This Apologist Is LYING to Millions: The Truth About Slavery in the Bible
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- čas přidán 1. 10. 2023
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Great book, 5 stars! Buy it and give it 5 stars to help spread the reality and silence the false claims of apologists.
Got the book. Got all his books. I can't leave a rating on Amazon because they have a stupid policy that doesn't allow it even though I've been with them since 1995. Long story but I'm not the only one that they've done this to. Keep up the great work. Both of you!
@PseudeaEpimetheus "There debt laws" For fellow Israelites it was about debt, but for foreigners it was chattel slavery, complete ownership of another person as property, with the wise owners beating their property, and not related to debt or debt laws at all.
I enjoyed this so much. Thank you for having me on! ☺️❤️
Thanks for having an online presence and teaching us for free. I am a former brain washed evangelical and your work has helped me overcome the foolish exegetical practices I was trained in. Even though I'm not an atheist, I bought your books with that title 🤣
always illuminating watching how Dr. Josh dismantles apologists trying to die on the hill of biblical slavery being okay...
Hearing Josh say that people conclude, “So maybe slavery isn’t evil after all” is horrifying.
There are already Evangelicals who openly argue that US should be a theocracy with OT laws including slavery, death penalty for homosexuality, all of it. It's called "theonomy" and it's gaining popularity. This is the next step of their brain rot. Give it 10 more years and it's going to be the platform of the GOP presidential candidate.
But no one actually said it
I am incredibly thankful for Dr. Josh Bowen's work and really hope he continues to persist with talking about this to help alleviate the indoctrination that people have had.
True!
In antebellum South, kidnapping was a statute in law. It applied to free people, nor could you take someone else’s slave.
In fact, legally, freed slaves could not be enslaved again- at least this became a hypothetical option at some point, in some States- and yet we know it happened regularly. Slave owners just ignored the status of “freed” and the deeper into the South, the less actually enforceable it became. It was even common for the papers to be destroyed and the person turned into a slave again, even if it was illegal.
In other words, I’d be very wary of the supposed rights that ancient laws granted slaves. There is a world of difference between a law existing- and already the legal status was not exactly stellar either, even officially- and its being enforced. How many slave owners were really brought to trial, let alone convicted, for beating their slave to death?
Because in Antebellum
South, that too was illegal at least in some
States and it didn’t make a lick of difference. The law was not enforced and everyone knew it wouldn’t be.
Yep. It's also important to remember that in the antebellum South that slaveowners controlled society. Large plantation owners were the wealthy. Their families were the likely source of judges and politicians. There were laws in the South pertaining to the treatment of slaves, but on the rare occasion that someone tried to enforce them you were being investigated by sympathetic parties, judged by sympathetic judges, supported by sympathetic neighbors, etc... many of whom owned slaves. I have literally read cases where someone was actually brought up on charges and the slaveowning neighbors of the offending master basically all show up to testify to what a 'good' master he was.
@@PrometheanRising Very true. There is even a tradition of “Southern gentlemen” who went into Law and they’d be the ones calling the shots on how to interpret the law, said law having been drafted and voted by like minded individuals as it was.
Slaveowners were not pariah. The more slaves they had, the richer and thus the most influential they were. Slavery wasn’t “just” a means of production, it was the scaffolding of a whole society. The Southern gentleman’s could be all debonair to peers precisely because of it.
This means that anything that threatened it, including trying to investigate the treatment of slaves, was immediately opposed by a whole hierarchy that involved virtually everyone. Even some slaves could be pressed into this, if need be.
Well put
Love Dr Josh, love his fury at patriarchal BS at the end.
"Don't worry about it babe, I've prayed about it and I'm right. God would tell me if I was wrong"
Looking forward to this
It was fun
*Therefore what?*
The apologists I’ve heard would say, “Therefore, slavery was voluntarily and therefore OK.”
It seems slavery was fueled mostly by war and poverty… in the society supposedly led by Yahweh. As Bowen pointed out elsewhere, Yahweh promised to take care of anyone who suffered economically for following his instructions
Loved this chat,those apologists are something else.
How fun your show is. I can not believe the expletive language Dr. Josh used, a hilarious if warranted moment.
The driving analogy is very good !
I've been tilting at this particular windmill for years now. I have your first book Dr. Josh, and saving up for your new one.
Subscribed & thanks!
Love listening to Josh,
Cliff says something like: "God only mandated slavery because abolition was impractical in first century Jewish culture. But now we know better... today slavery is not okay."
What about: "God only mandated homophobia because tolerance was impractical in first century Jewish culture. But now we know better... today homophobia is not okay."
Why does this cultural relativism only apply to the regulations that Cliff agrees with?
I thank Dr Bowen for his work on this ( and for introducing me to book trees )
Exodus? The same episode where God literally kill inocent children?
Very important that people do hear this. So tired of hearing about the GOOD slavery in the bible. It is really quite sick.
I laughed when I heard them explain Philemon. Paul was sent a slave in prison, a slave named "helpful". He returns the slave with his whole heart because he's been so "helpful". And also, Paul said Phil should make their slave Christian... not free them.
7:12 sick flex bruh!
I was arguing about the slavery in the bible with a guy at the cafe I frequent and he went down the path of "Well slavery isn't always wrong"
My right eyeball just exploded out of my skull ☠️
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, mr apologist man, but the famous phrase is “let MY people go”.
Why do these Christians think that the rules that are specifically for Israelites males, are the rules for everyone?
The punishment is alleviated after a few days meant that if the slave lived longer that a few days, the slave owner gets no punishment. Only if the slave dies immediately will he be punished!
A loving god would never condone slavery. Thats why i worship the most loving most powerful god, Lisa The Rainbow Giraffe (LBUH)
"Therefore what"
You cannot kidnap people in the "us" group, but within the group of "them" in which the "us" group does not a trust agreement with you can war on them, capture them and enslave them.
During the maccabean revolt Jews attacked their neighbors and forcibly converted them. Thise that did not were either droven off, captured and enslaved or killed them.
Exactly, "free people" shouldnt be kidnapped, of course not. That would be reeeally bad. But when it is someone that isnt considered a free person then that argument really doesnt go anywhere anymore. Youre my property, not a free person.
Poor Goku on that poster having to listen to them
Cliffe has me so confused I don't know if twelve is the legal number of pieces into which I can dismember my concubine whom I pushed out the door to assuage the invading gang rapists?
Is each piece especially made in the image of Yahweh or only fractionally....
HAHAHAHA the "God did all the evil stuff so the one evil thing you picked out is okay too" argument.
If there was a god, I truly believe that skeptics like this will go to heaven first, because of their commitment to the truth rather than to belief.
@29:00: “…it was supernatural…to abolish slavery…”
Really? I presume he’s talking about a country going at war with itself over the institution of slavery. Are we to believe there were no Holy Ghost filled Christians in the Confederacy fighting to keep slavery a thing?
Dr. Josh's voice sounds almost identical to comedian Mike Birbiglia 😅
I actually think its worth a discussion to argue the some of the horrific things described in detail within the bible (whether its herod killing kids or describing sexual organs) should be apropriate and easily available for little children to read, i remember watching The Prince of egypt, which while an amazing movie exhibits the really dark topic of feeding babies to crocodiles which as a kid was nauseatingly shocking for me to watch.
18:44 - I disagree. I would prefer if my interlocutor was honest about what the text literally says on the page, and is forced by his own honesty to admit that he must believe slavery to be moral. The alternative is that the person delusionally denies the words that are written on the page, which seems like a much less productive conversation to have. If your interlocutor is willing to interpret anything to mean whatever he wants, then the conversation is next to pointless.
Back when life was mire brutal and there was less accountability slavery was happy.
Wow, that took a hard right turn into misogyny
Ask Josh what does he think about Revelation Revelation 18.13 it seems to criticize slave trade. This paper argues about it
Bodies and Souls: The Case for Reading Revelation 18.13 as a Critique of the Slave Trade
Therefore....what?
By implying it is criticising slavery, it would also be criticising buying and selling cinnamon, wine, olive oil and flour. All of which I have in my kitchen pantry right now.
So unless the ingredients I have in my pantry to make a cake are equal to owning a human as property, it's highly unlikely the verse is criticising slavery. It's simply pointing out merchants can't sell their commonly traded goods, which included human beings in the time Revelation was written.
@@jaclo3112 They call them souls meaning the merchants saw them like the other material goods which is immoral. This is a criticism. This is also not the only criticism of the slave trade in antiquity.
Wait thats not Bill Nye?
Yeah its nice to see these Christian echo chambers in full effect. Its just so much nicer when people just tell you yup and agree with you all the time. LOL and the christian victimization at the end of that is sublime.
Is it just me or does the guy in the green shirt sound like Peter Griffin? Speaks about as much sense!
Yep
Great discussion on Christianity and slavery! The problem is, it's the wrong subject. The reason I cannot be a Christian is because Christianity is based on - its very foundation - is human sacrifice.
For two hundred thousand years, we humans have practiced this abominable religious superstition.
Untold thousands of men, women, children, babies, and animals have been sacrificed” to placate an angry god or to ask the gods for some kind of favor, such as victory in battle. To give any credence to this worst of superstitions is to give a symbolic kick in the teeth to every man, woman, and child who was murdered as a religious sacrifice.
What is Christianity? It is this: God was angry with us because we transgressed against him. Jesus, who, by the way, is also this angry god, came along and volunteered to be tortured to death to make this angry god (himself) happy again so he wouldn't destroy us.
The Holy Bible tells us that in each town, once a year, the local priest would transfer all the sins of the town into a goat by magic incantation. This scapegoat would then be driven out of town and tortured to death, atoning for the town's sins and making god happy with us again. But in fact, no; sins cannot be "transferred" into goats or other people.
The Holy Bible tells us that if a man is murdered or robbed outside of a town and the criminal isn't caught, a bull or calf must be provided by the nearest town and sacrificed for the crime. This is supposed to appease the angry god and make him happy again.
Two hundred thousand years of this atrocious human superstition is enough. It’s high time we called these savage practices what they are: murder. Enough is enough.
I was a Watchtower slave and was told ,,woe is me ,if I don't preach the good news of the kingdom for necessity is laid upon me ,after I have preached I should say ,,I,m a good for nothing slave and I have blood on my hands if I don't hand out Watchtower literature ,, Since I've left Jehovah I've been having a devil of a time with Satan and loving it!,, Justin Porter ex jw
*Epistle to Philemon Upholds Slavery*
Philemon 1:9 and 13, Paul uses slavery as a metaphor for adherence to Jesus. Paul implicitly *upholds the institution of slavery,* even tho Paul expresses a wish that *a specific slave,* Onesimus, could be free. *Paul never mentions Onesimus’ wishes.*
Paul had written in 1 Thessalonians 5:22 to “Abstain from any form/manifestation of evil.” So if he is being consistent, he doesn’t think slavery is evil, because he is willing to honor the institution of slavery and return a slave to his master.
So whatever Paul meant by loving Onesimus, it did not include putting Onesimus’ freedom above Philemon’s property rights to Onesimus. And when Christians took state power, they did not end slavery immediately. It took them over 1400 years to end it anywhere.
*Frederick Douglass exposed cruel Christian slaveowners,* including ministers, in autobiography, “Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, An American Slave”
I dometimes think Stuart is only Christian because he's scared of wasting his dad would say
it’s crazy i strongly dislike logan paul but he really was doing his friend a favor and keep him honest 😂 you know you are tripping when logan paul sounds rational
I feel the same
@13:40 , why dont you just rebuke his argument instead of just telling his to educate himself? Also, is the guest “scholar” guy a christian?
@DeepDrinks
Yes, people were subjected to slavery, but it was only allowed when there was a debt to pay off. What was not allowed was to kidnap people and force them into labor, which is what a lot of cultures have done throughout the history of the world. Guess what, there was also a celebration every 50 years to let everyone go and get their possessions back.
Therefore what?
That is hilarious. That is your counter? You are just going to repeat the "checkmate" question from your guest? Therefore, to say that the Bible endorses slavery how the US and Atlantic Slave Trade did, is incorrect. Slavery is in the Bible. Anyone who says it isn't, is being disingenuous. But you are too.@@DeepDrinks
Not true.
What you describe is mostly reserved for Israelite men.
Can a father sell his daughter as a concubine, sorry, a “servant”, to pay off a debt, as described in exodus 21:7?
Does she go free in the seventh year, as the males?
Did she chose this relationship?
Would you allow your daughters to be used in such a way?
And if no, why not?
God has said it’s good. Has He not?
Where does it say concubine? It says servant or maidservant. You guys want to rag on Christians for not "accepting" what is in the Bible, but you guys are just as ignorant or liars. And the women can go free. Where does it say God said it was good? Or just because it is in the Bible, therefore it automatically says God claimed it was good? @@stevenbatke2475
Kidnapping was only a problem for you if you kidnap free people or slaves of someone else (because they would be their property). Slaves werent free. They werent even people. They were property or soon to be property. Furthermore there were slaves of war as well. god told his people to take people that they defeated for themselves. Well, only the virgins of course. Cuz frick anyone else, right? Eventhough the men and other women would also need someone to depend on now. Nah, just get the virgins for yourselves. Youre pathetic.
Thanks for thanking my great self even though you are very poorly made in my image Dr Brown
‘’Thank Frank’’ it’s even better then the meme ‘’thanks obama’’
Wow Cliffe just gonna lie!
Ah yes, the 'jingly-keys' of apologetics. Ignore all the real arguments and focus on other, unrelated stuff.
I love a man who wears bowties!(viced rhino)
Read 1 Chronicles 21:7-17 and you know what happened
Here's the thing. If the bible is the immutable, unchanging, inerrant word of a particular deity, why accept some rules today and discount others?
That's part of the problem
Cuz otherwise they would have to make laws again that make slavery possible. Not a good marketing move for their religion tho😂💀
Context context context. It's easy for Mr. Bow tie to judge the Old Testament on slavery but the Bible is made up of narrative, poetry, and the instruction given by God to the Israelites was specific to the time and place in which they lived. All mankind is sinful and deserving of death and if the Holy God of the Old Testament chose death or slavery for some He is within his right as creator. God is both perfectly loving and perfectly just and its easy to say say the Bible support evil practice when you read without taking literary, historical, geographical, and theological context into account. Almost 1/3 of the ancient world were slaves at time of exodus, there was tremendous poverty, there was tremendous violence and demonic worship of very real entities.
Do you believe God gave instructions on how to own, beat and have sex with your slaves? (this is a yes or no)
Run away from his question coward, keep digging for that beloved “context”
@@DeepDrinks God met His chosen people where they were at during the time period. The concept of slavery was not evil but the sinful way inwhich people act towards each other was. For example today most people would say polygamy is wrong when for thousands of years it was the norm. You use a modern lense to judge ancient books and think yourself righteous but you are a hypocrite and unwise.
@@jackmetcalfe1964 God could condemn the eating of pork and shellfish but not slavery?
@@jackmetcalfe1964 this proves that the Bible is not a “moral” code 🤦♂️
It's funny when the host christian male starts screeching about being "Dah man of dah house". Bullshit. He seems oblivious to the fact that women have ALWAYS worked. We know what it's like to work a paid job. It ain't that big of a deal.
He also seems oblivious of the fact that women have ALWAYS protected and defended themselves and their kids, including saving them from burning buildings. Including defending themsleves from their husbands and intimate partners, fathers, brothers etc...you know, the men who are their protectors. Because statistically the biggest killers and abusers of women are not strangers, it is the men who are closest to them.
Men are not commonly protectors and providers for women. Unless they were wealthy and of the privileged classes, most women throughout human history have had to provide for their families and protect themsleves.
This is weak.
David's crime was punished by God. No?
When the Bible says it was forbidden to Kidnapp people and sell the or keep then as slaves and also avoid to comment that the people sold themselves voluntarily into servitude ( to pay debts for example) you are eliminating 2 element that characterize antebellum slavery. There is no parallel between the biblical servitude ( coming from the Hebrew word ebed Wich could mean slave or servant) and American slavery. American slavery was not voluntary, people were kidnapped based on race in Africa and brought to America against their will. they were slaves forever and mistreated. In the Bible most of the servants left the contract after six years and if they were mistreated the master had to let them free and lose the money the servant owed. It was some kind of servitude but is not comparable with modern slavery. You can say you don't like this kind of servitude, and that's ok, but for that social reality could have been a willful solution for economy problems. Besides God's goal revealed in the word is not necessary to change the society ( although it cold come as a byproduct of His work) but to rescue and save people one soul a a time. Christianity helped to eradicate Slavery in the Roman empire, Europe and in America. And even thanks to Christianity you are free to do videos like this in the west and not to pay with your life like in countries were Christianity sadly is a minority.
Y’all are completely coming at it from the wrong prospective. God is reality itself. Humans were trying to figure out reality’s limitations n rules. One thing u can do in reality is enslave ppl. Well what’s the limitations on that etc. then eventually humans figured out were better off in reality without slave. Thus Jesus came
Moses never existed...the Exodus never happened
The thing is, its almost useless debating with athiests on the bible because they do not know God nor wish to so they are completely unopen to trying to understand the underlying reasons for events in the bible. Even if it is explained, they will say you are reaching, which from their point of view, is understandable. To them, God is just a concept not a personable being. Basically, christianity is too foreign to an athiest. It's like trying to explain a color to a man born blind.
Many if not most atheists are post-Christian.
All this is great, but I believe we fail to notice the fact that all this dialogue is SUBJECTIVE if there is no ultimate authority. There must be an almighty God for there to be an ultimate good and ultimate evil.
Why must there be an ultimate authority? If we get our morality from the Bible, we don’t know that slavery is wrong.