Proven Guilty [SPOILER] Review | The Dresden Files By Jim Butcher
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The fact that Michael knew Harry had a freaking devil in his head, but still trusted the Wizard to look after his children is one of the best displays of friendship in the series.
Absolutely true
Michael Carpenter, despite being a fictional character, makes me want to be a better person.
I love how Harry is such a good guy "Of course I will tie my fate and life to your rebellious daughter's ability to follow the simple rule of not abusing her powers that every rebellious girl of her age would love to have. She is your daughter, it is the minimum that I can do".
Man, find yourself a friend like Harry Dresden and you will find a treasure.
Yes, but if you can be a friend like Michael Carpenter you are more likely to get friends like that, because you will deserve it.
We need a Dresden Files adaptation that's just Mouse as the protagonist with his 2 bumbling sidekicks, Harry and Molly.
There's a couple of short storiest told from Mouse's perspective. They are both fairly recent, though, and I can't really go into what they are about without getting into spoilers Merphy hasn't reached yet.
If you're up to date with the series (because spoilers...) find and read the short story Zoo Day.
When you called her boyfriend Narwhal. Lmao.
At least she didn't say "Nardo Polo, the greatest marble player who ever lived."
Harry & Michaels's conversation at the end of the book remains one of my favorite scenes in the entire series, not least of all because Michael once again refutes something Harry himself often gets wrong: good does not equal stupid. Michael knows better than almost anyone just how deadly the coins are, and is no doubt very aware of how terrifying Harry would be if he ever gave in, and yet.. he still trusts Harry to look after his family, and leaves him the space to come forward on his own. I'm also 100% convinced he's known Charity was a practitioner since the day 1, that she gave it up, and what it's cost her. It simply doesn't matter to him, and if it brings her peace to keep it secret, he's willing to let it go.
The other thing that I love about that ending is Harry finally admitting to the emotional toll his job is taking on him, which is not something Harry ever admits to himself in his narration. But he practically blurts it out to his friend with only the slightest prodding. It's been steadily building in the background, and in that one moment it became obvious how much weight he's been carrying for years. Michael is one of the few people who understands it, and we can look back and see how much he's been trying to help Harry since his very first scene in Grave Peril (when he's trying to get Harry to admit he loves Susan, and build a life together with her).
There is a conversation between them in a later book (unnamed for now because.... spoilers). Where he goes to Michael for help. I will go and reread that one conversation sometimes. Michael is the BEST.
Regarding the ending with Molly/Dresden; Harry's emphasis on what Molly could be doing to be more alluring in that moment is perfect framing for Their relationship up to this point. It is directly showing the gap between what Molly wants to be vs what she really is, and of Harry taking note of exactly what he'd be taking advantage of if he allowed or encouraged that behavior. Of course, that doesn't mean that all readers need to be comfortable with it (either as a plot item or writing decision).The bottom line is that Molly is more vulnerable that she realizes, and like the rest of the book, this scene is establishing that fact again. It is also establishing (again) Harry's own potential darkness as he analyzes that vulnerability which he could exploit... But then it is also showing Harry's goodness when he decides to make the right decision.
Harry's decisions and thoughts are often colored by that darkness before he makes a choice. It's my belief that readers SHOULD feel discomfort on occasion with Harry in those moments. After all, we know Harry has some darkness in him, and we know he often makes some bad choices. These moments are meant to keep that conflict alive and leave the reader wondering when Harry may not make the decision he should, and to illustrate what Harry maybe capable of if he ever gave in to those thoughts/behaviors.
I agree with this analysis, and it's actually a trope I really really love when I come across it in books - the exploration of goodness being in the choices we make rather than our internal feelings and battles
Well said.
Agreed, it's reaffirming that doing the right thing should never be considered simple or without consequence. Also, it serves as a reminder that Harry is a person dealing with his own internal struggles but has chosen to do the things he thinks are right. The real and most important lesson he'll ever teach Molly.
Molly's actions created a sort of alignment with the same type of fear energy that the phobophages work with so she could be used as a sort of beacon that they could be pointed towards.
The thing is he didn’t even suspect Molly until it was too late. If he had he would have never laid the trap for the summoner.
Oh for sure, he didn't realize what was happening, so his reflection trap that would send them back to the source of their summoning hit her since as a beacon she was functionally being used as the source by proxy. If he actually suspected her, he wouldn't have sent that kind of trouble her way intentionally.
I think even a great man would feel insecure after seeing how a beast of a dad Michael Carpenter is.
He was ready to go to war on the spot without an ounce of malice in him, the right hand of justice and love ready to strike if the White Council even dared touch his kid.
Michael Carpenter is a superhero! Full stop.
Never worry about long reviews. Dresden inspires that in almost everyone. After rereads, with friends who have also reread... entire evenings can be spent connecting threads through every book and making leaps and predictions.
And then going back and listening to Marsters, and getting lost in Spike's intonation being different from your inner monologue as you read, and highlighting even more different nuances.
Despite the male gaze issue that many people have, Butcher has managed to become one of the best authors of the 21st century (it is a hill I will die on). While I won't mention which books, as you have yet to get to them, he writes in a way that has brought me (a GenXer raised to be stoic) to tears and then suddenly laughing to the point where I had to put the book down for five minutes to catch my breath.
I wanna be one of your Dresden buddies - this sounds fantastic.
Joined the Wild Hunt:
I'm pretty sure that was a situational thing, where he joined for that particular hunt only. Like if it's in town again, he can make the same choice between run, hide or join, but he won't be joining in on all the hunts around the world.
I came here to say this. It wasn’t a permanent thing. He just got swept up for the evening, which caused him to do things he regretted.
Mouse is a Good Dog. Everybody knows this.
That line makes me smile so hard. 😀
The thing with Molly and Harry's efforts to 'come at the summoner' is that Harry was proceeding on a false premise. He assumed that the Fetches were being summoned because that's statistically the most likely source of them... but even Bob told him it wasn't the only way for them to get out of the Never Never and into the mortal world. It was also possible for them to be SENT if they could lock on to an appropriately resonant source of magic. They were using Molly as that anchor point because she had already begun using fear as a control mechanism to shape her friend's behavior, but their Sender was someone of great power in the Never Never.
And then we find out that the Fetches are vassals of Winter that serve the Queens as elite warriors and assassins, and that SOMEONE just leveled an assault on the CAPITAL of Winter... while throwing around HELLFIRE. The vibe we're kind of getting is that there's a shit ton of stuff that happened offscreen involving fae politics that caused one of the Queens of Winter to want their top agents moving around in the mortal world and that it somehow made sense for them to kidnap Molly and take her to Mab's strongest stronghold. There remains a lot that we don't know... but cues in later books DO give us more puzzle pieces that can help us reconstruct the unknown events in this narrative.
Another thing that makes Molly's (and other warlocks') trial complicated is that in the Dresden universe performing dark magic (like mind control) not only damages the other person's mind, but your own as well, making it physically harder to turn away from the dark path.
The trial is not only about "does she deserve to die for invading these people's minds" but also about preventing future evil that is now more likely to happen as a result.
Yes. Recall the 'kid' executed at the beginning had killed like 7 people already (or something like that).
"Die alone".....oh, sweet summer child. lol
Two points I'm throwing out there that I've thought a lot about in regards to Harry and to Molly:
First- I love Molly's character and the growth we get to see throughout. I love that she is always portrayed as the hero of her own story who is simply bumping up against Harry's story. To that end, I think its important to keep in mind that we were all children once. Should we be sexualizing children? Absolutely not! But as you mature and change into an adult, the people in your life need to appreciate that you are changing. Which is why I love the way Molly and Charity interact. I have known so many young women who responded to becoming a young adult exactly the way Molly did and many of them did so (at least in part) because of the way their adult caregivers tried to keep them pigeon-holed in their previous roles as child.
This is one of the reasons I think Butcher nailed the characters and their relationships.
Second- I've thought about Butcher's descriptions of women a whole bunch because I was a teenager reading fantasy and sci-fi in the 80's (not to mention the way women were portrayed on tv/in the movies) and honestly, the first two books I kind of just thought of as old-fashioned. The same old boys club b.s. I'd had to get through to read anything published back then. But then I started really paying attention to the controversy and did it really bother me and why it really bothered me...
I came out the other side with a new appreciation of how much Butcher is putting this whole world through Harry's eyes. As an author, creating a narrative is a narrowing of perspective right off the bat and that narrowing allows readers to see the world through the character, not the author's or their own eyes.
Harry looks at ALL the people in his world intensely. It's part of his measuring them up. He tries not to judge them by just their appearance but he uses what he can see (especially on first contact) as one of his tools. Like when he's eyeing a crime scene- he lets himself notice everything!
But then Butcher uses Harry's own internal monologue to explore how Harry feels about what he's seeing.
And we are told again and again that from the very beginning of Harry's entrance into the magical world he's been told he's evil. He needs to constantly explore the choices that he makes to reassure himself that he's right and the council is wrong. He IS a good guy because of how he ACTS and what he SAYS.
One of the things that helped me see how Harry was looking at people (not just the descriptions he was making) is when I realized that I don't think I've read a description in which Harry described one of the women as ugly. Harry sees them as scary, powerful, mean but his descriptions always seem to point out ways in which their inner beauty shines. Murphy is beautiful but in a completely different way then Charity or Susan or his godmother. And he frequently describes the men in the same way.
I'm thinking this world is less Butcher creating a world of only beautiful people like a CW show and rather that Harry's way of seeing people is just a very complex way of looking.
But that's just my take.🙂
These videos have quickly become my most anticipated of every month! While I think Dead Beat is just slightly better, Proven Guilty was the book that made me realize Dresden was going to become an all time favorite series. So many great character moments, and the ending is perfection!
Same, Proven Guilty made me realise how connected the series was going to be.
It's funny how Proven Guilty has become the launch point of many of my rereads/relistens. I think it's just because the series feels incomplete without Molly, so I always find myself going back to Proven Guilty.
Proven Guilty is great. I love the trial scene so much. It also far deeper than we're lead to believe initially because it ties with larger themes of the series so beautifully, but that you don't fully think about on your first because you're thinking about the plot and enjoying the action.
One of the aspects I like the most is that there's a lot more going on in background on a "cosmic" level, while the main plot is deeply personal and up close. Just a story about a mother and daughter butting heads, despite loving each other very deeply.
Also, I thoroughly agree with your opinion about Molly's last scene with Harry. He should've focused more on Molly's insecurity and vulnerability, while just glossing over her beauty, in order to emphasize the point of that scene.
If I'm not mistaken, Molly's age was supposed to be higher than it was in Proven Guilty, she's supposed to be one year older. This was is a continuity error rectified by White Night. I happened because Butcher had to swap the order of Dead Beat and Proven Guilty (Originally it was Proven Guilty->Dead Beat), because book 7 was his first hard cover and the editors wanted a more action-packed book to serve as a new entry point in the series (hence why Butters asks so many basic world-building questions during that book).
I love that Butcher kind of flipped the typical Dresden structure. I like that the big battle, the finale we have all come to expect and love from these books, happens at the end of act two and act three is this really intense wizard courtroom drama. Arctis (spelling?) Tor would have been a solid finale in of itself, but the fact that it happens so early on was quite refreshing. And even that moment was flipped on its head because when they got there, the big battle was pretty much over.
And yes, everything that happens there, especially with Slate and Lea makes more sense in later books. Butcher really does a great job of setting things up that come in to play in later books, but he also does them in a way that he reminds you in story of why this is important, so when you get to those moments you won't be like: oh I have to go back and read Proven Guilty to understand this. I'm excited for you to get to the books where Butcher begins to show you what this is all leading to and he does it in such a cool way.
I have to think this book and Grave Peril (mainly the vampire party) are the two books with the most things going on in the background that become important later. Other books have some things too. But I always felt like these two have the most. But that's a hard call, all of it is so interconnected.
I love these long spoiler filled reviews of these books. Please keep the coming.
You’ve got some fantastic books coming in the series.
It's a small thing, but something that I look forward to every time I read PG.... Harry's and Rawlin's Splattercon!!! (the exclamation points are required) badges. Harry's read "An Innocent Bystander" and Rawlin's read "An Authority Figure". Don't know why I'm so eager to get to that part, but I am.
Also, love the fact that you can tell when Butcher is using movie monsters from 'his' universe vs ones from ours. He never goes out and says that the Xenomorph is the creature he fights when the con is invaded the second time, but it's obvious from the description that it is....
Someone pointed out that Michael storming in at the last second with that particular entourage indicated that he was On The Clock, and - consequently - that that was about as close as you'd ever get to having God Himself look you dead in the face and say "dude. what the _fuck_ ."
Which I love.
I've read the series a few times now, and I was definitely troubled by many of the things you mentioned on my first time through - and nothing changes with more info, but I've come to consider that Harry is acting on a couple of levels in the ice-water-dousing-scene. Harry *IS* Molly's mentor now, and he's been trying to get her to understand that she's been making herself visible to an incredibly risky world, without grasping what anything *means* . In this scene not only is he trying to make her realize that this isn't a game - I'm beginning to think he draws the situation out for a couple of reasons. 1, he's giving her the time to recognize it's not working and pull *herself* out of it, and by NOT backing out, he's 2, pointing out to her how easy it is for her to get in over her head. Because despite everything that's happened in this book, Molly is still behaving like an 'I'm going to live forever' teenager, and Harry is trying to make her SEE that she MUST treat her magic with far more respect.
Finally, there has to be an admission from fans (me included) that Harry *ISN'T* a 'white hat'. He's deeply flawed, and what we've seen of the reactions to people when there's a soul gaze - something within Harry is super scary. Then you add in the fact that he *does* have a fallen angel - the temptress herself - in his head, seemingly quite comfortable with the aspects of himself he keeps on lockdown.
When I finally realized that the reason I *LIKE* Harry is that he has these thoughts and actively refuses to act on them, I found him a much easier character to understand.
I mentioned in the comments of the reading vlog that Molly is my favorite character in the series. To the point where I'm not even sure who my favorite was before she was a major player. Probably Harry? But this is absolutely Charity's book. Charity has probably the best character moments in this book.
I absolutely understand why Harry's descriptions of women can be a problem. They don't really bother me as much as many--and that is probably entirely because I was a teenage boy when I started reading these books. I'm much older now, and I can see them for what they are...but I guess the memory remains. I will note that it is very much a Harry thing more than a Butcher thing. Other POV characters (in the short stories) don't take it anywhere to the same extent. And it isn't really a thing in his other series, the Codex Alera. Speaking of, any interest in picking up that series? I'm a big fan of it as well, maybe even more than the Dresden Files (although I go back and forth on that). And at 6 books it is less of a commitment than the Dresden Files.
Not a direct reference to this book, but I found a song called Polka Never Dies by The Dreadnoughts and it’s great for a Dresden playlist 🤘🏼🪗☠️
Both Charity and Molly are freaking Amazing in this book. They are absolutely the stars of it.
Charity going Mama Bear in the best of ways, yet clearly still not happy about what her child is doing. Molly being... So teenager.
Going off memory, I think there's a bit early on where Harry runs through all the ways that the phages could be crossing over. One way is for them to be sent by someone in the never-never, but Harry immediately dismisses that as there'd need to be a crazy amount of compatible energy on the other side for them to latch onto (i.e. Molly)
The Gatekeeper was the MVP and I love him to this day because of this book. Still has one of my favorite lines: Langtree "Enough, Gatekeeper, this farce has gone on long enough!" Gatekeeper, "On that, Honored Merlin... we agree." Broke the circle, walked to the door, unchained it and let Michael, the council members and the saved kids in. Fan-freaking-tastic scene!
The knight that wields the sword of love is loving?! Shocked absolutely shocked!
Mouse is everything! Just wait for a particular running scene
When you have a chance, you would love the short stories. Each is notated where it falls chronologically, so that you don't get ahead of the timeline, and the Bigfoot trilogy is fantastic... possibly a glimpse into the graphic novels,
Here I am, doing my seasonal series re-read. (I do re-reads in winter because I have SAD and my brain doesn't always want to absorb new information). It's Dresden again this year and I'm already back on Death Masks and halfway through. It thrills me to watch you giggle over these. 😁 Also, good morning.
Edit (Maybe more as the video goes on lol): Molly didn't summon them. She drew them to her because of the black magic she used and the fact that she used FEAR as the lever to keep her friends from doing drugs. It is actually my personal understanding that no one actually sent them. Molly did it to herself by doing what she did where she did. That being said, I think Elder Fetch may have been sanctioned by Mab to take Molly during this simply as an opportunity. If you remember, Harry's Godmother already asked Michael for Molly once before.
Thomas joined the Hunt once. He is not part of it forever. Joining the Hunt or hiding when it rides are simply the only ways to survive it. Thomas couldn't hide because of what he is. Because he did that, because he 'fell off the wagon' so to speak, he feels like he failed and has given in to feeding again. His willpower has slipped. White Night explains more. 🤫
Okay, Molly. I actually have only one issue with a scene for Butcher portraying Molly and you haven't gotten to it yet. You'll know it when you get to it. It involves a beer and I think it was skeezy and I didn't like it and I DO blame Butcher for that one even though it's totally in character for Molly. Beyond that... I know why people have issues with Butcher's writing where it involves women. That being said, I really don't most of the time. Everything we read is in Harry's head and, while it can be repetitive (that I do get) it is in his head. He is not projecting that to anyone but the reader. It's all done in Harry's voice. Shifting the 'blame' to Butcher I think happens when people don't want to associate the thoughts with Harry himself. But that's not the case, those are Harry's thoughts and if it was written differently and more comfortable for us, it wouldn't be his voice. The books are also written by a dude who was born in the 70s and grew up in the 80s surrounded by beer ads, Snap-On posters and hair bands. I consider the source. 🤣🤣🤣
What I've noticed from people giving their opinions on the Dresden Files is that the ones who believe that the series is sexist don't understand or know what a straight man's inner monologue sounds like. This is understandable because it's usually women who say that the series is sexist and they would have no idea what the inside of a straight man's head sounds like. As a straight man myself, Harry's inner monologue is spot-on and accurate to how we think. We notice the physical details of every woman we come across. We don't even do it on purpose. It's like an automatic program that just happens. Girls develop at different ages and unfortunately, this automatic program that happens in our minds does not have an age gage. If an underage girl is developed our brain is still going to run the program. Now a man with good morals isn't going to act on these thoughts, which is why Harry didn't, but he is still going to have these thoughts. That doesn't make him a bad person and you can't judge someone by their inner monologue. Unfortunately when reading a book you have access to a character's inner monologue so it's hard not to judge them. It also can be sad when you realize that the majority of the men in your life have these kinds of thoughts but that is reality. Judge people by their actions, not their thoughts. Especially primal thoughts that we can't turn off 😆.
Well said
Yup. Actions speak louder than words, and words speak louder than thoughts.
I think we can all agree that we don't care that this spoiler reviews are on the longer side, it's really fun to hear a discussion of plot points instead of just getting their descriptions (Especially as someone that had read the books and is just happy to see people discovering the awesome works of Butcher)
The book ends with loose ends unanswered questions such as, who ran Harry off the road and who fixed little Chicago? I have been in the camp that Harry will time travel back to these events and will be the one to do these things, which is why Bob info dumps about the perils of time travel in a story that doesn't deal directly with time travel.
Love these long, Dresden discussions! So glad you're hooked on this crazy wild ride: it's a joy to relive this along with you.
I just finished Peace Talks on my end, and my oh my.....
I just love what Jim Butcher did with the characters all throughout this series ! Some insane development and changes to come haha
I'm glad you're enjoying the ride, Dresden Files always feels cosy to me for some reason despite the brutal stuff that often happens. When Dresden is hurt emotionally, I'm hurt with him.
Also, yes, this is the most "problematic" book when it comes to what bothered you. It fits the world and characters, but was unnecessary honestly. A bit to shock-value-ish for my taste.
No, Blood Rites is definitely the most problematic. Yes, this book has some descriptions that go further than necessary, but it’s nowhere near what is seen in book 6.
Regarding Molly, Something that became apparent upon rereads is how much Lash is trying to tempt him and mess with his head in ways subtle enough to not be apparent to the Reader. Because of how his prior desires for women affects the narrative, it appears on the surface as "just" pretty skeevy, but it's more apparently on reread as her influencer.
I've listened to the audiobooks twice and this is one of my favorite series. Not my favorite book but it's still good. James Marsters is so good as Harry. I really hope he continues until the end
I think Butcher's style trends toward his characters getting caught up the visceral emotions and then switches to the rarional and moral
The transition aren't always obvious, but I think the overly long description is how long it took Harry to rearrange his mental house.
The dude is very lonely and immediate and unexpected visual stimulus is going to set him off track
So the thing about the summoner is one of the big mysteries of this book (there are several - seriously, if you ever hit up the fan theory community, I guarantee you that something like 80% of the crackpot ideas are trying to explain something that happens in this book that's weirdly jarring). I'll limit my interpretation to information presented in this book, but I do have firmer conclusions based on events later. (So yes, this might be one of those 80% of crackpot fan theories, I'm fully aware of the irony of saying that and then presenting a fan theory of my own)
According to this book, there's basically 3 ways a Nevernever entity like the phobophages can get across into the real world: they're being summoned, they're being sent, or they're just capable of doing it themselves. Summoning is typically the easiest method of crossing over, but it requires an accomplice on this side to do. Being sent requires some powerful entity to be plotting things directly. And just crossing over solo pretty much requires one to *be* that powerful entity. Harry applies Occam's Razor and assumes that there's a summoner.
My read on the whole "Molly as anchor" thing is that because of Molly using fear based black magic, the fear aligned creatures could use her to get to her general vicinity without a summoner. And the reason they're not hitting Molly directly is because SplatterCon!!! is such an enticing meal for entities that literally eat fear that they get side tracked a bit. There's definitely indications that this isn't completely haphazard - the fact that the first attack targets the guy who owns the theatre with the fastest connection between the Earth and where these things are from, and the fact that there are some stationed to guard that locale rather than being off next door hunting certainly implies a bigger plan than just a group of phobophages who had a chance to leak through into the human world to play. But aside from the phobophages being specifically Winter Fae (which implies a certain loyalty structure that would be different if they were Summer Fae or some other subtype of Nevernever entities), we're not given much to go on as to who specifically might have been behind that bigger plan.
And that's all I can say for this book. I have an opinion as to who that is and what their intent was, but that is definitely drawing in stuff from quite a ways forward in the series
Love the rant about the end scene. Laying out how it's not a 100% problematic as an idea overall but it's impossible to deny that certain parts of the depiction are super problematic. For me personally it is Thriller Bark-esque in that it never gets this bad again (I'm 99% sure I'm not forgetting about any scenes I've blocked out)
SO happy to hear that it doesn't keep this up
@merphynapierreviews I did a Re-listen late last year and I can confirm it never gets that bad again.
Totally agree. The reason, for me, it sticks out as such a gross scene, is because Dresden-Narrator / Butcher are really good at being subtle. There are some stunning glorious, gentle and subtle handling of harder moments... And then THAT SCENE. I'm "current" now as of late 2022 and it doesn't ever get like that again.
Loving watching you go through these books, given they're such a recent read for me. I'm glad you're loving them (Cold Days was my favourite in the series so far so super excited for when you get there) 😊😊😊
You are inside the head of a very noble but flawed man. We sometimes see and think things innapropriate. The important thing is the action. And i feel like the lingering descriptions paint a very clear picture. It is uncomfortable but i also think thats kind of the point. Having read other butcher works this is 100 percent harry's perspective. 100 percent his flawed descision making.
I think one of the things that Butcher does so well in dealing with Harry and women in the series is he is quite realistic in how men think. Had Harry immediately thrown the robe back at Molly, (not being a woman here but logical), in her mind she might have thought "Oh, he's doing this because he has to due to societal norms and my dad." Instead he lets her do her show, let's her see he's thought about the offer, then refuses her and makes it clear it's not going to ever happen. Had he not, she may have tried again.
Butcher wasn’t trying to depict Molly as vulnerable and lacking confidence. He was trying to depict her as full of hubris and inexperience. The point is that power has a tendency to corrupt people; it corrupts their values, and it corrupts their judgment. I do agree that, on average, The Dresden Files would benefit from less explicit language in the description of sexual topics, but I disagree firmly with your suggestion of how to fix the dropped robe scene. Harry had to stay unemotional, coolly unperturbed, and calmly harsh in his rebuke of her; emotions fuel and misdirect things, even when magic isn’t involved. He needed her to know that he saw what she was offering and calmly rejected it; she needed to be made to feel like a child again. Did Butcher need to describe her nipples in the process? No. But aside from the explicitness of certain language, the scene was executed as it should have been.
Harry truly knows what it is like to be labled a warlock and to always live with that black mark hanging over you. We've seen him struggle with going down that darker path. And now he will become the guide to Molly as she navigates that same narrow path.
Oh my Merphy needed a thick blanket for this review...EVERYONE GET READY!!!
You have it right about who was summoning the monsters. If I recall correctly when Harry is explaining the possibilities to Murphy he mentions that something from the Never Never could be sending them over. He thought it was more likely a mortal was behind it, which is why he tried to uno reverse them. Since Molly was unwittingly being used as the anchor, imo it raises the odds it was a fae. But who exactly is one of many mysteries introduced in this book, some of which still haven't been revealed to this day.
Why would you say its not been revealed? That is a spoiler dude...
@@TheVaultDescendant I said there's multiple mysteries, and some have not been revealed yet. I worded it that way specifically to not spoil anything.
If you think Mouse is the goodest boy in this book just wait till you get to number eleven!
I think if you really examine the descriptions more, you'd see it's not just being horny and objectifying women. It is that in part, because in most books he isn't having sex, and he also doesn't masturbate (I think).
However, part of it is that this is a detective novel, and Dresden is a private investigator. He's naturally going to describe people in detail, and this applies to male characters like Thomas and Marcone as well. Like, when Dresden is describing Molly's tattoos, that doesn't sound very objectifying to me.
Lastly, Dresden doesn't just note their physical traits. He also says things like, "she had a kind smile," and he gives details like their profession and demeanor. "House-wife, nervous but determined, middle-class wealthy."
Oh and in another note, I so love that elevator scene between Harry and Murphy, where they actually talk about things and both admit their feelings, but are able to also both get that as much as they have these feelings, neither of them is in a good place in their lives right now to feel like they could make an actual relationship work right now since they both want different things out of a relationship. Able to have realistic relationship development and tension, while also having the character be mature adults who are willing to be open and honest with each other? More of this please!
The times in this book and future books when Harry does things that are like, "I'll look after her and I'll die before they hurt her" and similar types of stances, it always hits me in the dad feels and it gets a little dusty in the car or room I'm in.
I'm now joining the legions of fans waiting anxiously for you to reach "Changes".
Also, the ice water scene has two purposes, one of them being to show that Harry thought ahead, that he was a planner. The other... we'll discuss it later on.
Can the Harry/ Molly dinamic be both fantastic and terrible?
I'll just mention that the series is called Dresden Files, not Harry Dresden Files. And that Harry has a secret talent to find secret family members, as Thomas can attest.
How much I'm messing with you? You'll find out soon enough.
The conversation around Molly's age in this book has always struck me as a little weird. She's not 14 or something like that, she's 17, which is above the age of consent in a lot of the world, including in many US states, including Illinois where the story takes place. In Illinois it's illegal to have sex with a student of yours until they're 18, but I somehow doubt the state of Illinois recognizes the master wizard/apprentice dynamic as being legally a thing. To me it doesn't feel that weird for the book to sexualize her like that, at least not weirder than the books doing to it every woman he encounters, reasonable people can agree to disagree on how big of a problem that is in a general sense.
The bigger issue is the age difference between them, which for normal humans would be weird, but... they ARE wizards. According to the time line on Jim's website Harry is around 32 during Proven Guilty so he's basically 15 years older than Molly. Assuming nobody kills them they'll live to be hundreds of years old, is anyone going to think it's at all weird if they're dating when Harry is 150 and she's 135? I dunno man, I feel like some flexibility has to be extended for wizard relationship on that front. It would absolutely have been inappropriate for Harry to do anything with her in THIS novel specifically because, age aside, she's still a kid emotionally and in terms of world experience compared to Harry so I'm glad things went down this way. But thank you for attending my TED talk on why I ship Harry and Molly in a long term sense.
Also this book is definitely where I finally appreciated Charity. I didn't like her AT ALL before this book and honestly wondered what Michael saw in her, he's such a good dude it felt like he could do better. This one did great at finally showing her good side and now it's easy to understand why a man like Michael would love her. Michael's whole family is basically one of my favorite parts of the entire series, I love how the books show such a good example of a loving, stable, happy family. That's getting rarer these days as so many modern authors decide it's more edgy or just easier to shit on institutions like marriage and family, I love to have a popular series that shows a strong example of why those things exist and the good they can do in the world.
A thought about the descriptions of Molly and the final scene that you find distasteful and inexplicable as written by Butcher.
Maybe the main theme of Butcher's Dresden Files is that we have choices to make in life, and that we are defined by the most difficult of them. Not what we think, not the values we espouse, but what we actually choose to do when the easy thing to do would be the wrong thing and especially when is no good choice but yet a decision must be made. (Que Nolan's Bruce Wayne: "It's what I do that defines me.") So when Butcher spends the lines on HARRY describing just how attractive, how 'bombshell' that Molly is, how Molly isn't presenting herself sexually the way that HARRY would have appreciated more, and hinting at HARRY's male reaction to her, it's so that we the readers can more fully appreciate HARRY's thoughts and ultimately his choices in their context, as well as the implied principles and character that underlie those choices. Quick generic descriptions of Molly, and leaving out what HARRY is thinking and noticing, would allow the reader the skim over the choices HARRY is making, and the urges that HARRY is denying and that someone else might have followed. By wallowing in the details, I think Butcher wants readers to visualize fully the scenes and to consider what HARRY is choosing to do when other, more physically pleasurable choices are available to him that were being freely offered by Molly (who, IIRC, is also legally an adult).
Of course, I'm not Butcher so I could be totally wrong.
The main fetch was sending the others using molly as an anchorpoint. It was overreaching its power which will be explained later.
You are 100% correct. If nothing else, do yourself the favor of rereading the Arctis Tor scenes once you've caught up with the series.
As Luccio said, the purpose of the White Council is not justice. Its purpose is to restrain the power of Wizards. Also the reason Jim's sexual scenes falls flat with women is that the scene is being presented from a male perspective. His descriptions, thoughts, and so forth are all pretty consistent with how a man might look at the situation. It really is authentic first person writing.
You completely left out even a mention of Harry being sold on EBay!!! 🤣
Listening to you go over some of the more icky parts of the book (particularly those involving Molly) makes me think there might be a reason why Jim chose to have Harry spend so much time talking about Molly and her appearance. Harry indulging a lot in the "Male gaze" is a part of his character and him being an unreliable narrator. This is very evident in Jim's other works where characters are far less sexualized and less time is spent on describing people in detail.
Which brings me back to my point. Harry is a PI. He describes people in great detail, but he also kind of rides his skills as a PI as an excuse to more thoroughly describe women. In Molly's case, the descriptions go on too long. Long enough that they make any reasonable reader uncomfortable. Which is *exactly* what Harry is feeling when he sees Molly like this. That's the point. You're SUPPOSED to feel uncomfortable. It's supposed to feel icky. You aren't supposed to be happy with how the scene is playing out, because you're reading the book from Harry's perspective and *he's* not comfortable with what's going on even if there's a part of him that is taking a sick satisfaction in it.
Which really makes me appreciate the scenes more. The first time I read through tDF I wasn't a father. I am now, and honestly the whole dynamic has very much changed for me there and I better understand why Jim writes certain scenes the way he does.
I really enjoy these Dresden spoiler reviews, please keep them up for each book!
my impression was that she unconsciously summoned the fetches when trying to put the 'fear' into her friend to keep them clean... but because of the emotional twist in her about nelson and her friend affair, it got twisted... the 'chum in the water' comment led me to believe that that was what brought in the other fetches... and then the bad white court vamps were tied in because they followed the chaos.
I love Harry, but I was downright angry at him in that scene as I read it. I knew he wasn’t going to go through with it, but I felt like he was taking too long to react, definitely tempted.
Protagonists are often a vehicle for the reader to insert themselves into a story, and it just made me feel dirty. It was immediate relief when he dumped a cold bucket of water on her head and clearly intended to from the start.
But in all reality, I think the scene was intended to make the reader feel dirty and uncomfortable. It is consistent with the character arc that Jim Butcher has written for Harry.
The entire series is about Harry being tempted with power and resisting giving into his darker urges. Harry almost never does a knee-jerk reaction of "No" when genuinely tempted with power. He considers it, acknowledges it, and makes a deliberate decision to reject it. Harry knows Molly is young, too young. He knows that she is star-struck and vulnerable. She's willing, naked, and in his home with no witnesses. The temptation was real, but giving in would have been wrong, and no different than embracing dark magic and his darker urges.
On top of that, we learn later that Lasciel isn't called the temptress for no reason, she's working on Dresden without him realizing it. It is very likely that she would have wanted him to give in as well. Though there is nothing in the books say she was involved here.
If its any consolation, yes, the boundry pushing ends there. Molly respects that, but it's important to note that she's still carrying a torch for him.
I feel like the best parts of Harry and Charity happen as a direct consequence of Molly's apprenticeship, and I'm not going into detail because spoilers, but I'm PRETTY SURE you'll know them when you see them.
Watching you talk about these books gets me more and more excited for when you get to Changes
I like the long videos. As i said before in another, keep these detailed spoiler reviews coming. Its fun to see your excitement and to relive the books for the first time through you.
Bless!
Just wanted to say that I'm super thankful for the spoiler talks😊
This is one of my favourite Dresden books, it's so powerful
Things like the relationships in this book is one of the reason a fair few people find how Molly gets written in later books really uncomfortable.
I understand your perspective about how the scenes with descriptions of Molly are problematic, however, I always felt that those showed Harry's inner conflict with his dark side. He's not an angel, he does notice the physical attractiveness of the female characters in the books, and while there isn't much doubt that he's going to take the correct moral path he can't just turn off the part of his brain that sees the temptations. I mean, he's got Lasciel in his head messing with him, and he's quite aware that the reason that happened is that he saw Michael's son near the coin and picked up the coin instead of the kid. So you know Harry doubts himself, and that he knows that part of him wants power, and feels lust, and can make decisions for the wrong reasons. I felt like Butcher's descriptions and the way they reduced female characters to a set of anatomical features and dark possibilities represent Harry's awareness of his own baser instincts. They're not dressed up in more empathic language because that's not the part of the character they're representing. Just my two cents though. Can't wait for you to get to some of the books coming up soon, definite feelings of anticipation mounting.
Rawlins gets a perfect secondary character introduction.
The auction scene in the shop from Fool Moon is terrific.
The dynamic shift between Charity and Harry is huge.
I love that you are delving into the series with joy and abandon.
If I remember right, you tried to start Codex Alera. The first book is a little bit of a slog, but the later books make up for it, and isn't nearly as dense or meandering as WoT
thank you for the review
What a great and fun discussion. I am a few books ahead, but re-experiencing these books through your videos is great! thanks!
Now here's a thought I was having while you discussed the sexualized Molly scenes. To be clear, I find them uncomfortable as well. Still, I keep thinking that these thought processes (also in earlier books) may fit perfectly with a guy who never grew up around women or kids or learned through normative group behaviour. His only female friend growing up was also his girlfriend. So, I think this is uncomfortable, but also maybe realistic. And I think he is as uncomfortable as we are when it concerns Molly. At least that's how I read it.
Also, it does add to the story. it is kind of his Achilles heel throughout the series (White Court vampires, Lashiel, etc) and he overcomes his disposition here which gives more gravity to him making the morally right (to many of us obvious) choice. Otherwise it would just be a meaningless weird passing by scene with no impact.
Anyway. So uncomfortable, but in character and honestly I do not believe purely to sexualize for the reader. I can understand that some people really don't care for any of it though and it may be a step to far for them. I respect that as well!
Proven Guilty is one of my favorite Dresden Files books because it is so personal for Harry. He can't escape his past and he's becoming the monster from the White Council that made his life a living hell and then it comes full circle and he saves a young person the way McCoy saved him.
The Molly sexualization is super weird; however, I do think that scene at the end of the book was long because Butcher was trying to make sure the tension was there for the moment of "what is Harry going to do." I'm not sure it was necessary, but for me as a reader I was wondering if he was really going to do this and hoping that he wouldn't and then there was the relief of him setting a hard line. One of the reasons this series is so good is because Jim Butcher understands the relationship between anticipation and tension and the relief that follow the resolution. I agree that there was probably a different way to do it or that it might not have been needed in this situation but I do question if a shorter scene would have delivered the same Catharsis of "Harry did the right thing." Because if you don't question if he will do the right thing, then it can't deliver that relief.
I don't know if that helps you at all, but that's the way I view it as an aspiring writer trying to use anticipation to create tension.
Murphy! These next few books are gonna fly! I’m so excited for you to get to the rest of the series! It’s gonna be something!!!!
I LOVE THESE DISCUSSION VIDEOS!!! I started off reading these along with you and …yeah jumped ahead. Can’t wait for the next books video. Thanks for sharing Merph! (Get it Merphy and Murphy 😂)
This is part of my visceral reaction positively for Harry. Even when does the right thing he’s somehow wrong about it. You are absolutely free to judge Harry’s Internal Thoughts… the moment you allow other People to Judge Yours! Actions are what matters and what Action did Harry take? Yeah I thought so…
The end scene with Harry and Molly is written the way it is, IMHO, for 2 reasons, one is, as the reader in the moment, you don't know if Harry is going to give in to temptation, two, drawing out of the the scene of her undressing and him noticing her could come off creepy, if it had ended any other way. It's the set up part of the joke, the punchline being Harry dumping the ice water, which is a very Harry thing to do.
Thank you for reviewing these books. I appreciate you.
To ease your anxiety about Mollys future relationship with Harry it's as you hoped.
Love your Dresden reviews, always something I look forward to. For me personally, book 9 is a bit of a lull (it’s not bad just a bit plain) but books 10-11-12 are all really great, can’t wait to hear your thoughts on them!
You are very correct in that this book really, really matters if you do a reread of the series. It's actually quite pivotal to what comes all the way to at least book 14. So many seeds are sowed here.
Such a great review! I am re-experiencing the books through you after being 10 years older than when I first read them. It is so fun to remember the really cool parts and the great character work and interactions, but also hearing from you how you feel about the women and Dresden's male gaze, and the nuances of the writing is really interesting. Im glad you go so in depth and address so many things that happen.
I really appreciate your review. The Dresden Files are among my favorite books, so it is interesting to hear someone discuss them. I have not had the opportunity to really discuss them with others, and certainly not as in-depth as I would like.
It's important for Butcher to describe the women the way he does so you get an idea of how Harry thinks in those moments. When Molly was being described at the end of the book, she was being observed by Harry. That scene wasn't just about Molly. It was also about Harry and his darker nature being tempted and him overcoming that temptation.
Completely unrelated to what I was talking about above. Jim Butcher is amazing at foreshadowing. By far my favorite bit of foreshadowing that he has done in these books started in Dead Beat and continued in this book. I can't wait until it comes to fruition and I get to talk about it.
Thanks 4 reviewing this book. It got me to pick up another book.
I just finished Proven Guilty... loved the ending. It's one of my favorite books so far. I think Molly was handled well. Sure it's a bit of a grey area, yet feels believable and realistic.
Eh, never had a problem with that final scene, think people are a bit sensitive these days, no offense Merph....
Reason why Molly was acting like that has been set up and in later books Murphy explains it to Harry.
Also going forward, the mentor-students scenes in coming books are hilarious! You'll like it!
While I think you will enjoy the next book, the 3 that follow it are just total bangers. Just well-paced, tense, mythos-building, and devastating. I really look forward to hearing your thoughs on all of them. I have read Changes many times, and it beats me down every time.
White Knight is one of my least favorite in the series. After how big the stakes get over the course of the series, that one just felt like an early series story to me.
The longer the better for these reviews honestly, it’s genuinely so much fun to hear you discuss them.
You missed out discussing what’s happening with the Fae politics and the “black council” which it would be super fun to hear your thoughts and predictions on at an early stage ❤
I LOVE these reviews! I look forward to them!!😍 They are reminding me of how much I love these books and these characters. And they’re still my favorite depiction of belief. I want to go reread them all now.
I'm so glad you read the part with Lloyd Slate. It's absolutely incredible
One thing I wish you'd gotten into more is the hints towards the overarching plot, with the conversation about the Black Council at the end, the assault on Arctis Tor before Harry even got there, Little Chicago, etc. I think this book does a LOT of future setup and it would have been great to hear your theories.
Harry initially assumed the phobophages were being summoned to attack others explicitly. It's not til later on that he realizes instead that Molly's fear spell on her friends done poorly/imperfectly actually just opened the way for them to enter our world and used Molly as the anchor/beacon there to enter the world, since she was the one powering that fear spell on her friends.
If there is any book to reread in this series after catching up its this book because it is one of the most dense for plot lines later in the series.
I have loved these Dresden reviews that you've done, and agree with everything you're saying about these books so far! I'm so excited for you to be able to comment on the progression of these characters and all of the myriad relationships Harry is involved with. Friends, mentors, love interests and enemies; it's the relationships that are the real glue for this series. And it only gets better. AND CRAZIER! I'm jealous that you're on this journey for the first time.
Because of your reviews I went and did another reread of the series and I can confidently say that this is the worst it gets about that particular subject.
I love how you're already entertaining the likelihood of re reading the series in the future.
The Dresden Files is becoming such an ensemble cast kind of series that when they introduce characters, I just wait until the last chapter to see if they live before bothering to memorize their names. Molly's boyfriend? Even though he's the boyfriend and the book opens up with his case, still wasn't convinced he'd make the cut. 💀 also, this one is my favorite so far because i just love the trope of movie baddies come to life but damn that ending is the biggest deus ex machina i've seen.
Best book reviewer ❤❤❤
that's so nice 😭
That's not the only reason that the scenes between Molly and Dresden had to happen that way I can't say to much without major spoilers but it's going to get much harder for Harry to maintain that position in future books and it's kinda going to be a yardstick on how far down the path towards inhuman Harry has slipped also some people think that they may end up together post series also their is some foreshadowing their
The Carpenters are my Favs too! I look forward to the next book deep dive!
Haven’t read it in a while but I was a bit surprised you didn’t mention the scene where Harry bounced the phobophages back at the Carpenter house. That scene shook me pretty bad and was pretty damn impactful on Harry. It was a great demonstration of why the White Council’s idea that “a dark wizard did this, they are just getting what they deserve” is deeply flawed.
Harry’s whole car ride to the house wondering if he just caused the death of his best friends entire family is… harrowing.