There is No Existential Threat to Britain - Rory Stewart
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- čas přidán 23. 06. 2024
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- VIDEO NOTES
Rory Stewart is a former UK Government minister, MP, and deputy governor in Iraq following the western invasion. He walked on foot for two years across Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, India and Nepal in 2002. He was a private tutor to both Prince William and Prince Harry.
He now co-hosts The Rest is Politics with Alastair Campbell, one of the UK's most popular shows.
- LINKS
The Rest is Politics: open.spotify.com/show/1Ysx8g1...
- TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Discussing Islam With Sam Harris
06:59 Dealing With Threats
12:26 Where is Sensationalism Coming From?
18:37 Cults on Social Media
27:06 Rory’s Love for the Monarchy
32:51 How Long Can the Monarchy Survive?
38:55 Why We Hold Things Up as Sacred
49:15 Can The Monarchy Survive as Mere Tradition?
57:58 Americans' View of Our Monarchy
1:01:54 What Does the UK Need in a PM?
1:10:16 Where to Get Rory’s Book
- SPECIAL THANKS
A special thanks to Tom Rindell for his support on Patreon.
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Alex O'Connor
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Dear Alex, You want rational proof, Fine. Here you go.
Three things must be proven rationally.
1) Does God exist
2) Is that God an Abrahamic one.
3) Is Islam the only true religion among the Abrahamic religions.
1) God's existence?
Rational proof for God's existence goes like this:-
P1) Anything or being whose existence is not eternal, has a creator. (Quran 52:35,36)
P2) The universe is not eternal (Quran 3:190)
C) The universe has a creator.
That creator is whom we call God.
2) Proof of Abrahamic God
God is a conscious living being and humans are also conscious living beings. If any conscious beings have two characteristics then that being can't be God rationally, metaphysically and ontologically:-
1) If that being is mortal.
2) if that being is dependent upon causes to live.
All Greek/Norwegian/Egyptian/Indian/Mesopotamian pagan deities like aron ras hanuman vishnu shiva thor zeus uzza and jesus etc.
All had these two characteristics so they can't have divine attributes like omnipotence, omniscience, eternal, all wise etc. Only Abrahamic God is pure from these two characteristics. So that's why he has actual divine attributes.
Now only 3 religions left behind, judaism christianity and islam.
3) Why Islam only:-
Rational proof for islam goes like this,
P1) God's word, statements can't be wrong because he's all knowing and all wise.
P2) Both old and new testaments have scientific, mathematical, historical errors. false prophecies and contradictions.
C) Old and new testaments are not the words of God Almighty.
Only QURAN is pure from all errors and contradictions. That's why islam is really from the one true God Almighty.
Here's your rational proof for islam.
Any questions?
@muhammadfawad1879 bro you just posted cringe.
You can call the thing in your car that makes it move "a hamster", that doesn't mean a rodent is powering your car. It just means you've named the mechanism a hamster. You've played a word trick to try and imbue the unknown with qualities that you prefer. It's useless and arbitrary. I could call it Gary. Doesn't mean anything about the ontology of the thing.
@@Joseph-zi2pe We have rational deductive proof/evidence. If you say that a contingent thing or beings can come into existence without creator then God Almighty told us (in the **quran 52:35,36)* that you have only two choices left,
1) believing that a contingent thing can come into existence accidentally, this is like saying that 0+0=1 or nothing+nothing=something.
2) believing that a contingent beings or things can come into existence by themselves from nonexistence. This is like saying that 0=1 or nothing=something.
If you believe in any of these two points then Allah Almighty said you are irrational and dumbest person ever.
We know that creator of universe exist because the universe is contingent not eternal both rationally and scientifically.
@@Joseph-zi2pe We have rational deductive proof/evidence. If you say that a contingent thing or beings can come into existence without creator then God Almighty told us (in the **quran 52:35,36)* that you have only two choices left,
1) believing that a contingent thing can come into existence accidentally, this is like saying that 0+0=1 or nothing+nothing=something.
2) believing that a contingent beings or things can come into existence by themselves from nonexistence. This is like saying that 0=1 or nothing=something.
If you believe in any of these two points then Allah Almighty said you are irrational and dumbest person ever.
We know that creator of universe exist because the universe is contingent not eternal both rationally and scientifically.
@@muhammadfawad1879 that is not call evidence.its just a claim .U shld really do research on the definition of the word evidence.
The funniest thing is that right beside this video's thumbnail saying "we are addicted to crisis" is your podcast with Chris Williamson with the thumbnail saying "This is a real crisis." Truly poetic.
Lmao 😂
You all laughing but youre not seeing what's really going on. There is too many people saying too many things and too many people listening to these things. Our brains aren't made to process and store all that info, especially if MANY times that info is contradictory. We crave more and more and yet we truly understand less and less. Imo, dangerous times are ahead.
@@user-kb1hw2yq2f if a man as smart as Rory is at the same time so blind then we are screwed. We have been neutered and self-censoring so much we can't express fully the issues we face.
Try this on for size. Notice how if ever issues are addressed we are met with the following refrains? Can we discuss the issues we are having in terms of migration.
You are a xenophobe.
Can we discuss issues relating to Islam in the West.
You are Islamaphobic.
Can we discuss issues in regards to LGBTQ and the approach we are taking to gender dysphoria? It seems like a lot of little girls are experiencing at concerning high rates.
You are a homophobe/transphobic!
Have I missed any?
Who has the power in society? Who has control? It is the minorities. Compassion and empathy has been weaponised to the point where you cannot address issues head on and actually make improvements.
There are straws on the camels back, many straws. We are getting close to that one that will break and it will be over. The good will train that has been trying desperately to placate and accomodate people who should be more grateful to live in such great societies is about to come to a halt. Never bite the hand that feeds you especially when that hand belongs to a British Lion.
@@user-kb1hw2yq2f That's tempting to believe, but I remember once hearing about a Russian sociologist who went out to the fringes of the USSR to interview the peasants there. And the reality was, without a modern upbringing, those people just lacked a level of comprehension we consider fundamental. He'd ask them questions like "All bears north of the arctic circle are white. If you were in the arctic circle and saw a bear, what color would it be?" And they'd answer "Bears are brown."
I don't think we even fully understand yet what people's brains are capable of. It's more of a problem that tech companies have designed profit models that exploit human emotion for gain. The system is designed deliberately to make us upset and angry because it's highly engaging.
@@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat50% of any population has a below-average IQ.
I still think, as an admirer of Rory, that he was very remiss in not mentioning the Islamist murder of David Amess when discussing the threats posed to parliament and British politics in general by extremist Islamists when speaking to Sam Harris.
I don't see why you would admire him.
Islam is dangerous.
THE David Amess? It's so over. Britannia has fallen😔
I think the danger is when a discussion about Islamic extremists just becomes Muslims. I am concerned that those like Harris and Murray are either failing to make that distinction or not calling out their supporters for failing to make that distinction.
@@mike9512 The general consensus in the UK is that the majority of Muslims Look out for their own community. Do not care for British society and would like to continue to spread Islam across the world. This is problematic for British culture as Muslim communities are rapidly growing. Ask them where they are from and they will be first to tell you their heritage, rather than saying 'England'
If you aren’t fluent in German and/or haven't been to Germany, you can’t really condemn and criticise Hitler and Nazism because you haven’t lived like a Nazi and especially not a German one. You also have to know the complete history of the rise of Nazism too, the thinkers and their ideas that the nazis claimed influenced them, and you have to know every single person involved.
If the standard is “you’re not part of this community therefore you can’t really criticise it” then we’ve pretty much excused ourselves from criticising almost anything.
I think it's especially because we're not muslims that we are anle to criticize islam, their faith. We see things they don't see.
Your comparison doesnt work because it contains two concepts at different levels of concentration. If you were to compare Naziism to the ideology of ISIS youd have an easier time because they are both examples of extreme ideologies existing within larger, neutral frameworks. Islam could be compared to say western tradition, because it is equally an overarching, longwinded tradition which includes ideologies which are good and bad... like Naziism. It is easy to criticise Nazis or isis - we do it all the damn time. it is not easy to understand or criticise Islam or the west. Rorys problem is with people like sam harris reducing islam to a rigid ideology like naziism when it simply isnt comparable and not at all easy to truly understand.
@@harrykitchener5597 The point is that if someone has to have certain criteria (He did the whole “they don’t know Islam because they don’t know Arabic and haven’t lived as a Muslim” schtick) in order to address or criticise something, then that should be applied to anything and exempt anyone from criticising almost anything.
So in order to be consistent, this guy can’t criticise Hitler or Nazism at all because he can’t speak German fluently, doesn’t live in Germany or Austria, never lived in Nazi Germany, doesn’t personally know anyone who is a Nazi, has never lived as a Nazi and doesn’t have any kind of academic credentials that would justify discussing the subject with anyone.
No one living can ever comment on Greek and Roman history before 1700 because none of us were there to experience it.
@@harrykitchener5597 nope. if the criticisms themselves are valid, they are valid, no matter who says it. By your and rory's logic, that should make Mosab Hassan Yousef's strong criticisms against islam 100% correct and valid only because he lived that life right?
@@ottz2506i think rorys point was tho that it was "a bit weird" that sam invited him to a podcast to defend islam when he could invite many other people who are more qualified. Not necessarily that its wrong to have an opinion about it in public. Rory continues to have a strong opinion about islam without having done all the stuff he mentions. Idk if he had a stronger argument on sams show about the issue but that is how its presented here as far as i can see. I think it is also a good point that sam has engaged in so much debate over islam without making more of an effort to understand the religion on a fundamental level. Rory isnt 100% clear on his position but as far as i can see his gripe is with the quality of critique not with whether the critique is allowed to exist at all. And if the conversation is about quality of critique then i would agree that its basically impossible to really critique such a massive network of complex and contradictory views, especialy as someone with such little background knowledge. The same applies to roman/ greek history. If someone started spontaneously ranting to me about the roman attitude towards god and society id have no clue what to think. Which romans? Which era? Where in the roman empire? Its not about whether we can critique but about whether there is someone else out there who is in a better position to critique it. Alex has read the bible. I have hardly read the bible. Im allowed to have opinions on the bible. Alex probably has better more informed opinions on the bible than i do. I would also trust a historian who speaks german a lot more to speak about naziism than any guy like myself who just doesnt like nazis. Once again, quality of critique not existence of critique. Sorry for the long ass response.
Fascinating conversation, but I do wish you'd have pushed Rory a little more. You asked a brilliant question at 9:00 about some very specific incidents, specifically about threats to MPs and fear impacting legislation. Rory's response was to pivot to a different question that he made up himself, about whether or not the pro-Palestinian marches are antisemitic. Rory has a tendency to do this, and it was one of my biggest frustrations with his conversations with Sam Harris.
So far very frustrating, he’s a politician so it’s to be expected to some extent but this podcast usually is refreshingly honest and frank. Political interviews are tough at the best of times with the required adversarial nature but expected more from aoc (so far)
This was my exact thought too when I listened to this part. The specific incidents can be applied to many areas and it's a bit out of touch for a politician to say "okay you faced this, but is it really an existential threat to the country or just to you" as if it shouldn't still be discussed
He's a politician. What do you expect? I should also note he was a Conservative (if admittedly a very moderate one).
Isn't the pivot to acknowledging that his colleagues as MPs receive myriad threats a valid answer?
If someone is threatened one thousand times a day, but 70 of those threats come from Christian nationalists, does it make sense to consider Christian nationalists an existential threat?
It's possible to say that these problems are real, dire and should be dealt with, but if your entire persona revolves around them then that's fundamentally about you, and not the life of the nation.
That's the Alastair technique.
How many people have to live under police protection for speaking their mind on Islam publically?
countless
Parliamentary process was subverted by it just over a month ago 😂
Speaking freely comes with consequences. You can't have freedom to without freedom from.
@@veryfitting and in the Islamic case you can neither have the freedom to be an apostate, a homosexual, etc. nor be free from the threats and violence of Islamist radicals
@@veryfitting Anyone whose response to free speech is violence should not be allowed to live in any civilized society.
Just to note, the production quality of this episode is incredible.
completely agree!
I came to the comments to say this but you were way ahead of me, totally agree keep up this level of production Alex it pays off 💪
Yes! And that's so important. I find I'm irritated and distracted when a video is badly produced regardless of what's being said.
@@jonathancrawford7106It is indeed a pleasure, but we do need to be be careful what we wish for. Soon enough CZcams will be a realm of beautifully produced inane junk, like TV and Netflix before it
When your guest literally stops the interview to be like "I love this room" lol.
49:12 When Alex asked "Are you enjoying this conversation?" I thought it was to Rory haha
😂
Me too lmao
lmao same, I wasn’t watching at the time 😂
Seamless segway
😂😂😂
Now Rory have a debate with Douglas Murray 😂👌
That would be worth watching
Great idea. DM is probably as intelligent as Rory.
@@colinstewart1432 DM is leagues above him
@@colinstewart1432I doubt that
@@specialized500 Don't confuse educated with intelligent, they're not the same thing.
Downplaying the danger of Islamic ideology seems just as dangerous.
There are certainly bigger problems than Islam at the moment in Europe, but that can change quickly in the next 10-20 years.
Any religion that sells man-made wisdom (and errors) and morals as given by God is dangerous.
It demands that reality adapt to religion and not the other way around.
Especially since this religious errors treat topics like astronomy, biology, evolution and homosexuality.
"Any religion is dangerous" is a shorter way of putting it. For the same reasons you gave - and because they are ALL man-made.
24:33 anyone else listening thought they'd lost their internet connection there? Funny how in our noisy fast paced world we're no longer used to people taking the time to have a proper think before opening their mouth.
Isn't that amazing, a breath of fresh air to see someone just think for ten seconds before speaking...why is it so uncommon 😢
Yeh it caught me off guard, thought it was a joke about self censoring
I really really really enjoy it these days when people do that. I respect it A LOT. Everyone needs to start speaking less and thinking more, except me, I'll keep talking the rest of you just think.
@@BenedictPye thought the same
That really caught me off guard. It was strangely long.
"It's the motherlode of bad ideas" - Sam was spot-on a decade ago.
Small caveat that Sam himself has since admitted to, it’s A motherlode of bad ideas, not THE.
@@huxleybennett4732
Has he specified the replacement?
@@pseudonymousbeing987 All religion.
@@CreatureColossus
Sounds like Islam could still be put at the top of that.
@@pseudonymousbeing987 Sam might argue that yeah. I think all religions devolve into barbarity when the people are poor. Think of the dark ages of Christianity. When people have no control over their lives, they fall to religion and superstition.
Rory needs to do this again wearing a T-Shirt depicting "the prophet". Only then will we believe there is no existential threat to Britain.
What a fascinating convo, can’t wait until I get more than 2 minutes into it.
The Islamic observation facet that Rory is missing is a talk with Ex-Muslims...would like to see that.
Ahh the old silent majority trope.
Who are neither silent nor a majority.
@@ljt3084where was it suggested that they were a minority or silent?
Did you just create your own grievance?
@@ljt3084 So do you believe in Rory's fairer, more egalitarian POV ...OR... do you believe his POV will better allow Sharia in UK??
Do you even understand the meaning/use of the word 'trope'?
@@ljt3084 exactly no one would refer to ex-muslims as a silent majority. least of all, ex muslims themselves
I despise a lot of these non-Muslim moderate liberals who make excuses for Islam. They don't even understand how ex-Muslims are being threatened everyday by these people of a self-proclaimed religion of peace.
I'm not a nazi. I haven't read Mein Khampf in English let alone German. That said if Nazis were being given preferential treatment by our government and police and had a nazi heading our Parliament I'd be more than happy to criticise them.
Exactly - this idea that you have no right to criticise positions you haven't personally engaged with is bollocks. Some ideas are just wrong, and we can analyse them abstractly with these brains that we have and determine that they are wrong.
@@Scarletpimpanel73 I'm half an hour in and the guy seems likeable and intellectually honest but I disagree with him on so many points. But then I agree with Alex on very little as well and Im subscribed to his channel.
idk if nazism is an allegory for religion my dude
@@rose-bk3zh Well. It is. Now you do know.
Look up allegory and metaphor mate.
I have a surprising amount of respect for Rory Stewart. He comes off as a sincere and intelligent individual who is far more nuanced than your average political commentator.
I don't know. From my perspective he sounded like a twit.
Thanks for that comment Rory.... run along now, there's a good boy.
Surprising indeed!
Be careful. He sounds sincere but then you can see how insincere he actually is if you check out his comments about Sam Harris. And that's just one example, he does it all the time.
That is the art of being a politician
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Yasmine Mohammed
Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib
Ask Muslims, current and former what the mindset and agenda is.
No, look at statistics instead. Yes, certain muslims, such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, have faced terrible oppression and such but we must also take statistic reality into account. Because that tells us the reality.
@bastiaanvanbeek
Now a days everything is named a crisis.
However, events of concern and trends should not be dismissed.
David Amess MP
Fusilier Lee Rigby
Manchester Arena Bombing
7 July 2005 London bombings
2017 London Bridge attack
How many dead does it take to be statistically significant?
The Muslim Council of Britian says Muslims account for 4% of the population 15+years, but is, 15% of the prison population.
@@acerrubrum5749There's also disproportionate representation of African Americans in US prisons and violent crime. In the 1960s-90s, there was also a disproportionate number of terror attacks carried out by the Irish. Sometimes a single statistic isn't enough to tell a story
1.8b Muslims and you take 3 individuals to put fourth an argument? Really? And what Muslims have you personally asked? Islam has its issues like all major religions, but if travel to those Muslim lands and you'll quickly realise their religion isn't a threat to the West like some on the right will make you believe.
@@FBUKhow many are liberal democracies?
Acknowledging something can be extremely bad and still not a "big" threat is my key take away from Rory's view on Harris, JK, etc. It is also how populism grows, politicians not acknowledging what neighbourhoods feel. If Rory is keen on talking about what he regards as bigger issues, just say. "Yes, Islam is a shitty problem in our society, I agree with you, but I'd rather spend my time on housing because that's a much bigger issue and this is why"
Could it be he doesn’t feel “Islam” or “Muslims” at large are a problem?
Example: I consider Christian Nationalism a continuing threat to U.S. democracy. I don’t hold that view towards Christians. There is some crossover but not necessarily a contradiction.
@@pilsung26depends, some people against islam think that islam and islamism always come in one package
Precisely.
My guess is Sam Harris wouldn't say Islamism is the biggest threat certainly in the US. He'd probably say the top two are Trumpism and Wokism
@@rp-hr1qs They often do, just like nationalism and Christianity
Results matter. We keep track of the incidents. Being naive about Islam is dangerous.
I don’t think he advocates being naive about anything and probably would say that same thing is true of people who disagree with him. That is, you’re being naive about Islam because you undervalue the degree to which there are genuinely peaceful Muslims who want nothing to do with the extremists. Ignoring that can lead you on the fast track to repression based on religion which is dangerous and therefore your naivety is dangerous. Saying “being naive is dangerous” doesn’t cut it for you being right.
@@parkerlincoln49 Nobody needs to have this "there are genuinely peaceful X members of this group" attitude about Christians or Mormons and that's for a very good reason.
@@Hooga89Yes, and that reason is the bias against Islam that has formed over the last 100 years. If the boot was on the other foot and the Middle East had carved up Europe into ethnically inconsistent "states" and then engaged in regime changes to suit their oil monopoly ... I wonder what would people be saying about Christianity?
Yes, there is still a practical question about the violence in the here and now... But let's not pretend that Islam is the only monotheistic religion that is obsessed with political power - they all are!
@Hooga89 Holy shit just say what you think. "We don't have this conversation about Christans and Mormons for a very good reason." You say this because you're too much of a coward to say what you think the reason actually is.
I'll tell you what I think the reason is though, because I'm not a coward. I think we talk about Islam so much because right wing media and politicians fearmonger about it so much. It's really that simple. And they fearmonger about it because nationalists and wannabe authoritarians will always need scapegoats and "degenerates" to point to. They always need to paint an outgroup in order to establish an ingroup.
I wonder what you think the reason is?
@@parkerlincoln49 the old excuse of #NotAll
I am concerned with the ones that do, not the ones who don’t. I do not want to participate in their religion or learn their ancient wisdom. I want them to assimilate while in the West or leave. This used to be understood. This isn’t as complicated as you’re trying to make it.
Alex is becoming a first rate interviewer, generous, welcoming and happy to give the guest free time. He answers them with knowledge and respect. More power to you in the art of developing discussion. ( please people remember he is very, very young)
Once he gets past his angry-atheist phase I'll imagine he'll be one of the great interviewers of our age.
He is great at calmly extracting the opinions of those he interviews and have them explain their beliefs.
If Alex has a fault it is being too polite and not challenging his guests when they spout nonsense or obfuscate, but perhaps that is not his aim.
If there is no crisis in Britain you haven't been to seaside town or Swindon town centre recently
I haven't been there, what's happening ?
@@SzTz100like 99 foreigners for every white guy
@@R0B0TUK So blame your own focking government thats allowing them in
@@R0B0TUKso what?
@@epicchocolate1866 wdym so what? This is England, it is a white country.
I share Rory's sentiment about the monarchy and our unique british history. Realising rationality isnt everything is important.
One of the causes of curruption in politics is the FPTP voting system where a significant proportion of the voters are voting for someone they don't want in order to keep out someone they dislike even more.
Of all the criticisms of FPTP, this is an odd one. People vote tactically in all voting systems. How many people will vote in the US presidential election more to see Trump or Biden out of the white house than the person they actually vote for in it?
@@dechasrisen4783 The problem isn’t that they vote to keep someone out on it’s own, it’s that in doing so they vote for someone they don’t like and against someone they probably do like. This can mean politicians can “game the system“ and still win even if most of the people don’t like them. Sure many other systems also have it but they are still much better, multiple voting for example allows them to vote both tactically and still vote for their favourite, ranked voting allows them to do the same but this time make sure their vote for the guy they want comes before the person their voting for to keep someone else out.
@@generaltom6850STV is just another form of FPTP, but it just gives you the illusion of choice. It still means the two party system is maintained and no positive change will happen.
@dechasrisen4783
I'm from Netherlands and a government has to be created based on a coalition representing over half of all the votes.
It really works, no matter how unhappy I am about the political situation I've never felt I had to vote tactically. There's only more new political parties popping up
We're in a situation right now where the political party with the most votes is struggling to form a government because they cannot come to agreements with others so they cannot create a coalition that would represent the majority of votes in the country.
@dechasrisen4783
Your example:
"How many people will vote in the US presidential election more to see Trump or Biden out of the white house than the person they actually vote for in it?"
IS an FPTP problem.
This guy said a whole lot of nothing
What did you want him to say ?
I really loved this interview. Thank you!
Each time I listen to Mr. Steward, I am reminded of the reason why I am a Conservative, although politically I find myself mostly supporting the Left. Conservative parties don't seem to understand what Conservatism is about, and instead have become revolutionary at their core.
@@laurentdrozin812 yep there is a slide on the right with conservatives disappearing to be replaced by an anti democratic post truth populists in conservative clothes.
I would just like to tell you, that after all of these years, this is the first podcast I have sat and listened to the whole way through. Thank you.
He is doing the meme. He is sitting in a burning building, sipping tea and thinking "this is fine".
if you say the sky is falling it must be so chicken little
@@drinkwater9891 Immigrants are real, Chicken Little is not.
@@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je scary, you better panic or whatever
@@drinkwater9891 You should find it alarming at the very least. And things as they are, the panic is much much less than the panic written about "Gentrification" of "inner-city" neighbourhoods, where the same arguments, such as "too rapid of a change to the identity of a place" are taken seriously. One wonders if consistency of principles would ever be applied.
@@user-yp6yr9te7l yeah i watched that scene in boyz n da hood movie with his dad preaching, and i also watched gb news and some rubber dinghies, life goes on for me, but its good someone is panicicking and thinking of the childrins or something
Just to add a minor correction - JK Rowling is not, in any sense, an 'intellectual'.
Rory Stewart: The most eloquently wrong person in the UK
Utterly wrapped up in his own self-image.
It's better than being just regular wrong like the rest of us.
I'm not sure that's true. When I heard Alastair Campbell announce he was doing a pod cast with Rory Stewart I was incredulous. But he did us all a massive favour. I've grown to like Rory to my surprise. His upbringing and party affiliations are polar opposite to what I considered acceptable. But I am a richer person for listening to someone from a different mindset to mine. It turns out we are more alike than I would have dared admit. I'm all the richer for it. I think Alastair Campbell would probably say the same. It looks like they are best buddies these days.
What do you want him to say ?
@@SimonPass230267 Not far from how I'd describe it myself.
We are in crisis from the moment we are born! We make adjustments to attenuate pain.
This was one of my favourite people ever have been in your show Alex, but what amuses me most is your attitude and respect towards everyone you come across in the debates, even those who are so difficult, you’re so mature and knowledgeable, thanks for the podcast on iTunes, so many!!!👍🏻
I was backpacking across Asia about 20 years ago and I met some Chinese students in Beijing who offered me a cigarette. When I asked them what brand they were smoking they were astonished that I didn’t recognise it because they thought it was the official brand of the British Royal family. I could not believe that a Chinese tobacco company would use a foreign monarchy to market their cigarettes. I think it was a very good example of how uniquely popular the British Monarchy was at the time but recent events involving princes Andrew and Harry have had a significantly negative impact on their global image.
In all fairness I'm not sure how loved Harry and Meghan are themselves but the Prince Andrew situation has been an utter disaster!
Yeah.. Prince Andrew...that's what it was..
These days China is full of fake Korean products
i wish i were there to argue with Rory on the issue of islam and religion and his view on them as someone who was born muslim and lived in muslim country and seen all sorts of injustice, cruelty, and craziness of islam .
don't know if i'm right but Alex looked as if he is trying to appease him by not challenging him by talking his mind the way we know him
That's Alex for you. He rarely, if ever, challenges those he debates. He is more interested in having them explain themselves. That can be frustrating.
it's funny to me the fact that people think the thing stopping a rape from happening in a bathroom is the picture on the sign on the outside of the bathroom
I'm something of an existential threat to Britain, my self
Yes, your punctuation is lethal!
@@b-dogswings8019 you're*
Oh dear! You’re confusing your use of yours!
@@b-dogswings8019 deer*
Your*
off*
you're's*
Alex you are doing great work here we need discussions like this to realize our actual issues in the UK and come back together to really drive Britain into the future.
The irony of this coming out just as thousands of Afghanis riot in Paris.
As opposed to the thousands of parisians who riot every other week?
@@epicchocolate1866Aren't the Afghans going through integration with the Parisian culture??😂
Why are there thousands of Afghanis in Paris?
Possibly because the western hegemons keep destroying their country.
Sounds like they've really learned how to be French.
@@epicchocolate1866 Yes. Native riots are better than foreign ones.
I disagree with Rory on his naivety to the threat of extreme Islam and the fact that moderate Muslim are more comfortable with it then one would expect. But I have to say I admire his thoughts and discussions. He clearly thinks about things deeply and has a profound respect for his country, it’s people and it’s way of life. It’s such a shame Boris was chosen over him… what a turning point in history.
True no nation have ever recovered from Islam. Once it reach 40 % it's already too late.
Sorry, but what do you want moderate muslims to do for them to be not "comfortable"? They tip off the authorities in Britain but get ignored, they're one of the first parties to condemn the attacks and raise money for the victims - what more can they do?
He has literally been mortared by islamists within Iraq for over 24hrs. Incredulous that you would call him naive to such things, perhaps his broader experiences with Muslims have informed a different view .
Rory seems like a really nice upper-class Brit, but sadly clueless what is going on in the country outside central London.
Seen the polls on attitudes recently?
To think that there isn't an existential threat to Britain right now is frankly absurd.
There are very clearly at least some.
Wasn't Russia threatening to glass the whole island just last year? To mention one?
not to mention that you are litterally being invaded by muslim immigrants. Maybe it wont seem so bad until you actually have to cover up your woman in public.
Outside the TV show Halo, this is the first time I'm seeing the word "glass" used as a verb for total destruction.
Tbf, I think they've been threatening to glass Britain every year from 1949-1991. In the same way North Korea has threatened every year to glass South Korea
No, they weren't threatening that at all
@@canismajoris6733 There were a number of pundits appearing on their state TV shows advocating nuking the UK. Their argument was that when it comes down to it the US won't step in.
Beautiful conversation, thank you.
Once again, Alex proves to be among the best at providing insightful interviews of interesting people. I prefer and learn from this type of informed and thoughtful discussion over most presernters debate format.
Prefer trigganometry, much more fun and interesting
@@user-dt3iv5oc6f I can't stand Konstantin's whole approach and demeanor. Different strokes.
@@user-dt3iv5oc6f bore.
@@shortyragsas opposed to this smarmy arrogant little brat? 🤣🤣🤣
@@user-dt3iv5oc6f They came across pretty condescending and close-minded in their podcast with Alex.
Really fantastic chat! I'm a fan of both of these two, but it was really interesting to hear Rory talk about these big picture philosophical topics. Great interviewing, fascinating guest. More like this!
Rory Stewart is living in history, 2010 or 2014 but definitely not 2024.. he's just one of the conservatives like any other.
Alex please have someone on who thinks there is an existential threat to Britain now
j’zargo! how did you get a google account?
Douglas Murray is next?
Perfectly said and observed. As Jacques Derrida said “All texts contradict”. He means if what each and every one of us says or writes was closely examined, it would be obvious that we constantly contradict ourselves. I notice this is the case with myself by the minute.
Is the difference in context that each incident occurs in a good enough excuse for this?
Is it preconceived theories of claimed preferred behaviour which don't match what we do, and/or that contexts haven't been taken into account in the theory because they're new to us when they occur?
Rory's jumper is an existential threat to his neckline.
Looks like the jumper might swallow him up at any moment.
While Rory is not wrong about the delusions of Americans, the point in no way “exonerates” British delusions.
Two delusions don’t make a sane 😂
@@TomJudson There are thousands of different Islams for him, but only one American...
@@TomJudson 'Absolutely none of his generalizations about the Islamic point of view can be applied to me. I'm sorry to say I found a lot of his points disingenuous.'
Do you not see that you're perfectly demonstrating his point about people's comments on Islam as some sort of monolithic value structure?
Whether it was Stewart's intention or not, you've completely proved his point about people's views on Islam.
@@TomJudson It's perfectly obvious what I'm trying to say. Generalising Americans is exactly the same thing as generalising Muslims. Your complaints about being generalised can be made in the exact same way by Muslims.
Americans are not delusions stfu
After listening to that segment, I can assure you these two don't fully understand the classic American view on monarchies (not just England but in general) or why the Revolution happened outside of tea prices and stamp taxes.
That being said, it's been 250 years since Independence, so it's not as personal as it once was I suppose, so if the British are happy with their monarchy, then so be it.
Personally, I think the American fascination with royalty largely had to do with Queen Elizabeth II and a bit of "Disneyfication" of American women in the 20th Century.
Little girls like to play princess and do tea time, so I think that played a large part in the fascination.
They probably won't have the same imagination now with King Charles though 😅
However they are correct in that most of us don't realize the King still has powers & responsibility in spite of a Parliament and Prime Minister.
Cheers from across the pond 🇺🇲🇬🇧
I'd never studied British government. Rory Stewart's book on how not to be a politician shattered my assumptions about how government works in the UK. It made me appreciate my American system a bit more. I wish American conservatives were as thoughtful as Stewart.
Rory Stewart would be a liberal in the US political system and not even within the "moderate" wing of the Democratic party. US politics is completely fucked.
I wish British conservatives were as thoughtful as Stewart
@@timmanning5206 There are interesting and thoughtful British Conservative thinkers, they just aren’t politicians.
Genuine question, why do you regard Stewart as so thoughtful?
@@joek360 yeah that's more what I meant. He just seems to give a shit and says his mind rather than spouting constant pre written lines
Rory Stewart is NOT a conservative! He's centre left, if not outright left. There has been a worrying leftwards swing in the UK's Overton window.
If the Conservative party were interested in maintaining traditional, they would've sorted immigration. They just want to maintain their privilege.
One of the best podcast episode I have had the pleasure to listen to in the last 12 Months.
I would simply add that people seem to get away with failure to critique religious dogma to a degree they'd never get away with if the same dogma was purely political.
I've been looking forward to this one. Thanks for having Rory on, he's a great guy.
Yeah he's great! He can't say if crucifying gays is wrong because he hasn't read the quran in the original arabic. Idiot!
never thought you'd watch alex o'connor's videos haha
I really enjoyed the conversation thank you. Lots of questions raised, lots of thinking to be done. Wonderful.
"We've sacrificed what we naturally care for what we've rationalised that we should care about." ...Damn.
I still don't know how the British at some point ended up choosing Boris Johnson instead of Rory Stewart.
Thanks Alex - I have enjoyed all your podcasts but this is so far my favourite. It spent a lot of time in skilfully sketched nuances and attempts to define and explain the ineffable. I have an unexpected respect for Rory Stewart and the charming way he edges towards an explication of a felt mystery and as alwaays I am enchanted by your barbed humility. You have a respectful style that always challenges. Please keep going!
"barbed humility" what a great way to put it!
He looks exactly like his voice
Beautiful videography and and color grading!
Rory Stewart is a strange one - at one level he's a very sincere and thoughtful individual, and obviously intelligent. At another level he's so embedded in a certain kind of Centre-left liberal world view that he's utterly blinkered to certain aspects of reality. For sure, there is a danger of extremism (at both ends of the spectrum), there are also dangers to "extreme centre-ism", if I can put it that way...and Rory very much demonstrates that. His view that the issues facing our country are all entirely mundane practical questions about things like housing etc, with absolutely no recognition that national ideology, identity and sense of purpose are fundamentals to what makes everything else "tick" is a classic example of that.
He's said statistically, Islam and identity were not the priority when speaking to people on their doorsteps. Of course people care about these issues, but there are more immediate issues that are also important like jobs, healthcare, policing, social care, etc...
Here's the thing to remember about Rory Stewart when he tries to tell you everything is hunky dory in good old Blighty...
He lives a life of priviledge 99% of people in Britain couldnt fathom. He lectures part time at an Ivy League US college. He's a published author. He travels the globe more often than an orbiting satellite giving talks for vast sums of money. He has the most popular podcast in the UK from which he collects shedloads of cash....
Rory has never and will never understand or experience life in modern Britain for someone on an average wage, a miniumun wage or anyone in receipt of benefits. His life is a walk on a fluffy cloud as it has always been since he was born.
Yes, hes a smart guy. Yes, by Tory standards he's not the worst. But he's not living in the same reality as the rest of us.
He did walk across Asia. This is a wholly humbling experience, and he has seen poverty far worse than you get here in England. I take your point that he's grown up in a very privileged position, but just saying because he's rich he has no sense of modern struggle I think is a bit flippant.
Have you read his books? Dismissing someone's views for their economic situation is very naive.
@@zacharypeach4217 I refer you to his voting record as an MP where he consistently voted to make poorer people's lives harder. It wasnt on principle that he left his seat or the party. It was because he was frozen out by Johnson's brand of even more cynical politics.
Don't be fooled by the story of walking across the Middle East. That's an old 19th century romantic tale of British adventurers wandering the globe. A tradition that someone like Stewart would have been steeped in and sought to emulate. Of course, its better than a Jacob Rees Mogg, who's only flirtation with poverty was meeting his postman one morning at the front door when his butler wasn't available, but it doesn't necessarily equate with the idea that Stewart is now a compassionate man of the people. He is an aristocratic Tory and always will be.
@@hughjass8430 Ok Hugh Jass, agree to disagree. Governments work by politicians voting along party lines. A lot of the time it’s complicated, but this is the whip system we have and I wouldn’t judge a politician solely on voting records. You’re making pretty scathing assumptions based on class hatred. Not all tories are awful people, they just have a different vision on what’s best for the country. A vision I don’t agree with, but that doesn’t discredit his good intentions. Your cynicism is unbearable, and to see the world through your eyes must be exhausting.
@@zacharypeach4217 Believe me I get no joy out of it. I can just see through people like Stewart. Case in point his views on NI and IRA. Much harder stance on Irish Republican 'terrorists'. No excuse for their actions during the troubles. Murderers all......
Yet when it comes to Islamic terrorists....its more complicated. Why? Because a) there are votes to be gotten in Muslim Britain and b) he's under no personal threat by disparaging other white Europeans who he may disagree with.
None of this surprises me. In his elite circles its wrong and distasteful to target ethic minorities who have suffered under colonial rule. We must now come together and sing combayya. White Europeans who were equally squashed under the British imperial boot? Fair game.
@@hughjass8430
A bit of a sweeping statement giving the complexities surrounding why this country had suffered over the last several years. He voted with the conservative whip, as he was required to as a Tory MP. He’s discussed this before with Ash Sarkar.
It’s a good point. Perhaps discrediting his integrity. But I don’t think your point carries the weight you think it does.
I totally agree we are addicted to crisis, but here's the thing. Rory Stewart, Alex O'Connor, Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, and the whole lot make a living out of this very phenomenon.
I am not sure you can throw Rory and Alex into this category. They don't claim to be experts nor try to influence policies. Sam and Jordan - 100%. They'll sell their children to make money if they have to.
Alex deals in crises of meaning of life?
Well someone's got to do it. Should they be unpaid ?
Bullshit. Must be a Sam Harris troll. dime a dozen.
Yeah, cause when I think about Sam Harris, I think about frantic fear mongering lol.
"Hello..... this is sam harris.... if you're listening to this.... it means you're... not... on our member's only feed......... " AHHHHHH IM SO SCARED!
Oh Rory, the politician you didn’t want to become in order to be the leader we needed. Such a missed opportunity to set the bar to a much needed standard, if he only had the patience to weather the storm.
In terms of people who I diametrically disagree with, Rory Stewart is by far the most agreeable. We need more dialogue like this. We need more Rory's!
I specifically asked for Rory in a community post and here he is!! Alex really do be out here pulling the strings.
oh shit! I listen to rory every day at work on his Podcast with Alastair Campbell. What a treat. look forward to this one!! i thought Rory was in America?.
this is almost as cool as wen Petter Hitchens stormed off because he wanted a smoke and Alex refused to let him smoke and wanted to just have a chat.
The idea that just the simple reality of the demographics of the Muslim presence in Britain is not an existential threat is absurd.
6% of the population is an existential threat to British society? You destroyed our countries looted our wealth and killed hundreds of thousands by unjust colonial policies, and you have the audacity to regard only 6% as dangerous because of a tiny minority within them! Hypocrites!
Millions of Muslims in Canada, yet it works fine, Canada is in fact far safer than England.
I am sure before watching this video that is brilliant!!!
Prepare for disappointment
Prepare for disappointment
Were you prepared to be so disappointed?
I am not addicted to a sense of crisis. I want things to be cozy.
These two aren’t mutually exclusive though
They are the same. Your subconscious wants you to suffer
"Most people don't want to be free, they just want to be safe."
You would fall into the most people category.
just don't watch the news then, you're life will carry on exactly the same
@carlmurphy2416 I'm ok to watch the news of an anti-communist uprising in China and anti-muslim uprising in Iran
You didn't "grumble about it", you mischaracterized it and made Sam out to be some kind of unsavoury character after being genial when speaking directly with Sam himself.
Yes. The smile on Rory's face when Alex explained the reason why Rory had a second conversation with Sam set off my alarm bells. Boiled down, Alex touched on the fact that Rory was two faced & lied, & Rory's response is to ... smile? Kind of creepy imo.
I love the radical honesty and thank you both for the insights
18:20 mark… I felt so called out 😂 But it’s good, it was a much needed reality check that I may be becoming a little too confident in my beliefs. It just means I need to start opening my mind again, specifically to the things I wouldn’t see based on my algorithm.
Good interview with a very balanced, level-headed guest.
I could have sworn that was Eddie Redmayne.
didnt expect this super exciting
Great interview. First I’ve heard of Rory. Love him.
Refreshingly thoughtful conversation - thanks.
So...When will you have John Lennox invited for a chat? 😊
That'd be indeed great!
Prizing the ineffable values of beauty, or tradition, or landscape, is all fine and dandy when we’re talking about your choice of curtains. It’s a different kettle of fish entirely when it comes to choosing how to order a society, to distribute power and resources - which political philosophy to adopt, or which political party to fall in behind. How much should we tax the wealthy? How much do we owe to asylum seekers? The values which Rory champions seem to me woefully inadequate when it comes to addressing these questions. Here we should surely side with what (our best attempt at) argument, reason, ethics tells us - or at least not simply trust what our ‘saintly/drunkard’ sensibilities tell us.
The fact that Rory considers his attachment to his curtains to be a fitting analogy is telling. His impulses are chiefly aesthetic, even in the political realm - morals don’t seem to get much of a look in. (And I don’t buy the idea that it’s a hopeless to try to disentangle the sentimental from the principled. This just smacks of refusing to subject your emotional and aesthetic attachments to critical scrutiny - to investigate their moral standing. I thought Alex might have pressed him a bit here).
I find it difficult not to be dubious when those who espouse the importance of preserving traditions and customs happen to have themselves done very well out of those very traditions and been positioned to enjoy its frills and ornaments. (This was certainly the case with Burke, and Rory too. Where are the oppressed people championing the value of continuity?). Appeal to beauty, tradition, landscape as our guiding values quickly starts to look like window-dressing, disguising the one sacred value which defines and unites the conservative mindset: self-interest.
Interesting comment and I do think there is truth in much of what you say. I will say think you could find many oppressed people championing the value of continuity. Oppressed Christians, Muslims, Jews, Rastafarians, S&M enthusiasts, you name it, they will champion their community's continuity and what they get from it. I suppose you mean 'where will you find a people championing the continuity of a system they do not benefit the most from, suffer because of?'. Really you pose a self answering question because by definition, unless you are a masochist, or very unintelligent, you will not champion the continuity of your oppressor. It was rhetorical I suppose.
Great comment, I have quibbles of course.
I do love to see another one keeping up standards in thinking and writing.
@@nagatomwhat on earth are you on about?
Please collect your thoughts before you write.
This was one of the most old-timey British things I've seen in a while, from the conversation to the people, and even the set. The guest was quoting Yeats off the top of his head, for God's sake. That said, I did watch the entire episode. Alex keeps it interesting.
Love this dialogue! We need more dialogues rather than oppositional debates!
Excellent listening and this is Rory at his best.
Alex’s charitable engagement with Rory’s ideas has given some interesting insight and thoughts to develop slowly and thoroughly
Forget travel. Has he ever lived in a majority Muslim area of the UK? You don’t need to be a scholar to see the problems.
🤓🤓
bollokkks . I live in a 2 majority muslim area " - no problems except redneck white ignorance .. Islamophobia is english nazism-racism .. This is bs - " areas with majority muslim " usually are ,in reality, christianmajority and the white people are VERY stoopit .... .. It echoes Hilter's rise to power / uneducateds' scapegoating who have no A Levels .. Tomrobinson plebs - underclass
I wonder if those areas also happen to be relatively poorer to other areas in the UK 🤔🤔🤔🤔
@@doplr8711 We have the same issues when white english move into our commmunities they do not integrate or learn the local language. At least Muslims make the effort.
@@123bwlch True true
Brilliant discussion.
I would like a sweater like that.
Rory may be well travelled but if he just popped up to Middlesbrough and other Northern towns more often he'd realise Sam has a point
he was an MP for a northern constituency...
@@orcocan he was MP for Penrith, you must be as out of touch as him if you think Penrith is ought like Middlesbrough, Leicester, Bradford, Leeds etc.
@@martinjnagy you think Middleborough has a monopoly on representing the north? Has Penrith moved to the South?
@@orcocan did I say all Northern towns you sausage? But if he travelled to Northern towns with a large Muslim minority he would see the issue.....Penrith isn't one of them....we are you trying to detract from the point
@@orcocan what are you even talking about, engage with my point or be gone
How refreshing to see a young man with an intelligent interest in the world and a good interviewer. 👍
That's is an existential threat to all of us, climate change. If only everyone could get as angry about that as some people do about immigration.
Chicago has some of the best architecture in the world. Quite frustrating to hear it described as “a catastrophe”.
I assume he is referring to its
Suburbs and urban sprawl
I doubt it - London has the same sprawl if not more, it just has the royal parks and green land which offers relief.
I also think Chicago has some of the best early and mid-century international style high-rise architecture on the planet, and think it’s aesthetically beautiful. Doesn’t surprise me RS is not a fan.
Just a small-c point from a British point of view espoused by Rory.. and a daft comparison to make. Parts of London, the City particularly, are a thousand years old.. no American city comes close to the historic sites.
@@Alex-mj5dv as you could imagine there is a natural conservative disguise at high rise buildings
@@michaelmccomb2594 The problem with the suburbs and urban sprawl is NOT a result of American oversight-free capitalist growth as is implied by Rory. Its actually the opposite. Its state and federal government oversight, city councils, and planning committees that are to blame. They're the ones that create the single-use and exclusionary zoning, minimum lot size requirements, building height limits, parking minimums, building setback requirements, and basic city and road design (e.g. wide roads and "stroads"). Rory suggestion to keep Britain beautiful is to lean into the hyper-controlled local governance that is found is most of urban America.
@@tysonsmith23I think most planning boards in the US are responsible for issues like it costing $2M to build a public restroom in San Francisco instead of aesthetic problems or a lack of a sense of community in designs. Areas where there's more aesthetic control of approved designs are generally more pleasant, although it's annoying when you need to play politics just to get approval on the color you'd like to paint your house. Developers tend to focus on maximizing profits without any consideration for the long term impacts of project planning, so it's really driven by the real estate market, what it costs to build versus what is popular and what it can sell for. Personally I don't believe Americans really value cities that highly and that they prefer to think of cities as rough as life in the countryside instead of a place of modern civilized convenience and that's really what's responsible for the character of American cities.
Rory Stewart is clueless about what's going on in the UK and Western Europe in general.
Any criticism in particular?
@@Nick_Flanders Well, that would spoil the fun.
@@Nick_Flanders Yes the disaster of mass immigration on the fabric of Western society, the Islamization of our cities and local politics, 30 000 UK Muslims on a terror watch list, their complete inability to integrate, child grape gangs, bad crime rates. Hell only 19 percent of British Muslims are in fulltime employment and the tax payers foot the bill for them to have kids. The left and even so called conservatives like Rory's complete inability to confront the problem is actually the biggest problem of all because they are responsible and everyone who doesn't have their head stuck up their ass suffers the consequences of their delusions.
1:00:00 It's funny Rory should mention this. As an American, I don't think very many younger Americans actually think that way anymore. It's part of the cultural gap that exists between younger Americans and older Americans. My father believes that. I am conflicted, in the sense that in one sense I know this country did an awful lot more than many others to try to bring public discourse, a free press, free and fair elections, and a whole load of other things to people around the world, and inspired many others to bring those things to their respective societies. But I also don't necessarily hold the hardline interpretation of the view that many elders in society hold, and I certainly recognize that we have never really fully lived up to that idea, either.
Great lighting and production quality in this podcast, very ‘Chris Williamson’
Two of the brightest minds of our time in the UK. Love you both.
Rory is truly the most confronting absurdist yet. The juxtaposition of his love of tradition and his sombre acceptance of a modern reality feels, not like crashing waves against rock, but like a calm beach where the differences of ideas is the very source of its beauty.
"Each of us takes this one thing... and imagines that this is the defining issue of our age" is one of the most true statements of all time.
I don't know how you can have such a negative view of politicians and still be against the idea of a monarch as head of state. Just imagine Boris Johnson or Liz Truss as our official head of state ? At least the queen never said anything vapid, stupid and populist in her whole life. I'm not a monarchist but the idea of replacing them with any of our current batch of populist politicians is bizarre.
Rory is unhinged but glad you had them on the show
"them"?
How is he "unhinged"?
Typical neoliberal with his head in the ground, basically Blair. Only positive thing to say about his political career is his advocacy for hedgehogs.
@@techtutorvideos "literally"
@@-FrameshiftHe means unhinged in the sense that he has a lot of viewpoints that he he articulates as really well though out, which aren’t actually that well thought out, but notice Alex is not necessarily challenging him on that and letting him talk more for the content, even on the points Alex has publicly been opposed to. Challenging would potentially put him on the edge and not allow this differing perspective to be heard on this channel, which some viewers may not be accustomed to. That’s my take though. I’ve noticed (maybe just me) Alex has been more careful with some people since the Peter Hitchens debacle, although maybe he is just trying to aim to listen more to have better discussions.
He looks like the man from Spider-Man
CONFIRMED. He looks like a nicer version of William Dafoe
@Knytz, lmao! That is what I wrote on the post about this, a bit ago. 💙🥰✌
@@laurajarrell6187 i might have saw that
*Willem
If Aardman Animations did Spider Man
Wonderfully insightful podcast, thank you. The point about how to deal with lived experience and taking on board a particular problem and yet being proportionate in one's response was good to hear, it often seems like certain public intellectuals champion issues to a level that's far beyond the reality and I'm unsure if it is helpful, especially without caveat.
Wonderful conversation between two clear thinkers.
One of your weaker interviews, Alex.
Rory has ideas that are based primarily in tradition. Rory speaks well and has a lovely way of expressing his ideas, but far too many generalizations and historical biases. I absolutely disagree with his points on politicians' necessity to be more nitty, gritty and able to compromise on ethics as elluded by comments at 1:03:30.
I was quite disappointed with Alex as in many interviews where he agrees or somewhat agrees with the point, he rarely presses the interviewee's ideas.