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What's with all the deconstruction stories? With Sean McDowell
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- čas přidán 19. 09. 2020
- It seems like every time we turn around there is another high-profile Christian who announces they've lost their faith. Why does this seem to be happening now? Sean McDowell joins me to talk about his conversations with deconstructed Christians, the nature and pressure of being a public Christian, and what role that might play in all the deconstruction stories we are seeing.
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I grew up in a Christian home, deconstructed my faith at age 20, jumped wholeheartedly into active atheism - just eating up Dawkins, Hitchens, atheist youtube personalities, atheist podcasts, etc. I lived in active atheism for 10+ years. By His grace, God reached me in October of last year and I recognized my need for a Savior. Any doubt, any fear in speaking about Him, any hesitancy has evaporated. As I continue to learn and grow, apologetics have become important to me so I can talk with others, but they are absolutely not necessary for my own faith. I KNOW Jesus. I have the Holy Spirit in me, and nothing will separate me from the love of God through Christ. I think you're spot on in the fact that salvation comes when you cry out to God and recognize your NEED for Him. My mom prayed for me for a decade. Just want to offer some encouragement that even when people walk away fully, they are not beyond His reach and His grace. ❤️
Very encouraging to hear. God's grace is such a wonderful gift!
"Without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." - Hebrews 11:6
That's awesome! I wish some of my close friends would feel God's presence. My ex wife especially. There are so many "Christians" that I know that don't even KNOW Christ :(
How exactly did god reach you? I always hear this but no one seems to explain exactly how this god reached out to them. Funny that you say will come to you when you cry put? so he only comes to those who need him? because many people live good lives without it.
@@BenS-eu4es Hi Ben! Thanks for taking the time to ask. I want to answer you as thoroughly as I can. As I mentioned above, I was an ardent atheist for a decade. I've read many books, listened to many podcasts, and attended Pastacon in 2015, where I listened to a weekend full of speakers and met many "heavy hitters" in the online atheist community. I even drank Tequila with Matt Dillahunty. I say that to let you know, I'm not just saying I was some vaguely atheistic leaning person. I literally did a deep dive into atheism and fully deconstructed the Christian Faith with which I was raised. When God reached me, I wasn't actively looking for Him. My life was fine. Things were good. I had (and still have) a wonderful job that I truly loved and that pays well, a beautiful family, a stable living situation... Things were fine and I was not looking to challenge my atheism in any way. What happened when God reached me is probably not going to sound logical to you, and I want to say that in advance. My best friend's grandfather died and I went to the funeral to support her in her grieving. When I stepped into the church in which the funeral service was being held, I felt an overwhelming sense that I needed to pray for God to reach out to me. This made zero sense with my world view. No, I don't believe that there was anything special about the building, as I had been in churches for both weddings and funerals since I had renounced God and become an atheist and never felt anything like that. But, I had such a clear knowledge that I needed to do it, and, though it felt silly, I said, "OK, God. I don't even believe in you, so this prayer feels absolutely stupid, but here's the deal - I'm in a church, and this is it. If you're real, and if Christianity is true, you can use this priest or someone else to get me a message. Something clear. For the time that I am at this funeral, I will humble myself and listen, and I'll open my heart to whatever you've got for me. If nothing happens, I won't pray something like this again, but while I'm here, right now, I'll listen to whatever it is that's telling me to reach out." It was an INCREDIBLY arrogant prayer for me to make, and I didn't expect anything to come of it. I prayed silently and in the restroom away from anyone else. As soon as I came out of the restroom, my best friend's cousin (who I had not seen since high school and who had no way of knowing I had renounced my faith at all) made a legitimate B-line over to me and started chatting with me. We sat together during the funeral service and, after it ended, she put her hand on my arm, looked me dead in the eyes, and said, "This might be a weird question, but Sheila, do you know Jesus? It's ok if you don't, but please go home and look into it more, because He wants you to know He's real, He loves you, and He wants you. I just can't shake the feeling that I need to tell you this. The Holy Spirit is pushing me to tell you this before you leave." Now, again, if you don't know Jesus and don't know the Holy Spirit, I know that this probably sounds foolish, but here's the reality: I prayed a prayer no one could have possibly known I prayed, and it was answered almost immediately. The second she said that, I knew in the same way that I knew I needed to pray when I entered the church that that was the answer to that prayer. So then, I had a decision to make. Did I uphold my end of the bargain? Did I humbly accept the answer given or did I try to rationalize it and ignore it? I could easily have done so. I did not WANT Christianity to be true, because if was true, it would have serious implications on my own personal accountability and responsibility for how I move through life. But if it was true, it would also mean that there was a legitimate, real God who made me and who wanted relationship with me and for me to choose relationship with Him. God tells us in His word that those who earnestly and humbly seek Him will find Him. I felt a pull to seek Him and to humble myself and to be open to Him and I submitted myself to that pull for a very short period of time, and He reached me there. I told Him I'd be receptive if He reached out, and He did, and I chose to uphold my end of that promise. I repented for my sins - none of which were "huge" by human standards. Comparative to other humans, I'm generally a "good person", but that's not the standard by which we are held to account. Our actions are held up against God's goodness, God's righteousness, God's glory - and in that regard, every single one of us falls short. I gave my life and my heart to Him that day, and the ways in which He has shown up since have been incredible. There has been a fundamental shift in the way I move through this world. Following God isn't about "living a good life". Jesus isn't some self help book that exists to make my life here more fulfilled or more happy or easier. Jesus is a part of the living God, who seeks to know us and be known by us. If you diligently and honestly seek Him, He will, in fact, reveal Himself to you. And if that happens, He'll flip your world upside down in the best possible ways. You can continue to rationalize, minimize, or look for reasons to believe that He's not real, and many arguments will seem convincing, but none of them change the Truth of who He is. I hope you'll think it over. Peace and love to you, man.
@@truthanddelusion2008 Okay, first of all, think you wrote a lot unnecessarily details I didn't need to read about so I could only run through your response but even then I fail to see the significance in your story. What was this prayer your talking about, i didn't see you explain what it was but maybe I missed it. Please give me a shorter explanations thanks.
It's not encountering persecution done to Christians that opened my eyes. It was the persecution done by Christians, often in the name of Christ, always aimed at the most vulnerable. That is the truth about the church that opened my eyes. Judge a tree by the fruit that it bears.
This exactly, I couldn’t have said it better myself. I left the church when I was 14 based only off of how much disgusting cruelty and blatant hate so called followers of Jesus perpetrated. When atheists display more love compassion and acceptance than Christians it’s time to stop blaming false persecution against your faith and examine real persecution being done in the name of your faith
It’s very clear that persecution of others, especially to the vulnerable, is unbiblical. However, I do recognize there are MANY churches and communities that are hypocritical and spew out the same venom their own faith preaches against.
Unfortunately, it is the nature of man to pervert and abuse things for their own gain, but we have to look at the credibility of Christianity and the Bible as a whole, rather than personal anecdotes.
Imagine never working for a company again because there have been so many bad bosses. This doesn’t make management inherently bad, it’s just abused.
"Judge a tree by the fruit that it bears."
By your own words, you showed that not everyone who claims to be a believer is a true believer. That does not prove that Christianity is not true. Satan uses cruelty done in the name of God to turn people away from God. He is the father of lies.
@@tonyaprim3047 these are not my words.
I agree completely.
I’d like to suggest... a possible reason for all the deconstruction. We have shallow churches that don’t have any depth in practice, theology or history. Evangelicals have ignored the first 1500 years of church history and only seem interested in altar calls, church attendance numbers and popularity. Sacraments and beauty in liturgy are lacking. They have been replaced with a concert and a lecture, smoke machines and stage lights.
Not totally opposed to the new things but without a deep foundation it’s hard to grow life-sustaining roots.
I know that I grew up sooo immersed in the Bible since I was little; but my family skipped around from church to church (because my dad thought they were unbiblical, and so went to try somewhere else.) By the time I was an older teen, I was confused about even the basis of Christianity, cause even tho the churches Dad went to were somewhat a similiar kind, even among those...they preached enough different that as soon as my sensitive mind learned something from one. We would go somewhere else, and they'd teach something else. Eventually I grew to feel what were taught in churches were just preachers' opinions, and I grew tired of hearing them. I went to the Bible to try to figure out what it was saying for itself, but that confused me even more. Even tho I grew up reading it, sometimes for entire days at a time. I knew I needed God's Spirit to teach me. But pray as I might, nothing happened. And I felt I couldn't go on in a supernatural religion with just my own understanding. Every single thing about my life made it impossible. Least of all, churches and their millions of different interpretations. Eventually I went away from Christianity, cause I thought I found God another way. I needed to find Him some way or another, and I also needed to be able to live life. Cause up till then...trying to figure out Christianity almost paralyzed me. And some people thought I wasn't born again, n that's what I needed, which only made me a hundred times more desparate cause there was nothing I could do even if I wasn't. So yeah, I actually got a whole lot better after leaving Christianity. And maybe this is one of the reasons people have deconstruction 😥 I honestly know it probably is the only thing that kept me sane. Now, I really do think Jesus is the truth. And I want to come back to Him. But I find it very interesting I basically had to leave Christianity in order to know what it's like to be a normal person, with feelings.
You are onto something. I grew up Catholic, so I am one of many who have left the Catholic church (so it happens there, too). I think the Protestant churches are very strong when it comes to sermons, but you say they "only seem interested in altar calls, church attendance numbers and popularity", and that may very well be true.
@@alethiacharis2480 wow- this is incredible. Thank you for sharing your story!
I gotta tell you, there's a reason that kinda depth can't be tolerated in Christianity anymore. It's because everyone has the resources to fact check and to question and compare with other sources. The deeper you go, the more you realize Christianity is rotten and has done more harm than good for individuals and the world as a whole.
@@alethiacharis2480 Basically, yeah. And it's sad. The churches do not teach history or unbiased information that's actually helpful. I have a feeling they don't even understand the book itself. (It is a hard read.) They just go "one must be born of the water and the spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven, okay you get it? Okay good." And never explain anything. Lol it's useless impractical nonsense.. what does that even mean? And when you ask that you get thousands of different interpretations. Which is why so many denominations exist. Which is why you can't trust any of them. And then when you realize the Bible was translates by a bunch of people with a bunch of biases of their own you can't trust the Bible either. It's a shitshow all the way down to the core.
Deconstruction is natural. Young people inherit their parents' beliefs. You have to build your own faith.
Agreed. That’s what I’m doing now.
Yes, deconstruction is healthy and means growth!
This. ^^^
But if you realize faith can lead to any conclusion whatsoever, the scientific method remains as the bullshit detector
.
Just like kids shed fantasy holiday beliefs, people are more and more doing the same with religious beliefs. It’s tougher with religion because of the evil mental and emotional abuse of children being told they will burn in hell forever for not accepting the beliefs. This, to me, is the real problem that people are afraid to talk about. Telling a child (who trusts the older people in their life to be truthful) such a horrific thing is nothing short of abuse. It honestly should be illegal.
I just realized that a couple years ago when I dove deep into God’s Word, confused by all the prosperity gospel things I had always seen. And where I came out at.... was deconstructing. I had never viewed it that way. But that’s exactly what it was! And I completely agree, it was the revelation of my immense sin, as a false convert for a very long time... that made my face hit the dirt and begin repenting. And then God moved me in unexplainable ways after that. I was so so guilty. And that realization really hitting you hard, but then still to be told you’re forgiven. That was everything. I needed a savior. And I found Him, in the truth of His Word.
Yes! It's by His Holy Spirit and through the truth of His Word that we can be found, after being lost and away from God.
@@PneumaticTube Exactly 🙏🏽♥️
its a sad religion Christianity, to think so low of your person. "God moved me in unexplainable ways after that." I always find it weird when Christians use the term unexplainable, why can't you explain it? if it changed your life in a significant way than you must be able to explain how so.
@@BenS-eu4es Probably not intended so literally, but rather more of an expression of awe.
@@PneumaticTube I did think that, but I wanna know either way.
The "they were never in the faith" thing really rubs me the wrong way. I was the kid who was so aware of his failures and "sins" that he'd spend hours walking in the woods crying out to God for help and strength to overcome. I was very aware of my need for a savior. I felt my "wretchedness" so deeply every time I failed. I pursued prayer, reading the bible, worship, apologetics etc. I remember many times literally crying while I was praying - asking God to move in the lives of friends and family who didn't believe. To move in my life to make me more like him. If there was anyone desperate for God - I was that person. If there was anyone aware of how "flawed" he was - I was that person.
When I finally realized that the concept of "original sin" and being "evil at birth in God's eyes" was pretty screwed up and psychologically harmful is when I let Christianity go. My lifelong depression lifted. Ironically I'd prayed for years for God to lift me out of depression, and it took abandoning the notion of God for it to actually go away. Oddly enough, I haven't gone around murdering, stealing, and raping everyone in my path now that I don't believe in God. In fact, I literally have the same basic moral standard I had as a Christian (possibly a higher one since I take responsibility for my own actions now).
If you all want to say I was never really a Christian to begin with, that's your business. But I know myself and I was so convinced Christianity was real I was ready to go into the mission field. Ironically it was apologetics and study of Christianity and contradictions within scripture, as well as God's character in scripture, and a lack of seeing evidence in the real world for what I was reading, that led me to walk away. My faith wasn't just built on fuzzy feelings like this podcast seems to imply.
I'm sorry that you never got past the guilt into the grace. I know that feeling: understanding that the standard is perfection and that I in my flesh am far short of perfection. But the reality is that we are not meant to live forever in that guilt. It is a stepping stone to understanding grace. That is why Paul tells us that the law was our schoolmaster, to teach us sin so that we could want to be free of it. And through Jesus, we are. Consider the third chapter of Zechariah: In it, Joshua the high priest stands accused before God, wearing filthy clothes that represent his sin. But even though the accuser is there to condemn Him, God does not allow a single accusation. He merely rebukes the accuser, and then orders that Joshua be dressed in clean white linen, representing righteousness. He is given a clean, gleaming crown, representing honor that has replaced his shame.
I will pray that God leads you into that Grace.
Congrats on getting out of the Cult. I think people need to have a certain lack of curiosity to remain within fundamentalist religion. It doesn’t mean they’re bad people; it just means they’re born with a different mindset.
I had the same experience. I started turning the other way when I read Ravi Zacharias.
It's proof that these conversations are utterly pointless. We tell them about our lives and they choose to ignore it while saying they understand. They have no intention of doing anything otherwise and it's sad.
Unfortunately (or fortunately for me), faith requires sacrifice and surrender. Questions are necessary to ask.. but the answers to the sin you had are all written in promises to us via the word of God. We are supposed to be separated from sin... not perfect and therefore when we fall down, conviction should rise never condemnation. Whatever circumstances you were in God had already written that trusting in Jesus the saviour is enough. It seems to me that you wanted God but did not trust his promises enough to stop crying out and start listening with patience. Peace is ours, I’m sorry you never found that.
I can relate to much of what you write. But they can't hear us and I tend to give them a pass for their insensitivity and ignorance, even though their words can sometimes be hurtful, simply because they obviously can't understand what they haven't experienced. For myself, coming out the other side of having my foundation of Christian dogma ripped out from under me allowed me to see clearly how the God of love was holding me all through the process guiding me into the light on the outside of the religious prison I was unknowingly existing in. My fear and grief at what I thought I was losing was hindering me from knowing that the religious dogma I was trying so desperately to hold onto was, in reality, just shadows on the wall.
Any house build on sand should naturally be deconstructed. The sooner, the better. Some people will rebuild on rock, others will never rebuild. That's the way it is.
I love this
Much of this video comes across both as self congratulatory and degrading to people questioning Christianity. So, a good representation of what would drive the discussed trend.
Exactly!
An excellent example of the ARROGANCE of Christians. to say the one must not have ever been a believer in the first place is just pure Christian Narcissism.
As Chuck Colson said: God's purpose is not to make us happy, but to make us Holy. Good job!
That’s a “deepity” that means nothing. What the f#%k does that even mean & how does suffering & evil even have to do with making someone holy? Stupid sound bites do not make you profound
z x That’s a great question. The phrase Anthony shared helps remind us that life isn’t just about being happy, but God making us holy through sanctification (conforming us to the image of Christ). Sometimes as a Christian (especially in the US), it can feel like the point of our lives is to be as happy and pain free as possible. The pursuit of pleasure can often times cloud our relationship with God and others, causing selfishness and pride. It even leads many down a road where God is treated like a magic genie whose soul purpose is to grant your wishes. When someone has this mindset it can cause anger, bitterness, and unbelief when things inevitably go wrong in our lives. But, as stated above, God’s purpose for us isn’t just to be happy, but to be holy. And how does God make us more holy and build our character more? It’s often done by God taking us through hard times and challenging situations. It’s often that people learn and grow the most through hard times than through just good times. Or one example, I recently got meningitis. It’s a terrible sickness that can be fatal. It gave me fevers, body aches, and wildly painful headaches. I was unable to stand for weeks and was hospitalized. But after I recovered I realized how much I had learned and grown as a person. Going through that pain and suffering increased my empathy for others, and because of my experience I found myself being more loving and compassionate to the patients I worked with each day (I work for a hospital). It also taught me things like how precious life is and how I had taken it for granted. By God allowing me to suffer, I was able to grow as a person to be more loving and compassionate! This was truly God’s sanctification. Can God grow us through happiness and pleasure? Absolutely! But he also grows us (sometimes more often than not) through pain and suffering. He doesn’t always take away our storms, but he will always hold our hands through them. Anyway, God bless you sir and I hope you are having a great day. 🙂
@@MapleBoarder78 Glad to hear you're feeling better. What does holy mean to you/christians? You describe it as just building character, but that is not a unique phenomenon of christianity. It is just a by product of conscious life. A muslim or hindu or buddhist or atheist who has suffered a terrible illness and recovered can (& usually does) gain a new sense of empathy and gratitude. But what about someone who suffers a terrible accident or illness and doesn't recover, how has their character grown? They just suffered and died
z x Thanks. I’m very thankful to still be alive. Christian holiness can entail some different avenues. One of the most prevalent views would be the idea of being “set apart” by Yahweh (specifically through belief in Jesus) which involves a unique sanctification process driven and guided by Yahweh’s spirit dwelling inside of you. It does entail, but is not limited to just character building. The “Great Exchange” also plays a role in which Christ takes our sins and we receive his righteousness. This is an aspect of how we are made holy through Christ which is more specific to Christianity as opposed to other faiths. In regards to someone that suffers an accident or illness and dies, that could still play into sanctification for the individual (depending on how long they are sick and/or injured before they die and how God chooses to interact with them during that period). It can also ripple effect into their friend’s and family’s lives as an experience to be used in their sanctification. But ultimately, death would be the end of the sanctification process here on earth. As the book of Hebrews states, “It is appointed man once to die, and after this the judgement.”
How can you not be happy, If you are a cheerfull giver.? How can you not be happy, If your feeding the poor.? How can you not be happy, If you are serving God.? How can you not be happy, If the Holy Spirit of God is in you.? How can you not be happy, If your living a Holy life.? How can you doubt about your faith, If your ignorance, and unbelief.? How can you doubt God, If your ignorance of the word of God.? How can you doubt the bible, If your never able to acknowledges the truth.? How can you not acknowledges the truth, If you are leaning in your own preconcieve idea, your own theology, and the philosopy of men.This are the traditon of mens doctrine. They study the bible base on there own interpretation, there own assumption, there own carnal thinking, or flesh desire. They are not decipline by any writting, or any ideaology of the scripture. They establish there own righteoussness, and have not submitted unto the righteoussness of God. They seek there own invention who Christ in there own opinion. Amazing how they read the scripture out of context, and make merchandise of the word of God. What do you have that you have not recieved from the writting of the apostles of Christ, If you do, why do you boast of yourselves. Is the bible need help, or something is lacking. I preach the gospel freely, freely given, freely give. Many will crept in unnotice among the Churchs of God who will preach flattering word of man, there own goodness, there own righteoussness. They even make there own parable, and proverb to intice the Churches of Christ, and people are liking it. Dont let the blind guide the blind, both of them will fall into a ditcth. They call Me Lord, lord, but you hypocrite, you who practice lawlessness, depart from Me I never knew you. How many are you going to distroy on judgesment day. Many will walk into a wide gate, beçause the thruth will be maligned, No wonder even Satan can pretend an angel of the Lord, who is the Father of all lies. If no one will depend the truth many will believe a lie, and they are accountable for greater condemnation. Take heed no one will decieve you. The end is near. God Bless.
I believed and " prayed a prayer" at camp as a young teen but when I was 19 I was convicted of my sin by the Holy Spirit. I repented and was forgiven and have never been the same since, praise God!
Former believer who realized Christianity and faith are constructs of our own minds. Happy Atheist and proud. Ask questions, as for proof and trust your gut.
@MrFF39 Christianity is an organization, of course there is proof of it existing. There no proof that god, jesus or any of the other people/things/miracles described in the bible existed. People don't trust their gut, they trust what their parents and authority figures tell them. Nobody is born with an inherent knowledge of religion. Nobody is born with ideas like sin. Every single child has to be taught (indoctrinated). And if someone never hears about a specific god then they will never come up with the idea on their own, or make up something else. A new addition to the already countless gods, religions, organizations, cults and denominations.
@MrFF39 LMFAO what do you think an organization is?
Also all of your comments can go both ways.
@MrFF39 I would still consider Christianity to be an organization, but I don't think that is a bad thing. It's not an organization like a company or scientology, but I would consider it an organization as in a charity or just "organized religion". But I also might have thought you meant "Not an organization" meaning there were no efforts to made to ...well...organize?
By this I mean church services being particular times somewhat universally etc.
With 2, I just meant I'm sure there can be "Proof" that can be argued either way-and that on the end of the day it comes down to faith no matter what side you are on.
My current issue with Christianity is I see time and time again people treating others better, caring more etc (even by biblical standards) the further they are from "Christianity".
I came to this video because I am trying to be open minded after experiencing a lot of abuse in the name of God, and its frustrating to see people act like there are no valid points. Or that people that walk away never tried. I have no issue with bad things happening to good people. I have no issue with most of the things they said. (I did only get through half of the video because again abuse) but why would they open the video the way they did. To me it didn't sound like they had consulted someone who was deconstructing. Just someone who had doubted God before, and those are very different things.
How did you come to that conclusion? How do you explain happy vs. holy?
Do you have proof for all the things you base your life on ?
Ah the, "they weren't REALLY Christians response." Shocked! I'm SHOCKED!
These people are desperate they see their faith collapsing all around them, young people leaving the church in droves, the scam that is Christianity can't hide its true nature anymore honestly it is thrilling to see them breaking down over it all lol.
@@comradegotogulag8513 And many atheists melt down when others who were once among their ranks come forward and show their objections are shallow and ignorant.
@@keatsiannightingale2025 I don't why should I care if some atheists change their mind?, I won't demonize them for it. Are our objections shallow and ignorant?, is arguing for progress ignorant?, changing minds in the face of new evidence contrary to religious beliefs?.
@@keatsiannightingale2025 And Christians obviously can't handle critical response to their religion without saying "you never were a Christian....but I know that I am" These two individuals in the video seem to have absolutely no idea what it is to have convictions AGAINST Christianity, not just question their faith.
If you’ve never seen your sin and your desperate need for savior and you’ve never cried out for forgiveness and the savior then you’ve never really known the Power of the Gospel and been born again... right. And Jesus said you must be Born again. Idk. Makes sense to me when they pointed out that none of these folks have ever had a time where they saw themselves as a sinner and knew their need for Jesus. They just don’t really know the depths of their sin and who they really are. For so long I was deceiving myself to think I was truly a good person. Yet I am so grateful that the Holy Spirit revealed the depth of my sin, who I really am, and need because Jesus is so good. He truly transforms by His Grace and Truth. Or was that what you were saying? Sorry I might not be getting your comment :)
🙌🏻 I am a sinner and I need a savior!🙌🏻
Thank you God for your amazing love, grace and mercy that you gave us/me your beloved Son, Jesus Christ!
✨💜✝️💜 ✨
You filled me with your Holy Spirit and now I know you as Father, ‘Abba’/‘Dad’.
Thank you for sharing the love of God. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. 🎉🎉🎉
Nigel Butt 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼.
Nigel Butt happy to talk. It is a tough call standing before Psalm 14, even as an unbeliever I definitely felt judged, condemned and unloved when I heard/read those words, but now I love reading those words as they wash over me and they check my heart for peace and my thinking for offense. The writer is doing me a favour by being so up front, for me personally, I know I can’t and don’t stand before those words without knowing where my peace is anchored. Those Psalm 14 words drive me towards peace that is founded in Truth, Grace and Mercy - the person of Jesus Christ, who is the fullness of God 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻. Where is your peace grounded? If you find it difficult to stand before those words without feeling offended or without peace in your heart, I would gently suggest to check the evidence for your peace.
Jesus Christ loves you, before you even love Him. Ask Him to reveal Himself - what have you got to lose?
💜✝️💜
@ Nigel Butt I guess you have to ask what/who is the standard of your moral authority? From my perspective I’ve come to the point of knowing that God is god and I am not. I also physically, mentally and spiritually do not have the capacity to carry or prop up my view/s of moral authority. When I try, I end up hurting myself and worse still others. I also look around the world and through history, and come to the conclusion that neither does anyone else, as it doesn’t matter how shiny and wonderful people are or the system is there is always a dark underbelly. It is that dark underbelly that needs addressing and when I come to Jesus Christ, He addresses the darkness that is ever creeping within this creation.
I can understand your response to a moral authority saying that we/you/I am evil. I would also add, why should this “moral authority” even bother to tell us we are evil or engage with us in any way? Is it because He just wants to be cruel and rub it in?
I would suggest God does engage, bother with and reveals Himself to us through Scripture and creation, His Spirit filled people, His Holy Spirit and His Son - Jesus Christ, because He believes you are worth it and have inherit value, that is why He takes the time to create an amazing creation for us to live in, creates the human race and describes us as ‘very good’, He knits you together in your mother’s womb to make you uniquely you, He sends you/us Jesus Christ to save you/us by paying the price, He restores us, places His Spirit within us and the list continues.
In relation to Psalm 14 and the rest of the Bible we must view it through the lens of Jesus Christ and not just pick and choose bits that match our own ‘straw man’, limited, put Him in a box perception of God. We definitely don’t like it when people do it to us, so why do that to God - unless we only want to control Him for our own purposes and desires.
When we project moral authority onto ourselves, others, idealistic structures and anything other than God it just doesn’t hold but instead crumbles, because it doesn’t have the power of love to back it up - no matter how much we want to delude ourselves. Only God, who is Love, can back up His word and judgement, so when we make judgements of/against God we need to be very confident of the power and authority that is backing us to stand in such a position.
Draw near to God because how He loves you so and He will empower you to love those who hate you and who you perceive that hate you. It is at the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ you will see the true nature of God and that changes everything. 💜✝️💜
@ Nigel Butt P.S. Not wanting to give the wrong impression, but my Christian story is somewhat a mixture of perspectives being brought up as a child in the Christian Faith, became a Christian as a young person, deconstructed into a form of Christian atheism (sadly, but truthfully - A Pharisee on my better days - a very low point of my life) for many years, to having the world shake me down to my core and then encounter an amazingly faithful God who came to rescue me (truly a stubborn sinner blinded by my own self-righteousness and hate)! If He rescues me ... wow... He will rescue anyone who calls 💖🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻💖.
@Nigel Butt Fair enough - at least it is consistent to your atheist stance, you seem to be your own moral authority and the standard of righteousness, so you are the one by which everything must stand or fall.
I assume by the example you use regarding Genesis, you are “pro-life” in all scenarios, since that is your standard in which you seem to be holding up against God? I guess you have more in common with some Christian groups, why is that? You seem to be making a judgement upon God of what is good and evil, why is your judgement of good and evil better than that of the Christian God? What is it based on?
It was undoubtably a highly stressful situation that you were in after your accident and the drugs would alter your mind as you understand by delving into neuroscience.
Why did you run to science to interpret your experience? Out of interest, is science the authority that you hold above yourself or are you still at the top?
"Our faith is so experiential. it's so benefit-oriented" I have been thinking on this the last several days. we gotta change it
1. Faith is simply pretending to know something that you don't actually know.
2. Anyone can believe anything using faith.
3. Faith is what people use when they have no evidence.
4. All religions use faith which demonstrates that it is invalid.
5. Faith is not a pathway to the truth.
6. You should not be proud of your faith you should be ashamed that you cannot backup your claims with any truth.
Most interesting. As someone who went through deconstruction, i found this talk to be enlightening. However, I have come to the realization that I was not born broken sin is a man made concept and I can make my own purpose in life. As I have also found out that faith is not a good way to live your life. Credible evidence and experience is.
I would urge you to really consider the evidence. Please let me know if you need any resources. What do you think about the historical existence of Jesus?
@@HoldToChrist What evidence is there to consider? Any evidence aside, from a purely reasonable and logical point of view, the God of the Bible is a narcissistic bully and extortionist.
And what's the evidence you speak of?
@@jsea321 do you say the same thing about parents and teachers teaching you right from wrong? It's wrong to just put this on the church.
John 6:66-69 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
This was so helpful! As a mom of a young person, I really needed to hear this. Thank you!
Assuming a multiverse of all possible world's for which my conscious traverse (pilgrimage) is determined by "choice".
These choices instantiate the divergence of timelines.
Logical possibilities:
1. Only one perfect universe where no entropy exists is possible.(Best of all possible world ruled by the summum bonnam apriori, The rule by which all other universes must be measured. kingdom of God of heaven. Eden, paradise.)
That universe is necessary for the maintenance of all other universes contingent.
2.For all contingent universes entropy is present (which in the moral argument is called evil, and instantiated by wrong choice, to miss the bullseye, the perfect anthropic model or constraint.)
3.To presume free will is to presume the ability to either instantiate infinitely many right choices to travel a timeline to the perfect universe.
4.Being in a universe in which entropy exists is to be in a universe where all choices are confined to entropy, leading to all possible choices decaying into a heat death. My free will must end in sin and death.
5.A necessary being in that necessary universe could freely choose without entropy to lead my time line to the perfect universe, and that is necessarily only his choice, such as he finds necessarily good since it is by his own necessity that it is accomplished.
6.The only being qualified to travel a perfect time line from complete entropy in that possible universe would of necessity be the necessary being. It was necessary for Him to descend from the necessary universe (heaven), to the universe of infinite entropy (hell), to sustain all possible universes which he maintained.
7.If He chose, I might be counted by Him as a witness in some possible universe (that is to worship Glorify God eternally), for this contingency could perfectly compliment His necessity).
I choose not to choose, surrender this idea of free will which is my reasonable service, which is to receive the grace of gratitude, humility, and worship in the absolute, necessarily for the one necessary being whom I know (am conscious of, or awakened to)is Jesus of Nazareth.
I think it would have been really helpful to have interviewed someone (multiple people would be even better) who is currently deconstructing or who has deconstructed and landed outside of evangelical Christianity. I don't think deconstruction has been portrayed accurately here.
As someone who has deconstructed and was all of the things you mentioned that could prevent deconstruction (a solid foundation, a non "fluff" Christianity, solid Biblical base, complete realization of the gospel, etc.) - I think you misrepresented countless people. Please consider having someone on who really understands and can accurately explain what deconstruction is. These people, like me, deserve to have our stories heard and to be represented truthfully.
Excellent point.
I don't think they will ever do this because they are threatened by deconstruction. The way Alisa talks about it especially is very fearful.
@@saskiascott8181 so true. I wish Alisa would, but I think you're right.
Yes, there is a difference between questioning your faith, and deconstruction. They don't understand their arrogance and complete misunderstanding is a huge part of the problem.
AMEN to that!!! AMEN!!
Keep praying for the ones you love, who seem lost or have rejected their faith. God worked on my heart through dozens of people for 20 years. Though perhaps more importantly, he allowed me to personally witness the depths of human depravity, and recognize my desperate need for Him and the boundaries he put in place for His children. I needed to understand sin, especially my own, before I could appreciate my need for His grace.
I grew up in church, hardcore evangelical. I am currently deconstructing. I am seeing a huge amount of trauma surface and a lot of toxic spirituality I am purging. If anyone wants to know about what deconstruction is, (at least from my perspective) feel free to ask me anything.
It is refreshing to see your comment. I have deconstructed and don't think this video gets to a lot of the real reasons people deconstruct and also why deconstruction is so healthy and worth respecting.
What kind of trauma?
@@dahelmang hello. Being raised in purity culture, I had a lot of sexual health issues- feeling extreme shame and guilt, and awful anxiety. The other emotional health issues I developed later on were similar to systems of ctsd or ptsd: low self esteem/self worth, anger, feeling anxious and depressed and not knowing why, apologizing constantly even when I haven’t done anything wrong; for a lot of my adult life it has been difficult making basic decisions and feeling like I don’t deserve anything good in my life. Being fearful off and on without explanation; I’m a grab bag of fun traumatic emotions.
@@shanepennino5598 wow sounds pretty bad. I'm sorry that your church was so awful to you.
I’d recommend the Recovering From Religion Foundation or perhaps TheraminTrees here on CZcams. Truth is worth it.
The odd thing here is that the conversation is overwhelmingly presented an there only being two choices: Christianity being entirely true or nothing else. There is no binary. I left my faith in Christianity behind because of a long, drawn out process that I won't go into much.
Guilt for sin and a feeling of redemption were inherent in my experience of Christianity. But I eventually realized that I believed and felt what I did because I was raised to. I HAD transcendent experiences where I was brought to tears, particularly on retreat, but I also had them doing non-religious things. I felt them while listening to music, while looking at art. After I left, I felt transcendence in my experimentation with Buddhism. I can honestly say that I felt the same feeling while meditating in my room with my prayer beads as did on retreat with the church I was raised in.
Later on I became interested in the early Christian churches and how there were so many ideas about what God was, about Jesus, many of which would be unrecognizable to modern Christians. And that is just for one group of religions at one time. Different groups of European Jews had and still have vastly different ideas and experiences. Hinduism is extremely diverse, with many ideas about God that have changed over time. Buddhism differs by region and time and individual. There are as many religions as there are people. It isn't correct to talk about it as if there were two choices: christianity (in a broad sense) or nothing.
Personally, I think that teenagers and young people are healthier if their religious beliefs, if they have them, are constantly changing. Experimentation is important for understanding the self. I'm in my thirties, and my views on religion differ from what they were a few years ago. The universe is too big, and humans are too small and narrow minded for a single religion practiced by humans to be entirely true, if such a thing even existed at all.
I also find it interesting that they didn't actually interview anyone in the video or show clips and are rather talking ABOUT people, as if people undergoing deconstruction don't have a voice of their own.
This was so good, guys. Thank you for your honesty and insight. Really good for the soul ❤️
Sean is a great human with an amazing father. First time I have heard him. How refreshing! Humility is not common in religious leaders. When an authentic Christian and humane leader appears on the scene, it is so encouraging.
I really think you should have a debate or discussion with God is Gray. I love your podcast. I feel so refreshed when I listen to you.
Second this would love to see you two ladies have a discussion
💯 I just recently heard about god is grey.
Yessss I need this!! She did a response to you lately as well
Unfortunately neither of them would ever recognize the goddess that is Brenda as a Christian.
I’m a former Christian. It doesn’t matter why. To hear that self righteous punk say, in effect, that one was not a true Christian if they eventually leave the faith is infuriating. And it’s the pinnacle of hubris and sanctimoniousness. It’s the kind of finger-pointing judgment that drives doubters from religion. I’m better off. Good riddance.
Yet ultimately it is not about you - it's about Jesus Christ; therefore it is His testimony you have rejected since apparently you no longer believe it.
1 John 2:19 (KJV) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
I can't say I blame you if it is 'religiousity' you rejected, but to reject that Jesus is the Christ is what it means to deny the faith.
No true scotts man fallacy mate.
@@oli073 "Leave the faith" is ubiquitos. It is our belief in Christ that marks one as belonging to Him. Therefore if one denies Him then he no longer is in Christ. Therefore it is not a scotsman fallacy to say he was not a true Christian. If it were over some other issue by which this was declared (like whether a true Christian can approve of abortion...) then the fallacy is at play. The fact that the OP continued for awhile is already covered in scripture - Mat 13
Pisses me off too. It's arrogance at its peak.
I left the Cult a long time ago too. I’m currently reading “Pure” by Linda Kay Klein. For this guy to say that people who leave because they didn’t feel their sin is just ignorant. He needs to read the book. That Christian judgment of sin has been drilled into kids since birth. These people cause real harm.
Several times each has said how much they love the "evidence", but then go on to describe how an emotional experience is better. If you're truly out to connect with anyone that's experiencing deconstruction, maybe try to cite some of the evidence rather than deflect away from it. A lot of people that are in a state of doubt are desperately searching for solid evidence to remain in the faith, and apologetics seems to push more away than bring back in.
I’m thankful faith isn’t purely based on feelings or experiences.
It isn't, it's based on what God does for us and without emotional reactions and experiences in relationship with God were not acting as one made in his image, as a relational being like God lives in relation with Jesus and the holy spirit.
Josh puts it so well, we need truth and experience...
@@KJ-lb4tj oh I’m not saying that experience is to be excluded. I should clarify that it shouldn’t be purely based on emotional experience. ( when life is difficult or our walk is dry, to throw away our faith). It’s during these times that we need to hold fast to God.
Paul's faith was based on experience wasn't it? Jesus came to him, knocked him off the horse, blinding him for three days and asked why he was persecuting him. That's when his faith and conversion began.
@@jeffreyyoungblood7438 Yes. He experienced Jesus and got to know the truth. Afterwards he studied with Peter for three years. Experiences are not bad, but they are often only for the person themselves. If you want to argue with others about why Christianity is true, you will need evidential material and reasonable argument. :)
This sounds a lot like putting new wine in old wine skins. They adopt Christianity, but are never made new by it. Eventually they burst and both the vessel and the wine are lost. Very sad.
To me, this is exactly who it’s referring to regarding those who have tasted it but fall away. All of the Christians, whom, when things get hard, they burst... they leave. The ones who were “never of us.”
I think the better analogy is that evangelical Christianity can't stretch to hold the new things God is doing so it bursts and people have to deconstruct.
@@saskiascott8181 I've kind of come full circle on that idea. What God is doing seems new to us bc we've never encountered it before, but he's just doing the same thing he's always done bc he isn't the one who's changing. That's just my perspective though. I'm genuinely curious what new things you're talking about.
Yeah, neither do I believe God is doing anything new. The truth is, what we’ve been referring to as “Christianity” for the last 500 years is just splintering offshoots of Catholicism, created by the Romans. This is why we say “go to church,” when such a phrase would be considered strange to the New Testament Christians.
We say “go to church” because the Catholics considered their priesthood to be the church, not the Christians who came to it. Not the Christians but the priesthood alone was considered the church, something they still believe to this day, although more muddled.
It’s funny to me that “God” keeps telling so many people to start new “churches,” and so they go and rent a building, and think of a name to call it, register with the government under 501c3, and determine which denomination they’re going to be... is God Catholic?
That’s complete foolishness. When God wants Christians to start springing up they simply DO, and they are drawn together the way they were in the beginning. The only separation the New Testament acknowledges in Christianity is geography. The Christians of Philippi, the Church of Corinth, the church of Nashville, the church of Paris, the Church of Spokane, and so on.
What we consider Church is so different from what the book of Acts looked like. Almost nothing about it is similar. Of course people are leaving it in droves as the world is beginning to consider it useless. It’s a worldly institution!
@@joshuashepard583 I think for a lot of us the word 'church' is more habitual than a statement of ontology (what it is, it's existential nature). It has clouded the issue, making church a time and place instead of the people of God. You're right though, the church has become a bastardized version of what it was intended to be, as did Israel before us. That's what humans tend to do with God's stuff - we rework it to our own purposes. What I don't like is that Pastors have to preach to the bottom line in order to stay fiscally solvent, so they have to cater to whatever people want to hear in order to keep butts in the pews and tithes flowing. The bottom line is, regardless of whatever we may think, God, as you pointed out, is always in control and we can trust that He's going to do what's best for His kingdom and those who believe in Christ. I'm excited to see what He brings out of all this turmoil and confusion.
The sacrifice and ressuction somehow resonates with our inner being for sure. I saw this along the way. When I was around 10, I didn't have exactly a Christian background and nobody ever told me about the meaning of the sacrifice of Christ. Then, one day I saw a film about Jesus life. When it got to the point of the sacrifice, I was completely overwhelmed and touched, I just started crying and I didn't know why (I m not exactly a crying person, I must say) . Later on, I became a Christian in my early 20s. I witnessed the same experience twice. A guy with very secular view and no knowledge of the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ went with a bunch o people, I was included in the group as well, to see the passion of christ. During the entire atonement scene, this guy was sobbing, crying like a baby, but not just him, but many, many people in the cinema. I've never seen this happens with any other film at that level really. Another situation I witnessed that reminded of myself was with a student , 9 years old. She closed her eyes, started praying in her own way and cryied a lot when she saw passages of the Passion film at school. I must say that there was no preaching, no suggestions before the video. She was only under the influence of the holy Spirit. In fact, the other students were mind-blowing by her reaction to the video. So, there is something really powerful to Jesus 'life that speaks for itself.
Alisa your book is very much needed. There are so many Christians who are afraid to voice what they are truly feeling. Most of the hurt and confusion is it from being taught a false gospel. Wondering why they are not experiencing the things they are being told they should have. Wealth, health, walking on water type stuff. Thank you for the time you put into this much needed ministry.
Assuming a multiverse of all possible world's for which my conscious traverse (pilgrimage) is determined by "choice".
These choices instantiate the divergence of timelines.
Logical possibilities:
1. Only one perfect universe where no entropy exists is possible.(Best of all possible world ruled by the summum bonnam apriori, The rule by which all other universes must be measured. kingdom of God of heaven. Eden, paradise.)
That universe is necessary for the maintenance of all other universes contingent.
2.For all contingent universes entropy is present (which in the moral argument is called evil, and instantiated by wrong choice, to miss the bullseye, the perfect anthropic model or constraint.)
3.To presume free will is to presume the ability to either instantiate infinitely many right choices to travel a timeline to the perfect universe.
4.Being in a universe in which entropy exists is to be in a universe where all choices are confined to entropy, leading to all possible choices decaying into a heat death. My free will must end in sin and death.
5.A necessary being in that necessary universe could freely choose without entropy to lead my time line to the perfect universe, and that is necessarily only his choice, such as he finds necessarily good since it is by his own necessity that it is accomplished.
6.The only being qualified to travel a perfect time line from complete entropy in that possible universe would of necessity be the necessary being. It was necessary for Him to descend from the necessary universe (heaven), to the universe of infinite entropy (hell), to sustain all possible universes which he maintained.
7.If He chose, I might be counted by Him as a witness in some possible universe (that is to worship Glorify God eternally), for this contingency could perfectly compliment His necessity).
I choose not to choose, surrender this idea of free will which is my reasonable service, which is to receive the grace of gratitude, humility, and worship in the absolute, necessarily for the one necessary being whom I know (am conscious of, or awakened to)is Jesus of Nazareth.
Thank you. So many excellent points made and topics covered. I didn’t realize that you were related to Josh McDowell. I became a Christian in the 70’s and his books were really the only ones of that kind that we knew of.
Assuming a multiverse of all possible world's for which my conscious traverse (pilgrimage) is determined by "choice".
These choices instantiate the divergence of timelines.
Logical possibilities:
1. Only one perfect universe where no entropy exists is possible.(Best of all possible world ruled by the summum bonnam apriori, The rule by which all other universes must be measured. kingdom of God of heaven. Eden, paradise.)
That universe is necessary for the maintenance of all other universes contingent.
2.For all contingent universes entropy is present (which in the moral argument is called evil, and instantiated by wrong choice, to miss the bullseye, the perfect anthropic model or constraint.)
3.To presume free will is to presume the ability to either instantiate infinitely many right choices to travel a timeline to the perfect universe.
4.Being in a universe in which entropy exists is to be in a universe where all choices are confined to entropy, leading to all possible choices decaying into a heat death. My free will must end in sin and death.
5.A necessary being in that necessary universe could freely choose without entropy to lead my time line to the perfect universe, and that is necessarily only his choice, such as he finds necessarily good since it is by his own necessity that it is accomplished.
6.The only being qualified to travel a perfect time line from complete entropy in that possible universe would of necessity be the necessary being. It was necessary for Him to descend from the necessary universe (heaven), to the universe of infinite entropy (hell), to sustain all possible universes which he maintained.
7.If He chose, I might be counted by Him as a witness in some possible universe (that is to worship Glorify God eternally), for this contingency could perfectly compliment His necessity).
I choose not to choose, surrender this idea of free will which is my reasonable service, which is to receive the grace of gratitude, humility, and worship in the absolute, necessarily for the one necessary being whom I know (am conscious of, or awakened to)is Jesus of Nazareth.
I want to have that kind of relationship with my kids that Sean had wirh his dad. 🙏🏻
My personal experience was that I had many moments of feeling like a worthless sinner, but I feel my true 'conversion' was when I realised it's a lie that I'm inherently bad, just as it's a lie that I am perfect or can be good and mistake free. The truth is that I'm a loved person. I'm loved by God and that's the truth. Who am I to judge myself as His creation? That's why I'm not an evangelical anymore, because the evangelical obsession with self flagellating just had me in a circle of constantly trying to make myself feel bad so that I could be more grateful for Jesus. But Jesus came to set me free from that so I can truly live!
Agreed. For myself, it was a truly spiritual experience to be set free from the religious prison of Christianity. It was such a difficult experience, so much grief and fear and grasping at straws trying to hold onto my "faith", only to realize when I finally had no choice but to face up to the truth and let go of all the Christian dogma, that God had been holding me all through it. I liken my life as a Christian to being in a dark prison but not even realizing it until I was released into the light. It was, for me, a true salvation experience.
I struggle with this. I know God is just end has rules, because honestly, God could not be good, if he did not have rules, a moral standard of right and wrong, and consequences or judgment for people who do not follow those rules. The world would be absolutely chaotic if God was just blindly OK towards anybody who did anything. However, I do realize that constantly trying to look over my own shoulder and make sure that I’m doing everything perfectly, it’s not a sustainable way of living. I do have to realize God loves me, and somehow I have to marry that with knowing that I also have the responsibility to live righteously. It’s a difficult dance that I am trying to figure out.
@@arianahelvie9897 so true. I think for me what resolved the tension was choosing to step away from "good and bad" as a dichotomy I had to label things with - not that they don't exist, but that only God knows - and that it's not my job to be the arbiter of that, even within myself. All I need to know is I'm loved, and that the Spirit is calling and working within me. Each day is a conscious choice to remember that love, to listen to that voice.
So true. The value of something is determined by the price we are willing to pay to get it.
Look at what was willing to pay to get us . Is that the price one would pay for a worthless sin? The answer is no.
Yes we are loved and highly valued by God.
And considering all that he puts up with us to sustain us in the relationship to him through Jesus-Christ , it's mind blowing !
I love God for the way he loves me.
He can have the whole of me.
You really could not have hit that on the head better than to say Evangelicals are obsessed with self flagellation. It’s almost to the point of being a kink. Dare I even suggest a sexual kink. It’s the full hair shirt thing, it’s the laying spread eagled on the ground, it’s the sack cloth, the ashes, the fasting, the weeping, and the constant reinforcement that you (just as you) could never be loved even by God. It’s the constant use of verses like ‘my own righteousness before God is like filthy rags.’ It’s the almost pornographic depiction of Christ crucified with sound effects, blood, nails, chains, scourging and a crown of thorns that just lets you know that compared to God how could you ever be good? It reeks of having to self loathe, it’s reeks of having no sense of personal value, self worth and purpose. It’s psychologically harmful and I’d even describe it as spiritually abusive.
I left evangelical Christianity in my late teens. I respect the decisions others have made, but I know I made the right choice. Decades later, I'm not an atheist, and my religious views can be summed up by the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 25, and American Founding Father Thomas Paine's creed: "I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
I'm not going to retell my story, but I'll just say this after a few decades away: the church cannot thrive without embracing the teachings of Jesus as reflected in the Sermon on the Mount and the Matthew 25. Instead, too many who profess to be Christians refuse to stand with the poor, the struggling, the downtrodden, and they refuse to have a meaningful and respectful dialogue with those who may call God by another name, or who may disagree with you on whatever point. They embrace prideful and hateful public figures - you know who they are - in exchange for a tax cut or a judicial appointment. They profess to be pro-life, but they're really pro-birth. They applaud invective filled public dialogue while rejecting the biblical admonition to reason together.
If you want others to follow Jesus, stand with those Jesus stood with. The tired, the poor, the downcast. That's the whole ballgame.
Thanks for this. So tired of the whole “people only leave because they want to party” narrative. It’s so dismissive.
Im gonna have to disagree. I think people think they know the God of the Bible better than those of us who walk this thing our daily. You know someone when you spend time with them. You’ve mixed a lot of biblical assumptions with your cultural ideas. Jesus died for ALL people. Not just the marginalized. Culture is trying to paint an inaccurate picture of the faith and that’s the image people try to hold believers too. Those are “your” ( cultural) standards, not ours. But I do agree that the church can do better, but we are human and fall short.
@@jonathanwinskie9788 Actually, some want to do what they want to do with no restrictions, not necessarily wanting to party, but wanting his or her own way. Why do I say this? I am one of them, hence, the struggle. Christianity was never meant to be easy. Again, hence, the struggle to be a Christian in a world that is often hostile towards God.
@@deeanderson4164 the Christian persecution complex is real here 🙄
@@jonathanwinskie9788 Meaning?
i never even heard of the term deconstruction, i sort of feel like i am losing my faith, and I dont like it.....please give me help or prayer
Don't lose your faith
Wonderful discussion, thank you!
I've noticed that many of the notable ones who have abandoned Christianity often leave a hardline group (fundamentalists being the most common with Calvinists a close second).
it is scary to see what indoctrination, auto-deception, and ignorance can do to people even while they are in the midst of the “information age”. For all the people who are currently in the midst of “losing your faith” ( aka thinking critically), it isn’t because of sin or some ludicrous concept like some omnipotent being testing you. You are growing, you are getting educated, you are thinking not as a mindless member of an affiliation, but an autonomous being. Go, keep looking, keep researching. Look into the history of abrahamic religions, Zoroastrianism, the resemblance of Canaanite to ancient hebrew, the similarities of stories of the bible to older stories from the surrounding area (the epic of gilgamesh is a good start), the inconsistencies of the text compared to archeology. Rid yourself of the dogma, the truth is out there, all you must do is cast out the guilt and look.
Christians who express doubt and start researching their beliefs is where it all starts, the ones that jump back in are terrified of what they discover. We are NOT special, there’s NO definitive evidence that a sky daddy watches over us, and the Bible is no different from the Quran, Book of Mormon etc. Sean McDowell was almost there when he wrote his thesis on the Martyrdom of the apostles, but he couldn’t take that final step…
This conversation really resonated with me. I was baptised in 2014 and I've never had any illusions that Christianity should be easy or comfortable. I decided to become a Christian because I understood that this physical world ultimately has very little to offer and hope and salvation can only be found in Christ. I've never had any sort of profound spiritual experience and I've certainly fallen off the wagon many times. It makes sense that these Christians who have spent their lives believing Christianity was something that they could use to gain worldly prominence are now deconstructing. I'm not convinced they ever really knew what Christianity really is.
It's amazing how much you guys have completely missed with people leaving.
Maybe listen next time instead of thinking something is wrong and how to fix them
I placed my belief in the bible and in Christ (It is completely arrogant to sit there and say that a person was never saved or sincere). Feelings had nothing to do with the deconstruction of my faith. A lot of it had to do with the close-mindedness of those in the church, the inability for the majority of the church to correctly interpret scripture. It's almost like most have never read the book. And as much as it's not supposed to be about feelings, they sure do try and push the buttons of your emotions a lot. Why do this if feelings aren't a part of it. I'm not saying, I think it is. I'm just pointing out your inconsistencies.
The real thing that affected my deconstruction WAS learning about the history or the church. The whole book is written for Israel. It's been added to, and edited. That evidence is enough for me to deem the bible untrue, although filled with great motivating stories that contain ancient wisdom, and I love the teachings of Jesus, I have to follow where truth points me. You can't come back from it. I was totally depressed when I found out that the bible was untrue. So to say that someone was never saved or sincere is absurd. God is the one that saves, according to theology, the gift is free, all I had to do was accept it. You should stop saying people aren't saved because it makes you sound arrogant and insensitive, and like you don't understand your own theology. You don't know other people's struggles nor can you begin to know whether or not they were sincere. Let God take some responsibility here.
Also, my leaving had nothing to do with not getting what I wanted from God. In, fact, I have nothing against God or Jesus, God WAS the foundation to my life, my answer for everything, the only thing that made this crazy life make sense. It's very hard to follow to path of truth, it means letting go of things that have meant so much to you.
@@brandoncurbow4752 MANY inconsistencies in the church.... the very "body of Christ' is divided. There are THOUSANDS of denominations and interpretations and they ALL think that THEIR interpretation is the correct one.
@@Juliana65 Yes, there are so many denominations and it's been that way from the beginning of the Christian movement. The church has never agreed on doctrine and they still don't to this day. I have seen how Christianity has morphed just over the last 20 years. Imagine all the denominations and different beliefs involving Christianity that we've never even heard throughout earlier centuries. Yes, thousands!
It has nothing to do with feelings, and everything to do with seeking truth. It blows my mind how many excuses the church makes for the inconsistencies of the NT. Lack of faith is the go to when you have questions regarding this. Or they tell you the devil made you think that. How absurd. Christians believe that every bad thought comes from the devil. But what about the doctrine of original sin. NT say our righteousness is as filthy rags in comparison to the divine. So which is it, our own filthy thoughts or implanted thoughts from the devil? They can't answer these questions. The NT is full of lies designed to invoke fear.
@@brandoncurbow4752 so jesus left you?
@@gospeljoy5713 Go read your bible and study your history. You're behind the curve I'm sorry to say. Get rid of your Christian concordance and just read with the same discrepancy as you would read the Quran. To answer your question, jesus died some 2000 year ago, he hasn't come to or left anybody. The church preys on those with Empathy and deep emotions.
YESSSSS!!! 👏🏻👏🏻 I grew up in the church but it wasn’t until I went through 12 Steps and had to come face to face with my pride and absolute sinfulness that I was truly saved. Sean explains that experience PERFECTLY. Thank you for these words to help me tell my salvation story better!
One thing is missing in the evangelical church is corporate confession of sin at the beginning of the service.
Like leading the church in a prayer of repentance before service?
@@lloydtucker5647 and you unravelled all of that from confessing together as a church body? Wow, that escalated quickly...
@@renaud_gagne
My apologies. My reply was meant for an entirely different video. It was placed here by mistake.
I highly recommend Pastor.Bryan Wolfmueller’s book entitled ‘Has American Christianity Failed? This brought me back to faith. ’
So glad to see the faith being passed from generation to generation. Oh may all who come behind us find us faithful, may the fire of our devotion light their way.
This was great! Thank you too you both!
Assuming a multiverse of all possible world's for which my conscious traverse (pilgrimage) is determined by "choice".
These choices instantiate the divergence of timelines.
Logical possibilities:
1. Only one perfect universe where no entropy exists is possible.(Best of all possible world ruled by the summum bonnam apriori, The rule by which all other universes must be measured. kingdom of God of heaven. Eden, paradise.)
That universe is necessary for the maintenance of all other universes contingent.
2.For all contingent universes entropy is present (which in the moral argument is called evil, and instantiated by wrong choice, to miss the bullseye, the perfect anthropic model or constraint.)
3.To presume free will is to presume the ability to either instantiate infinitely many right choices to travel a timeline to the perfect universe.
4.Being in a universe in which entropy exists is to be in a universe where all choices are confined to entropy, leading to all possible choices decaying into a heat death. My free will must end in sin and death.
5.A necessary being in that necessary universe could freely choose without entropy to lead my time line to the perfect universe, and that is necessarily only his choice, such as he finds necessarily good since it is by his own necessity that it is accomplished.
6.The only being qualified to travel a perfect time line from complete entropy in that possible universe would of necessity be the necessary being. It was necessary for Him to descend from the necessary universe (heaven), to the universe of infinite entropy (hell), to sustain all possible universes which he maintained.
7.If He chose, I might be counted by Him as a witness in some possible universe (that is to worship Glorify God eternally), for this contingency could perfectly compliment His necessity).
I choose not to choose, surrender this idea of free will which is my reasonable service, which is to receive the grace of gratitude, humility, and worship in the absolute, necessarily for the one necessary being whom I know (am conscious of, or awakened to)is Jesus of Nazareth.
I don't know why, but just recently You Tube has thrown a lot of 'why i left Christianity' stories at me. What has struck me is that most (if not all) of them are by people who were attached to organisations that I don't recognise as being Christian. Prosperity gospel 'churches', 'churches' led by charismatic people who preach themselves instead of Christ and so on. One wonders if they ever knew Christ.
i left christianity in the mid-2000s in college while completing a degree in biblical studies. biblical criticism played no small part in my loss of faith. atheism turned out to be a complete and utter disaster for me and i wish i'd never gone in that direction. that being said, this idea that people who leave the faith were never really believers is utter nonsense. i was a true believer. i was saved at ten years old and it was like taking a bath on the inside. i was extremely zealous. had i been a muslim i might have blown myself up in my zeal. it's disingenuous to accuse people who leave christianity of never having believed in the first place.
Another super piece. Keep up the good work.
Watching this makes me SO glad I’m not financially tied to Christianity. I’m so much happier and such a more giving, kinder person since letting go of Bronze Age mythology and superstition.
Candide by Voltaire was my first experience with deconstruction. Norton Critical Edition. The point was made, eventually, by my own experience.
I grew up in sincere, authentic Christian belief. In my freshman year in college I looked at the world and the sins of the flesh and saw something inferior. Like the disciples realized, who or what else is better. Nothing is. My hopes and faith never was in any church, organization, personality but in the living God and the real and resurrected Christ. What else is better? This world is a train wreck in process. It and we all need a flawless, dependable Savior with a plan. Who else is available?
Read M. Scott Peck's testimony of coming to faith by looking at evil. PEOPLE OF THE LIE. Looking honestly at evil leads to the realization that we all and the whole world needs a Savior. Praise God, we have one but the truth is only one. The One. Thank God has provided one.
i’m currently going through a lot of what Sean went through in college - down to being 19 and in college. please pray for me, I’m struggling so badly with doubt. it scares me because i don’t want to lose faith
Truth is found in Jesus. You have to focus on Him. The answers are there, but they take a lifetime to find and chasing them can distract us from building that personal relationship with God. I'm all about finding answers to questions, but maybe other people in your church have already found them and can help you.
Praying for you.🙏.....hold tight to Jesus. He is real and loves you unconditionally, which no human can do♥️
Hi Maddie. I recommend writing down the questions you have and what arguments that is making you struggle. Pray about finding an answer and seek out someone you trust with these questions and who wants to give you answers. Ask for evidence and bible verse from this person. Keep asking questions :) if you can't find anyone and you really need to get somewhere in your struggles, you can tell me here and we will work together to get your questions answered. No question is wrong or dumb! :) God be with you Maddie.
@@chickachicken5620 thank you!!
Start a prayer dairy. It does not matter if it's on a computer or a plain notebook pad... Put it in a sacred place - even a special desk drawer... Pour out your heart to God (Jeremiah 29:1-14) and then read them to Him as if talking to the Heavenly Father He is. Acknowledge Him and give Him credit for every waking moment... even for small things. Pray about everything that troubles you. Purify your thoughts (Philippians 4:6-8)... (Gratefulness is the key to knowing how good God is.)... Keep your ears open to God's word. (Romans 10:17)... AND remember --- God is not in the business of making you HAPPY, but Holy and JOYFUL - because you are precious to Him and He made you for an awesome PURPOSE! (Jeremiah 29:1-14)... He is NOT an entertainer, a joy credit card, or a weapon against people... He is a healer! Trust God and you will see your place in His plan and the treasures of His TRUTH: Origin, Meaning , Morality, and Destiny that people have found.
Christianity is NOT a RELIGION. It is a RELATIONSHIP between a loving God and His creation: YOU.
My “deconstruction” is not a crisis of faith but rather a crisis of how and where to express that faith. I am evangelical but the behavior of evangelicals during the pandemic and the Trump years has been horrifying - I read “The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind” and it hit me hard but also gave me context and explanation for what I was feeling. It probably saved me from a true “deconstruction”. I am not sure where I will ultimately express my faith but I think that evangelicalism as an expression of Christian community as currently constructed has run its course at least in the West.
False gospel = false conversion with no Holy Spirit. I believe this sums up what is primarily found in our churches. The pews are full of lost, worldly people who think they are saved. So sad.
I was one of them, until I came to true repentance and surrendered my life to Jesus. I actually felt myself come alive with His Spirit. Seriously, it was like someone turned on the light. The grass was greener, the sky bluer. So awesome. That was 12 years ago and I have been on fire for God ever since.
This was me too, except instead of a false gospel there was no gospel. I was taught that baptism saves.... but it was never explained what we were being saved from or for. I spent 24 years thinking I was “saved” and then heard the full gospel for the first time 3 months ago. Face to the floor repenting and born again! I also felt my heart being made new, literally in my chest it was new. I'm a completely different person, and it breaks my heart thinking of how many people are like I was--blind but think they see.
Yes praise God.
I had questions. I asked for opinions from people who agreed with me and surprise, I kept my faith. That's how religion works. Surround yourself with cult members and you remain in the cult
Perhaps people leave church because they seek a genuine relation with the One true God!
I was a Christian for over 20 years and was attracted to the Pentecostal movement. Then one day I prayed for wisdom as the book of James says, and in two weeks I started to see the theological invalidity and emotional blackmail of Christian theology and the church. I am so happy that I got out and that now I'm able to have a genuine relationship with the One true Creator God. Pray for wisdom guys, and may God open you'r eyes and bless you forever.
So many thoughts, not sure where to even start. The central point that jumped out to me was Sean talking about a deep experience of being aware of your sin being the mark of 'true faith'. I think it is true that there is link between radical vulnerability and spiritual transformation. A lot of the 'headliner' testimonies you grew up hearing (I was about to die from drugs, I was in a gang, I was about to jump) are so powerful because you are hearing a story of someone whose life armor eventually all came down and became vulnerable enough to have a deeply transformative experience. I, like Sean, always wished that I could have a better testimony. "I grew up a pastors kid and wanted to serve God and the church ever since" just sounded so lame. I could not really connect with my Christian story being a radical before/after thing, I prayed the prayer with my parents when I was 5. It always made sense and I knew God was real as much as I have ever known anything was real, there was never a before and after, just one journey.
Yet, everything in my Evangelical environment was telling me that this 'deep down inside' experience of repentance was the center of faith. So year after year, I mentally forced myself to make that 'deep down inside repentance experience' true. I cant count how many times I re-prayed the prayer, how many confessions of sin, how many get down on my knees moments or walk up to the altar moments. I even waited to get baptized until I was 21 years old (despite already being a camp counselor, small group leader, ministry leader, and having completed a degree in theology) because I was waiting for the 'deep down inside repentance experience' and thinking maybe I had not done enough to force it to happen. But the thing about spiritual transformation is that you cannot force it. 25 years of trying to manufacture spiritual transformation passed from the first time I prayed the prayer.
And then my Born Again experience came, very much unwanted and without my permission. What brought me to the end of my rope, to a place of radical vulnerability, was the bankruptcy of my own Evangelical theology of original sin and Biblical infallibility. I simply could not keep forcing myself to 'feel my sinfulness and God's love' when I was not feeling much of anything anymore in Church. I took a month to be a live in volunteer with a Catholic Worker community that assisted folks living on the street, and just could not muster the will to go to church (having basically never not gone in my whole life). On one of my off days, I went to the beach to keep reading yet another theology/apologetics book trying to get God off the hook for horrific OT violence (that had always been the biggest theological thorn in my side, never caused me to doubt for 25 years, but I wanted to have a good answer for other people about those texts and never felt like I really did). The book was pretty good as those kind of books go (Fight by Preston Sprinkle I think), but about half way through I could not turn another page. I wasn't sure what was happening to me, it was rather out of body, like I wasn't really choosing it. I put the book down, and my own voice inside me loudly said "I am done defending the Bible". I was stunned. Was that my voice, did I really just say that? Like I never have before or since, I physically felt something inside me crack open, and I knew 'deep down inside' that there was no going back. I should have taken off my shoes because that bench by the beach was holy ground. From that day I started the journey from Evangelical Christian to Humanist Christian, from Saul to Paul.
So in a weird way, I agree and identify with the idea behind some of Sean's reflections and the 'intense' testimonies that I heard growing up: that true faith comes from an experience of deep internal transformation, that it comes from being Born Again. And if someone has not yet had a deep 'there is no going back' moment, it is pretty much impossible to explain this to them. Many Evangelicals, particularly those who came from traumatic family backgrounds or substance abuse problems, have indeed had this moment I am talking about, I don't doubt them for a second. But most Evangelicals are like Sean and me, this was a family business and we grew into it until it became our own, then perhaps passed it on to the next generation. We muddle and manage through, having moments of genuine commitment and feeling but just as many moments of going through the motions. And all the while, underneath the worship songs, bible studies, and quiet times, there is always that little voice of doubt, 'am I really in?' "I have prayed the prayer but did I really mean it, I mean, did I really really mean it? Maybe I think I am in, but I am really not."
I could not have said this until I actually had a Born Again experience, but I say it now from my heart and from a humble confidence that I never knew before: there is no in or out. There is neither in nor out, Jew nor Gentile, gay nor straight, slave nor free, Calvinist nor Process Theologian, male nor female, orthodox nor heretic. Its just us. Its just this life. Its just how we choose to treat each other right now. And its never too late to follow the Christ path out of Pharisaical religion into radical love. Grace and Peace to you friends - CB
Assuming a multiverse of all possible world's for which my conscious traverse (pilgrimage) is determined by "choice".
These choices instantiate the divergence of timelines.
Logical possibilities:
1. Only one perfect universe where no entropy exists is possible.(Best of all possible world ruled by the summum bonnam apriori, The rule by which all other universes must be measured. kingdom of God of heaven. Eden, paradise.)
That universe is necessary for the maintenance of all other universes contingent.
2.For all contingent universes entropy is present (which in the moral argument is called evil, and instantiated by wrong choice, to miss the bullseye, the perfect anthropic model or constraint.)
3.To presume free will is to presume the ability to either instantiate infinitely many right choices to travel a timeline to the perfect universe.
4.Being in a universe in which entropy exists is to be in a universe where all choices are confined to entropy, leading to all possible choices decaying into a heat death. My free will must end in sin and death.
5.A necessary being in that necessary universe could freely choose without entropy to lead my time line to the perfect universe, and that is necessarily only his choice, such as he finds necessarily good since it is by his own necessity that it is accomplished.
6.The only being qualified to travel a perfect time line from complete entropy in that possible universe would of necessity be the necessary being. It was necessary for Him to descend from the necessary universe (heaven), to the universe of infinite entropy (hell), to sustain all possible universes which he maintained.
7.If He chose, I might be counted by Him as a witness in some possible universe (that is to worship Glorify God eternally), for this contingency could perfectly compliment His necessity).
I choose not to choose, surrender this idea of free will which is my reasonable service, which is to receive the grace of gratitude, humility, and worship in the absolute, necessarily for the one necessary being whom I know (am conscious of, or awakened to)is Jesus of Nazareth.
Jamey Massengale Glad you find ruminating about multiverses and free will to be a stimulating thing. I don’t think my comment about the podcast and my spiritual journey was the appropriate place to share it. Maybe find some CZcams channels about multiverses, free will, and determinism.
This is my story too. There DOES have to be a drastic, personal encounter with God for “it” to be real. Churches must stop trying to force this to happen ASAP in kids’ lives! It’s so so so damaging. Instead, a genuine pursuit of truth should be the teaching! Thank you for taking the time to write your story. I was a full time ministry church/staff kid, knew all the scriptures, gave my life to Christ at 9, surrendered to lordship at 14, prayed at altars with kids, felt like a filthy sinner 24/7 and DIDNT MEET CHRIST UNTIL 31!
Beautiful.
I grew up in a Christian home but as a teenager I knew I was a sinner and asked God to forgive me and for Jesus to come into my life. I knew something was different so I totally agree that is the foundation.
Assuming a multiverse of all possible world's for which my conscious traverse (pilgrimage) is determined by "choice".
These choices instantiate the divergence of timelines.
Logical possibilities:
1. Only one perfect universe where no entropy exists is possible.(Best of all possible world ruled by the summum bonnam apriori, The rule by which all other universes must be measured. kingdom of God of heaven. Eden, paradise.)
That universe is necessary for the maintenance of all other universes contingent.
2.For all contingent universes entropy is present (which in the moral argument is called evil, and instantiated by wrong choice, to miss the bullseye, the perfect anthropic model or constraint.)
3.To presume free will is to presume the ability to either instantiate infinitely many right choices to travel a timeline to the perfect universe.
4.Being in a universe in which entropy exists is to be in a universe where all choices are confined to entropy, leading to all possible choices decaying into a heat death. My free will must end in sin and death.
5.A necessary being in that necessary universe could freely choose without entropy to lead my time line to the perfect universe, and that is necessarily only his choice, such as he finds necessarily good since it is by his own necessity that it is accomplished.
6.The only being qualified to travel a perfect time line from complete entropy in that possible universe would of necessity be the necessary being. It was necessary for Him to descend from the necessary universe (heaven), to the universe of infinite entropy (hell), to sustain all possible universes which he maintained.
7.If He chose, I might be counted by Him as a witness in some possible universe (that is to worship Glorify God eternally), for this contingency could perfectly compliment His necessity).
I choose not to choose, surrender this idea of free will which is my reasonable service, which is to receive the grace of gratitude, humility, and worship in the absolute, necessarily for the one necessary being whom I know (am conscious of, or awakened to)is Jesus of Nazareth.
I honestly find it really disappointing how many Christians after listening to story after story of people honestly expressing their process of deconstruction, people who dedicated their time, their life, their blood sweat and tears to the faith. And then say “they were never really Christian”. I get that it feels nice to have an easy answer to a tough question. But you’re never going to get anywhere with this attitude.
I have listened to so many TRUE believers speak of their faith on youtube. But what makes Christianity so different is knowing God & being able to speak in such a way to convince others that He is right there with you as you speak to them. That any research you do starts by asking Him knowing that He is your #1 SOURCE for wisdom! He should NEVER EVER be ignored or treated as IF He's not there with you as your EVERYTHING & EVERYONE should be able to see just how DEPENDANT You are on Him!
Ask a mature Christian to tell you about Jesus & he or she should light up at the opportunity. In fact, you shouldn't even have to ask! A mature Christian should be "AWESTRUCK!"
I enjoyed this video Alisa. Thank you. I am enjoying learning about more thoughtful Christian. I guess my faith was a little too fluffy.
Here's a parable. There was a man who chose a woman to be his wife. He declared his eternal love for her. He assured her she would be provided for and loved. He also gave her a list of things he required from her, including her exclusive adoration and obedience. He even had his son murdered to prove his love for her. He gave her a choice to accept his love or accept eternal torment,...but she had free will, so the choice was up to her. Do you think this woman really had a choice?
Oh, I forgot the most important part, he convinced the woman she needed him because she was worthless without him, and only he could make her worthy .
Alisa and Sean, do you believe that Adam was the first man, as the Bible describes him to be? If yes, how do you square the Genesis accounts with what science has discovered?
Ken Ham's channel, "Answers in Genesis", has several videos on this very topic, as well as a variety of other questions regarding the scientific validity of the Bible (Noah's flood, age of Earth, Tower of Babel, etc.). I was actually just watching a fascinating video earlier today by one of their scientists making a case for a literal Adam and Eve backed by scientific evidence. Kent Hovind's channel is also a worthwhile resource to check out. I was introduced to his "Creation Seminar" video series for the first time several years ago, and it totally changed my perspective on the conundrum over Biblical creation vs Darwinian Evolution/Big Bang. Hope those prove to be as helpful to you as they have been to me.
Science is a method of analysing data. Scientists make discoveries. Scientists have bias. What sort of discoveries do you find most troubling?
From a Christian perspective, we are a sinners. From a secular perspective, our human nature is not perfect and we often struggle with this imperfection. From all perspectives, it's about dealing with unwanted emotions/thoughts while also attempting to maintain intellectual honesty. Christianity is complex and full of problems that many Christians continue to struggle with. Instead of acknowledging the problems, this video contains what I would consider straw man excuses for why people leave Christianity rather than sharing the real reasons people leave. It's one thing to hang on to a belief out of uncertainty but quite another to hold on to a belief that is contrary to a reality that you are observing. The existence of a God is something that can fall into uncertainty but religions created by humans will have multiple reasons to support fallibility of those religions. I agree that uncertainty is fine, but confidence or trust is something that should be earned and even if you blindly grant confidence/trust there can be things that make you question that blind trust which is where people deconstruct their belief only to lose the trust they once had and leave.
The absolute weakest stance ever... to say that YOU doubt that SOMEONE ELSE who has left the faith... was 'ever REALLY in the faith'. Especially when there are so many people whose story is absolutely filled with every indication of them being completely given over to their faith prior to their deconstruction INCLUDING a clear recognition and conviction of their own 'sinfulness' (which, btw, only exists inside the faith culture and nowhere else in society). To wipe their experience away just because the reasons they give escape you personally is a testament to your personal disconnection with reality... on so many levels. Personally, I am so extremely glad to no longer feel the need to have these conversations. If God exists, he doesn't need me to struggle to make him any more real than he already is. I don't need to chase him any more, he certainly doesn't seem to chase me. And if he wants to be real in my life, then come and be real - how much more real can I make him in my brain or heart if he doesn't really try himself? It was all fantasy then. It's still fantasy now. Faith is actively believing in what you want to be real and then telling yourself it's real over and over even when you have no evidence at all. Not a lot of substance in that. The community and belonging sure feels good - but ultimately, when you dig through the layers, it all reveals itself for what it is... a psychological construct wrapped inside a culture, wrapped inside traditions, wrapped inside structures, wrapped inside a business-model, wrapped inside people's good intentions, egos and income streams. All as empty as a tomb that probably had no one in it to start with.
Have you actually investigated the claims of Christianity? Individuals like Lee Strobel, J Warner Wallace, and others have... and they were surprised.
"which, btw, only exists inside the faith culture and nowhere else in society"
Can you demonstrate how you believe this statement about knowing one's sinfulness to be accurate? People coming to Christ in adulthood typically do so because they've recognized something about themselves that they certainly didn't learn in a church.
"Faith is actively believing in what you want to be real and then telling yourself it's real over and over even when you have no evidence at all."
Introspectively, there is a notable part of my being that wants nothing more than to dismiss the truth of my own flawed existence, the claims of Christ, and, subsequently, the teachings of the church. Christianity propped up as a self-asserted lie in my own life is of no use to me. Sure, it's nonetheless possible that one could deceive themselves about something evidently untrue that they merely want, but it would be void of the byproducts of truth and evidence: spiritual comfort, hope, wisdom and the ability to guide faithfully. If those things - the very reasons I came to be a believer in the first place - cannot be had through the answers that Christianity provides, I would not continue to afflict my life with the constraints that come with pretending to fear a fake god.
I can run away from faith, but it is pointless for me if I'm just going to be left lying awake at night where I started - hopeless and hungry for answers about what I am supposed to be. The Christian answers to these questions are sufficient, and the evidence speaks for itself.
"how much more real can I make him in my brain or heart if he doesn't really try himself?"
The implication here is that God somehow isn't already self-evident. You're standing in the middle of an art studio with beautiful paintings stretched across every wall, with your eyes closed willfully and tightly, foolishly suggesting that you don't see the evidence for the Artist. God has done everything to make himself apparent to you, and you reject it willfully. Open your eyes and see the evidence for what it is.
Luke 16:
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
You cynically claim God to be "a psychological construct wrapped inside a culture, wrapped inside traditions, wrapped inside structures, wrapped inside a business-model, wrapped inside people's good intentions, egos and income streams. "
But you've just defined "The Truth" as it has ever existed inside pretty much any western institution, religious or otherwise. That you can find reasons to criticize the way truth is sometimes handled Christian sub-culture probably shouldn't be reason enough to throw it all away. I might suggest you think twice about that approach. Unpack the egos, the business model, the tradition, and look carefully at what's inside at the heart of it all, rather than throwing the whole thing away assuming that what is on the inside is the same as what is on the outside.
@@DC-ub6nq Yes. Christian for about 15 years. Strobel is not convincing. Neither are any of the other apologists and evangelists. I was in it. I believed it all. I went deeper. That ended quickly because there was no deeper. I was in it to find truth. I left because the faith and it’s supporting structures are flimsy, ultimately meaningless and that isn’t a foundation where truth exists.
@@bradmorris5797 Sinfulness doesn’t exist in secular culture - it is a religious construct. Sin is explained as those actions that separate us from god, god’s way is perfect, sin is imperfect, but if there is no god, there is no one who is perfect, so there is no perfect standard, so there is no ‘sinfulness’.
Christianity names and frames problems for those they are trying to convert, lucky for them, many people naturally crave answers to the BIG questions in life, the evangelist just so happens to have ALL those ‘answers’ that everyone wants, and they can also point out what ‘sin’ is and where it exists in you, they name the sin, then they name a savior who suffered for those sins and how he came to give us eternal life by taking on all our sins (even though he wasn’t sinful but ‘perfect’ ) this builds a false relationship to a ‘story’ about a savior / god. Ultimately, this is all that Christianity gives people, stories and promised answers to things that aren’t proven or even able to ever be proven. Next we’re told that by this savior’s design we’ll suffer forever if we don’t have our sin taken away, and since no one is thrilled about dying or suffering forever and only a jerk would denying someone who gave their life for our bad choices, we believe the stories and lies. They sound like someone cares. The ultimate forgiveness we are talked into ends up being something that never needed to exist before the hearing of the stories. The evangelist’s solution for us is to follow Christ - all we have to do is pray and ‘believe’ - it’s so easy - and the trap is set. Of course people want a right relationship with someone who loves them - people want answers- Jesus sounds like love + answers to everything + a good and eternal life ahead. Who could say no? The problem is that your god doesn’t exist, certainly not here, and there is no proof he does beyond this life either - thus there is no relationship, no sin, no punishment. It’s all a story that you have to ‘believe’ for it to be ‘true’. That’s not how reality works (at least not here - and we are here) That’s how fantasy works.
Evangelists tell lies, based on no evidence, only based on stories they themselves believed without evidence, so they manipulate the hearts of people and play on their most basic of wants and needs and emotions. It’s a con job. People get conned like this all the time - out of their money - their homes - their freedom... it’s not isolated to Christianity.
Having said all this, I don’t care much about commenting for additional hours on all the other things you mentioned.
Your god claim is unfalsifiable.
Therefore it cannot be proven.
Because you feel like it’s true or you believe that no one else (including you) can explain the origins of everything - then the ONLY conclusion that any ‘rational’ human could come away with is “god”. But that’s not true at all - it is a built in bias. It’s not rational. Your god, if he exists has made a fool of his followers by making sure no one can actually detect him… and he never seems to return like he supposedly promised… and his ‘truth’ and ‘word’ has spawned so much confusion and division among even his own followers that you all look like you’re believing in a lie, or at least you just can’t tell what truth is actually the truth. Kind of sloppy thing to have to deal with if a perfect god wanted everyone to understand him and be saved. It’s my position that you have believed in lies.
Which is exactly what I realized I was doing after years being a Christian - so I stopped believing the lie. That’s what people do if they want to be honest, no matter how difficult it is or how many nights you have trouble sleeping. That phase was temporary - god, if he ever existed in the ‘relationship’ I thought we had, never pursued me. Never brought someone into my life that had the ability to re-evangelize me. My life is now just my life… I face reality without fear because it is not against me… it’s just a process… and while I am still alive, I am grateful to be here - life is precious - life is real.
Until god decides to peek out from behind his invisibility cloak or we come up with a device that suddenly detects him… I will choose to remain an unbeliever. Bad things begin to happen when people believe lies and refuse to admit that they believe lies.
Alisa, you are an amazing woman and inspiring. A truly beautiful person. God bless.
I left the faith because frankly it doesn't hold up well against reason and logic. There is not an apologist alive who can argue me down on that fact, I promise you. I grew up Christian and spent over 4 decades reading the Bible and begging God to show himself and was rewarded with silence. I finally realized it is all bullshit.
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍 Great interview!!!!! I love your ministriy and the messages you share. God bless
I too would hang my hat on Zacharias. Until I realize the scandal that was exposed after his death. I can’t fly with that.
Yes, one of the most admired and followed apologists was revealed for what he really was.... a great actor in sheep's clothing. The church is FILLED with great actors.
unfortunately the whole Zacharias scandle provoques the question how many other people there are like him out there who have not been detected. Not that I am proposing a witch hunt either by the police or the church. Witch hunts are based on vendictive emotion and never work.
Will there be an audiobook version of “Another Gospel”?
Yes Janette and I recorded the voice. It will come out on Oct. 6th as well....
Alisa Childers AWESOME, thanks!
Assuming a multiverse of all possible world's for which my conscious traverse (pilgrimage) is determined by "choice".
These choices instantiate the divergence of timelines.
Logical possibilities:
1. Only one perfect universe where no entropy exists is possible.(Best of all possible world ruled by the summum bonnam apriori, The rule by which all other universes must be measured. kingdom of God of heaven. Eden, paradise.)
That universe is necessary for the maintenance of all other universes contingent.
2.For all contingent universes entropy is present (which in the moral argument is called evil, and instantiated by wrong choice, to miss the bullseye, the perfect anthropic model or constraint.)
3.To presume free will is to presume the ability to either instantiate infinitely many right choices to travel a timeline to the perfect universe.
4.Being in a universe in which entropy exists is to be in a universe where all choices are confined to entropy, leading to all possible choices decaying into a heat death. My free will must end in sin and death.
5.A necessary being in that necessary universe could freely choose without entropy to lead my time line to the perfect universe, and that is necessarily only his choice, such as he finds necessarily good since it is by his own necessity that it is accomplished.
6.The only being qualified to travel a perfect time line from complete entropy in that possible universe would of necessity be the necessary being. It was necessary for Him to descend from the necessary universe (heaven), to the universe of infinite entropy (hell), to sustain all possible universes which he maintained.
7.If He chose, I might be counted by Him as a witness in some possible universe (that is to worship Glorify God eternally), for this contingency could perfectly compliment His necessity).
I choose not to choose, surrender this idea of free will which is my reasonable service, which is to receive the grace of gratitude, humility, and worship in the absolute, necessarily for the one necessary being whom I know (am conscious of, or awakened to)is Jesus of Nazareth.
I got to get that one too.
@@jameymassengale5665I read your message, and to be honest, got lost in the "necessary, necessarily" and all the others. But, praise God that He found a way to relate and be understood by you.. 😊
It's easy to dismiss those who have "bailed out" as selfish or superficial. My biggest problem is with the contradiction I see between the Gospel message and the way I have frequently seen believers disregard the suffering of others and l have been as guilty of this as anyone!
It is not the healthy who need a physician, but the sick. What you perceive as a contradiction is actually the gospel itself at work. The gospel is that Jesus died for hopeless sinners. Christians will always fail in some regards or another because we are deeply flawed. The tension between what we are and what we wish to be will always exist as long as we are on this side of eternity
It is called sin.
8:01 "This is true and I have good reason to believe this is true."
Former Christian turned agnostic atheist. I have neither experienced a demonstration nor came across any empirical evidence to prove a supernatural being exists. I've heard arguments, some interesting, but nothing irrefutable that would support a rather extraordinary claim. Though I admit, it is a non-zero possibility that a god exists.
I love the opening statement. What do you do when you are being persecuted ? When i talk with folks about being Christian, they talk about how it is so easy being a Christian. At that point my jaw literally drops. My typical response is - Do you constantly love your neighbour as you would love yourself ? It’s fun to watch a light go in their heads when they realize the high standards which we are expected to maintain. Not saying I’m perfect.
LOL-no one has to be perfect, but you think that people who don't want to be Christians just...are afraid of things being hard. WOW. Their Opening statements are absurd and laughable. I would love to have a conversation with either of them because the points they present in this video are not indicative of anyone I know in the deconstruction movement.
Sure my life was harder because of Christianity, but I never cared about it being harder-I cared about the fact that almost every Christian I knew was a self centered person, focused only on how well they could care about God rather than actually giving a damn about anyone around them. The churches response to the pandemic should tell you all you need to know about Christians caring about others. If Jesus is real, you certainly would not know him.
You have an intelligent guest in Sean McDowell. Thankyou for this articulate and affirming conversation Love to you and all siblings in Christ watching this
The fetishization of persecution in certain Christian circles are ridiculous. It seems some people are just incapable of understanding that there are other reasons for changing your mind than external pressure or being "hurt by the church"...
The internet is the reason I left religion after 47 years. The internet has exposed the historical issues and realities of how the Bible and the Christian faith was created and how it’s evolved. Religious scholars, that would never be allowed to speak at any Christian event, are free to present the factual history of how the Bible and Christian faith was created and has evolved.
The historical truth is nothing like what folks hear in church, but preachers are exposed to this information in seminaries and religious affiliated colleges but somehow can preach stuff they know isn’t true.
I completely agree. I’m really glad he said this. So many who leave the church and then talk about their time in it, describe only religious or emotional things. I’ve never heard anyone of these people talk about truly having that moment with God, where He reveals to them their sinfulness, and describe that desperation for His help and salvation.
Well I watched half of this and I don’t think it answers your own question. I don’t get that you really did any research on this topic…. You just keep rambling on about yourselves.
In my experience, I found that the Construction of the foundation of my faith was faulty : because I decided, i chose , in effect, I Did it, I Finished Jesus' work...then i could undo it.
That wasnt a true foundation and i didnt learn the doctrines of God's Self- revelation. So my emotional experience with God was True but my understanding was faulty so i wandered away for years before i returned to Faith.
It was then that the doctrines of Faith in the Bible were revealed to a correct understanding that informed my earlier experience.
So now i m secure in my understanding and my experience. They affirm each other consistently.
So important to point people to the resurrection but I also believe it is important to realize Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to be our teacher guiding us into all truth, and empowering us to be effective witnesses. Although the disciples were already born again, they needed a deeper relationship with the Holy Spirit which they received on the day of Pentecost. He is also called our Comforter as well as convicting us of sin. Many people make a mental or emotional ascent to God but until they are truly born of the Spirit they remain outside of God's kingdom. God can even use people to do His bidding but when they stand before Him saying, didn't we do miracles in your name He will say, depart from Me for I NEVER knew you! YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN!
Great..two of my favourite apologists together. This should be good.
Assuming a multiverse of all possible world's for which my conscious traverse (pilgrimage) is determined by "choice".
These choices instantiate the divergence of timelines.
Logical possibilities:
1. Only one perfect universe where no entropy exists is possible.(Best of all possible world ruled by the summum bonnam apriori, The rule by which all other universes must be measured. kingdom of God of heaven. Eden, paradise.)
That universe is necessary for the maintenance of all other universes contingent.
2.For all contingent universes entropy is present (which in the moral argument is called evil, and instantiated by wrong choice, to miss the bullseye, the perfect anthropic model or constraint.)
3.To presume free will is to presume the ability to either instantiate infinitely many right choices to travel a timeline to the perfect universe.
4.Being in a universe in which entropy exists is to be in a universe where all choices are confined to entropy, leading to all possible choices decaying into a heat death. My free will must end in sin and death.
5.A necessary being in that necessary universe could freely choose without entropy to lead my time line to the perfect universe, and that is necessarily only his choice, such as he finds necessarily good since it is by his own necessity that it is accomplished.
6.The only being qualified to travel a perfect time line from complete entropy in that possible universe would of necessity be the necessary being. It was necessary for Him to descend from the necessary universe (heaven), to the universe of infinite entropy (hell), to sustain all possible universes which he maintained.
7.If He chose, I might be counted by Him as a witness in some possible universe (that is to worship Glorify God eternally), for this contingency could perfectly compliment His necessity).
I choose not to choose, surrender this idea of free will which is my reasonable service, which is to receive the grace of gratitude, humility, and worship in the absolute, necessarily for the one necessary being whom I know (am conscious of, or awakened to)is Jesus of Nazareth.
Wow, that moment when he says it's "God's kindness that leads to repentance" brought tears to my eyes. Thinking of my Dad, and our relationship, has reminded me that I need to reach out and love him, and tell him that he's forgiven in God, and he's forgiven from me. On another note, that mingling of the two, intellectual and experiential is so thought-provoking that it can explain so many of my friends either falling away or deconstructing as a result.
Protestants like to mock Catholics for going to confession. But as a human being doing the self examination, owning your sins out loud to another person and resolving repent is very powerful. I know a lot of people that go through life with "Jesus paid it all..." and never own their shit. And nothing changes. And they are terrible witnesses.
This was excellent. I have found that the rock of unrealistic expectation, either in the way a person is to act or the benefits "promises made", is the biggest stone that is used to dismantle a persons belief.
At 11:45 you claim that you believe that christianity is true because the the thought that it wasn't made you depressed. You think christianity answers the question of sin, and you would be sad if it wasn't true. Just because it offers "an" answer, doesn't mean it's the correct, accurate, or true answer. McDowell claims that people who deconvert have never realized how "sinful" they are and then offers some anecdote about some preacher who wasn't aware enough of his sinful nature to cry out for god's grace. Well let me offer you another anecdote. I remember being told as a child that I would spend all of eternity burning in torment if I died with sin on my soul. I cried out multiple times a day for god to forgive me for the next 20+ years of my life. I never felt any grace or comfort, I was still filled with fear. It wasn't until I allowed myself to question the evidence of the religion with the permission to allow myself to admit it to myself if I couldn't justify it (without gaslighting myself to backdown and hedge my bets to believe out of fear). This entire conversation is two ostriches with their heads in the sand, patting each other on the back and is a load of crap
Christianity is the only religion that has a solution for the sin problem that comes from outside the individual. It’s the singular worldview that actually corresponds with the reality we see around us.
I’m sorry that you had the repentance experiences you had, but what Alisa is discussing is definitely true. I grew up in a Christian family and several of my sibling have hit a crossroads in their faith mainly because they never actually understood the Gospel, and now they have gone headfirst into progressivism and are drifting further and further from the faith.
@@whodeytko you may want to read his/her comment again
@@iwasjustintrance What exactly did I miss here?
@@whodeytko It seems you assume there's a "sin problem" and then that Christianity solves it and therefore Christianity is true. Or maybe I'm reading your comment incorrectly - you let me know.
@@iwasjustintrance I don't know about you, but when I look out at the world, and all the evil that exists (all propagated by men and women), and then take a look at my own ideas, thoughts, and actions it's nearly impossible to not come to the conclusion that we (the world) have a sin problem. I would argue that it is one of the single most verifiable facts in existence. Humans, collectively, have a longing for a utopia that they never have been able achieve. Why do you suppose that is? Do you really believe that humanity doesn't have a sin/evil problem?
Sad how the forgotten generation (generation x) still is completely ignored. Instead it’s only about reaching the youth, just like what the world focuses all it’s efforts on as well.
Thank you Alisa
Sounds like they are saying that you must have this incredibly deep and proud experience of being a sinner before being saved. How can any Christian know if their feelings are big enough?
I don’t get the sense of either participant understanding deconstruction or grappling meaningfully with real issues.
Why not?
Indeed, I wish they had people on here who are deconstructing or deconstructed who can speak about deconstruction from a truly knowing, understanding place.
I've tried to tell people at church that they need to teach a deep foundation of the faith.
They are just not interested. They do not want to hear it.
Expect more deconversion stories.
What makes you think teaching a deep foundation for the faith will keep people from walking away?
This is the one of the primary problems plaguing “the church”.
@@iwasjustintrance Every person in my own life who has walked away and every person who has walked way whose testimony I have listened to did not understand what they were rejecting and came from an environment that did not teach them.
Of course, you could teach someone correctly, and some would still walk away. I would be surprised ....and even alarmed....if that never happened.
In many ways, my decision to remain in the faith was an act of defiance against those who refused to teach me.
No true Scotsman
@@apfigueiredo79,
Have you thought it through? How much can you subtract from the Christian message before it is no longer the Christian message?
And how can anyone say that you have Jesus as Lord if he or she does not even care to find out what Jesus teaches? If these people don't want to know then there is a reason for their apathy and hostility.
And how many have to perish for the sake of our feel-good convenience?
God bless you sister
Assuming a multiverse of all possible world's for which my conscious traverse (pilgrimage) is determined by "choice".
These choices instantiate the divergence of timelines.
Logical possibilities:
1. Only one perfect universe where no entropy exists is possible.(Best of all possible world ruled by the summum bonnam apriori, The rule by which all other universes must be measured. kingdom of God of heaven. Eden, paradise.)
That universe is necessary for the maintenance of all other universes contingent.
2.For all contingent universes entropy is present (which in the moral argument is called evil, and instantiated by wrong choice, to miss the bullseye, the perfect anthropic model or constraint.)
3.To presume free will is to presume the ability to either instantiate infinitely many right choices to travel a timeline to the perfect universe.
4.Being in a universe in which entropy exists is to be in a universe where all choices are confined to entropy, leading to all possible choices decaying into a heat death. My free will must end in sin and death.
5.A necessary being in that necessary universe could freely choose without entropy to lead my time line to the perfect universe, and that is necessarily only his choice, such as he finds necessarily good since it is by his own necessity that it is accomplished.
6.The only being qualified to travel a perfect time line from complete entropy in that possible universe would of necessity be the necessary being. It was necessary for Him to descend from the necessary universe (heaven), to the universe of infinite entropy (hell), to sustain all possible universes which he maintained.
7.If He chose, I might be counted by Him as a witness in some possible universe (that is to worship Glorify God eternally), for this contingency could perfectly compliment His necessity).
I choose not to choose, surrender this idea of free will which is my reasonable service, which is to receive the grace of gratitude, humility, and worship in the absolute, necessarily for the one necessary being whom I know (am conscious of, or awakened to)is Jesus of Nazareth.
I was raised by a Baptist preacher, went to Bible college, and was a devout believer until I was 31. I just realized in my 30s that I had no good reasons to keep on believing so I left the faith and am now an atheist.
This was very good. So much of this is the root of what’s happening today.
So many new age and anti-Christian comments below; encouraging if they actually listened to this exchange.
What's wrong with new age and anti‐Christian comments?
Perhaps because folks are having the courage to question why they have the beliefs they usually are raised with and come to realize that the evidence and logic are very weak. For those that wish to consider what arguments there are, I really recommend TheraminTrees, Paulogia, Genetically Modified Skeptic, and Cosmic Skeptic. The truth is not hurt by facts or critical questioning.
17:30. I too became born again at 27, and I prayed that I didn't want to be led astray, the Lord gave me the King James Bible and Answers In Genesis to lay the foundation which has innoculated me from many lies of this world. To Jesus be the glory both now and forever.
- Amen.
I am concerned about him stating “his truth “!! That’s CRT speak.
same here. tbere's only one truth.
So are you saying the justice God demands is a eternity of continuous torment for all that have committed the finite sin of not prescribing to a correct belief?
Studio 1225 Respectfully, the question doesn’t represent the true belief of Hell, although I do appreciate the question.
We all desire to see a world where no more tears exist, where no more suffering is there, a place where people are judged based on the content of their character and not the color of their skin. We call this place “heaven”... or more accurately when heaven and earth reunite and God’s kingdom is fully present. God’s kingdom is a place where God’s will is fully expressed. Only those who want God’s will here on earth will likely want God’s will for all eternity. Hell is where your will is done. God’s eternal kingdom is where His will is done. God respects your free will, and will give you over to it. Also, more than that he also judges evil and will pronounce judgment. It’s not that we don’t want God to judge sin... we really all do don’t we? We would serve a really horrible God if he continues to allow our current state of the world continue forever, but he refuses to do that. We all want to see the injustice of our world corrected. We just don’t want him to judge us! The reality is, theBible says God will do what is right and judge rightly. The odd thing is, God as his Son Jesus is willing to be our advocate lawyer in court and he’s the best lawyer there is. Yet we reject him saying we don’t really need a lawyer because we didn’t do anything wrong or whatever we did do wrong isn’t really that bad. However, if you leave your anger, porn addiction, and love for money unchecked for all of eternity, it really will become something monstrous. We all need to see the signs in our hearts now, and know one day God will be the judge. But it’s okay he sincerely wants to save us from that day and is offering the absolute best advocacy program for free... we just have to wake up and know we actually need it.
Lastly, for those who have never heard of Jesus, Romans chapter 2 indicates they will be judged based on what they did know. I don’t know specifically who is granted entrance into God’s kingdom but I do know God will do what is right.
Assuming a multiverse of all possible world's for which my conscious traverse (pilgrimage) is determined by "choice".
These choices instantiate the divergence of timelines.
Logical possibilities:
1. Only one perfect universe where no entropy exists is possible.(Best of all possible world ruled by the summum bonnam apriori, The rule by which all other universes must be measured. kingdom of God of heaven. Eden, paradise.)
That universe is necessary for the maintenance of all other universes contingent.
2.For all contingent universes entropy is present (which in the moral argument is called evil, and instantiated by wrong choice, to miss the bullseye, the perfect anthropic model or constraint.)
3.To presume free will is to presume the ability to either instantiate infinitely many right choices to travel a timeline to the perfect universe.
4.Being in a universe in which entropy exists is to be in a universe where all choices are confined to entropy, leading to all possible choices decaying into a heat death. My free will must end in sin and death.
5.A necessary being in that necessary universe could freely choose without entropy to lead my time line to the perfect universe, and that is necessarily only his choice, such as he finds necessarily good since it is by his own necessity that it is accomplished.
6.The only being qualified to travel a perfect time line from complete entropy in that possible universe would of necessity be the necessary being. It was necessary for Him to descend from the necessary universe (heaven), to the universe of infinite entropy (hell), to sustain all possible universes which he maintained.
7.If He chose, I might be counted by Him as a witness in some possible universe (that is to worship Glorify God eternally), for this contingency could perfectly compliment His necessity).
I choose not to choose, surrender this idea of free will which is my reasonable service, which is to receive the grace of gratitude, humility, and worship in the absolute, necessarily for the one necessary being whom I know (am conscious of, or awakened to)is Jesus of Nazareth.
@@brentporter986 Thanks for your thoughtful response.Something I have been wrestling with is when "religion" teaches that the final, never-ending state of human beings will be the most extremely segregated existence imaginable.Its members throughout history have inevitably felt justified to replicate that model in the here and now.I feel It is unavoidable for some of those who prescribe to that teaching to not replicate the injustice.
Studio 1225 you have me interested. What do you mean by segregation? Do you mean the segregation of the “good” from the “bad”? Such that in heaven there will be good people and in Hell bad people with this is simulated here on earth in churches? Or, are you referring to racism?
Thanks!
@@brentporter986 If God at the end of this life segregates people based on a religious belief that the "good" are those with correct belief or transaction -go to heaven and the "bad" are those with the incorrect belief are segregated from the "good".This sort of thinking inevitably produces an "us and them" situation which I believe is at the root of racism.
Alisa nailedit. Deconstructors refuse to accept that they and all people need a savior. Pride. Period. They do not want to be seen admitting that the people who have hurt them with legalism, shame,church culture weirdness, etc, are actually RIGHT. Church culture and churchianity has wounded these people and they want to throw the whole thing out. The verse that says anyone who causes one of these little ones to stumble it would be better that a millstone be wrapped around their neck is about these types of religious people. The seriously bad theology that these deconstructors have been subjected to is responsible for their apostasy. The people who were called to pastor them will be held accountable. The other option is that they were never on board to begin with - an emotional experience is NOT repentance. Until we REPENT and begin walking and living in the Spirit there is no evidence of salvation. As far as Bart Campolo goes, maybe if his dad wasn't preaching an ineffective social justice gospelthat is full of crap he would have fared better. Tony Campolo spoke at my Christian college in the 80s and all I heard was a lefty socialist using the Bible to promote Marxism. It's no wonder his kid thinks Christianity is a joke.
We used to have a saying, “God doesn’t have any grandchildren “. Far too often believers raise their children in the church and expect them to become believers because we are. If their faith is just based in our experience then they are not believers, they just believe (if that makes sense). They believe until they don’t, for what ever reason. They need to come to Christ on their own, not that we don’t help point the way, but they need to find out why ‘they’ need a Savour. They must be born again, just as we needed to be. Just as everyone needs to be.
Maybe they live full lives and don't have some empty hole that they need to fill with Mumbo Jumbo. Why do 'you' have this hole?
If you only learn one new thing today then try and learn this;
1. Faith is simply pretending to know something that you don't actually know.
2. Anyone can believe anything using faith.
3. Faith is what people use when they have no evidence.
4. All religions use faith which demonstrates that it is invalid.
5. Faith is not a pathway to the truth.
6. You should not be proud of your faith you should be ashamed that you cannot backup your claims with any evidence.
@@sulas548 Humm, very interesting points. Tell me, why do you believe these things about faith?
@@6134219331 Belief is the acceptance of something without evidence so I do not 'believe' those points, I accept them as logically valid.
If ten people all tell you that they use faith to justify their beliefs and all ten beliefs are mutually exclusive and contradictory then it can be logically inferred that either nine are mistaken and one is correct or more likely that all ten are wrong.
Now of course everyone of them will just say "I am the one who is correct and it is the others who are wrong" but that is just wishful thinking if all they have to back up that claim is just faith.
If Christians 'actually' had the option between hard evidence or blind faith do you think they would 'choose' the faith option?
The Bible promotes faith as a virtue but if you look at the book as a fictitious piece of propaganda then that is 'exactly' what you would expect a dishonest writer to write, it would just be part of the con.
Do 'you' think that faith is a valid pathway to determining whether something that you believe to be true is actually, factually and objectively true?
If your answer is yes then why do you think that?
So what I think I hear you saying is that you believe that there is absolutely no evidence or proof that Christianity is true. What evidence do you have that it is not?
@@6134219331 I have a pet dragon his name is Eric and he lives in my garage. If you say that you don't believe me then what evidence do you have that I don't have a dragon? Can you see how absurd that is?
What evidence do you have that Odin, Zeus and Ra etc. etc. etc. are not real?
It is not possible to prove a negative.
If you are a Christian and you assert that your god is real then it is entirely incumbent on YOU to provide the evidence that he is real. Do you have any?
If I say that your god definitely does not exist then that is a statement of fact that I would need to back up but all say is that I have seen no evidence for your god or any of the other 10,000 or so gods that have been worshipped by mankind throughout history.
Can you tell me the exact method that you personally used to establish that Christianity is true?