Archetypes in Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2
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- čas přidán 30. 03. 2021
- This video is a part of a collaboration between a bunch of content creators exploring archetypes within games we all like :))))))
• The Archetypes of Figh...
AYO YOU WANNA PLAY GUILTY GEAR THO - store.steampowered.com/app/63...
Ayo you wanna follow me on twitter tho?
/ leonmassive
How bout twitch?
/ leonmassey - Hry
I remember watching a stream of a pro GG player, he was japanese but he did know enough english to drop this pearl of wisdom.
"Every character in guilty gear is a gorilla."
What about Millia?
"Very fast gorilla."
Leo?
"King Gorilla."
that was Omito during Strive beta. He was calling everyone a gorilla lmao
also Potemkin was King Gorilla. Leo is ultra ultimate gorilla
And Bedman?
Smart gorilla
And Elphelt? Gorrila with guns and grenades.
I am like 99.99999% sure this is Omito.
to be fair its just the nature of guilty gear and why we love it
edit: anyone got the clip btw? I wanna see it
Today: Leon Massey discovers that GG is inherently a rushdown-oriented game, possibly remembering that it's the game that actively steals your meter if you press back for more than a microsecond.
And it's also the game where everyone has multiple dashes and airdashes, and the one guy who *doesn't* is the exception
@@brunop.8745 I remeber going from Samurai Showdown 4 to Guilty Gear X and I was like: WAH I CAN AIR DASH?!
i really hope you dont think that he didn't know this before making the video.
@@n0v3mb3r7 I hope you recognize that the comment was at least a somewhat sarcastic joke
@@navadax4541 i dont understand how that is sarcastic. what they said is correct, gg is a very aggressive game.
babe wake up Leon’s talking about gear again
but then I'd never be able to sleep
I love gear
@@Jake1539 “I love Gear” - Leon “Man I love Venom’s balls” Massesy, 2021. Probably
Babe
DID SOMEONE SAY LEO (frenzied brynhild unga noises)
Everyone else: Poor, predictable Sol players, always taking Volcanic Viper
Sol Players: Good ol' Volcanic Viper! Nothing beats that!
And sometimes it works
That's me
Hahaha, yeah....
VOLCANI VIPAH
DANGER
3
2
1
VOL-VOL-VOL-VOL-VOL-VOL-VOL-VOL- VOLCANIC VIPAH
SOL WINS
Daisuke: Working as intended.
in Guilty Gear everyone has and will eventually return to M O N K E.
You are right. I play a very irresponsible and reckless Sol. Win or lose it is always a good time.
Mankind knew they could not cannot change society:
So they returned to MONKE
DANDY-ISM IS LIFE.
I play Ky and Faust. How do I truly return to M O N K E ?
@@seanmcdonald1111 That is BULLSHIT, MONKE
Still my heart is MONKE
Jack'O appears
"And that's the league of legends Nexus."
Fucking brilliant.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN!?
@@angelmm1999 minions have spawned
@@angelmm1999 As a moba's final objective the Nexus is heavily guarded by towers innibs and minions, to destroy it means playing around 20 to 40 minute to painfully destroy all of those objectives and finally hit the god damn Nexus.
I'd say Fighting against Jack'O feels exactly like that thus the line.
Also the simple fact that minions are also used to defend said objective is funny on its own if you compare it to her playstyle.
@@DrakamLeRouge This but imagine the nexus is ALSO a rushdown!
@@thechugg4372 In Wild Rift(the mobile version) the nexus attack so yeah, a rushdown.
I play Sol and I giggled every time the jingly keys showed up. Checks out.
say it with me:
UUUUUUUUUAAA
I main may and....oww same
Guilty Gear Has just perfected the human instinct to stand on top of your opponent and press every button available.
How to guilty gear:
Step 1: Hold the stick towards your opponent
Step 2: Throw your controller down the stairs
Step 3: Profit?
The fact you show greed sever at “fundamentals” killed me
It was surprising how many people I caught with it 🤣
“That’s a league of legends nexus”
I was already crying laughing, you didn’t have to murder me with this
Indeed
Can you explain the joke
@@hdhgjhjdvj you know the baby soldiers in the moba, the nexus is where they come from... I think
This punchline ended me
@@hdhgjhjdvj she summons little minions... the nexus from league of legends is ur base... it also summons little minions
"So, what character archetypes do you want?"
Daisuke Ishiwatari: Y E S
QUE HACES AQUÍ MASTERLASHERON TE AMO
"oops it's all rushdown"
ultimamente te estoy viendo más y más en videos en inglés
This game at least has some form of archetype.. DBFZ seems to want everyone to be a rush down and I’m not joking. Only one zoner who can rush and that’s it.
Sube video infeliz
"you can also fireball > questionable game design"
THAT BROKE ME
“We can’t *ALL* be rushdown!*
DBFZ: We can’t?!
ArcSys is just UngaBunga happy is what I learned ..
Moral of the story: if your character is not a rushdown, your just not at that part of the gameplan yet
It's funny that Skullgirls is in the old category when it's still getting updated more often than most fighting games that came after it are. The launch party never ends
Skullgiiiiiiiiirls!
New character
To be fair it is turning 9 in April. That's old for a fighting game. PS: Skullgirls will never die
there was a dry spell after they unfortunately booted Mike Z. i don’t want a season pass, i want agency in the characters we get in the game like during the kickstarter days
This game is like a really good looking zombie. It’s been through so much but it s still standing. Basically Squigly
A large part of this videos problem with the whole archetype business is that there are archetypes within archetypes. For instance, Sol is an "aggressive shoto" who loves to be a rushdown character when he gets the chance, Ky is a "defensive shoto" who prefers to chip you out with sword normals and then transition into safe pressure once he's properly set up his business, and Kum is a "balanced shoto" who enjoys playing around midscreen and capitalizing off of your mistakes. Then there's stuff like Chipp being a "proactive rushdown" who wants to subsume you in his mixup game of death before you have a chance to shut him out, and Jam being a "reactive rushdown" who likes to play midscreen and punish you with her bigass kick specials to she can charge a card and harass you. Or the difference between "spicy" zoners like Axl who push people out with his normals and "mild" zoners like Faust who prefer using specials to create space. So how do you define the goal of an archetype properly? What's the difference between sub archetypes when they have the same goal?
The solution to this problem comes in the form of setplay access, I feel. When you get a hard knockdown, is it better to advance and set up oki, or back away and create space to zone? This can vary depending on the game, but GG does provide us some examples. Axl prefers to back away, since his chain normals can whiff at close range and many of his close range combos end with him pushing his opponent out towards full-screen. Faust meanwhile has the goal of harassing with his annoying normals and long range specials, and then transitioning into a more aggressive approach to capitalize off of his items via setplay and tough oki. In that sense I think we should stop calling everything either a shoto, zoner, grappler or rushdown and begin looking at characters based off of what they want to achieve rather than how they play. Because I played 120 hours of DBFZ and I swear to god Broly is neither a grappler nor is he a zoner and I have no idea what to call such a terrifying creature. You don't know true pain until you get zoned out, airdash in, and get tiger knee command grabbed out of the air.
@@leithazizpagy4699 No actually, you're correct in calling him that. The problem is that calling him a grappler zoner hybrid does a disservice to explaining how he works. How does a bulky character meant to burst you down with big command grabs also function as a long distance character who wants to bully you with ranged attacks when pushed away?
I don't even know what you could describe this as. Maybe something like bully?
I would never call any character in GG a shoto to begin with
@@NeoBoneGirl Ky, Sol and Kum are all absolutely Shotos. Each one has a gap closer, a meterless reversal and a fireball, but each one expresses these elements in different ways and has more than enough differences to not "just" be shotos, which I outlined.
@@SunsetSullivan Shoto is such a meaningless term outside of, and even in, Street Fighter. Baiken has a fireball, gap closer, and meterless reversal. As does Axl. Are they shotos too?
@@NeoBoneGirl Are they central to her gameplan in the way Ryu's are? I would argue no, which is where the difference comes from.
A shoto is "meant" to use their fireball to pressure midscreen, before using their reversal to punch people out of the air as they try to dodge the fireball, and then using their gap closer to get close enough to fight at close range. Baiken's gameplan revolves around using her alpha counters to interrupt enemy pressure while she mounts her own, and has several tools built around this (tatami, her jD, etc). Axl is the same way- while he uses the reversal to approach, it's actually pretty shit to get people off him in the way that Ryu's dragon punch is not. It's meant more as an anti-air tool when people get through his anti-air wall of sickles, which he himself is amazing at. By Axl's fireball I assume you mean Rashousen, which isn't a fireball at all- it's a fullscreen grab that is punishable in ways that fireballs are not and is thus not meant to assist with mounting long distance pressure, but rather as a reward for successfully getting your opponent conditioned enough to approach along the ground.
The intents in gameplan are too different to call them shotos, even though they supposedly have all the tools needed to be one. You have to look at the wider expectations of what each character wants to succeed in in order to understand how these tools are meant to be used.
Holy goddamn someone explained Oki in concise and simple words.
"It’s that simple?!"
Always has been.
Literally means "attack the wake up" in Japanese, if it helps anything.
You do a delayed attack when your opponent is on the ground, so that when they wake up they will have a lot on their plate.
Okis can also be done by attacking just as your opponent is waking up.
I know, I can't believe it either. As a fairly casual fighter fan who mostly watches other people play, I've always struggled to wrap my head around that particular bit of terminology because it's rather disconnected from the English terms and never seems to get explained when other terms I already understand are.
This just makes me want to see more games where the standard archetype is Faust's "he's just fucking weird man he's just doing his own thing".
The Faust archetype
Faust is a neutral based char lol, he pokes. People think his gameplan is wacky cuz of item toss but it’s really just poking
@@NeoBoneGirl that is what i think of him
"Guilty Gear has so many rushdowns!!"
Melty Blood: Allow me to introduce myself.
ah yes the classic shoto strategy of knocking an opponent down to put multiple multihit fireballs ontop of you. Yes definitely a defining shoto strategy
0:05 tough love arena if anyone is wondering
its so bad its funny, lol. I play it from time to time, but I like only one character really :C
@@TheSaival hey :( its good
@@TheSaival its a great fighting game what do you mean?
better than fantasy strike as a “simple fighter”. has a good deal of depth and doesn’t have any unnecessary frills or mechanics. overall very promising.
BLESS UR SOUL
It’s a funny premise, but the fact that GG pushes you to be offensive and rush your opponent down is one of the things I love about it. What is cool is how everyone has different ways to do it, and that really lends to some identity as a player.
7:45 BBCF's trap character is Arakune
He's volatile as fuck because he's designed around building up his "curse" meter, a mechanic unique to him. If he gets a combo started, he can likely curse you from it, which puts you into the worst mixup situation ever concieved in a fighting game (that's probably going a little overboard, but just know that you will not block it). He gets to mix you up in near uncontestable pressure until it runs out. On the other hand though, his tools outside of curse are quite dismal, so if you can keep him from landing hits and getting curse, you can snowball him to an easy victory.
so yeah anyway Kune wack
No, it's not going overboard, it is if not one of the worst mixup situations ever conceived, unseeable crossup lows overheads, crossups in the corner, literally invisible overhead yada yada, kune is fucked up and I love him and I wish I had the execution for him
"If everyone is rushdown, then no one is rushdown."
Leon doesn't understand what rushdown is: The video
The main problem I have with this video is conflating “having pressure off knockdown” with “being a rush down character.” The former is a description of the character’s offense and the latter is a description of a character’s neutral
“I’m sure BB has one, but I’m too lazy to check.”
**sad Arakune noises (kinda)**
@@aaaaaaaaaa1644 Rachel also counts.
No leon, not every character that does anything is a rushdown
7:42 “Carmine, Testament and... Carmine again”
Sad Byakuya noises
“...someone who wants to stay stuck to you like a tumor...” (shows Tian Huo)
Ain’t that just, and only the truth.
Didn't expect Leon to devolve into madness when talking about Gear, but ok
If there isn’t a “bullshit RNG” archetype I will be sad. That’s the only type I play.
Faust is the closest you get to bullshit RNG, outside of GG then there's Teddie in P4A/BBTAG and Hero in Smash
Oh no someone let Leon into the liquor cabinet and now he's talking about Gear again.
Someday you'll talk about tager when you talk about grapplers. I believe.
I will never have someone who loves me as much as Leon loves guilty gear
I think many parts of this video are good, best part being your breakdown of Potemkin!! However you really muddy the waters for a significant section of it by equating "doing oki" to the rushdown archetype, which is much more about having an overwhelming amount of movement options and/or projectile eating/bypassing moves to break through the opponents space control and put yourself in close range. If you call oki rushdown, you also call Potemkin rushdown, and that neither makes sense on its own nor maintains consistency with your earlier thoughts on him. Even if you look to Street Fighter, Mr. McHonest Footsies Ryu can end many of his combos with a tatsu or simply land a sweep in neutral to knock you down and play oki. He even has high/low mixups, safejumps, a crossup, and a good throw which depending on the title may leave you next to him so he may continue the oki. So is Ryu a rushdown character? Not really. Knockdowns are simply a standard advantage state across fighting games, nearly everyone tries to leverage that advantage to some degree and it would be better to explore the ways characters earn their knockdowns to define their playstyles than being reductive and pointing out that they do indeed want a knockdown.
I'm so glad you mentioned how every shoto has 3 or less letters in their name, I've been talking about this for so long
@@starbreaker6441 God damn SNK
@@momazosnachos3939 also robert from Art of fighting and KOF
@@Yeetdab16.10 God Damn SNK
Doing Leon's job for him; when he was searching for an example of a trapper in BlazBlue edition. Rachel Alucard is a *standout* example of a trapper, setting up a fuck ton of projectiles that slowly approach the enemy, or sit there doing nothing until she makes a specific input to activate them after they've been used as a normal projectile. Or for another example, one could argue Kokonoe is a trapper, although she also has a lot of zoning and mix up play, so I'd say she's more of an all rounder.
In the beginning you define "Oki" as something I would agree with. Pressure after a knockdown (basically)
Later in the video you turn that definition into Pressure after knockdown = Rushdown.
Just because a character has Pressure after a knockdown doesn't mean they become a rushdown character.
Pressure after a knockdown is just "Oki". Every character should have "Oki", no matter if they are a zoner, shoto, rushdown or grappler.
This video is gonna blow up now with the rollback upgrade.
"a character that's awful but nobody likes playing against because they're a grappler"
you have the correct opinion I see
I dont get why you consider every character with Oki tools a rush down...
This is exactly what I needed as a developer who wants to emulate these types of archetypes but isn’t necessarily the best at fighting games.
Generally seeing how other games design characters of these archetypes and the general goal of archetypes in different games helps give me a better idea of how I should design my own characters and roster
11:31 "that's a Monke..."
ACTUALLY Pretty makes sense, does agile weird things but also hits hard and is really powerful when you can't hit him back, but still weaker than Sol or Leo.
The earthbound music in the background slaps
Leon talking about Guilty Gear so passionately brings a smile to my face even though I've never played a GG game yet
FGC content creator collab, it's like Christmas but with more rushdown
It's called a Radar Chart Leon just so you know also great video as always you're the inspiration I even bothered to try to learn GG before strive drops
Garpplers are friends Leon don't shame the noble glue eater
>Garpplers
>noble glue eater
Perfection
Oops, looks like Novril wasn't ready to make his video public yet. Still, the collaboration is a really cool idea, we appreciate it
Leon, you’ve arrived at the truth, GG is a violent vortex of delicious rush down okizeme. That’s why negative penalty exists.
"Fireball into questionable game design" is my favorite combo.
"Hammerfall is very punishable on block"
*laughs in Strive*
Aged like milk lmao, Pot players stay losing
@@NeoBoneGirl thank god, tbh. OBT2 Pot was a nightmare 😩
@@SoMuchNoise1 It was definitely stupid lol, a lot of Strive things are still kinda stupid though 👀
This was a great video. It was informative for people like myself who don't play a lot of fighting games, funny without feeling too forced, and actually has a real point at the end. It was very satisfying when all the analysis of different characters lead up to a conclusion about the game itself, I felt like my time wasn't wasted. Also great editing and great job making it entertaining.
bought this game on Steam during a sale just because this channel made me so hyped up to play it
You got me into guilty gear, because your video on the tension meter made the game look so sick, and now it's my favorite fighting game ever, thank you
This is video perfectly summorize why i love Guilty Gear characters: sure i could use I-no long range options to zone out my opponent or i could rush him down and shmix him with high lows with her dash.
Or you know pick Slayer and decide to never block in my entire life while punching a guy to the moon
I follow you and Theory Fighter and I was surprised you both uploaded at the same time. I hope you guys do this more. These FG video essays are some of my favorite CZcams content.
"Das a Gorilla"
"That's the League of Legends Nexus"
I had to replay those bits like 4 times, good stuff lol
I secretly really want Jack-O to come back even though everyone hates her.
Leon renaming YRC questionable game design has me rolling
Another well-done vid! Also, I just gotta mention your projectile manipulation pretty much the reason why I've started to main Venom in AC+R when I honestly had no idea who I wanted to play. So thanks, he's fun as hell
having a Leon Massey video right before i go to sleep is amazing.
thanks for an exceptional video, Leon! i hope you're doing well.
This weeks Guilty Gear ad was really well made! Great job!
I just love CZcams's algorithm of recommending videos. Don't play fighting games, but you know CZcams wants to recommend me a video about it.
2:32 HHAHAHAHAHAH STOOOOPPPPPP. I’m in my car in traffic, CRYING LAUGHING
Faust rejects your archetype and replaces it with his own. We need more "Faust" archetypes.
I am convinced you played Kum Haehyun just because of her name
Petition to rename anything about Haehyun to "The Kum Zone"
Tbh, this is so off topic, but his jabs at Leo just reminds me of story mode where he's very good at pretending he's smart solely because he says his bad ideas with a lot of confidence
Love these videos. I’m still hot garbage at fighting games but your videos are such a joy to watch. They make me feel smart
with rev 2 rollback officially announced, this was a good watch! I appreciate the quick and simple presentation
"is everyone rushdown?!"
KOF fans: "first time?"
Glad your channel is blowing up!
The BlazBlue Character you're looking for is Arakune
I was thinking Kokonoe but yeah that works too
i agree
Leon Massey uploaded? I gotta watch it now
A day that my favorite Guilty Gear channel uploads is a day I treasure forever.
Yo massive collab LET'S GO!
I actually saw yours and Novril's video at the same time in my recommendations and was so confused lol.
shit leon, I loved this video so much, its probably my favorite of all the ones you've made
Leon: everyone should play guilty gear
[Everyone starts playing guilty gear]
Leon: I don't feel like playing guilty gear anymore
I feel rushdown is being used in a bad way cause just about any character in any game is going to want to start their offense when given the opportunity. Where they find those opportunities is more how I'd see their archetype defined. Like Dhalsim doesn't want to be near you at all but if he manages to knock you down from a distance he's fine to teleport in and hit you with a few high low mixups before pushing himself back out and zone again. He isn't necessarily rushing you down just because he got enough to mix you up he's just applying basic offense that even a character of his archetype can take advantage of.
This is the greatest way to start my morning, thanks
Great video as always.
nice i was hoping for a video exactly like this
Thankies for the amazing content Leon, may you one day put down the keys and get yourself a well deserved rest.
I like when this guy in particular talks about Guilty Gear. Subbed
Finally another Guilty Gear focused video again. My favorite kind of content.
Mans really didn't mention Axl at all during the whole everyone is rushdown thing huh?
I feel that trying to explain Chip's options at any frame of the match is trying to solve the worlds most sadistic 3D Chess fused with 1D Sudoku, and if you question your decisions at all it disolcates a limb until you die of internal bleeding.
So basically Mixup.
rushdown characters are characters whose goal is to just get in on you. every character can benefit from okizeme, but that doesn't mean they're all rushdown.
finally, a video to rival jump arcs. Cant wait for you to cover smash melee
0:11 perfection
Leon. You wouldn't believe it, but I was havin a similar freakout over archetypes very recently. I'm glad I'm not alone.
banger video yet again
Im here since Xrd got roleback it this was a great video!
Subscribed! I like ya attitude man 💯👍
I've not gotten far in the vid, but I bought Rev2 on fanatical for 1.35 a few days ago, and solely from your videos I've decided to try Jack-O just to infuriate some souls.
Leon needs to be sponsored by arcsys since he's always advertising Guilty Gear
I don’t have good wifi but I bought rev 2 and started learning combos because of your vids, so thanks keep it up
Good game analysis + Earthbound OST = you've got yourself a subscribble
Yes a Leon upload
Leon, I think everytime you say RUSHDOWN you're resisting the words GUILTY GEAR! This is a pretty good video...but I don't know if I say almost everyone is rushdown. The way the game is played leads to this and I do appreciate the vid and it's comedy.