the portal. First of all, if Ben has only one window left to speak to another corporeal being before joining The Prophets, it would need to be Cassidy. She's a human woman who's seeing the uncertainty of now raising a new child on her own on an alien space station. It would mean everything for her to have that assurance from Ben that he'll be back. As for Jake? Let's remember two things about him: #1: he's a grown man and not a child anymore, and #2: he's technically not fully human. The first is obvious, the second is that he's also partially descended from The Prophets, meaning he might have some of the same connection to them as his father does. Both those factors together mean he already has some understanding at two levels of the decision his father had to make, and that his father is out there, somewhere. The final shot is of him and a Prophet devotee Kira looking out into the strangeness of outer space signifies they know they're just a small part of a larger cosmic game that's being played.
I can't believe you didn't mention Mora Pol. Odo tried to unconsciously kill him over his seething resentment he had been able to fully overcome.
And then he and Odo together manage to be really good dads to an infant changeling. That entire episode is a pretty cool study of parenthood.
Nepenthe is my favorite episode as well, but mostly because I'm a Larry Niven nerd, and they name-dropped the kzinti. There was an animated series episode involving them, written by Niven. No, I've never been certain of Canon status for that episode, but with that name drop in live action trek, Thrint, Tnuctipun, and Kzinti must canonically exist in Trek, as well as Niven's known space.
Hadn't thought about the Thrintun. It might explain why all the "elder races" seem to be only a few tens of thousands of years older. Now imagine the Pak in Star Trek...
I've never heard of those others but Kzinti are definitely canon.