Lutheran View of the Sign of the Cross and Prayer to the Saints
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- čas přidán 9. 10. 2019
- #stopandgotheology
Seize the time, the traffic is evil.
Pastor Wolfmueller responds to your thoughts and questions as he weaves his way through Austin traffic. We're all in this mess together.
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Music: DJ Quads "Motivation"
Here are the links:
Augsburg Confession XXI: Worship of the Saints: bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article21
Apology of the Augsburg Confession XXI: Invocation of the Saints: bookofconcord.org/defense_20_saints.php
Smalcald, Invocation of the Saints: bookofconcord.org/smalcald.php#invocationofsaints
Our Pastor Kieth Ringers from St. Mark's Lutheran in Elberta, Al is giving the message at Luther's home Church the next 2 weeks.. Wittenberg, Germany,
Thanks for reminding (or instructing) what is held in the Lutheran confessions. As a LutheranNewb...most helpful.
Turtullian became a heretic later
What do you think of the Episcopal church?
Thank you,Pastor.
Crossing oneself is not a superstitious display but an act of Comforting oneself in adversity so that we remind ourselves that our soul is Protected.
I would agree wholeheartedly. While I see how it could be perceived as superstitious, I would stress the idea of the Armor of God from Paul. A reminder that you hold the ultimate protection of the Word of God
Like anything it can be used superstitiously, not that is is always used superstitiously. Eating food isn’t bad but some eat too much and some eat too much little. If you eat the correct amount it doesn’t mean others do or don’t.
My family has a tradition of saying a quick prayer for someone in need and crossing ourselves when we see an ambulance or fire truck running lights and sirens (good thing we live in a rural area, work made me go to a city for a week and it was too much).
I believe the argument comes in when someone is crossing himself as a matter of course, automatically, without a thought to its meaning. Interestingly the not walking under ladders superstition was also started by Christian as they conflated the Trinity with the number 3, and the number 3 with triangles, and then by walking through a triangle you were interjecting yourself in the Trinity and that’s why the hammer left on the top rung fell on you.
The concern is that it can turn from Good, to ok, then to superstition until the meaning behind it gets lost for some and what’s left is just a motion.
Recently I heard someone in an area where there is no LCMS that was going to an ELCA “church,” because they always went to church. Now there is a woman “pastor,” who teaches blasphemy and heresy so in my opinion it isn’t a church, more like a Unitarian temple of Ba’al disguised as a church. The guy in question then isn’t being nourished by the word, isn’t in fellowship with a true Christian church body, so for him “going to church,” has become a superstition where he goes to a place out of habit or in fear of something bad happening even though the teachings are detrimental to the Christian faith. That doesn’t make church attendance in general superstition, it just means that going to a church that isn’t a church, to have fellowship with non-Christian Christians, and learn false teachings from a pastor that isn’t a pastor is a superstitious activity.
I love the way you explained the difference between Lutherans and the Radical Reformers: for the former, you remove tradition if it contradicts scripture. For the latter, you remove tradition if it's not in the scripture.
What the Lutheran reformers meant by "sola scriptura" (scripture alone) is often misunderstood as "only scripture and nothing but scripture." In other words, if it's not explicitly in the Bible then we reject it. I think a better explanation of the Lutheran view is that if tradition and scripture are in opposition to each other, then scripture alone is to be the final authority.
I'm pretty happy we use the Sign of The Cross. After 50 years RC, I wasn't breaking that habit! 😅
YESSSS! I couldn’t leave my Eastern Orthodox crossing custom, either. 😊
Converted from Catholicism and I still do it. My pastor does it when he prays at home privately and several people in my congregation do it during mass. I forced myself to stop doing it at the start until I discussed it with my pastor and he agrees with the video above
Being raised Baptist, making the sign of the cross felt a little odd at first but I can't imagine not doing it now.
@@theodosios2615 wow, really? Cool beans.
@@CarolineJoyAmico But it's nowhere in the new testament
Thank you for this. I'm one of the very small handful of people who does the sign of the cross at my church. I am especially comfortable since 2 of our 4 pastors mentioned Luther himself advocating for the use of it.
Watching this in 2021 as a former member of an evangelical congregation. My view about congregations that reject church traditions completely is that they tend to come up with NEW traditions of their own to accommodate their pastoral practices. Some will reject celebrating Christmas but host a mega bash for the pastor's birthday. Or say, reject the sign of the cross, but hold a concert on Sunday evening with performances that would make Beyonce blush. Some of these congregations even conduct services out of the controversial message translation of the bible. I do not know if observing this makes me critical or terribly judgemental...but the irony of it cannot be ignored. 🤷🏽♀️🤷🏽♀️🤷🏽♀️
What's a evangelical congregation? I'm not religious but I still want to educate myself on what other people devote their lives to.
Good observation 👍
@@C4_stephen Evangelicals are Christians who believe the gospel (The Evangelion i.e. The Good News.) That one can only be saved by putting faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God, was born of the virgin Mary, lived a perfect life, died for our sins on the cross, was buried, and resurrected can be saved from eternal Hellfire. They don't believe in any works being necessary for Salvation like the Roman Catholics do.
From my understand Lutherans who take the scriptures seriously are Evangelicals, along with non-denominational Christians, Baptists, and others who also believe in those essentials of the faith. But Lutherans tend to hold onto some of the more ancient traditions that are not explicitly detailed in Scripture, but don't necessarily contradict scripture.
When Kathy12Ray mentioned Evangelicals, she's more referring to Evangelicals who are more wary of expressing those traditions. Which I can understand and relate to, cause you can accidentally conflate their importance. But on the flip side, you do see some of those types of Evangelicals embracing new traditions, and ones which seem (and sometimes can be) more or less sacrilegious.
I hope that helps. My apologies if the comment is kind of long.
P.S. Like many old terms that people throw around. People can and do easily misuse them. There's a denomination called the ELCA or the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, who actually are not Evangelical, they don't take the faith and the bible seriously. I'm not a Lutheran myself, but Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod are definitely better churches, and the people seem to have a solid grasp on the gospel.
God Bless and Thanks!
@@rangefinderz5135 You also have Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
So I think it is unfair to criticize not taking James 2 seriously without even mentioning Ephesians 2:8-9. There has to be a way where Ephesians 2:8-9 and James 2 are harmonized. I sincerely believe it's with faith alone in Christ being what saves you. But a real faith will mean a born again Christian, and God will start working change in that Christian's life. Including good works.
@@rangefinderz5135 I've changed my mind on the Lord's supper personally within time. Also, Lutheran's believe in the Lord's Supper literally containing Christ's physical presence.
What does "not of works" mean in Ephesians?
I don't see this as me trying to fit something within sola doctrine, but I see it as something in the bible that needs to be harmonized with James 2.
Not all sola fide protestants believe in once saved only saved.
@Bryan Wolfmueller thank you for answering my questions!!
Regarding praying to saints for their intercession, I would also quote John 16 (unless I'm understanding this passage incorrectly), beginning at verse 23: "23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full...26 In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God." If Jesus Himself says that he won't ask the Father for us on our behalf, but that we should go directly to the Father because He loves us, then we have no business whatsoever asking other heavenly beings to intercede for us!
Then I guess we need to stop praying for one another then. Afterall, God doesnt hear prayer unless we go directly to him ourselves, right? Come one, Patrick...
@@JoshAlicea1229 That conclusion doesn't follow my statement logically. We are told in the Bible many times to pray for each other.
@@firstnamelastname1823 so why wouldn't the saints who are present with God pray for their brothers in Communion?
That doesn’t mean what you think it does. It means your prayers will he considered as coming from Jesus, not “derp yada derp in Jesus name amen”. It means before you are covered in his blood, baptized in his NAME, you were asking in YOUR name as a sinner.
Saints are dead, when someone is dead these cannot pray or anything else; that's the reason why these saints prayers are pure necromancy and media, sins from which the Holy Ghost warned us... including about making images of things in heaven... etc. So the idea spoken about going directly to our heavenly father to ask for something it is true indeed and Jesus and the Holy Ghost play an important role in this: the Holy Ghost is your advocate sent by Jesus, and Jesus intercedes for you... he is the bridge the Almighty Father wanted...all for his immense love for us John 3.16... So praying to saintolatry it's also sin... Jesus has been on earth for many reasons... The Holy Ghost and the Almighty Father speaks volumes of severity, but Love, compassion and mercy even during pruning... these catholic preaches removes all these godly tributes...God is not an indifferent or wrathful thing he has been described so far... he is a just God infact. Go to buy gold and diamond, and jewels to Him! He is honest! Elijah did not need to pray to mariolatry intercession to pray to God. See how the Almighty Father blessed him... or David whilst he was a sinner... Regarding"sexual Revolution"... beware of fake prophets... God never changes, or reduces gospel for men traditions, neither he does for any kind of traditions. Remember my brothers and sisters, we are to hate sin, forgiving and owing our God his divine tributes, whilst we are just sinners NEEDING HIM for faith, grace, mercy and so on...not marry...
Well said good and faithful servant.
Great video. Thanks for the tour. It brought back memories. I lived in Austin for almost 30 years and sad to see it's become an even bigger cesspool. Glad I left when I did. Good to see the saints like you still keeping the faith.
Thanks for the drive through Austin brother! I miss that town so much. Peace be with you 🙏
Austin isn't the same as it used to be. I was born there in the early 60s and we left a few years ago because it was getting worse and worse.
Thank you so much for having the best and cheapest books! I'm on a fixed income so it really helps ☺️
Good answers. No promises, no command, and no example.
Praying with your hands
This one is going to my dear catholic friend. Thank you.
Pastor, I still miss your truck. I always find myself looking to see what you're hauling in back! A BBQ grill...it was always something. I love the little clips of Austin you add on the tail end.
It’s terrible that I have to watch a horrible yrm commercial on CZcams trying to “free us from the baggage of Christian theology”…right before I watch a video about Christian theology.
Thanks for the tour. I’ve been through Texas but not Austin. Getting back to this meaty dish you’ve served: thank you for these insights. Much to chew on and digest.
Thank you. A great video.
I do disagree with many things you say but overall your explanations are brilliant!
God Bless!
REVA.8:2 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Great informative video!
Thanks,I have been questioning that point.❤
Attending an Orthodox Church and loving this channel. Would be wonderful if we could be one church again.
The Lutherans didn't break away from the Orthodox church.
God bless you! As someone who is a member of the Orthodox Church I really appreciated your response. The way I see it is: if we can invoke the Saints then it is a helpful tool in our relationship with Christ, but it is not required, and it is CERTAINLY not meant to replace our relationship with the Lord. However, if it's not real then we still have the most important thing (or I should say person) our Lord Jesus Christ. !ll the best!
Help me with this.
It is required for the Orthodox to fully participate in Holy Liturgy. Holy Liturgy includes invocation of saints, especially Our Lady Theotokos. It is required for the Orthodox to practice the invocation of saints in Holy Liturgy.
@@Mygoalwogel Hello! Thanks for the question. Honestly, I don't know too much about if it is mandatory. You're right that invocation of the blessed virgin is used during the liturgy. However, I know during the divine liturgy that the majority is praying to the most Holy Trinity. I think when it comes to personal prayers it is not required. I'm sorry if that wasn't a whole answer. God bless you!
@@miropecovic3876 Thanks for answering to the best of your knowledge.
Don't you see the tangled mess your words make? Eastern orthodoxy takes pride in calling itself the one true, the oldest, the original. At best, your orthodoxy are like the laborers in the vineyard that were hired early in the day. Then angry when others hired in the afternoon are loved and paid the same.
The problem is that just like Paul said; as soon as Paul departed then the wolves came in and started to inject pagan traditions. Worshiping Mary and the saints is one example of your pagan tendencies.
What you are really saying is that Jesus was not enough and you do not trust in his work on the cross. So you ask random saints to intercede on your behalf. You are also indoctrinated to be blind to this and then to argue whenever anyone points this out to you. It is paganism and God is jealous.
Doesn't Nicea II anathemtize that? It certainly anathametized those who don't venerate icons, and even those who associate with those who don't venerate icons.
Thank you! I like the perspective of your church about tradition. It is more open-minded than other protestant churches. I would appreciate if you will go deeper into the subject in order to understand better your view.
I understand the meaning of The Sign of the Cross. I am of another faith. Using sign of the cross sure is a long tradition, but not in the scripture. If it helps us remind us of Christ, then it is good, but it doesn’t mean those who don’t do the Sign is not Christian.
@Pastor Bryan wolfmueller's are you talking with me?
@Pastor Bryan wolfmueller's i need to speak you soon
@Pastor Bryan wolfmueller's I wrote an e-mail to you. God bless you too.
Been there back in 80's , that place has really changed.
Love your videos. By the way, in your book A MARTYERS FAITH.. on page 194, paragraph 6, the word SOME is in the areas of SAME. "Paul had the blood of Jesus, you have the SOME blood. You may already be aware but I thought I'd point it out. Your book is awesome; a great book, thank you. God's peace be with you
Great explanation.
Greetings, discovering the LCMS and its theology. Looking forward to learning more. Subscribed. God bless you. In Christ
Thanks for the great work as always, Pastor Wolfmueller. I can share this video with my Evangelicostal friends, when they get triggered over the fact I cross myself frequently now.
Exact proof of old of sign of cross when where?
Acts 10:25-26
As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
I don't understand how the Roman Catholics read from that: Pray to Peter
In the German Translation its even more clear, there it says "Und betete ihn an" so basically that Cornelius prayed to him.
Because in the Bible it says Saints can hear our prayers
And because St. Peter is already in heaven we ask him (because he is closer to the Lord) to pass our prayers on, Saints have no power of their own
@@tristankramer4636 If GOD is with me all the time and he knows all, see's all, and hears all why do I need a Saint to pass on my prayers. Just asking ?
@@daniel-gimj6832 Because the truth is, when we sin we distance ourselves from God, especially when mortal sin. But the prayer of a righteous man is powerful (James 5:16) and we ask the Saints whom no longer sin and are with God to pray for us as we pray to God.
Very cool - I searched up Luther’s opinion of praying to saints and this video came up. I live in the Austin area. Very cool to see that you live in Austin.
Come visit St Paul's on Red River at 35th!
@Pastor Bryan wolfmueller's looks like this account has been hacked. Asking for money in Lagos is a tell tell sign of it.
re: writing a blog article. Starting a million things, but finishing none of them. My world. (lol)
Now I miss Austin.
As a former Catholic,what is the process for becoming Lutheran?
Find a confessional Lutheran Church. LCMS, AALC, WELS, ELDONA. You would be received into communion via the Rite of Confirmation, similar to Roman or Orthodox churches.
Your lecture is interesting, but do you think it wise to give it while driving? This is definitely an example of “distracted driving “ which is dangerous as it may lead to automobile accidents! You could talk in a parked car rather than talking in a car you’re driving! Please be safe Pastor and set a good example! The Lord be with you.
Wasn't 16:30 right around where the old Concordia campus used to be? I went there for 1 semester in 1983, and needless to say, the landscapes a bit. . . . Changed!
Concordia moved several years ago to 620, west of Anderson.
I always pray to all the saints and most especially to the Virgin Mary. I always believe, that they will intercede for me to Christ and to our God, the Father. I compare to like asking help from my parents, relatives and friends in my direst need, when I have nowhere to go, and I find nobody wanted to help me. Even after praying to Christ, I feel that I needed help urgently, these saints, especially the Virgin Mary... Christ certainly will not refuse her... will do everything to listen, understand my predicament and give me a helping hand in their own way. This is my take on the subject. The sign of the cross, is yes, it is like consecrating my whole body, soul and mind to Christ, who died on the cross, so no evil will dare to attack me and take my soul.
If people in heaven still have to be burdened by the goings on here on earth, then it’s really not “heaven” at all. They rest in the arms of Jesus now. Earth is earth. Heaven is heaven. Jesus is the only one who lives in both realms.
@@solosaloon1959: Spirits you mean... people who have move on to heaven.. I believe these spirits still connect to their loved ones on earth, especially to those they hold most dear to their hearts. Our bodies are just vessels of the spirits. Because of this, people who have a strong sense of emotions are able to feel the presence of other spirits even the presence of evil spirits.
@@solosaloon1959 If I were in heaven, I would want to help my loved ones on earth. Charity and the presence of God is what makes heaven what it is.
The bible makes it clear that the dead are in their grave, awaiting the day of resurrection.
Christ intercedes to God, no Mary in the equation.
As my earthly pilgrimage approaches the river’s edge, the ongoing controversies over these ecclesiastical externals greatly sadden me. ✔️
Excellent Video. I am from a Reformed background where we have both Elders and Deacons, each serves a different role. The area where I live does not have any Reformed Churches so my wife and I have been attending a LCMS which we really enjoy. I noticed that there are Elders and no Deacons. I was told that there are some LCMS churches that have Deacons, but they are mostly women. Can you explain why the Lutheran Churches do not have Deacons as an office in every congregation and if true, why are they women only? Thanks, Adam
real catholic, the reformed one. God bless pastor
Saints and crossings are foreign territory but I’m beginning to see that they are comforting measures that strengthen faith.
Crossing yourself is like the gospel in sign language. (Starting at the head)- God the Father, (down to the chest)- sent the Son to die for our sins, (up to the Right shoulder)- He ascended to the right hand of the Father, (to the Left shoulder)- and gathers us to eternal life through the Holy Spirit. It also acts as a blessing over people or things.
As for the veneration, (not worship) and praying to saints, in John 11:25-26, "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?" Therefore, people are alive in heaven. What are they doing? Praying, worshipping God. But they have entered eternity and, (like anyone alive on earth), can intercede for their friends. They are not prayed to, as someone might say, but they are asked to pray for a certain individual. It is just like asking a friend to pray TO Jesus FOR (so-n-so). Therefore, Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, but not the only intercessor.
As for venerating the saints, protestants do it all the time. We honor the lives of people like Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edward's, George Whitfield, as recent as R.C. Sproul ect... Nothing is ever said about that until you put the word, "saint" in front of them. But they are saints. People who have lived extraordinary Christian lives by the power of the Spirit of God.
I hope this clears things up.
Didnt Luthor add the word alone.. Justified by faith.. alone. Pretty sure the true translation simply says "Justified by faith."
"Lutherans did whatever they want". He says this in most of his videos, what a hoot.
But golly, he's RIGHT! 😂
M. ILLINOIS
Luther in his Large Catechism on the Second Commandment seems to encourage the “superstitious” act.
Lines 74-76: “Likewise the practice of children to cross themselves when anything monstrous or terrible is seen or heard, and to exclaim: "Lord God, protect us!" "Help, dear Lord Jesus!" etc. Thus, too, if any one meets with unexpected good fortune, however trivial, that he say: "God be praised and thanked; this God has bestowed on me!" etc., as formerly the children were accustomed to fast and pray to St. Nicholas and other saints. This would be more pleasing and acceptable to God than all monasticism and Carthusian sanctity. Behold, thus we might train our youth, in a childlike way and playfully in the fear and honor of God, so that the First and Second Commandments might be well observed and in constant practise, Then some good might take root, spring up and bear fruit, and men grow up whom an entire land might relish and enjoy.”
I recently watched a video on the Sign of the Cross. Interesting. As to why some cross themselves left to right and others, most notably the Orthodox, cross themselves right to left, I have no clue. But, there were a couple things that stood out. The Orthodox make the sign of the cross with their thumb, index and middle fingers together. This represents the Trinity. Another way is to use the index and middle fingers together. This represents the Divine and Human sides of Jesus.
Matthew 16:18-19 is the historical authority through Peter's successors and the Church reaction to historical threats afterwards (Heresies). The Sign of The Cross is biblical based on Matthew's verses and approved traditions (2nd Thessalonians 2:15).
Adiaphora. Do it if it helps. If it gets your knikers in a knot don't. Live and let live. Ave Maria Ora pro nobis.
I just watched your video on the veneration of the saints. My question is this: If I can ask you to pray for me as a member of the Church Militant, why , after you died, am I then unable to ask you to pray for me as a member of the Church Triumphant?
Bryan,
You explanation of why y'all have kept much of the tradition at ~6:20 helps shed some light for me. I like the view in many ways and certainly agree by that view it is not wrong (not that I think it is wrong in and of itself anyways). I do sometimes wonder if it is mostly valuable though (1 Corinthians 6:12). Do you find it is ever, or often, a stumbling block? And if so is it permissible in LCMS to do things differently?
This is a great strength, though there are very dangerous weaknesses and hazards, to congregationalist governance. How much autonomy is there in LCMS for style and liturgy within set doctrine and confession? Or is it outside the confession to change these much at all? Don't we see the churches in the New Testament acting as congregationalist but submitting to the Apostles?
Please correct me if I am wrong, but LCMS views some of even Apostolic-scriptural instruction to congregations as cultural normatives that do not necessarily apply today; e.g. the head coverings for women in church (1 Corinthians 11).
Your discussion of the saints praying for us at ~10:00 is something I have been mulling over lately. In Lewis' 'The Great Divorce' the saints are certainly ministering to lost souls. Remembering this book is allegorical, I have been wondering if this is somewhat representative of how the universal/catholic Church continues to love and serve. I.e. not ministering to the dead in a hell or purgatory type place, but helping us while physically alive yet spiritually dead to receive the gift of faith.
I do not have a decided conviction on this issue, but wonder how asking brethren that have gone to be with Jesus for prayers on our behalf is substantially different from Paul asking saints in Rome for prayers (Romans 15:30-32).
BTW, I think 'Great Divorce' is arguably Lewis' best book, and everyone should read it. The title works and is accurate, but in today's culture seems loaded in ways Lewis would not have intended; so everyone please do not be scared of it as I was before reading.
I pray this finds you in brotherly love and leads to mutual growth and further glory to our Lord God.
Thank you for your time and attention,
Adam
There are churches today that follow the Christian women’s headcovering. We miss a great blessing and opportunity to witness to others when we toss aside this biblical command.
Latin mass does that
Awesome video!!! I have one question, is there any historical evidence that shows infant Baptism was done in the early church? Thanks
Acts...this is for you and your children. Matthew "Go baptize all nations in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, to all nations. Where does "All Nations" exclude the infants? How does God's gift of placing His Name on you...regardless of your worth, valor, or decision...but His pure grace and gift to you resultant of attoning work of Christ on Calvary...prevent the little ones coming unto me as Christ puts it in Scripture. This whole Pelagianism/Semipelagianism decision theology...at the end of the day...proves to remain the will to command of sinful man in effort to dominate God...and this simply is rejection of Christ's promise. Either...salvation is gift based upon Jesus words...as He is God...or you know better...and you do not...quite frankly and to claim so is hubris and ignorance of Jesus words in scripture!
No, there isn't, that I know, and even in the fourth century there were different practices in this regard. St. Augustin, for example, was baptized as an adult even though his parents were Christian, because that was customary in his time. Still, I believe there are sound motives to baptize infants, deriving from scriptural passages and ancient traditions.
First, you're asking the question backward! Did you know there is only one woman we're specifically told was baptized in the New Testament? If she were omitted, would there be any question that women should be baptized?
The real question is why infants would NOT be baptized. After all, circumcision was performed on infants. Colossians 2 says, " In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead." People who take a rationalistic view of baptism seem never to think of what appears to be the most likely explanation for the fact that there is no specific New Testament mandate for infant baptism: that it never occurred to anyone NOT to baptize infants!
The earliest mentions of infant baptism in the Second Century say that the custom was received from the apostles. Tertullian raised the only objection to the custom before the Anabaptists of the Sixteenth Century: that it would be a good thing if the child was old enough to "take in something of the mystery!" It would appear that infant baptism was simply taken for granted in the Early Church.
In fact, we're repeatedly told in Acts that whole households were baptized. That would have included everybody in a household, including the slaves- and their children! If children were excluded, wouldn't that be mentioned, given the president of circumcision? Yet, nowhere is there any indication that baptism was reserved for adults.
If one takes the radically unbiblical view that baptism is not God's salvific act but a mere act of obedience, it becomes necessary to insist that one believe cognitively before baptism. But the New Testament consistently speaks of baptism is God's saving act. In fact, it is "of water and the Spirit" that Jesus says that we must be born again! Biblically, "born again" is a technical term for baptism!
Can infants not believe? Not cognitively, of course. But faith is fundamentally trusting. Few people are as capable of trust as infants. And of course, there is the problem that if infants were not capable of believing, they could not be saved! And Jesus would be wrong when he spoke in Matthew 18 of "these little ones who believe in me." The Greek word translated "little ones" means infants!
So again, you're asking the question backward. The most obvious explanation for the lack of a more specific mandate for infant baptism is that it never occurred to anybody to question it! It would have been natural to baptize infants, not to exclude them. The burden of proof is on those who try to turn logic inside out by making that silence evidence that the Early Church did NOT baptize infants. In fact, it took 1500 years for the idea that infant baptism was wrong to gain traction!
Augustine's MOTHER was a Christian. And there was a widespread heretical belief that one could not be forgiven one's sins after baptism. This seemed to have gained enough traction that many believers delayed their baptism until they were on their deathbed. Constantine is an example. In any case, the earliest mentions of infant baptism, in the Second Century, maintain that the custom was received from the apostles.
I know of no other specific objection to infant baptism except Tertullian's concern that the child is old enough to "take in something of the mystery" until the Sixteenth Century! In any case, given the precedent of infant circumcision, the silence of the New Testament on the question is best explained by infant baptism being taken for granted.
Augustine wished his mother had baptized him and wonders why God didn’t have him baptized earlier to wash away his sin. Don’t ya know?
Great video and explanation. What about prayers for the dead? Seems to be a big part of the Orthodox Church.
Use of the sign of the cross appears to be geographical in the US . I never saw it in my LCMS churches in WA, but see it in AZ with people from the East and Midwest and in churches that left ELCA .
Wolfmüller
So question growing up in a Lutheran church that I never saw people cross them self why do some people do what it looks like they are kissing their fingers?
I sure hope no one would fall for the post above. This is obviously NOT from Pastor Wolfmueller, but from a scammer.
Help me out.
I get "it it ain't prohibited keep doin it".
I get recognizing Jesus as the mediator and how asking saints to pray for us can dangerously broach idolization, however; it still is not explicitly stated that we ought not ask saints or mary to pray for us, though I will admit it is a dangerous line.
That being said, praying the rosary brings me great comfort and...I can't prove this... but sometimes I swear I feel a presence when doing it....kind of spooky actually.
If the saints and mary are praying for us... I still have a hard time seeing harm in it.
Also do Lutherans recognize the sightings of Mary such as at Fatima?
We do need to ask the saints to pray for us as well. With the angels praying for us and us asking the saints to intercede for us, this is called the communion of saints.
The Communion of Saints is that we are all a part (the body) of Christ’s Church, dead or alive. I am sure they are praying for the Church in Heaven but the Bible is very clear on praying to God alone. In the Bible prayer is always associated with worship to God or talking with God, so it’s a sticky situation to put yourself in when you pray to saints asking for things on their behalf. Check out Hebrews 7:24-25.
All believers are saints.
But only living saints can pray for you.
The dead are in the grave awaiting the resurrection.
You have been duped into believing that the disembodied consciousness of believers are currently in heaven
The bible teaches no such thing.
Why do you ignore clear scripture on this very subject, yet chose to make a theology out of passages written in symbolism, such as the parable of Lazarus, or John's VISION in Revelation?
Exactly the Bible teaches that the saints await the resurrection of their bodies. But it is not true that these are simply waiting in their graves, since certainly their souls and their bodies are separated (it is the way of understanding death that a Christian has; and this is how the Church has always understood it and this is how Luther explains it in his small catechism). The souls of the saints (believers) are with the Lord, we can see the best example in the Bible when the Lord speaks of Abraham, Jacob or Isaac, making it clear that they are alive, because God is not a God of the dead.
In the Transfiguration of our Lord, Moses and Elijah appear next to Him and even speak with Him; Peter, John and James see them too. To say that the examples of Lazarus or the book of Revelation itself are written in symbolism... I think it is rather your own interpretation or rather out of the original line of Faith... Revelation clearly shows that the souls that already they are in heaven, it is in a "continuous liturgy"; so to speak. References to this state can be found throughout the Scriptures, with the declaration of our Lord for example, which we find in the Gospel of Luke, in which our Lord says: "I tell you that in this way there will be more joy in heaven for a sinner who repents..." and of course without ignoring what our Lord said to the thief on the cross, who will be with Him today in paradise...
After having clarified this point, and starting above all from what our Lord said, all the saints (alive or asleep) are living saints, since God, once again and our Lord said so, is not a God of the dead, but of the living, can and are praying for all of us. And this is the mystical union of all the Saints that has already been explained correctly in another comment.
Soul in the Hebrew Scriptures
The Hebrew word most often translated into English as "soul" in the Bible is nephesh. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible succinctly defines this word as meaning "a breathing creature." When used in the Bible, nephesh does not mean a spirit entity or the spirit within a person. Rather, itusually means a physical, living, breathing creature. Occasionally it conveys a related meaning such as breath, life or person.
Surprising to many, this term nephesh is used torefer not just to human beings, but also to animals. For example, notice the account of the creation of sea life: "And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good" (Genesis 1:21, King James Version). The Hebrew word translated "creature" in this verse is nephesh. In the biblical account, these particular "souls," creatures of the sea, were made before the first human beings were formed and given life.
The term is also applied to birds (Genesis 1:30) and land animals, including cattle and "creeping" creatures such as reptiles and insects (Genesis 1:24). It follows, then, if we make an argument for man possessing an immortal soul, animals must also have an immortal soul, since the same Hebrew word is used of man and animal alike. Yet no biblical scholars would seriously make such claims for animals. The truth is, the term soul refers to any living creature, whether man or beast-not to some separate, living essence temporarily inhabiting the body.
In the Old Testament, man is referred to as a "soul" (Hebrew nephesh) more than 130 times. The first place we find nephesh in reference to mankind is in the second chapter of Genesis: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7, KJV).
The word translated "soul" in this verse is again the Hebrew word nephesh. Other translations of the Bible state that man became a living "being" or "person." This verse does not say that Adam had an immortal soul; rather it says that God breathed into Adam the "breath of life," and Adam became a living soul. At the end of his days, when the breath of life left Adam, he died and returned to dust.
The Old Testament plainly teaches that the soul dies. God told Adam and Eve, two "living souls," that they would "surely die" if they disobeyed Him (Genesis 2:17). God also told Adam that He had taken him from the dust of the earth and he would return to dust (Genesis 3:19).
Among the plainer statements in the Bible about what happens to the soul at death are Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:20. Both passages clearly state that "the soul who sins shall die." Again, the word for "soul" here is nephesh. In fact, this same word was even used of corpses-dead bodies (see Leviticus 22:4; Numbers 5:2; Numbers 6:11; Numbers 9:6-10).
Not only do all these scriptures show that the soul indeed can and does die, but the soul is identified as a physical being-not a separate spirit entity with existence independent of its physical host.
The Scriptures tell us that the dead have no consciousness: "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). They are not conscious in some other state or place (see "Jesus Christ and Biblical Writers Compare Death to Sleep").
The New Testament teaching
The New Testament contains several statements confirming that the wicked who refuse to repent will die-permanently. In Matthew 7:13-14, in exhorting His disciples to choose the way that leads to life, Jesus states that the end of those who do not choose life is destruction. He contrasts that path with the way of righteousness, telling us, "Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
Jesus, moreover, made it quite clear that utter destruction includes both "soul and body" (Matthew 10:28), the Greek word for "soul" (psyche or psuche) referring to physical, conscious existence (see "Do Some Bible Verses Teach We Have an Immortal Soul?" begining on page 8).
The apostle Paul also stated that the wicked will die. In Romans 6:20-21 he talks about those who were slaves of sin and says that for them "the end of those things is death." So those who are slaves of sin, who habitually commit sin, can perish completely. Yet many attempt to redefine death here and in other scriptural passages to mean merely separation from God.
Romans 6:23 is one of the best-known verses of the Bible. It plainly states, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Again, people will argue that death here means an eternal life of separation from God. Note, however, that death here is directly contrasted with eternal life. How, then, can death involve eternal existence through an immortal soul?
This verse plainly tells us two crucial truths. First, the punishment of the wicked is death, utter cessation of life, not a life of eternal suffering in another place (see also Philippians 3:18-19; 2 Thessalonians 1:9). Second, we do not already have eternal life through a supposed immortal soul. Eternal life is something God must give us through our Savior, Jesus the Messiah. In 1 Timothy 6:16 Paul also tells us that God alone has immortality.
Paul makes a similar statement in Galatians 6:8: "The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life" (NIV). This tells us what happens to unrepentant sinners. Eventually they will reap destruction, referring to wasting away and perishing, but those who repent and obey God will ultimately receive eternal life.
No conscious afterlife without a resurrection
So is man an immortal soul? No. Does he have an immortal soul? No. The Bible declares plainly that man is temporary, of the dust of the earth. There is no immortal quality about man at all-unless and until he receives it from God through a resurrection, which means being brought back to life in a body, raised from the dead as Jesus was.
The Bible clearly states that man puts on immortality at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:50-54), not at the end of his physical life. Until that time man has no more permanence than animals.
Nor does man have some spiritual soul with conscious awareness independent of the physical body. This has been proven time and time again when individuals have gone into comas for weeks, months and sometimes years at a time, only to emerge from that comatose state with no memory or recollection of the passage of time.
If one had a soul that existed independently of the human body, wouldn't that soul have some memory of remaining aware during the months or years the body was unconscious? That would be powerful and logical proof of the existence of an independent soul within the human body-yet no one has ever reported any such thing, in spite of thousands of such occurrences.
This fact likewise supports what the Bible teaches-that consciousness ceases at death. Only through a resurrection to life will consciousness return.
transfiguration is recorded for us in Matthew 17:1-13, Mark 9:2-13 and Luke 9:28-36. The preserved accounts tell us that Jesus took three of His disciples high on top of a mountain, where they saw Him "transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light" (Matthew 17:2). He then appeared to be having a conversation with Moses and Elijah. Luke records that they "appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem" (Luke 9:31).
Jesus told Peter, James and John to "tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead" (Matthew 17:9, emphasis added). So the disciples saw a vision of the future, not something that was actually happening in their time.
We can also see this in the phrase "appeared in glory." The apostle Paul writes that at death a Christian's body is "sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory" (1 Corinthians 15:43). When Christ's followers are resurrected at Christ's return to earth, they will be "raised in glory." However, Christ's resurrection to His glorified form made Him the "firstborn from the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Since Christ is first, it is impossible that Moses and Elijah were resurrected to glory before Christ. This helps show that the transfiguration was only a vision of things to come.
In a similar fashion to the book of Revelation, where the apostle John was given a vision of end-time events as if they were happening around him, the transfiguration gave Peter, James and John a partial vision of the Kingdom of God as if it were truly there.
Christ had promised this vision six to eight days prior in Luke 9:27, where He told a crowd (which included Peter, James and John) that "there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God" (see also Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1). The Kingdom of God is not yet here, but everyone in that 2,000-year-old crowd has "tasted death." Christ's statement was fulfilled when three of His apostles witnessed the transfiguration on the mount, a vision of that same Kingdom.
Hey Bryan! My boyfriend and I are seeking truth across various doctrines as we discern marriage and we’ve become more familiar with Lutheran view (not the Missouri synod, as I am a currently baptized as Catholic). Can you potentially make a video about why there are so many less books in the Protestant Bible than the Catholic one? I feel like every source I’ve gone to everyone has a different reason. We trust your answers.
Hey Claudia,
I'm curious if you found an answer to this, and also how your decernment goes? I actually just began dating a Catholic girl and I'm struggling a bit on how to proceed as these conversations and differences aren't easy to have, particularly when there is a relationship at stake. If you don't mind my asking when denomination is your boyfriend and given your background, what "convinced" you to start exploring other denominations/Biblical truth?
Hi there,
In 400 ad, St. Jerome put together the Latin Bible (referred to as the Vulgate), but he ran into some problems… Some of the books (the “extras” you’re referring to) in the OT were only available in Greek and not Hebrew. He wrestled with the fact that he would be making a translation from a translation (Greek into Latin) rather than from original into a translation (Hebrew into Latin). St. Jerome ended up making some prefaces to these books explaining just that. When the reformation occurred, the issue of Canon arose again when Luther was translating the Bible into German. Luther decided to do the same as Jerome (translate the Greek into German even though Greek wasn’t the original language of those books). However, Luther grouped them all together into one section (I can’t recall where… like end of the OT maybe?) and also included a preface that these books are a translation from a translation and doctrine ought not to be made from them. Many Protestant Bibles were printed with this format, but eventually the “extra” or non-doctrinal books were taken out. I pondered this same question you had and did a lot of digging. What I’ve typed here is the best of my understanding, but I may be leaving some things out.
The extra books the catholics add are the yeast of the Pharisees.
The New Testament in the Catholic and Protestant Bibles has all the same books. The difference is in the Old Testament. The OT in the KJV Bible (and other Protestant translations) is from the Hebrew Tanakh, which does not include the deuterocanonical books. The Tanakh is what the Jews were using for their holy text at the time that Jesus was on the earth. What the Jews call the "Tanakh," we call "the Old Testament." The deuterocanonical books are not recognized by Protestants, Orthodox Jews, or Messianic Jews. I'm not 100% sure why, but I suspect it has to do with accepting what the Jews accepted as scripture when Jesus was on Earth, and the text he taught from while he was here. The Torah, BTW, is just the first 5 books of the Bible.
I'd just like to add a few comments on this topic from a Catholic point of view. Firstly, regarding the claim that there is no example in the Bible of praying to the saints or Angles, we may not see this occur in direct fashion however what we can clearly tell is the God has a liking for including as many people as his instruments in whatever his works are as possible. Think of any instance where God seeks and outcome but decides to go through human beings instead of acting directly. In this way God brings more people closer to him and his works than would otherwise be the case. I think this is one of the reasons we are instructed to pray for each other here on earth and by extension any prayers to saints or for the dead have to be considered in that light.
Secondly, as far as mediation goes, yes it's clear that Jesus is the only mediator, however mediation does not equal intervention. If intervention by human beings is never considered by God than all our prayers are rendered useless. I think this means that Jesus's death and resurrection are the only things that reconcile us to the Father but it was not the only act that ever could help any of us along that way.
In any case, thanks for dealing with this issue with charity and good will instead of condemning us as idolaters.
The parable Jesus taught of Poor Lazarus and his brother states that there is no communication with the dead. At least as I remember. We are not to try to communicate with the dead per the Old Testament.
Saints aren't dead. The rich man was in Hades, not heaven. The Catholic and Orthodox position remains to this day that you cannot speak with those in Hades. Saints in heaven are another matter entirely.
what is the Lutheran perspective on Mary “The Mother of Of Jesus” Our Lord versus the catholic perspective???
Thanks for the video! I have one question: if Lutherans are to have this open, generous, conservative approach in retaining tradition, is it really going to be a sufficient reason to do away with invoking the saints' intercession to say "we don't have instruction, example, or promise attached to it in the Holy Scriptures"?
14:45 which saint do I look toward as a computer programmer?
Saint Isidore (of Seville)
Watch out gate
He isn't talking about "Saints" (capital S, according to the Catholics), but looking at the examples of past "saints" (all sinners who have been forgiven). P. Wolfmueller was referencing the church's doctrine of vocation. There is no separate "vocation" for "computer programmer."
I attended an LCMS church for around a decade and was a member- mostly middle aged and younger congregation- and the number of people that crossed themselves I could count on my fingers of one hand. I can speak from adult confirmation class, which really didn't go very deep into the faith, that it wasn't taught (at least not in my class) in terms of its significance and how to do it, so I guess quite a few people didn't know. However, I think there are some who didn't do it simply because it was seen as a "Catholic thing". I appreciate my time in the LCMS and found it to be the closest to the true faith among the Protestant denominations, but I've come to realize that the original church is found in the Orthodox and Catholic churches and that the other churches were created by men (Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Henry the Eighth, John Smith, etc.). I wish the Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran (non-ELCA branches), and Anglican (conservative branches) would unite. There is no need for this separation at this moment in time.
The protestant churches were not created by man but came OUT of the same shared history of Orthodoxy & Catholicism; and all of them have their own histories of conflicts, misunderstanding, sins, & political maneuvering that's made reconciliation difficult.
If the catholic churches were using the bible as part of their daily lives, then perhaps we could merge with them. But have you ever seen a catholic carrying a bible to church? They are busy reciting prayers like muslims.... thats why a catholic cannot close their eyes and pray from their hearts.
Jesus is the shepherd who will have his one flock. Not this church or that church.
@@murielpucoe9213 Eastern Orthodoxy is no better, they are lost in their church fathers teachings and sayings. When I spoke with Catholics and Orthodox they are not strong in the Bible and refer to extrabiblical ideas. Their great schism was a fake that was meant to prevent a reformation. To stop a real reformation and loss of their control. They pretended to split as to offer an alternative but they are both the same they are both pagan.
In response to this short video, here is a few excerpts from the article, by Neal Behm, entitled: "Speaking The Truth In Love To Catholics." Neal Behm is a teacher in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod.
The church today is fortunate that the early church fathers dealt with such heresies and came up with the term “hypostatic union” to properly define the two natures of Christ. Yet the ancient church fathers did not have the liberty to use such a term in the early centuries of Christianity because it wouldn’t have worked. "No such doctrine existed in the first century." The reason I have chosen my topic is to help lay people and pastors to get past that view about Catholics. We have books such as Speaking the Truth in Love to Muslims, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, but we don’t have one for Catholics. The Pseudepigrapha refers to books written after 100 AD. People wrote these books and falsely used a name of an apostle to give their work more credence. One of the things that led to the elevation of Mary in early religious thought was the New Testament Pseudepigrapha, specifically the Proto-Gospel of James. The writings[of the Pseudepigrapha] are another important window for discovering the ethos of early Christian people as well as their disposition to create imaginative theological ways of probing what was left unsaid about the persons who surrounded Jesus. The Proto-Gospel of James introduces new teachings about Mary that are not found in the Bible. The origins of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, the belief that Mary was born without original sin, can be seen here. In the Magnificat, Catholics have elevated the song not only to be a song of praise to God but also to be a song of praise to Mary. On the contrary, Luther said that Mary only sang this song of praise for God. “Mary indicate[d] what her hymn of praise is to be about, namely, the great works and deeds of God, for the strengthening of our faith, for the comforting of all those of low degree…for she sang it not for herself alone but for us all, to sing it after her.” Also: “She does not say, ‘My soul magnifies itself’ or ‘exalts me.’ She does not desire herself to be esteemed; she magnifies God alone and gives all glory to him.”Luther showed how Mary was not full of grace as in someone who deserved to receive this blessing from God. Rather she was full of grace because God has blessed her. “Thus what the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God…You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor…But we can use the Hail Mary as a mediation in which we recite what grace God has given her.” Luther said When God’s Word had been silenced such a host of un-Christian fables and lies were introduced…all of the festivals of saints are to be discontinued…The festivals of the Purification and Annunciation of Mary may be continued, and for the time being also her Assumption and Nativity, although the songs in them are not pure. The Four Official Doctrines About Mary In The Roman Catholic Church are The Immaculate Conception (Celebrates Mary’s conception), Mary’s nativity (Celebrates Mary’s birth), the Assumption (Celebrates the bodily ascension of Mary), the Annunciation (celebrates the angel Gabriel’s message to Mary that she is pregnant with Jesus - Luke 1:26-38 ). The Visitation celebrates Mary visiting Elizabeth (Luke 1:39-56). Her Purification celebrates when Mary and Joseph bring Jesus to the temple (Luke 2:22-40). The doctrines about Mary’s Immaculate Conception and her Assumption are not found in Scripture. The Immaculate Conception, the belief that Mary was without original and actual sin, is contrary to Scripture. The Assumption, the belief that Mary ascended to heaven, could be true since Scripture describes Enoch and Elijah ascending to heaven. Yet Scripture is silent about what happened to Mary. However, parts of the Assumption are contrary to Scripture since Catholics believe Mary ascended to heaven in order to defend us. Some people view Mary as the co redeemer and co-mediator. So far the Roman Catholic Church has not made this an official teaching and does not condemn those who do not believe this, but that could change in the future. The deceased Pope John Paul II was a huge proponent of Mary as the co mediator. On March 25, 1987 he wrote an encyclical called Redemptoris Mater, Latin for Mother of the Redeemer. In this encyclical he wrote, Thus there is a mediation: Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs, and sufferings. She puts herself “in the middle,” that is to say she acts as a mediatrix not as an outsider. She knows she can point out to her Son the needs of mankind, and in fact, she “has the right” to do so. Her mediation is thus in the nature of intercession: Mary “intercedes” for mankind. Not only does the Roman Catholic Church just have four official doctrines about Mary, according to their teachings they do not worship Mary at all. The following beliefs were around for centuries before they were officially adopted by Catholic theologians. First, there is latria which is adoration only reserved for God. Second is dulia or veneration which is only for angels and saints. The third is hyperdulia or hyperveneration which is only reserved for Mary. Although Roman Catholics make these distinctions about devotion, there are countless problems with these distinctions. “While in theory these categories are intended to prevent idolatrous worship of created beings, in practice they have little effect on the religious feelings of the masses.” Most lay Catholics do not understand these different forms of devotion, and in the end they do end up worshiping Mary in an idolatrous way. Luther took advantage of the different worship services that focused on Mary in order to instruct and educate the people on how to view Mary properly.
Sorry, I'm pretty new to this. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I was wondering, does the Lutheran church differ in any way from the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ?
The Lutheran church follows the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ (:
Lutheranism IS the faith taught by Jesus in the Bible. Lutheranism is the most Bible- centric, Bible-faithful denomination there is (unfortunately, not all "Lutheran" churches are actually Lutheran- you gotta be careful there.)
What about denominational closed communion?
Who are the saints in heaven that pray for us? If its those who have died in Christ, doesn't that imply that all those who die in Christ go immediately to heaven?
I believe that playing the lottery is a sin against the commandment, "Thou shalt not covet [anything] that is thy neighbor's." By playing I would be coveting the dollars of all the other players. Would you feel comfortable commenting on playing the lottery from scripture?
What they paid is not theirs anymore. Applying your reasoning, you would never be able to sell anything, because you're coveting other's money. It's obvious that the commandment refers to something else.
Generally the term Magisterial Reformation covers the Lutherans and the Reformed. The Radical Reformation covers the Anabaptists.
According The Church Father John Chrystosoms Sign Of The Cross is for protection and drive out demons....using sign of the cross is good for me as a protestant.....
Regarding praying to saints, Paul repeatedly tells Christians to pray for one another. Not always directly to God but go to God with your brother. On what basis would you exclude a Christian saint, especially after he has been sanctified and his prayers are more effective according to James (5)?
Exactly!
Pray FOR one another, not TO one another. This isn't talking about those who have passed into eternity.
@@preachingpresbyterian7943
You don’t know what the word “pray” means
@@bridgefin 'To ask' I imagine you shall reply. But this is a ridiculous assertion as it implies that we all pray to eachother. Prayer is for a divine being alone.
@@preachingpresbyterian7943
Yes, you got a 50% mark out of a hundred. I suggest that you study English before you try to use that language in studying the bible.
Christians have crossed themselves since the 2nd century, first on the forehead. It's a harmless action to remind oneself who one is and to whom one belongs. No Church teaches that one can pray to a saint or any created thing. One can only prayer to the Uncreated One. One prays with and for the saints but always TO God in the name of Christ. One can venerate saints no prayer. The early Church debated the question if the dead heard us. The question was settled that asking the intercession of the saints as fellow member of God's family We pray for each other but not to each other and this is always down through Christ! Also they are examples to us.
Ironically, the invocation of the saints is just as ancient a practice in Christianity as the sign of the cross. The text you quote from Tertullian is from the same period in which archeologists dated a found text which contains a hymn to the Theotokos: "Beneath your compassion we take refuge, O Theotokos..." Especially the martyrs were invoked, and as here evidenced, the Mother of God.
What is the mechanism with which God would deliver our prayers to the Saints Triumphant? When Ray was a Roman Catholic Cistercian monk and seminarian, a professor told him "an angel carries the prayers of the faithful to the saints in question." However, this is the same professor, who to the question "If we are to call no man father except our Father in heaven, then why do we call you 'father'?"; answered, "because I take the place of God." Of course, neither answer can be found in the Bible, and the question of mechanism of how this transmission of prayers occurs is not addressed either. So, to say anything beyond that the Saints Triumphant are praying for us, is beyond the pale of sound Biblical interpretation.
When Jesus address the criminal on cross did he suggest all these things?
My sister used to live in the dorms at concordia in Austin in 2006 and 7. You would have seen them at 17:01 in the video but they were torn down after the campus moved a couple of years later.
So us Laestadian Lutherans, conservative. You would call radical?
I do not like crossing one's self. The vestage and certain prayers at this and that time concern me.. humns are very important.
I wonder how much you know about our doctrine?
What are all the words to the Lords prayer?
Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy name
May Your kingdom come,
May Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven,
Give us this day, our daily bread
And forgive us our tresspasses,
As we forgive those who tresspass against us
Lead us not into temptation
And deliver us from evil
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory,
Forever and ever, amen.
@@addheading last two lines are part of the liturgy, not the Lord's Prayer. :)
Does it go against the Bible or the gospel?
@@davidmathews9633 No
@@toomanymarys7355 "For Yours is kingodm and power and glory for ever, Amen" is from Matthew 6:13
woofmeower
Demons hate the cross
I would not say this I have known practicing witches who wear crosses. One of these who had invited demons to live in her explained once: THEY TOLD ME it (the cross) would protect me
Have you ever asked a friend or family member to please pray for me, I'm ill, or I'm taking a difficult exam etc... That is the exact same thing that we are doing when we ask the saints to pray for us. First and foremost, Jesus will listen to His mother before He listens to us. He can not say no to His mother. Example: The wedding feast at Canna. Mother Mary asked her son to help with the shortage of wine. Jesus, however, was not ready to begin His long journey just yet. However, His great love for His mother, Mary, had him change water into wine, even though he wasn't ready to do it. He will never say no to Mary. He knows that anyone who prays and asks for her intercession will only lead us straight to Him. We, by no means, put Mother Mary or any saint a head of Jesus. They are there to help us. We are the communion of saints, after all.
The dead are in the grave, awaiting the resurrection.
That is the difference
The living can pray for you.
The dead cannot.
@@geordiewishart1683that’s the difference. The Saints are not dead, they are the living cloud of witnesses, the friends of Jesus, who in this life bore witness to Jesus the Lord.
Are we Christians not all Saints?
Zippers... out 😆
At the beginning of the video, you point out that Lutherans allowed all that is not contradicted in Scripture.
You then go on to point out that asking for the intercession of the saints is not in Scripture, positively speaking.
Could you not say that (while you may judge it potentially dangerous as many good things are if used poorly), that such intercession is not opposed or contradicted in Scripture?
In the explanation of the sign of the cross, you state that it is. It in the Bible itself. Yet that doesn’t dissuade it’s use, but praying to the saints not being in the Bible does dissuade it’s use. Also, how early in history do we see prayer to the saints?
*isn’t in
Buddy, you need to concentrate on driving.
I see no difference between asking you to pray for me or any of the Saints and Angels in Heaven to pray for me. Saint Paul tells us to pray for one another and Jesus tells us that God the Father is a God of the living and not the dead. Besides, when do we cease to be part of Christ's Body after death on earth? So you're telling me that when a Christian dies and goes to Heaven we cease to be part of Christ's Body and therefore we cease to be connected to our Christian brothers and sisters who are still alive on earth and we cannot help them because Jesus might get upset at us if they ask us to pray for them instead of going directly to Him instead?
Nor do I see anywhere in the Bible that explicitly forbids this practice of asking for prayers from Heaven.
And someone in the comment section stated that before the Council of Trent the Catholic Church was a Sola Scriptura church- say what? Is this what Lutheran's are being taught these days?
The problem with this presumed ability of passed on persons to pray for us is that since we live in different spheres of existence, we here on Earth in our mortal humanity cannot ascertain what is going on in the Heavenly tealm,because it's hidden from us, so frankly its speculation and guesswork. It must again be emphasized that the Scriptures NEVER directs us to pray to ANYONE but Almighty God alone; NOWHERE are we instructed to pray to angels or people who have passed on into the Heavenly World, so...no, you're not expressly forbidden to, but speaking only for myself I see no point in addressing someone who has passed on since I cannot ascertain as to these "prayers " have ANY efficacy. There is NO Scriptural evidence that Peter, James,and John had ever prayed to Moses and Elijah before they appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration, so...That's my take on this issue....ANYONE?? 😏😏😏
@@lcringo3498,
Talk about presuming, isn't that what Protestantism does when it presumes that EVERYTHING must come from Scripture to be followed for the Christian?
Why would praying for each other here suddenly cease once we are transported into Heaven?
You make the point that we are directed to ONLY pray (ask) to the Father, first off, where does it say that in the Bible that we are to pray to the Father ONLY?
Secondly, if that were so then the Lord's prayer is the ONLY prayer that we are able to pray.
Thirdly, Saint Paul contradicts the Father and Jesus because he tells us to pray for one another.
Sometimes I am struck with amazement that it's Protestants who lack faith (since one of their pillars is Sola Fide) because you cannot ascertain whether prayers to Saints and Angels are efficacious.
You cannot ascertain whether it's efficacious?!🤦♂️
You cannot see the wind but you can see and feel it's effects.
One rather significant objection is that we have absolutely no reason to believe that the saints or angels can hear us. Of course, they are a part of the communion of saints. They even pray for us, as the Lutheran Confessions point out. But we have no grounds for believing that they can hear our prayers to them.
Nobody said that the Roman church held to the Sola Scriptura before Trent. If it had, the Reformation would never have happened. It is true, however, that Trent officially recognized the books of the Apocrypha, which were not a part of the Old Testament Jesus used because it needed them to defend prayer to the saints, purgatory, and other doctrines to which the Lutherans objected and which even the Catholic church could not defend from the canonical Scriptures.
So do you ever ask people on earth to pray for you? Sinful persons ... If so, why ? Why not ask those closest to Our Lord ..perfectly sinless ... to pray for us ... especially His Mother ?
Because that is invoking the dead.
@@shellieperreault6262 Jesus is in trouble then, considering that one time with ‘ol Moses and Elijah.
@@j_deo Jesus is God, He can talk to the living, the dead, and the ascended.
If they're dead, does that mean Jesus' s promise of eternal life was a lie?
An agreeable response to this video is "A" okay. Although most of my comments allow God's truth to expose error in the presenting pastor, especially when he tries to find a Biblical context to justify pastoral "Highheadedness," this video shows how the pastor does not once try to get false justification from the ancient Western Church bishops, and he does not speak great words against the most High, nor does he attempt, in this particular video, to "Wear out" himself or the other saints of the most High (Daniel 7: 25). Luther properly taught that we make the sign of the cross to bless ourselves. Luther did say this, and notice that the pastor specifically quoted Luther, not having to rely off of anything from the Western Church bishops. The pastor, in this video, only has to seek false justification, from the ancient Western Church bishops, for closed communion and LCMS making the pastoral office a substitute for Christ. The sign of the cross is a confession of faith. To trace the sign of the cross upon our bodies is to confess faith in Christ the crucified. In so signing himself, the Christian says with St. Paul, “God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.” By this sign we confess that all that we have and are is through the cross of Christ alone. The sign of the cross is really an acted-out prayer; and no less a prayer even when no words are used. Martin Luther says in his Small Catechism, “In the morning and in the evening, you shall bless yourself with the sign of the Holy Cross and, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.” It is the custom to make the sign at the invocation, end of the Creed, after receiving the Body and Blood of Christ in the Lord’s Supper, and at the Benediction.
But aren't we the saints?
What do you mean?
We are:
Romans 1:7 Paul addresses to all believers in Rome and calls them "saints".
Philiphians 1:1 same
Et cetera
Traditions were set up by the Catholic Church. It is Christ to St. Peter and to all the Church. Luther was a Catholic monk and priest. Nothing is perfect except Christ. The saints pray for us and is explained in the Creed THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS.
King Hesicicha had to destroy the serpent on stake because people had turned it into idol. Everyone knows John 3:16 reciete by heart. How many can recite John 3:14. Something to beware is Matthew 7:23 when we put elements taught by men of old or today ahead of Bible or the reserection we are on thin ice. When Jesus ascended it was a private audience when he was crucified it was public audience when he comes back every knee will bow.
a little catholic leaven leaveneth the whole lump...
Oh my God, this mariolatry demon continues to tempt, I can go boldly to Jesus without that "Mary" for bible is the easiest way to Jesus not mary, not pups but who seeks word and keep it.
Dear Pastor Wolfchaser ;-)
I am worried about you Driving & changing your view from Road to Camera. I perceive great danger for your health & life one day.
✓ 11th Commandment:. Thou shalt not Drive & do any Recording at same time.
OK?
I make the sign of the cross at every mention of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Who cares what the Lutheran-Baptists think.
Lutherans do make the sign of the Cross. It's in the Lutheran catechism and liturgical books. PS the Blessed Sacrament is the actual Body and Blood. The Augsburg Confession calls the Eucharist the MASS. Lutherans have crucifix. Nuns and Monks. Also Confession and my Absolution.
@@richardsaintjohn8391
Yeah, I grew up Lutheran, but I think it must have been overtaken by Baptists or something because nobody made the sign of the cross and it was never taught. What a shame. I only started making it when looking at Orthodoxy, but then came back to Lutheranism and retained that habit.
@@zarnoffa Many practices, such as making sign of cross, vary between congregations & locations...you are certainly welcome to continue!
@@davidkottman3440
Why, thank you, David! So kind of you. ;)
Roman Catholic deacon here (biased, I know)... love your videos (even 3 years behind)... but doesn't the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus at least hint at the idea of invoking the Saints? It is a parable, I know ... but it at least hints at the possibility of a request for prayer. Furthermore ... we have no problem with asking our fellow humans here to pray for us, how would it be a problem to ask the saints to pray for us when they are more alive than we are. 2 Peter tells us that we are called to share in the Divine Nature (doesn't that Nature "see/witness" everything from eternity?).
Sign of the cross not necessary.
Lutheran man made religion.