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Why Patch 1.05 WON'T MATTER for Good Reina Players | TEKKEN 8
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- čas přidán 5. 08. 2024
- / discord
/ mishimacomplex
My thoughts on the Reina nerfs in patch 1.05, and how to work around each of the nerfs. Hope you enjoy!
Timestamps:
00:00 - Thank you!
00:16 - Manji-geri
01:45 - FF2 Tracking
02:01 - DF1,2 Heat Dash Oki
02:21 - Conclusion & Outro
Music:
Tekken 5 Dark Resurrection OST | Supercharged
I have no problem with this nerf except the phantom hurtbox visual. Introducing even more visual confusion is bad for the game
In game it doesn't really matter that much, but the crouch change is mind-bogglingly stupid.
The point of those moves is to be evasive, that's the point of the style.
Truly one of the most moronic ways to balance a character I've ever seen.
Yeah I agree, just make it -15 🤦♂️
@@MishimaComplex They could have nerfed the damage or the hit effect. Crouch status was the worst thing they could have done to that move.
@@tek87 I think they (who ever is in charge of balancing) don't understand that the point of that move is to punish players for mashing highs and to reward you for making the correct read.
If the reward is too high, you either decrease the reward (lower the damage) or increase the risk (make it launch on block).
All they're doing this way is rewarding someone for mashing jabs mindlessly.
@@MishimaComplexit's amazing how simple it was to fix
Okay but what about all us bad reinas out there
If you apply what’s in the video you’ll be set 😂
MishimaComplex got so much Reina content.. Use it, git gud.
Corny chainsaw girl is waiting for you
Git gud
Suffer
I don’t agree with the removal of crouch status on a move you VISIBLY CROUCH. It makes no sense visually and for my brain
It's like Kazuya WS 2 (Demon god fist) he physically appears crouching, but jabs will hit during the attack animation.
@@mazenyasser7208not the same visually though. Kazuya stands up while punching. Reina stays ducking until the end of the animation.
@@mazenyasser7208 you Said it yourself : WHILE STANDING
Its not the same as when you do reinas moves as it is a status on its own
It is a forced nerf that gives a strange behaviour to that situation where Reina is completely crouched, made on a character with not that high win rate and was not really the issue on the past balancement status... So yeah, i feel bad too
@@giaGGiucaliterally the lowest in certain percentile lol
That image of king punching an invisible hit box Reina is anything but fair. They could at least change the animation or done something useful instead of this lazy ‘fix’ of theirs, because there’s no way on earth this interruption won’t feel anything more than being cheated with the attacks are literally hitting air.
This was my main gripe with removing crouching status from cd3, and I expected anything but this change to manji-geri kicks. Oh well, at least Xiaouy can still duck mids and launch you for that :D
@@Mozgodrobilrhe thing that xiao can is more like pain to me. Hate that loli beach
@@user-yr4tk9vs7zshe’s not loli brother but agreed.
Ngl im actually practicing xiao now cause I’m demoralized with Reina on rank rn
true i didnt think it will look that awkward before seeing it in vid
yea i need a explanation for their thinking behind this change. it feels like a half baked decision to give opps a easy out of what those moves can do if landed
Her nerfs arent too big a deal as theres plenty ways around it but also I just dont understand why theyd take away reinas crouch status for all those moves listed where shes actually crouched all the way through until end or even fully on ground at times and allow for highs that dont actually connect visually or physically to do so when there are character like leo who have moves like df2+3 where it actually visually has leo standing at startup but you cant jab him out of getting the low off and putting you in airborne from situation because that entire move has crouching status. had a moment earlier today where i actually did connect with reinas 1,1 today visually and physically before the actual crouch animation but i ate dirt for even trying. i dont think its too much to ask that if they were gonna make this kinda change to reina that they at least change the actual animations so it make sense and across board make sure characters moves visually line up with status. tbh id even be more accepting of this change if it was only reinas while crouching df4 cause thats only one outside of ff2 i actually heard ppl complain about.
Yeah I really hope that the next balance patch includes a pass to rectify visually ambiguous animations. Tekken should be based on visually confirmable hitbox collisions, there shouldn't be all these edge cases where moves that look like they crush highs don't or vice versa.
Theres no way that a move that visually has the character crouching, comes out of crouch status, and remains in crouch status for the entirety of the animation should ever be hit/interrupted by highs. It would make more sense to remove the high crush from godfist because at least shes actually standing when that move comes out
I think having crouching status for all those moves was fun because it allows to transition into different stances from far more moves, sure Reina still strong but part of the fun I think was taken away
U don't get it
Well , I disagree. those are gigantic nerf. Its not about better timing or anything. Those nerf basically expanded the opponent options and limited ours.
If hard read and better timing is the options, its not about Reina being strong or weak, its about being plainly a better player than the opponent. But Reina got weaker, that's for sure.
As someone who does not rely on a manji geri flow chart I disagree, this barely affected my ranked experience. And I was never one of the braindead FF2 users, I usually hid it behind some strings.
Crutched player complains that crutches got removed 💀 thats the whole point. The skill ceiling has been raised. Git gud or die trying
I agree with this. If you already were able to read your opponent and manually duck a high, that's not something Reina is doing, that's something you as a player did.
Reina had the ability to evade highs with these moves. You used them in the same situation you would a manual crouch, except because you are attacking, you are committed to the read, whether it's a bad/wrong read or a good one.
To put it simply, using her high crush crouching moves just took the 'crouch first' part out of the equation, and only worked if your opponent tried to steal a turn with a high.
Otherwise, it was the same as crouching, except you could guard or do anything else, in case your opponent didn't open up.
Visually, it also makes no sense, and causes confusion which the game is already full of. This is bad overall.
@@UngaBunga443username checks out. All I gotta say
@@Bruh-ii2mp likewise
Yay congratulations ❤
I'm so new to online tekken I don't understand much but so glad you are making amazing videos to teach us all.
I just enjoy playing Reina 🙌🏻😊 keep it up
When I saw ALL manji-geri listed I thought "It's over" but then thinking about it and your video made me hopeful, and, agree the high skill floor is a good thing (except the unsoku 4 vs highs, what is that hurtbox)
the moment i read the patch notes i know i should wait for mishimas complex video to drop before i freak out! thanks again for all your reina videos brother 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Your content is gawdlike, your explanations are very detailed, you deserve more recognition buddy i love watching your nerd videos ahahaha they are my favourites. Awesome video as always!!
20k!! congrats!!!!
not sure if it was mentioned in the patch notes for heat dashes but she doesn't need to dash in weird wall angles anymore when heat dashing from sentai 3 into stomp ender. Applies everywhere.
You can still get the FDFA set up at the wall if you do [2,1] after DF1,2. They’ll be FDFA again after that
Gracias! I was a wee bit worried, My 2 mains are King and Reina, but more than nerfs, like You said, these changes are highten the Skill level!
Am really happy you are going to stream 😭
Unsoku 4 is good to know because I can see being caught a tad more often.
Great breakdown.
She could already parry heat engages with her stance but now it looks like her forward dash parry works now too!
I think her setups are going to need work, unless they remain the same. I am thinking about learning her, but after the nerfs IDK. I she still worth it with the damage reduction?
Hey Mishima can you post combos on reina with the nerf and what to do and string mixup
It was a slight awkward moment adjusting, but once I figured out her manji kicks are still good at whiff punishing, Reina felt fine to me. Did really have to adjust my gameplan all that much.
After a week on this patch, I noticed something. I generally am performing at the same level in all my match-up, but I'm consistently winning way more mirror matches than before. This video foretold the future.
I'm excited for the streams! Let's keep the pro reina content going as well! The character is still strong!
They didn't fix the broken heat moves of dragunov, king, feng, xiayou and instead nerfed reina and hwoarang?? Seems obvious that they don't play their own game
not only do they not play the game, but theyre taking the criticism from twitter warriors, who are also not playing the game lol
@@TheNatos😂oh shoot, hope they can be more responsible in future updates...
Manji-geri, especially full crouch df4 will take some time for me to get used to.
Thank you for another great video. Now I just need to become a good Reina player to apply your tips 😂
I said that the day the patch came out if anything it helps because a lot of jnstances when I do a move and it leaves me in crouch I wouldn’t be able to block since the patch I haven’t been getting punished as much as
I agree with everything exept the the phantom hurtbox visual. That is really nasty. Is not only a nerf it is visualy incorrect, they took away part of her evasion that is something really cool about her as a character. I could understand a demage nerf but this? nop i do not like it at all. Yes the ones who use her can adapt but at the end of the day the adaption ends up being the same as with no adaption just there was bringed to us an unecesary scale in dificulty than is not visualy shown. Olso having crouching status for all those moves was fun because of the transition into different stances to access more moves, and with out that crouching status part of the fun was taken away.
Better nerf her demage with those moves but keep her evasive.
Manji kick is one of my MAIN tools to stop people abusing their fast/OP high. It made them paused and fear to do that again. I can of course use other tools but nothing as effective as this one. Anyone hit by manji kick KNEW they screwed up because you visually see Reina DUCKED very low under your attack and kick you. Now that bamco robbed the crouch state, people doesn't have much to fear anymore knowing that you can interrupt it mid animation or at least trade blow with it. This is really BS change.
What do you mean? This move was a robbery by itself, she could "option select" any jab extension and launch everything just because she is Reina. Doesn't matter if I did 1,1,2 or 1,2,2 or 1,2,4,3 or 1,2,[2,3] or even a single 1 or 1,1 with Kazuya she could launch all of those options and still be -14 which is launch safe from most characters. If you were actually good at it and were not abusing this then you can still use the same strategies with FC df3 which is pretty much the same but -17, or make people stop abusing their fast/OP highs the classic way: duck and punish like the rest 30 characters.
@@georgegkoumas5026 What? Reina DOESN'T have any decent launcher from crouch position, only this move which isn't even fast at 15f. Many characters have faster launcher on crouch. Even Kazuya has 13f twin piston that's very safe on block (-5, -12) that you can visually confirm and have option to stop at first hit. Reina have to commit otherwise she get punished or even launched on block. Now with the robbery not only she had to commit but also risking counter hit on the middle of its animation, negating its usefulness. This move isn't OP in any metric yet bamco still nerf it.
@@user-zd3rn2ri3z ??? No decent launcher from crouch position??? Hwoarang and Devil Jin are forced to use unsafe SCREW launcher to punish -15 lows and they also get interrupted by high strings, but Reina had a full high crushing i15 unlaunchable (by most) launcher. I am not saying that it's top 5 or anything but it is DEFINITELY above average and above decent. Nerfing this was not needed to balance the character in high level but it will surely make the character feel more fair, given that she is a Mishima and she sould not be that evasive.
Heihachi was the one with no decent WS/FC launcher, he had an unsafe i17 WS3,3+4 so he could pretty much reliably punish only sweeps and even that was something he got at Tekken 7 SEASON 4.
ALSO Reina can go into heat from crouch position at i13, meaning that she can also heat dash. She can punish every single low Jin does except d4 with a heat engage or 50-60 damage heat dash into stomp combo.
The fact that Kazuya, who is famous for having great punishment has a better punish at crouching -13 doesn't mean anything, and even then Reina can full launch at crouching -15 while Kazuya is forced to use the now nerfed twin pistons for a SCREW launch or do the extremely hard WS EWGF.
Edit: forgot to mention Steve... He might have the worst launch punishment in the game, crouch or not (at least he has good damage on fast punishes).
@@georgegkoumas5026 Well you said yourself this isn't an OP moves (in the sea of OP moves many char have, which many still doesn't get nerf), which by the way isn't affecting high level gameplay (most pros not touching Reina because of her lack of lows, hard to pilot, and obvious ff2 nerf), and which is why this hurt so much that it get DOUBLE nerf, not only removing the crouch status but also expand the hurt box, making opponent attack impossible to whiff. AND it span 13 moves. No other characters get this ridiculous amount of double nerf, in which the move itself isn't OP.
I'm okay if they add 1 frames of recovery or startup, but removing crouch status that's inherent with this moves evasive animation, and which makes this moves effective? That's just plain robbery. Ask Xiaoyu player what if their normal phoenix stance (not even the Butterfly which is SUPER crouch) robbed out of crouch state. There will be RIOTS because there are many pros using Xiaoyu. That's what happened with Manji kick. This all is just ridiculous.
@@user-zd3rn2ri3z Reina is NOT Xiaoyu and her gameplay was NOT about being in a crouch state, it was just an annoying bonus she had on top of being a Mishima. She is also the most played Mishima in top play because of the fact that she is easy, has annoying stuff that keeps the enemy in check and can actually mix with lows, because unlike Heihachi she has a functionalbe hellsweep with frametrap stance transition. I don't even know what is the "double nerf" you mention but if it's about ff2 this needed to go to. As a Mishima she was supposed to be weak to SSL, but for some reason her heat engaging good range stance pressure fast mid could track that, putting everyone into a mix for simply existing in the game. Hellsweep-ff2 was a real mid-low SWL-SWR 50-50 mixup on a character that's supposed to have strong and safe mids in order to have no mixup game.
Also a move doesn't need to be top 1 or anything to be nerfed, moves can also be mediocre and deserve nerfs, it they are on a character that shouldn't be. Just imagine if Devil Jin got a Mishima f4, even if it was the worst f4 it would still be too good because it's on Devil Jin.
from df1,2 heatdash you get a guaranteed 2~1 that will flip to FDFA and you can go for WS 44 for the same setup although it can be backrolled and whiff
What annoys me is that they are always trying to promote character expression then they go and nerf one of her main unique attacks. Now it visually looks stupid
Fortunately your Reina tutorials crafted me into a non-lazy Reina player, so I have you to thank for this update not affecting me much.
I played some Tekken last night Reina felt the same as she did for me pre patch. Saw a lot of Steve's though. And watching Paul act like Steve was terrifying. :P
And I was wondering yesterday that how I got hit in the air .... Thx for great clip btw , I'll just adjust and like you said everything is still great (but honestly .. all Rolling or EWGK for me just got punished by random high hits in the air - - .... That was really frustrating for me
Wait so when she’s rolling, she can get hit?
This guy the mishima goat!
And now Reina heaven wrath 1 now cannot break armor move. Idk why they not put it in the patch note. But I used I'd regularly before and now not working
... you're gonna have to explain this one to me, my friend.
... it's a tracking high attack. How does it break armor...?
@@Haku15Mitarashi it does before this patch, i used it to king/dragonuv/azucena/victor even when jack use armor. it will stun them
but today when i use my rotation. useless now
i think we can check a pro player highlight, like yagami sometimes use this trick too
I used it really often because when in that situation, they option is low duck to escape hw1 + any mix up.
Now they can just simply armor and that our choice using low kick or instant grab
Barely even registered that a nerf even happened. Most of the stuff that was hit was in ways I didn't use them for
This the time real Reina mains start showing up
Finally, I've been sitting on the sidelines waiting for this moment.
I think it’s more right to say this is when the real masochist show up.
Nah, I'm not playing this shit. I didn't abuse the moves that were nerfed but nerfing all of uns stance was lazy on top of it looking stupid.
@@Gauze-sb2fo Stop lying. You abuse these moves, right? That's why you are angry.
@@jkdman2007no it's a annoying cheap move but adding an invisible hitbox is not a good solution
Nerfed Reina but Jin is still op with way more mix and one of the best ws two in the game. It’s still a joke to me. We have to work way harder
Honestly, the three nerfs are a great trade for the character bug fixes and system mechanic updates. Excited to play the game as a Reina player now :)
The thumbnail ❤
Nerfs are good & all I guess, but the loss of visual clarity is pretty jarring here. These are attacks where she crouches even lower than aop, but has no evasiveness now? It's an amazingly lazy change
Just figured out that reina and kazuya can electric wc df4 if you skip the down input and just do the forward and down forward input. This wont be practical unless you are knee but its cool to know.
This is just how I always electric... Most of the time the down-forward input includes a down, at least on stick. But once in a while you get that frame-perfect version.
Fr tho, didn't affect my gameplay. Tbh, it got improved with the df+1,2, Heatdash and df+3+4 CH, and f+1+2, 3 CH buffs
I don’t understand why nerf a character who has low win rates and is already difficult to use in the first place?
Man you the goat
Reina's ff2 could already be sidestepped, just extremely inconsistently. The issue was that her horisontal hitbox was way too fat.
This "nerf" to ff2 is more like a fix in my opinion (reina main btw)
Oh cool I get to keep playing her the same way. Df1,2 nerf hurts a little but it's not that big a deal.
2:18 how to do it electric?
Timing. Like right as the stomp hits, click the follow up
A lot of this is stuff I never did in the first place, so no major loss. Reina getting hit by stuff that's four feet above her body is incredibly silly, though.
Us reina players are the goats all of us are goated we gotta stick together. Love the vid thanks for in depth explanation of everything i appreciate u
Tekken is getting so much better with these balances, love to see how this unfolds as we go onward :). Looking forward to watching your stream! :D
What text to speech thing are you using?
ElevenLabs 👍
I always thought this was his real voice. I'm stupid.
You need to do a counter video for Steve. He’s become a monster
That's nothing from fair men, they take a martial art who's purpose is to dodge high offense by having this weird kick. And they make it sensible to high. Its visual nonsense and kills an very interesting and big part of the identity of Reina. I would have prefere more punitive frames on those mooves than changing their purpose.
Guys. You do not need FCDF4 to crush highs. WS 3+4 is fully invincible to highs and gives you +14. Yes. You can electric for a launch. Damage is a little scaled but it’s zero risk.
I didn't even check Reina's nerfs. I was dealing with Nina's nerfs and Jack's buffs. Glad Reina isn't too affected
Cant stop the Church of Reina, we'll continue to strive
I'm a bad Reina player and TBH subjectively she feels kinda bad to play now. I don't know if I'll switch but I'm trying Lili out.
Damn it Mishima Complex keeps finding ways to make Reina look cute. 😤
❤
I really don't like them removing crouching from moves that are clearly crouching. Doesn't feel right. If it needed a nerf, touching the frames would've been much better.
It’s either they should’ve nerfed Reina’s fcdf dmg or make it super minus for launch punish. Not this freakin high pokes that track crazy while crouching
honestly I rarely used those manji kick gimmicks anyways so I lose nothing lole
Not losing hope at all that's our queen.
I think the general consensus is that the nerfs weren't that bad overall but the Unsoku 4 nerf was asinine.
Crazy how 1 frame change can be a huge nerf for a character. Eddy’s b3,3 when from -14 to -15 now he’s launch punishable & every heat smash will land. Brutal.
The changes to raiden actually good in my opinion it makes me use her other tool like b2 a lot more, a not make me overly rely on ff 2 all the time, I especially dislike this move in mirror matches when I don’t use it often and it becomes a game of will she go low or will she go high or will she grab (enemy Reina) and it gets frustrating that we don’t go for more of Reina tools which are a lot more fun other than just spamming Raiden.
FF2 could be side stepped before but almost no one did it. If you use it well, the opponent should almost never be able to side step it even now. Nothing has changed with this move. Reina can beat or trade favorably with every option from FF2 with B1+2.
The good news for me is I could never use the FC manji kick anyway so I probably wont notice a difference lol
Its almost a buff, since now she can break floors properly with some of her grabs and counter hits.
I know the nerfs are there but didnt even notice them.
The only thing what happened is i know when ppl will step and jab now.
But the crouch change is just dumb. These moves are meant to evade. Thats the core of taido so they failed hard.
Played her yesterday. Doesn't feel any different to me although my playstyle is pretty dry. Despite that, I'll definitely be reminding my friends that she's been nerfed.
My baby
I guess it matters to me since I’m a bad Reina player
That Onsuko 4 nerf hurts smh
"someone said... what about all us bad reinas out there lmao" wp sir.. but no reina is bad.. your time has just yet to come! keep fighting!!
As a reina main. She not same you can literally side step both when it comes to her F2,3 it happen 15times yesterday.
Her F2,3 hitbox been reduced. So with it came to combos. It drop rate is awful.
F,D1 hitbox reduced. See it hit the body during air time in combo and it's doesn't confirm time to time.
I did about 11hrs with her and she really not great 😕 and yes there a problem.
aw man, i relied way too much on reads with WC d/f+4, i've already been caught a few times by highs
i'd rather they just nerfed her whiff recovery and ridiculous wall carry instead, ngl
I'm not a Reina player and still think this is bullshit.
If her hurtbox is so hugely disproportionate, characters and moves like yoshi rising knee who can pass under a medium with millimetrical precision will feel really unfair
Man I loved f2 into UNS 4 :(
I used beat so many players with B+4 with high crushing property and I would work every time
Still should, it wasn't nerfed.
Yea her sen 4 is fubar. It gets sweeped mid air. Her hitboxes are effed
I'm still a scrub with Reina, but I'm glad to see these nerfs don't effect me at all
Kazuya: Hold these...
*Hands patch 1.05 to Reina
Reina: What am I suppose to do with this?
Kazuya: Figure it out...
*Kazuya flies away.
Reina: NAN DATO!?
They just can do perfect balance of the game. What they do is make a strong character later nurf him, buff other and so on, and so on until they release the next game.
b4 still high crushes btw
Reina is fine she plays essentially the same I don’t like b4 or uns 4 change it’s redundant, but fc4 makes sense it shouldn’t be a os to any high string situation, that was just absurd, i honest only want one change and I’ll be fine please PLEASE make f2,3 into a counter hit the 3 input should 100% be a ch or give her a tailspin with back 2 🙏🏽😭
True Reina mains will persevere
She's still a really strong characters. At least she's not Devil Jin. In the next patch theyre removing his arms and legs.
If they wanted to make Reina less oppressive they should have done different changes than just making moves completely unviable
Not a fan of balancing the game using unrealistic and inconsistent visuals. I'm sure they could think of a better solution if they just put a little more effort into it.
Love these changes. Doesn't change the way you play the character but instead changes the skill demand to make the character work. Braindead flowcharting shouldnt be rewarded and frankly, we had it a lil too easy. That King clip truly hurts my soul 😭 but weeding out players who rely too much on "cheese" will always be a good thing to me
It does change the way you use the character when key moves are no longer viable in certain situations. Flowcharting is not bad in and of itself. It allows you to shift your brainpower away from what you're doing and more on what your opponent is doing. So much of Tekken is information gathering and pattern recognition. Flowcharts are a great way collect information on your opponents play style and habits and adjust accordingly. They are not meant to be relied on completely but they are useful and all good players have them.
Honestly she feels the same, no major nerfs imo
I feel like they are altering her identity a bit from the initial trailer. When I first saw the trailer, I thought she was going to be an evasive mashima, but they have been making her less evasive more and more. At this point, she is less evasive than paul. I get it, though. She is a good character overall, with nothing too overpowered, just requires skill. Overall, my favourite character added to tekken 8 as a whole.
True but compare that to her already strong pressure her evasiveness taking a hit Abit is still fair imo her she has the strongest movement of all the Mishimas @@waleedbinshabbir1542
Same for djin players. But many whine because they cant spam ff2 anymore
Comparing the best Mishima losing some cheese with Devil Jin getting nerfed again is pretty wild
@@georgegkoumas5026 But the point is still the same. You cant spam ff2 anymore
@@crazy911wman yeah but he doesn't have much without it, he lost his pokes and most of his mids got nerfed. His ff2 was the only good mid he had and even that was not even close to be the best demon paw.
It's understandable that they had to nerf the pushback as they did to every other demon paw, but they did not even try to fix the range a bit or touch the character at all.
You are comparing Devil Jin having one of his most important moves nerfed again with Reina losing some cheesy shit that good players barely used anyway.
Dont worry guys, most of the tekken players wont even lab what they can really do to hurt the newly nerfed Reina. We just have to be aware of what we can and cannot do and raise our skill level around it.
But deep inside I hope that in a year the will come back on this nonsense. Most of these moves are litteraly crouching moves visually but you can get countered by a jab to the f**** "head", excuse me, "air"
I like her. She cool
Seeing so many Reinas going "she's FINISHED" because they can't autopilot their range 3 party starter was so embarrassing.
Honestly down forward 4 is still really good. The patch notes had me bugging for nothing
REINA BOYS STILL EATING