Thracian Language & The History of Thracology - Тракийски език - Limba tracă
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- čas přidán 4. 03. 2024
- This video was a tough one, and at times, it felt like a chore. However, now that it's ready to go, I'm really happy with what I've discovered about Thracian. Though, many questions regarding the language remain unanswered. Some of the most important ones include: What exactly is Thracian's relationship with Dacian? Is it a separate language or merely a dialect? What about those disregarded theories regarding Illyrian and Phrygian connections? Should they be revisited? Probably.
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📜 Dive into the enigmatic world of the Thracian language with Learn Hittite! Join us as we explore the fascinating history and research surrounding the ancient Thracians and their language.
🗺️ From the origins of the Thracian people to the geographical extent of their territory, discover the clues that scholars have uncovered over the years.
💡 Explore the four stages of Thracian language research, from its earliest collations to modern digital analyses.
🌐 Delve into the linguistic characteristics of Thracian, from its Indo-European roots to all that what know about its unique phonological and grammatical features (which isn't a lot).
📚 Uncover the debate over Thracian's external relationships, including proposed connections with Dacian, Illyrian, and Phrygian - many of these relationships, in my eyes, need revisiting.
🤔 Examine intriguing artifacts like the Ezerovo ring, Linear B tablets from Pylos and Knossos and decipher the mysteries of Thracian inscriptions. 🕵️♂️
Join us on this linguistic journey as we shed light on one of history's most intriguing languages! Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share your thoughts in the comments below! 📝
#protoindoeuropean #ThracianLanguage #LanguageHistory #Linguistics #AncientLanguages #Research #IndoEuropeanLanguages #LinearB #Bulgaria #Romania #Thrace #Dacian #Daco-Moesian #BalkanLanguages 🏛️
Linear B Tablets:
calibra.classics.cam.ac.uk/tablet/search
calibra.classics.cam.ac.uk/Tablet/PY/654
Selected Sources (In approximate video order)-
Crossland, R. A. (1982). Linguistic Problems of the Balkan Area in Late Prehistoric and Early Classical Periods. In J. Boardman, I. E. S. Edwards, N. G. L. Hammond, & E. Sollberger (Eds.), The Cambridge Ancient History (pp. 834-849). chapter, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Dumitrescu, VL. (1982). The Prehistory of Romania from the earliest times to 1000 B.C.
In J. Boardman, I. E. S. Edwards, N. G. L. Hammond, & E. Sollberger (Eds.)
Mihailov, G. (1986). On the character of the Thracian language: Onomastic problems. In Fourth International Thracian Conference (Boston, 7-10 June 1984) (pp. 379-388). Milan.
Mallory, J. P., & Adams, D. Q. (Eds.). (1997).
Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture. London, Chicago: Fitzroy Dearborn.
⭐Yanakieva, S. (2018). The Thracian Language.
Journal of Indo-European and Thracian Studies, 25.
Paliga, S. (2017). Thracian v. Dacian (Daco-Moesian): How many 'Thracian languages' were there spoken in the Antiquity? Ancient Thrace: Myth and Reality: The Proceedings of the Thirteenth International Congress of Thracology, Kazanlak, September 3-7, 2017, Volume Two.
⭐Dechev, D. (1957). Die thrakischen Sprachreste. Vienna.
Dana, D. (2014). Onomasticon Thracicum: Répertoire des noms indigènes de Thrace, Macédoine Orientale, Mésies, Dacie et Bithynie (MEΛETHMATA 70). Athens
⭐Georgiev, V. (1983). Thrakisch und Dakisch. In Aufstieg und Niedergang der römischen Welt II 29.2. (pp. 1148-1194). Berlin, New York
Katicic, R. (1976). Part 1 Ancient Languages of the Balkans. Berlin, Boston: De Gruyter Mouton.
⭐⭐Polomé, E. (1982). Balkan Languages (Illyrian, Thracian and Daco-Moesian). In Cambridge Ancient History III/1 (pp. 866-888).
Duridanov, I. (1985). Die Sprache der Thraker. Neuried.
Simeonov, B. (1980). Des Gètes et de leur langue. In Actes du IIe congrès internationale de thracologie (4-10 septembre 1976), Vol. III (pp. 113-120). Bucureşti
SOESBERGEN, P. (1979). THRACIAN PERSONAL, ETHNIC AND TOPOGRAPHIC NAMES IN LINEAR A AND B. Kadmos, 18(1), 26-39
Witczak, K. T. (2006). Two phonological curiosities of the Thracian language.
Academie Des Sciences De Bulgarie: Linguistique Balkanique, 45(3)
⭐Sowa, W. (2020). Tracio. Palaeohispanica. Revista Sobre Lenguas Y Culturas De La Hispania Antigua, (20), 787-817 - Zábava
Verry interesting presentation, well done! I would like to add that there are more Thracian inscriptions, except those from Ezerovo, Kyolmen en one frtom Duvanlii:
1) Sitovo inscription.
2) Branichevo inscription.
3) Duvanlii inscriptions ( there are 3 silver vessels and one golden ring with inscription).
4) Vishegrad inscriptions.
5) Samothracian inscriptions (aprox. 40).
6) Inscription from Potaissa.
7) Phrygian inscriptions are quite a lot: aprox. 350.
Thank you!
Thanks for your kind words, I was aware of the other inscriptions but kept them out due to brevity. Thanks for your comment though, I'll pin it so others can read.
@@LearnHittite You are right, it is better not to present to much information in a short period of time. I have to say it again: you have done excellent job.
Phrygian has now been concluded to be a Greek language, mind you not a Greek dialect like Epirot or Macedonia, but rather a separate language, meaning that it was not mutually intelligible with other Greek dialects.
@@yvettakollega5791 😂🤣
The following is a deep dive and explaination as to why when it comes to deciphering the thracian language we have to look at connections to these languages: Bulgarian, Balto-Slavic, Greek, Phrygian, Armenian, Scythian, Persian, Sanskrit and some Celtic languages.
First, the reason thracians allied with the Trojans is because Troy like most of north and western Anatolia were numerous thracian tribe colonies that had migrated on multiple occasions in the centuries prior.
This is attested by Herodotus and in a couple of other ways:
- Matching toponyms such as Mysia in Anatolia and Moesia in present day northern Bulgaria, Bithynia in present day Turkey and Vitinya in present day Bulgaria. Moreover, the Byzantine Empire had the province of Thrace in Thrace and the Thraceasians theme in Anatolia (as in Thracians in Asia).
- The thracians that migrated from the Balkans to Anatolia preserved their tribe names for a long time with little to no changes: Moesi->Mysi, Thyni->Bithyni, Brigians->Phrygians, etc.
- And of course some of the written sources:
(suggests Thracian connection to Phrygian, Armenian and Persian)
Strabo, Geography 7.3.2
Now the Greeks used to suppose that the Getae were Thracians; and the Getae lived on either side the Ister, as did also the Mysi, these also being Thracians and identical with the people who are now called Moesi; from these Mysi sprang also the Mysi who now live between the Lydians and the Phrygians and Trojans. And the Phrygians themselves are Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians, the Medobithynians, the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think, also the Mariandynians. These peoples, to be sure, have all utterly quitted Europe, but the Mysi have remained there. And Poseidonius seems to me to be correct in his conjecture that Homer designates the Mysi in Europe (I mean those in Thrace) when he says, ““But back he turned his shining eyes, and looked far away towards the land of the horsetending Thracians, and of the Mysi, hand-to-hand fighters”
Pliny the Elder, The Natural History 5.41
There are authors who say that the Mœsi, the Brygi, and the Thyni crossed over from Europe, and that from them are descended the peoples called the Mysi, Phryges, and Bithyni.
(suggests Thracian connection to Scythian, Sarmatian and Celtic)
Strabo, Geography 7.3.2
...is testimony to this very view, because the poet connected with the Mysi the “Hippemolgi” and “Galactophagi” and “Abii,” who are indeed the wagon-dwelling Scythians and Sarmatians. For at the present time these tribes, as well as the Bastarnian tribes, are mingled with the Thracians (more indeed with those outside the Ister (Danube), but also with those inside). And mingled with them are also the Celtic tribes-the Boii, the Scordisci, and the Taurisci. However, the Scordisci are by some called “Scordistae”; and the Taurisci are called also “Ligurisci” and “Tauristae.
Second, why Slavic languages are very closely related to Thracian:
- The last ever mention of thracians was in 570 and soon after "As an ethnic group, the Slavs entered the history of Europe in the 5th and 6th centuries". What I'm implying is that Slavs is what thracians started to call themselves as a whole in medieval times.
- The so called "alien" Slavs/Bulgars/Huns/etc. who invaded the Byzantine empire and founded the multiethnic First Bulgarian state are said to have lead small scale tribal raids yet they managed to overpower the centuries old Byzantine empire and conquer a lot of its territory. My reasoning as to why this was so successful is the fact that the aforementioned barbarians were the northern relatives of the thracians who were still living under the Byzantines. So the barbarians didn't actually pillage Moesia (later Thrace & Macedonia) they actually absorbed and rallied the locals in support of establishing an independent thracian of kin state.
- Medieval and modern day bulgarians use thracian toponyms and hydronyms for their cities, mountains and rivers (such as Pulpudeva/Plovdiv, Rhodope, Pirin, Strymon/Struma, Serdica/Sredec, Varna, Zagore/Stara Zagora etc.). Instead of adopting the names used by the Byzantine romans who occupied the territory for the last 6 centuries (such as Philippopolis), or perhaps inventing new names, the bulgarians reverted to using the millenia old thracian toponyms, that being because thracians (from different regional tribes and under different names) were the main group the multiethnic bulgarian state was comprised of.
- From Wikipedia: Bulgarians are descended from peoples of vastly different origins and numbers, and are thus the result of a "melting pot" effect. The main ethnic elements which blended in to produce the modern Bulgarian ethnicity are:
> Thracians - a native ancient Balkan Indo-European people that left a cultural and genetic legacy. Approx. 55% of Bulgarian autosomal genetic legacy is of Paleo-Balkan and Mediterranean origin and can be attributed to Thracian and other indigenous Balkan population predating Slavs and Bulgars;
> Early Slavs - an Indo-European group of tribes that migrated from Eastern Europe into the Balkans in the 6th-7th century CE and imposed their language and culture on the local Thracian, Roman and Greek communities. Approx. 40% of Bulgarian autosomal make-up comes from a northeastern European population that admixed with the native population in 400-1000 CE;
> Bulgars - a semi-nomadic tribal federation from Central Asia that settled in the northeast of the Balkans in 7th century CE, federated with the local Slavic and Slavicized population, organised the early medieval Bulgarian statehood and bequeathed their ethnonym to the modern Bulgarian ethnicity.
These are the largest groups of the thracian family that were absorbed and merged to form the Bulgarian multiethnic state:
The West Scythians and Sarmatians north of the Black Sea (called Huns, barbarians, Goths and Bulgars by the Byzantines and called Thracians by Strabo), the Getae (large Daco-Thracian tribe often confused with the Goths) north of the Danube, the "Slavs" also north of the Danube, the Moesians (what the Byzantines and Bulgarians initially called the citizens of the First Bulgarian Empire) south of the Danube, the semi-hellenized Thracians in Thrace and the semi-hellenized Thracians in Aegean & Vardar Macedonia.
It may seem absurd or farfetched to view all these peoples as closely related, that the thracians and their language vanished when Thrace was ceased by the Roman empire but take a look to this:
Herodotus, The Histories 5.3
The Thracians are the biggest nation in the world, next to the Indians. If they were under one ruler, or united, they would, in my judgment, be invincible and the strongest nation on earth. Since, however, there is no way or means to bring this about, they are weak. The Thracians have many names, each tribe according to its region, but they are very similar in all their customs, save the Getae, the Trausi, and those who dwell above the Crestonaeans.
Third, these are the important connections to Ancient Greek:
- Thracians used the same alphabet as the Greeks
- Pre-Homeric Thracian tribes (Pelasgians) were native to most of modern day Greece (presumably even Crete) before the arrival of the Danaans (people of Dannaus) from Libya who mingled with the locals which produced the Ancient Greek ethnos and culture. This is when the language and religion branched off into Ancient Greek.
- Before the times of the Byzantine empire, Thracians and Greeks frequently traded with each other and influenced their languages. After the Romans conquered the Odryssian kingdom, thracians were subject to hellenization.
- The First Bulgarian Empire also used the greek alphabet to write its "slavic" language before the 9th century.
- Cyrillic, the alphabet made in Bulgaria for the slavs in the 9th century is adjusted and expanded version of the Greek alphabet.
- Many toponyms in Greece can't be explained in greek because they have thracian etimology. Moreover, there are numerous toponyms with slavic etimology that are declared as very recent but in actuality have proto-slavic (thracian) origin.
- The pantheon of the mycenaeans (pre-Homeric thracians/pelasgians autochthonous to Greece) is the prototype or local version of the Thracian pantheon which is similar to the later Classical Greek version. A lot of gods and heroes in Greek mythology are themselves from Thrace.
Wikipedia: Although Ares' name shows his origins as Mycenaean, his reputation for savagery was thought by some to reflect his likely origins as a Thracian deity.
Wikipedia: In Greek mythology, Orpheus was a Thracian bard, legendary musician and prophet.
Wikipedia: In ancient Greek religion and myth, Dionysus is the god of wine-making, orchards and fruit, vegetation, fertility, festivity, ritual madness, religious ecstasy, and theatre. His origins are uncertain, and his cults took many forms; some are described by ancient sources as Thracian.
Herodotus 5.7
They worship no gods but Ares, Dionysus, and Artemis. Their princes, however, unlike the rest of their countrymen, worship Hermes above all gods and swear only by him, claiming him for their ancestor.
Fourth, the indo-european origin - Sanskrit:
- Lithuanian, a balto-slavic language is currently considered the closest language to Sanskrit, that would be the dialect of the "slavs" that migrated and settled to the north. I would argue bulgarian is much closer (90% of the words that match with sanskrit are pronounced much the same in bulgarian) but I can see the possibility that Ottoman rule erased words from the old vocabulary.
And fifth, the indo-iranic/persian element:
- Zoroastrianism is an offshoot of the Vedic religion, practiced by some in the multiethnic First Bulgarian Empire (presumably the Bulgars had iranicancestry). Evidence for zoroastrianism are fire temple ruins in the medevial Bulgarian capitals.
I would like to add also that there are aprox. 700 Thracian words, analyzed by profesional linguists and amater linguist. The volabulary is very interesting, most of the words are remarcably close to Bulgarian, Sanskrit, Old Germanic, but different from Greek. Here are few examples:
THRACIAN WORD - MEANING - BULGARIAN - OTHER LANGUAGES - NAME OF THE SCIENTIST
AZ - I, ME - AZ - I, me Blg. ASMI - I am Sanskr. - Vl. Georgiev
BAGAIOSI - GOD - BOG - god Blg. - BHAGA - name of the sun Sanskr.. - A.Fick, P. Kretschmer
BAL - big, great - BOLII - biger Blg., BALIN - big, great Sanskr, PAL - great O.Frisian - W. Tomascheck, Vl.Gerogiev
BEBRUS - beaver - BEBER - beaver Blg. - BEVER - beaver Dutch., BABRU - brown Sanskr. - I. Duridanov
BELA - white - BELA - white Blg., BHALA - whie Sanskr. - D. Detschew
BERGA - hill - BREG - hill Blg. - BERG - mountain Germ. BRHANT - high Sanskr. Detschew, Duridanov, Gerogiev
Thank you!
I would advise anyone interested in the ancient Thracian language to read Ivan Duridanov's comparative study.
Thanks a bunch for all the awesome content you put out! I've been really digging into Thracian language and history lately, and it's been a struggle finding good info online. Your channel has been a lifesaver for me. Keep up the great work!
Oh thank you for your kind words and support!
If you haven't seen it already, @Masaman has a great video on the Thracian people over on his channel. Well worth checking out!
What a great video. Thracians are just fascinating. Not only because so little is known about their language but what's known about them in general - their freedom, their beliefs about life and death. I wish there was more funding for archaeology in the region.
Thanks for your kind words and I agree completely about funding for the region - they ran out of money during the 2012 Thracian digitization process so only the first stage was done. Yanakieva mentioned it in her article...pity
«Suivez mes Thraces!» - Slavemonger in some Astérix book
Thank you for the disclaimer at the beginning. Sound changes are at the heart of historical linguistics, and are what keep a dead language alive in many ways. People seem to forget that pronouncing historical place names in English pronunciation is an equivalent process to historical sound changes.
Kudos for the "Blas na Gàidhlig" book lurking in the background! 🙂
And kudos to you for recognising it! 👏
Thank you for your work.
And thank you for your support and kind words!
Thank you, amazing that you even gave us the linear b !
I'm glad you appreciate it, linear b is too cool to leave out!
Haven't watched the video yet, but I'm wondering what do you think of Frederik Kortlandt's Thraco-Armenian hypothesis?
According to him, Thraco-Armenian was the first to split from Satem IE, and is characterized by the devoicing of some PIE glottalic stops, which he attributes to a Proto-Anatolian substrate.
On Dacian, Kortlandt argues that it was closer to Albanian.
Sources:
The disintegration of the Indo-European language family
Phrygian between Greek and Armenian
Thanks for your comment! The problem is that we just don't know enough about Thracian (or Dacian), there's not even a (remotely) general consensus on the translation of the Ezerovo inscription. I favour some sort of paleobalkanic branch including Phrygian, Illyrian and Thracian but again there's much evidence for it. I mention it in the video but pretty much any language attested north of the aegean at some point has been linked with Thracian.
I will say this though, I like a lot of Kortlandt's work.
@LearnHittite Kosovo Albanians were the Thracians that settled in Thrace, after Asian minor and Illyrians settled in The whole Balcan peninsula, before we moved to the land that we named Dardania as we know now as Republic of Kosovo and some of them went to Macedonia called Peloponnesians in Greece. Some of them stayed in Thrace and the rest stayed in the lands of Romania, and now known as Bulgaria.
Brother
Great presentation
Georgieff proposed that Albanian was Dacian and not Illyrian
He believed that the emperor Aurelian brought the Dacian population south of the Danube and that those people became the Albanians
So Albanian could be a key to understanding Dacian and possibly Thracian
Thanks bro for your support!
😂😂😂 nothing yo so with that
Hello. As you said, there are many translations, including in Romanian. But if we read phonetically, it resembles a kind of "Latin" mixed with Greek. I don't know if it has a translation in Greek, but the "Latin" side is represented by the Romanian language. Or the Slavs came much later and formed the Southern Slavs, which, unlike the Northern Slavs, have many "Latin" influences, but at that time the Latins were not in the area. Where does this "Latin" sound come from? According to some researchers and linguists, we discuss the Thracian-Dacian language. In support of this, we have a recent etymological dictionary of the Romanian language (the first was made by a Czech) whose author, an expert in the Indo-European language, proves that 75% of the words come from the Indo-European-Thracian-Dacian-Romanian and which are similar to Latin (the remaining 25% are Latin, Slavic...) but not identical, which is also supported by the words of Miceal Ledwith, former advisor to the Pope who said "rather Latin is a Romanian language than Romanian a Latin language" in the idea that both derive from the same basic language, where Romanian is the closest.There are also historical arguments that dispute the Latinity of Romanians and the Romanian language, but also of all the so-called Latin areas. Spain, Italy, etc. we notice that there are thousands of Latin dialects, but not Latin. Basically, it is the same phenomenon created by the migration of tribes. The Slavic tribes created the community of Slavic languages, the Germanic tribes - the community of Germanic languages, including Old English, the Nordic tribes - the community of Nordic languages. The southern European tribes created the community of southern European languages known as Latin or Romanic. It's just that, through the empire they created, they generated this "confusion" masked under the so-called "vulgar Latin", that is, of tribes that speak similar languages. Probably through this empire they were only polished, brought closer rather than replaced. It sounds strange, absurd, but that explains why the Greeks, the English, the Jews were not "Latinized", this was not the purpose of the empire. The same phenomenon is also found in the area of the Indians. This is how the "Latin" phonetics in all the translations of the ring from Ezerevo can be explained. Through this migration of the tribes we have the South European languages found all over the southern part of Europe. The Balkan peninsulas-north -Danube, Italic and Iberian. I am not a specialist, just a passionate amateur who studies the "Latinity" of the language and the population of Romania, after hearing this rumor more and more supported, that we are not Latin due to the Romanian empire, but the Romanian language is a continuation of the Thraco-Dacian languages. I have found words with unknown etymology or "Latin" that have links both with Latin but also with close Indo-Iranian-Persian, Indo-Sanskrit languages, through which the Latinity of the Romanian language can be questioned. Ex: The word "water" has closer links with Persian and Sanskrit than with Latin. Please note that in all the areas surrounding the Black Sea we have languages with Indo-European roots, but less so in Eastern Europe where the Thracian tribes were the most numerous after the Indians (Herodotus) whose language " disappeared" due to the conquest of the Roman Empire, especially in Dacia where a maximum of 20% of the territory of old Dacia and 30-40% of the current territory of Romania was conquered. The Ring of Ezerevo shows us the opposite and that the Thracian language did not disappear either through " "romanization" suffered more of a polishing, only an approach to the Latin language.
Awesome work im interested why you couldn’t show the tablets?
There is a huge onomastic Thracian material all over the Bolkans and part of Anatolia (Asia Minor). I actually expected to hear your interpretation of some of the most prominent of them like: Istros, Pirin, Hemus, Hebros, Varna, Yantra, Osam, Arda/Odres, Perperek,
I look forward to your video on the matter!
@ToniValchev
If you read German, I do recomend the book of J.G. Cuno, Im Gebiete der Alten Völkerkunde - Die Skythen, and also the book of W.Tomascheck, Die Alten Thraker.
Albanians (Pelasgians)later known as Illyrians and Thracians moved from North Africa to Minor Asia and lived there for centuries before they moved to The now known the Balkan peninsula and to Thracia. The Thracians lived there for centuries before the moved to different lands. Peloponnese and Dardania.
Your pronounciation of Polish names was pretty good actually. Coming from a Polish person.
@ hetite can you make a video for the bulgarian language and its similarities to the thracian
The 19:36 name Roliste is given as Poliste in the transcription.
Good observation! It's the same in the text I was citing though so I didn't change it.
I subscribed.
Thanks for your support
Bro does Thracian has some close connection with Iranic Scythian language. I saw somewhere on the internet Thracian may be the missing link between European Indo European languages like Hellenic, Celtic and Indo Iranian languages?
Honestly, it's really difficult to say what it has a close connection with and what it doesn't. We really need some more material to be unearthed. At present, in the literature, there are many proposed connections with indo-european branches, just none look particularly convincing. As CEOHadEnough mentioned in the live chat, some paleobalkan grouping looks most likely.
The notion that Schitian is a iranian language has been challenged. As said above, more research is needed. Part of the problem is breaking with lots and lots of old historical dogma. One can not miss that all maps are so politically correct and often do not include any Macedonian or Greek lands of today. Maybe separate video is needed for Tracians settling down in the lands of today's Greece and why Philip was so successful. Brave "new" thinking suggested by classical authors but chosen to be overlooked. Congrats to the author for braving the historical dogma.
In the past Thracian language was considered as part of Iranian family, until A. Fick demonstrated that was not true. Thracian share a lot of close words with Sanskrit and Avestic, but that is it.
Some words as DAMA-home, BAGA - God, BALA - white, ILA - mud, clay, TATA - father, DIN, DINA - day, UDA - water etc. are common for Thracian, Sanskrit, Avestic.
@@Sparotoc In other words, дом, бог, бял,... :)
you did a very good job, nice and well documented video
duuring those time the writings were not standard not even greek for example in CORINTH, ATHENS, ARGOS, EUBEE writings were a little bit different the greek p had the value of latin r but sometimes was used with the value of latin p. also greek x was sometimes h sometimes k, so i understand why some authors use sometimes alternative values i respect a lot everyone who try to get something coherent on the thracian texts
i made videos with some decodings of the the dacian lead plaques (some people say they are fake-without proofs, some say they are dacian few proofs but obvious) wich have a similar language. the texts are also in continuus writing and with many variations of writings. SARMIGETUSO, SARMIGETAUZO, SARMIGETUZO almost every word is written in variants that make the texts very hard to decode it, some of them are almost impossible for me. but the method and the results can be improved .here is a list with recurent words wich can be words on the Iezerovo ring and kyolimen: nereiu, zeltse, do ,ne, nea,ni, me, pazicio, lete, ondeleti, neni, dako, traso,irozanio,teazo,i and also the sequence ea from tiltean,razea is present in many dacian words, some words ends in ebio, ba ,oeba
you helped me with this ,i learned from you a lot , in specially about sound changes and this helps me to read better the texts ofcourse if i will ever do another resonable text decoding thank you
Thanks for your kind words and support!
Very interesting material. Please look for Mihai Vinereanu' s works such as: Etymological dictionary of Romanian language. Also the connection between Burushaski and Romanian language would help you with your study as well. Various ancient authors wrote that the language of the Getae (Dacians), Thracians, Illyrians and the Scythians was the same. Let me know what you think...
This language does not really have much in common with Slavonic. What is interesting is the fact that the same Burushaski population believes that they are descendants of Alexander's Macedonians. The notion of Skith is very vague which allows for many speculations. It doesn't hurt to go deeper.
I did not say that Thracian have anything in common with Slavonic. However Thracian language has a lot in common with the language spoken by the pre romanic peoples. What is also interesting for you to know, is that Alexander's army had a large contingent of Thracian soldiers. Speaking of Burushaski, that language is rather closer to Thracian because Macedonian language is the same family of the Thracian languages. About the Scythian language, yes ancient authors wrote that Scythian language was similar to Thracian. I don't know how far you went with your study but you should indeed go a little dipper, as you said, it won't hurt.... @@CocoSon-zj5oj
Thanks for your kind words. I'll take a look at that dictionary you recommended.
This is a long outdated theory. The reason that these languages were all grouped together was due to lack of evidence. Now that research has moved on this theory no longer stands.
There is a book Thracian Dictionary written by Pavel Serafimov with more than 600 thracian words which are actually understandable by the Bulgarians, there are some old Bulgarian words which ee do understand but we do not use anymore, and the root of the words is 100% the same, there is no other language nowadays who can have an explaination to the thracian words... it is all very easy, many ancient authors wrote that the Bulgarians are the Mysian people and Mysians are a thrace tribe, so they are part of Thrace. Malala said that the myrmidons are the Bulgarians... The book written from 1700 or even earlier are not the same with those written from 400 to 1000... or so, well every person with logical sense can understand that part of the history was rewritten in a way which is of interest in the new big powers ruling the world.. this is clear, right?
Lately I have got into my head that Thracian could be a kind of early Slavic or Slavic related group. How likely is that as a hypothesis?
It's possible, but it is hard to rule any thing out when it comes to Thracian because we actually know so little about it... Stein and Tomezzoli's article 'The Inscription Nr. 6858 from Kjolmen (Bulgaria)' interpret the Thracian Kjolmen inscription as proto-Slavic - which is interesting right? Check out the article and let me know what you think, I'd appreciate your opinion on it.
@@LearnHittite I just read it, and will read again. It offers a compelling case for at least a relationship to Proto-Slavic, still I think it’s hard to say with certainty whether there is a full connection between Thracian and Slavic. My way of thinking there is a connection comes mostly from the geographical proximity between the groups and some words that seem close, but then again there are many words in other groups that are just as similar
Yeah, I share similar thoughts. Thanks for your input
being from a country with a slavic language, a bulgarian could understand, and read thracian
Stein and Tomezzoli's Bulgarian use of лоб for "bottom" is completely unknown; I don't doubt that is could be found in some Bulgarian dialect, but which one? Unfortunately, they do not say, and there is no Bulgarian dictionary in the references. Same with Lithuanian lobas "abyss"; I can find one reference to its use as "riverbed," but even this is almost completely unknown at best, and again there is no Lithuanian dictionary in the references. Same with purported dialectal Russian лабца "marsh"; the nearest I can find is ла́бец "log sawn lengthwise." So they really have *no* references for "jaba," which, even if they did, doesn't explain the l/j discrepancy.
Some of their other words may be correct. But equally troubling is their tendency to interpret digraphs as disembodied prepositions missing their governed nouns. Tmesis is a real thing, but it never happens like this.
In the SCIRP "related articles" sidebar we can see that the same two authors have been interpreting Philistine as Proto-Slavic. In some of their other articles, when they can't understand the alphabet, they take a reading of *each singular glyph* from a distinct writing system...including Vinča, which...how do they know the pronunciation?
All this is just as bad as the mid-20th century authors who Trask shows tried to intepret Iberian as Basque by chopping up words however it seemed it could fit best, with no thought as to plausible inscriptions, context, or grammar.
I hardly identify a word from that ring: "Nerenea" that may be compared with greek 'ανήρ' (man) and albanian 'njeri' (man) from protoalbanian *nera, both derived from PIE *h2ner (man, hero).
Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing your observations!
What about the Greek name Eireineos?
In Albanian Language we use the A,e,i,o,u all the time.
A-i shkove në punë. Did you go to his workplace.
E- mbarova punën time njëherë, masadej shkova. I finisht my work first afterwards I went.
I-shkove në zyre. Did you go to his workplace.
O-sa mirë bëre, Çka bëre masandej. You did well what did you do afterwards?
U-mora me punët e mia. I went about my business.👍
The Bulgarian names were butchered so hard...
AI may help for reconstruct the lost language. With a huge data.
True but take Thracian for example, there is not much data to go on. I suppose AI could perform some best fit reconstruction based on what we have from Thracian plus external data from other IE language. Thanks for your comment.
I don't think that any of the attempted readings of the inscription given in the video are right. Myself I have my own ideas as to what it means. I will attempt to say below. But I am not sure as to all the parts and I don't actually have time to go into deepest linguistics so as to try and get to the bottom of it. One thing I have to mention. My maternal grandmother is from a village in Greek Thrace. My mitochondrial test pointed to a migration 3K years ago from the Baltics. So, I think that the main element in ancient Thracians was a Baltic one. The reason that research is stalling is that the Balto-Slavic element in ancient Thracians has been dismissed as a crack pot theory.
Here is my interpretation of the inscription, as much as I can interpret it:
ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ ΕΡΕΝΕΑ ΤΙΛ ΤΕΑΝΗΣ ΚΟΑ ΡΑ ΖΕΑ ΔΟΜΕΑΝ. ΤΙΛΕ ΖΥΠΤΑ ΜΙΗ ΕΡΑ. ΖΗΛΤΑ
To the son of Rolistenes Erenes, who till he died, lived in this home/house. From over the river I come. Golden.
One thing that has struck me is that none of the proposed readings have noticed that the final word of this inscription, Zelta is the Latvian word for gold, basically, the material that this ring is made from. Another point, the phrase "era" is still used in the Greek region of Thrace with the meaning, where do you come from?
Obviously, my "reading" can be improved.
"Your young wife, the chosen one, die next to you"...suttee?
I've been trying to decipher it for a while now with my knowledge of bulgarian. I'm pretty sure I got the last part right but the words in the middle can be separated in many different ways. Still it doesn't sound exactly right but I think I'm much closer than the official readings.
ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ / ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ / ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ / ΡΑΖΕΑΔΟΜ / ΕΑΝΤΙΛΕΖΥ / ΠΤΑΜΙΗΕ / ΡΑΖ // ΗΛΤΑ
CYRILLIC:
РОЛИСТЕНЕАСН / ЕРЕНЕАТИЛ / ТЕАНСКОА / ПАЗЕАДОМ / ЕАНТИЛЕЖУ / ПТА МИ ЙЕ
/ РАЗ // ЙЛТА
GREEK (Version I & II)
ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕ ΑΣ ΝΕΡΕΝΕΑ ΤΙΛΤΕΑ ΝΗΣΚΟΑ ΡΑΖΕΑ ΔΟ ΜΕΑΝ ΤΙ ΛΕΖΥ ΠΤΑ ΜΙ ΗΕ ΡΑΖΗΛΤΑ
CYRILLIC (Version I)(Step 1: Н -> Й):
РОЛИСТЕНЕ АС НЕРЕНЕА ТИЛТЕА НЙСКОА ПАЗЕА ДО МЕАН ТИ ЛЕЖУ ПТА МИ ЙЕ РАЗЙЛТА.
CYRILLIC (Version I)(Step 2: ЕА -> Я):
РОЛИСТЕНЕ АС НЕРЕНЯ ТИЛТЯ НЙСКОЯ ПАЗЯ ДО МЯН ТИ ЛЕЖУ ПТА МИ ЙЕ РАЗЙЛТА.
MODERN BULGARIAN (Version I)(Step 3: Modern Spelling)
РОЛИСТЕНЕ АЗ НАРАНЯ ТИЛА НИСКО, ПАЗЯ, ДО МЕН ТИ ЛЕЖИШ ПТА МИ Е РЕЗИЛТА
WORD FOR WORD TRANSLATION (Version I):
ROLISTEN I WOUND(ED) THE REAR, LOW I GUARD, NEXT TO ME YOU LIE, THIS IS MY SHAME
CYRILLIC (Version II)(Step 1: Н -> Й):
РОЛИСТЕНЕ АС НЕРЕНЕА ТИЛТЕА НЙСКОА ПАЗЕА ДО МЕАН ТИ ЛЕЖУ ПТА МИ ЙЕ РАЗЙЛТА.
CYRILLIC (Version II)(Step 2: ЕА -> Я):
РОЛИСТЕНЕ АС НЕРЕНЯ ТИЛТЕЯ НЙСКОЯ ПАЗЯ ДО МЯН ТИ ЛЕЖУ ПТА МИ ЙЕ РАЗЙЛТА.
MODERN BULGARIAN (Version II)(Step 3: Modern Spelling)
РОЛИСТЕНЕ АЗ НЕРЕНЕЯ ТИЛТЕЯ, НИСКО ПАЗЯ, ДО МЕН ТИ ЛЕЖИШ ПТА МИ Е РЕЗИЛТА
WORD FOR WORD TRANSLATION (Version II):
ROLISTEN, I NERENEA TILTEA GUARD LOW, NEXT TO ME YOU LIE, THIS IS MY SHAME
РОЛИСТЕНЕ - ROLISTEN - Name, Vocative case
АС - АЗ - I - Pronoun, First person, Singular
НЕРЕНЕА - НЕРЕНЯ - НАРАНЯ - WOUND - Verb, First person, Singular; present simple or past simple
ТИЛТЕА - ТИЛТЯ - ТИЛА - THE REAR - Noun with definite article (the)
НЙСКОА - НИСКОЯ - НИСКО - LOW - Adverb
ПАЗЕА - ПАЗЯ - GUARD - Verb, First person, Singular; present continuous
ДО - NEXT TO - Adverb
МЕАН - МЯН - МЕН - МЕ - Objective Pronoun, First person, Singular
ТИ - YOU - Pronoun, Second person, Singular
ЛЕЖУ - ЛЕЖИШ - LIE - Verb, Second person, Singular; present continuous
ПТА - ТВА/ТОВА - THIS - ПТА is archaic
МИ - MINE - Possesive pronoun, First Person; Singular
ЙЕ - Е - IS - Verb, Third person, Singular; present simple
РАЗЙЛТА - РЕЗИЛТА - SHAME - Noun, written with with definite article (the) in bulgarian
НЕРЕНЕА ТИЛТЕА - НЕРЕНЯ ТИЛТЕЯ - NERENEA TILTEA - Name
Thanks for your two really comprehensive comments. Give me some time to process everything you've written. Have you thought about putting all this into your own video on the matter? I'd watch it.
@@LearnHittite My response was hidden for containing links, you might have to go to youtube studio to read it.
could you email me the link? learnhittite at gmail dot com
this seems interesting, you may actually be right
DIalects of the same language..The map of Thracians is not correct, the Tribali lived in Serbia....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thrace_and_present-day_state_borderlines.png
Thracian people and language is just an Illyrian dialect. The Albanians are the only people with their language (Illyrian) survived from the ancient times.
Don’t even mention the Bulgarians, they are turanic (Turkish) people that converted to Slavic that came too late in the Illyrian Peninsula. The modern greeks, as people and language, has nothing to do with the ancients. The Troy was founded from the Dardanians , a big Illyrian tribe and Illyrian dialect with many of branches in Asia Minor, from the Hittites, Phrygians(Bregas), Lydians etc. that built the first indo-europian civilization, culture, cities and writing.
They are partially Iranian Slavs.😊
Do you realize that Volga Bulgaria was founded way after The Great Bulgaria (todays Ukraine lands, that is still in Europe). Only one of the 5 Kubrat sons went nort-east (todays Bolgar).What turks are you dreaming i can't understand. Asparuh (thracian name) went to Danube, Kubert went to the lands of todays Macedonia and Albania. Altsek went to todays Italy. There is a mountain named Bulgheria in Italy. So only the Danube Bulgarians and the Volga Bulgarians are "turks" but the other bulgarians are not? LOgic! Pius PP. II says that moesians later were known as bulgarians. The same thing with the peons and the myrmidons - they where known as bulgarians. We are on the Balkans way before turks existed.
@@bartoszszczepaniak169 It's quite the opposite. Iranians are partially bulgarians.
@@opushead 🤣🤣🤣🤣 You're one of those who claim that Bulgarians are the oldest people on the planet. Got it.
@@opushead And one more thing. You probably derive your claims from the Bulgar Dragon channel. Idiots beget idiots.
Thracian is an ancient greek dialect. Dorian.
Its vice - versa, some antient southern populations, who lately had conceived the so called "Greek/Hellenic" people, were actually largely influenced by Thraco-Pelasgian language, culture, believes, technology etc.
Have you heard that the thracian Orpheus gave the greeks alphabet? And also all greek gods are actually thracian gods.
There are no "greeks" until 19 century .... read the history ... all written history is created 15 -16 century (falsified of course) ... Did you remember when they found that the famous "ancient" sculpture of the Roman she wolf with Rom & Rem ... been created no late than 15 century (during restoration :) So much for ancient Roma. So, back to the Thrace. They existed long before the so called "greeks" came from north Africa, and their own historians mentioned that they are much darker than the local population of the Pelasgians that are the local Thracs at the time.
After that they stole the whole mythology of the Thracia, and Presto ... we have now "ancient" Greece :)
IE *ē and *ā merged into Dācian *ā that further became *o after second century AD, same as in Albanian, but further evolved into [oa] diphtong in feminine nouns, like groápă ”hole” (alb.gropë), but remain the same in masculine nouns (gróp ”hole”) or further became [u]. See river names like Múreș (dated Móreș), Someș.
-dava is not a good exemple, because that is the zero-grade of the root *dʰeh₁- (“to put, place, set”) + *(Ø)-wóm, so *dʰh₁-wá- gave Dac. -daua/*dawa (gr. -δαυα). I don't think in Latin -dava was spelled /da-va/ just yet. [V] was the phonem [u] or the semivowel [w]. We also cannot account for the virtual existence of a schwa in -dava.
The same root verb was known to Albanian, but got ”demoted” by vë ”to put, place”. I found the present first person verb and the passive participle in the Lexicon of Marko Boçari/Markos Botsari, but also in ”William Martin-Leake, Romaico-Arvanetic Vocabulary, with an English explanation”, page 318: déna ”I sit”, idénure ”seated”
I can not place the link here, because YT algorithm would scrape off my comment, but look for it.
Every [é] and [e] in those declensions is tilted to the right, so I suspect it is the Albanian schwa ë. [i] from ”idénure” should be separated from that past participle because it is ”the” (seated). The Arvanitic is part of the Tosk dialect continuum, but has some archaic features in common with the Arbëresh dialect from Italy.
I found in Romanian a verb ”a se da = a se așeza” / ”to sit down” in Monography of the Șieul Magheruș commune (Cluj county), but, since I'm the only one that noticed it, doesn't have much weight in scientific circles.
PS: Decebalus is not the Dacian form, but the Romanized form. A century before this king, when the Romans genocided the Getae from the lower Danube and transported more than 150000 across the Danube in Moessia Inferior, there are several elite names Dekibalis recorded, and even a text where the accusative form Dekibalim appears. Other names with the subject -balis are Sar-balos, Bazo-balis, Drei-balis (Olbia), Dini-balis, Uarz-balos (Olbia). Might be connected with Phrygian: ΒΑΛΗΝ ‘king’.
Wait what do you mean Arvanit and Arberesh have archaic features? Tosk doesn't? Is it possible they are more archaic than Tosk? Where does Tosk even come from? Are they not similar to Gheg? I have heard people say Arberesh and Gheg must study months to reach a point to communicate between them.