True. One more quote, "Poverty charges huge interest" example, Cant fix cavity now? pay for tooth implant later, can't pay insurance? ok go bankrupt later. Cant buy a house ? ok pay for rent that will increase each year.
THAT. PART. But of course, those who come from privilege would never understand. They think that poor people are simply a result of lazy freeloaders that don't want to work hard enough. Never mind things like economic disadvantage, lack of opportunity, and don't forget, high cost of living in conjunction with stagnant wages that leads to things like financial hardship and lack of opportunity.
@@adityaK12don’t forget things like buying in bulk. Can’t afford 12 rolls of toilet paper? Well, you can afford to buy 4 rolls, but they’re more expensive per roll that way. Can’t afford a brand new car with warranty, so you buy whatever used junk you can afford, only have to pay more in costly repairs than a month auto loan, not to mention transportation costs while it’s in the shop because you have to go to work, and are also too busy to work on it yourself.
I agree. I mean, I’m looking more into small hatchbacks, but it’s a similar problem. Where I am (Canada), an Impreza hatch is $29,000 base price. Dealers are charging $40,000 for a mazda 3 (new and top of the line, but still). Even used, you’re running $25-30,000. Being in my early 20s, I want a small car that’s good on gas, I can park anywhere, and have a bit of fun driving it for cheap. That is not really a reality right now, which sucks. Because so does my FWD Rav4. Sure, it’s a base model 2010, but if the bulbous steering and hair-trigger accelerator pedal represents the best of cars in the future of the market, oh no.
Yeah well a Corolla is basically a Golf, it's gotten bigger. And if you want a car that's as big as it was 15 years ago for a price that's the same as 15 years ago, you have to go one size down New Polo is as big as the Mk4 Golf Same era Passat is arguably smaller than a Skoda Octavia But yeah, US market is dreary. There are no small cars. Corolla is not a small car. And that's hopelessly sad
YT car reviews are not innocent about this. Very few just flat out call it like it is so that they can stay in good graces to get a pre-embaro-date vehicle. Just look at the thumbnail page of any of the bigger channels; they are just basically co-opted advertising to rich boomers, because the majority of the audience isn't interested in a $60k goliath.
The regulatory environment plays an enormous role as well; SUVs are outright favored over cars in the US. Also worth mentioning that we seem to have hit a critical mass of young people who didn’t grow up in households with small cars, so they don’t realize that an SUV isn’t a straight upgrade and you’re giving things up by going bigger.
The Big Altima Energy conversation always makes my heart sink. I bought an 06 from my Gramma when I started college. It got me through 4 years and then I gave it to my sister for her to finish school. 8 years and 110k miles, a new paint job, new steering knuckles and 2 power steering pumps later she is still going strong. The Nissan Altima will always have a special place in my heart. No matter the stigma
I learned to drive in a 03 Altima, absolute appliance of a car. It had four wheels and a steering column, and could reach highway speed eventually. I think the issue with the new ones is they're trying to cram so much...not car stuff in.
That’s really nice man :) feel the same way about my 2010 civic 😂. First car, got it used for 3200 because I needed it to get to work. Thing is definitely not the best car but it made a space for itself in my heart, and whenever I get an upgrade I will definitely be sad to get rid of it.
I know they're not the most glorious, but I fell for my mom's 01 Altima a little. The 2.5L was throaty and torquey in front of the 4.10 (approx) final drive. The engine, transmission and suspension were all so very well tuned. Unfortunately it started falling apart after about 140K miles.
Big-Altima-Energy aside, the Altima really has been the affordable choice for Japanese midsize sedans for a while now. Accord has always been priced too premium-ish and suffers from too high of a resale value, and the Camry is never discounted when new. The Altima however remained affordable and available to the masses. Shame that it's going away
I think your most insightful line here is “sedans would sell better if they were better.” This phenomenon happened in recent history, and to understand it all you need to do is compare the Death Of The Sedan to the Decline Of The Minivan. Especially during the 90’s and early 00’s, minivans were hot. It resulted in forgotten products like the Mercury Villager, a badge engineered Nissan Quest which was intended by no one to move the needle for excellence in the automotive arts. But, the 1st generation Villager sold 120,000 units over 4 years. Not a smashing success, but it allowed another Ford product to occupy a slice of the market. Then a thing happened, which you can directly compare to the current situation with sedans. The Honda Odyssey and the Toyota Sienna became such obviously superior products that trying to compete with them on merits alone was a complete folly. So the minivan segment which once had dozens of choices is now left with the two obvious champions and a couple of also-rans. So it makes complete sense that Ford/GM/Dodge gave up on sedans, because history has proven that they will never be a real threat to the Camry, Corolla, Accord, or Civic. It would cost a fortune to develop something in the same league as Honda or Toyota, and they’ve had, what…40 years?… to build credibility to create such a following in the midsize/compact sedan category. And they never did. So why bother? TL;DR sedans will become a more niche market like minivans led by the best examples
Incredibly salient point. It's kind of the same as the ultra-luxury sedan/saloon market in Europe in the '90s - every manufacturer offered a luxo-barge but after the millennium everybody pulled out and gifted the segment to the Germans because no punter wanted a premium vehicle with a value badge on it.
It’s not just the sedans, it’s every damn car on the market. They’re all wildly expensive and the manufacturers have priced the average buyer right out of the market.
@@geno3437Manufacturers plus predatory tactics by dealerships. Let's not pretend that the market provides. Americans want SUVs because they've been told they want them.
Had to scroll an awful long ways to see wagons mentioned. Remember when almost every sedan had a wagon version? If Toyota made a wagon version of the 2025 Camry, with the same high-40s mpg and mid-$30ks pricing, I'd sign on the dotted line today. Most crossovers are basically just tall wagons with worse mpg and road noise, and I don't care about off-roading.
Because they used to be made with rocks and twigs and so a argument was made that to keep them cheap they needed to be able to keep using ancient technology. This caveat was created n the 1980s. It didn't make sense even ten years later when the Ford Explorer, Toyota Tacoma, and the tenth generation Ford F-series were all on the road with technology just as advanced if not moreso than the midsize sedans they shared stables with.
Because in the 1980s people bought trucks and SUV’s because they actually needed them. No one bought a huge truck to cruise around in to “look country” or “Merica” or whatever. They weren’t ‘cool’ yet
Manufactuerers are "manufacturing consent", examples: Remove manual options - "our manual take rate is zero" Price out V6 models - "our v6 take rate is really low so we dropped it" Price out sedans - "No one is buying sedans" Make a model hybrid exclusive - "no one is buying gas cars!"
>Remove manual options - "our manual take rate is zero" Brother, even in the cars where the manual has consistently been an option (like the Mustang for example) their share of sales has only been going down. Ford had to basically discontinue the manual Bronco because NO ONE bought them. The only manual Bronco I have seen in the wild was discounted up the wazoo at a dealership so they could move it after having it on the lot for nearly 2 years. The lack of an automatic option killed the Focus RS in North America.
@@Clockwork0nions Depends on the type of car. The BRZ/GR86 has around 85% manual transmission sales for example. Almost nobody wants the automatic for that car.
It's like the F150 powerboost, or the Ram 1500 diesel, you cant get it in a work truck trim, so people who are buying a truck to use it, not as a fucking toy, cant ever get the right drivetrain
Cash for Clunkers took an entire generation's ability to buy used from them. 20 years of potential used cars crushed in the name of saving the automakers. So people who could have bought used cars amd been fine were forced into leases and loans they never could have afforded. Hell, I ended up going out of business because of cash for clunkers. Buy non running used car, rebuild to running, sell for profit. repeat about twice a month, and I used to make about $1.5k profit per car. Those cars were sub $3k after I touched them. Not a single one was made after the turn of the millenium. Then Cash for Clunkers came and everything was $5k minimum for scrap.
So many good 80's 90's sedans got murdered because of cash for clunkers. Grannies old Cutlass/Century, Towncar Marquis etc. went to the crusher when it still had year's left in it.
Ugh cash for clunkers. Absolutely hated that program. That was me that was impacted by it. Was just leaving grade school. There were barely any cheap used vehicles being sold. One of my only options was a Chevy Corsica. That thing was a POS. So it still left bad options on the market but killed a ton of good options.
bro.. In 2024 that check would be $6500 for your clapped-out 1993 Ford Aerostar.. You're taking that money regardless if you are conservative or liberal... Yes some good cars got caught up but a lot of clunkers did indeed get off the road...
SUVs were the salvation of US automakers. Trucks were always profitable and they knew how to make them. But not enough people bought them to make it the core of their business. Then government regulations combined with minivans aren't cool mentality (Though they really aren't) and they were given a license to print money. They were allowed to use the very broad definition of a "truck" and sell station wagons at luxury car prices while meeting non car emissions and fuel economy averages.
yeah 2035 and forward is going to be absolutely dismal. no fun anymore, your only choice will be an EV with no engagement or fun, or at best a plug-in hybrid with a godawful CVT attached to it
I'd accept that sentiment if it wasn't on a video about the death of sedans. The default fleet vehicle, your grandparents boring car. The depressing corolla 4 door.
I'm just tired of every auto maker trying to stuff what would be cheap cars with "luxury" items & being shocked come quarterly results that vehicles haven't sold well.
This. Low trim cars don't need sunroofs and digital instrument clusters. Cloth seats don't need to be heated. Advanced safety tech is expensive and rarely works the way it should. Nobody asked for this shit
theyve mandated things like backup cameras because the mandated safety equipment like pillar airbags and high hoodlines for pedestrain impact made visibility poor. MPG requirements forced formerly small cars to grow to be compliant with CAFE. A 90s sized car would need to achieve 50mpg to not be fined but an F150 sells so well they'll just pay the fine.
Feels like a repeat of the 1970s in that respect. Just give me the basics; I appreciate modern safety features but I don’t need rear climate controls or heated/ventilated anything.
@@DiamondKingStudios I have friends that buy fully loaded BMWs and the like and I ask them how often they use a lot of the features..."erm just the once when I bought it!"
I bought a used turbocharged 2015 Fiat 500 Abarth in the summer of 2020 for $11,950 CAD ($8,900 USD) plus sales tax. No junk fees. 135 HP with the Sport mode off, 160 HP with the Sport mode on. Engineered without a muffler. I truly love this batshit-crazy tiny car! All my stuff fits in it! I even did a road trip to New Brunswick and Quebec with it! It got me safely there and back! It easily carried all my luggage in the tiny trunk! The 91 octane fuel expense was cheap! I did mods, I did maintenance, I paid $4,626 CAD (3,100 USD) to have a a blown valve replaced last year along with having some other scheduled work done such as a timing belt service and a coolant change. Even after adding up all the expenses into the purchase price, I still haven't reached the price the previous owner paid for the car when it was brand new! And with car prices as nuts as they are including the price of any remaining subcompacts on the market, I'll probably never buy a new car ever again! BTW, the previous owner managed to experience TWO fender-benders with it -- one at each end -- fourteen months apart! Her insurance company was NOT happy! 😂 The car was properly repaired and the original damage fully disclosed by the dealer. I paid the loan in full in 2 years and three months. Total interest was less than a grand Canadian. No trackers added or left behind by the loan company or by my insurance company (I refused). If I were to sell my car today, I might be able to sell it for more than what I paid for it warts and all even after disclosing the previous damage. That's completely insane! It's a FIAT!!! I don't want a truck, crossover, or SUV. I've driven many as rentals for work. They're truly horrible cars! They're only good for middle-agers who have been domesticated! I'm gonna keep my tiny Demon on wheels! And, yes, it's a manual! 😁
Because America's obesity rate is almost 45% as of 2023. We're also getting older as a nation. Bigger people need bigger cars, and older people want to sit higher because they have back issues. These factors did no favors to the humble youthful sedan.
People buy a vehicle based on their 110% use case instead of the 90% use case They buy based on the possibility that they maybe MIGHT have to move a sofa someday, so they buy an SUV or truck Instead of simply renting or borrowing a truck if you MIGHT have to someday maybe move a sofa and using a smaller car the rest of the time
Same reason why people by coupes, V8s, luxury cars, sports car etc. Because it's desirable. It's down to the emotional aspect rather than logic. If you want logic we would all be driving kei cars. A sedan is actually a really illogical body style when you compare it to other body styles.
Long time watcher, first time commenter. The lack of actual economy cars I think is a big problem. The loss of the Honda Fit in 2020 was really the end of an era because there isn’t really a cool, reliable hot hatch type car that is available anymore. The love for the 90s JDM vehicles has stayed consistent and if there’s any way to touch back on that in today’s market, I think we could see a change. Fuck CAFE btw.
Shit the amount of s10s and 80s-90s rangers people are moving heaven and earth to keep moving and on the road cause folks around me want light trucks is crazy. The new Ford rangers are bigger than f150s from back in the day how is that a small truck at this point?
As someone that loves compact and subcompact hatchbacks, it upsets me so much that basically the only option that's about to be left is the Mirage (and even that seems to be going away), the build quality on which is... lackluster, to put it mildly. The Spark? Gone. Hatchback Rio and Accent? Gone or on the way out. Hatchback Versa? Gone. Yaris? Gone. Fit? Gone. SX4? Gone with Suzuki. Focus? Gone. Fiesta? Gone. Hell, even the Fiat 500? Can't get a new one in the US anymore, hope you want some crossover that's a Jeep Renegade in Fiat styling. And the fact that I can remember a lot of those having mechanical issues is part of the problem. If you're buying an economy car, part of the reason you're doing it is that you don't probably have a ton to spend on repairs. If the thing is going to be in the shop so often that it isn't available to use or you're spending half (or more) the car's cost again in repairs annually, it has ceased to be an economy car.
I wanted a Fit so badly, but a new Honda Fit was still too expensive for me to ever afford. Manufacturers' customers are NEW car buyers. If you can't buy new, you don't matter.
As somone from gen z, most of my peers want sedans or smaller cars. Since we are younger, we have no use for a SUV as we arn't hauling family, going on large shopping trips, or bringing large stuff back from home depot (not like we will ever be able to afford a house anyway). We really just need a personal vehicle that can occationally hold a few friends. I'd imagine as we get older we will start to want SUV's as their practicality becomes more relevant in our lives but for now i'm happy with my GLI.
As a Gen Z...I actually noticed the opposite. Most of us want SUVs. They don't need to be large SUVs. I do know a few people who actually like sedan and coupes. But overall the idea of buying a sedan or such isn't even a consideration.
Gen Z apparently doesn't even want a driver's license. The vast majority can't afford new cars, so they buy whatever is available used, and that's mostly random CUVs because that is what people that can afford to buy new cars have been choosing.
I just got my permit and I what a 70's-90's car or truck, but everyone tells me I'm going to get a boring SUV because somehow through those years we just didn't have any safety like three-point seatbelts because somehow a video about a 1950's X frame car against a 2009 chevy means all old cars are bad. just let me have chevy, Toyota, Honda, Cadillac, Acura, Nissan, ford, Mitsubishi, Oldsmobile, Buick, Pontiac mini trucks, sedans, wagons, G body's, square body's and land yachts.
@@baronvonjo1929 Exactly guys on a RCR vid and there's some bias to be had since we're all at least somewhat into cars, but fr the shift for most young consumers (I'd assume) would be to inherent a sedan and then sign off a huge car loan on an SUV/Truck based on "***safety" and "lifestyle" concerns. ***consumers perceived safety by automaker advertising and ego
I got a pontiac G6 through cash for clunkers. I put two hundred and fifty thousand miles on it before I gave it to another relative with only routine maintenance. I don't think I'll ever see another car like that in my lifetime.
The death of the sedan is secondary to the death of the hatchback and the wagon, both of which are the most compelling arguments against SUVs, and both of which are largely MIA from the American market for reasons that can only go back to the manufacturers.
Wagons and hatchbacks don’t exist n the US market because of CAFE regs. Take that wagon, jack it up an inch, call it an CUV and it’s easier to meet fuel economy standards.
@@jasonashley9853 I know, I have a Mazda3 hatchback (a 2021 with AWD even). It's been a fun, economical, and practical car. They aren't dead, but they are indeed dying. VW killed the Golf in the US (other than the GTI) and their small wagon disappeared a while back. Outside of some rare luxury makes, small wagons are all but gone in this market (especially if you count those that haven't been "outbacked" into a quasi CUV) and even those luxury options are rare or need to be special ordered (e.g. Volvo V60).
@@stevelovescars newer cars are all overpriced anyway. Even my 3 was, I got it for 15k at 57k miles. But it's still better than paying 25k+ for a new one.
@@jasonashley9853 Yeah, agree. It's hard to even find a boring gray regular "crossover" for under $35k anymore. I guess this compounds the issue. Knowledgeable car enthusiasts are more comfortable looking at used cars and saving money. This means that NEW cars are more commonly sold to average buyers, thus skewing the availability of cool cars, manual transmissions, and wagons even further into the abyss.
It's kind of strange, I know "New" sedans are dead but if you drive around in any suburban Los Angeles neighborhood the sedan is still the car most people drive (this is not including places where wealth or debt exceed the average). I think the real effect of the sedan death won't be felt for at least another 10-15 years given that people seem to hold on to their cars on average about 12 years.
The length people keep cars and the mileage they drive them to is also increasing, so it might be closer to when gasoline becomes so expensive that running a vehicle with an ICE as a daily driver becomes impractical. Modern cars last much longer than they used to.
... (this is not including places where wealth or debt exceed the average)... I remember Southern California. To your neighbor, there's no difference between Being Rich and Looking Rich.
@@burnttoast9890 This is literally the reason I got a Mazda3 about a month ago. Only car in sold in the US its class with a NA standard automatic instead of a belt. Can't even get these things with a manual anymore unless you choose a sportier (more expensive) trim level with more crap I don't need, or a turbo that will ensure the car never makes it to 200k miles without a rebuild.
Genuinely tried to buy a used Nissan leaf, really liked it and worked well for how much I drive, drove it and loved it, they kept pushing me to the point of getting something new, at the end they actually refused to sell me the car and completely changed the deal last minute when I told them I didn't want anything else.
As an aging boomer, I'm often accused of being a curmudgeon, but it has been interesting to watch how marketing has influenced our "needs". I grew up in Watertown, NY, where winter weather is no stranger. The only people with 4WD vehicles had trucks with plows on them. The rest of us had rear wheel drive sedans and wagons, yet we still got to wherever we needed to go without much difficulty. Now, the message seems to be that driving in any climate without AWD is bordering on suicidal. The other interesting trend is selling an image. TV commercials lead us to believe that everyone drives off-road the majority of the time. In over 50 years of driving, I have been on many unpaved roads, but nothing like the ads suggest is common. The idea of driving up the side of a mountain never even occurred to me. So, what do we really need? At least for this geezer, our 2007 front wheel drive Pontiac Vibe met our needs 99% of the time, and 100% when including our small utility trailer. If they still made them, I'd buy another in a heartbeat.
Love this perspective. Only in my late 20s and grew up in Montana with plenty of winter storms. Not 1 snow day in my life, and my family never had problems with the old '97 Camry. Fast forward I'm living in Colorado now. I thought it was the people here, doesn't matter how much if there is any snow on the Forcast it seems they shut half the town down and send out storm warning alerts. Can't tell you how many people I've seen off the side of the highway with snow that melted same day! Starting to think they really do need better cars....
@@Mobius_ll I'm not sure what a better car would have to be, given the way many people drive. We live in Rochester, NY now. While 4WD vehicles should be more capable for winter driving, SUVs and trucks seem to be the vehicles we most often see in the median or off the side of the road. The fact that they're easier to get going doesn't mean they stop or steer any better. Adding more weight and a higher center of gravity to the equation can also result in a thrilling wheels-up experience. A good set of winter tires and some common sense seems to be the best approach to me. But, as I mentioned, I'm just a grumpy old man. 😊
Před měsícem+3
Matter of fact while driving on snow covered roads most of the vehicles off the road in the ditch are 4 wheel drive. They become over confident and end up off the road. Learning to drive according to conditions is a lost art.
On those adverts, having recently gotten back from a vacation in Germany, in mountainous regions where the driveway to our house actually was like those adverts: We managed perfectly fine with our VW Sharan Minivan. Which isn't a car, but the wheels are far enough apart to effectively make it a scaled up one. The only hairy moment was the initial drive up due to the significant back load on a front wheel car from us bringing too much crap with us, forcing us to send it and hammer the anti-skid system. Which still made it drive up safely and controllably and was fully our mistake from sending an overloaded car up a very steep rocky road. But afterwards, the rocky roads were easy to manage, even in rainy weather deepening the steep rocky trenches. Additional, I am confident that I would have managed the same roads with our VW Up!, a proper compact city-car. As proven by even seeing a few around, along with the people living here either having normal cars or vans making it up the same road. Barring complete off-road monsters forgoing comfort for the roads explicitly and rightfully marked as unsuitable for normal cars, those lacking any form of maintenance and having deep trenches most SUVs would not handle either. It takes some careful manoeuvring to make it through without giving the suspension or clutch a beating, which we picked up pretty much immediately.
I was at a Toyota dealership yesterday. They did not have cars for sale. If you had cash money in hand and wanted a Corolla, Camry, Crown, Supra, 86, RAV4, Venza you are out of luck. They’re not available, but would you like to order a brand new one? They did have a couple dozen wildly overpriced Tacomas filling their lot and 3 unsold electrics on deep discount.
@@nuke2373 The halved range in winter climates, the cost and time to charge in public, plus the perception about repairs( or lack thereof) are really going to keep lower income folks from ever considering investing in an EV. EVs are awesome performance cars and a great way for the rich to flex on each other with how much lithium they can buy. But as the video says, eventually ICE used sedans will dry up leaving nothing but short range irrepairable overpriced EVs available to normal folks. This couldn’t feel more like a conscious effort at taking away affordable transportation from the masses.
Drivers are incapable of stopping at a stop line and feel compelled to continually inch out into traffic making right turn drivers inable to see around the vehicle turning left and vice versa. So the race to see who can get the tallest seat on the road has been Tha name of the game for the last 20 years or so
Drives me nuts. I deal with this crap at work all the time. We have two exit lanes parallel to one another. I ALWAYS stop at the stop bar. They stop several feet back. Whoever makes it to their bar first should go first. But I always end up in a pissing match because they don't know how to use the stop bar. So annoying.
I swear why the fuck do people keep inching into the intersection when at a red light? YOURE GOING STRAIGHT STOP PULLING UP LIKE YOURE ABOUT TO GO I CANT SEE
so a UK perspective here. sedans (and wagons) do still sell here, but it's usually the big 3 german brands (BMW, audi and merc) because they actually advertise them and make them easy to buy. my friend was trying to buy a mondeo a few years ago (before they stopped making them) and the dealership was just ignoring him whenever he said he wanted one and just saying "we've got this nice crossover" i want a mondeo "or how about this lovely SUV" and no matter how much he explained his reasoning (he's a gigging musician and even bought some of his amps with him to demonstrate why he needed a sedan or an estate) the dealership just kept saying "you don't want to buy a sedan or an estate" he ended up just buying a merc because he could just get it.
That's all true. Mondeos (Fusions) and Insignias (Le Sabres) are no longer produced for the UK market along with other sedans and wagons like the Mazda 6, Hyundai i40, Citreon C5, Renault Laguna, Toyota Avensis etc. etc. Sales staff will point you in the direction of an SUV or crossover with a tiny trunk. It'll look ugly enough to take part in a science fiction apocalypse movie - and they think you're weird if you don't want black wheels, black badging, black lettering, blacked out windows and a black interior. Fortunately the Germans are sticking by us. I think I'll be holding on to my 3 series for a while.
@@DeadNoob451Here in the US, they still make the “Cross Country” variant of the V90, which is somewhat of an SUV but the closest to an estate we can get from Volvo. We need a station wagon revival, but I don’t see it happening anytime soon.
They discontinued the Fusion (North America version of the Mondeo) here (US) in 2020. I have a 14-year-old one that's been treating me well and as it's getting into its final years I notice there are no replacements from US automakers.
In 2012, my then girlfriend (now wife) and I bought our first new cars, the most car we could afford. She bought a '12 Ford Fiesta and I got a '13 Hyundai Elantra. Both manual. Her out the door was about $12,800 and I was about $16,300. We financed, and combined paid about $400/month, 5 years, around 3.5% interest. Her sister and her husband bought TWO new Nissan Versas at the same time and got a deal for about $22k. These types of things just aren't possible anymore. Instead, you can get a Mitsubishi Mirage for $16,000 and 7% interest.
As someone that much prefers sedans over crossovers, I'm now part of the problem after getting a cx5. I actually went to a used dealership looking for a sedan but realized they were charging the same for a base accord as a grand touring turbo cx5 with almost all the bells and whistles. As much as I like it tho, I'm def looking to get back into a sedan for my next vehicle
The automakers are terrible at reading a room. People want a choice of a cheap no frills car, and the Versa was the last one available, with the demise of the Spark and the Mirage. They're basically giving that entire segment to used cars.
Don't forget the Kia Forte. Top performance trim with every option and a manual transmission is still under $25,000. And the Forte isn't on the chopping block.
Suspect: Our roads degrading. In the Northeast we've gone from bumps, to potholes, to literal chunks of road missing in places, with repair patchwork as bad as the pothole itself. Random debris is everywhere. Last week an 8 foot 4x4 of wood was sitting between lanes on 422 with 4 cars off to the side with damage. 3 months ago I hit a random electrical box in the middle of the lane damaging a control arm cover. Bottom line, I am only buying cars with enough sidewall, ground clearance and suspension to give me a fighting chance in this area.
Good point. I didnt realize the benefit of an SUV until I bought a used 2009 CRV that soaked up all the potholes and bumps in the road WORLDS better than my civic .
I drive my truck when I go into the city. I don't have to worry about wrecking a wheel or the suspension on bad roads, plus I can see better because I sit up higher.
Funny thing about this is that as more people buy heavier vehicles, the more damage that the roads take, road damage is exponential as vehicle weight increases, a 3k lb car does a 1/10th the damage to a road that a 5500lb car does. It is an interesting feedback loop
not to mention the billions(probably) that they lost on the last gen focus because they intentionally put out a transmission with known issues that was never repairable.
I am pro-sedan. Sedans are still good and it seems that luxury marques are still producing sedans. All you need are Camrys and Accords. Always keep the Civics and Corollas. Don’t get rid of them please.
I just returned from Europe, and not only has the American sedan been slipping away, the station wagon is all but gone. The Ford Mondeo/Fusion, Volkswagen Passat, BMW 3-series, Mercedes E-Class, and even the Skoda Superb (never sold here, but deserves mention) are absolutely beautiful wagons. They’re likely cheaper than SUVs, far more fuel efficient, and more fun to drive. Ford had the Flex, but the styling was polarizing. Plus, they were not cheap. The Fusion wagon is a work of art. Unfortunately, with our cheap (relatively) gas, SUVs will continue to get shoved down our throats.
It's not gas prices that are the issues. It's CAFE. Until SUVs stop being exempt from the same rules as smaller cars, the manufactures will keep shoving those down our throats because they get better margins there.
@@My_Old_YT_Account to be fair the jeep avenger is an ev collab between stellantis and a Chinese ev maker with the jeep badge. Kind of like Volvo is a chinese ev now, and Land Rovers use chinese ice engines. I think that’s how they will first get into the US market. No one look under the hood anymore.
buying and using a wagon in America is equivalent to making kids eat their veggies.. Its better for you but you don't get the presence of a huge vehicle... In 2008 it was all about reintroducing gas-efficient sedan cars and the reintroduction of electric vehicles (this is why the Fiesta, Fusion, tesla appeared) and the administration changed in 2016 and we are right back to trucks like its 2005 because the attitude in 2016 was anti Obama legislation and anti-CAFE standards. Most conservatives don't fully agree on our impact on the environment and opened the floodgates for what you see now.... Americans flocked to trucks because the engines are getting smaller and they abused the loophole that was spoken of in the video.. CAFE standards is on the books in Congress.. So now you have engines getting smaller and people running to bigger vehicles.. This creates a opening for electric cars..
The engine terrible for dealerships service department revenue getting replaced by the engine dealerships love (the 3.6), because it'll make it 36,000 miles through its warranty before shredding a timing chain and requiring an out-of-warranty replacement. Mmmmmm, money... "No more reliable good things" say the investors. Same thing with Honda. They ditched the 2.4 for a 1.5L turbo engine that ends up burning oil, experiencing cracked engine blocks, and so much more. Look at Ford with that disaster 1.0L EcoBoom engine used in the 2019-2022 Ecosport and Focus This isn't just a GM issue, this is happening to all the car manufacturers whether you are ready or not, and I think the government is the only entity that can fix this at this point, because "consumers" will keep buying junk cars with junk drivetrains designed to be disposed of after a catastrophic post-warranty failure.
"Cheap" cars have substantial costs to meet regulations. The USA spec Fiat 500 weighed 400 pounds more than the EU version making it slow with unimpressive fuel economy - buy a low mile used Corolla instead - it will last longer and get a little more mpg
@@peytonlutz1literally planned obsolescence these newer drivetrains are designed to fail few thousands of miles later so they can make more money with warranty’s it’s a true business strategy
I've driven a 2016 Ram 1500 for over 5 years until I decided to step down from it in November of 2023. It was younger me that found driving large vehicles appealing but afterwards it was becoming impractical. Ended up getting a 2007 Toyota Corolla that fits my current needs. I remember many times my parents wanted for me to buy a crossover but I never found the appeal for them and still don't. I hope for sedans to make a comeback.
@@angelgjr1999Oh my god someone finally said it. It's all the disadvantages of a traditional 4x4/SUV but now without the offroad capability or utility of those. And somehow with even less space than some similar sized hatchbacks
Its always the parents making the stupid decision to get their kids an oversized death trap. Yeah, little Timmy will be JUST FINE in a 7500 pound 2024 Ford F-350 Super Duty. He TOTALLY needs that to drive to and from school and to his summer job at McDonalds. 😐
I have dual citizenship in Costa Rica. You cant walk outside without seeing atleast 3 sentras around you. They love those cars. B12 and 13s are everywhere
I rented a B13 when I was in Costa Rica. What a great little car. Stick shift, handled well, good gas mileage. Just simple fun reliable transportation.
Costa Rican here, I drive a sports coupe and I hit a cieling on what to get next, new cars are stupid expensive and Honda wants 50k for the base model Civic..... And they refused my request to get an Si or hatchback with a manual
@@flymachine014there is a manual sentra in Canada so at least you might be able to convert the CVT abominations to a reliable transmission when it inevitably kills itself
Another factor I think has hurt the sedan market is the fact that the majority of people can only afford **one** car, and that one car has to be able to move a family or haul stuff & be practical in a way that smaller sedans often aren’t. I traded in my 99 Camry for an 08 Forester b/c while the Camry was a great car, I needed something to haul a bicycle around plus gear. Large families will opt for a Rav4 over a comparable Corolla etc.
You know would be nice if we could get wagons. Drives like a sedan and has the practicality you need. The answer has always been wagons but this is the land of the SUV/CUV.
This right here, nail on the head. I bought an Acura TLX in 2021, met my girlfriend in 2022 and now I have a whole friend group that goes on road trips. Trying to jam 4 people plus luggage and whatever we come back with into my Acura isnt working anymore so I bought an 02 Forester for the space.
I have a 2019 GLI that’s paid off. I want a new car. Shopping for a new sedan SUCKS. It’s either race to the bottom cost cutting or a ridiculous MSRP with a bunch of tech features I won’t need and will wait to break. Never in my life has the new car market been so depressing.
At this point you're probably better off finding low-mileage cars. I saved over $6k doing that with my 6MT Integra earlier this year. Still smelled brand new when I got it
@@PerhapsGuy Yea I’ve been opening up that aperture now as well. There was a 2022 S4 that I should have went for but I wanted to wait for the new A5 reveal and well, I should have just bought the S4. Someone else is driving it with a huge smile on their face.
I think the crappy infrastructure plays a huge part in car market trends.Where I currently live, the roads suck and are poorly maintained.Uneven streets, potholes and high water levels due to floods. Driving high ground clearance SUVS and crossovers really make the commute feel more comfortable.
Vehicles damage roads proportionally to the fourth power of their axle weight (so a two axle vehicle that weights twice as much would cause 16x the damage to the road). This means people being slightly heavier vehicles every year will cause a massive increase in the degradation of our roads, creating a positive feedback loop.
these high ground clearance crossovers and SUVs arent riding better, and youre confusing the reduction in tire sidewalls in a given size car which means a larger one has a "bit" more, which gives it a better ride in relation.
I bought a new sedan (a VW Jetta) in 2018, and if I had to buy a new vehicle today, the options I'd consider (while I can still get any of them with a manual transmission) are all sedans.
18:00 So glad you mentioned CAFE. It's time to reconsider CAFE standards that have unfairly pushed smaller vehicles in to unmanageable MPG ratings so cars keep getting bigger and bigger to fall within those standards and make it easier to push to the public.
Apart of me feels like (some) car manufacturers are intentionally not making their sedans competitive, as to slowly but surely phase them out. Since I was a kid, I’ve always been fascinated by sedans that also manage to have some fun or otherwise appealing factor. I bought my 98 Accord V6 at 18, bought a 2004 Accord 5MT at 20, a 2014 V6 at 21, and most recently a 2006 V6 6 Speed, all of which come from an era when Honda actually made the Accord the “fun” picking out of the family sedan/coupe class. Nothing about the 11th Gen Accord moves me even remotely. Sad.
Shit good point. I’ve been feeling this and just haven’t been able to put my finger on it but you nailed it. They’re purposely pulling punches and then shrugging. It sucks. The new Audi A5 is an example of this. Audi just morphed a bunch of markets into one model and made a master of none and jack of nothing.
Yeah it's like the Ford CEO complaining about how sedans lose them money ( 7:18 ). Buddy nobody wants to buy American sedans because the big three have been sandbaging development of anything that is not a pickup or SUV for decades. No one wants an expensive and crappy American car when imports are literally better, cheaper, and more reliable.
It's insane. The rest of the world has affordable EVs because smaller cars are thing. Here in the US, the only small and affordable EV was the Bolt EV/EUV, and that was straight-up murdered for no good reason. Oh wait, the reason was they wanted a second plant for the Silverado EV. I'm honestly sick of seeing all of the other small EVs that are getting released in other markets with zero chance of coming to the US. I paid only $22k (after taxes and incentives) for a new Bolt EV in 2019 and am coming up on 200,000 trouble-free miles. But shopping for a second EV these past few weeks, I am having trouble find anything for less than $40k (for the base model).
The BMW i3 is cheap for a newer used car of it's caliber. EVs are a deflationary asset because of how rapidly the tech is improving, although I could be talked into a 2017+ i3 with the range extender for purely economic reasons. If used EVs are the way I'm going to be able to get a reasonable car for my needs in the future then used EVs it shall be.
Well, relatively affordable. Because new EVS in UK and Europe are way more expensive than similar ICE cars in the line-up. Secondly average GDP per capita in US is $76K vs $56K across EU, which is a massive difference. And which is one of the reasons why some cars are cheaper (or as you say more affordable) in the Eurozone. I very much doubt that you would agree to an income reduction in exchange of getting a 20% discount on every car you buy.
There's the Bolt EV with its obsolete DC fast charging circuitry (and is being discontinued), the Leaf with its obsolete charging connector and air cooled battery (which should have been discontinued long ago), and a handful of low effort compliance cars (Mini EV, e-golf, 500e, etc). I have to believe there's a market for small cars that aren't pretending to be trucks and aren't designed to be penalty boxes whose only purpose is to shame you into taking the upsell into the next model up.
I am so glad others see whats actually going on here. I am a professional filmmaker and did a video on this very subject. It was a pleasure to watch this video and hear other thoughts and ideas brother. While I am not an EV guy, I understand they have a place in the market and I personally want multiple types of propulsion on the market to drive the competition in both ICE and EV. Always a pleasure to watch your content brother. -Brandon
Its crazy to think something so common is slowly being phased out like this. Wish they would make more hatchbacks instead, seems like a good compromise. Gives plenty of storage space while not looking bulky and being a gas guzzler.
Honestly, it boils down to our ever eroding way of life. Stagnant wages have ground the US into a pulp. We used to be able to afford nice things. Sedans were fine, especially because in many cases, the sedan was one of multiple vehicles. It’s a similar reason why sporty cars are nearly gone now. People can’t afford 2 cars. As such, they need one car that can “do it all”. Unfortunately, that vehicle has become the SUV. It’s roomy enough, peppy enough, fuel economy (😂), but it’s just…average enough to take the market. Plus, our ever growing waistlines due to cheap food not even considered food in other parts of the world means we need bigger vehicles
We've been asking for AWD sedans and hatchbacks for decades upon decades. Auto manufacturers said no you dont want those. So they went all in on a GD LIFTED hatchback with awd and everyone loves it. Its the most bullshit ive ever seen.
I had one of those big bulbous 4th gen Acura TL w/ manual trans and AWD and it was a tank in the snow. I kinda miss that. Now there's nothing like that... Definitely not the manual. The new TLX doesn't have the same charm as those older gens. Everything feels so sterilized nowadays.
More like a loophole in government regulation that exists (and continues to exist) because of lobbying by the auto industry which makes them an enormous amount of money
One more piece of evidence against the government: poor infrastructure. I wouldn't have traded in my Sonata if it wasn't for the fact that the roads are abysmal for anything that isn't a truck or truck-like in suspension, ride, or height. I mean, the Kia/Hyundai theft didn't help in my decision of getting rid of my Sonata (which i actually loved save for the CVT), but that's another story...
Hello. I'm 40 years old and am part of the problem. When i was in my teens and twenties, i was a coupe guy. Not just sedan, but coupe! I loved wrenching on cars and my lifestyle was predominately going to school and not having a family or life outside of that. As I've aged, I've acquired a family and a lifestyle that isn't just hustling books back and forth. The family and I go on trips, we rockhound, I mountain bike, there's groceries, home depot trips, all that fun old person stuff. And a coupe sure as hell doesn't cut it, a sedan doesn't cut it. a wagon or mini-van doesn't even cut it because of ground clearance. I -need- a CUV or SUV at least to keep up with the extra homies in the car, and lifestyle. My sample size of one probably represents a lot of people. I am the problem.
Great report as always, Roman. I agree with your outlook - there isn't one singular factor, but the reality is the market isn't providing sedans people want to buy. Combine that with the wrong incentives, and it's no surprise the number of sedans being sold year over year is in decline. I don't think the market for sedans will ever fully go away. I do think there's always going to be a sizeable number of buyers who just want simple cheap transportation. Those people will never go away, and you can only sell so many $70k pickups and SUVs to rubes with better credit than sense or daddy's money shoppers.
I think the strength of SUVs is that once someone attends to kids in their car seats while standing next to a parked SUV, they will never want to go back to doing that stuff bent over the the door opening of a sedan. And nowadays kids are in those special seats for a few more years than they used to be. So it's not something that's over once the kid is done being an infant.
As a resident of the northeast myself, I think something important to also consider is the very real crisis of failing infrastructure. It's a bit dramatic yes, but the unfortunate truth is that a lot of our roads and highways are so poorly maintained that they present an increasingly adverse environment for anything that isn't a truck or an SUV. When you live in a place like Pennsylvania, where the state flower is the traffic cone, something "less rugged" and lower to the ground is a far less appealing option. (I know this video is three weeks old now but I finally got around to watching it.)
You’re right! The worse our roads get, the bigger the outer diameter of tires have to get to still offer a smooth ride, and our roads are getting worse. However, bigger, heavier cars with larger wheels also damage roads more, so is the root of the problem big cars? It seems like a snowball effect to me. This is why I wish manufacturers would receive lower crash test ratings if their vehicles do more damage to the object or person they hit. It would disincentivize making larger, heavier cars just to do well in crash tests.
@@Jumperman12mac I think you have the cart before the horse. A bad new car is often more attractive than a good used one due to financing terms and warranties.
Nissan executives the last 15 years: "Please GM; PLEASE! Bring Pontiac back ASAP!!! We're tired of our family sedans being associated with poor life choices & Jerry Springer show contestants!"
As I am from Europe, when I made my license in 2018, my instructor said that there are no 3-door hatchbacks, even VW Golf is 5-door now. Fiesta is now only 5-door if even offered as I don't see it on my Ford website. Cars as Renault Megane, Opel Corsa or even BMW 3 series from 5-door options became 5-door only. And my instructor said that it also been a trend of small hatchback cabrioles in early 90s. Fiesta, Golf, Geo Metro, small french/ italian city cars all had cabrioles as availability, now, where are cheap convertibles? They all vanished. My instructor said that we as humans wanna hold to times we knew, and don't wanna acknowledge progress over what we learned as youth, and wanna hold dearly to forms we used to use.
My two cents: One: there is no such thing as a free market. Two: CAFE standards killed cars, created SUVs, and made $80,000 pickup trucks with 84 month loans the modern equivalent of a 1983 Fairmont station wagon.
I can add a few things that are killing sedans. The legislation of safety features that lead to big weight increase in cars plays a role as well. Hell, Honda made a 50 mpg car in the 80s. They were able to do that by making it light weight. Government hoped the car industry would figure it out, but instead they figured out how to work around the system. 0 weight synthetic oil is used almost exclusively now to squeeze out a few mpg at the cost of $100 oil changes. CVTs squeeze the most miles possible out of every gallon at the cost of being boring, unreliable, and in most cases, unrepairable. The appeal of SUVs and Trucks is undeniable. More comfort, more space, more utility, more everything. Very few people get there kicks from driving, so the SUV/Truck is the better tool for going somewhere to have fun.
To me, it's the dealers that want to see small sedans go away. It's all about profit margins, and delars don't make near enough from subcompact and compact sedans like they do on used cars. Nothing will please dealers more than to force poorer customers into the used car market where they think they can put on over on customers and make a huge profit on a used car. It's all about clasism and profits. Full stop.
Well it's not just the dealers, the issue with that chain of logic is how popular private sales in the used car market are the younger the buyer is. So, they very well may think that but they are screwing themselves bigtime in the long run if that's the strategy.
It also seems they invest time into making things that were once simple into complicated things that only a specialist can service. Used to be a simple thing to fix or replace, now its hidden behind a 12 step regime only specialist knows and gatekeeps information to. My car doesn't even have the fuse panel diagram posted anywhere in the car or in the handbook.
I think the biggest issue is value proposition. Why buy a sedan when for the same price you can get a crossover? To the average consumer buying a car, a regular sedan is a utilitarian vehicle. A crossover of the same size has more cargo room by being a hatchback, and has a higher ride height. It is a better utility vehicle than a sedan. Even crappy crossovers give the convincing illusion of increased utility over a sedan counterpart.
lowkey, they are more practical in some ways because you get everything you want.. Especially in a fuel-efficient one. People only complain because of image and they want more selection like the other commenter said..
As a lover of wagons, and knowing it's a concept that's been on life support for the better half of 2 decades or more, it's still upsetting to see it's brothers, the sedan and hatchback, slowly reach the same fate. And knowing when I'm old and gray, my grandchildren will be like, "poppop, what's a sedan/wagon/hatchback?" Breaks my damn heart. To all 3 variants being still made in 2024, I salute you, and you will NOT be forgotten! And the same to the greats that are no longer being made already!
I think a lot of this also applies to the disappearance of sub-compacts in North America. We lost the Ford Fiesta, Honda Fit, and Toyota Yaris. Only to be introduced the Ford EcoSport (now discontinued), the Honda HRV and the Toyota C-HR (also out of production).
Unbelievable how car companies have such short-term memory. Prior to the great recession, they were offering large and very expensive SUVs and trucks When the economy hit the skids, they were all stuck with huge inventories that they could not sell and GM and Chrysler went bankrupt. They could not service the lower end of the market. Déjà vu all over again with a good chance of this repeating as the legacy brands don’t have anything cheap to offer.
Car manufacturers are just doing what makes them the most profits and what the government fuel economy regulations incentivize them to do, which is the same, then and now.
Roman, please consider releasing your long-form content as a book series! I love listening to these stories and sometimes I'd like to read them at my own pace and research alongside of them. If you released them as e-books, I'd gladly buy them for my collection and to support your work!
In my opinion, it's the government's fault for not just killing the Sedan, but making the average size of America's vehicles a whole lot bigger. Stupid policies such as EPA regulations during the oil crisis is exactly why we would need smaller government, but I digress. As a high school debater, I have written a bill that actually helps the environement, by basically flipping the weight of the regulations of smaller cars for larger ones. This can and will decrease the number of gas-guzzling, child-killing tanks we have on our driveways. I strongly advocate for smaller vehicles, like sedans, and seeing all the stigma behind the thought that "well if I don't have the bigger car, I'm going to be the one crushed in a car crash", again makes me lose faith in our country.
Physics makes you lose faith in your country? The bigger/heavier vehicle exerts more energy to the smaller/lighter vehicle during a crash. A vehicle with larger crumple zones and larger airbags is safer than a smaller one. You might not care about your own safety, but I do, and wouldn't put anyone or anything I care about in a vehicle smaller than a midsized CUV.
@@Noah_EIf we're talking policy, we make everyone safer if we change incentives so that the vast majority drive sedan-weight vehicles. It's not just an absolute function of weight, but rather the delta between the vehicles involved in the collision. If nearly all the vehicles are lower-weight, everyone wins.
I feel like the last decade has been a perfect storm of conditions to kill sedans. Companies are like amoebas that care only about growth and margin, and if something has a low enough margin it will be deprioritized, and as automakers look at spreadsheets and see these lower margin sedans theyll clip them from the market in order to keep theyre numbers up. This has the knock on effect of pushing out bigger, more expensive crossovers which can now only be afforded by an older consumer who tend to care more about things like, upright seat heights and a mushy ride. All of this dovetailing into EPA regulations that allow automakers to get away with looser emission standards (lower costs) for these larger vehicles. Its kinda created a nightmare tailspin in the industry where vehicles that would inspire someone to become an enthusiast wont get built, and its sad to see happen.
Its called late stage capitalism. Welcome to the beginning of a Cyberpunk future. The next step will be either civil unrest, mass poverty or global war, and all of those will happen at some point.
The market for basically everything has been cooked since corporations and companies realized that they can just charge literally whatever they want for their products and services, and people will buy them
I think part of the reason is simply that the value proposition of a sedan is no longer as appealing as it once was, due to the advancement of the industry as a whole. These days, the actual physical metal of the car is a much smaller % of the total cost of making a vehicle than it used to be. Electronics, sensors, safety equipment, and the engineering to fit all this into a package that meets emissions is a huge portion of the cost of a new car, and that's something that doesn't really scale down to smaller cars. The manufacturing cost gap between sedans and SUV/CUVs is only going to continue to shrink, and with it one of the main reasons someone might want to buy a sedan-sized car. For most Americans who live in cities designed around big fat trucks, a modern SUV often gives more of what people want for the difference in price.
Genuinely had such a good time watching this premiere with the live chat. Wasted a fking hour at my desk without realizing it. Spot on analysis Roman you have a great week too buddy
Vehicles are so expensive now you need something that can seemingly do everything which sadly seems to be what the crossover is to most people. This is also why you cant get a 2 door pickup anymore because everything now needs to potentially be a family vehicle.
Wild seeing the parraells with the car and bike market. Gravel bikes are dominating mountain bike and roadbike sales. Seems like "mediocre at everything, good at nothing" products are all the rage right now. Consumers are trying to squeeze as much value per dollar as they can.
The automakers' propaganda that gave the suburban mom the perception that a taller, bigger car = safer inherently is a major part of this. My mom wanted a Honda Pilot, my brother's fiance basically forced him into a Nissan Rogue over an equivalently priced Accord/Camry. I personally cannot stand SUV's vs sedans. My sister's CRV with the EXACT SAME DRIVETRAIN as my Accord gets 10-15 mpg less than my Accord and drives (in my opinion) clearly worse. It doesn't have better cargo space (although the hatch vs trunk could be argued to be superior, I disagree, but...). I personally do not even see myself buying an SUV because I never carry 3+ passengers, never go offroad, don't prefer the driving position and I have a truck for truck stuff (mainly home improvement supplies). I don't see the appeal of two row SUVs... they're just objectively worse sedans. If you need 1 vehicle for a do-it-all thing, get a minivan.
We should regulate cars based on price point, instead of a blanket set of regulations. It would disincentivise manufacturers from continuing to raise prices across the board, while simutaneously holding those who can afford to meet extremely strict regulations to actually meet them. Like a mitsubishi mirage should be able to meet the same standards that were expected from all cars in ~2011. Still have airbags, still have cats, but no CAFE standards or required active safety standards.
Just for a bit of context, the cumulative inflation rate in the US over the past 5 years (2019-2024) has increased by 22%, so the increased cost in cars (other than Stellantis, of course) isn't actually all that dramatic. But anywho, this is actually the first Roman Report I've watched, and I love the attention to detail and research. As with most things in life, the answer to "Who Killed the Sedan" is a little bit of everyone. 1) Consumers are very concerned about safety, and as someone who dailys a 1st Gen Neon every day, I can see how being surrounded in walls of trucks and SUVs would be scary. So in response, everyone is buying a bigger car to feel safer, prompting other people to buy bigger cars, etc etc. 2) In a world run by capitalism, manufacturers are going to make what increases their bottom line the most. And nothing is a better example of that than the Wrangler and Bronco, but the same can be said about larger vehicles in general. Because of the looser regulations on larger vehicles, they don't cost as much to develop AND people think they're getting more bang for their buck because a larger vehicle is presumably worth more money in their eyes, so they have no intensive to pour the money into cars that cost more to make and people are afraid to get in. 3) Government regulations need to be restructured to incentivize purchasing smaller vehicles, period. This can be easily be done by a) Removing separate classifications for CAFE standards and creating a tax for vehicles PURELY on its footprint and MPG. This will allow smaller cars to be more lenient with their average MPG, resulting in cheaper production costs and ultimately higher margins. This will also make larger, less efficient vehicles more expensive, meaning that you'll only purchase one if you actually NEED it, which will result in less douchebags driving trucks on the road that are afraid to scratch their beds. b) Changing safety standards for cars to prioritize the safety of both the people inside AND outside the vehicle. People are genuinely afraid to drive smaller cars because they don't wanna die when they get nailed by an SUV or truck, and you can't even blame them. Limiting the height and slope of the front of a vehicle has proven to greatly reduce the amount of permanent damage and deaths, but there's no regulations to enforce this. Hell, the designer of the latest Silverado literally said he wanted it to look like a fist flying down the road, and we're wondering why pedestrian deaths have risen significantly. So yeah, I agree that it's definitely more the automakers fault that sedans are on their way out, but without government regulations changing to incentivize the production of smaller cars AND people's perception of about the safety of driving sedans changing, I don't see the making a solid comeback anytime soon.
We need an analog economy vehicle, without electric braking/steering/emergency brake, digital clusters, chip's for everything like brake lights and so forth.
I think a big signifier was in 1996 when GM axed the Caprice/Roadmaster (Caprice used to sell a million units a year, one model line!) and retooled the plant in Texas to build Tahoe/Yukons.
I remember when I learned that the Honda Fit is being discontinued in the USA, to be replaced by the HR-V "subcompact crossover SUV." Have people gone insane?
I've been complaining about this situation for a while now. I'm so sick of crossovers. They have their place, and in a lot of cases they are nice enough, but when that is almost everything you see, it feels dystopian. I'm not 40 yet, and I feel like an old man yearning for the good ole days with roadster, sedans, and actual small trucks... okay I need to go cool off now.
The reason for the enshittification of the Altima and other sedans is due to CAFE, and its disproportionate effect on smaller vehicles. The automakers have to cheap out on everything to keep the cars even remotely financially viable, and they still lose money.
I’d argue more that 1990’s and early 2000’s Japanese vehicles will be most sought after. Peak combination of reliability with modern features/functionality that are still serviceable by do-it-yourselfers and average local mechanics. Find well cared for examples and scoff them up.
I've been looking for a used Camry for a few weeks now, hoping not to pay more than 4k for a 2002 to 2009 model, and everytime a good deal shows up on marketplace, it gets snatched the day it's posted. I have no idea how I'm supposed to find and buy a car immediately when I basically work two jobs. I've looked at a few Toyota dealerships for used cars, but the price point starts at around 18k for a used car from 2017, and I kinda dread the idea of having to deal with a car salesman...I've never owned a car before, so this would be my first.
I've found luxury models in that era are generally the same price or cheaper and overall better maintained. Take a look at Lexus and Acura while searching. Lots of ES, GS, and TLs are in that price range.
@@Bobbeyjazz everyone wants a used Camry or Accord, anyone pricing a Camry at 4k or below has a shit box. They're overpriced for what they are, there's other cars from that era that are lesser known gems
There is a reason why the chicken tax still exists despite it making no sense for the free market or spirit of competition. There is a reason why both major political parties are threatening tariffs on chinese EVs despite the fact that they meet all emission and safety regulations. American companies don’t want to compete. They don’t want to get better or offer a product at more reasonable price point. And because of this there products suck. Leading to Japan and Germany to fill in the gaps on markets they don’t want to compete for. Ford is happy to have Truck monopoly and GM is happy with their plans to go all in on EVs. For us the consumers this is bad. As competition lead to better products and more competitive prices that favor the buyer’s interests.
What we fail to talk about is the automaker's influence in changing the CAFE regulations. They petitioned the EPA to include SUV's in Light Trucks instead of Passenger Cars. They wanted to kill off the sedan in favor of higher margin vehicles and the CAFE regulations gave them the perfect excuse.
Being poor is so fuckin expensive
Okay, that's brilliant. Points to you.
True. One more quote, "Poverty charges huge interest" example, Cant fix cavity now? pay for tooth implant later, can't pay insurance? ok go bankrupt later. Cant buy a house ? ok pay for rent that will increase each year.
THAT. PART.
But of course, those who come from privilege would never understand. They think that poor people are simply a result of lazy freeloaders that don't want to work hard enough. Never mind things like economic disadvantage, lack of opportunity, and don't forget, high cost of living in conjunction with stagnant wages that leads to things like financial hardship and lack of opportunity.
@@adityaK12don’t forget things like buying in bulk. Can’t afford 12 rolls of toilet paper? Well, you can afford to buy 4 rolls, but they’re more expensive per roll that way. Can’t afford a brand new car with warranty, so you buy whatever used junk you can afford, only have to pay more in costly repairs than a month auto loan, not to mention transportation costs while it’s in the shop because you have to go to work, and are also too busy to work on it yourself.
Just be glad ya ain’t short!! Trucks are insane with the prices
When Corollas got into the $30,000+, sedans were doomed.
You beat me to it!
This is the answer. Affordability is the problem
True. They should not cost that much
I agree. I mean, I’m looking more into small hatchbacks, but it’s a similar problem. Where I am (Canada), an Impreza hatch is $29,000 base price. Dealers are charging $40,000 for a mazda 3 (new and top of the line, but still). Even used, you’re running $25-30,000. Being in my early 20s, I want a small car that’s good on gas, I can park anywhere, and have a bit of fun driving it for cheap. That is not really a reality right now, which sucks. Because so does my FWD Rav4. Sure, it’s a base model 2010, but if the bulbous steering and hair-trigger accelerator pedal represents the best of cars in the future of the market, oh no.
Yeah well a Corolla is basically a Golf, it's gotten bigger. And if you want a car that's as big as it was 15 years ago for a price that's the same as 15 years ago, you have to go one size down
New Polo is as big as the Mk4 Golf
Same era Passat is arguably smaller than a Skoda Octavia
But yeah, US market is dreary. There are no small cars. Corolla is not a small car. And that's hopelessly sad
Manufacturers after spending decades manufacturing consent about SUVs:
"We JuSt Don'T kNoW why people aren't buying sedans"
YT car reviews are not innocent about this. Very few just flat out call it like it is so that they can stay in good graces to get a pre-embaro-date vehicle. Just look at the thumbnail page of any of the bigger channels; they are just basically co-opted advertising to rich boomers, because the majority of the audience isn't interested in a $60k goliath.
The regulatory environment plays an enormous role as well; SUVs are outright favored over cars in the US.
Also worth mentioning that we seem to have hit a critical mass of young people who didn’t grow up in households with small cars, so they don’t realize that an SUV isn’t a straight upgrade and you’re giving things up by going bigger.
@@stuntmonkey00 Most people don't watch YT reviews, and definitely didn't in the 2000s when the shift really started.
@@TheJacobshapiro I argue that the regulatory environment is a result at least in part of the lobbying done by manufacturers.
@@N1CKSOThe UAW was part of the lobbying process also as the higher profit margins on trucks and SUVs benefited them.
The Big Altima Energy conversation always makes my heart sink. I bought an 06 from my Gramma when I started college. It got me through 4 years and then I gave it to my sister for her to finish school. 8 years and 110k miles, a new paint job, new steering knuckles and 2 power steering pumps later she is still going strong. The Nissan Altima will always have a special place in my heart. No matter the stigma
I learned to drive in a 03 Altima, absolute appliance of a car. It had four wheels and a steering column, and could reach highway speed eventually.
I think the issue with the new ones is they're trying to cram so much...not car stuff in.
That’s really nice man :) feel the same way about my 2010 civic 😂. First car, got it used for 3200 because I needed it to get to work. Thing is definitely not the best car but it made a space for itself in my heart, and whenever I get an upgrade I will definitely be sad to get rid of it.
I know they're not the most glorious, but I fell for my mom's 01 Altima a little. The 2.5L was throaty and torquey in front of the 4.10 (approx) final drive. The engine, transmission and suspension were all so very well tuned.
Unfortunately it started falling apart after about 140K miles.
Big-Altima-Energy aside, the Altima really has been the affordable choice for Japanese midsize sedans for a while now. Accord has always been priced too premium-ish and suffers from too high of a resale value, and the Camry is never discounted when new. The Altima however remained affordable and available to the masses. Shame that it's going away
The Nissan Stigma is pretty terrible though
I think your most insightful line here is “sedans would sell better if they were better.” This phenomenon happened in recent history, and to understand it all you need to do is compare the Death Of The Sedan to the Decline Of The Minivan.
Especially during the 90’s and early 00’s, minivans were hot. It resulted in forgotten products like the Mercury Villager, a badge engineered Nissan Quest which was intended by no one to move the needle for excellence in the automotive arts. But, the 1st generation Villager sold 120,000 units over 4 years. Not a smashing success, but it allowed another Ford product to occupy a slice of the market. Then a thing happened, which you can directly compare to the current situation with sedans. The Honda Odyssey and the Toyota Sienna became such obviously superior products that trying to compete with them on merits alone was a complete folly. So the minivan segment which once had dozens of choices is now left with the two obvious champions and a couple of also-rans.
So it makes complete sense that Ford/GM/Dodge gave up on sedans, because history has proven that they will never be a real threat to the Camry, Corolla, Accord, or Civic. It would cost a fortune to develop something in the same league as Honda or Toyota, and they’ve had, what…40 years?… to build credibility to create such a following in the midsize/compact sedan category. And they never did. So why bother?
TL;DR sedans will become a more niche market like minivans led by the best examples
Yeah, I don't see them going away completely. Especially not when the foreign automakers always sold well with sedans.
Now dealerships carrying them in the states is another story.
Europe still seems to have no shortage of options.
happy to say i've steered a friend away from a land rover discovery and towards a ford galaxy.
yea i just sold my 14 impala and got a 25 camry se because i got so sick and tired of fixing the damn thing every month.
Incredibly salient point. It's kind of the same as the ultra-luxury sedan/saloon market in Europe in the '90s - every manufacturer offered a luxo-barge but after the millennium everybody pulled out and gifted the segment to the Germans because no punter wanted a premium vehicle with a value badge on it.
It’s not just the sedans, it’s every damn car on the market. They’re all wildly expensive and the manufacturers have priced the average buyer right out of the market.
Did the manufacturers price them out of the market, or did the market price them out of the market
@@geno3437Manufacturers plus predatory tactics by dealerships.
Let's not pretend that the market provides. Americans want SUVs because they've been told they want them.
Look at RAM 1/2ton trucks there is more than a 500-day supply on the market at some point it will break the market
If the major automakers won’t make commodity vehicles, China will
I'm moving downtown. Hopefully soon I won't have a car at all.
here me out, replace the sedans with station wagons and hatchbacks, all the spaciousness and cargo room of a crossover, but still the size of a sedan.
Had to scroll an awful long ways to see wagons mentioned. Remember when almost every sedan had a wagon version? If Toyota made a wagon version of the 2025 Camry, with the same high-40s mpg and mid-$30ks pricing, I'd sign on the dotted line today. Most crossovers are basically just tall wagons with worse mpg and road noise, and I don't care about off-roading.
with the mazda3 at least the hatch version somehow has less cargo space than the sedan
only car enthusiasts like station wagons. they have a bad rap of being old timey.
Americans don’t want practical fuel efficient vehicles they can easily drive and park.
They did this. They’re called crossovers now because “nobody wanted a wagon”. Unibody Front wheel drive based hatchbacks.
Why the hell do light trucks get an exemption when they have always been the least fuel efficient vehicles to begin with?
The higher profit margins prop up the Big 3 and their higher legacy cost structures.
Lobbying!
Because they used to be made with rocks and twigs and so a argument was made that to keep them cheap they needed to be able to keep using ancient technology. This caveat was created n the 1980s. It didn't make sense even ten years later when the Ford Explorer, Toyota Tacoma, and the tenth generation Ford F-series were all on the road with technology just as advanced if not moreso than the midsize sedans they shared stables with.
Protectionism. Light trucks were shipping from Detroit not tokyo.
Because in the 1980s people bought trucks and SUV’s because they actually needed them. No one bought a huge truck to cruise around in to “look country” or “Merica” or whatever. They weren’t ‘cool’ yet
Manufactuerers are "manufacturing consent", examples:
Remove manual options - "our manual take rate is zero"
Price out V6 models - "our v6 take rate is really low so we dropped it"
Price out sedans - "No one is buying sedans"
Make a model hybrid exclusive - "no one is buying gas cars!"
>Remove manual options - "our manual take rate is zero"
Brother, even in the cars where the manual has consistently been an option (like the Mustang for example) their share of sales has only been going down. Ford had to basically discontinue the manual Bronco because NO ONE bought them. The only manual Bronco I have seen in the wild was discounted up the wazoo at a dealership so they could move it after having it on the lot for nearly 2 years. The lack of an automatic option killed the Focus RS in North America.
@@Clockwork0nions Depends on the type of car. The BRZ/GR86 has around 85% manual transmission sales for example. Almost nobody wants the automatic for that car.
@@Bristecom
I highly doubt over 3/4’s of BRZ/86 sales are manual lmao.
It's like the F150 powerboost, or the Ram 1500 diesel, you cant get it in a work truck trim, so people who are buying a truck to use it, not as a fucking toy, cant ever get the right drivetrain
Well, the manufacturers aren't really calling the shots. The international bankers/government bureaucracy/international climate cartel are.
Cash for Clunkers took an entire generation's ability to buy used from them. 20 years of potential used cars crushed in the name of saving the automakers. So people who could have bought used cars amd been fine were forced into leases and loans they never could have afforded.
Hell, I ended up going out of business because of cash for clunkers. Buy non running used car, rebuild to running, sell for profit. repeat about twice a month, and I used to make about $1.5k profit per car. Those cars were sub $3k after I touched them. Not a single one was made after the turn of the millenium.
Then Cash for Clunkers came and everything was $5k minimum for scrap.
So many good 80's 90's sedans got murdered because of cash for clunkers. Grannies old Cutlass/Century, Towncar Marquis etc. went to the crusher when it still had year's left in it.
Ugh cash for clunkers. Absolutely hated that program. That was me that was impacted by it. Was just leaving grade school. There were barely any cheap used vehicles being sold. One of my only options was a Chevy Corsica. That thing was a POS. So it still left bad options on the market but killed a ton of good options.
bro.. In 2024 that check would be $6500 for your clapped-out 1993 Ford Aerostar.. You're taking that money regardless if you are conservative or liberal... Yes some good cars got caught up but a lot of clunkers did indeed get off the road...
@@plopplop6805 *defending cash for clunkers*
lol
@@plopplop6805 That $6500 won't even cover the interest on the loan for your replacement car these days.
20 years ago I thought SUV's were an obnoxious fad that would eventually go away...
Really wish it was
Like Crocs
It's still obnoxious today and still won't go away anytime soon unfortunately
SUVs were the salvation of US automakers. Trucks were always profitable and they knew how to make them. But not enough people bought them to make it the core of their business.
Then government regulations combined with minivans aren't cool mentality (Though they really aren't) and they were given a license to print money. They were allowed to use the very broad definition of a "truck" and sell station wagons at luxury car prices while meeting non car emissions and fuel economy averages.
@@carlasghost656How dare people buy what they like and manufactures make a profit!
We should all be driving government built and issued E34s!!
The future of cars seems extremely depressing
That is by design. TPTB want all ego satisfaction removed from car ownership.
yeah 2035 and forward is going to be absolutely dismal. no fun anymore, your only choice will be an EV with no engagement or fun, or at best a plug-in hybrid with a godawful CVT attached to it
It’s like 1974 all over again just the beginning
I'd accept that sentiment if it wasn't on a video about the death of sedans. The default fleet vehicle, your grandparents boring car. The depressing corolla 4 door.
@@shroomyesc When you become your grandparents' age, then the fleet car and sedans like the Mercury Medicare and Olds 98 Years Old become interesting.
I'm just tired of every auto maker trying to stuff what would be cheap cars with "luxury" items & being shocked come quarterly results that vehicles haven't sold well.
This. Low trim cars don't need sunroofs and digital instrument clusters. Cloth seats don't need to be heated. Advanced safety tech is expensive and rarely works the way it should. Nobody asked for this shit
theyve mandated things like backup cameras because the mandated safety equipment like pillar airbags and high hoodlines for pedestrain impact made visibility poor. MPG requirements forced formerly small cars to grow to be compliant with CAFE. A 90s sized car would need to achieve 50mpg to not be fined but an F150 sells so well they'll just pay the fine.
@@danhughes1814Digital Clusters are quite a bit cheaper. That's literally just a screen. Like any mediocre phone has one.
Feels like a repeat of the 1970s in that respect.
Just give me the basics; I appreciate modern safety features but I don’t need rear climate controls or heated/ventilated anything.
@@DiamondKingStudios I have friends that buy fully loaded BMWs and the like and I ask them how often they use a lot of the features..."erm just the once when I bought it!"
It all started when Krusty endorsed the Canyonero. 12 yards long two lanes wide, 65 tons of American pride.....We never stood a chance.
😂
Whoaaaa Canyonero! Whoaaaaa! BTW Stellantis sounds like the name of a James Bond villain.
My goodness, you are right!!! 😂
I bought a used turbocharged 2015 Fiat 500 Abarth in the summer of 2020 for $11,950 CAD ($8,900 USD) plus sales tax. No junk fees. 135 HP with the Sport mode off, 160 HP with the Sport mode on. Engineered without a muffler.
I truly love this batshit-crazy tiny car! All my stuff fits in it! I even did a road trip to New Brunswick and Quebec with it! It got me safely there and back! It easily carried all my luggage in the tiny trunk! The 91 octane fuel expense was cheap!
I did mods, I did maintenance, I paid $4,626 CAD (3,100 USD) to have a a blown valve replaced last year along with having some other scheduled work done such as a timing belt service and a coolant change.
Even after adding up all the expenses into the purchase price, I still haven't reached the price the previous owner paid for the car when it was brand new! And with car prices as nuts as they are including the price of any remaining subcompacts on the market, I'll probably never buy a new car ever again!
BTW, the previous owner managed to experience TWO fender-benders with it -- one at each end -- fourteen months apart! Her insurance company was NOT happy! 😂
The car was properly repaired and the original damage fully disclosed by the dealer. I paid the loan in full in 2 years and three months. Total interest was less than a grand Canadian. No trackers added or left behind by the loan company or by my insurance company (I refused).
If I were to sell my car today, I might be able to sell it for more than what I paid for it warts and all even after disclosing the previous damage. That's completely insane! It's a FIAT!!!
I don't want a truck, crossover, or SUV. I've driven many as rentals for work. They're truly horrible cars! They're only good for middle-agers who have been domesticated! I'm gonna keep my tiny Demon on wheels!
And, yes, it's a manual! 😁
I've never understood why 1 person vehicles have to drive a big hulking SUV?
It makes zero sense.
.
Because peoples view of safety in this country is ego driven and self centered.
Because America's obesity rate is almost 45% as of 2023. We're also getting older as a nation. Bigger people need bigger cars, and older people want to sit higher because they have back issues. These factors did no favors to the humble youthful sedan.
People buy a vehicle based on their 110% use case instead of the 90% use case
They buy based on the possibility that they maybe MIGHT have to move a sofa someday, so they buy an SUV or truck
Instead of simply renting or borrowing a truck if you MIGHT have to someday maybe move a sofa and using a smaller car the rest of the time
Same reason why people by coupes, V8s, luxury cars, sports car etc. Because it's desirable. It's down to the emotional aspect rather than logic. If you want logic we would all be driving kei cars. A sedan is actually a really illogical body style when you compare it to other body styles.
Because people can only afford 1 car now. That car needs to be able to drive you and all your friends at least once a month.
Long time watcher, first time commenter. The lack of actual economy cars I think is a big problem. The loss of the Honda Fit in 2020 was really the end of an era because there isn’t really a cool, reliable hot hatch type car that is available anymore. The love for the 90s JDM vehicles has stayed consistent and if there’s any way to touch back on that in today’s market, I think we could see a change. Fuck CAFE btw.
My only hope now is getting a JDM import from Japan. Buy them while you still can
Shit the amount of s10s and 80s-90s rangers people are moving heaven and earth to keep moving and on the road cause folks around me want light trucks is crazy. The new Ford rangers are bigger than f150s from back in the day how is that a small truck at this point?
As someone that loves compact and subcompact hatchbacks, it upsets me so much that basically the only option that's about to be left is the Mirage (and even that seems to be going away), the build quality on which is... lackluster, to put it mildly. The Spark? Gone. Hatchback Rio and Accent? Gone or on the way out. Hatchback Versa? Gone. Yaris? Gone. Fit? Gone. SX4? Gone with Suzuki. Focus? Gone. Fiesta? Gone. Hell, even the Fiat 500? Can't get a new one in the US anymore, hope you want some crossover that's a Jeep Renegade in Fiat styling.
And the fact that I can remember a lot of those having mechanical issues is part of the problem. If you're buying an economy car, part of the reason you're doing it is that you don't probably have a ton to spend on repairs. If the thing is going to be in the shop so often that it isn't available to use or you're spending half (or more) the car's cost again in repairs annually, it has ceased to be an economy car.
I wanted a Fit so badly, but a new Honda Fit was still too expensive for me to ever afford. Manufacturers' customers are NEW car buyers. If you can't buy new, you don't matter.
@@rileycannonSame thing is going on with Corollas and Civics. Model creep
As somone from gen z, most of my peers want sedans or smaller cars. Since we are younger, we have no use for a SUV as we arn't hauling family, going on large shopping trips, or bringing large stuff back from home depot (not like we will ever be able to afford a house anyway). We really just need a personal vehicle that can occationally hold a few friends. I'd imagine as we get older we will start to want SUV's as their practicality becomes more relevant in our lives but for now i'm happy with my GLI.
As a Gen Z...I actually noticed the opposite. Most of us want SUVs. They don't need to be large SUVs. I do know a few people who actually like sedan and coupes. But overall the idea of buying a sedan or such isn't even a consideration.
Gen Z apparently doesn't even want a driver's license. The vast majority can't afford new cars, so they buy whatever is available used, and that's mostly random CUVs because that is what people that can afford to buy new cars have been choosing.
I am late Mill and Early Gen Z
Love my 2008 Hyundai Elentra
I wish Regular Car reviews would do a review on that model, super reliable sedan
I just got my permit and I what a 70's-90's car or truck, but everyone tells me I'm going to get a boring SUV because somehow through those years we just didn't have any safety like three-point seatbelts because somehow a video about a 1950's X frame car against a 2009 chevy means all old cars are bad. just let me have chevy, Toyota, Honda, Cadillac, Acura, Nissan, ford, Mitsubishi, Oldsmobile, Buick, Pontiac mini trucks, sedans, wagons, G body's, square body's and land yachts.
@@baronvonjo1929 Exactly guys on a RCR vid and there's some bias to be had since we're all at least somewhat into cars, but fr the shift for most young consumers (I'd assume) would be to inherent a sedan and then sign off a huge car loan on an SUV/Truck based on "***safety" and "lifestyle" concerns. ***consumers perceived safety by automaker advertising and ego
I got a pontiac G6 through cash for clunkers. I put two hundred and fifty thousand miles on it before I gave it to another relative with only routine maintenance.
I don't think I'll ever see another car like that in my lifetime.
Stepdad g6 just hit 350k, still ticking.
The GM 3900 (3.9) V6. One of the most reliable V6 engines.
I used to like those cars
You probably wont read this, but your writing is incredible. Poetic even
The death of the sedan is secondary to the death of the hatchback and the wagon, both of which are the most compelling arguments against SUVs, and both of which are largely MIA from the American market for reasons that can only go back to the manufacturers.
Wagons and hatchbacks don’t exist n the US market because of CAFE regs. Take that wagon, jack it up an inch, call it an CUV and it’s easier to meet fuel economy standards.
Corolla hatch, Mazda 3 hatch. To say they don't exist is plain ignorance. And there's still plenty on the roads.
@@jasonashley9853 I know, I have a Mazda3 hatchback (a 2021 with AWD even). It's been a fun, economical, and practical car. They aren't dead, but they are indeed dying. VW killed the Golf in the US (other than the GTI) and their small wagon disappeared a while back. Outside of some rare luxury makes, small wagons are all but gone in this market (especially if you count those that haven't been "outbacked" into a quasi CUV) and even those luxury options are rare or need to be special ordered (e.g. Volvo V60).
@@stevelovescars newer cars are all overpriced anyway. Even my 3 was, I got it for 15k at 57k miles. But it's still better than paying 25k+ for a new one.
@@jasonashley9853 Yeah, agree. It's hard to even find a boring gray regular "crossover" for under $35k anymore. I guess this compounds the issue. Knowledgeable car enthusiasts are more comfortable looking at used cars and saving money. This means that NEW cars are more commonly sold to average buyers, thus skewing the availability of cool cars, manual transmissions, and wagons even further into the abyss.
It's kind of strange, I know "New" sedans are dead but if you drive around in any suburban Los Angeles neighborhood the sedan is still the car most people drive (this is not including places where wealth or debt exceed the average). I think the real effect of the sedan death won't be felt for at least another 10-15 years given that people seem to hold on to their cars on average about 12 years.
The length people keep cars and the mileage they drive them to is also increasing, so it might be closer to when gasoline becomes so expensive that running a vehicle with an ICE as a daily driver becomes impractical. Modern cars last much longer than they used to.
... (this is not including places where wealth or debt exceed the average)...
I remember Southern California. To your neighbor, there's no difference between Being Rich and Looking Rich.
how shit would it be for Tesla to be the only sedan on the market left?
It just means it’s what sells, it’s what people want to buy new.
I would rather a Tesla than a CVT/E-CVT shitbox
@@burnttoast9890 This is literally the reason I got a Mazda3 about a month ago. Only car in sold in the US its class with a NA standard automatic instead of a belt.
Can't even get these things with a manual anymore unless you choose a sportier (more expensive) trim level with more crap I don't need, or a turbo that will ensure the car never makes it to 200k miles without a rebuild.
If there were ever a last sedan it will be the 3 series
@@burnttoast9890oh yes...that lovely Tesla build quality. I'd rather take the bus.
Genuinely tried to buy a used Nissan leaf, really liked it and worked well for how much I drive, drove it and loved it, they kept pushing me to the point of getting something new, at the end they actually refused to sell me the car and completely changed the deal last minute when I told them I didn't want anything else.
Never tell a seller that you love or need what they’re selling!!!! Then they know they got you by the balls and they will gouge you
As an aging boomer, I'm often accused of being a curmudgeon, but it has been interesting to watch how marketing has influenced our "needs".
I grew up in Watertown, NY, where winter weather is no stranger. The only people with 4WD vehicles had trucks with plows on them. The rest of us had rear wheel drive sedans and wagons, yet we still got to wherever we needed to go without much difficulty. Now, the message seems to be that driving in any climate without AWD is bordering on suicidal.
The other interesting trend is selling an image. TV commercials lead us to believe that everyone drives off-road the majority of the time. In over 50 years of driving, I have been on many unpaved roads, but nothing like the ads suggest is common. The idea of driving up the side of a mountain never even occurred to me.
So, what do we really need? At least for this geezer, our 2007 front wheel drive Pontiac Vibe met our needs 99% of the time, and 100% when including our small utility trailer. If they still made them, I'd buy another in a heartbeat.
Love this perspective. Only in my late 20s and grew up in Montana with plenty of winter storms. Not 1 snow day in my life, and my family never had problems with the old '97 Camry. Fast forward I'm living in Colorado now. I thought it was the people here, doesn't matter how much if there is any snow on the Forcast it seems they shut half the town down and send out storm warning alerts. Can't tell you how many people I've seen off the side of the highway with snow that melted same day! Starting to think they really do need better cars....
@@Mobius_ll I'm not sure what a better car would have to be, given the way many people drive. We live in Rochester, NY now. While 4WD vehicles should be more capable for winter driving, SUVs and trucks seem to be the vehicles we most often see in the median or off the side of the road. The fact that they're easier to get going doesn't mean they stop or steer any better. Adding more weight and a higher center of gravity to the equation can also result in a thrilling wheels-up experience. A good set of winter tires and some common sense seems to be the best approach to me. But, as I mentioned, I'm just a grumpy old man. 😊
Matter of fact while driving on snow covered roads most of the vehicles off the road in the ditch are 4 wheel drive. They become over confident and end up off the road. Learning to drive according to conditions is a lost art.
On those adverts, having recently gotten back from a vacation in Germany, in mountainous regions where the driveway to our house actually was like those adverts:
We managed perfectly fine with our VW Sharan Minivan. Which isn't a car, but the wheels are far enough apart to effectively make it a scaled up one.
The only hairy moment was the initial drive up due to the significant back load on a front wheel car from us bringing too much crap with us, forcing us to send it and hammer the anti-skid system.
Which still made it drive up safely and controllably and was fully our mistake from sending an overloaded car up a very steep rocky road.
But afterwards, the rocky roads were easy to manage, even in rainy weather deepening the steep rocky trenches.
Additional, I am confident that I would have managed the same roads with our VW Up!, a proper compact city-car.
As proven by even seeing a few around, along with the people living here either having normal cars or vans making it up the same road.
Barring complete off-road monsters forgoing comfort for the roads explicitly and rightfully marked as unsuitable for normal cars, those lacking any form of maintenance and having deep trenches most SUVs would not handle either.
It takes some careful manoeuvring to make it through without giving the suspension or clutch a beating, which we picked up pretty much immediately.
Traction control provides 2-wheel drive when needed. That is much better than one-wheel drive.
No need for 4-wheel drive on paved roads.
I was at a Toyota dealership yesterday. They did not have cars for sale.
If you had cash money in hand and wanted a Corolla, Camry, Crown, Supra, 86, RAV4, Venza you are out of luck. They’re not available, but would you like to order a brand new one?
They did have a couple dozen wildly overpriced Tacomas filling their lot and 3 unsold electrics on deep discount.
@@billred3820 The EV market IS growing fast, despite not growing AS FAST as it was 3 years ago. It's still record after record.
Tacomas are their big seller. a truck that isn't too big or too small and can still haul a lot
@@GiordanDiodato but still costs what a full-size does? Idk about that. F150 still the best selling.
@@nuke2373 EVs will never be practical for those who don’t own a home. The cost to charge in public is dangerously close per mile to ICE.
@@nuke2373 The halved range in winter climates, the cost and time to charge in public, plus the perception about repairs( or lack thereof) are really going to keep lower income folks from ever considering investing in an EV. EVs are awesome performance cars and a great way for the rich to flex on each other with how much lithium they can buy. But as the video says, eventually ICE used sedans will dry up leaving nothing but short range irrepairable overpriced EVs available to normal folks.
This couldn’t feel more like a conscious effort at taking away affordable transportation from the masses.
Drivers are incapable of stopping at a stop line and feel compelled to continually inch out into traffic making right turn drivers inable to see around the vehicle turning left and vice versa. So the race to see who can get the tallest seat on the road has been Tha name of the game for the last 20 years or so
Drives me nuts. I deal with this crap at work all the time. We have two exit lanes parallel to one another. I ALWAYS stop at the stop bar. They stop several feet back. Whoever makes it to their bar first should go first. But I always end up in a pissing match because they don't know how to use the stop bar. So annoying.
I swear why the fuck do people keep inching into the intersection when at a red light? YOURE GOING STRAIGHT STOP PULLING UP LIKE YOURE ABOUT TO GO I CANT SEE
so a UK perspective here. sedans (and wagons) do still sell here, but it's usually the big 3 german brands (BMW, audi and merc) because they actually advertise them and make them easy to buy. my friend was trying to buy a mondeo a few years ago (before they stopped making them) and the dealership was just ignoring him whenever he said he wanted one and just saying "we've got this nice crossover" i want a mondeo "or how about this lovely SUV" and no matter how much he explained his reasoning (he's a gigging musician and even bought some of his amps with him to demonstrate why he needed a sedan or an estate) the dealership just kept saying "you don't want to buy a sedan or an estate"
he ended up just buying a merc because he could just get it.
That's all true. Mondeos (Fusions) and Insignias (Le Sabres) are no longer produced for the UK market along with other sedans and wagons like the Mazda 6, Hyundai i40, Citreon C5, Renault Laguna, Toyota Avensis etc. etc.
Sales staff will point you in the direction of an SUV or crossover with a tiny trunk. It'll look ugly enough to take part in a science fiction apocalypse movie - and they think you're weird if you don't want black wheels, black badging, black lettering, blacked out windows and a black interior.
Fortunately the Germans are sticking by us. I think I'll be holding on to my 3 series for a while.
Sounds like an ideal Volvo estate customer. 😊
@@MongooseTacticoolthey still make those?
@@DeadNoob451Here in the US, they still make the “Cross Country” variant of the V90, which is somewhat of an SUV but the closest to an estate we can get from Volvo.
We need a station wagon revival, but I don’t see it happening anytime soon.
They discontinued the Fusion (North America version of the Mondeo) here (US) in 2020. I have a 14-year-old one that's been treating me well and as it's getting into its final years I notice there are no replacements from US automakers.
In 2012, my then girlfriend (now wife) and I bought our first new cars, the most car we could afford. She bought a '12 Ford Fiesta and I got a '13 Hyundai Elantra. Both manual. Her out the door was about $12,800 and I was about $16,300. We financed, and combined paid about $400/month, 5 years, around 3.5% interest. Her sister and her husband bought TWO new Nissan Versas at the same time and got a deal for about $22k. These types of things just aren't possible anymore. Instead, you can get a Mitsubishi Mirage for $16,000 and 7% interest.
As someone that much prefers sedans over crossovers, I'm now part of the problem after getting a cx5. I actually went to a used dealership looking for a sedan but realized they were charging the same for a base accord as a grand touring turbo cx5 with almost all the bells and whistles. As much as I like it tho, I'm def looking to get back into a sedan for my next vehicle
The automakers are terrible at reading a room. People want a choice of a cheap no frills car, and the Versa was the last one available, with the demise of the Spark and the Mirage. They're basically giving that entire segment to used cars.
Don't forget the Kia Forte. Top performance trim with every option and a manual transmission is still under $25,000. And the Forte isn't on the chopping block.
Because a used Civic or Corolla is better than a new Mirage or Versa. Well built and reliable always trumps cheap to buy in the long run.
@@Noah_EI wouldn't really agree, the Kia Rio had all of that, too bad they axed it
It was the CAFE footprint rule. Nobody is willing to pay the $2000 Smol Car tax on a $17000 car.
@@Noah_E I bought a Manual versa new in '18. It's been the most lovely little appliance of a car. Nissan's are fine if you can avoid the CVT
Suspect: Our roads degrading. In the Northeast we've gone from bumps, to potholes, to literal chunks of road missing in places, with repair patchwork as bad as the pothole itself. Random debris is everywhere. Last week an 8 foot 4x4 of wood was sitting between lanes on 422 with 4 cars off to the side with damage. 3 months ago I hit a random electrical box in the middle of the lane damaging a control arm cover. Bottom line, I am only buying cars with enough sidewall, ground clearance and suspension to give me a fighting chance in this area.
Good point. I didnt realize the benefit of an SUV until I bought a used 2009 CRV that soaked up all the potholes and bumps in the road WORLDS better than my civic .
I drive my truck when I go into the city. I don't have to worry about wrecking a wheel or the suspension on bad roads, plus I can see better because I sit up higher.
Funny thing about this is that as more people buy heavier vehicles, the more damage that the roads take, road damage is exponential as vehicle weight increases, a 3k lb car does a 1/10th the damage to a road that a 5500lb car does. It is an interesting feedback loop
@@spencerpenguin another point for our first suspect
@@spencerpenguinit's usually the commercial trucks absolutely fuсking up the road
Ford saying they moved to electric vehicles because they “make money” is rich considering they lost billions on the Mach E and Lightning.
you forgot to read the "in the long run" part of the sentence
Ford must be smoking crack they can’t do gasoline vehicles right they have no business going electric
not to mention the billions(probably) that they lost on the last gen focus because they intentionally put out a transmission with known issues that was never repairable.
And they're all rotting on dealer lots too
@@acenine8149 Ford is shit they can't make good vehicles they have the most recalls
I am pro-sedan. Sedans are still good and it seems that luxury marques are still producing sedans. All you need are Camrys and Accords. Always keep the Civics and Corollas. Don’t get rid of them please.
Still blaming the government for slowly incentivizing larger vehicles in general. Today’s Civic is huge compared to a Civic from 20 years ago.
I just returned from Europe, and not only has the American sedan been slipping away, the station wagon is all but gone. The Ford Mondeo/Fusion, Volkswagen Passat, BMW 3-series, Mercedes E-Class, and even the Skoda Superb (never sold here, but deserves mention) are absolutely beautiful wagons. They’re likely cheaper than SUVs, far more fuel efficient, and more fun to drive.
Ford had the Flex, but the styling was polarizing. Plus, they were not cheap. The Fusion wagon is a work of art.
Unfortunately, with our cheap (relatively) gas, SUVs will continue to get shoved down our throats.
It's not gas prices that are the issues. It's CAFE. Until SUVs stop being exempt from the same rules as smaller cars, the manufactures will keep shoving those down our throats because they get better margins there.
Car of the year in the EU was a EV Jeep CUV; go figure, right?
@@brookvillekansas90>car of the year
>Jeep
Keeeeeeeeeeeeek we're so fuсked
@@My_Old_YT_Account to be fair the jeep avenger is an ev collab between stellantis and a Chinese ev maker with the jeep badge. Kind of like Volvo is a chinese ev now, and Land Rovers use chinese ice engines. I think that’s how they will first get into the US market. No one look under the hood anymore.
buying and using a wagon in America is equivalent to making kids eat their veggies.. Its better for you but you don't get the presence of a huge vehicle... In 2008 it was all about reintroducing gas-efficient sedan cars and the reintroduction of electric vehicles (this is why the Fiesta, Fusion, tesla appeared) and the administration changed in 2016 and we are right back to trucks like its 2005 because the attitude in 2016 was anti Obama legislation and anti-CAFE standards. Most conservatives don't fully agree on our impact on the environment and opened the floodgates for what you see now.... Americans flocked to trucks because the engines are getting smaller and they abused the loophole that was spoken of in the video.. CAFE standards is on the books in Congress.. So now you have engines getting smaller and people running to bigger vehicles.. This creates a opening for electric cars..
It all started happening when GM canceled the 3800
The engine terrible for dealerships service department revenue getting replaced by the engine dealerships love (the 3.6), because it'll make it 36,000 miles through its warranty before shredding a timing chain and requiring an out-of-warranty replacement. Mmmmmm, money... "No more reliable good things" say the investors.
Same thing with Honda. They ditched the 2.4 for a 1.5L turbo engine that ends up burning oil, experiencing cracked engine blocks, and so much more. Look at Ford with that disaster 1.0L EcoBoom engine used in the 2019-2022 Ecosport and Focus
This isn't just a GM issue, this is happening to all the car manufacturers whether you are ready or not, and I think the government is the only entity that can fix this at this point, because "consumers" will keep buying junk cars with junk drivetrains designed to be disposed of after a catastrophic post-warranty failure.
"Cheap" cars have substantial costs to meet regulations. The USA spec Fiat 500 weighed 400 pounds more than the EU version making it slow with unimpressive fuel economy - buy a low mile used Corolla instead - it will last longer and get a little more mpg
There is a lot of truth to this statement. The Ford 4.6L in the Panther was the next domino to fall.
Ford panther platform getting axed around the same time GM killed the 3800 didn't help any.
@@peytonlutz1literally planned obsolescence these newer drivetrains are designed to fail few thousands of miles later so they can make more money with warranty’s it’s a true business strategy
I've driven a 2016 Ram 1500 for over 5 years until I decided to step down from it in November of 2023. It was younger me that found driving large vehicles appealing but afterwards it was becoming impractical. Ended up getting a 2007 Toyota Corolla that fits my current needs. I remember many times my parents wanted for me to buy a crossover but I never found the appeal for them and still don't. I hope for sedans to make a comeback.
I’d rather have a a hatchback or see station wagons come back over a crossover any day.
Crossovers are the worst of both worlds. Cramped interiors with the crappy handling of an suv
@@angelgjr1999Oh my god someone finally said it. It's all the disadvantages of a traditional 4x4/SUV but now without the offroad capability or utility of those. And somehow with even less space than some similar sized hatchbacks
@@angelgjr1999Every time I get in someone’s crossover, I either wish I was in my ‘11 Sequoia or my ‘09 Corolla 😂
Its always the parents making the stupid decision to get their kids an oversized death trap. Yeah, little Timmy will be JUST FINE in a 7500 pound 2024 Ford F-350 Super Duty. He TOTALLY needs that to drive to and from school and to his summer job at McDonalds. 😐
EV hype has absolutely _cratered_ this year. Any manufacturer pinning its hopes entirely on them at this point is digging its own grave.
My man you can just say it: The entire non-luxury car market is cooked.
I have dual citizenship in Costa Rica. You cant walk outside without seeing atleast 3 sentras around you. They love those cars. B12 and 13s are everywhere
I rented a B13 when I was in Costa Rica. What a great little car. Stick shift, handled well, good gas mileage. Just simple fun reliable transportation.
These are truly great cars indeed
Costa Rican here, I drive a sports coupe and I hit a cieling on what to get next, new cars are stupid expensive and Honda wants 50k for the base model Civic..... And they refused my request to get an Si or hatchback with a manual
Another costa rican here, mom had a b13 growing up, damn tank it was. Moved to the usa and alas, nothing but oversized suv's that cant even offroad.
@@flymachine014there is a manual sentra in Canada so at least you might be able to convert the CVT abominations to a reliable transmission when it inevitably kills itself
Another factor I think has hurt the sedan market is the fact that the majority of people can only afford **one** car, and that one car has to be able to move a family or haul stuff & be practical in a way that smaller sedans often aren’t. I traded in my 99 Camry for an 08 Forester b/c while the Camry was a great car, I needed something to haul a bicycle around plus gear. Large families will opt for a Rav4 over a comparable Corolla etc.
You know would be nice if we could get wagons. Drives like a sedan and has the practicality you need. The answer has always been wagons but this is the land of the SUV/CUV.
@@chorseundgrd This or at least a mid-size hatch could be a thing.
@@roflcopter117 I'm looking to replace a CRV in the next 2-4 years and I'm watching the development of the Civic Hatch with great interest...
This right here, nail on the head. I bought an Acura TLX in 2021, met my girlfriend in 2022 and now I have a whole friend group that goes on road trips. Trying to jam 4 people plus luggage and whatever we come back with into my Acura isnt working anymore so I bought an 02 Forester for the space.
@@chorseundgrd Wagons suck dude. That's why most people that say they love wagons don't have wagons. It's all just pretend.
I have a 2019 GLI that’s paid off. I want a new car. Shopping for a new sedan SUCKS. It’s either race to the bottom cost cutting or a ridiculous MSRP with a bunch of tech features I won’t need and will wait to break. Never in my life has the new car market been so depressing.
At this point you're probably better off finding low-mileage cars. I saved over $6k doing that with my 6MT Integra earlier this year. Still smelled brand new when I got it
You picked the wrong vehicle if you wanted it to not break.
@@PerhapsGuy Yea I’ve been opening up that aperture now as well. There was a 2022 S4 that I should have went for but I wanted to wait for the new A5 reveal and well, I should have just bought the S4. Someone else is driving it with a huge smile on their face.
@@MillVillage Knock on wood, it hasn’t given me an issue yet. I’ve progressed in my career and just want a nicer car, otherwise I’d just keep my GLI
You dont like the integra? @@chorseundgrd
I think the crappy infrastructure plays a huge part in car market trends.Where I currently live, the roads suck and are poorly maintained.Uneven streets, potholes and high water levels due to floods.
Driving high ground clearance SUVS and crossovers really make the commute feel more comfortable.
I agree and I am a small car guy.
Vehicles damage roads proportionally to the fourth power of their axle weight (so a two axle vehicle that weights twice as much would cause 16x the damage to the road).
This means people being slightly heavier vehicles every year will cause a massive increase in the degradation of our roads, creating a positive feedback loop.
these high ground clearance crossovers and SUVs arent riding better, and youre confusing the reduction in tire sidewalls in a given size car which means a larger one has a "bit" more, which gives it a better ride in relation.
I bought a new sedan (a VW Jetta) in 2018, and if I had to buy a new vehicle today, the options I'd consider (while I can still get any of them with a manual transmission) are all sedans.
damn you watch this? love your content!
18:00 So glad you mentioned CAFE. It's time to reconsider CAFE standards that have unfairly pushed smaller vehicles in to unmanageable MPG ratings so cars keep getting bigger and bigger to fall within those standards and make it easier to push to the public.
CAFE regulations were never an accident. It was entirely done on purpose to stifle development. And it will likely never be repealed.
@@kennygaming208 they don't give a fuck about what we want
@@OtherDalfite they can't even tell the difference between a lobbyist calling then and a normal person bro just call them they are stupid
Apart of me feels like (some) car manufacturers are intentionally not making their sedans competitive, as to slowly but surely phase them out. Since I was a kid, I’ve always been fascinated by sedans that also manage to have some fun or otherwise appealing factor. I bought my 98 Accord V6 at 18, bought a 2004 Accord 5MT at 20, a 2014 V6 at 21, and most recently a 2006 V6 6 Speed, all of which come from an era when Honda actually made the Accord the “fun” picking out of the family sedan/coupe class. Nothing about the 11th Gen Accord moves me even remotely. Sad.
Shit good point. I’ve been feeling this and just haven’t been able to put my finger on it but you nailed it. They’re purposely pulling punches and then shrugging. It sucks. The new Audi A5 is an example of this. Audi just morphed a bunch of markets into one model and made a master of none and jack of nothing.
Yeah it's like the Ford CEO complaining about how sedans lose them money ( 7:18 ). Buddy nobody wants to buy American sedans because the big three have been sandbaging development of anything that is not a pickup or SUV for decades. No one wants an expensive and crappy American car when imports are literally better, cheaper, and more reliable.
It's insane. The rest of the world has affordable EVs because smaller cars are thing. Here in the US, the only small and affordable EV was the Bolt EV/EUV, and that was straight-up murdered for no good reason. Oh wait, the reason was they wanted a second plant for the Silverado EV. I'm honestly sick of seeing all of the other small EVs that are getting released in other markets with zero chance of coming to the US. I paid only $22k (after taxes and incentives) for a new Bolt EV in 2019 and am coming up on 200,000 trouble-free miles. But shopping for a second EV these past few weeks, I am having trouble find anything for less than $40k (for the base model).
There is the leaf too I guess.
No american will buy an 80 mile range EV for the price of a Camry.
The BMW i3 is cheap for a newer used car of it's caliber. EVs are a deflationary asset because of how rapidly the tech is improving, although I could be talked into a 2017+ i3 with the range extender for purely economic reasons. If used EVs are the way I'm going to be able to get a reasonable car for my needs in the future then used EVs it shall be.
Well, relatively affordable. Because new EVS in UK and Europe are way more expensive than similar ICE cars in the line-up. Secondly average GDP per capita in US is $76K vs $56K across EU, which is a massive difference. And which is one of the reasons why some cars are cheaper (or as you say more affordable) in the Eurozone. I very much doubt that you would agree to an income reduction in exchange of getting a 20% discount on every car you buy.
There's the Bolt EV with its obsolete DC fast charging circuitry (and is being discontinued), the Leaf with its obsolete charging connector and air cooled battery (which should have been discontinued long ago), and a handful of low effort compliance cars (Mini EV, e-golf, 500e, etc).
I have to believe there's a market for small cars that aren't pretending to be trucks and aren't designed to be penalty boxes whose only purpose is to shame you into taking the upsell into the next model up.
I am so glad others see whats actually going on here. I am a professional filmmaker and did a video on this very subject. It was a pleasure to watch this video and hear other thoughts and ideas brother. While I am not an EV guy, I understand they have a place in the market and I personally want multiple types of propulsion on the market to drive the competition in both ICE and EV. Always a pleasure to watch your content brother. -Brandon
Why are you saying you aren't an "EV guy", like burning gas is somehow an important part of your identity?
Its crazy to think something so common is slowly being phased out like this. Wish they would make more hatchbacks instead, seems like a good compromise. Gives plenty of storage space while not looking bulky and being a gas guzzler.
Honestly, it boils down to our ever eroding way of life. Stagnant wages have ground the US into a pulp.
We used to be able to afford nice things. Sedans were fine, especially because in many cases, the sedan was one of multiple vehicles. It’s a similar reason why sporty cars are nearly gone now. People can’t afford 2 cars. As such, they need one car that can “do it all”. Unfortunately, that vehicle has become the SUV. It’s roomy enough, peppy enough, fuel economy (😂), but it’s just…average enough to take the market. Plus, our ever growing waistlines due to cheap food not even considered food in other parts of the world means we need bigger vehicles
Roman's RCR of the '79 Ford Granada proves YOU CAN afford a full sized sedan, and have an RX-7 toy for weekends!
@@barusu1300 damnit, ya got me. I wonder how many 79’ Granada’s my local Ford dealership has in stock right now
Trillions are missing from the economy
We've been asking for AWD sedans and hatchbacks for decades upon decades. Auto manufacturers said no you dont want those.
So they went all in on a GD LIFTED hatchback with awd and everyone loves it. Its the most bullshit ive ever seen.
Thank you for the observation I have been screaming for a decade or more.
“Nobody wants wagons”
CROSSOVERS ARE JUST WAGONS!!
A ton of the newer corollas and civics i see on the road are hatchbacks lmao
I had one of those big bulbous 4th gen Acura TL w/ manual trans and AWD and it was a tank in the snow. I kinda miss that. Now there's nothing like that... Definitely not the manual. The new TLX doesn't have the same charm as those older gens. Everything feels so sterilized nowadays.
a what lifted hatchback?
@@Jasontyo No, crossovers are wagons but in such a way that they get the utility loss that an SUV gets from being shaped like an ugly bulbous mass
Due to government regulation. Less regulations on light trucks means higher profit margins per unit by selling SUVs or CuVs.
Been like that since the 60s yet sedans are only recently starting to go away so that can’t be it.
And literally more pollution overall because more trucks are on the road. Making the regulation moot
More like a loophole in government regulation that exists (and continues to exist) because of lobbying by the auto industry which makes them an enormous amount of money
@@gayasparagusthat’s not right, we can see the pollution output of vehicles in the US and it’s down despite the proliferation of light trucks
It's CAFE standards. That's fairly recent and incentives SUVs. It was also the death of the wagon @@Frusie
One more piece of evidence against the government: poor infrastructure. I wouldn't have traded in my Sonata if it wasn't for the fact that the roads are abysmal for anything that isn't a truck or truck-like in suspension, ride, or height.
I mean, the Kia/Hyundai theft didn't help in my decision of getting rid of my Sonata (which i actually loved save for the CVT), but that's another story...
Ironically the weight of pickup trucks and SUVs causes the roads to degrade even faster
Hello. I'm 40 years old and am part of the problem. When i was in my teens and twenties, i was a coupe guy. Not just sedan, but coupe! I loved wrenching on cars and my lifestyle was predominately going to school and not having a family or life outside of that. As I've aged, I've acquired a family and a lifestyle that isn't just hustling books back and forth. The family and I go on trips, we rockhound, I mountain bike, there's groceries, home depot trips, all that fun old person stuff. And a coupe sure as hell doesn't cut it, a sedan doesn't cut it. a wagon or mini-van doesn't even cut it because of ground clearance. I -need- a CUV or SUV at least to keep up with the extra homies in the car, and lifestyle. My sample size of one probably represents a lot of people. I am the problem.
Y2k baby here. Just bought a 2020 G70 the other week and have no regrets. I'll never stray from the sedan life.
Nice choice I got the g80 from 2017 fully paid off and love it. That car probably made me a loyal customer for that brand now.
I'm keeping my high mileage 2012 Accord V6 forever. I'm priced out of the new car market. It's getting silly.
Great report as always, Roman.
I agree with your outlook - there isn't one singular factor, but the reality is the market isn't providing sedans people want to buy. Combine that with the wrong incentives, and it's no surprise the number of sedans being sold year over year is in decline.
I don't think the market for sedans will ever fully go away. I do think there's always going to be a sizeable number of buyers who just want simple cheap transportation. Those people will never go away, and you can only sell so many $70k pickups and SUVs to rubes with better credit than sense or daddy's money shoppers.
I think the strength of SUVs is that once someone attends to kids in their car seats while standing next to a parked SUV, they will never want to go back to doing that stuff bent over the the door opening of a sedan. And nowadays kids are in those special seats for a few more years than they used to be. So it's not something that's over once the kid is done being an infant.
Minivan……
@@Travisdud Minivans are still lower than SUVs.
As a resident of the northeast myself, I think something important to also consider is the very real crisis of failing infrastructure.
It's a bit dramatic yes, but the unfortunate truth is that a lot of our roads and highways are so poorly maintained that they present an increasingly adverse environment for anything that isn't a truck or an SUV.
When you live in a place like Pennsylvania, where the state flower is the traffic cone, something "less rugged" and lower to the ground is a far less appealing option.
(I know this video is three weeks old now but I finally got around to watching it.)
You’re right! The worse our roads get, the bigger the outer diameter of tires have to get to still offer a smooth ride, and our roads are getting worse.
However, bigger, heavier cars with larger wheels also damage roads more, so is the root of the problem big cars? It seems like a snowball effect to me. This is why I wish manufacturers would receive lower crash test ratings if their vehicles do more damage to the object or person they hit. It would disincentivize making larger, heavier cars just to do well in crash tests.
I'm gonna quote Jeremy Clarkson at the end of his "Who killed the British car industry?" special: *It was all of them!*
The Nissan Altima had the low credit score segment to itself after Dodge killed the Avenger.
That right there is sad to see. All the bad credit buyers ruin the reputation of the car
@@Jumperman12mac I think you have the cart before the horse. A bad new car is often more attractive than a good used one due to financing terms and warranties.
Highly melanated
Nissan executives the last 15 years:
"Please GM; PLEASE! Bring Pontiac back ASAP!!! We're tired of our family sedans being associated with poor life choices & Jerry Springer show contestants!"
As I am from Europe, when I made my license in 2018, my instructor said that there are no 3-door hatchbacks, even VW Golf is 5-door now. Fiesta is now only 5-door if even offered as I don't see it on my Ford website. Cars as Renault Megane, Opel Corsa or even BMW 3 series from 5-door options became 5-door only. And my instructor said that it also been a trend of small hatchback cabrioles in early 90s. Fiesta, Golf, Geo Metro, small french/ italian city cars all had cabrioles as availability, now, where are cheap convertibles? They all vanished. My instructor said that we as humans wanna hold to times we knew, and don't wanna acknowledge progress over what we learned as youth, and wanna hold dearly to forms we used to use.
My two cents:
One: there is no such thing as a free market.
Two: CAFE standards killed cars, created SUVs, and made $80,000 pickup trucks with 84 month loans the modern equivalent of a 1983 Fairmont station wagon.
I can add a few things that are killing sedans. The legislation of safety features that lead to big weight increase in cars plays a role as well. Hell, Honda made a 50 mpg car in the 80s. They were able to do that by making it light weight. Government hoped the car industry would figure it out, but instead they figured out how to work around the system. 0 weight synthetic oil is used almost exclusively now to squeeze out a few mpg at the cost of $100 oil changes. CVTs squeeze the most miles possible out of every gallon at the cost of being boring, unreliable, and in most cases, unrepairable. The appeal of SUVs and Trucks is undeniable. More comfort, more space, more utility, more everything. Very few people get there kicks from driving, so the SUV/Truck is the better tool for going somewhere to have fun.
To me, it's the dealers that want to see small sedans go away. It's all about profit margins, and delars don't make near enough from subcompact and compact sedans like they do on used cars.
Nothing will please dealers more than to force poorer customers into the used car market where they think they can put on over on customers and make a huge profit on a used car.
It's all about clasism and profits. Full stop.
Well it's not just the dealers, the issue with that chain of logic is how popular private sales in the used car market are the younger the buyer is. So, they very well may think that but they are screwing themselves bigtime in the long run if that's the strategy.
I still daily my ‘86 Maxima. Since the late ‘90s/early ‘00s manufacturers have been purposefully under engineering their cars for reduced reliability.
It’s from over engineering, which leave it to an engineer to a solved problem into a confounding one.
It also seems they invest time into making things that were once simple into complicated things that only a specialist can service. Used to be a simple thing to fix or replace, now its hidden behind a 12 step regime only specialist knows and gatekeeps information to. My car doesn't even have the fuse panel diagram posted anywhere in the car or in the handbook.
Cheers to that, I daily drive a 2003 Maxima 6-speed. Don’t ever plan on getting rid of it.
Props everyone wants to “upgrade” every 2-3 years
I think the biggest issue is value proposition. Why buy a sedan when for the same price you can get a crossover?
To the average consumer buying a car, a regular sedan is a utilitarian vehicle. A crossover of the same size has more cargo room by being a hatchback, and has a higher ride height. It is a better utility vehicle than a sedan. Even crappy crossovers give the convincing illusion of increased utility over a sedan counterpart.
Everyone doesnt want a crossover. I want a seperate sedan and suv
lowkey, they are more practical in some ways because you get everything you want.. Especially in a fuel-efficient one. People only complain because of image and they want more selection like the other commenter said..
In the early to mid 2000s when automakers introduced crew cab half ton pickups it was a wrap for sedans in the south and rural areas.
It straight up murdered the regular cab truck too, for the guy who just wanted a regular normal truck...
As a lover of wagons, and knowing it's a concept that's been on life support for the better half of 2 decades or more, it's still upsetting to see it's brothers, the sedan and hatchback, slowly reach the same fate. And knowing when I'm old and gray, my grandchildren will be like, "poppop, what's a sedan/wagon/hatchback?"
Breaks my damn heart. To all 3 variants being still made in 2024, I salute you, and you will NOT be forgotten! And the same to the greats that are no longer being made already!
I think a lot of this also applies to the disappearance of sub-compacts in North America. We lost the Ford Fiesta, Honda Fit, and Toyota Yaris. Only to be introduced the Ford EcoSport (now discontinued), the Honda HRV and the Toyota C-HR (also out of production).
An education AND entertainment at the same time. Thank you for putting out quality and non click bait videos.
Unbelievable how car companies have such short-term memory. Prior to the great recession, they were offering large and very expensive SUVs and trucks When the economy hit the skids, they were all stuck with huge inventories that they could not sell and GM and Chrysler went bankrupt. They could not service the lower end of the market. Déjà vu all over again with a good chance of this repeating as the legacy brands don’t have anything cheap to offer.
Car manufacturers are just doing what makes them the most profits and what the government fuel economy regulations incentivize them to do, which is the same, then and now.
@@nathanexplosion5478 They're doing what makes them most profit next quarter. Not 10 years from now.
Roman, please consider releasing your long-form content as a book series!
I love listening to these stories and sometimes I'd like to read them at my own pace and research alongside of them. If you released them as e-books, I'd gladly buy them for my collection and to support your work!
In my opinion, it's the government's fault for not just killing the Sedan, but making the average size of America's vehicles a whole lot bigger. Stupid policies such as EPA regulations during the oil crisis is exactly why we would need smaller government, but I digress. As a high school debater, I have written a bill that actually helps the environement, by basically flipping the weight of the regulations of smaller cars for larger ones. This can and will decrease the number of gas-guzzling, child-killing tanks we have on our driveways. I strongly advocate for smaller vehicles, like sedans, and seeing all the stigma behind the thought that "well if I don't have the bigger car, I'm going to be the one crushed in a car crash", again makes me lose faith in our country.
Physics makes you lose faith in your country? The bigger/heavier vehicle exerts more energy to the smaller/lighter vehicle during a crash. A vehicle with larger crumple zones and larger airbags is safer than a smaller one. You might not care about your own safety, but I do, and wouldn't put anyone or anything I care about in a vehicle smaller than a midsized CUV.
@@Noah_EIf we're talking policy, we make everyone safer if we change incentives so that the vast majority drive sedan-weight vehicles. It's not just an absolute function of weight, but rather the delta between the vehicles involved in the collision. If nearly all the vehicles are lower-weight, everyone wins.
My daily is a 2023 manual Jetta. Feels like I have a unicorn being that it's the least sold in 2 categories lol
I once read that people are divided into the Aristotelian and the Platonic. Roman and Mr. RCR really fits in this dichotomy.
I feel like the last decade has been a perfect storm of conditions to kill sedans. Companies are like amoebas that care only about growth and margin, and if something has a low enough margin it will be deprioritized, and as automakers look at spreadsheets and see these lower margin sedans theyll clip them from the market in order to keep theyre numbers up. This has the knock on effect of pushing out bigger, more expensive crossovers which can now only be afforded by an older consumer who tend to care more about things like, upright seat heights and a mushy ride. All of this dovetailing into EPA regulations that allow automakers to get away with looser emission standards (lower costs) for these larger vehicles. Its kinda created a nightmare tailspin in the industry where vehicles that would inspire someone to become an enthusiast wont get built, and its sad to see happen.
This is what happens when MBA's and the bean counters run the show.
Right on, it’s accelerated in recent years but it’s been happening since the 1990’s.
Its called late stage capitalism. Welcome to the beginning of a Cyberpunk future. The next step will be either civil unrest, mass poverty or global war, and all of those will happen at some point.
The market for basically everything has been cooked since corporations and companies realized that they can just charge literally whatever they want for their products and services, and people will buy them
I think part of the reason is simply that the value proposition of a sedan is no longer as appealing as it once was, due to the advancement of the industry as a whole.
These days, the actual physical metal of the car is a much smaller % of the total cost of making a vehicle than it used to be. Electronics, sensors, safety equipment, and the engineering to fit all this into a package that meets emissions is a huge portion of the cost of a new car, and that's something that doesn't really scale down to smaller cars. The manufacturing cost gap between sedans and SUV/CUVs is only going to continue to shrink, and with it one of the main reasons someone might want to buy a sedan-sized car. For most Americans who live in cities designed around big fat trucks, a modern SUV often gives more of what people want for the difference in price.
Genuinely had such a good time watching this premiere with the live chat. Wasted a fking hour at my desk without realizing it. Spot on analysis Roman you have a great week too buddy
I love my 4th gen Camry, there's a certain charm about it to me, since owning it I see them everywhere.
Old econo boxes feel so zippy compared to the roided up SIV’s everyone now has.
Vehicles are so expensive now you need something that can seemingly do everything which sadly seems to be what the crossover is to most people. This is also why you cant get a 2 door pickup anymore because everything now needs to potentially be a family vehicle.
Wild seeing the parraells with the car and bike market. Gravel bikes are dominating mountain bike and roadbike sales. Seems like "mediocre at everything, good at nothing" products are all the rage right now. Consumers are trying to squeeze as much value per dollar as they can.
The automakers' propaganda that gave the suburban mom the perception that a taller, bigger car = safer inherently is a major part of this. My mom wanted a Honda Pilot, my brother's fiance basically forced him into a Nissan Rogue over an equivalently priced Accord/Camry. I personally cannot stand SUV's vs sedans. My sister's CRV with the EXACT SAME DRIVETRAIN as my Accord gets 10-15 mpg less than my Accord and drives (in my opinion) clearly worse. It doesn't have better cargo space (although the hatch vs trunk could be argued to be superior, I disagree, but...). I personally do not even see myself buying an SUV because I never carry 3+ passengers, never go offroad, don't prefer the driving position and I have a truck for truck stuff (mainly home improvement supplies). I don't see the appeal of two row SUVs... they're just objectively worse sedans. If you need 1 vehicle for a do-it-all thing, get a minivan.
I never realized just how many pickup trucks there are until I bought one. Now I'm like holy crap.
We should regulate cars based on price point, instead of a blanket set of regulations. It would disincentivise manufacturers from continuing to raise prices across the board, while simutaneously holding those who can afford to meet extremely strict regulations to actually meet them. Like a mitsubishi mirage should be able to meet the same standards that were expected from all cars in ~2011. Still have airbags, still have cats, but no CAFE standards or required active safety standards.
Or that will lead to cars no longer being built because they can’t profit off them anymore and we all end up worse off
@@JollyGiant19 Then just build cars that are more expensive and safer, with better emissions. Just like we're doing right now
Just for a bit of context, the cumulative inflation rate in the US over the past 5 years (2019-2024) has increased by 22%, so the increased cost in cars (other than Stellantis, of course) isn't actually all that dramatic.
But anywho, this is actually the first Roman Report I've watched, and I love the attention to detail and research.
As with most things in life, the answer to "Who Killed the Sedan" is a little bit of everyone.
1) Consumers are very concerned about safety, and as someone who dailys a 1st Gen Neon every day, I can see how being surrounded in walls of trucks and SUVs would be scary. So in response, everyone is buying a bigger car to feel safer, prompting other people to buy bigger cars, etc etc.
2) In a world run by capitalism, manufacturers are going to make what increases their bottom line the most. And nothing is a better example of that than the Wrangler and Bronco, but the same can be said about larger vehicles in general. Because of the looser regulations on larger vehicles, they don't cost as much to develop AND people think they're getting more bang for their buck because a larger vehicle is presumably worth more money in their eyes, so they have no intensive to pour the money into cars that cost more to make and people are afraid to get in.
3) Government regulations need to be restructured to incentivize purchasing smaller vehicles, period. This can be easily be done by
a) Removing separate classifications for CAFE standards and creating a tax for vehicles PURELY on its footprint and MPG. This will allow smaller cars to be more lenient with their average MPG, resulting in cheaper production costs and ultimately higher margins. This will also make larger, less efficient vehicles more expensive, meaning that you'll only purchase one if you actually NEED it, which will result in less douchebags driving trucks on the road that are afraid to scratch their beds.
b) Changing safety standards for cars to prioritize the safety of both the people inside AND outside the vehicle. People are genuinely afraid to drive smaller cars because they don't wanna die when they get nailed by an SUV or truck, and you can't even blame them. Limiting the height and slope of the front of a vehicle has proven to greatly reduce the amount of permanent damage and deaths, but there's no regulations to enforce this. Hell, the designer of the latest Silverado literally said he wanted it to look like a fist flying down the road, and we're wondering why pedestrian deaths have risen significantly.
So yeah, I agree that it's definitely more the automakers fault that sedans are on their way out, but without government regulations changing to incentivize the production of smaller cars AND people's perception of about the safety of driving sedans changing, I don't see the making a solid comeback anytime soon.
Hatchbacks are more versatile than sedans. Then they started inflating hatchbacks into cross overs.
We need an analog economy vehicle, without electric braking/steering/emergency brake, digital clusters, chip's for everything like brake lights and so forth.
The automaker is the most logical conclusion, because you see this pattern outside of North America too. Here in Europe the same shit is happening.
The light truck exemption is the worst thing to happen to transportation since car manufacturers destroyed trolley lines
I think a big signifier was in 1996 when GM axed the Caprice/Roadmaster (Caprice used to sell a million units a year, one model line!) and retooled the plant in Texas to build Tahoe/Yukons.
I remember when I learned that the Honda Fit is being discontinued in the USA, to be replaced by the HR-V "subcompact crossover SUV." Have people gone insane?
Why yes, I have.
I've been complaining about this situation for a while now. I'm so sick of crossovers. They have their place, and in a lot of cases they are nice enough, but when that is almost everything you see, it feels dystopian.
I'm not 40 yet, and I feel like an old man yearning for the good ole days with roadster, sedans, and actual small trucks... okay I need to go cool off now.
The reason for the enshittification of the Altima and other sedans is due to CAFE, and its disproportionate effect on smaller vehicles. The automakers have to cheap out on everything to keep the cars even remotely financially viable, and they still lose money.
2015 Camrys are about to skyrocket in value.
I’d argue more that 1990’s and early 2000’s Japanese vehicles will be most sought after. Peak combination of reliability with modern features/functionality that are still serviceable by do-it-yourselfers and average local mechanics. Find well cared for examples and scoff them up.
I've been looking for a used Camry for a few weeks now, hoping not to pay more than 4k for a 2002 to 2009 model, and everytime a good deal shows up on marketplace, it gets snatched the day it's posted. I have no idea how I'm supposed to find and buy a car immediately when I basically work two jobs. I've looked at a few Toyota dealerships for used cars, but the price point starts at around 18k for a used car from 2017, and I kinda dread the idea of having to deal with a car salesman...I've never owned a car before, so this would be my first.
I've found luxury models in that era are generally the same price or cheaper and overall better maintained. Take a look at Lexus and Acura while searching. Lots of ES, GS, and TLs are in that price range.
@@Bobbeyjazz everyone wants a used Camry or Accord, anyone pricing a Camry at 4k or below has a shit box. They're overpriced for what they are, there's other cars from that era that are lesser known gems
Consumers ain't buying 4 door sedans because they were the family car. We don't have families anymore.
This makes no sense. Suvs just replaced them the "family car" spot
Funny how the Japanese, South Koreans, and Germans can make a profit selling sedans, but GM and Ford can’t.
There is a reason why the chicken tax still exists despite it making no sense for the free market or spirit of competition. There is a reason why both major political parties are threatening tariffs on chinese EVs despite the fact that they meet all emission and safety regulations.
American companies don’t want to compete. They don’t want to get better or offer a product at more reasonable price point. And because of this there products suck. Leading to Japan and Germany to fill in the gaps on markets they don’t want to compete for. Ford is happy to have Truck monopoly and GM is happy with their plans to go all in on EVs.
For us the consumers this is bad. As competition lead to better products and more competitive prices that favor the buyer’s interests.
What we fail to talk about is the automaker's influence in changing the CAFE regulations. They petitioned the EPA to include SUV's in Light Trucks instead of Passenger Cars. They wanted to kill off the sedan in favor of higher margin vehicles and the CAFE regulations gave them the perfect excuse.