38 55 Disaster
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- čas přidán 13. 12. 2023
- I'm looking for suggestions on this one. I've never had a rifle give me so much accuracy trouble than this Crazy Horse Commemorative Winchester Model 1894 in 38-55. I love the 38-55 and have had great experiences with the caliber. But this bore is terribly inconsistent in diameter and, quite frankly, I'm disgusted with it. The sights are nothing to brag about either. I hope you've never had an experience like this, but , if you have, please share your insights. I'd appreciate your help.
Look up how to lap a barrel. You should be able to get an extremely consistent bore. Not sure if that information is available on the internet, there used to be info on this in print.
Depending on how large the worst area is, you might wind up requiring oversize bullets.
You might try calling some of the barrel makers for advice on lapping procedures. I’m pretty sure it’s still a common practice done on best quality barrels.
Try a bullet mold with proud driving bands on the grease grooves. Cast some soft lead bullets. The bands will swage down the bore when fired.
Sorry about your problems. Glad you posted it. I've never heard of this stuff. I'm a 63 year old life long hunter. Retired Navy. Good luck.!
My CCH has the same problem, but, I ended up powder coating my handcast until they reached (.381") and groups tightened to under 2" @ 40yds with irons. Granted 40yds isn't a long distance, that zero should keep me good @ 100yds. If you have some cast that are undersized and want to powder coat those, just heat the oven to 400*F and let them bake about (15-20 mins.) or until you see the powder coating starting to flow and smooth out. I cast with Lyman 2 and water quinch, getting around 18bhn., NO Problem with leading and no gascheck. I'd also suggest getting an Expander Die from Track-of-the-wolf for the diameter you need. After full length sizing, just expand the depth you need to get the c.o.a.l. you need, that'll prevent set-back and you won't be swaging the bullet as you seat it. A good roll crimp or (my preferred, Lee Factory Crimp). Note: Each time you powder coat, it'll increase the dia. about (.002"). Eastwood is the coating I use (copper/bronze) coats good, as does most other colors, black doesn't coat good and takes several coats.
Dan Lilja is in your neck of the woods (at least driving distance) and he is among the most knowledgeable about rifle barrels on the planet. Why not get his input, on video?
I think he'd be interested, as would everyone else. He has a high-end borescope, and more importantly, he knows how to use it and interpret the imagery. The questions roughly fall into two categories:
1) what is degrading accuracy and what can be done about it;
2) What is wrong with these Winchester/Browning/Miroku barrels? Shoddy machining, damage, erosion, or what? Are all Winchester barrels like that?
I think he'd definitely give you an interview - you have a sizable and growing channel, you're an author, you're a credentialed historian - and we could all learn from the experience. He might even be able to make you a replacement barrel mimicking the original Winchester contour.
Also it would be good if you can to rebarrel with his guidance and video the process! That would be a fun video, from his initial thoughts to the successful solution. Then take it hunting for video #4.
@@peteandresenfamilyadventur8742that would be great. Lilja really focuses on long range bolt guns, but this offers an opportunity to really showcase how much a good rifle barrel matters. He can make anything I am sure, but this in intriguing enough I think he might want to do it.
I have 5 Lilja barrels and I'd definitely like to see the whole process.
Oh ya! If you live near lilja, that’s THE man for ya. If he can’t figure something out…. No one can.
A side note... Back in the 70s when I was stationed at Great Falls, a gunsmith showed me a new, in the box, Canadian Centennial carbine. Handed me a dummy round, and challenged me to chamber the cartridge. Not only was the re no chamber, there was also no rifling! The kicker is that Big Red let the rifle slip out WITH receiver AND barrel proof marks! He also had the latest letter from WW offering $10k for the rifle and his silence. Last time I saw it was in 1976 in his shop just outside Malmstrom AFB. Even the best outfits have bad days.
I suspect mine was build on January 2nd when the guys should have stayed home with the bottle flu. Thanks for the comments. Very interesting and only a few years before my gun. Todd
There used to be several companies that would drill out the original barrels and sleeve them. It was advertised as returning accuracy to older firearms without changing the outer appearance. It was also less expensive than trying to replace the barrel.
They still do it, depending on the caliber and outside barrel demention. You got to have enough meat left on the barrel to work with.
@@Bhartrampf I would think a 38/55 would be a low enough pressure cartridge the you could getaway with a pretty thin liner. I have seen articles on relining many older guns that were basically just in shooter condition lined to make useful guns out of.
@@jamesnelson1968 I have done it several times, it is a depends situation
How expensive is a service like this nowadays? Feels like all the "smiths" in my area would charge thousands.
@@pcblah There are companies that specialize in doing this, I don't know the price but I would think it would be cheaper that re-barreling.
Slug it from the breach and see what that diameter is, then try that diameter in hard cast. Just a inch or two into the breach end. When I slug old guns for cast, I do both and go with the breach end if it is larger. If the muzzle is larger, I normally either re-line it or replace the barrel. Their are gunsmiths and or barrel makers that will make a new quality barrel for you also, but it will lose it's collectability, but at least make it usable.
That’s tough to do with an action like that.
Not that hard, guns come apart. @@johncorder2912
@@johncorder2912 not really, just remove the bolt a 94 isn't bad, plus it has to get cleaned and lubed sometime.
I'm by no means a gunsmith or barrel maker. However I have been told from knowledgeable sources that when a gunsmith gets a barrel blank they will always cut the chamber on the large end of the blank crown the small end for the muzzle. So your barrel may be correct with the muzzle end being smaller then the breach/chamber end of your barrel. As a previous post said you may want to size your bullets to the breach diameter. This would make your bullets slightly larger than the muzzle diameter. Instead of.380 diameter you may be at .382. If that works that would be alot cheaper than a rebarrel! Good luck 😊
My fear is that a few 1000s wouldn't do it and at what point does the pressure get high enough to become a real problem. I am curious to know the breech end diameter though. Thanks, Todd
It's actually common when loading muzzleloading rifles with pure or nearly pure lead bullets that they will get part way down the barrel then the bullet metal "gives up" as the lands/grooves have displaced the lead and then it slides down easily. It doesn't necessarily mean the barrel is out of spec. I use a lot of 40-1 alloy when I cast muzzleloader bullets for this exact reason. It "sticks" to the rifling better when loading and stays on the powder charge when hunting. The fact that you mention your Browning 1886 seemingly slugging the same way is only confirming my suspicions. I have the exact same Crazy Horse rifle and my barrel also is .380" groove diameter. I load my home cast .3815" gas checked bullets from an LBT mold in Starline brass with RL-7 powder. I also use a Williams receiver sight. My rifle shoots excellent. They did make 19,999 of the Crazy Horse model so it's certainly possible a bum one went out. I have three Winchester commemoratives in 38-55, 30-30, and 32 Win Spl. from the '70's -'80's and they all shoot fine. I also have two Browning 1886's which are very accurate. I think your rifle will shoot fine if you load larger bullets.
I've slugged several barrels using pure lead...and have experienced the easing of pressure required to push the slug. However...I've never had the slug completely drop down the barrel without any pressure! I think he definitely has a problem barrel there. Especially since the slugs drop at the exact same point in the barrel...and then stop again further down.
I have a long barreled rifle in 38-55, with factory tang sight, made in 1900. Fun to shoot (mostly with handloads) and I love the caliber so much that I bought a 16" Trapper carbine! That was almost 40 years ago, and I haven't shot that one yet. The 38-55 works great with HARD cast bullets and IMR 3031 in my LONG rifle. Thanks for the video!
About 30 years ago, I bought a JM Marlin 336CB with 24” octagonal barrel chambered in 38-55. I was reloading at the time and the first thing I did was slug the barrel to verify bullet size for this cartridge chambering. I had read that some rifles had a .375” bore and some had a .380” bore. The slug miked at .380” so I obtained a supply of .380” hard cast RNFP bullets and worked up some loads. I found mine would group 1-1/2” with the occasional flyer. I thought this was pretty good since I had trouble seeing the target…bad vision. I had the rifle setup in a bench rest to verify load accuracy. I also mounted a Lyman tang sight on mine. I’m not a fan of the buckhorn factory sights. My rifle’s bore was tight the full length. Had to drive the slug all the way.
Greem Mountain Rifle Barrel Co. makes .38-55 barrels with a 1-12" twist. Should handle any reasonable bullet length. With the original barrel, have it relined with a Track of the Wolf barrel liner. they sell 2 different groove diameters, .375" or .379".
I would do a chamber cast in order to accurately measure not only bore/groove, but also the lead/throat area. Sometimes you’ll need an even larger diameter bullet to fill the throat area in order to gain accuracy. Measuring the mouth OD & ID on a fired case might give you an indication of what you’re up against.
A progressive tightness / choking of the bore is not unheard of..
But as @jamesnelson1968 said.
Bore out dnd sleeve the barrel.
I do also think that is the best way to go.
Hope you find a good solution.
Keep up the good work 👍
A progressive tightness / choking of the bore is not unheard of..
But as @jamesnelson1968 said.
Bore out dnd sleeve the barrel.
I do also think that is the best way to go.
I have had the polar opposite results with a Uberti/Cimarron 1894 38/55. The bore slugged out correctly but as received NIB would not feed any length case with correct bullets seated at the crimp groove. Sent back to Cimarron they kept it 4 moths and did nothing to correct the feeding problem. Instead their gunsmith blamed my reloading procedures. Well BS. I have been reloading 50 years so I know my way around. So I fixed it myself. As a bonus it frequently misfired so I had to fix that as well.
Never spend my money on another Cimarron or Uberti.
I had a 1902 production rifle in 38-55 that shot fantastic and I wanted a carbine in 38-55 for hunting. I bought a 30-30 commerative from the early 1980s that had not been stored properly and had a rusty bore. Jess at JES Reboring turned it into a 38-55 with a .375 Bore and it is a fantastic shooter. So far I have stuck with Lyman 375449 and 3031, it works so good I have not tried jacketed bullets. My suggestion would be to call Jess (He has a website.) and talk about the best way to get a barrel that he can rebore for you. Sorry Winchester meant for these rifles to be collected and not shot. Merry Christmas!
I'd recommend getting hold of another 'Tuber/gunsmith/rancher over in eastern Oregon , channel is called The Cinnabar. He's done some bang up resto's using barrels from an outfit that has very precise rollmarks, if that's a consideration. Otherwise, it shouldn't be that tough to have a new barrel turned and installed, and keep the original in the closet. They don't cost much to feed. If interested, I've a 1-16 twist .375 blank that I picked up from The Montana Rifle Co over by Flathead Lake several years back when I had them do some work on my 1999 bolt gun. I was going to put it on a 336 I have kicking around, but age and lack of funds has caught up to me. I'd donate this blank, if you wanted to go that way.
Thanks Darrel, This is a very kind gesture. I'll think about that. I was considering a new barrel if it came to that and keeping the old barrel so the commemorative could be whole again if need be. Thanks for commenting. Todd
P.S. The Cinnabar channel is a good idea as well. He knows what he's doing.
I second that motion on collaboration with The Cinnabar. I have watched his videos, and he knows what he’s talking about.
@@davidpayne3604I doubt he’d touch new production. He specializes on late models.
Ross Seyfried (sp?) wrote an article years ago about "fire lapping" a barrel. Use a soft lead bullet with an abrasive and light loads. There is a kit for this purpose that comes with coarse and fine abrasive. As you shoot it removes metal from the tight spots. It should end up opened up to a more uniform diameter
They did a follow-up article about it and found that it mostly just eroded the throat. They concluded that it should be used as a last-ditch effort, as it shortened barrel life. With today's button rifled and hammer forged barrels, this shouldn't be happening. With cut rifled and not hand lapped, there was a real reason for fire lapping.
Good Morning Todd. I had a frustrating experience with Winchester a few years ago over accessories for a modern Highwall. It's a long story so I won't waste your time. At the end ( sold the rifle) I concluded that Winchester is now nothing more than a money counting office and ( in my experience) there was not anything resembling a gunsmith or mechanic or machinist anywhere in the company. I am from CT. and years ago you could travel from Hartford to New Haven and pass Colt, Marlin, High Standard, and Winchester. just crickets and mice there now. Making these commemorative units seems to be lipstick on a pig. Love my Shiloh Sharps. Real skilled craftsmen making quality rifles, shouldn't be the exception.
I'm with you on Shiloh. Extremely high quality work. Thanks for commenting, Todd
I've never heard of choked firearm barrels but I know air rifle barrels are for the last inch or two for better accuracy. As the .38/55 was originally a black powder cartridge, my advice would be to try black powder with soft or softish lead. You could also try light smokeless loads and lead up to 1250 fps before throwing in the towel.
I’ve had frustrating problems with Marlin (JM), Smith and Wesson, Ruger, & Uberti. The most terrible was S&W in the 1970’s. The Marlin 94 44mag I had to ‘beagle’ a bullet mold. This where you put strips of high temperature flu tape on one side of the the mold to increase the diameter of the bullet because the bore diameter was too large with commercial bullets. I worked with that 94 for a year. The action screws in a Marlin have to be real tight or it shoots like a shotgun, also. Don’t feel like the Lone Ranger on this but it does make you real mad. Good luck Doc.
Thanks for the info. I have an 80's manufacture Browning 45-70 as well. I'll try slugging mine just for fun. Kind of scared to though. The rifle seems to shoot ok, but my eyesight isn't what it used to be. Guess I'll have to go out to the range this week.
I was gonna suggest the black powder like you said. And use an over powder vege wad to protect the bullet base.
Two things I would try. First, try bullets the diameter of the barrel at the chamber end, and if that doesn’t work, send the barrel,to Robert Hoyt for a reline. I’ve seen you shoot, and it ain’t you.
Really enjoy your videos, hope you get this straightened out soon.
Merry Christmas to you and yours.
I have a Winchester Big Bore XTR in 375 Win made in 1979 with a similar accuracy issue. Several inch spread at 50 yards with a Williams peep both with 375 Win and 38-55. I've tried several reloading recipies for both rounds including lead, copper jacket, gas checked lead projectiles, varied seating depth and tried several powders. I'm an experienced reloader for many years and this rifle just stumps me. I'll slug the barrel to see if that's the issue. I understand your frustration, I hate it when a beautiful rifle or pistol won't shoot worth a darn.
Hand lapp from breech end or fire lapp, it works, had a 30-30 same thing ,now very accurate
I suggest using paper patch 20:1 alloy bullets at around 1300-1500 fps. The paper will fill up the bore and be discarded at the muzzle.
I have a CCH too. I slugged my bbl in 1989 and ended up with .380dia. I size My #375449 & #375248 at .381dia. Cast of Linotype to get the largest diameter bullets. Probably why Lyman changed the #375248 to #380681. I put a no-name tang sight on it and replaced the rear sight with a fold down blade. I have experience with the Legendary Frontiersman too. My CCH groups into 2 1/4" from the bench at 100yrds.
Had the chamber polished too. Those .381dia bullets are a bit of a tight fit, but it works. Shoots very clean with a heavy (still under max) charge of IMR3031.
There is a fellow out in Wyoming, Randy (website online) who does custom barrels rebores and rechambers. I've never used him, but my best friend is about to send a rifle to him for some custom work. Since you are essentially over bored already, you would probably need a new barrel if you want to keep it 38-55. Or rebore/rechamber. I bought a Model 94 in .44 Mag. back in 1973 that can drive tacks at 100 yards with commercial ammo. With carefully handloaded ammo, it does quite well at 200. Quality went down in the 60s when they attempted to modernize production. The action on my 94 is a bit sloppy but has worked all these years. I will never buy another Winchester branded 'new', post 1980 rifle. Good luck, Doc.
Howdy, my experience is with the 375 Winchester. A Marlin with a terrible bore.
But, I shoot 38-55 loads in it. In .375 brass. And surprisingly I get excellent accuracy with the Lyman #375449.
Now, because of the drastically oversized bore. I would recommend the Lyman #378674 . Cast of wheel weight. lubed and unsized. with a Walters wad. If you get the bullet to obturate it should fill out the bore. And 25 of rel-7 should do the trick. That’ll give you real close to 1575 fps with about 1844 foot pounds. And it’s a 335 grain bullet made for the 35-55. You just might be stuck with a cast bullet gun like me.
But Pard, I shoot cast in almost all my guns. And if I’m not mistaken the 38-55 was originally a target gun. Marlin Ballard ? With that 335 bullet. Don’t quote me on that.
Good luck getting your shootin iron a shootin.
Sincerely.
Rick.
(a good gunsmith can fix it without replacing the full barrel) great video ! sorry to hear you have a bummed rifle! unfortunate... I have seen Poor QC out of Henry rifles too.. .22 LR lever. bolt plate wore through in about 300 rounds. henry model 1860 in 44-40 same thing with yours tight for 8" then fell though.. witch sucks for blank powder even more.. ( you could take it to a gunsmith and ask for a berrel sleeve in 38-55.) he will Ream out the old riffling, and allow for the New Barrel Liner to go in. just get a good smith!
I collect Winchester rifles, and while the Model 94/64 are not my favorites, I have more of them than any other, just because there are many of them available and were always the most affordable. I never collected any of the "commemoratives".
I do have original 1894s in .38-55. The bores usually slug at about .379". I use cast bullets sized to .380" in .38-55 cases. Normally I use bullets cast from straight wheelweights. You can vary the alloy to change hardness. Unless you are going for high velocity, wheelweights work fine.
You don't need hollow base bullets or gas checks and you don't need to use black powder.
That would be my suggestion...Cast bullets, sized .380", wheelweights or Lyman #2 alloy hardness. The Lyman loading manual is an excellent one for cast bullet load recipes.
If you don't cast bullets, there are many sources for cast bullets. If necessary, call the makers of cast bullets and tell them what you need, they will usually accommodate you, but may require a minimum purchase for a custom order.
Yes, paperpatch to .380, I have a legendary frontiersman , running Lee 255 grain lead cast, paper patched, 8 rains of trailboss
@@lillyrayman1370 If you want to go that route, try teflon tape rather than paper. One or two wraps will do it.
@@garyK.45ACP good on ya, mate. Would have never thought of that! Paper patches are a b!tch, so if it's easier...!
@@lillyrayman1370 I've tried it with good results. And it is easier than paper patches. A little experimentation and you find the proper length you need to cut the tape. However...I usually don't use paper or teflon tape patches.
I cast and size my own bullets, so it is easier for me to just choose a different size die and label the bullets for specific guns if necessary.
Wheelweight bullets, sized .001" over groove diameter and loaded to less than 1800 fps. usually gives very good results.
I like Hodgdon IMR 3031 for the .38-55
@@garyK.45ACP Good on ya, mate. Thank you.
Another thought I forgot to mention was velocity.
The factory Winchester 255gr. JSP is supposed to be (1,320fps), although I never chronographed them, they shot rather well from my CCH.
I haven't bought ammo since I started casting myself and based on recoil, my loads are rather light and group isn't too bad.
If you know your velocity, try slowing it down if over (1,300fps) and see if that helps.
If I remember correctly, manual shows a "Cast 250 gr." with charge of IMR4198 around 23gr.
I ended up at 19gr. before I got acceptable results with my handcast 240ish gr. and haven't had any signs of pressure.
Note: I only shot mine at 40yds. since most all my shots will likely be no more than that, and should still be good enough @ 100yds for deer sized game.
My 375 WIN. will shoot the same bullets, "sized .376" for this rifle at over (1,700fps) with great accuracy. Cuts away a 1"dot @ 40yds if I can hold it steady.
The only diiference I could possibly see for this is that, (38-55 has a 1:18 twist) and (375 WIN. has a 1:12 twist) and not bullet construction, (bhn18) with #2Lyman water quinched.
In 1978 I bought a new 95 Marlin in 45-70 that wouldn't chamber a cartridge, it would only chamber up to the ogive of the bullet. The rifle was marked model 95 and 45-70 or 45 Government I can't remember which it was proof marked and all. I think it might have been a 444 Marlin, anyway I returned it to the store and they replaced it with one that that would chamber a round but shot groups about like what you are getting with the 38-55.
I recently bought a 1918 manufactured 1894 in 38-55 and after watching this I'm really glad I did ! I haven't made it to the range yet with it but I'm betting the accuracy will be better than a more recenctly produced rifle . Alonst bought a new one made in Japan but I really wanted an original Winchester . The gun has been reblued and the barrel has been shortend a few inches but the bore looks great . That's a shame about your rifle , good luck with it . Too bad the old guns sometimes shoot better than the newer ones with all the advanced technology out there ??? I've always said quality is not as important to most companies these days as their profits are !
I also bought an older Winchester 94, made in 1917, got about 200 rounds of Winchester 38-55, wondering how it will shoot?
From what I've read those older 38-55 bores are known to have variations in bore diameter so it's probably best to slug the bore and choose your bullet size accordingly. My bore measures .379 so I'm going to try some .380 cast bullets .
I also have a 1917 manufactured 94 with 26 in. octagon barrel, wondering if it has the same inconsistent barreling.
Hello Doc, I do know how frustrating poor accuracy can be. I didn't hear in this video if you checked the crown of the barrel. My experience with a Sharps had me ready to re-barrel it, but I trued up the crown which made a huge improvement.
I hadn't thought of that. I'll take a look. Thanks, Todd
Yep, a damaged crown or barrel not cut square will definitely do it.
Haven't seen any comments made about this.
Good thinking !
Throwing a couple things out to try.... Accurate Molds can cut you a bullet mold closer in diameter, you will probably want .381-.382 for your case, make them @ 30-1 and I know you said you didn't want to stick with black powder but your results should improve since BP will bump up your bullet slight to fill the grooves. Green mountain makes seven or eight different barrels in 38-55, a bit more pricey but your getting a good barrel. C Sharps (Big Timber) can fit a new barrel to your rifle, they are currently utilizing GM barrels and they have a decent turn around time, last one they did for me ran around 700.00. Last IMHO, peddle it, take your money and order a replacement from Chiappa or Pedersoli, have had real good luck with both brands.. Good luck and keep us posted.
I have not shot anything but paper with my model 94 but I feel your pain. It is a 38-55 cal. Cimarron with a 26' barrel. Beautiful rifle but I believe it should be much more accurate then it has been. Using start loads and just below start loads of IMR 4198 under a few different weight bullets currently a lazer cast 240 grain. I get much tighter groups with my model 1873 Uberti .357 mag. 20 inch.barrel at 100 yards. One comment I read stated the model 94 shoots patterns not groups. I will continue searching for a better recipe. Good luck with your rifle. 🇺🇸
I often wondered about this, how an inconsistent barrel affects accuracy. Thank you. I had a 38-55 years ago that I sold because it was not accurate.
Back when that was made the standard was if you could hit a 9 inch pie pan that was an accurate deer rifle that was at 40 yards
I have a Winchester 1894 commemorative rifle in 38-55 manufactured in 1980. Accuracy seems fine. Pretty much as good as the original I have that was manufactured in 1907. I have not slugged the barrel.
I have one of the newer Henry side gate lever action rifles and a H&R single shot, both in 38-55, and both extremely accurate. The Henry prefers the Buffalo Bore ammunition while the H&R prefers the factory Winchester loads. I have seen others with 38-55 rifles, older ones, that had horrible barrel variances and no accuracy.
I feel your pain because I've had a number of rifles like this. My advice is to get rid of it. even if you rebarrel it, it will always be tainted.
I had a Chappelle 1876 in 45-60 that had the very same issue. Bullets keyhole so I slugged the barrel and I had the same deal where the bullet fell after about 10 inches until about 4 inches from the chamber then fell out. I sold it at a big loss to a guy who knew the issue but said he'd rebarrel it with an Italian barrel.
I’ve had the. Same issue and it’s generally an easy fix , those barrels have a slow twist rate. The fix is shoot a much lighter bullet and it’ll drill em straight no key hole. 260 -300 grain max likely. The originals same deal, 40-82 soots well with a 260 gr slug.
38-55 was originally a black powder round. work up a good black powder round with a heavy hollow base bullet. should work just fine. the game you us it on won't know the difference. neither will any paper targets. love your channel.
Well a degree of choke isn’t a real bad thing. What doesn’t work is if a tight spot is smaller than the muzzle end. You slugged from the muzzle, had a good fit three and then it got tighter 1/3 or midway down. That’s your smallest diameter. Your bullet gets swaged down via firing through that point that dances all la te da loosely down the bore after the mid barrel tight spot. The muzzle should never be wider than any other part of the barrel. You could try lapping that tight part out so it’s no tighter than the muzzle. If you do lap that out next is bullet fit.... to the throat! Especially with cast lead. Slug the throat area that lies in front of the case neck. That’s the size you want your cast to be or 0.001-2” over that. Jacketed, you will have to accept what is on the shelf. My .38-55 Taylor Arms Highwall has a wide throat and I had to custom order a mold that drops a .384” bullet. I haven’t really got mine dialed in as I have not got back to it but it wasn’t as bad as what you are dealing with.
I've only heard bad things about those 70's and 80's Winchesters. I bought mine new in 1994...it has 1894-1994 stamped into the receiver. I put a scope on it and was ecstatic when I brought it to the range and it shot 1.25" groups at a hundred yards! I ended up taking the scope off...and a year or so later a co-worker of mine and I were talking guns. I told him one of my guns was a 90's built 30-30 Winchester. He told me those guns were pieces of shit! He said he had a pre-64 in great condition and we should go to the range and he would show me how a 94 should shoot. He was right...his gun was in great shape...but he was very surprised when both of us printed groups with my gun half the size of the groups with his! I later learned that in 92 Winchester changed ownership...and started making the 94 receivers out of forged steel again...and also upgraded their barrel manufacturing methods. Of course...everything comes with tradeoffs. Great accuracy...but I have to look at that hideous cross pin safety!
The angle eject was bad enough, but that stupid push button safety did it for me. I never bought another one.
@@dickgoesinya9419 I don't mind the angle eject...but that safety is just awful! I've often thought about trading it for a pre-64. But it shoots so well...I know the chances of finding one that's as accurate are slim to none.
@@Master...deBater I understand and I didn't mean to be raggin on it. I'v had a love for lever guns for 60 years and have bought and traded some fine ones. I had a model 64 deluxe made in the late 50's that I could shoot better off-hand than any gun I ever owned. I let that one go when money got tight, thinkin I could always get another one. Boy I wish I still had that gun.
@@dickgoesinya9419 No...I totally understand. I hate the look of that thing. But then I take it to the range and ring the 200 yard eight inch steel plate at will, offhand standing with open sites. And think to myself "function over form right"...lol. I learned a long time ago...never part with a great shooter...because they're rarer than you'd think! Happy new Year!
@@Master...deBater Yes you got a good one! I remember shooting a few small sized pumpkins around the same distance with my Win. 64 30-30 150 gr silver-tips. That was many years ago. Damn, how time flies. With another one gone, Happy New Year to you as well!!
I really enjoyed the video, despite the disappointing results. I understand that some old timers paired the 38-55 rifle with a .41 colt pistol as a sort of one way combination. The. 41 was loaded with a .385 hollow based lead bullet. The short 41 pistol cases supposedly fit ok in the rifle chamber and the soft lead slugs swage to fit through the tapered chamber. No doubt it would be single shot only . But at least it would allow the rifle to be useful if you ran out of 38- 55 ammo.
Yep, had the same problem with a Browning 1892 carbine in 44mag. crap barrel, grouped like a scattergun. Pedersoli has a sterling reputation for great barrels, and in my experience Uberti is also good, I have a Uberti 1873 rifle in 38WCF, did a little work tuning it up and lighting up the safety, absolutely first class barrel, couldn’t ask for better.
Had a Ruger#1 in .243 with a barrel like that. Beautiful but never would shoot . My gunsmith found exactly what you found.
Have a original 1873 in 3220 Winchester made in 1886 with the rifling the last 2"gone and the bullets tumbling. Got a sleeve put in. Now can shoot 2" at 100yds.now it's fun to shoot,I use a reduced smokeless load. Worked for me.
To add to my post, I also have dealt with Savage Arms in Westfield Ma. A #1 company and customer service group. Hands on people with skill and proactive service. Great folks. My assessment of other companies may be a bit harsh, but I don't have the money to buy stuff that doesn't live up to the advertisement.
Uberti is offering the 1894 in 38/55. Just a thought.
I must have gotten lucky on my 94 Trails End takedown 38-55 slugged all the way .377-78.
30 + gr RE7 260 gr C-P flatnose hardcast shoots extremely well and hits hard. Sorry for your problems. It is very ridiculous that so many 38-55 rifles through the years from Winchester and Marlin were so far out of spec. I won't but the old rifles in 38-55 anymore because of this problem. Thanks
Got an idea for you Doc...Definitely use a hollow base bullet. However, instead of BP, *perhaps* you could use a progressive smokeless powder. Probably need a hard lead alloy as well.
There's lots of better comments than mine...so good luck !
Also, I think you got a real lemon. I don't think another replacement barrel would be as a bad idea. See if you can find out what year the replacement barrel was made and try to avoid the 1980's. Or some other identifier as to quality control.
Thank you for being honest.
👍👍
I know that they are a pain to disassemble, but, slug the barrel from the breech end and only shove it in about 6-8”. Then push it out the way it went in. Then size a bullet to .002 over that diameter, give those bullets a try. It goes without saying that you will need a very soft alloy. As the bullet starts out from the chamber it will swage itself down on the way out.
Dr. Kesner can we get an update on the faulty winchester barrel if you haven't already? Good luck with this issue sir and I'll be watching. And Merry Christmas to you and yours. 🇺🇸
I'm still exploring my options, but will post a video about as soon as I have something to demonstrate. Thanks for commenting, Todd
Hard same thing with a chippa 1886 when i slugged its bore. Tight about 4-6" then fell through
FWIW, when shooting cast lead bullets, having the last few inches of the barrel "choked" usually increases accuracy. Anschutz and other high end .22 rifle manufacturers make their barrels choked for that very reason. If the gun isn't shooting, I'd be suspicious there's something else going on causing the groups to open.
Just came back to see this again. You are now down south but gunsmiths are still around. My thought after watching this the second time, have the barrel lined with a proper bore.
What bullet alloy are you using? Maybe try softer lead so the bullet base can obturate more fully.
That really is pitiful and shameful of Winchester. I do have an idea for fix that you can keep your original barrel. I read about guys relining the barrel. Google TJ'S liners you bore out the original and sleeve. I've read posts of guys doing this for original Marlin and Winchester with great results. Good luck 🤞 and thank you 👍
Our country of “quality” has changed. Frustrations run wild when we are in a place today when things like this should not be a problem. Good luck sir
I think the only way this rifle will shoot is if you make up projectiles a thou over the breach groove diameter, that way it will size down as it exits the muzzle, but in truth this is going to be an exercise of futility, even if you get the barrel lined you will never have any trust in it. As you say it should be a quality made rifle, was it new when you bought it? Good luck with this one! Chris B.
that is a shame, as the old 38-55 is known to be a very accurate cartridge. chop it up and send it back to them....lol good luck 👍👍👍👍👍
I have a commemorative 38-55 as well.....I mold my own bullets. from mostly pure lead...mold is 379 cal 285 grain...I use 18 grains 4198....reloaded cartridge will NOT chamber,some bullets are just lubed, some I paper patch to prevent leading the bore...After reloading I remove the decapping pin from the die and run my fully loaded cartridge back into the die......Important.....only run the cartridge in far enough to resize cartridge where it will chamber, in the rifle and set die at that depth ,do not full length resize the loaded cartridge.......what this method does is to resize both case and bullet to optimal size for the rifle.Soft lead likely upsets to fill bore,accuracy is quit good,velocity is probably just over 1300....which will kill anything that walks in North America
Check with cinnabar he has a youtube channel and does a lot of repair and restorations of winchesters. He may have a barrel. Been watching him for a while seems like a good guy. If I had a barrel I would give it to ya just to see that rifle fixed. 38-55 is one of my favorite cartridges.
@A.R.American1 another one to contact would be mark novak he does alot of restorations on his ytube channel anvil.
@@rogervincent8314 yes he does I thought about cinnabar becouse I remember a video where he had talked about having extra barrels
if its been fired a bit and was not brand new i might suspect hot loads that are not burning properly leaving residue in a foot of muzzle end of the barrel , if left uncleaned for a while this will corrode the rifling , even if cleaned later for sale the damage is done , a bore scope would be nice for a look to know for sure , i had a rough used neglected win 44 mag this was done to , someone else mentioned hot lapping as an option , i say slug the bore from breech end at least 6 inches , ive heard of some 38-55 being .382 , i shot the 44 mag.431 bore clean using .432 copper jacketed projectiles in handloads , i probably put 100 oversize projectile rounds thru it but it cleaned up , cheers big ears from down under
After reading several suggestions, the bore scope idea keeps coming up. That may help determine my next move. Thanks for commenting, Todd
I would do a chamber cast and see what those dimensions are. If the chamber is large enough you could get a gas check mold cut to be a thousandth or two over the throat diameter and shoot hard cast bullets. If the chamber is tighter than the throat then your only option is a hollow base bullet. You should still be able to use smokeless powder just won't be able to hot rod it.
Re-line...?
commemorative gun are noted for having reject bbls that can not be used in their regular guns for sale in gun stores
Maybe a softer bullet, like 13 bhn or less, at the .380, with probably powder coat so you can push it fast with no leading. Or the tight spots can be polished out using paste and a bullet, such that the barrel tip is the smallest diameter in the bore. I recommend a receiver peep sight, two holes at the back of the receiver are for one, helps a ton.
Sleeve the barrel ?
Have you considered slugging the bore from the chamber end for a few inches and then sizing your bullets to .001" over that groove diameter? That would seal the bore and the soft bullet would be swagged down to the smaller diameter as it neared the muzzle. Starting with the smaller diameter bullet rattling down the bore guarantees poor accuracy. Having the bore swage to the smaller diameter makes a lot more sense. I have an Oliver F. Winchester Commemorative 1894 with a 24" octagon barrel. I haven't really tested it for accuracy. Perhaps I should. I do cast bullets for 38-55 so I can size them as needed.
From what I've seen the bore variation is common in 38 55, it's what has steered me away from it.
First slug the breech end and get maximun diameter. Use that diameter for your loading. If that doesn't deliver, your choices are to sell it or bore it out and put a proper liner in it.
Most sorry for you, but many thanks for finding the issue.
Perhaps .381" cast bullets in Lyman #2 alloy in Starline 2.085" brass may help. I shoot 30gr of 3031 under a 260gr bullet. You may need the RCBS Cowboy die set to load these since it expands the case a tad father to accept the larger diameter bullets. I hope you get it worked out.
JES reline. Or sell it by leaving it original as it is a collector rifle.
There is no projectile, nor any easy solution, that will save this barrel. Reline, rebarrel, or rebore and rerifle to a larger size. One advantage to rebore-rerifle is that you'll end up with a good bore. I'd got several and they all shoot well. I do appreciate your disappointment with quality, and also the money all this costs. Sometimes a bad project shouldn't be started, and the rifle should end up on the used rack at Capital Sports in Helena. You could easily end up with $5000 into a $1000 rifle. Then you'll grit your teeth every time you think of it. You should love the rifle. Consider sending this one down the road. Check with Cinnibar, he is quite knowledgable with Winchesters and may have a suggestion of how to get a good barrel on your rifle with Old Winchester stock. Good luck with this rifle. Randall Redmond relines barrels if he's still active. Redmond is in Omak, Washington.
I could be mistaken on dates, but this may be the era when Winchester/ Browning switched to hammer forging barrels. The phenomenon of the bore seems like a classic hammer forging problem.
Thanks Karl, I don't think the boys at Capital Sports would be particularly pleased to make an offer on this gun. Unless they planned to sell it as decoration. Thanks for the tip on Redmond. Todd
I have an original 1893 Marlin in .38-55 made in the 1920s. Had a 2 foot group (?) at 50 yards, all keyholed. Slugged the bore, was .381. Supposed to be .375. Found out a lot of rifles made in that era had over sized bores. Even the chamber was over sized to accept fire formed brass and .381 bullets. I'm looking at having the barrel relined, as it is in otherwise very good condition and would like to keep it as original as possible and not have to buy a custom mold and fire form brass for a lever gun. On the back burner for the time being.
.375 bores came much later.
much tighter tolerances @@user-ye4fm7lh4v
Is it possible someone was trying to make wildcat loads for it & potentially expanded the barrel with high pressure loads?
Some rifles are just not worth the fight. Its fun to figure out a rifle and loads but some rifles are just duds
I think you can spend a lot of money on this rifle and maybe it will shoot or sell it and get a new one maybe a Italian. I had the same problems with a 6mm Remington and it was a good day when i sold it
I think you're right. Todd
I suspect the Miroku-made Winchesters are better quality than whatever was coming out of the US factory. Miroku isn't exactly screwing up the Browning brand, Weatherby Vanguards, or the Howa rifles.
If it was I would try a custom bullet mould with a gas check. You obviously reload and think it would be your most cost effective way to solve your problem.
Hard cast gas check bullets over smokeless. Haven’t loaded for 38-55 but possibly might not need gas checks if the smokeless loads are reasonable
The only thing I can think of is a custom barrel perhaps.
Can you get the barrel relined like with old worn out rifles?
The bullet needs to fill the barrel at the breech to form a gas seal, or the accuracy will suffer. You need to start with a bullet that seals the bore. If it was me and the gun didn't shoot to suit me, Before I had the barrel rlined or replaced I would start hand lapping the bore so the muzzle was still the smallest diameter, with the bore getting larger as it neared the chamber in as even a manner as possible. By that I mean no spots where the bore gets tighter as the lap is moving from the muzzle toward the breech. It might end up only shooting lead bullets as it sounds like there may be 2 or 3 thousandths or more variance ince in the rifle's bore.
Would paper patching in the measurement of the fired case work?
Could it be possible that your Winchester has some sort of "Progressive Depth Rifling" as used in some Civil War Era rifled muskets to explain your bore slugging findings?
Had a Uberti 94 in 38-55 and it would not shoot accurately. I was going from a 6 to 12 inch spread all over the target.
I have a model 1894 SRC and its slugs at .376 all the way down the barrel, mine was built in 1907 and I shoot .379 home cast bullets like a dream,I own 7 different 38-55s 2 of which are Chief Crazy horse models and they are .375 all the way down and I use jacketed .377 Rem 255gn and they shoot good, my old1894 is my favorite though,Try a larger dia bullet than what you have been using and think of it as a squeeze bore and it may solve your problem,keep an eye open for pressure signs but I think you'll be ok, your lucky the first part of the barrel is lose and the front part is tight.
Do you know the velocity you're getting from the Cast ?
Also, what's the weight and recipe if you don't mind sharing.
@@kevinbagwell4834 All rifles give a little different FPS results but you should reasonably be able to expect 1600+ FPS without having to worry about being hard on the gun, there is still room to push it up a little higher but there is really no need to, I cast my own bullets and powder coat them and gas check the base so as to never having to worry about barrel leading and accuracy is great.When i run them through the lubrisized its just to seat and crimp the gas check because I want the dia. to be as cast. Wheel weights with a touch of Linotype is a good mix that allows the the cast bullet to bump up a bit and fully fill the rifling'
I would re-barrel. Some of the guys recommended Lilja. He may be the man. He made the barrel on my Dillon TAC 501.
Someone may have already said this but Numrich is selling 26" octagon .38-55 barrels for $182. My gunsmith has installed a couple and I've shot one of them. They're a simple screw in replacement on a '94. I've ordered two and am beginning the replacement on a couple of old .30-30s.
Thanks for the tip. I'll look into Numrich and look for a 26" magazine tube. Thanks again, Todd
I've wanted a .38-55 '94 Winchester for going on fifty years but I've always felt that I would be best served by buying a used '94 in .30-30 and having a professional gunsmith replace the barrel on such a rifle with a quality aftermarket barrel. Life and costs have always gotten in the way of me owning such a rifle, but I wonder if you could solve your accuracy problems with your rifle by simply replacing a poorly rifled barrel with one that is properly rifled even though such a barrel would not have the "proper" markings that "make it a true Winchester barrel".
That's a beautiful rifle brother too bad the accuracy isn't up to snuff. I have a Winchester Golden Spike Commemorative made in 1969 which is chambered in 30-30 and it is a tack driver so at least some of the Commemorative rifles weren't just wall hangers.
Good to know. Thanks, Todd
Interesting, I had a Winchester M70 in 22-250 manufactured in the late eighties. It shot so bad I had it rebarreled. I had a Lilja 1/10 twist installed and no problem with accuracy afterwards. Winchester produced crap in those days.
enjoy your videos
I just check my Browning 1886 Carbine it is the same diameter the full length of the barrel?
What is the twist rate and how long are the bullet u use. you need a 300 grainer prob