THIS is more important than heat treatment of steel!
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- čas přidán 18. 02. 2023
- Yet another amazing and informative video from the ever-so-knowledgeable Tobias Hangler (Graz, Austria). In this knife-making video, Tobias teaches us some of the most common geometries used in knife making, the advantages (and disadvantages or pros and cons) of each style and which knife geometry is best for you as a knife maker!
Tobias Hangler website: en.messerschmiede-hangler.at
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I’m sad that I only discover this amazing channel after almost five years of amateur knife making. Thank you Tobias and UK Knife Show.
Hey buddy thanks for watching! Glad to hear you’re enjoying the video! We have lots of other vids with Tobias in it too! Check them out on the channel!
This is undoubtedly the best knife making/sharpening chanell that I discover this year. Love it!!!
Wow that is very nice of you thanks for the comment!
Your explanation was very detailed, and the information provided was also very useful.
Glad it was helpful!
Great video. I got one kitchen knife on cheap steel that outperforms several knives with much better steels because of geometry. Geometry is highly important and quite tricky too.
Full Flat grind adhesion to food is not only an annoyance, it also increases cutting resistance on some vegetables like potato. Full Flat sometimes sticks so much I can hold the knife by the potato and it doesn't fall off.
Convex will help a lot with food release but if its an obvious thick convex it also increases cutting resistance. In my experience best knives have a very subtle convex, they look Full Flat but if you put a ruler on it the convex will show up.
Hollow grind is quite common on ultra cheap western chef knives. An obvious hollow creates a shoulder and increase cutting resistance. We also see Hollow grind on Japanese high end knives. Its the same Hidden Hollow pattern that looks like Full Flat but will show up with a ruler. They do this geometry by hand with large stone wheels. I don't own any of them to comment on performance for sure but I bet they are quite good.
Santoku grooves don’t really help with food release but hammered finish does and so does an embossed finish.
Hi Thiago thanks for the lovely and comprehensive feedback. You are right with your comments! I also do agree that a subtle convex works really well for when I use it in the kitchen (like the Walkschliff I suppose).
But ultimately, having a 'Brute De Forge' finish helps the food come off too but can still be ultra slim.
Thanks again!
- Vinz
Tobias is the best teacher and his work is absolutely stunning! Thanks very much for putting this serie out for us knives nerds and makers.
Thank you soo much, it means a lot to me as i am really not used to standing in front of a camera
Thanks again Dayannah! Tobias is lying by the way, he is absolutely brilliant on camera - he’s obviously a natural! 😍🥰
Happy to hear you found the video useful!
@@tobiashangler I consider this serie of video with you the absolute best in the small CZcams knifemaker's game, and that's counting with Walter Sorrells and a bunch of talented people. If you where to offer fuller comprehensive videos for a price, I'd totally buy them. UKBladeshow is right, you're a natural regarding media content, and he himself kills at video making!
No kidding it's good, and the series on the induction forged gomai Apex Ultra Sgrind bunka marked me like red hot steel !
@@dayannahkali wow that’s very nice of you. Thanks again and I hope to chat with you again soon!
I had no idea there was so much to know about kitchen knives.
Thanks 🙏 we hope you enjoy the other videos we do too!
Great video and info........but can we please get some more information on his "push stick" bearing contraption?!?! That this is genius. Please
Hi! This was a special tool developed by Tobin Machines in Austria (together with Messerschmiede Hangler and Kamon Knives). It was officially announced as well on Instagram recently: instagram.com/p/Coz0qwatqrd/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
I made a cameo on the tormek bit! :D
Where ;) you'll never know mate, maybe the viewers can wish to see you in the UK Bladeshow some time soon.... ;)
Thanks for watching dude!
Love your handle mr Surfer! ;)
very useful and I now know why those laguiole pocket knives are the way they are too. thanks for sharing
You're very welcome! Glad to hear you learnt something from this video - I learnt a lot myself which is why I really enjoy my job (which is just to point and shoot the camera hahaha)!
- Vinz
Wow ich habe mir Deine Homepage angesehen, Du machst wirklich extrem edle Messer. Danke für das Video. Liebe Grüße Gerry
Thanks too for watching Gerry! Tobias Hangler is an absolutely amazing maker (and great at making homemade drinks too ;) )
Thanks for watching!
- Vinz
Danke auch, dass du Gerry gesehen hast! Tobias Hangler ist ein absolut erstaunlicher Hersteller (und auch großartig darin, hausgemachte Getränke zuzubereiten ;) )
Danke fürs Zuschauen!
Danke Gerry, das freut mich 🙌
Tobias is an excellent teacher! I can't get enough of these videos.
Hundred percent agree with you to bias is an amazing teacher. I hope you enjoy all the videos we put together not just with Tobias but we have other professional knife makers featured on the UK Bladeshow
Great explanation, thank guys!
With absolute pleasure David. Thanks for watching!
Thank you. This should aid in consistency.
100%! Thanks for watching!
cool video. i found this very informative:)
I am glad you got something out of it!
Thanks Seb! Tobias is full of these information and we are all grateful for the knowledge he shares!
Beautiful work and informative content, thank you.
You’re very welcome! Thanks for watching!
Excellent tutorial. Thank you.
Cheers Simon!
All the grinds are needed and all the grinds are important. I use Scandi for crafting things, like woodworking for example. I use Full flat for food prep. MY Hunting knife is full Convex and that's what works way better for dressing and in the same time, it provides a super sharp edge, which is also essential for a hunting knife. Finally, my outdoors knives, are all Saber grinds, what you saw here names, simply "Flat". Sometimes you'll see it Flat Saber or simply Saber grind. That makes both the blade and the edge more robust, so it's great for collecting wild edibles and general outdoors jobs.
100% - no one type of geometry is good at everything. Thanks again for your feedback!
Love this explanation of blade geometry. It's much more clearly explained that what I've read in many books. I'm also facinated by the little glimpses of Tobias's grinding. Please consider doing a full video with Tobias on his grinding method. I'd love to know more about the jig he's using to put pressure on the blade. Does it also keep the blade angle consistent?
Hi! Thanks for the compliment and yes, Tobias did a fantastic job explaining this to us! If you're interested in grinding techniques, well, you're in for a treat! The next video coming is about a few different grinding techniques, including this prototype jig!
Fantastic informational video. Loved it. Something i can show to my students and others in the guild and know that they will get something out of it. Thanks for sharing.
Hi Tom massive thanks for this! Collaborating with Tobias has been an amazing journey and happy to hear that you are finding it valuable!
Cheers!
- Vinz
I'm only a hobbyist but the master smith I work with drummed into me some time ago - work out the purpose or intention of the knife prior to making it. The purpose or intention will then inform on steel choice, heat treat & geometry/grind (the 'holy trinity' if you will). I'm into camping & bushcraft so I love the scandi, convex & flat grinds. Not big on hollow grinds due to reduced blade strength but it is great where slicing is a prime factor due to thin cross section. This a great video - I don't think you can ever know too much about blade design. Have a great day!
Cheers David and lovely to chat with you again! 100% agree with your assessment! I actually have an idea to make a video of a “complete” how to select your knife but generally speaking, you need to plan it before making it. I understand that “winging” things as you go along can be fun but it’s not cost-conscious, laborious, and more importantly, does not guarantee your customer will be pleased with the end product.
Thanks again David!
Fantastic video! I think that is more good information on grinds compressed into a short space than l have ever seen before.
Thanks David! Happy to hear that you’ve found the video useful!
The die hard clip was great, fantastic explanations as well
Haha thanks for that Pete! Glad you enjoyed it!
This is AMAZING...thank you from a new maker!!!!
You’re welcome Jeffrey and thanks for watching!
Thank you much Tobias. You gave very good insight of the many differing grinds and how they slice or cut.
Love the detail. Thank you for your time and effort on these videos.
Glad you like them!
Great video again guys! Keep up the good work!
Cheers buddy and lovely to see you back! Chat again soon!
Thanks!
Thank you Rubinn! Appreciate the Super Thanks a lot 🤩🎉😍
Its sort of a challenge for me over the last 5-6years making mostly culinary knives is that final refinement of the geometry, its really a case of all the marbles getting it super-fine and not making an error, overheating or some other kind of horrible mistake because it'll all be over. Having talked to a lot of line cooks and process workers, basically none of them care about full flat grinds and sticking, they sort of chalk it up to basically just a work process, if their knife cuts well and gives them no problems otherwise they just sort of keep going. That's probably a pet peeve of some chefs and a few home users but overall its not a reason most will pass up a decent knife.
I used to do a lot of compound grinds in the past and they do work as shown with the S and C grinds, people like them and use them just fine but I'm not entirely convinced its a huge improvement for a lot of users and its quite a strain on your skills. What I have found is a lot of cooks really just do not like a hollow ground knife due to 'wedging' in harder foods, they don't want to stop what they're doing to go get something off their rack which is better for chopping up a pumpkin as that will probably just get them even crankier! That said, some butcher and skinning knives really do perform extremely well as a hollow grind and their user's love them. So its just really a case of what works the best and often what works for the customer as well.
I've often said a few times, I'm not out to change the way someone cuts food and just there to match a shape and grind that you'll find best to use for how you use it.
Yes there are so many different user behaviors that there is certainly not one grind that will fit all use cases and preferences. I am glad its that way because that gives us the opportunity to play with different geometries to see what convinces us.
@@tobiashangler A lot of good knife makers when it comes to kitchen knives seem to have at some point spent a bit of time in the trenches so to speak, using knives day in, day out and coming up with their own designs to suit the work they do. So you can definitely 'up-sell' some people on a different knife shape/grind to try out and a lot of others will never leave what they were trained and raised on for a kitchen knife. There's a lot of muscle memory and personal perspectives that go into what they want, the weight, length and balance along with their cutting style will often win out so that can be very hard for some people to adapt to and others are out and actively looking for something different for all the opposite reasons.
Personally I like the C grind, I like a French style knife around 20-24cm and I also like a bit of weight behind it, vast majority of what I actually make and sell though is typically a bit shorter, light to very light weight and will often be a classic German style or Gyuto knife with flat grinds.
Nice video and great presentation Tobias 👌🏻
Cheers Peter! Tobias is an excellent presenter - clear and concise! Speak to you again soon!
Wow, this presentation is magnificent. The visual aids and demonstrations were very helpful, and that C-grind chef’s knife looks amazing. I’m always frustrated by food release (or lack of) on my ceramic kitchen knives; now I understand why that’s happening. I’m not a knife maker, but just somebody who enjoys collecting interesting knives and I want to be more intentional about what I’m buying and why.
Hi Josh! Thanks for watching! Really happy to have an enthusiast like you on this channel! Please continue to ask questions - love the feedback! Kindly let us know of any other topics you may be interested in. In the meantime, please do check our other videos that might interest you.
Cheers!
- Vinz
So glad I found this channel as a inspiring knife maker looking to bring joy to tools. Thank you.
Also if you ever find the time to go into more detail about convex grind after the flat grind and how that works would be super appreciated.
Thanks for taking time to comment Brad! Yeah we will happily look into your suggestion thanks!
some very useful info there, thanks for this one, some good info, and timing is good as just playing around with a blade I have forged and trying to make something a bit different to almost everything else just to see if an idea works
Thanks for the feedback Andy! Toying around with different styles is usually a great thing as it lets you discover new stuff, learn from them and keep the fire in knife making going too!
I knew very little about the various grinds & terminology although I'm a hobbyist hand-tool woodworker and carver, and do a bit of food prep. When you were describing the hollow grind, the first thing I thought of were the old cut-throat razors that barbers use sometimes. Extreme hollow grind, paper-thin at the edge and so sharp! I had a couple which I re-discovered a while ago.in a drawer. So thin that they'd rusted away to lace-work at the edges.
i tend to like a flat grind wit about 1/4 forged finish towards the spine or a full flat grind
I can attest to this as I have seen Shaun’s work first hand 😉 Cheers Shaun!
I've always called the s and c grinds as fullers on the standard grinds
Hi Mike! Thanks for the comment! I see that quite a lot too and I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer or wrong terminology for them anyway. Thanks again!
Awesome video, would love to see more details on both the S and C grinds. Maybe a detailed video on each of you have the time. ❤
Hi Brett. You’ve also read our minds 😅 we have a great video on some of these grinds coming real soon!
Well done 👍 thanks
Thanks again Don! Happy to hear you're enjoying the videos!
For most uses, especially for bushcrafting and general purpose use, I have found a Scandi or Sabre grind to be the best.
Hi Gator89 thanks for the comment!
Great Video as always, with great content from Tobias! I believe he covered all. What i would mention that according to the science, the edge geometry has more influence on edge retention than steel ir hardness. In other worlds, a low angle thin edge will outperform in edge retention a way harder and high end steel.
Great info about the S,-grind, C grind was new to me. Similar concept to Katakiriba, but way more useful.
Thanks for the knowledge drop again!
You are very welcome
Hey bud nice to hear from you again! The C-grind really was fascinating to see and guess what, we will be showing you how to make one on the next video! Check out the tool they use as well for their grinding belts: instagram.com/p/Coz0qwatqrd/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= by Tobin Machines
As Tobias said, you are very welcome 😍
Awesome! I'm going to commission a custom knife and this is really helpful!
You’re welcome! I hope you enjoy the other stuff we make too! Cheers buddy!
Excellent clear explanation how how geometry affects performance. I usually do full flat grinds to keep it thin and cutting, might try a flat for better food release
Hello Rob! I was mind blown myself as I didn’t realise there was such a thing as a “full flat” to a “flat” grind and yes, the Gyutos I’ve made (some time ago now) do not have any food release whatsoever and this video explained it to me in minutes why 🤣
Thanks again for watching bud!
@@UKBladeshow Thinking about it, what Tobias calls a flat grind I tend to think of as a sabre grind. Though on a tall, thin chef knife "sabre" doesn't seem the right description.
@@RobanyBigjobz hahaha true but I dis. Heck and they do look identical mate. 🤩
Do Shosui Takeda knives class as Skandi?
Hi Joycey. I am not 100% sure but it doesn't look like they are a Skandi. These are just a version of a 'Flat' grind in my opinion, but the bevel is very short. It is probably useful for cutting vegetables that are hard to get through like squash etc.
@@UKBladeshow Thank you for your reply! Great content
Great video. Also I recommend the geometry of Chinese cleaver, including Taiwanese one. Weight is another dimension of knife geometry, thanks to the wide blade. The benefits of weight are numerous. When combined with a thin grind, such as a half flat grind or one of the thirds, it becomes an efficient cutting machine. Minimal movement is needed to achieve a clean cut, significantly saving energy and improving speed. A thicker blade, on the other hand, turns the cleaver into a dominant tool for all cooking tasks, both inside and outside the kitchen. It can easily crush aromatics, move ingredients, and prevent the food from sticking. The only drawback is that the cleaver requires a bit more practice, though the investment is worthwhile.
Thanks for your input - really appreciate it!
I hold the food with a bridged grip over the blade all the time, cleavers are just too high to bridge
How do you use calipers to determine an edge angle?
Great content from a master Knifesmith...What cutting board material would you suggest?
great video 👍👍
Cheers Leon! Happy to see you around bud.
@@UKBladeshow great content, keep it coming
Very interesting. Given your descriptions of the various grinding profiles, what would the Tormek produce?
Hi Ed! Thanks for watching! The Tormek system is more for sharpening rather than a 'grind profile'. The Tormek creates a baby scandi-grind-like (I'll get shot for saying this) at the edge of the knife to create a super cutting bevel. We have some videos on Tormek coming soon so keep a look out!
Is the poster that you used to explain things in this video available for purchase. I am slightly autistic and things dont catch my eye often, but that poster has me in hyperdrive. I see that you respond to alot of comments, i would love to know. Also props for a nearly perfect video, i have spent hours watching people explain things in this specialty, but you have done by far the best job at it.
Thank you for this excellent video! Where can I get a copy of that poster with all the different cross sections / grinds?
Thanks for the lovely feedback! Tobias made that himself but I do not believe he sells it. Sorry!
@@UKBladeshow Too bad, I probably should try and make one for myself then. I'd love to have a visual reminder of all the different cross sections and grinds on a blade.
I'd like to see more of the device he's grinding with.
You’re in for a treat as that is the next video! Thanks Bill!
Right hand c- grind rules brother
You know it!
Can I buy this poster somewhere?
In your opinion what is the best all round grind/bevel for an outdoorsmans knife ??
What is the best grind for a fillet knife?
Hi Little Bear. I believe hollow grinds are the most common ones for filleting, but also please bear in mind that the heat treatment is equally important for filleting knives as they need to be very flexible.
@@UKBladeshow I got the heat down I just was curious on what grinder would be best for a really good fillet knives and boning knives I'm making
Do you guys plan to make beginner basics videos?
Like these more complicated videos are super informative but I’m out here still struggling on creating a decent bevel on a 4x36 belt sander
Use hand files and grinding stones, its slower but you have total control and get some feeling. With belt sander things can go real bad real fast. But best is to train with mild steel and practice, in my experience it takes around 2 years to get steady hands, learn to consistently polish and maintain geometry.
Hi again Devon thanks for the comment! I will think about making a complete beginner video for sure! We also did a video ages ago when I first my forged knife. I’ll link it here when I find it but it was quite a fun series to show other beginners, including belt grinder skills.
Where can I get that poster?
As a chef watching, this explains alot
I use Gustav's and find them excellent at keeping the edge and i use them every day...i rarely put them on the whetstone, thr gustave steel is sufficient to keep them slicing nice...
I know they're from different areas of Europe, but it's just kinda' funny that you can barely tell this guy grew up with a language other than English, while Arnold S. has been living in the US probably longer than this guy has been alive and he still sounds like a second year English student.
Why do people like the Scandinavian grind for bushcraft knives?
PS On Scandi grinds, the blade stock has to be maximum 3mm for the knife to work properly. If you get 4mm and thicker, the knife begins to work like a sharp stone, you found on the side of the street and that's no matter how good you are on sharpening it, and how sharp you can get it. It's all about geometry. 3mm maximum (1/8th of an inch)
Thanks for sharing! I suppose it will become like an 'axe' if you don't thin it down to 3mm ;)
Hmm... puukko blades are usually 4-5,5 mm thick. With around 20 degrees of the total bevel angle. You make it 3mm or less, it is not good for carving. So, it depens what you want to do with the blade.
@@rikuvastamaki4661 agree, there is no reaso0n not to go past 3mm and still have a very useful blade and no reason why the Scandi grind can't go further up the blade to compensate for extra thickness, all depends on how high the steel is to be able to get a good edge, depends also on the intended use and he obviously has no idea that an axe can be made shaving sharp either
Tell me you know nothing about scandi grinds without telling me you know nothing about scandi grinds 😂
Tell me you have never used knives to,without telling me you haven't used them much. Tru Rob Evans Channel he always mentions exactly my view on knives especially scandi grinds. He's a maker I'm a Metallurgist/Chemist, since the 80's. and I got my degree, out of my passion about knives. Have a knice day hater.!@@feralcruz2093
You did well ignoring single bevel Japanese type geometry, they're useless 😂 (basically a full convex one side and a scandi the other)
OK maybe they can do sushi type stuff, but who likes sushi, right. No really, it is for the ritual aspect of the stuff, I slice sushis much faster with a carving knife anyway. Maybe not perfect glassiness, ok, whatever.
Haha I never use them and i don't miss them 😂 maybe i should still have mentioned them... I mean its not at all complete by any means as there as still plenty of other grinds out there...
well that is specialized grid for specific use, the point is to have very small angle. It also change how its behave while cutting fish. These are such tools you appreciate when you become a master. I also can do everything with store bought knife but with the hand crafted blue paper steel japan knife is such a pleasure to work. I regrind it so it have crazy small edge angle. When you cut onion you dont even hear or feel the layers. Downside is its quite fragile and delicate and one bad move can make significant damage.
@@scasny hoo yeah, they are chippy slicers indeed! I have a pair of low-end Kai fish knives, bad steel at its maximum hrc, huge reprofiling happened... whenever I feel blue from my thick expensive knives, I take my yanagi and some paper, it's incredible !
I am obviously not a sushi person, but steel (oups, did it again) , the deba form is incredible for deboning fishes and slicing a nice sashimi the right way is a higher meditative form and esthetic.
@@tobiashangler Love love your work, many thanks!!! Your shop and skills are my dream. Fluidized sandbed, seriously 😍
No it was sufficient and appropriate for the format, I was just trolling a little bit for the sake of nurishing both the conversation and the algorithm 😇
I can't see a ton of other grinds though, variations maybe?
What an annoying job the camera man has done!
Thanks for the compliment.
perfekt erklärt vielen dank