Is steel real? What makes a hardtail "supple"? Comparing steel, aluminum, and carbon frame materials
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- čas přidán 5. 06. 2024
- Steel can be an incredible frame material, but it can also be an awful choice when not designed correctly. In this episode we debunk the myth that steel is real and that it's always the better choice over aluminum, carbon, or titanium. Did you learn something valuable? If so, show your appreciation and support this channel by becoming a Patron today: / hardtailparty
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Carbon is an exciting material for hardtail riders, and builders are learning how to maximize its ride characteristics all the time. It can be made overly stiff (like the Specialized Fuze Carbon), or super flexy (like the Trek supercaliber and the SC Chameleon). My full-suspension bikes utilize carbon leaf springs, and they design flex into these carbon leaf springs to provide a unique, tuned ride experience. I think we're going to be seeing a lot of exciting things with carbon in the future (and hopefully a decrease in price).
Titanium, when done right, can feel just like steel, at a lighter weight. But you gotta pay to play. Ti is expensive and difficult to weld, and ti frames are NOT cheap. Titanium also doesn't rust, so you don't need to paint it.
Steel (chromolly) can have a wide variety of ride characteristics depending on the frame design. If not treated, it will rust. It can be made into bikes that are quite light, but lately we've been seeing some really heavy steel frames, because companies know steel sells at the moment, regardless of how well it's built. A well-built steel frame is a thing of beauty. I wonder why steel full suspension bikes are popular? I'd rather have aluminum, as it's cheaper, stiffer, doesn't rust, and lighter. With a full suspension, you don't need the supple feel of steel, as the shock does that...
Aluminum is typically the cheapest material for frames. It can't be bent or shaped quite as easily as steel or carbon, but with the right designer, you can still get a fantastic ride quality out of an aluminum bike. However, that's the excption rather than the rule. Most aluminum bikes end up being overly stiff. As a material, aluminum can't return back to its shape as easily as steel or ti. Think of a paperclip that you bend back and forth. You can only bend it so many times before it breaks. When bent like a paper clip, aluminum breaks sooner than steel and ti.
For more education on the topic of frame materials, see this: www.bigshark.com/articles/which-frame-material-is-the-best-pg531.htm
Oooooo a middlechild battle, that should be interesting. As far as frame material, ride what you can afford and what feels good, in my opinion
This is gold! I've never learned that much about frames in such a short time.
What a great talk on frame materials! I love that you emphasized frame and tubing design, something I knew about but maybe not prioritizing enough. Also rider weight which I didn't think about. I've thought about this topic alot when I was researching my hardtail purchase. (ended up with a steel Stanton Slackline, which I love and will likely keep forever) One thing I would add is that even though frame design is probably the most important factor, there are inherent qualities to the materials that allow for more or less suppleness. For instance, comparing aluminum to steel, steel is much stronger and more resilient (able to flex and still maintain structural integrity), giving it more potential for springiness. This is why springs of all kinds are mostly made of steel, and not aluminum, because once aluminum flexes, the integrity of the metal is compromised, not so with steel. For this reason, aluminum frames have to have a certain degree of stiffness to ensure that it maintains structural integrity. Therefore if the frame is built well, I would venture to say that using steel would give you greater potential to build suppleness into the frame vs aluminum. I believe this is even truer for titanium, so you can have a very supple AND strong frame using titanium. Love the channel, keep up the great content and hope it takes off for you.
Hi Steve. I bought a nordest bardino 2 frame and built it up. You were right with the geometry of the cheaptrick. it didnt realy fit witch reach and stack.
now i am happy,i found my bike,a steel nordest bardino 2, fantastic!!!
I ride a trek Stache 7, and i love it!!, and i am a pipe fitter as well, i use to weld light speed bicycles when i was laid off from a shut down
Thanks for such an interesting topic. I rode a 26” steel mountain bike for years and still bring it out on occasion. I believed in the steel is real ethos, then I discovered 27.5+ hardtail bikes, hmmm. I’ve evolved from a size too small alloy Honzo (that I absolutely loved), then I rode a correct sized alloy Fuse. For me it’s perfect, and I experiment with air pressure in the tyres to suit the conditions. Big tyres and hardtails with good geometry are just about the best thing I’ve ever ridden in mountain biking.
Steel is much tougher than aluminum. This is a physical property of steel. Steel is also stronger than aluminum.
I had a 2021 27.5 fuse, I was disappointed, I don't think I gave it enough time to get used to the slacker geometry, and the size of it. I've got a 29er now as it was cheap, and it feels more responsive than the fuse, but more stable at speed. My previous 2011 cube xc 26" was far smoother than the fuse over the bumps. The fuse felt big and soft, but didn't have the grip, handling or comfort I was expecting from the big wheels and tyres, and modern suspension and geometry.
@@vespachecki have a medium 2021 fuse 27.5+ and love it. I am 5'9" after breaking back, long torso short legs. I test rode a large too. Felt like a limo in comparison for me.
This makes a lot of sense and such an interesting topic. For the last 3 years I have been riding a Salsa Timberjack Aluminum and I thought it was completely normal that I was getting bounced around on it (for reference I'm a bigger ride +250lbs). But this week I have been demoing a Surly Karate Monkey and I never knew a hardtail could be so comfortable. In this case I'm digging Steel.
...because steel is real. 😎
I've sworn off carbon & aluminum forever. Now, I'm only going to ride steel. I'll try titanium to see if it's worthy of the praise it gets, but stainless steel frames are just as durable and a lot less to build up and are stiffer and more comfortable. Titanium is going to have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to get me to jump onto that bandwagon.
I love steel and some of the I've ridden were made from Tange Prestige/variants, True Temper Tt-lite, Columbus Cyber, Ritchey Super Logic and Reynolds 853. Having a bridgeless chainstay and monostay seatstays on one of them was quite nice.
Lots of knowledge here. Good video, very informative.
All my frames are steel, but it’s attributed to the reputation and artistic properties of a reputable builder, in my case, Cameron Falconer, who builds frames to specifically ride to your style and body type. Both my Falconer frames are baby smooth and never a disappointment to ride. As you reference, its all about the builder and experience behind the art of frame building. Trade off is cost, but 100% worth every penny if you enjoy and love the ride quality.
Are you going to review the marin San Quentin 3 ? It would be cool if you did;-)
Awesome video as always! 👌 I cheaped out last year bought an aggressive (or what everyone now calls, “hardcore hardtail”) aluminum hardtail, Marin San Quentin 2. I put 2.8 size on that bike with Pike fork then I took it to Santa Cruz Mountains. 😐 That frame was stiff AF! It felt like an over inflated plus tire and I was bouncing all over the place! Couple of months later, I bought a Guerilla Gravity Pedalhead and moved the components over using the same tire psi. Took it back to Santa Cruz Mountains and, wow! 😲 That frame is so supple. You can really feel how the rear stays are absorbing those stings especially when I do some of the drops (not to flat) and the landings were so smooth! I couldn’t believe it!
I also have a 2010 Niner MCR with Crest wheelset. That bike is nice and supple but its more of an XC bike. Other bikes are the On-One 456 Summer Season & 45650b. Those bikes are also supple but not as supple as the Niner. Definitely not like the Pedalhead.
I did not expect to hear that Chameleon is supple. I know some aluminum are supple. I read the Nukeproof Scout is more supple than some steel frames but the Chameleon? 🤔
I almost bought one too, but the stack was way too low for me. I felt super hunched over, and I had to side up to a large to feel right on it. It felt super awkward to me. Even though it was 60% off, and it was worth the price just for the parts, I passed on it
Well done... 👍🏻I ridden all bikes in all materials.... Carbon, Steel, Aluminum, Ti they all ride differently.. My favorite Aluminum HT is my Schwinn HG it fast and but completely compliant. I got Easton UltraLight Tube Yeti and Rocky Vertex Both ate fast but brutal. Ti Voodoo is a dream supple and stiff. Rocky 853 tubes bike is awesome... All retro HT rides...
Can’t wait how the Switch9er 4130 I just ordered will feel coming from a Slackline 535 Gen2
So much sense here. Good work
Steve, you have some real good advise and wisdom here. I built up a china carbon 27.5 non-plus hardtail with high end parts. I absolutely hated the way it rode. So bone-jarring stiff. I even thought my SID was broken. So I took it apart, sold the frame, and put the parts on a new Soma Riff (steel hard tail). What a difference!
Soma makes some cool bikes! A lot of people write off hardtails because they've only ridden bone jarring stiff frames. Not all hardtails have to beat you up. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Nice. I’ve always had (in the past) steel hardtails and just thought it was a given that aluminum was harsher. Good to learn better.
your spot on, i remember riding a mid 90's GT Zaskar -6061 Aluminum and man that was the stiffest, harshest ride, i went on to shy away from anything aluminum for a long time. Then i rode a more modern Stumpjumper w/ Specialized M frame and man it felt smooth and comfortable, two totally different designs blew my mind and made me rethink the material
The 90s Zaskar LE was my dream bike. Funny enough, I just picked up a '94 karakoram yesterday and I love it even more than the zaskar.
Just got my Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead. I am transitioning to mountain biking, its been a blast so far.
Welcome to the mtb family. I hear that's a really fun bike. Enjoy it, and welcome to the channel.
You bring up some good points, right now I'm trying to decide which way to go in terms of frame materials and whether or not it should be full squish or hardtail. I keep leaning to hardtail custom steel. I rode a bontrager for years before going to full suspension something about the simplicity of a hardtail keeps drawing me back
Greetings from Germany for doing this High quality content!
Perfect how you basically say how each person will see a bike different. I had multiple people tell me, a while back, to not try carbon frames cause they are stiffer.. Also, 29's would be better for me. I can understand why, though, knowing my condition. However, carbon feels, in general, better on my joints. Also, 27.5 feels better. Oh, I was recommended longer frames. So, I like the opposite of what people suggest. I have a hardtail background since the late 80's. I'm used to a "smaller" feeling bike that I can throw around. Wouldn't mind trying some hardtail bikes and see how they feel. So, go out and try bikes before you buy! Glad I did!
I rode a Jamis Dragon slayer for 5 years and was a nice ride , it was a large and I weigh 215.
Also had an old Jamis Dragon but to small for me , that was a nice soft ride , 853 Reynolds tubing.
I hadn't a clue any of this stuff very informative thank you. I ride an aluminum HT xl frame one of Norco's 2018 models I'm not sure what I'm suppose to feel, to myself it feels nimble and quick compared to when i rode bikes in the mid 90s to 2002 those bikes felt heavy n hard pedaling at times. I am interested in the Norco torrent you rode a while back that is the kind of bike I'd like to ride. 👍
Rode an Ally Dartmoor hornet and it was like riding a sledgehammer. On a CroMo Commencal now and it rides soooo much nicer, flex in the chainstays helps a lot. Both bikes made for the same kind of riding.
Thanks for this vid, very informative
Very insightful video! Thanks
Great overview and great explanations on the frame materials and build details. Personally I’ve spent many years owning and riding aluminum, steel and Ti hardtail’s. I haven’t been on some of the newer hydro-formed aluminum or high end carbon hardtail’s. I completely agree that “steel is real” is just a branding thing and I also think high end Reynolds,Tange and True Temper doesn’t mean that those steel frames are going to feel better, it’s truly dependent upon other factors like you mentioned. I’ve owned 2 Sir9 Reynolds 853 frames, both full rigid. The older had a steel fork and it was real supple feeling. The newer had the new Reynolds DBZ steel and a carbon fork. It was much stiffer. Last year I bought the new Esker Hayduke frame, not the new Sir9, it felt supple but not as much flex as the original Sir9. Anyway, obviously the Geo and build dynamics play a big part of the feel. I like my Ti frames but that’s another story.
Spot on, I agree 100% I rode the heyduke last year. I think it'd s decent platform for bikepacking, but as a trail bike it didn't really wow me. It wasn't as supple as I was hoping either.
Good video Steve! Thanks for the break down and knowledge 👍
I’m very happy with my Ritchey ultra seams very balanced and responsive I’m running 27.5 2.6
I picked up a Breezer Squall when performance bike went out of business. AL frame, super stiff climbs like a billy goat. And for the riding I do (lots of flow) it really performs. Of course at 240 pounds the stiffness is a plus!
Nice! There were some great deals to be had at that blowout sale. I almost bought a bike then too.
I just purchased a Cotic Soul 5th Gen frame (2018), and I really like it. Do you have recommendations, insight or opinions on this particular frame? Thanks
Great video! Keep up the awesome content. I just purchased my first steel hardtail last week- it's a Niner SIR 9 2018 model. I'm pretty stoked on it but I don't have much to compare it to because I'm pretty new to mtbing. Your channel was a big inspiration for my recent purchase. Thanks for everything you do! 🙏
Congrats on a new hardtail, that's great!
I preordered a RSD Middlechild aluminum so keeping my fingers crossed that it rides reasonably good! I almost ordered the steel one, then you replied to a comment I made in an earlier video about steel and said basically what you said in this video so you got me thinking.
I haven't ridden the aluminum one yet, but I think it's going to be the best selling MC yet. I can't wait to get my hands on one and share what I think of it.
Another reason I almost got the steel middlechild is because I didn't like the build of the aluminum one. So I called RSD and talked to Alex and he told me that I could get the aluminum middlechild with the steel bikes build so that's what I plan on getting!
@@akbiker9694 whoa, that's awesome he did that for you. In my experience, the steel mc isnt super supple. It's built to be super strong and handle anything you can throw at it, but it's a little stiff. I still need to ride the aluminum one, bit if it rides like my aluminum sergeant, it'll be great, especially with plus tires.
Love the video, very good advice! Any chance you'll review or demo a Niner Sir 9?
Yes. Soon.
I've owned quite a few production and custom steel hardtails. Both 26er and 29er. My custom Ted Wojcik steel 29er is easily the best bike I've ever ridden. I initially went steel then custom steel because I'm 6'2 and 240lbs. I was flexing frames and breaking chains like crazy. Especially aluminum frames. My Ted has a double butted Columbus Life main triangle with Columbus triple butted chainstays that Ted said were exceptionally rare to acquire so he recommended them. The bike was built for east coast woods riding so its aggressive with a relatively short wheelbase. Its both responsive and smooove. Just an absolutely beast on the trails! Had it since 2006 and its still perfect for ME.
Nice video thanks, as a 250 pound guy looking for a new aggressive hard tail found it helpful.
I’m tending towards a Chromag, but maybe should look at the Santa Cruz as much cheaper in New Zealand
The head angle will be significantly different between the two. Check out rsd bikes for a chromag style but a lot cheaper.
hardtail party did have a look at rsd. But being 6ft 5 think they might be a bit small. But thanks for reply and will be following your channel now on
CHUMBA - my Stella is so choice don't know how they do it but it has all the feelings one loves in a steel rig - perfect SS for me - the Sendero looks super dope...
I've always wanted to try a chumba
You are so right you really need to test ride all bikes you are interested in if possible to really see how it feels to you and if it suits you and your riding style thank you for spelling this out for people to understand
What’re some good steel frames you recommend off the top of your head? I see and know you’ve enjoyed your RSD MiddleChild.
Great info, thanks! Did that RSD Middle Child Aluminum ride happen? I would LOVE to hear your ride report on that frame/bike!
Nope, I never received one for review. I wonder if they all sold out too fast.
@@hardtailparty I guess so, they're not even available for pre-order at this point.
Have you been able to do that Chameleon/Timberjack shootout? I'm very interested in both of these bikes for '23!
I enjoy listening to someone who has actually has ridden a bunch of hardtails than the internet troll saying that they should make it in a different way. Great vid. Thanks. I have owned a hand full of hardtails starting in the early 90's. I still own my 1994 Kona hot. One other thing is steel is cheaper to fix as well. I broke my 2015 Ritchey P-29er last year. No help from the manufacture. I also am enjoying my first fat bike fully rigid this year as well.
agreed. Steel and ti are often thought of as repairable, while aluminum is usually thought of as disposable. Fortunately, I've never cracked either.
You 100% are the guy who should be building frames!
which hardtail is in your opinion the best choice, from material and from the frame geo?
Any opinions/experiences on the Production Privee Shan? It's been my dream bike frame for a while now and I'm curious what you think of a steel frame that's designed to actively utilize the materials flex-ability.
It's been a dream bike of mine as well, but sadly I've never seen one in the flesh. There aren't many in the states. A lot of steel frame manufacturers claim that they build compliance into their frames, but I haven't felt that those claims are true in a lot of cases. I'd want to ride it for myself and see if I can feel the compliance or not. It sure looks nice though.
I'd love to try a moxie pipedream too... And a Sterling... And some of ragley's latest bikes, and the new steel orange, and a kingdom, and the list goes on and on. The UK seems to have a ton of boutique steel Hardtail manufacturers.
Even when a frame is made from Reynolds 853, for example, it doesn't mean it's guaranteed to ride in a certain way. It's just another way to market and bring to light who the tubing came from. Reynolds makes fantastic tubing, but that's just part of the equation when it comes to frame design.
I currently have the dartmoor hornet. That beast doesn't flex. I can feel all the rough bits on my legs. But i love it. Being heavy i feel more secure and confident about that frame.
Yeah, that looks like a super stiff frame. But the geo looks fun!
Makes me even more excited for my Pipedream Moxie!!!
That's a bike I've been wanting to try for a long time. I've heard great things about them.
@@hardtailparty I just bought a mk3 moxie and can say it.s an incredible hardtail, very capable.
This was so informative! You can never have too many bikes, but at least one of them must be a hardtail. I love mine and find it so much fun on the less chunky trails I ride - it feels more responsive and challenges me to be a better rider. I hope to get to the point that I can differentiate between various hardtail offerings! I am going to be at the Sedona BF in couple of weeks - what hardtail would you recommend taking out as a demo? I am 6"1 and 190lbs without gear. Thanks mate - keep up the good content 👍
I'm not sure which hardtails will be there. I'll be walking around and leading a few group rides (on my hardtail). I'll also be demoing bikes there. Check out the reeb tent, they're making some sweet hardtails these days. The redikyelous is a super fun hardtail. Why will probably also be there. They have a cool ti trail hardtail called the s7. It's not super aggressive, but great for mellow trails. I'll have my eye out for any hardtails I can find there. Say hi if you see me.
@@hardtailparty I keep my eye of for you and hopefully join a group ride 😁🤙.
@@MrPete4az Friday 10am at the taileind booth. Saturday at 1pm at the club ride booth.
This one video solidifies your position as the HardTail whisperer.
Stanton slackline, just the best bike I've ever ridden, even compared to my Ibis ripmo. You could use terms like supple etc but really what makes it good is that you can follow people down techy rocky stuff who are on full sussers and smash down it with them. You know your on a hardtail, but you never feel out of control the frame takes enough of the hit that your not jarred and bumped off the pedals and it's just fun and really satisfying.
I've been hitting up Stanton to send me a slackline for review, but no word yet. I'd really like to try one.
Have you ridden the Nukeproof Scout? Or heard anything about how its made? I have one and love it but can't really compare it to anything. Thanks for the info!
No, I havent. There aren't many nukeproofs in the US. I'd love to try one though.
good video! Outside of RSD do you have any favorite steel HT's?
Yes. I actually prefer the ti rsd ocer the steel. There are a handful of steel frames I love, but it all comes down to where you ride and how you ride. I have a playlist of all the reviews I've done.
Thanks for the awesome videos. I love this channel. If you get time I'd be curious what you think of the Trek Stache? Thanks!
I think the trek stache is a really cool bike, depending on your trails and riding style. It's not quite aggressive enough for where I live, but for many parts of the country it's perfect. I'd be happy to make more recommendations based on more info like where you ride, what your riding style is, and what you're looking for in your next bike, etc.
@@hardtailparty Wow, super fast response man. I wasn't even really expecting a response at all so that's cool. Honestly, I was just curious as to your opinion. I watched your channel about mistakes when buying your first bike and I thought a lot of that summed up my experience exactly. Lol! Luckily I live next to a pretty good bike shop (Trek Dealership) in the West Phoenix valley so I think it went OK. I mostly ride in that area, like Estrella, White Tanks, Cave Creek, North Mountain, Skyline, etc. I have a Slash I picked up from a friend for more difficult trails, but I use the Stache for XC days. I was just curious as to your opinion on it, being a plus bike and all, and if you think it's a good fit for XC days in my area/trails? How do you feel about plus tires in general? Also, I tried the link to your merch, but it didn't work. Thanks!
Yes, the stache is a great bike for those trails. Lots of fun. A great all-rounder. I love plus tires, especially on a hardtail. They're not as fast or light as 2.4s, but they're sure fun!
I ride a Merida big 9 6000 2019 carbon frame and it has the “flex stay” system that flex the rear of the frame...you can really feel it and is very supple
Awesome, I love that concept! I am excited for the future of carbon hardtails. I think we can finally get light weight AND a great ride quality with engineering like this. Thanks for sharing your experience, I'd love to try one out
Really useful vid, thankyou
I totally agree. my alloy hardtail rode stiffer than so many carbon ones.
My Esker Hayduke has the right amount of flex built into it. I love it ❤ hardtailparty have you demoed one?
I'm glad you like yours. Yes, I demoed one but I didn't like it. I scrapped the review video for it because it was mostly negative. I agree, the frame didn't feel harsh, but the geometry made it ride pretty boring to me. But... if you love it, that's all that matters. I think it might make an interesting bikepacking bike. And keep in mind, just because I don't like a bike doesn't mean someone else won't love it.
@@hardtailparty booo negative reviews are the bestest
@@hardtailparty Overforking it may have changed you mind a little (and depends on what chainstay length it was running). Currently running it with 130 mm travel (and slammed chainstay), and it's so fun to flick around and climbs like a dream. Heard the same from dudes running 140. Material and quality wise, the frame is Ace.
Great Vid. Nothing beats riding a bike to see if you like it. - Can you review the Specialized Fuse Comp or base 27.5. As you know, companies don't like to demo hardtails. Being a 250lb (fat old man), I want a hardtail to simplify my life on the trail and I don't want to worry about a rear shock. I'll use my legs and line choice to get down the hill.
The new 2020 fuse looks a lot better than the old one. I don't love the old one. It beats you up, and the geo is still dated. Not super fun to ride. The new one looks fun. I'll see if I can get my hands on one for a review.
Excellent video. Rode bmx in the 70s chromoly molybdenum was it. My current hardtail is a 2017 Marin nail trail 6 size XXL. It's aluminum and rides excellent. I notice more pedal bob on my urban rides especially at higher speeds , than I remember feeling in my previous hardtails. The rims have onetwenty9 etrto stickers and I think that's where I'm getting the flex . It's more noticeable with higher air pressure. But could just be the frame. Love the bike. Eventually if I ruin a rim, I'll upgrade and that might give an answer to what is flexing.
Keep up the awesome channel. Ill get to South mountain and Sedona to ride eventually.
Awesome, glad to learn more about that bike, it's now on my radar thanks to you bringing it up. The thin seatstays look like they'll offer a really nice ride quality. Seeing that you're riding an XXL, I wonder if you're able to make those seatstays flex more than you're used to. They intentionally made the rear triangle thin so it would flex more. Probably great for smaller riders, but flexier for bigger guys. It could also be the wheels like you mention, but I'm betting it's the frame. It's probably perfect on the dirt.
@@hardtailparty it does do great on everything . I don't do so well on some steeper rock garden and double black, even on the full squish . So the bike handles everything ive thrown at it .
Hardtail words of wisdom, TY!
Very interesting observations and reasons involved with flex , suppleness etc. When you also throw in the equation of tyre size 2.25 - 3.00 this completely changes everything , then throw in Cush core which i found a game changer , does the world become round or flat lol
Agreed. I feel that the wider your tires are, the more you can get away with an overly stiff frame. There's still a difference, but even a stiff aluminum frame feels decent with 27.5x3.0 tires at 15 psi.
One thing you can't tune out with tires, however, is the way a jolt travels across the frame when you hit something sharp.
@@hardtailparty Yes Steve you have a good point, there are so many variables it opens up a can of worms, but your original diagnosis is spot on. I have a Norco 2020 Torrent 29r , the Cush core that i put in absorbed alot of shock and jolts, to the extent felt like a mini suspension !, or it could be just a placebo as it costs alot and i needed to justify this in my mind.
That new Norco looks sweet. I'd love to try one. Cush core makes such a difference on a hardtail, especially in rocky terrain! It's definitely not placebo, it makes a real difference. Tire pressure, rim width, rim material/build, and tire casing makes a huge impact too.
I'm riding a 2020 Norco torrent. I love it. I would like to see if you could test one out sometime and see what you think!
That bike has been at the top of my list to demo as well. It looks fantastic. I'll see if I can get ahold of one to review for the channel. Thanks!
I got the same bike...love it. Geo is absolutely spot on, bike climbs and descents like a champ. Frame is beautifully made and fells very natural under the rider. Point the bike up it GOES, point it down and it GOES. Norco nailed it with this one 💪
I was going to ask if your a welder I been recerching hardtail for about 5 weeks now and in the last week I got 80% of the questions I hand from your videos. The I'm on lockdown and can only search. I'm UA488 PF welder first thing I look at is the joint design and the weld
Great insights!
I really appreciate your review.. I sold my (alloy) full suspension because I love climbing and the shock below my saddle was so inefficient.. however I want a supple bike I can descend with without the rear shock.. I do not hit super technical trails on my downhills and then realized that I did not need that rear shock. I'm glad I made the choice I did but I'm still on the market for a hardtail that will suite my needs. Haven't decided what is best for me (carbon vs steel vs alloy)... I'm a petit female rider.. have a carbon road bike that I love climbing with.. just not sure yet what would be best for me on the dirt
It sounds like you'd be a perfect candidate for my bike consultation service over on Patreon. If that's not in the budget, check out my free reviews over on Hardtailparty.com
I’d certainly be curious to hear your take on the Salsa TimerJack. I picked up a frame for $450 last winter to build up a hard tail because I had components left over from cracked Trek Fuel Ex bikes. I had only been riding full suspension bikes, and wasn’t sure if I’d like a hard tail, but for $450 I figured I’d try it, and worst case it’d be a spring riding bike to hit the roads with before I could get my road bike out there. Well, last summer I spent more time on my hard tail than my full suspension, and while initially road fast, smooth single track I eventually took it on all my normal NorthEast trails... big rocks, roots, climbing up and descending down mountains and rock gardens. Literally fell in love with riding a hard tail. The nimble response of the bike on fast switchbacks or tight technical turns, along with feeling invincible on sketchy, hard climbs, were all things I didn’t completely expect. Yes, it does require more physical effort from you and you’ll feel more tired at the end of the day, but man...so much fun to ride.
For what it’s worth, I initially built the bike up with a left over 2X Shimano drive train, SLX brakes, and a 120mm Fox 32 fork. It’s since been upgraded with a 1x12 SRAM drivetrain, XT brakes, and a 130 Fox Performance fork. The 130 fork gave it a bit more slacker head angle, around 66, and it’s a great combination of tight, responsive steering that is still super stable on chunky descents. And tire pressure is key. For my 230 lb loaded frame I run 21/24 on 29 x 2.5/4 tires, and it’s just right. Higher pressures and you get a bit beat up with the bounce on the rear, and I find lower pressures the tires aren’t stable enough in the high speed corners.
I’ve been thinking about trying the new 2020 Specialized Fuse frame, $800.... but I’m honestly not sure if it would be an improvement over the TimberJack.
I have a 2020 Salsa Timberjack in for review right now. I just built it up last week, and today will be my first ride on it. It'll be a few months out, but I'll be filming a review of it. It looks like the 2020 timberjack is a little slacker than the earlier ones. They've also decided to only do higher-end builds on them. I've got some sneak peek videos on my Patreon Instagram account for my Patrons.
Have you ever tried plus tires on a hardtail? They make it feel like a totally different bike. Some people love it, some people don't. I love it. I've got a few videos about my thoughts on tire sizes.
I haven't ridden the 2020 fuse yet, but looking at the numbers, I'd expect the timberjack to be more fun at slower speeds and the fuse to be more fun at higher speeds (slacker head angle, longer chainstay, longer reach). I plan to review the fuse soon.
Typically the rule of thumb is that every 20mm more fork you put on, you lose 1* of head angle.
@@hardtailparty I wasn't aware of any frame changes for the 2020 models, but certainly look forward to your review. The geometry specs listed on the 2019 TJ's had a shorter crown to axle fork length (low 500's) than the 130mm Fox Performance fork (540), so I figured crudely I picked up a degree or so in slackness. Mostly am curious about your thoughts on the frame stiffness and how it compares to all the other frames you've ridden. Regarding plus tires... I also ride a Fat Bike, both in winter and summer months, and I've ridden a friends 29+ Stache. I thought the Stache was similar to riding a tubeless Fat Bike 4.5" tire, where the mass of the tires was really felt. Slow to spin up, not as nimble, monster truck over everything, etc. I'm not sure if I want to go much wider than the current 2.4/.5 setup, maybe a 2.6 would be fine, but a 3.0 (29+) isn't of much interest to me. Haven't really thought about a 650+, I really enjoy the 29er wheel size.
hardtail party - By the way, CZcams is lacking severely on Salsa bike reviews in general, so it’ll be good to see your review of the TimberJack.
Fantastic video!
No questions. Just a comment. I rode my first black diamond trail yesterday. I came across a hiking couple with a baby, who said they were mountain bikers, and the guy told me, he couldn't believe I was riding this trail with a mountain bike, and doing it on a hardtail! 😁🤙... yea a few people had their mind blown seeing ride this trail on a hardtail. I had a blast on this trail, but way too many hikers... I just had to share that.✌😎
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Everything I wanted to comment on you covered good job sir!
Thanks! It's surprising how much misinformation there is out there. I hope to debunk it one video at a time.
@@hardtailparty sometimes it's opinion based due to lack of exposure or an old bike shop guy not keeping up with new tech. I say study everything watch and read all reviews then go have fun
Agreed. With reviews, especially on CZcams, I'd be real careful not to pay too much attention to riders who have been riding less than 5 years and their reviews. There's good info in there, but many of them don't have the experience to distinguish what they're feeling, or the proper technique to get the most out of a bike. It always scares me when a beginner rider "reviews" a bike on CZcams, then just praises every aspect of it and uses terms like "confidence inspiring, nimble, playful, etc." without actually describing the ride characteristics of the bike. But, people are welcome to post whatever videos they want. I just hope viewers are cautious about paying attention to "reviewers" with limited riding experience.
@@hardtailparty I changed my watch reviews and throw everything out the window and go ride now I wish I wouldn't have 😂 don't forget some of the techno geeks say things work terrible when they may actually be very affective just not for them . I'm old school and it's cool that your telling the truth about things
@@mountainlessmtb9940 old school rules.
Great video. I ride a steel Stanton Switchback. With a 140mm DVO diamond. I love it. I’m curious if you’ve ridden one and what your thoughts were
I've been wanting to ride one of those for s long time. It looks beautiful, and I'm betting it rides great too. You don't see them much in the US. I wish Stanton could send me a demo bike to ride for s review.
Thanks for the vid. Have you tried Ritchey Ultra? What is your opinion?
Not yet. I'd love to try one.
what's your opinion on the On One Inbred 29er?
yeah i have a chromag chromemoly thats just sooo rough for general riding here in las Vegas for our gravel/rocky stuff.... i have ridden it with both 29r and 27.5+ but i got a replacement frame from marin thats aluminum and wonder if its worth building or not.
Chromags are pretty stiff.
I know what you are saying because my old Schwinn Homegrown feels very supple for an aluminum frame. I had a steel frame made from True temper ox platinum and was very stiff
I really enjoy your videos as a fellow hardtail retrogrouch. Can you get your hands on a Timberjack frame? I'm currently riding one and like it, but would love to hear your opinions on the frame.
I've been trying. I'll reach out to salsa again, but I haven't had luck getting in touch with them in the past.
@@hardtailparty Good luck! Keep up the great content.
A couple other UK bikes worth mentioning:
- Ragley Bluepig
- Cotic Soul
I've owned a cotic soul. I loved that bike. I have a ragley coming for review soon.
@@hardtailparty I've never ridden. Would love to try out. Only "downsides" to either that I see are the Soul has fairly traditional-ish geo and the Bluepig won't fit plus tires (limited to 2.4"). Guy Kesteven really seemed to enjoy the recently updated Soul.
I love my Timberjack. I would love to compare it to the Chamaleon!
Me too. The timberjack is one heck of a bargain. AND it has regular headset cups, so you could technically run an angleset with it (unlike the chameleon)
There is also the new Salsa Rangefinder that looks fun and slightly more budget Timberjack now that the Deore model is no more.
Mellissa Nash learn something new everyday. i’m going to look that up
@@charlesholland6851 bummer, it has a steeper head angle and longer chainstays than the timberjack. Should be great for bikepacking, but I have a suspicion the timberjack is more fun on trails. Unfortunately it also has a qr rear axle. :( Killer price point though.
That one was like announced last week.
Very interesting video 👍
Ok, I am pretty much sold on the RSD MiddleChild (thanks to your videos and for RSD sponsoring you). It has everything I am really looking for. The only question is, Steel or Aluminum?? I ride the same terrain as you do here in Phoenix, but not as crazy as you. I am coming from an old school ('93) steel bike. Compliance is important for the rough terrain here. Thoughts?? You are an RSD guy and you ride the same environment.
I no longer ride for RSD, but I still love their bikes. Their steel MC isn't super supple. I haven't ridden the aluminum MC yet. The Ti MC is where it's at if you can afford it. Lighter, no rust, and nice and comfortable to ride.
Please get your hands on a Timberjack! I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, and the Karate Monkey.
I'd love to try both of those someday.
I ride an 11 year old aluminum hardtail (SE Filth Flyer) and I don't ever feel beat up after the ride (from the bike). I really don't have anything to compare it to other than my kids new aluminum bike(Co-Op DRT 1.1). But I am also a weirdo that rides a slightly undersized dirt jumper as an "all mountain" bike.
My hardtail feels a lot like a dirt jumper with a dropper. I totally get it.
@@hardtailparty A dropper is definitely on my list but i need to swap my 1x9 to at least an 11 speed. Havasu trails are really pedaly.
I just bought a steel Big Honzo frame and have a full custom build on the way! I mostly went steel for the durability and I love the Honzo geometry. I haven't spent much time on hardtails in general but I think I'm gonna enjoy it! Not gonna lie though, my stomach dropped a bit when you said how stiff the steel Honzo is 😬 I'm not that concerned about it though. The build is sick and I think the geo is spot on for what I'm gonna be riding.
It's all good. If you love it, that's all that matters. And yes, those honzos are TOUGH! Glad to hear you have a build and geo that you're excited about. Also, don't forget that plus tires help take the sting out of a ride, so even if it is stiff, you can still get a softer ride with lower psi in those big 2.8 tires. Enjoy your new bike.
@@hardtailparty I'll let you know how I like it once I've got it built up! I grew up in Flagstaff and rode a lot there and in Sedona so it's been fun watching all your Sedona videos on trails that I'm familiar with. Keep up the sweet content!
@@Jdreynolds2 hit me up if you're ever back in the area, I'd love to join you on a ride.
And in the end... We're not curing cancer, we're just riding bikes. And as long as a bike brings a smile to your face, that's all that matters.
@@hardtailparty Oh I'm sure it'll bring plenty of smiles! And yeah I get back to Flagstaff a couple times a year cause I still have family there. I'll hit you up next time! You should make a video of some Flag trails! There's some world class stuff there, in my opinion.
Also just saw your edit on the first reply about the plus tires...I'm actually building it up as a 29er but I'm planning on 2.5 or 2.6" tires and I'm a lightweight so I can run low pressures regardless!
@@Jdreynolds2 once the snow melts, I'll definitely be featuring some flag trails a lot of stuff in flag is too gnarly to ride on my hardtail. I don't know the trails there well yet, but if like to.
Steel is having a big renaissance at the moment with Reynolds and Columbus even now still developing profile and butting of tube's
Thoughts on Surly's Karate Monkey? I'd be interested to hear how you feel this stacks up from a stiffness perspective to other frames on the market.
I haven't ridden one long enough offroad to make a judgment call there. Sorry.
I've been riding a 2017 karate monkey almost going a year now (it's my only bike atm), and it's set up fully rigid in 29er mode. Only other hardtail I've tested that comes close to the feel of it is a commencal meta ht. I imagine it will be more supple when i get the 27.5 x 3 wheelset on it. I hope the 2cents helps out. It's a little more challenging getting access to bikes here in manila, unlike over there. 🤙
Not the slackest, 68 deg I think. HP likes the slackeyssssss
I have a 2019 karate monkey. I like it and it will prob last forever, but it's pretty stiff and doesn't seem to turn to well, I think due to a pretty slack head tube, but that seems to be the norm nowadays. Like slacker is better.
Thanks for the clarification! As a mechanical engineer, where and how you add or remove material really makes all the difference. I don't design bike frames but have performed similar tricks on other projects.
I am riding a Trek ProCaliber aluminium frame, with a pivot between the top tube and seat tube to give it some extra compliance. Budget's a bit too tight for a full squish and in the Netherlands there's really no places where a full squish is necessary, so I was looking for a comfortable hardtail, for a tall and heavy rider. Trek's trick works generally well and I love my bike... but for very specific bump sizes it bucks me off the saddle instead of absorbing it, somehow very efficiently preloading the spring. So I also need to be critical of my tyre pressure. I am in the process of converting to tubeless hoping it will give that extra bit of compliance in the tyres so the frame only needs to absorb relatively small fractions of any bump.
I love trek's design on that frame. Really intelligent. Yes, I would expect tubeless will make a significant difference. I like to run the widest tires I can fit on a bike like that, so you can lower the pressure even more. A nice low pressure will make a world of s difference. You'll have to experiment with different pressured to see what works best for you.
I’ve got a Chromag Wideangle on the way. I’m curious to see how it feels after riding my Diamondback Sync’r for the past year 🤔
I'm going out on a limb here, but I'd expect it to feel a good deal more compliant/supple. Chromag has an excellent reputation. Let us know what you notice. Geo will probably be the biggest difference.
I've got a Chromag Rootdown and absolutely love it! Has that awesome direct feeling of hardtails, but doesn't feel harsh either. I demoed both the Sync'r and the Sync'r pro, and they both felt like incredibly harsh rides to me. Both frames drove every little bump directly into my feet. The Rootdown feels much more supple. I get all the trail feedback I need and want without any of that harshness. I haven't had the bike for long yet, but I'm so stoked I went with Chromag
Good choice with the rootdown, it's a nice frame. I agree, the Syncr is a harsh riding hardtail.
hardtail party UPDATE: Been riding the Chromag Wideangle for several months in MidTN....I love this bike! I’ve noticed that it is more compliant/supple than the alloy Sync’r. I’ve noticed that it holds a line better and doesn’t get bucked around as much on chattery, rooty, rocky sections. I was a little skeptical about “steel is real” but in this case...it is 😃
I'm so glad I ride solo, I never have the ego concerns raised about steel v. aluminum v. carbon. I know I cannot tell the difference, I'm not that sophisticated a rider. I just buy what I like. Great review.
I think you'd be surprised. A lot of people tell me they're not nuanced enough to pick up on the differences then they get a new bike and surprise themselves.
I understand how a tube flexes, but exactly does a triangle flex? I like the discussion keep the hardtail alive!
You won't see a triangle flex much, but imagine a triangle where all 3 sides were a mile long. No matter the material, it would still flex. The same principles apply to smaller triangles.
Materials (any) are like springs, really really stiff springs. So imagine a triangle made of springs instead of tubes, with pivots at the nodes. Now in addition you have to think about the stiffness coming from the weld joints as well, resisting the rotational flex (think about a 3-bar rear suspension vs a 4-bar, the 3 bar flexes at the rear joint, the 4 bar actually has a pivot)
Do you have any experience with the Marin steel frames? Like the pine mountain?
I used to own both a pine mountain and a team marin in the late 90s. I think they had Columbus tubing. I loved those bikes! They were one of the few bikes that didn't beat me up as a light rider.
Sadly, I haven't ridden the modern pine MTN other than a parking lot test. Sadly, Marin doesn't bring their hardtails to demo events. It's a shame, because the price point of the pine mountain is amazing and I'd love to try one.
@@hardtailparty what do you think about production privee shan 917 27?
@@simongavazza5377 I haven't ridden one. It sure looks like a cool bike. I've wanted to ride one for years, but never had the chance. I'd definitely want to ride one before ordering it though.
Hey Shawn, you're in luck. Thanks to your recommendation, I decided to reach out to Marin and see if I could get a Pine Mountain on review. They'll be sending one later this month. I'm excited to put it through its paces. I'd definitely recommend the pine mtn 2 over the pine mtn 1. The pine mtn 1 has a qr axle with 141mm hubs, neither of which is ideal.
hardtail party really looking forward to your Pine Mtn review!
Really appreciate your reviews!
Would you recommend a banshee paradox for a 250lbs rider?
Real noticeable frame flex makes me friggin anxious though. I'm worried it'll break
Steve, I made a comment about the RSD Sergeant V3 being alloy, and how I wish it'd to be steel - maybe sparking this topic. I give a lot of credit to RSD's versatility - 275x3.8 and 29x3.0 on the same frame (Sarg v2 Ti) is awesome. My interest was not just "any" steel, but lightweight steel. I know lighter steel bikes ride better (if they aren't too flexy.) I'm right there with ya - I want to see more steel frames designed specifically with rider comfort in mind - especially bikes intended for bikepacking. Having ridden a lightweight (4.3lbs) alloy hardtail for that purpose, it just didn't do it - I missed steel (and suspension). It'd be interesting to see if 2020 Banshee Paradox (alloy) with it's "tuned for comfort" rear end improves any of that. Or if super-light alloy like the Specialized Chisel would ride any better. My guess is the Paradox probably rides like most alloy AM hardtails, and the Chisel like a roadbike (29x2.2 max tire eww).
I think it's just better to say "lightweight steel is real."
It wasn't based on you, but I've heard about 20 other people make similar comments.
The truth is, it's not just the weight of the steel that makes it ride nice. It's the frame design, the thickness of tubing, the way the joints are made, where the bracing is, etc., And steel doesn't have a corner on the market for supple frames.
Be careful not to lump all alloy frames into the same category, and don't lump all steel frames into the same category either. Some feel great. Some dont.
Stay tuned for the review of the banshee paradox.
Steel can be welded by anyone anywhere if it needs to be fixed. Would love to see you weld something together. Maybe a HP logo that could be purchased?
I only have a mig welder, no Tig. It'd be fun to try my hand at a framebuilding class one day though.
hardtail party you should do it. I think it would be a good new frontier for you to explore.
I had a gunnar single speed about 5-10 years ago, it was Reynolds 853, hand made piece of art and was the nicest and smoothest riding bike I ever owned. I now have a surly karate monkey, it rides like a brick compared to my sweet old Gunnar. Also, why is it so cool to have super slack headtube angles?
I was looking at the NS bikes eccentric cromo I wonder how that frame is. I have a dirt jumper from NS bikes and it's steel and feels great but it's hard to say if their 29'' hardtail mtb would be good too
I haven't ridden one yet. It's bon my list of bikes to try.
This was a great episode! Well done. I’m about 215lbs suited up so the Honzo worked for me, but once I got the Middle Child I had the best of both worlds. Stiffness in the BB area and refined compliance everywhere else. Also a tad lighter. Fantastic work.
Is your mc ti or steel?
hardtail party large steel. The first was medium. In terms of compliance, I can’t say I could tell a difference. The most supple frame I’ve owned was a Niner MCR. My Canfield EPO was pretty incredible. Supple in the stays and got progressively stiffer through the head and light! Like 3lbs. I hope they make that bike again, but with more traditional aesthetics. You got me curious about the carbon Chameleon.
I forgot I had a Voodoo Bizango 853 that was super comfortable.
I have a Rocky Mountain ALTITUDE T.O that is incredibly supple made from Tange Ultimate Superlight tubing. I'll never give it up
I’m just curious, you said the Kona honzo st is pretty stiff, I’m looking at the Explosif and is that frame similar in stiffness? Thanks
I haven't ridden the new explosif, sorry.