How to air-layer any plant with a high rate of success

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  • čas přidán 30. 07. 2020
  • In this video I show you a few tips on how I get a high rate of success from my air layers.
    Thank you for joining my channel. I started my gardening channel based on my collection figs, at one point I had over 350 varieties in Seattle. Now I've expanded my channel to Bonsai and Koi.
    Visit my blog for more info: My Blog is always more up to date than my youtube channel
    seattlegardenfruit.blogspot.com
    Please join my fig group:
    / 1063714656990437
    Instagram: binbin99?h...
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    My Garden Store: seattlegardenfruit.blogspot.c...
    #plantpropagation #figs #airlayer
    chương trình trái cây và làm thế nào để phát triển cây vả. cây sung

Komentáře • 202

  • @BladeMasterz916
    @BladeMasterz916 Před rokem +32

    Another tip. Feed them water for a few hours before cutting it off. I use to make clones for MJ, when I first started. I made the mistake of planting the rooted clones and they all dehydrated even though I feed them plenty of water after potting them. It just ups the odds a bit more in favor of a good outcome.

    • @saundra1571
      @saundra1571 Před měsícem +2

      Feed them water for a few hours before cutting it off?? Do you mean water the mother tree prior to cutting off the routed branch?

    • @geriannroth449
      @geriannroth449 Před 7 dny +2

      ​@saundra1571 maybe he means injecting some water into the airlayered pods

  • @JohnDoe_88
    @JohnDoe_88 Před 3 lety +15

    What works great for me is taking a 2 liter bottle, cutting the top off and cutting a seam down the side that makes a hole at the bottom of the bottle where I can stick a fig(or other edible branch) through the bottle then I tape the seam back shut and fill it with soil and it's like the plant is rooting right into a pot for me which I can cut the branch from the base later once it has shown roots. Then it's already air layered into a reusable pot. Working well for me

  • @Mc1Schol
    @Mc1Schol Před 2 lety +20

    I like your video about air layering. As a hobby I also do air layers on my plants with success. This only functions during the growing season, so summer cuttings. Air-layering is the same as layering, in which shoots of the plant are bent to the ground and covered to root. However, with air-layering I bring the soil to the shoots and fix the soil around the shoot with plastic foil or trays. Difference between your method, I do use (sphagnum moss) moss or grass clippings mixed with potting soil or well-wetted garden soil. Then I use empty salad bowls with lids in which I fill the soil mix. I cut both sides of the container shallowly crosswise short below the edge. I place the container tightly around a branch, remove a narrow ring of the bark under a leaf node and then fill the container around the branch and then close the container with a lid. By 6 to 8 weeks after the procedure, the cutting can become sufficiently rooted to separate from the mother plant. After loosening, I partially remove the leaves and place the cutting in a sufficiently large pot with soil mix in a sheltered place, out of direct sunlight under a shelter. When the growth of the cutting returns, and roots grow out of the pot, I move the cutting to a large pot and place it in full sun. The cuttings then grow like the adult plant. Flower and bear fruit the same year and grow into full-fledged plants. Good luck with your plant hobby.

    • @GardeningwithDave
      @GardeningwithDave Před 8 měsíci +1

      This makes sense now why my tree didn’t successfully grow roots 😂😂😂. Thank you for sharing your incredible trips❤. Cheers from California 🎉.Happy gardening. -Dave

    • @josefavela1654
      @josefavela1654 Před 5 měsíci

      Do cuttings also bare fruit the same year? When you cut a branch and stick it in some soil. I tried looking for an answer on which provides fruits fastest. Cuttings vs Layering/Air Layering.

    • @Mc1Schol
      @Mc1Schol Před 5 měsíci

      cuttings might bare fruits the same year if flowering already, but fruits can fall off because root system is not that much devollepped it can support all those fruits. More chance next year fruits.@@josefavela1654

  • @great0789
    @great0789 Před 4 lety +28

    That simple little trick... performed enough times... can literally feed the world.

  • @pwu8194
    @pwu8194 Před 4 měsíci +2

    Figs are very easy to propagate. I just cut the mature branches after they have gone dormant, and stick them into the soil. They will grow leaves as soon as spring comes.

  • @curtisnt
    @curtisnt Před 4 lety +10

    you're an air layer fanatic! ill definitely go below a node for my next air layer project. thanks for the video!!

  • @JohnDoe_88
    @JohnDoe_88 Před 3 lety +5

    Appreciate you sharing the process. Figs are the easiest to root of all my edibles

  • @ashreebird
    @ashreebird Před 3 lety +4

    beyond all the great air layering info (super helpful, thank you so much) i love the kitty litter scoop for soil 🙀 what a great idea!

  • @masblackwell8205
    @masblackwell8205 Před 4 lety +1

    Aloha Ben, You have just filled this weekend for me. I have been wanting to prune back my brown turkey and root the cuttings. This will eliminate one step. Thank You 🙏 mas

  • @acrelake
    @acrelake Před 4 lety +1

    Perfect timing, this weekend I'm going to air layer some shoots my potted fig has shot up.

  • @TrialanError
    @TrialanError Před 2 lety

    Thank you Ben. I've been watching you since day 1.

  • @msantero5845
    @msantero5845 Před 4 lety +4

    I just tried my first air-layer with an Arabian Lilac. Only one little node after 6 weeks with moss but no rooting hormone. On top of that it wan’t next to a node. Thanks for the information. This will help adjust on my next try.

  • @zaviahopethomas-woundedsou9848

    Perfect timing! I was going to do some air layering this coming week on a japanese maple, blueberries, bay laurel and pineapple guava! Thanks for posting this.

    • @glendathegoodwitch6987
      @glendathegoodwitch6987 Před 3 lety

      How did it go with the Japanese Maple?

    • @zaviahopethomas-woundedsou9848
      @zaviahopethomas-woundedsou9848 Před 3 lety

      @@glendathegoodwitch6987 I tried one and it did not work. I will be trying more this summer.

    • @isaiah4478
      @isaiah4478 Před 2 lety +1

      @@zaviahopethomas-woundedsou9848harder to root species require stronger rooting powder

  • @Tammy10018
    @Tammy10018 Před 3 lety

    Definitely going to try this. Thank you

  • @TheMurpleMan
    @TheMurpleMan Před 3 lety +1

    Awesome video, very helpful. Down here in Beacon Hill 'bout to give her a go for the first time on some maples and pears in the yard.

  • @howtowithelizabeth7513
    @howtowithelizabeth7513 Před 2 lety +5

    Use the end of the zip tie and push it into where it holds
    Push down the little flap that wedges into the grooves and u can reuse them
    Great job in the rooting u did

  • @MomijiEn
    @MomijiEn Před 4 lety

    Cool techniques! Gotta try it - Thanks for sharing!

  • @entvisual
    @entvisual Před 3 lety +5

    *BEN THIS IS* PHENOMENAL I really enjoyed watching this video so peaceful friend! :)

  • @rosebrad9116
    @rosebrad9116 Před rokem

    Can't wait to try, thanks.

  • @shaolinshadowsoldier
    @shaolinshadowsoldier Před 4 lety +1

    Great video Ben!

  • @wahinenuiloa
    @wahinenuiloa Před 5 měsíci

    Awesome video....simple instructions..great tips. Mahalo

  • @georgevalenzuela2489
    @georgevalenzuela2489 Před 3 lety

    Great video! Thanks for sharing!

  • @Dretired
    @Dretired Před 2 měsíci

    Good demo and tips.

  • @kevinb7098
    @kevinb7098 Před 3 lety

    Great video, thanks for the tips

  • @joshturner5165
    @joshturner5165 Před 3 lety

    Classy music. Thanks for the video

  • @majidaattaplantscare4582

    So beautiful plant s

  • @donabellahardeneravlogs790

    Great result👍

  • @roncastro7195
    @roncastro7195 Před 4 lety

    Cool Thanks Ben

  • @melissaharland5609
    @melissaharland5609 Před 5 měsíci

    Superb serene n expedient video info 👑

  • @southernlivinggardenbymama9

    Missed your videos! Please do more fig tastings.😀

  • @loyaluwang4228
    @loyaluwang4228 Před rokem +2

    The most important thing about layering is the time of the year suitable for the particular plant.

  • @derekosborn
    @derekosborn Před 4 lety

    Very helpful. THX!

  • @WorldofBonsai
    @WorldofBonsai Před 4 lety +2

    Very good video

  • @fuyu5979
    @fuyu5979 Před 4 měsíci +1

    Just watched ur upload on air laying. Very interesting n informative. Always wanted to learn HOW to air lay coz I have an unusual hibiscus plant that might be slowly dying so want to air lay it before it completely dies. Will try ur method n technique. Hope it works for me. Kudos for the vid. New subscriber because of this vid. Anticipating ur next one. Peace

  • @GraftingTactick
    @GraftingTactick Před 2 lety

    Awesome ☘️ 🌱🌿

  • @dausia
    @dausia Před 2 lety

    Nice…..now going to try your method……hope it works :)

  • @TitoSpeaks
    @TitoSpeaks Před 2 lety +2

    Pretty awesome. I like the node idea. Im going to try on my dragons head maple. I really got stuck when I saw the pine. I thought you were about to do something earth shattering. LMK if you figure that one out. I don't think its really possible, but I'd love to see it.

  • @greglongenecker1772
    @greglongenecker1772 Před 4 lety +15

    I tried it on four of my Japanese maples without a single one rooting 😡 I noticed that you also used a lot less sphagnum moss then I used, and I usually use thicker stems than you did with no leaf nods on them .....so I’ll try it your way and see what happens......thanks Ben :)

    • @MikeHunt-lz2hq
      @MikeHunt-lz2hq Před 3 lety +3

      Has to have leaf nodes or there is no material to grow roots out of

    • @MikeHunt-lz2hq
      @MikeHunt-lz2hq Před 3 lety +1

      Unless it's a willow tree that is lolitll grow roots anywhere but where the nodes are

    • @TheMightyYak
      @TheMightyYak Před rokem +3

      @@MikeHunt-lz2hq layering at a node increases the chance of success, but you can still layer successfully without.

    • @rayseto2724
      @rayseto2724 Před rokem

      Any success?

  • @wizard-prism
    @wizard-prism Před 3 lety +1

    Thanks Ben this is really helpful. Someone I recommended I use this technique on my Cornus Kousa (Japanese Dogwood) is it best to do this in the spring?

  • @robertlesaca4776
    @robertlesaca4776 Před 3 lety +2

    Figs are easy. I just stick the branch into a pot of soil and it grows. I don't even have to air layer.

  • @demontalembertjean1432
    @demontalembertjean1432 Před 4 lety +2

    Most interesting ! how do you put water in your air layer ? At which period do you air layer your pine ?

  • @Randommeemes
    @Randommeemes Před 3 lety

    Awesome u got new subscriber got love wisdom.thank u one question can I do.this on mimosas tree too will.do one on fruit tree n fig tree thank for wisdom teaching

  • @FuckThisSiteNow
    @FuckThisSiteNow Před rokem

    You use the exact same sphagnum I use for Japanese maples 👍

  • @damianrico2433
    @damianrico2433 Před 3 lety

    Really liked the video, I’ve never done any propagation but I am super interested. Do you know if it will work on pecan trees?

  • @iPheek
    @iPheek Před 4 lety +1

    Can you air layer a bald cypress as well? Planing to do one in spring!

  • @user-li5wk2yq4b
    @user-li5wk2yq4b Před 3 lety

    Pines are very hard to root via air layering, almost impossible. Good luck with that Black Pine. Nice vid.

  • @oliviercarez
    @oliviercarez Před 2 lety +1

    Hi, nice video.. Do you also girdle or make light scratches on the cuttings? Or only apply clonex on the nodes of these cuttings? Thanks in advance and best regards, Olivier

  • @bertmarifosque1735
    @bertmarifosque1735 Před 3 lety +1

    Great technique! I live in VANCOUVER, BC.
    We have similar weather. What month is the best time to air layer fig trees?
    Thanks.

  • @bobbytran9954
    @bobbytran9954 Před 2 lety +1

    Hi Ben is there a good time to air layer a thick peach branch in so Cal? Thanks for the tip

  • @albongardens3199
    @albongardens3199 Před 4 lety +3

    What is the potting mix you use? Do you mix it yourself?

  • @irishkazolotse
    @irishkazolotse Před rokem +1

    Would this work on Korean lilac or any other lilac? I need bigger blooming bushes sooner, and I dont have lots of space under the bush to layer in the ground... nice technique, thank you for sharing!

  • @Banasuka
    @Banasuka Před 4 lety

    Clonex
    good

  • @bonsai.ciamik
    @bonsai.ciamik Před 4 lety +1

    You keren good # greetings careurbonsai🙏👍🏼🍂

  • @tavyfavorite1149
    @tavyfavorite1149 Před 3 lety +1

    I love this technique, did the same thing but somehow the birds peck on it. Torn the foil and left holes into the plastic bag. I have Notice white tiny flys( termite or tiny ants ate the roots) as I unwrap the whole air layer branch. I live on a 70 year old citrus lot, birds are smart here and so I 've realized using cheese cloth is best. Yes, I have done this in the past 6 years and got good successful results in all my fruits trees . Do you know why or what are those white tiny fly looks like ant, eating kill the roots?. Thx

  • @davidvong1372
    @davidvong1372 Před 3 lety

    Been following and watching all your videos. In the Seattle area as well. Will you be opening a nursery ?

  • @ferko6
    @ferko6 Před 3 lety +1

    Great video 👍. I'm not sure that you can airlayer pines.

  • @stevencw0201
    @stevencw0201 Před 2 lety

    Which Ginkgo branches are suitable for air-layering? What is the rooting rate?
    May I air-layering a fruit-bearing branch (around one inch in diameter)? Thanks

  • @thegreenmanalishiyamadori371

    Figs are very easy to airlayer because they can be propagated from cuttings...
    I wonder if it works on difficulties like oaks and beech???

    • @LAyangfamily
      @LAyangfamily Před 3 lety +1

      Air layering is always better than cuttings even though fig is easy to root no matter what method you use. I have many videos talking about fig propagation. For those plants hard to propagate using cuttings such as some hydrangea varieties or rose 🌹cuttings (black stems, infections), air layering is no 1 to have a try.

  • @RegularJohntv
    @RegularJohntv Před 10 měsíci +1

    Ross mentioned in one of his videos about how if you let an air layer go dormant then remove it, it will have significant less stress. Would you agree with this or no.

  • @AmputatedToddler
    @AmputatedToddler Před 3 lety

    Can you show us how you do this on junipers, step by step please

  • @josefavela1654
    @josefavela1654 Před 5 měsíci

    Do cuttings also bare fruit the same year? When you cut a branch and stick it in some soil. I tried looking for an answer on which provides fruits fastest. Cuttings vs Layering/Air Layering.

  • @squeakydmicrofarm6546
    @squeakydmicrofarm6546 Před 3 lety +2

    Your music 🎶 is on point well done with great content! Great job ben.

    • @danspencer8463
      @danspencer8463 Před 2 lety +1

      Yeah I'd like to know what music choice that is

  • @the0prynce
    @the0prynce Před 3 lety

    Where is the girdling done in relation to the node? I can't see the node in the example.
    I love the style and feel of this video!

    • @MikeHunt-lz2hq
      @MikeHunt-lz2hq Před 3 lety

      Just bellow the node your trying to force roots out of maybe an inch or half inch below unless it's a small branch then a half or quarter inch

  • @beltoftruth56
    @beltoftruth56 Před 3 lety

    Looks much easier and quicker then using seeds

  • @letsbacktoallohswt5633
    @letsbacktoallohswt5633 Před 3 lety +1

    Mr. Ben, hope you put subtitle bahasa indonesia, so the indonesian farmers will thank you a lot, and your subscriber grow more and more,insha Allah. Thank you very much.

  • @geriannroth449
    @geriannroth449 Před 7 dny

    What would you substitute the Spagnum moss with?

  • @bobmarley965
    @bobmarley965 Před 19 dny

    Beloved i am in the uk, what can i use to do the air layering, i dont have cococore?

  • @jeremiahshine
    @jeremiahshine Před 3 lety

    Is it the acidic nature of the hormone that breaks the cell walls? Some swear by vinegar and such.

  • @bobmarley965
    @bobmarley965 Před 19 dny

    what are you using in the mix? name something i can get in the uk

  • @Athabina
    @Athabina Před 4 lety

    Very good Ben! Is it necessary to girdle the branch? John C in Victoria

    • @BenBSeattle
      @BenBSeattle  Před 4 lety +2

      Not on figs so much but other varieties yes. Figs are easy

  • @60sVblogs
    @60sVblogs Před 2 lety

    I live in New England, East coast. What is the best time for Air Layering?

  • @romanmetcalf4116
    @romanmetcalf4116 Před rokem

    Are you skinning the node or just applying the hormone to the bark?

  • @vincealmendras2743
    @vincealmendras2743 Před 2 lety

    If the moss get dried, how do you water it? Thanks

  • @pablitozm1
    @pablitozm1 Před 2 lety

    In the text of the video you wrote number 1 sphagnum peat moss. but in the video application it shows that you are using sphagnum moss. Which of the two is the one we sholuld use? Sphagnum peat moss? or Sphagnum moss? because there is a big difference between one and the other. Thank you.

  • @rosiemejia4898
    @rosiemejia4898 Před 2 lety

    Sir, how many days does it take to have roots ?

  • @linda83nilsson
    @linda83nilsson Před 3 lety

    What’s the downside of letting an air layer sit in the tree too long? From what I’ve understood it’s recomended to let the air layer sit for 6 - 8 weeks before cutting it. Too short, you don’t get enough roots, but if you wait 10 - 12....14 weeks....provided that the plastic bag is big enough.

  • @claudehendry3644
    @claudehendry3644 Před rokem

    i need to ask you a question about florida mangroves please sir

  • @taoyen1579
    @taoyen1579 Před 2 lety

    hi, will this work for a FUYU Persimmon tree?

  • @nvcken
    @nvcken Před 11 měsíci

    which rooting hormon you use?

  • @elvegas8752
    @elvegas8752 Před 9 měsíci

    Hey ben, im in México and our current weather is day time 76 and pm 56 degrees Fahrenheit. Think i can still air layer a peach tree?

  • @edlopez5768
    @edlopez5768 Před 3 lety

    Will this new "tree" produce for example an avocado tree? They take years to fruit.

  • @michaelbahr7267
    @michaelbahr7267 Před 4 lety +1

    i generally leave them out of the direct sun for at least a week. How long do you keep yours in the shade? left a like

    • @BenBSeattle
      @BenBSeattle  Před 4 lety +4

      Until I see new buds then I know its in the clear

  • @mhr9998
    @mhr9998 Před 2 lety

    Ben, Before you transplant the new rooted tree, do your ever give the roots a bath with some Hydrogen peroxide-water, then another with mychorizae. I’ve been doing this with seedlings and the results have also been impressive. I am trying this on Nectarine and Pear trees after watching this video. Thanks

    • @mhr9998
      @mhr9998 Před 2 lety

      @@KB-pk8cn I used the word bath, but I’m using a very small spray bottle and I only use 5 drops of 3% h2o2 in it. I spray the roots directly and the dirt fall off easily. Then I dust the roots directly in mycorrhizae and cover with fine soil near roots. Once they get on with their growth spurt - they Thrive. Today I am air layering three new branches on a 3 year old Lemon Tree from seed. I expect new growth branches will root even faster.

  • @Elkins24
    @Elkins24 Před 3 měsíci

    What is the brand of Clonex that you use?

  • @paleprod
    @paleprod Před 3 lety +1

    Hi, I have just one quick question:
    Is it safe to mix spaghnum moss with bonsai soil? It seems that the moss buried under the soil would never dry as fast as the soil at the top of the pot. In that way you can drown these new roots pretty easily. Correct me if I'm wrong please.
    Ps. maybe it depends on what type of spaghnum moss you use? (dead/alive etc). Let me know please, Thanks!

    • @BenBSeattle
      @BenBSeattle  Před 3 lety +1

      I suppose so, but I think it would be unnecessary. Just keep the moss more moist if its summer and less when its spring

  • @WILLY52368
    @WILLY52368 Před 3 lety

    So why every video I see is about fig or lemon, can it be used on any tree or bush or does it have to be a lemon or a fig tree?

  • @buzzscreen8365
    @buzzscreen8365 Před 27 dny

    Can I use Cocopeat instead of spagnum moss?

  • @beltoftruth56
    @beltoftruth56 Před 3 lety

    My rooting hormone is powder does that work the same

  • @love81457
    @love81457 Před 9 měsíci

    Would air layering be successful on a 8foot tall parlor palm?

  • @cycleguy417
    @cycleguy417 Před 3 lety

    I’m not sure of the reason for girdleling?

  • @JPAG0806
    @JPAG0806 Před 3 lety

    Great video from the Netherlands👍At what temperature during the 4..8 weeks?
    Regards, Jan

    • @BenBSeattle
      @BenBSeattle  Před 3 lety

      out temps range in the spring between 15-26C in the spring

  • @stephencopland1053
    @stephencopland1053 Před 4 lety +1

    Can you do it mid summer or is early to mid spring the only time after there's no chance of frost

    • @BenBSeattle
      @BenBSeattle  Před 4 lety +2

      Any time but watch your micro climate. Best to do it in the spring. The hot summer may kill your new roots.

  • @gregry111
    @gregry111 Před 3 lety

    I've tried this with both cannabis and with a persimmon tree. I started them around the first of March. It is now july sixth and neither one have developed roots. I don't think this even works. I live in California's central valley. It's growing zone nine.

  • @velvanae
    @velvanae Před 2 lety

    I have a bay laurel that is about a meter tall with two smaller branches toward the bottom (about 18 cm long) and a second trunk that just started last summer that is about 12 cm . I want to top it so the second trunk catches up a bit. One of the branches will be a sacrificial branch (probably air layer later) because they are on the same side about 5 cm apart. Since I live in a climate that bay laurel will not do well in the outdoors due to the winters I want to form it into a Bonzai (Already noticed Nebari forming nicely) due to limited space in my house. My question is can I air layer several places on the single long section at the same time or would it be better to do a section at a time from year to year. Also since the nodes are so close together on the bay laurel is it better to include several of them or just try to catch a single one. Thank you so much for your help in advance!
    I also watched your video on getting thicker trunks faster and several of those methods I am planning on using for my jade plants as well as my mulberry bush . (Also going to air layer the mulberry and form it into Bonzai for outside), and of course the bay laurel. I of course will have more plants than I can handle so I am going to share them with my landlady because she is awesome, and my neighbor because she is awesome.

    • @chompers11
      @chompers11 Před rokem

      Howd the bay turn out

    • @velvanae
      @velvanae Před rokem

      @@chompers11 It didn't. Something killed the tree.

  • @BushImports
    @BushImports Před 2 lety

    That's not a kitty liter scoop, it's just a general purpose scoop, I have one my mother used for rabbit feed, I use it for potting soil and whatever, I love mine too, they work great.
    Fig trees generally will root really easy just from cuttings at least the ones I've tried have.
    Have you ever tried air layering an Indian patchouli plant, will they air layer? Thanks man.

  • @seth7745
    @seth7745 Před 3 lety

    The biggest issue I have with air layering is with plants that have cane like growth and one stem, such as Tetrapanax papyrifer. What happens is there are no leaves or branches below the cut to feed the rootstock and the rootstock dies before the top roots. Any suggestions on how to deal with this type of plant where girdling isn't an option?

    • @elloohno1349
      @elloohno1349 Před rokem

      Wouldn’t it be a better candidate to grow from a cutting ?

  • @Vinnie-cv5qv
    @Vinnie-cv5qv Před 3 lety +2

    I have tried air layering a few different trees, from japanese maple to fruit trees. I watched as many videos on the technique and instructed to remove the cambium. I did this in the Spring and shortly all the branches dried up. I noticed in your video that you remove the bark and scratch the cambium in order for rooting hormone to penetrate. Am I correct that you do not remove the cambium? I would like to try again but seeing all those dead branches was discouraging.

    • @BenBSeattle
      @BenBSeattle  Před 3 lety +1

      I remove the bark and cambium but not the sapwood

    • @LAyangfamily
      @LAyangfamily Před 3 lety +1

      I always remove bark and cambium to avoid any bridge formation.

    • @1cleandude
      @1cleandude Před 2 lety

      Clear as mud!🙏

  • @melissaharland5609
    @melissaharland5609 Před 5 měsíci

    BEAUTIFUL 🫂

  • @DarrellWeavercom
    @DarrellWeavercom Před 4 měsíci

    Ben, hopefully, you see this comment & can respond. Could I use black plastic without aluminum foil, especially if I'm trying to air layer in the wild? I've reasoned that using black plastic without aluminum foil would reduce the chances of animals trying to pick at it, & it would help keep humans from seeing the air layer & trying to take it off to "protect the tree."

  • @dchambers986
    @dchambers986 Před 2 lety +1

    Isn't it interesting the one with the most roots was the that broke... coincidence?