What's So Bad About Apologetics??? w/ Dr. Joshua Bowen
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
- Why did Ph.D Assyriologist Joshua Bowen leave the Christian faith and become an outspoken atheist? And what does he have against apologetics?
@DigitalHammurabi
www.digitalhammurabi.com
The Atheist's Handbook to the Old Testament 1&2 www.amazon.com/stores/Joshua-...
#apologetics #counterapologetics #exchristian #apostasy #bible - Zábava
It's a horrible feeling when you realise you're not defending the truth but just defending a lie.
So that's how atheists feel all the time I guess. Although it's hard to dumb down my thinking processes enough to imagine the thinking process of an atheist.
That is something curious i have found about wannabe apologist on internet, for some reason they think you pointing out the flaws on their arguments means any god cannot exist, it never crosses their mind that a god could exist and they are simply wrong on how to demonstrate it.
@@Julian0101
Very well said
I'm a Christian Diaz but I recognize everything Josh is saying about the Bible in the issues they're in as well as the other exvangelicals is pretty much spot-on
First off, as a black agnostic (or atheist on a bad day), it's awesome to have you! As I don't see a lot of black agnostics/atheist on yt, second Dr Joshua Bowen is awesome!!!
✊🏽
I'm fascinated that you cease to be black on bad days. How does that work?
@PrometheanRising Not the black part, just the agnostic/atheist part.
Josh, this is probably one of your best interviews.
"Just because we don't have the comfort, doesn't make the faith true." That's the hardest part for me, Brady. Thank you for articulating that because it needs to be said.
Dr Josh. I think you are right. It is not just the suddenness of the new information but the surprise of it.
One day I was teaching my cultural anthropology class. We were in the language and communications unit. A student said that he believed that we cannot think with out words. I, of course, had to challenge it -else where is discussion and debate. I picked up the marker and drew three symbols on the board: the Star of David, the crescent, and the cross, “see you know what each of those symbols communicates without words, right?” For some reason I stood back and looked at the symbols again and muttered to myself “H o l y S h _ t!!! The other two Abrahamic religious identify with signs of nature -sky signs- and my own religion identifies with a form of execution!”
That was not the end of it, but realizing that I adhered to a death cult drew me up short and put me on the path.
The assertion that we cannot think without words is demonstrably untrue. Dr. Robert Sapolsky tells the story of some deaf people, I think in Nicaragua, who were raised without learning sign language or how to read. They developed their own form of communication based on pantomime. As an adult, one of the men learned how to read and thus acquired word language. Once he began thinking in words he could not go back to his preverbal way of thinking. However, tha did not mean he and the others were incapable of thinking when they were not verbal.
That’s a fascinating observation, though. Thanks.
I agree with Dr. Josh...listening to apologist's gives me an aneurysm.
Listening on 2x speed.
This is a treat for all of us; a great way to start the day.
Listening while working.
I just shared a clip from this stream; to my FB page.
Will share more clips later.
Thanks again for this.
I adore Dr Josh! Thank you both for your time in this video. Well done.
This was probably the best interview I’ve seen yet with Dr. Bowen. I’m not an atheist, but also not a Christian, though I was raised as one. I’ve been really interested in the history of the Bible lately. I read a number of books on the New Testament by Bart Ehrman, a book by Paula Fredriksen, and Elaine Pagels book on the Gnostic gospels. I’ve heard a lot about Dr. Bowen’s Atheist Handbook and would really like to get it for it’s lessons in history. The problem is the title. My wife is a Christian and the title has really put her off. I tried explaining that I’m only interested in it from a historical perspective, but she gets angry when I mention it. She has a lot of medical issues and relies on her faith to get her through the rough patches so I think she feels threatened by me reading the book, even though I’ve assured her I’m only interested in it from a historical perspective. So all you need to do, Dr. Bowen, is retitle the book.🤣🤣🤣 Seriously, I’ll probably get the book anyway, I’ll just have to not make a big deal out of it and not leave it laying around. Personally, I find it rather sad that she’s not more open minded.
Thx for sharing. I can see your dilemma. Maybe get the digital and just keep it on your 📱 😊 be well
Curious question, have you told her that a god could exist and the bible still be not reliable historically? It may help her stop feeling so defensive.
@@Julian0101 I’ve mentioned a few things about the New Testament, like the Gospels being anonymous, the adulterous woman being stone not being in the original copies of John, etc. she just ignores me and doesn’t want to hear it.
@@davidkeller6156 Oh well, if she just want to not think about it then is her choice.
Though now i feel curious why she feels threatened just by *you* reading a book (and i suppose for yourself, not for her). Anyway, she is your wife, and you know her better than me, so good luck.
And i think saying more than this, would be just irresponsible of me.
@@davidkeller6156 I would caution you not to blindly accept all you read from the likes of Bart "Errorman" and his kind, especially the Josh Bowen's as well. They pretend they to just give you straight facts, but nothing could be further from the truth.
I don't know how many "scholars" that are featured by atheists or other anti-Christian channels that I have caught either lying or being deceptive. But you only catch them if you have studied well. I caught Bart "Errorman" making a mistake using the word "babies" in Revelation 2:23 when no Greek word in the passage can be properly translated that way.
I caught David Litwa falsely claiming that John 8:44 should be translated "You are of the father of the devil," which is absolute, theological and Greek grammatical nonsense. Yet not one of the atheist/anti-Christian hosts caught these errors.
So whether it's Derek from the "MythVision podcast" or the low-budget copycat of "MythVision" known as "Gnostic Informant," they all ignorantly and conveniently blindly accept everything their guests say, which is problem inherent within them due to the anti-Christian bias. So I would advise you to do better research than just listening to guys like Bart. They're not always right. In fact, they're often wrong, and it's the apologists that expose that, since no one else is honest enough or knowledgeable enough to do so.
Do yourself a favor and read some Gary Habermas, Norman Geisler, John Oswalt, Gleason Archer, Craig Blomberg, K.A. Kitchen, Edward Andrews, and Umberto Cassuto.
In the post Mormon community we often use the metaphor of a shelf breaking to describe the moment of seeing things significantly differently. We spend years adding items to the shelf and then there is one additional item that breaks the shelf.
I know there is an original source for this metaphor, but I forget what it is.
Wow... thx for sharing
The straw that broke the camels back
An excellent discussion. And I really loved that it ended with Dr. Josh doing his Kent Hovind impersonation.
Thanks for interviewing Dr Josh, Brady. You are two very level headed dudes.
The truth has nothing to fear. Thx y’all for sharing
except for lies and ignorance, lies always attack truth and try to burry or burn it. Ignorance takes the leg work after that to keep the truth down.
55:00
Re: "He's in a better place"
There is an episode of Young Sheldon where a young person has been killed in a car accident, and there is the mention of "she's in a better place." Sheldon's mom, having a crisis of faith, pushes back, and says, "How can anywhere but with their parents be a better place?"
The baggage that goes with that line is really dark. It's supposed to mean, "Isn't heaven wonderful?" but in the end, it's "Their life with you was awful"
Regardless of what they "mean" that's the question. Why aren't they better off here with us?
Yeah, there is solace in "It's not fair." My usual take is more like, "I don't know what to say, this just sucks. If there is anything I can do to help you or your family, let me know." I don't know if it is as affirming as "it's not fair" but I'm just one who doesn't think it has to be fair. But in the end, though, it still sucks.
Interesting....
What a fantastic conversation, thanks to both of you!
Fantastic. Thanks to you both for this great interview!
Another great convo!!! Keep it up B!!!! 👍🏽💪🏽
I always enjoy hearing from Dr. Josh.
Amazing interview. Ima have to check this guy out.
Dr. Josh is awesome!! An important cog... and I say this as a Christian theist.
Love this interview!
Awesome interview!!!
You did say 2moro, and here we are, Thanks Brady, Dr. Josh is a helluva a guy. Best Hovind on the Net. Way better than the original.
Kent wishes he could Hovind like Dr. Josh.
Another really good one Brady !!
My appreciation grows for how really good you are at this.I’ve seen
Josh before and now I think I see clearer who he really is ,it’s nothing negative at all .
Thanks again .
God(s) are a unsubstantiated premise clothed in bald assertions sitting on a pedestal of circular reasoning argued by apologists using arguments from arrogant ignorance.
Very well put.
Spot on analysis of the differences between those raised in a fundamentalist tradition and others less so. Thanks.
Can't wait for volume 3.
I found a lot of value in the discussion around 1:21:00 about a unified spiritual model. I have often thought that this is the most consistent and unbiased model for faith in the divine. While I am also an atheist now, when I was younger, being exposed to the church and figuring things out for myself, that was a view I held for a time, and it is refreshing to see it discussed.
I enjoyed your exchange, gentlemen. Dr. Bowen, I'm knowin', but,
B Good, was it Shannon Q I glimpsed you with? Gotta go back and
be much gooder at finishing that viewing.
Thank you.
Love Dr. Josh... 😄
Thank you for telling ypur story, both of you.
Non-christians deserve respect, which is something Dr. Josh did not receive in this video. If you want your beliefs to be respected, you need to respect those of others. Saying that he was never a Christian, besides being not true, is just a very rude thing to say to someone just because their personal ideology and path for life has changed. You may think, "Aww, that would never happen to me. My faith is too strong.", b7ut all it takes is having an instant personal revelation to change the way you think.
My point is that you should never tell someone who has left their faith that they were never really a Christian. Dr. Josh had the same thoughts and feeling that you have now at one time. He just suddenly gained an insight that he saw as a reason to not believe anymore. Saying someone was never a real Christian is just a bad thing to do.
I'd say that it's worse than being rude.
It's pretending to be a mind reader. It's lying.
If you've lost your faith, you never were a real Christian. The truth is the truth and I'm not going to sugar coat it to save someone's delicate feelings. Josh did not gain an insight - he must have got hit on the head. That's the only way I can see becoming stupid enough to become an atheist.
@@inwalters Lying makes Jesus cry. Why are you so hurtful towards Jesus?
@@rainbowkrampus According to "Church Father" Eusebius, lying for Jesus actually helps Jesus if you lie well enough.
@@inwalters Sure, believing in a human sacrifice that a god wanted to himself, who was himself, all because a talking snake convinced a rib woman and a dirt man to eat magic fruit from a magic tree.
This is a stupid as it gets. Well, except for punishing billions of humans and trillions of animals for this one act.
I used to beieve in Santa, and was a true believer. But I grew up. The "truth" was a lie.
Commenting for Mr algorithm
Brady love this interview.
Yo your thoughts about hell resonate so much with me. 1-hoping to see you address this more like others in your space have in future podcasts. 2-how significant was the idea of hell as it related to your evangelism? Do you feel like you took it more seriously than your former contemporaries?
I have listened to Dr. Josh several times in the past and this was a great interview - it really added some pieces to my understanding of his process.
I still remain lost as to what the nature The Bible has to do with God himself or even Jesus but perhaps that's a issue for another time.
23:04 I got a copy of 1177 by Eric Cline in January based on your recommendation. I haven't read it because I deconstructed/deconverted so quick, I ended up buying too many books... but I'll get to it eventually.
This was awesome gentlemen. Especially the Kent Hovind impersonation.
only halfway in and i must say i really like Dr. Joshua Bowen.
Interesting point on the PhD program. I said the same thing about getting a JD after I got mine. Anyone can get a JD if they have the perseverance.
1:36:55 I was hoping the ENTIRE INTERVIEW for the impersonation!!
I did not sign up to be God's spin-doctor - very well said...
15:15 wow, never thought of that argument before, Brady. “What kind of theology is that, that you believe God would allow someone (such as yourself or Josh or Derek) to spend DECADES believing that they’re Christians to their deepest core, only to spend eternity in torment because they weren’t the right kind of Christian, or they weren’t really Christians in the first place, that it was all a lie?” Yeah, that would be a horrific god, and definitely not a loving one!
God's word reveals that there is one way for sinful men to be reconciled to him, their holy Creator (see Acts 4:12) He sent his only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to be the Savior of men (see 1 John 4:14). Through his sufferings that were in accordance with the scriptures, Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of all mankind; he bore our sins in his body upon the tree (see 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Hebrews 2:9, 1 Peter 2:24). The sacrifice of himself on our behalf now accomplished, he freely offers the forgiveness of sins and eternal life to all who trust in him as Savior (see 2 Corinthians 5:18-21, John 6:47). The man who trusts in Christ as Savior has agreed with God that he is a sinner and guilty before God and turns to Jesus Christ for the gift of salvation (Luke 18:13-14, Luke 23:42-43). Without faith in Jesus Christ, men perish, and face God's wrath in hell after death (see John 3:16, the rich man in Luke 16:19-31).
There are very sobering warnings that God has given us in the Bible for our good. We are to heed these warnings lest we face terrible consequences. These warnings include: We are not to trust in our OWN righteousness which is likened to filthy rags in Isaiah 64:6 (see Luke 18:9-12, 14); we are not to mix the grace of God with our works as a way to obtain salvation (see Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9); we are not to add to or take away from the gospel message as warned in Galatians 1:6-8, thus perverting it; we are to beware false teachers and false prophets that pervert God's word (see 2 Peter 2:1, Acts 20:29-30); and we are to beware 'another' Jesus, ''another' spirit, and 'another' gospel which are not the genuine according to the scriptures (see 2 Corinthians 11:3-4). This is not an exhaustive list but representative of warnings God has provided for us.
The Bible speaks frankly of the realities that men face; it also equips men to spot and reject lies of their adversary, the Devil which are designed to deceive them and lead them astray from the truth (see 2 Timothy 3:15-17, John 17:17, Revelation 12:9, John 8:44). Men's opinions on these things change nothing.
The preaching of the gospel according to the scriptures brings salvation to all who believe (see Romans 1:16).
@@sdlorah6450 circular reasoning
@@sdlorah6450- The Gospel of Jesus was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.
@@marccoppejans1046 When man sinned, bringing death into the world, God promised to provide mankind with a Savior (see Romans 5:12, Genesis 3:15). In time, he chose one man, Abram(ham), of whom he promised to make a great nation to the end of blessing all the families of the earth (see Genesis 12:1-3). To this nation, the Jews, were given the Old Testament scriptures which testified of Jesus Christ. In time, as promised according to the OT scriptures, he was born and fulfilled all of the prophecies that pertained to his first coming (see Luke 24:25-27). Fulfilled prophecy is one of the great markers that the Bible is God's word and trustworthy as only he has the ability to declare future things (see Isaiah 46:9-10).
Witnesses to Jesus' sufferings and resurrection first spread the gospel in Jerusalem as instructed; it has since spread around the world (see Luke 24:46-49).
God has been at work in history to provide salvation for mankind through his Son, Jesus Christ. Agree with God and your own conscience which bear witness to you that you are a sinner, and turn to Jesus Christ for the salvation of your soul while you are still able to do so.
@@termination9353 God gave his word to 40 men over an approximately 1,500-year period (see 2 Peter 1:21, 2 Timothy 3:15). In it, he details his plan to provide forgiveness for sinful men through his only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6). Men can escape the judgment of God's wrath in hell after death and receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by humbling acknowledging their guilt before God and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior (see Romans 6:23, Acts 16:30-31).
Men deny the scriptures and the gospel of grace to their own detriment (see Psalm 1).
1:30:22 having deconverted nearly 2 decades ago, it’s been a very long time since I heard anyone go through that whole spiel. I hope it’s as long again before I hear it another time! 😂
FIVE kids, Josh?!?!? God bless! 😂🤣😂🤣😂
I love hearing people’s lightbulbs moments!
interesting to hear the full story.
An apologist is someone who has to make their pre-adopted position seem true no matter how obvious new evidence or a better argument makes it that the position should be revised or dropped. It is mostly, and maybe entirely, dishonest.
Apologetic arguments are intended to help people keep believing. Apologetics rarely stand up to objective scrutiny. If apologetic arguments were actually true they would be called facts or recognized as scholarly consensus.
Apologist tap dance better than Savion Glover
" much learning hath made thee mad"!
Another 🔥 Episode OG. It's Wild that he hadn't heard of CRM cuz as a Fundamentalist he would have really fucked with yall 😂 alot of the west cost CHH was somewhat liberal from what I remember. I'm going to pull bros book on Audible cuz I'm starting to have some of these tuff convos with my homies & I need that info. 💯 Keep doing what yall do.
My mann
It’s interesting that another scholar named Dr Michael Heiser, who studied very similar if not the same ancient manuscripts and materials, could grow up as a non-believer but then convert to Christianity, get his doctorate and be steadfast in his faith up until his death 4 months ago? He said things like the Bible was written by imperfect people! How can one be a believer and another fall away?
Elite - an interesting question...
The starting point seems to be - what was Heiser's faith-based on?
@@greglogan7706 if you care that much you can do that research, he’s pretty popular even with his passing recently. Many of his views are not mainstream Christianity in some regards but I would say he believed the Bible is the inspired Word of God, which supersedes church tradition. But that there are some inconsistencies in the Text, albeit very minor, because God allowed imperfect people to write the Book.
@@elitedrumlessons6174
It was intended to be a rhetorical question.
Regardless - a larger question - why would think God had anything to do with the Bible in the first place....
What's bad about apologetics is the existence of apologetics.
If god doesn't need a starship, why does he need teams of salespeople and a PR department 2,000 years later?
So glad Paulogia sent me your way!
Gotta love Dr. Josh. You're both very well spoken.
Cultural programming is hard for people to resist. Most can not. At a very early age young human brains are learning to mimic those around them, in their immediate vicinity. Experiences leave lasting imprints. These babies form very narrow, colloquial, and regionalized pathways, mores, and customs. This includes what to eat, and what and how to think. It includes gods and religions. Giving up on any of this seems to be an affront to everything the child, or adult, knows. Terence McKenna calls this the mass hallucination. No matter what forces act on it, it can be tough for humans to over come their cultural programming.
If apologetic type masters degree holders from seminaries know Hebrew so well how do they overlook ghastly mistranslations in the gospels, especially in the King James?
“What kind of theology is that, that you believe God would allow someone (such as yourself or Josh or Derek) to spend DECADES believing that they’re Christians to their deepest core, only to spend eternity in torment because they weren’t the right kind of Christian, or they weren’t really Christians in the first place, that it was all a lie?”
If freewill or some kind of free choice is true then that is your answer. God lets people go their own way even after he has revealed himself to them. He does not force people to believe in him. It is not hard to see how God could do that and be a good God. God could have a reason to let people believe a lie or evil. This is just a rehashment of the logical problem of evil that almost no philosopher/ theologian still holds to anymore. It has been shown to not be a problem.
Two of my favorites, thanks guys. But I do feel like it's a missed opportunity for Dr Josh not to discuss whale body parts.
I just thought about this: when people say you weren’t a true Christian THEY’RE either gaslighting you or god was fooling you
🫢
👍💛
So apologetics is the explanation for "evangelicals4trump!"
This is the truest danger of apologetics.
Re: Killing the Amalekites
Yeah, there is the ambush reported in Exodus, and God orders the destruction of the Amalekites in Samual because of that.
But in terms of context, it literally says to destroy the Amalekites because their ancestors resisted the Israelites leaving Egypt. Had nothing to do with anything the people living there now did, but because of their ancestors.
So, because your ancestors ambushed the Isrealites, your babies will be slaughtered.
Seriously, there is no context that makes this story acceptable.
Flowing
Powerful observation!!
In contrast - Ezekiel 18 says every man will die for his own sin...
Perhaps a larger question - what does God have to do with this set of documents that is popularly called the Bible...🤔
I have so many comments and questions but I’ll keep it to just one, if Dr Josh sees this. And also for everyone who watched the video and has gone through deconversion process from inerrantist Christianity.
Do you catch yourself still praying at night or while walking while clearly acknowledging in your head that the Christian god doesn’t exist?
Not i, said the cat
What is more likely?
I think y’all hit upon the kind of questioning that usually leads to atheism. Josh used the example of the pen falling due to gravity or demons. Brady in your interview on Myhthvision with Derek you brought up the question (paraphrasing) “If creation is natural and the biblical supernatural account doesn’t mesh with what we know about natural origins then what else is actually natural and not supernatural?” It’s this way interacting with and understanding the world that makes atheism a good fit for our current understanding of reality.
I was a Christian for 15 years before I finally deconverted. I started as a fundamentalist literal 6-day creationist and worked gradually in those 15 years becoming more ‘liberal’ as I found traditional Christian beliefs couldn’t stand in the face of critical scrutiny.
The last straw for me was actually the resurrection. Dale Allison Jr.’s book on The Resurrection of Jesus was the nail in the coffin.
Do we need God to explain the Bible? What is more likely that God inspired the Bible or that it’s just a document written by people? If we can account for the Bible being a purely human product why hypothesize God?
This same reasoning goes with what we currently know about the world, we currently have no good tangible evidence that indicates there exist any deities or the supernatural, etc.
Anyways thanks for the interview and your channel, Brady.
Wish I could love this comment dozens more times. Thx! 😊
Gritty Charm City❤
So Gilgamesh's quest for immorality was very familiar? I know there is a great flood but the whole point of that story was to show why people could not be immortal. That seems the opposite of the story of Noah.
He also used the tired science over religion argument. He acts like those to things are trying to answer the same questions. It is a if he had not heard of natural vs. supernatural explanations. He needs to take more theology or philosophy classes. Some classes on how to not make bad arguments. He says it does not disprove the supernatural but in the end for him it does I guess.
The point you made about hell keeping you from accepting God again is a big issue with me as well…this “loving father” tossing hurt / abused/ neglected “children” into hell is too much for me. I see most “sin” as simply behavior we’ve adapted to either soothe/ live with trauma as a result of someone else’s “free will” actions dealt upon us.
Thx for commenting. To be clear, it's not that hell kept/keeps me from accepting God. Rather, after letting go of Christianity, it was a relief to not have to believe that the majority of the world's inhabitants were going to hell. 🙂
Favorite part…notkenthoven 😅
I prefer polemics to apologetics. The best defense is a great offense.
A typical proof: the "1/2 educated" have problems with Aristotle's causality already been seen in some Semite authors (e.g. Is 45:7,etc)in the Bible, both OT and NT. One can know many languages,e.g. Greek or Hebrew, and don't know Aristotle's arguments contra agnosticism and skepticism (e.g. the jokes of Zeno of Eleia or Gorgias of Leontinoi, maybe his honest and not jokes-a debate but a perfect logical exercise!). If one does not know logic, then one will be for sure under the influence of Satan, a liar (J8:44, Aristotle's privation principle on "evil")
apparently every nation and culture and people have myths and legends except christianity
Loved the honesty and all that. But can't get my head around not being able go from fundamentalist to liberal Christian? If it only takes about 1/2 hr to recognise the person who wrote the Bible was human, how much longer does it take to realise, whatever humans may say and do, doesn't actually impact on the credibility of the thing (i.e God) they're writing about. Or, to be more succinct: did you ever believe in God or only in the faith you acquired as an accident of birth?
There is no good evidence to support the existence of any god, including the god of the Bible. If it was demonstrated to exist, it would be rational to believe it and being an atheist would be the irrational position
@@JRRTokeKing Regardless of the lack of so-called evidence, the vast majority of humans who have ever lived, the vast majority alive today, have believed and do believe in a supernatural realm - including God. If 3 people said there was a flasher in the park, most would accept the evidence. When literally millions do "believe", then it is reasonable to suppose the emphasis is on those who don't believe, to bring forth the evidence and reasons for adopting such an extraordinary stance.
Liberal Xians provide cover for the other kind. Also, he addresses that somewhat by saying the hypothesis that the entire thing (religions generally, and xianity specifically) is entirely humanly created and explainable as a social phenomenon w/o needing to resort to supernatural beliefs, seems to him a more straightforward hypothesis. Why add the unnecessary additional entity(ies), mental gymnastics and such when they aren't needed?
@@andrewfisherman3811 My friend, you can use this same argument to say that flat Earthers or YEC's are justified in their beliefs.
For most of human history, we had no concept of empiricism or history. We described everything through a lens of narrative and agency.
We were wrong about pretty much everything for most of the existence of our species.
The fact that many people still persist in believing in things they have no good reason to today is not a reason to assume that some of them must or even might be right. And, this still doesn't get you to any specific supernatural entity. And, the fact that everybody comes up with their own idea about the supernatural is a mark against the premise, as you now have a prior probability of any one claim being correct somewhere in the range of 1/several billion. And there's still a chance that none of them are correct, one with much higher prior probability.
If 3 people say there is a flasher in the park, what you have is 3 claims, not 3 pieces of evidence.
Finally, it is up to the person making the claim to demonstrate their claim.
If I told you that I own a real live unicorn. It is not now nor will it ever be your responsibility to prove me wrong.
This is not a popularity contest. It is belief. If I do not demonstrate my unicorn, you have no reason to believe me and no responsibility towards my claim.
@@rainbowkrampus A very interesting example of quasi-techno-babble. If you want to make a point I'll try to answer it. Otherwise I'm trying to deal with something that resembles a religious rant.
as a non Christian I don't understand the jail analogy. whenever I hear arguments like that I think yeah but God built the jail and sentenced me. I know I know free will but that doesn't cut it for me because he made me a sinner even if you grant Adam and eve God set them up to fail and even they failed God created the outcome of sin. God could have explained why they shouldn't have done that and not kicked them out. However let's grant all of that why would Adam and eve children be responsible for their sin? God could have let their children back in and say of course I'll give everyone a chance to obey me. However, let's even grant that why would Jesus need to die? I don't know it sounds like God is the judge the jury but also will break you out
Someone named Ancient Fiction apparently replied to me here, but CZcams won't let me reach your interesting, yet incorrect comment. I'd love to respond. Try again.
What's incorrect? That Yahweh is based on Canaanite mythology?
Nevertheless, the historical reconstruction that El was the chief god of the Israelites is not indebted only to the testimony of the (rather late) biblical witness of P. *Numerous biblical texts attest to the fact that the titles, functions, and the imagery associated with the Canaanite god El, as revealed by the Ugaritic texts and the Canaanite myth of Elkunirša, were assimilated into the profile of the deity YHWH.* According to the Ugaritic texts, El was known for his *wisdom* (e.g., KTU2 1.4.V.65[6]) and *great age* (’ab šnm, *“Father of Years,”* and drd, *“Ageless One,”* in KTU2 1.4.IV.24 and 1.10.III.6, respectively),[7] his *compassionate nature* (lţpn il dp’id, *“Kind El, the Compassionate One,”* e.g., KTU2 1.16.IV.9), his role as *father of the gods and humanity* (’ab ’adm, *“father of humanity,”* KTU2 1.14..III.47, and bny bnwt, *“creator of creatures,”* KTU2 1.17.I.24) and *creator of the cosmos.* [8] El was the *divine King* (e.g., KTU2 1.2.III.5-6) and the *head of the pantheon or divine council* (referred to variously as the dr ’il, *“circle of El/Family of El,”* KTU2 1.15.III.19; mpħrt bn ’il, *“the assembly of the sons of El,”* KTU2 1.65.3; bn ’il, *“the sons of El,”* KTU2 1.40.33, 41; pħr kbbm, *“assembly of the stars,”* KTU2 1.10.I.3-4; ‘dt ’ilm, *“assembly of the gods,”* KTU2 1.15.II.7; cf. KTU2 1.2.I; 1.3V; 1.4 IV-V) which met at the sacred mountain. *His consort was the goddess Athirat who bore him seventy sons* (šb‘m bn ’atrt, *“the seventy sons of Athirat,”* KTU2 1.4.VI.46). El was also known for his *divine patronage and blessing of progeny to humans* (as in the Epic of Kirta; see, for example, KTU2 1.14.III.46-51), for his *appearances to humans in dreams* (e.g., KTU2 1.14.I.35-37), as *being a healer* (KTU2 1.16.V-VI), and for his *dwelling at the sacred mountain* (e.g., KTU2 1.2.III.5-6) at the *sources of the mythical rivers* (KTU2 1.2.III.4; 1.3.V.6; 1.4.IV.20-22; 1.17.V.47-48) in a *tent* (KTU2 1.2.III.5; 1.3.V.8; 1.4.IV.24; 1.17.V.49; c.f. the Canaanite myth Elkunirša which *describes El’s abode as a tent[9]).[10]*
*To underscore the fact that terminology and imagery originally used for the god El was adopted by the Israelites in their descriptions of YHWH,* the following brief summary might be placed in comparison to the discussion of El above: YHWH is an *aged, patriarchal deity* (Ps. 102:28; Job 36:26; Is. 40:28; Dan. 7.9-14, 22), *a father* (Deut. 32:6; Is. 63:16; 64:7; Jer. 3:4, 19; 31:9, etc.), *merciful and gracious* (Ex. 34:6; Jon. 4:2; Joel 2:13; Ps. 8615; 103:8; 145:8, etc.), *a divine patron who bestows the blessing of progeny upon Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,* often manifesting himself in *dreams or visions, a healer* (Gen. 20:17; Num. 12:13; 2 Kgs. 20:5, 8; Ps. 107:20, etc.), who *dwells in a tent* (Ps. 15:1; 27:6; 91:10; 132:3) *amidst the heavenly waters* (Ps. 47:5; 87; Is. 33: 20-22; Ez. 47:1-12, etc.), the *creator of the cosmos,* who is enthroned as *heavenly King* in the *divine council* (1 Kgs. 22:19; Is. 6:1-8; cf. Ps. 29:1-2; 82; 89: 5-8, etc.) on the *sacred mount of assembly* (e.g., Is. 14:13). Additionally, in much Israelite religious practice throughout the monarchic period, *YHWH had a divine consort, the goddess Asherah, the Hebrew equivalent of Ugaritic Athirat.[11]* (Originally the wife of El)
*"When Jehovah Was Not the God of the Old Testament. Part II - theyellowdart"*
Watch Dr Christine Hayes who lectures on the Hebrew Bible at Yale University. Watch lecture 7 from 30:00 minutes onwards and lecture 8 from 12:00 to 19:00 minutes.
Watch *"Pagan Origins of Judaism"* by Sigalius Myricantur and read the description in the video to see the scholarship the video is based on.
Watch *"How Monotheism Evolved"* by Sigalius Myricantur and watch up to at least 21:40.
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In addition, look up the below articles.
*"Jews and Arabs Descended from Canaanites - Biblical Archaeology Society."*
("The study in Cell not only establishes that the ancient Israelites were ***descended from the Canaanites,*** but also establishes that the Canaanite people across the separate city-states of the southern Levant, and over a period of 1,500 years, were a genetically cohesive people.")
*"The Canaanites weren't annihilated, they just 'moved' to Lebanon - The Times of Israel."*
*"Ancient Canaanite religion explained - everything.explained.today"*
*"Archeology of the Hebrew Bible - NOVA - PBS"*
("Many scholars now think that *most of the early Israelites were originally Canaanites, displaced Canaanites,* displaced from the lowlands, from the river valleys, displaced geographically and then displaced ideologically.")
*"Origins of Judaism explained - everything.explained.today"*
("According to the current academic historical view, the origins of Judaism lie in the Bronze Age amidst polytheistic ancient Semitic religions, ***specifically evolving out of Ancient Canaanite polytheism,*** then co-existing with Babylonian religion, and syncretizing elements of Babylonian belief into the worship of Yahweh as reflected in the early prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible. (The Torah)".
*Refer to the bibliography at the bottom of the page)*
*"Canaanite languages - Britannica"*
("Group of Northern Central or Northwestern Semitic languages including ***Hebrew,*** Moabite, Phoenician, and Punic.")
*"Polytheism and Ancient Israel’s Canaanite Heritage. Part V - theyellowdart"*
("Of course, much of this [i.e., that Israel worshiped El and Asherah alongside YHWH] is really to be expected given that recent syntheses of the archaeological, cultural, and literary data pertaining to the emergence of the nation of Israel in the Levant show that *most of the people who would eventually compose this group were originally Canaanite.")*
*"El - New World Encyclopedia"*
(Refer to the section "El Outside the Bible" and the fact that *most of the early Israelites were originally indigenous or displaced Canaanites)*
*"El (deity) explained - everything.explained.today"*
(Refer to section "Ugarit and the Levant" and the fact that *most of the ancient Israelites were originally indigenous or displaced Canaanites* and see how El, later conflated with Yahweh (Yahweh-El(ohim)) is fictional)
*"The Gods and Goddesses of Canaan - Essay - The Metropolitan Museum of Art - Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History"*
*"His Name is Allah, History of Truth"*
(The fictional Canaanite god El that the Israelite patriarchs worshipped is the same fictional god of the Muslims)
*"Canaanite Phoenician Origin of the God of the Israelites."*
*"The Phoenician (Canaanite) God Resheph in the Bible - Is That in the Bible?"*
*"God's Wife Edited Out of the Bible - Almost."*
(Pay attention to whose wife Asherah (Athirat) is in the Ugaritic/Canaanite texts and how she became the wife of YHWH/Yahweh)
*"Yahweh's Divorce from the Goddess Asherah in the Garden of Eden - Mythology Matters."*
*"Married Deities: Asherah and Yahweh in Early Israelite Religion - Yahweh Elohim."*
*"Asherah, God's Wife in Ancient Israel. Part IV - theyellowdart"*
*"The Gates of Ishtar - Anath in the Elephantine Papyri"*
(It appears in addition to Asherah (Athirat) being the consort of Yahweh it also appears some Israelites also viewed the Canaanite goddess Anat(h) as Yahweh's consort)
*"How the Jews Invented God and Made Him Great- Archaeology - Haaretz."*
*"When the Jews believed in other gods - Archaeology - Haaretz"*
*"The Invention of God - Maclean's"*
*"The Boundaries of the Nations - Yahweh Elohim."*
*"Excerpt from “Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan” by John Day - Lehi's Library."*
*"How Did the Bible’s Editors Conceal Evidence of Israelite Polytheism - Evolution of God by Robert Wright."*
*"A Theologically Revised Text: Deuteronomy 32:8-9 - Ancient Hebrew Poetry."*
*"Biblical Contradiction #3: Which God is the Creator of the Heavens and Earth: Yahweh or El?"*
*"Biblical Contradiction #27. Are Yahweh and El the Same God or Not?"*
*"Biblical Contradiction **#294**, **#295**, **#296**. Which god liberated Israel from Egypt: Yahweh or El?"*
*"Mark Smith: "Yahweh as El’s Son & Yahweh's Ascendancy - Lehi's Library."*
*"Quartz Hill School of Theology - B425 Ugarit and the Bible."*
*"The Origins of Yahweh and the Revived Kenite Hypothesis - Is That in the Bible?"*
*"Yahweh, god of metallurgy - Fewer Lacunae."*
*"Polytheistic Roots of Israelite Religion - Fewer Lacunae."*
*"Yahweh was just an ancient Canaanite god. We have been deceived! - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"*
*"Religious Studies: El, Yahweh and the Development of Monotheism in Ancient Israel."*
*"Decoupling YHWH and El - Daniel O. McClellan."*
*"Yhwh, God of Edom - Daniel O. McClellan."*
*"God, Gods, and Sons (and Daughters) of God in the Hebrew Bible. Part III - theyellowdart"*
*"God and the "Sons of God" - Yahweh Elohim"*
*"The Most Heiser: Yahweh and Elyon in Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32 - Religion at the Margins"* based on the *majority scholarly consensus.*
(Written by Thom Stark who is a Christian)
*"Michael Heiser: A Unique Species? - Religion at the Margins"*
(A second response to Michael Heiser)
*"The Syncretization of Yahweh and El : reddit/AcademicBiblical"*
(For a good summary of all of the above articles)
@@epicofatrahasis3775 Wow, you wasted a lot of time typing a bunch of crap. I don't give a rat's ass about what the Ugarits said about their false God - it's not THE God. The same descriptors might be used to describe Hitler and Stalin - does that mean they're the same person? Of course not. Also I do not care what the biased output of a bunch of atheist scholars, with an agenda, says.
B Good, just a word of advice from someone with experience in audio/video recording. You sound like you’re in a barrel, and all you need to do to make it better is bring the mic to about 12” or less to your mouth. The further the mic is the higher you have to turn up the gain and the more room reverb you pick up.
Time always limit greatest Carnevale games of life does entertain by serious repeats under sun does hint nothing new.
BRADY SEE IF U CAN GET THE AMBASSADOR TO JOIN U FOR A VIDEO ON IS GOD REAL DEBATE WE NEED ANSWERS
Christianity creates the problem by inventing a soul that can be lost ...
I watch his wife with Bart Erdman all the time. 😂😂😂
Apologetics is great…same as flat earth arguments.
I love your hypocrisy at about minute 43:00 - in any other ancient text you would try to read it to see if it can be internally reconciled, but the Bible never is allowed this. For example Appian and Plutarch give entirely contradictory accounts of the Third Servile War, yet there must be a way to read them compatibly, because that war obviously happened (or maybe it didn't!). It is perfectly plausible that copying errors are the reason some versions of the Torah give ludicrous numbers for the Exodus. {again of course Herodotus does the same thing for Darius's invasion of Greece, yet I have never heard a suggestion that makes the whole campaign story a fiction - again double standard for the Bible and other ancient texts]
To accuse either of us of "hypocrisy" you'd have to know how much stake we put in Appian and Plutarch's writings as 'historical'... and more to the point as 'divinely inspired' don't you think 🤔
@@ichapod Well? Are they historical? Did the Third Servile war happen? Yes or no? And if it did how do you square these totally contradictory accounts? [answer that and then we can talk about how from your comment you don't have a clue about what "divinely inspired" actually means in relation to the Bible]
@@inwalters dang we have a scholar on our hands who knows more than the actual experts on this matter. Get your Nobel prize!
@Ivan Walters the fact that you think your tone and approach is inviting 🤣 ... and that I'd want to dialog with you in light of it 😳 Even if I thought I could stop your very mouth from daring to speak such haughty words with just a few simple questions... and then leave your virtual carcus on this message board, displayed for passers-by to behold and gasp in utter horror, such that you become a by-word on the internet from this day forth in perpetuity, like a staked head on a Roman road, or a crucified, failed messiah on a Roman cross....warning others not to follow suit. Even if I were 100% confident of that outcome from engaging you...Or even if, thru dialog, we became the best of friends, gaining understanding and mutual respect of one another's worldview and sincerity.. such that i could call you whenever i had need and you could do likewise unto me.. if i could be assured of that outcome...I might still choose not to entertain you any longer simply because of your unnecessarily saucy, foolhardy retort. Not your awkward introduction, that I was willing to overlook for the sake of dialog. But the follow-up, the failed follow-up is what has offended mine sensibilities.
Why the long response? Well, I just felt like wasting your time like you wasted mine. Feel free to have the last word. I can promise you that I won't read it. 😏
Be well.
@@JRRTokeKing "Actual experts"! Don't make me laugh. More like complete ignoramuses
A walking treasure indeed! Hehe
The OT has yet to be translated. The little- but significant- parts Kamal Salibi has translated tells a different ‘story,’ “The Bible Came from Arabia “, 1985, plus his 3 other bible study books. So Bowen knows very little.Sad but true.
QĐQ+Q+QQA
watched the whole thing. let's start with something you're not going to like; Bowen saying he was a christian and lived it, can be true in the sense that he believed it is true (more than head-knowledge ( like his mom said on the phone) and live his live as a christian, committed to those beliefs and desire's that come from it and still not be born again (see mat 7: 21). he said he got saved at 5?! that's a big red flag. did not hear him talk about a born-again experience and the witness of the Holy Spirit. around 58:20. i will watch his interview with Michael Brown too.
i agree with Joshua Bowen that an appeal to 1joh 2: 19 (they went from us they were not of us) is not helpful and ad hoc.
overall i really like Dr. Bowen! seems like a really sincere and nice dude.
i also don't understand the shift from a fundamentalist christian to belief the proposition no Gods exists. that
's a tall order. in all the debates in listened to (atheists vs William Lane Craig for example), i never heard a good argument for that claim. agnosticism seems more reasonable.
around the 15th minute, you ask the audience what that means for our theology. as a calvinist i see no problems. although i am sympathetic to the intuition a non-believer has. because let's be real, it's really harsh what we believe. we were thrown into existence without having a say. in a fallen state, under God's wrath. and if He doesn't regenerate you and save you, then you are going to hell ( even if you believe in conditional eternal life and annihilationism like Chris Date then you still suffer in this life and get destroyed).
one thing i do respect you both for is that you follow where you think the truth leads you. Bill Craig's professor told Him, if God exists then all truths are God's truths, so we shouldn't be scared to go where the truth leads us. i have some topic lines up to study, one is evolution. and i will go where the truth leads me.
It’s not hard to imagine people losing their belief in the existence of any gods when the evidence supporting this claim is so lacking. I went from fundamentalist to atheist after I realized there is not a good reason to be convinced a god exists. It’s irrational to believe something exists without good evidentiary backing.
- The Gospel of Jesus was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own.
The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story.
It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.
@@JRRTokeKing You're name lolol ...great!
@David777 I appreciate much of that.
@@ichapod lol, glad you like it 😂
I am in the same situation as Josh and Bart Ehrman having a wife that is a christian. I would be interested to hear their side of the story and how their relationships work, because it's not impossible having a large disagreement but it is somewhat difficult. Maybe it just gets easier with time. Dealing with very evangelical family is very tough as well. I am guessing the wives are not evangelical. Are men more likely to be atheist than women? I will have to do some googling.
Good questions
Opposite here… and I was also happy to hear they make it work. As I grow bolder in my own stance…he seems to be pulling tighter to his faith. It’s been tricky around here. I wish there were more of us sharing our experiences with this. 😂