DCS: AH-64D | VRS and Settle with Power
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
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One common question that I often see asked is why my aircraft crashes into the ground when in a hover or very slow speed. This can be due to one of two reasons, either Vortex Ring state, VRS, or settling with power. I often read folks blaming VRS, but it is often not, and rather settling power.
I’ll try to explain both and how to avoid them. For a detailed explanation of why it happens, I’ll leave that to Casmo and his magic white board.
Before we get started though, a quick PSA regarding a very common question I get: how do I remove the TADS video from the HDU when I want the TADS as my sight? The easiest and fastest way is to just remove the IHADSS by pressing the “I” key. If though you want to retain the monocle, just set your level to zero on the TEDAC.
Okay, back VRS and settle with power. Let’s first review the most important controls. First, from the Pilot, Axis controls, make sure that the collective and lower levers are bound and have full range.
First, we’ll talk about VRS. This happens when three conditions exist. You have low forward airspeed (lower than 16 to 24 kts), your vertical velocity in exceeding 300 feet per minute as indicated on the scale along the right side of the HDU, and insufficient collective power.
If you avoid any one of these three conditions, you should be fine.
The much more common issue that most of you are running into is settling with power. This happens when you are at very low airspeed, or a hover and you are demanding more collective power than the aircraft can generate to produce enough lift. When you are outside of ground effect, over 48 feet, the rotors must generate a lot more lift to maintain, much less, increase altitude. If the aircraft is heavy, there is a high outside air temperature, you are operating at a high MSL, can all lead to power requirements that the aircraft cannot meet.
If you continue to pull back on the collective and demand more power than the engines can give you, you’ll just make matters worse and lose rotor RPMs. The engines of the AH-64D, like the engines in any other DCS helicopter, can only produce so much power before they encounter some sort of limitation, whether that be engine RPM or engine temperature. The engines will limit themselves to prevent damage or failure, so once they reach a limit, they will no longer produce any additional thrust to keep the rotor spinning at the current RPM. However, if you keep increasing the collective, which increases blade pitch angle and drag, the rotor RPMs will begin to slow.
Just like any other airfoil, when you reduce your airspeed over the wing, it produces less lift. Therefore, when your rotor slows down, you produce less lift. Therefore, continuing to pull up on the collective when your rotors are slowing down actually makes the situation worse, and results in falling faster. This can be equated to a fixed wing pilot continuing to pull back on the stick to prevent a stall due to low airspeed, but as a lot of you know from playing our other fixed-wing modules, this exacerbates the stall.
You can see when the engines start limiting themselves due to turbine temperatures by observing the Engine page in flight. As you continue to pull on the collective, as the engines approach 867 degrees Celsius, they will top out and the rotor RPMs will begin to drop. As mentioned, when operating at higher altitudes and/or higher temperatures, like NTTR in the summer, the engines may encounter this limit before the torque reaches 100%. This may lead to rotor RPMs decreasing and a loss of lift.
As mentioned, this can be experienced in the other DCS helicopters as well, such as the Ka-50, Mi-24 or UH-1.
To get out of a VRS or a settling with power situation, the easiest solution is to drop the nose and get forward airspeed. But, before getting in such a situation, keep a very close eye on your VVI when entering a hover or very slow speed flight and don’t let it fall to less than 300 feet per minute.
Outstanding! Wags, do you ever sit back and say "Wow! I cannot believe how far we've come in 20+ years"? Loving the videos and continued knowledge-share on the AH-64, my all time favorite!!
Those hot LZ style landings are deadly. I found turning off the Rolling Stones and CCR has helped a lot.
lol
This comment wins the internet
As a former helicopter flight instructor this was very clearly presented and should be easy for people to understand. Settling (wether you call it ppwer setteling a term derived from navy flight instructors or setteling with power a army term) is when you have insuffcient power avaliable to preform the task you are commanding of the helicopter. Vortex ring state can produce similar effects but is an aerodynamic condition of the rotor system that degrades lift.
Wags youve done a great job my inly critique of all of you videos so far is you need more pre emptive left pedal on pick up 😉 and to anyone reading this because im sure some have gotten into loss of tail rotor effectiveness at some point never let the helicopter do anything you didnt tell it to do and that starts with controlling yaw.
Thanks for the kind words. Agreed on all points. I did not want to get deep into the reasons behind VRS and get glassy-eyed looks.
Where does overpitch come into play? I understand this is again different to settling with (lack of) power, and is specifically when you request too much torque, whereas settling with power is more a stall of the aerofoil on the rotors. There is a really good article online that kind of suggests that terms are used incorrectly by all sides and explains the three terms more in-depth...
"This distinguishes the emergency from a similar uncommanded descent that occurs when there is not enough engine power available to keep the rotors turning. This state could correctly be called "Settling Due To Insufficient Power," but is instead known as Overpitching. In this case, as well, there is a difference in terminology for the same phenomenon. In the U.S., overpitching is known as Low Rotor RPM. (FAA-H-8083-21A, p11-15)" So I would argue that when you demand too much power from the apache in level hover, it is neither VRS or SwP, but overpitch, but I stand to be corrected.
Although arguably it is semantics, and there seems to be no standard definition of terms within the industry. One thing though, settling with power effectively describes VRS, because in VRS there is plenty of power available but you cannot use it. Overpitch whilst not as descriptive, gives a clue as to a cause, and the result of this would be a lack of power from the engine because of a demand for power that isn't available.
Damn, it's all just so confusing lol but I do not like settling with power as it is not an accurate description of either symptoms or cause!
Yeah VRS you are basically descending fast enough to get the rotor blades into the disturbed air your rotor blades created thus reducing lift.
This module is really a new standard for you guys. Beyond good.
I was really surprised at how polished the AH-64 module felt when I first got into it, outstanding when one considers it was day 1 early access. A little disappointed by the bird itself, but that's Boeing and the Army's issue, not ED by any means.
@@AirspaceProductions Well, they kept delaying it for months, so I guess that helped...
And yes, I agree that the bird itself is rather disappointing. I expected it to be not exactly to my taste in terms of handling, but it actually "exceeded my expectations". As you said, that's most likely fully on Boeing though, and I don't think ED needs to fix much about the bird's behavior. At the very least it's worth it for the systems and the multicrewing.
Please keep'em coming. This post release videos are so helpful!
I totally agree!
I was busy crashing into the ground when I received the notification for this tutorial. Perfect timing 👌
Popped the Reverb G2 headset on in VR and all I can say is wow. I sat in the cockpit for an hour admiring the attention to detail.
I am actually crying in Quest 1 with garbage resolution
This module brings a lot of people into helicopter operations who previously had no interest in rotary wing stuff, so the amount of basic questions about helicopter aerodynamics will skyrocket 🙂
Im a helicopter instructor so let me know if you have questions!
Holy cow you guys knocked it out of the park with this, so amazing. It actually feels heavy and deadly. How is that even possible? Great job guys👍😆
really impressed by the post release videos, its even weekend time, and yet youre reading the issues and questions people are having and pumping out videos to help and clarify! great work, hope you get some well deserved rest soon Wags!
Wags is on fire right now ;D. Crazy support and i love it. I cant even keep up with wags and casmos tutorials.
About the trick for turning off the video from the IHADSS when using TADS, it's the brightness button you want to use, not level. If you use level, you will turn off the video on the TDU too, and basically make TADS useless. But use the brightness button while the Helmet is selected sight and you can turn it off just for IHADSS.
I know it might be cliche to say, damn Matt I’d love to have your job but jeez you gotta learn all these modules on top of your other duties.
Thanks for always providing a very clear understanding of the content you push.
These post release videos are exactly what we needed! I think it complements the early access modules very well. Eliminates confusion, and we all learn something new *officially* from Wags.
Thank you so much for taking the time to do this Wags!
Your description is spot on. Your demonstration of it was weird. If you want to practice VRS, it's better to simulate it in normal situations such as hovering or a steep approach to a landing. What I'm saying is there's no reason you're going to 'zero out' your collective while in a hover unless you lost your engine or you're doing a maneuver from altitude. Lower your collective to establish a decent just over 300 ft per minute while you're less than 15kts. Pull in a little power and if you're in VRS you will start to descend even faster and the more power you pull the worse it will get. There are two recovery methods. Lower collective (power) and cyclic forward for airspeed. The other is pull max power (not over-torque) right cyclic with pedal input to keep the nose straight.
Thanks, Matt and the team for all that you guys do.
As always thanks to Wags and Casmo and his whiteboard is how I learned how to fly helicopters!
I found the Huey to be a great starting point before jumping into more powerful helos like the Ka-50 and AH-64. Being all mechanical with no assists, the Huey teaches the pilot to look for signs of VRS and the like early, while fine-tuning a pilot's feel for actions like hovering and turning.
A great module to add to your helo experience, especially if you're just jumping into helos with the AH-64
Wags, my virtual friend, you have the patience of a saint. Thank you for making these videos. Again, in some cases. And as an extension of the oft-unread manual.
We appreciate you.
You are very welcome. I was just a fan once, over a couple decades ago.
That vertical ascent to demonstrate settling with power was so clean and stable. Great flying. I'm also having a lot of fun just learning how to fly the Apache. The muscle memory gained from the Huey aren't quite the same.
Good demonstration. A rule of thumb is to always make sure that as the airspeed gets down to 40 knots or so, that the Rate of descent must be less than 300 ft per minute. Another important factor is that when you go through translational lift, (either speeding up from a hover or slowing to the hover) make sure you are into wind. This is especially important for all the learner helicopter pilots out there....
Nice to know that I'm not the only one smacking into the ground all the time.🤣 Great job Wags and team on the long awaited DCS module!
Hey Wags, send my regards to yourself and the whole team! I haven't had this much fun for a module since the F/A-18C was added! The Apache is really something else, its incredibly amazing and fun! I can't wait for the AGM-114L's and the increased ammo capacity at some point! This thing is gonna be really modular and a whole lot more fun with time to come!
Guys, vertical velocity indicator, one eye there. Model is great, I wish it only goes more to real flight model than soft it down because some cannot fly it. Great work ED. Wags thank you for all.
Thanks Wags, Kirka and I spent at least an hour working out how to avoid this on release day! Very helpful video.
Can't wait for the Stingers' Apache Traps videos! 😉 Cheers, Jar!
@@mdu2112 ha ha thanks Mudu it would be funny
A lot of people have picked the Apache as their first helicopter for dcs. And to those people I recommend Casmotv because he to has some great videos how to fly a helicopter in DCS. It is amazing the physics being modeled in DCS AceCombat this is not!
Cas does great stuff.
Wags does an amazing job of taking very complex stuff that takes days to teach and put it into small chunks.
I’m 17 and going for my private pilot’s license, and my dream for as long as I could remember has been to get into the army and fly this helicopter. So hopefully things work out for me in the end 🤞🤞🤞
HAHAAHAHAHA!!! Whaaa ohhh no!!! lmao. This chopper is kicking my tail but it's providing so much challenge and realism I just keep coming back for more! Thank you for all this. I feel incredibly accomplished when I'm able to correct something new with you and CASMO's help. Even though we loved her, we're not flying Grandma' Janes Longbow anymore!!
i really love the idea of feedback videos based on what you see/hear in social media and forums..keep'em coming
Boss man, one thing i like or dislike, this aint no aircraft like KA50, MI8, or huey cheating on auto pilot, or f16, aint no set trim and go so laundry, or dishes, this is defiantly sticks on, yeah trim it out a bit but still, lol walk away go to fridge get a beer, you way off course, or dead.... i love it, keep up the good work boss man...
Loving these vids targeting specific community questions/issues. Such a thoughtful way to provide content, but also keep the module relevant.
So what you're saying is that if I want to blast open the vault in Caesar's Palace I might have to make 2 trips, yeah? That cool. More flying for me! Great video as always, Wags.
I couldn't possibly have guessed that I would have been this happy with a release. This helo is pure joy. Tier One work ED! 🤘
Hey Wags, viewers here, thanks for all your efforts to help us ;).
To the Torque topic also needs to be said, if you are very hard on the pedals you wil lalso eat up engine power. so try become smooth with it.
Indeed, ham-feet are never a good thing.
Well, maybe in a stew...
Nice video, would you consider making a tutorial regarding the best method(s) to enter a hover in a battle position to engage a target?
Be honored to fly your wing anytime Wags! Thanks for these, and all you guys do.
Thanks Wags! I appreciate the help with all of the problems many are having. Not being a helicopter pilot throws many of us at a severe disadvantage in learning as it is completely different from fixed-wing dyanmics. I appreciate it!
No problem, no doubt such complex aircraft have a steep learning curve.
At least it gives me hope to know i am not the only one struggling with the AH 64. The moment i increase the power to take off, this thing start spinning all over the place. I am there fighting with the Pedal just to keep it straight.
Please see: czcams.com/video/ZGLLDXKecsc/video.html
Slow and steady then use trim.
This module is so awesome with VR headset really feels like you’re wearing the combat helmet 🪖
Excellent video, azzz always! (oops- wrong personality!)
Seriously, though- great video, you've always got top-notch content. I'm currently devouring your F/A18 series. Thanks for your efforts.
In other news, I just purchased the AH-64 module (even though I'm a crappy heli driver) and for the first time noticed ED billing address is in Villars-sur-Glâne, Switzerland. I lived in Marly for a couple of years, just across the Sarine. I worked at a company that is *literally* 500ft down the road from ED. Small world!
Matt, this aircraft is so well done.....fantastic. But.....the CP/G has to move his head a little once in a while....something to let me know he's breathing. Well done.
Wags with the Family Guy reference 😂
Thanks for the video Wags! I'm finding these quite helpful. In this video, around the 5:40 mark, you briefly discuss VRS and mention another video from Casmo which explains it in greater detail. Can you provide a link to that video? I did a search and didn't find anything. Thanks!
Ah, thanks for that Wags, nice explanation.
Yeah Casmo is amazing for learning the meat and potatoes of being a virtual rotorhead
Thank you.
He does a great job and true asset for this community.
sight select switch will also change what is displayed on the ihadds
Thanks for the vid! Was trying to figure out how to stop fast and kept having this happen, I thought it was something with changing the collective too quickly as opposed to dropping altitude too quick, this was a big help.
You can but watch the VVI like a hawk.
Very interesting. Thanks for keeping us on track, Wags.
Outstanding work over the past months guys 👌 Wags your the man, hope you have a nice long rest after everything’s finished ! You deserve it
At 8:00 that "What??? Oh no!!!!" is a severe case of Baltimore dialect; perfect for a John Waters movie :)
Of course the Apache designers put huge priority on minimizing weight at every possible point, but what I'd give for a few hundred more horsepower.
First, loving the new module and your videos. My 64 becomes a basket ball when I'm in the CPG and George is flying and commanded to come to a hover while also being commanded to point to a different heading. I never get any warnings, I just watch the 64 slowly fall to the ground. This happens a lot on the Syrian Weapon range map with the mission default loadout.
Wow! Thanks for this wonderful tutorial Matt! I will love this module absolutely! Your guys works are 💯
Matt! How do you change the load of the Apache to either add/remove the AN/APG-78 through the Mission Editor?
Also, thank you for this wonderful Module!
Mission Editor, aircraft window, right-most tab.
Wags, the team and you exceeded my expectations for this, incredible work, thank you so much!
the temptation of loading that bird with all sorts of weapons and tons of fuel ... then wondering why's this thing so unpowered :D
Phenomenal work all around and thank you for the post release videos on a weekend.
Another well explained video. I was trying to demonstrate VRS in the Apache in my recent stream but wasn’t able to get her into that state. Luckily it only happens when I least want it, lol. 😂
VRS is actually tough to get into in our -64.
@2:00 - so the ways to get rid of TADS overlay on IHADSS is either get rid of IHADSS altogether, or lose it from TEDAC display? What happens if I want to keep it on TEDAC only? Neither option seems like a satisfactory resolution.
Thanks, Wags! I'm having a hell of a time getting into a hover and just generally slowing down with the Apache. I think the Ka-50 spoiled me.
Soft hands and feet.
@@MattWagner It's slowly getting better! I've definitely smacked more than my fair share of tail wheels into the ground while trying to tuck myself in behind a tree or ridge.
8:00 cracked me up 😂 good video on the topic. I noticed this on my first flight but was able to counter the sheer force…
All depends on VVI, gross weight, OAT, and MSL.
Like many others, I have been struggeling with this. Thanks for another great video. Great help. By the way, thank you so much for a great module!
This is a great series to do, Thanks for these update videos genuinely!
You are very welcome.
Thanks to you Wags for your Videos. They are great. I have learn so much from it and enjoy the Ah64 D very much. Its a outstandig Module and i love to Fly it!
The SWP modelling in the Apache is pretty much the best represented in the game. I hope at some point the other helos get some remodel, as the "vrs" to me is a bit too easy to enter. Since the first few flights in the 64 the first two things I look at are the OAT and the Elevation. Then will automatically start to decide, to I need all the pylons filled ( esp if having to to sneak attacks from cover ). One question - the predicted performance torque required, it is always the same for IGE and OGE. OGE would always be higher and the values don't seem to compare as well with what you actually get. PS> will HIT tests be implemented ( add them to the Huey! ) haha
TLDR: Huey and Mi-8 flight models for DCS are very realistic, the AH-64 is not. The Apache needs to be brought to their standard, not the other way around.
While one may think that the latest helicopter to come to DCS would be the greatest, the Apache is very far from having a good flight model at this point in development. The Apache currently has very little power, and Settles with power (Canadian SWP, not FAA SWP) WAY too easily, even with no stores and half fuel. VRS seems to be entered at reasonable limits from the one time I intentionally did it, but I'll need to do more testing. Additionally, the Apache's flight model is beyond broken in some ways. In it's current state, the interaction between controls is terrible. Dropping the collective causes way too much nose down, as well as uncommanded left roll, sometimes to the point of it being unrecoverable. The excess nose down tendency is so out of wack that in an autorotation, dropping collective enough to barely maintain RPM will leave you without enough aft cyclic left to flare. The thing that would cause something similar to this to happen IRL would be weight and balance being out of limits. The uncommanded left roll decides when it wants to be slightly too much, or to the point of throwing the aircraft into a 90 degree bank or going completely uncontrollable. While it is true that there is some drop of the nose when collective is lowered in real life, it isn't like it is on this Apache. If your W&B are good to go, you would have sufficient cyclic to handle it and continue to fly. As for the roll, this doesn't happen on its own IRL. When collective is lowered, it lessens the torque that the tail rotor needs to compensate for. The pilot adjusts for this by applying some right pedal (or less left pedal). While trying to push the tail, the tail rotor is actually pushing the entire aircraft to the right. This is most noticably felt as "translating tendency" when trying to hover. That said, when the pilot inputs his right pedal in forward flight, the tail rotor thrust being reduced would be what causes the left roll, not the dropping of the collective. Even then, it isn't to the degree that is felt in the Apache module for DCS. The Huey and MI-8 modules model these things in shockingly realistic detail, despite being released around 9 years ago. I really hope some more work goes into the Apache, and that it can reach the level of quality of the UH-1H one day. It is early access though, so I'm sure it will be. So at the end of all this I'll say: Do NOT "update" (break) the Huey or MI-8 flight models!
@@aldamico I never said the Huey flight model is bad. Enters VRS too easily. I feel like the MI 8 is the same. I have about 1000 hours riding around in Hueys and some stick time so I know a little bit. he Huey feels like what I remember from flying one. While the Apache does have some quirks ( excess yaw on collective inputs and nose down moments, I have never flown one but perhaps you are correct. I am sure it might be tweaked. If you read my comments, it was towards VRS specifically and nothing more. And, they are just one persons opinion, just as yours is.
I’m not sure but seems to me i have lots of issues with just landing the helo in what feels like a normal manner. I usually approach at 70-80 kts then when i get to the FARP i make a level turn to bleed off the speed. Then when I’m on final approach 20kts or so to the landing area it seems like the ground effect is wreaking havoc with the landing. Where when i get over the pad the bottom just falls out and i end up with this issue of not having enough air to recover.
Please see. czcams.com/video/3G7h0HLANng/video.html
Vuichard recovery, baby! Oh, and you mentioned that most crashes aren't VRS related, which is correct. Pity you didn't explain settling with power!
How do you have extra information in your control indicator at 0:45?
R-ctrl+enter typically.
Helicopter lessons in 10 minutes or less has some good videos on vortex ring state and settling with power, with all the little details explained.
such a basic thing to know for heli pilots but i guess you need to release this because people are first time flying heli with the apache module
Everyone has to start somewhere.
Anybody know what the numbers directly underneath the torque RPM signify (on the left engine display screen)?
@matt wagner I am having an issue with my Reverb G2 in the new update . The forward and aft head movement is locked in place in DCS. it works perfectly in steam VR though. Is this a bug in the new DCS update. The AH-64 is a work of art by the way. so beautiful, you have all done an incredible job!
Outstanding! I was just having another session of easy start, easy hover, easy navigation and BOUNCING LIKE A BASKETBALL attempting to land, and wondered - I wonder if other folks are having trouble with this?
LOL apparently they have, and ED is already all over it.
GREAT JOB WAGS! Super timely video.
Do have to say though - the issue most are running into is in the second half of your video. You demo'd it.... but you really didn't offer much to avoid it.
You offer that 'If you have time to drop the nose' but in your own demo, you didn't have time to do that, either. More importantly, you dropped collective HARD in your demo - but this happens when you drop collective VERY SLOWLY, as well. You demo'd the problem, but notably, didn't demo the solution.
Ultimately, the behavior is not right. And not very realistic.
If the chopper just started dropping, with nothing you could do, because you very slowly dropped collective as you gently came down from hover to landing, this helo would have had MANY crashes, in real life. But they didn't because the helo does not do this in real life. No helo does this in real life.
Have seen a couple Casmo videos where he was clear - SWP and VRS are pretty dramatic/overbearing in the sim, compared to real life.
I'm not a chopper pilot, just a veteran DCS chopper pilot, and this has happened in early flight models of other choppers, too.
You have to avoid VRS and SWP in most choppers, true. But its just not nearly as easy to get into it as was modeled in SEVERAL early versions of the FM for SEVERAL new choppers, in DCS.
The flight model needs some work in this area. To be blunt.
And maybe some consideration to how the default Chopper FM handles this, as it has now had to be fixed in several previous chopper FMs, between EA and release.
Said another way, no MATTER how slowly I take that last 200 ft down, once I get in what should be Ground Effect(additional lift) instead I have NO LIFT, regardless how green the torque indicator is. Suddenly I fall like a STONE. It's not correct.
@@freighttrain7143 The only two choppers in DCS with severe VRS I can think of are either the Hip (rather manageable anyway) or the early UH-60 mod (that was a complete VRS monster).
Have you ever thought that in RL your inner ear is helping you to not get into this condition? Sitting in the chair and looking at the screen you simply can't have any help from it. But even so, the VRS in this module never gave me any problem even once (unlike that early "UH-60"). Maybe you should try practicing to get more info from your peripheral vision? Sure, it won't fully replace the "seat of the pants" feeling, but it's still possible to learn to get by using mostly only the vision.
It's like complaining that a realistic bike or a bicycle sim is "too hard" and "in reality you wouldn't have problem keeping it up". Well, in reality your balancing act is pretty much "automated", lulling you into believing that it's something easy to do. Helicopters don't have it as bad, so it's very much possible to just use your vision in a sim instead.
@@getsideways7257 Thanks for the advise, mate. Practice, over and over, I have. For hours, just landings. And I'm not the Exciteable New Guy here. There are 4 total airframes ED makes that I DON'T own. I have flown them all. I have been doing DCS for 12 years now. And again I've flown every helo in DCS except the Hind. From early access on. 3 of them before had this EXAGGERATED VRS, 3 of them had it fixed, 3 of them had the fix listed in the patch notes. It's not opinion, all these things happened. As to the Apache, I am using the instruments which are far more reliable than looking out the windows. The rate of descent indicator which is in the lower right of the IHADSS don't lie. I can be descending at a rate 1 tickmark below Steady Hover. At the rate I am descending, it takes 2-3 minutes to drop that last 100 feet. THAT SLOW. When I hit what should be Ground effect, that rate suddenly zooms off the bottom of the meter, I fall like a rock and bounce. It's not slightly off, it's completely broken, IF you hit the bug. Meantime, I have made no change in controls, only the interpretation of physics changes, in the engine. Happens time and again. And it's happened before on other models, hence my earlier post explaining exactly that.
I had one smooth landing last night. So that's 1 out of 35, at least. I will spend hours practicing, it doesn't matter, Physics do not suddenly change at 75 ft IRL, just in this game, and just on this early access Helo. So last night, I had one good landing, like butter smooth. I had to pull collective to zero to even verify my tires were down, there was no movement on touchdown at all.
It was awesome.
What did I change? Nothing. Exact same hover to landing steps as before, I just didn't encounter the bug.
What will happen next is I will find the steps to trigger the bug, I will report it, and if its ever seen, ED will patch it out and list it as updated FM or solved an edge case in the FM for the Apache, etc. I will tell you right now, I don't think it's a bug in VRS simulation. It happens 99% of the time when I hit Ground Effect. I think its a bug in Ground Effect simulation for the Apache. Instead of extra lift(Ground Effect IRL) I suddenly have NO LIFT.
I get that you aren't encountering this bug - I wish I was you. I'm sure if everyone was encountering it, it would be higher priority. But as you can see at the beginning of this video, alot of people are having this issue. Some probably are having the ZERO LIFT bug I am seeing quite often.
Everything else in the Apache works great. The only other complaint I have at all is that the tutorials have lots of little mistakes - pretty rough QA there. They might miss a step that makes their steps not work until I added the step they skipped. It happens. And they often will mention a control without mentioning the default keybind for it, or using the exact keybind term - which makes it hard to find and keybind that control, so that could be better.
@@freighttrain7143 Finally, another human being calling it a helo and not a "heli". Anyway, I mostly meant relying more on your peripheral vision to compensate for the lack of G-forces. But as you explained it - it indeed looks like a bug. Since you appear to have it most of the time, there shouldn't be a problem documenting it - preferably with the inputs shown.
If you would say that happens only with this module (or maybe with the Hind as well), that would be one thing, but you are saying that it was happening with some unspecified other modules as well (minus the biggest culprit - the Hip). That sounds rather doubtful... Then again, a video and possibly the conditions / a mission file would help hugely here.
By the way, try doing a hot start (the engines running) on the Marianas map in default weather with nothing on the pylons, no radar, the FMC's interference switched off... Also, about half fuel. I wonder if the problem will persist in that case.
Maybe the bug is triggered by the conditions (if there really is a bug).
As for the rough QA... I'd rather have it this way than wait for another half-year. In fact, I wanted them to release this even sooner. It usually takes *years* for a DCS product to become polished after the release anyway. But if there indeed is such a bug as you described, it's just hilarious. As I said many times before, releasing the thing sooner is BETTER, because the community can help with catching the bugs. If only the said community would report them in a calm manner (which rarely is the case).
@@freighttrain7143 I'm afraid Google discarded your reply (unless it's going to be added later). Did it contain a link maybe?
I guess I mistook you for someone else whom I had a conversation with in another thread, that's why I thought you excluded the Hip instead of the Hind.
Either way, I think you are exaggerating the VRS "problem" in DCS and with this module in particular. Mi-8's VRS is pretty severe - that much I agree, but the rest of the fleet seems fine to me (apart from the Ka-50 that I barely ever touch, so I can't comment on that).
Again, don't you think you are not taking into consideration that in a real helo your vestibular system would force you to arrest an onsetting quick descent way before the descent would develop into a full blown VRS? Pretty much like it acts in response to any fall... In a sim you can't feel these G-forces, so you are not as quick to react - and it's harder to learn to do it instinctively. This also can explain why Casmo and other real pilots could be having a problem with it - they are too dependent on the vestibular system.
Sadly, thanks to how CZcams notifications are working I couldn't read the rest of your message.
could we have another video with the control indicator displayed so we can see where your cyclic and rudder pedals inputs are for hover take off and landing i am having trouble taking off and landing
Thank you!.. 🍻🚁
Wags, do you mind sharing your joystick saturation and curve setting for both pitch and roll and pedals… if you’re using any. Thank you!
good stuff! i'd like to see a how-to video of going into a hover from level flight. or any other maneuvers with some tactical application.
I was wondering if you could tell me why I don't see the option at all in mission editor for theFCS .I've tried all day😢
Awesome video Wags! I may or may not have needed it ;) Thanks!
Thanks Wags! really appreciate these videos.
Hey Wags! First off, wow! What an amazing project! You guys did a great job! So excited for this! As far as the rotor droop, I feel like with high/hot/heavy operations, the T700 would hit DECU temp limits before you hit Torque limits which would cause the droop. That being said, are certain functions of the DECU modeled? Such as DECU limiting lockout, for example? Again, this is awesome and thank you and Eagle Dynamics for all your hard work!
Great Video Mr. Waggs.. Erm, Anything coming up about the Radio Systems in the Apache ?
I am having a problem getting into a hover because I am used to watching the speed on the Shark and on the Apache I need to watch the symbology and not the speed.
Symbol wise, just VVI and velocity line / acceleration cue.
According to the FAA VRS and settling with power are essentially the same thing.
It depends who you talk to.
any protips to prevent seesawing back and forth when transitioning from forward flight to hover ?
Just practice and maybe adjust curves a bit if you are over controlling.
ive been wondering why the apache you are flying in these vids wags seems to have the auto pilot stability info like what the hind has but the in game apache dosn't? is there a reason as to why the one you are flying here and what we have in game seem to be different versions?
It has nothing to do with an autopilot. It a controls channel indicator.
@@MattWagner ah okay, why dosnt it show up with the live build then?
@@n1njat0rak47 It's there in the Options / Misc. / Controls Indicator box.
Great clarification video, the ongoing support is great. Last video had some funny fluffs, this one is polished. Does that mean you actually got some rest?? Well deserved.
I've had that happen a couple of times when I was in the CPG Seat. I thought it was George's fault. It must have been the commands that I gave him.
Thanks again for the hard work! Had a great night of flying. How do you get the IHADS glass to disappear? I want the info to stay there. Your last video you were able to use it without the glass am curious I can’t find it in the controls.
Main menu. Settings. Special. AH64D
One of the settings hides the HMD while leaving the symbology
Thank you so much I didn’t even think to check there, have a great weekend!
Great information - Super fun so far! I need some help with the force trim options!
Thanks Waggs. I knew about this because of the huey. Took me a little while to learn. But I don't think this hell is bad with vrs. Not like the huey.
Our SMEs are happy with VRS and the -64.
Best way to defeat vortex ring state that I've noticed is to move in any direction to clean air and make sure RPM is good (lower collective slightly until low RPM warning stops)
Yes, hence my ETL comments.
@@MattWagner I replied too early! :) Thanks for all the videos wags, esp the controls one. They are easy to follow and even for a veteran of DCS I did learn new things! Well done!
Look into the Vuichard Recovery :)
@@Devilscomrade My pleasure, have fun!
Thanks Wags!
Discounts in steam please? I swear I'll buy 8 modules with a single purchase
It has the same 20% discount applied, same price as the eShop.
'What, Oh noooo!' Literally my 1st 6 take off's
An important part of settling with power is that people will pull more collective to try and get out of it, thats the exact wrong thing to do. Drop the collective and push forward on the stick to gain air speed.
Can you make a definitive guide to trim? If not, quick question. Can i trim the cyclic and rudder?
This may help: czcams.com/video/ZGLLDXKecsc/video.html
I purchased the Apache mod when it first came available but it's not in mod manager
Please contact our tech support
Its flying like a helicopter and people have gotten used to/don't understand how that works so there instant response is 'it is bugged!'.
it's not.
Human nature to assume it's "the other guy".
Is the immediate speed of the clockwise rotating torque accurate? I feel like if the collective moves up anything faster than a snail's pace the helicopter immediately starts rotating almost uncontrollably. Even worse when the force trim up switch is used and I want to increase collective, in which case there is not only rotation but also yaw and roll. Not sure how the trim switch down should work, but it doesn't appear to do anything to cancel the trim such as the Huey does.
There is no trim re-set in the Apache, the down button is to cancel the other 2 hold modes which at moment only one is modeled. 👍
I wonder if the chaingun lifted itself into its hidey hole after that ground pound :)
i would like you to add the commands and show the keybind commands of what ur gonna use. instead of just saying what ur doing. it helps us so much to see that. and kinda explain whats going on. like the hellfire and AI binds, and such. great youre showing us, but doesnt help we dont know what ur pushing and what the command is called.
O.k. DId not buy it yet. I like the countdown timer for yellow zone EGT. :)