Why Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time is My Favorite Love Story | Extra Punctuation
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- čas přidán 7. 06. 2024
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This week on Extra Punctuation, Yahtzee looks back at Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time and why it's his favorite love story in video games.
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I love this series
My wife watched me play this. By that I mean kept asking me to play it so she can watch the story. We still quote parts of it to each other to this day
There's your romance in videogaming, Yahtzee. :)
@@Kumimono the story of OP and his wife, we can make a video game out of this.
I think a lot of wives do that. 😂😆😊
Most people think time is like a river that flows swift and sure in one direction, but I have seen the face of time and I can tell you they are wrong. Time is an ocean in a storm. You may wonder who I am and why I say this; sit down and I will tell you a tale like none that you have ever heard!
Totally with you on this one. One of my biggest issues with games, and honestly all multimedia, is that they treat a romantic relationship as an end goal to be achieved as opposed to the start of two people really learning one another on a deeper level. And it's funny because IMO you can tell way more interesting stories with a couple going through ups & downs than the tired old "will they, won't they" trope we've seen 1000 times.
But the problem is that actually having the couple being together and navigating the ups and downs of a relationship is harder to write, and most media just can’t be bothered to put in the extra work.
After the romantic relationship is established at least from the stuff I read/played it becomes even more tropey with convoluted reasons for them to almost break up and then still holding on etc. Imo it also becomes kinda dull cause there's nothing to root for after the "will they won't they" arc
I think the reason for that is actually very simple: the will-they-won't-they actually has an end-point. It's something that can be built up to, and then its resolution can serve as a climax. On the other hand, an ongoing relationship doesn't really have an end-point, and while there can be various ups and downs for drama, it doesn't have the same kind of cathartic resolution as a budding romance does, only a return to the status quo, which is inherently less compelling.
In other words, the will-they-won't-they became a formula the same way the hero's journey had; it has a defined beginning, middle, and end, a cathartic resolution, and it's universally applicable across cultures.
@@Horvath_Gabor I can think of a number of potential endpoints that can be built up to for a story about an ongoing relationship: proposal, wedding, first kid, etc. Relationships evolve, and different stages of that evolution each provide something that can be built up to and serve as a climax.
@@BLZ231 True, and on top of that, there's also practical problems. Video games are inherently limited by the fact they are there first and forst most to deliver a game which features gameplay involving a player who is there to play rather than just watch a CG movie. This means that standard tried and true game play structures necessitate writers write dialogue in a way that's very utilitarian and efficient, which is ill-suited to something complex as exploring what happens with say, the effort of keeping the passion kindled in a long relationship or dealing with compromises in beliefs or lifestyle.
Hence, taking the easy way out (of the tried and true will they/won't they) becomes a utilitarian necessity as much as it is just lazyness.
I cant help but be amused by the final joke about Warrior Within being edgy with a MCR reference, and then the episode ends with the usual musical sting that sounds exactly *like* it came from the warrior within soundtrack.
15 year old me really loved that Godsmack had a few songs in WW. That bit where you're first dropped into a fight section and the opening guitar to "I Stand Alone" starts up was really fucking hype back in 2004
@@tmtmtlsmlabsolutely kino
Yeah. It shows Yatzee's complete lack of self awerness. The fact that he tried paint Warrior Within as something even remotly similiar or inspired by MCR in itself is really stupid seeing how WW was mainly inpired by old Death Metal aesthetic and was created before MCR even became famus at all
@@hypertv7232 Ehhh does it? I think you're missing the point, that it all rolls into that early-mid 2000's trend of making everything broody, angsty and oh-so serious. Even if you had a point "self awareness" wouldn't be the issue.
@@tyclips4155 I think you are the one missing the point. My point is that Yatzee is a boomer and therefore puts things into wrong category yet thinks that he's smart. MCR music and Emo culture as whole were centered around nihilism, sadness, and self-loathing. WW on the other hand is centered around themes that old Metal music was all about. Themes of changing one's destiny, fighting against all adds, dominating everything around you, etc, etc. According to his logic both 80s, and 90s were way more emo then 2000s
Romance seems like something that is simultaneously very hard to get right, while the bar for romance is extremely low for people that are looking for it specifically.
The same can be said of friendship in many respects.
as someone who's religiously listened to Let's Drown Out for the last 15 years, it's always intriguing to see topics discussed in that series being brought to Extra Punctuation
That's a name I haven't heard in a long time! Time to rewatch his playthrough of his own Trilby series
@@kibbleofdoom - It's all about Rob Blanc in my house
There are dozens of us!
I miss let's drown out
I want my Gabe back ):
Man I miss Let's Drown Out :/ I wish they would bring it back sometime
I’m really glad you mentioned this. I remember as a kid how much the original PoP made me feel nostalgic and heavy when it ended, and this is why. It had characters that I finally cared about more than “they punch good”
That ending theme song is still in my library. Listen to it from time to time (lol) cause let's be real, it's a banger
@@ethicalcheeze1407 "Niiiights. I sleep and dream of youuuuu. Only to awake, in my empty rooooommmmm"
I _think_ there was romance in Warrior Within, if the Dahaka's feverish obsession with merging your body mass with its own counts.
....it does.
The Sly Cooper Trilogy is a genuinely good example of video game romance done right, Sly and Carmelita actually do hit all of yahztee’s criteria, despite nothing about the game’s presentation giving the impression that there’s genuinely compelling stuff running through the game’s writing.
This and Witcher 3 for sure
Sly Cooper is a good example of MOST things done right. Those games are wildly underrated.
@@ZachGatesHere Yeah. Given how much Yahtzee likes thievery and heists, I think he'd dig the Sly series. Though he's very particular about writing and humour, and that's harder to gague.
Sly cooper definitely deserves a cartoon
it's one of the best yeah.
What I think is funny is that Warcraft tries to have tons of romance but literally all of them fall flat because they're romance always boils down to "they were standing near each other during that one patch" or "they appeared in the same novel".
the problem is that warcraft (at least the mmo) is a horrid blend of bad writing, fanservice and convuluted plots. after wc3 (the rts, back when the story was decent) i halfway expected a romance between Thrall and Jaina. But of course, Blizzard loves the status quo of racial warfare so all of that was thrown out the window.
Eh, Jaina and Arthas' relationship was good enough. The others are kinda ass.
@@boarfaceswinejaw4516 Jaina and Thrall definitely had something going on by the end of it all and it’s very unfortunate Blizzard let that drop. Theramore as a neutral party to both sides would’ve been a much better idea
I think it's even funnier that all of Blizzard's writing about (World of) Warcraft's lore only makes anything presented worse. I mean, at one point, they made a book that's just straight up "how the Horde came to exist" -> which immediately makes any and all arguments for "Alliance vs Horde" to have just one actual correct answer by any length of any logic ever.
I'd just straight up type it here but... well, spoilers and some people prefer to think that there is an earnest debate to be had (there isn't) and don't want their little fantasy world to be ruined.
@@Cegorahsprankcaller
Everyone was more or less Neutral, the whole "horde vs alliance" shit is monstrously contrived. i just wish the after wc3 period was more about exploration of racial relationships, rather than just bog-standard fantasy warfare.
The descent into the baths is still one of my favorite scenes and bits of dialogue in gaming ever. As you climb down and perform what could be a deadly fall if one were to make a mistake, the Prince's mind is completely somewhere else, thinking about Farah and complaining about everything he finds annoying in her, eventually talking himself into realizing and accepting he's actually in love with her. That bit does so much character development with a monologue and some platforming gameplay. So good!
The best gaming romance is my Yahtzee/Sonic fanfic.
"romance happening cause they were near each other" is my whole dating profile strategy
As a person living in Casablanca who loves Prince of Persia, the first 23 seconds and thumbnail of this vid really threw me for a loop
Early 00s culture was either gritty or overly salacious with little in between. I think The Prince probably found a time machine to the future, picked up some Marilyn Manson CDs and some black hair dye, then travelled back to the past. My Chemical Romance weren't widely known in 2004 in my perspective, so Manson seems like the greater inspirer for the emo Warrior Within look.
Just going to um actually you here, it was Godsmack that did the music for Warrior Within. Remember Godsmack? No?
I guess I Stand Alone.
Quote: "for the emo Warrior Within *look*."
Neither Yahtzee nor JDINCINERATOR claimed My Chemical Romance had anything to do with the music of the game.
But yeah, I 'member Godsmack in Warrior Within, particularly that trailer/music video of I Stand Alone over mostly combat footage.
Got me quite excited for the game, as it clearly showed that they fixed the combat and integrated it much better with the parkour mechanics.
Huh? 2004 was the year My Chem broke through to the mainstream, that was when Helena and I'm Not Okay dropped. Not everything started with The Black Parade
@@guitarhero01234 yep, that's when I remember emo having its moment in the mainstream which MCR was clearly the standout in terms of success and aesthetics. Industrial music, which Manson is associated with was already out of the limelight by 04.
@@guitarhero01234 My perspective is that I didn't start hearing about MCR until The Black Parade. I'm not an MCR fan, so my take is The Black Parade (at least for me) made MCR big.
There is always time for more Sands of Time praise. It was an absolutely great game!
The writing was top notch, but the fighting ? With 3 enemy types (or was it 4) over and over and over again ? That fricking elevator, oh man....
I fell like this is why the favorite romance partners in ME 2 are the two people that weren't love interests in ME 1 but were squad members.
The romance between Mona and Plague Knight in Shovel Knight is completely underrated and the ending of them dancing together is one of my favourite videogame moments ever.
Yeah, that is a good one. I'm not a fan of the misunderstandings and false assumptions that plague (pun not intended) the first two acts of the story, but their romance is overall very sweet and the ending with the two of them dancing together is very fun.
Plus, I love that, when Plague Knight realizes he doesn't need the ultimate potion to woo Mona, rather than just toss the potion aside like most protagonists would, he instead uses it to blow up the Enchantress' Tower. That's just hilarious and very in-character for Plague Knight and Mona.
I like how Yahtzee doesn't mention forgotten sands like at all :D. Treatment it properly deserved.
It's truly forgotten ;-)
Is it that bad? I played sands of time, but warrior within and two thrones are still on my pile of shame. Wanted to include forgotten sands too
@@Szczaqu Nah, it's a perfectly fine game. Just kind of unremarkable while unnecessarily adding convoluted story to the SoT trilogy. It has some fun mechanics, and I think some pretty great level design near the end as well.
@@TheAphexTim Most hilarious is how every port of Forgotten Sands to each console was a totally different game. Licensed games that were released to capitalize a movie release (like here with the POP movie) did that a lot. Screw artistic preservation, we need profit ASAP.
@@buntado6 Was the Wii version any better?
The only game I’ve played where the romance feels real-ish is in Metro Exodus, with Ana.
It is shown through what they do with each other/in each others company, not always just what they say to each other.
The funny part is that in the books, Artyom and Anna have a failing marriage.
The flip side of this is that the beginning of this romance in Last Light basically follows the 'two people in the same area at the end' formula. Though it also might have just been her thinking she was going to die and wanting to feel alive, and having perhaps not love but respect for Artyom.
I found the romance in Prince of Persia (2008) also very enjoyable and rather endearing. Though admittedly, the characters didn't really grow nor overcome their flaws... But the complication part (that is, the whole ending) was excellent!
The PoP trilogy is the most nostalgic video game series from my childhood, but it doesn't seem to be discussed or remembered as widely as a lot of other series from the time. Which is a shame because I think it deserves to be one of those franchises that's highly regarded/discussed for the innovations it made. Especially Sands of Time. So it's always great to see retrospective videos like this.
It was hugely influential, but it's probably not talked about that much because what it did uniquely was so widely copied. At the time it stood out as a big budget cinematic platformer. Lots of bespoke animations, arkham asylum/spider-man like animation locked combat, banter with npc partner. These days it's rarer to find a AAA game that's _not_ cinematic in that sorta way you know.
The only thing people haven't copied that much is the actual platforming, they just went for characters climbing up flat walls instead lol.
It's wild, because without Prince of Persia the Sands of Time I think it's pretty certain that Assassin's Creed wouldn't exist at all
I tend to agree with Yahtzee's idea that video game don't do Romance, but I don't think it stops there. I would argue that most media in general don't do Romance but instead focus their attention on the Love Stories.
Take the mindset that media is meant to be primarily escapism for a moment. A story about falling in love and the grand sweeping emotions associated within is much more appealing than a story where the falling in love and grand emotions has already happened and now all that remains is the maintenance of the relationship. It's what gets our imaginations firing, picturing ourselves, or someone else perhaps, in such a scenario. Contrast to (relative) mundanity of actually maintaining a relationship. It's something that a lot of us deal with every day, and unless we deliberately choose to engage with media that simulates real life, it's much easier to gravitate towards what is more enthralling.
I would say characters being in a relationship sounds a lot more interesting than the lead up to it. It's far more than just "maintenance", it's all the complex details of two people navigating their lives being intertwined while facing the ways things change. There's a lot that can be done with that.
@@keltzar1 You _can_ theoretically do a lot with that, but I wouldn't call Homer and Marge or whatever a whirlwind romance of excitement. Stuff usually gets mundane, I think that's the whole reason a lot of comedy leads are actual couples. It's a better fit for Shrek and Fiona than it is for a straight up romantic story.
@@Kriss_ch. i said even mundane fluff can be entertaining to watch.
many people who read manga or watch anime love watching two people just being cute with each other, and any conflict if not forced can add more to the fluffiness of the situation.
also you can have the start of the relationship and maintenance in the same medium rather than start with one or the other, that's how the romance in this video between the prince and farah is.
My favorite romance is The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt method. There are two, well-established characters with backstory, that Geralt can romance. The player is given the choice and chance to romance either one of them, splitting the player base on which one is his true love, and the option to try and fail to romance them both or to decline either of their affections is there. I love a game that lets opt out.
Geralt and Yennefer especially have some of the best chemistry I've ever seen in a video game
I literally just finished replaying The Sands of Time before I saw this come up.
As far as fixed romance narratives in games, my favourite would have to be Ike and Elincia from Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance. He's a socially awkward and extremely blunt rookie mercenary and she's an overly-courteous fallen princess, but what's particularly interesting is that their character arcs parallel each other and they grow together through their support for one another:
Both of them suddenly lose their parents to the war and are thrust into leadership positions they were not ready for: Ike having to take over his dad's mercenary company, and Elincia having to lead despite never having been the heir to the throne. They are both supportive of one another and help each other grow, and they have extremely good chemistry: one of my favourite moments in the game occurs when Elincia is pleading with a neighbouring empire for aid, the empress essentially belittles Elincia's situation for her own amusement, and Ike furiously stands up for Elincia and demands that the empress, who could easily have Ike executed for raising his voice at her, apologize to Elincia, with Elincia herself noticing that that's the first time Ike has referred to her as "Elincia", and not "Princess". Their whole dynamic is extremely heartwarming and well-written.
Imagine my surprise when I found out that the romance is exclusive to the North American localization of Path of Radiance: in the original Japanese version, there is no romance and they have about the same chemistry as two planks of wood, and then the sequel, Radiant Dawn, has Elincia marry her foster-brother completely out of nowhere.
This is funnily enough the first time I've ever read anyone take a serious crack at analysing Ike's chemistry with a woman rather than Soren
@@Prnnce That doesn't surprise me (I'm honestly more surprised to find another commenter that has _played_ Path of Radiance). I kind-of understand why Ike and Soren is a popular ship since their friendship is very well-written, but there's nothing in any version of either game suggesting that Ike and Soren's bond is a _romantic_ bond.
I think the writers were deliberately going for Ike not explicitly ending up with anyone, and then the writers for the North American localization of Path of Radiance decided to add an honestly really good explicit romance between Ike and Elincia only to have to drop it for multiple reasons when localizing Radiant Dawn.
On the non-fixed romance in FE: I didn't like how in Awakening, due to time travel shenanigans, the kid characters show up immediately when two characters S rank. Before I realized that, I tried to build support between many units and see who had the nicest interactions and best chemistry. After I realized it, I felt pressured to unlock all content ASAP, so I just rushed everyone into S rank with whomever. I haven't played any FE games where child characters show up after a time skip, but I feel that may be a better way.
@@bificommander7472 I think Genealogy of the Holy War is all about that.
@@Aska2468 Yeah, I believe so. May try to find a way to play that sometime.
Ok, but I actually have a huge soft spot for Warrior Within. I was 18 or 19 when I played it, I was incredibly angsty, I was into nu metal, and I had just left a repressive religious upbringing.
Also... I thought the chase sequences with the Dahaka were fun, the MetroidVania puzzle mechanics were great, and unlocking the water sword and the secret final ending was pretty cool.
... But the two women in the game were comically endowed, scantily dressed, and had no other discernible traits.
Pretty much.
I still love the game, but I'm very much not blind to it being a product of its time, with all the faults that implies.
Screw the haters, Warrior Within is balls to the wall amazing. It's my favourite in the series - Metal, scantily clad babes and the most badass Prince in gaming.
Warrior within is my favorite game of the pop trilogy. I loved the aesthetic, the berserk-style “cursed to die but refusing to do so” idea, the riff to I stand alone that played as the dahaka chased you, the improved combat, the mystical time travel mechanics. I love it so much and no matter how many ppl I watch/hear shit on it changes my mind in the slightest.
It's wild how I could write exactly what you said, word-for-word. I know I'm not supposed to like WW, but it really is my favorite PoP game... secretly. lol Also, happy you got out and found yourself.
@@electricdoor Don't be ashamed for loving WW. It is the best in terms of gameplay and style. Even if characters are not so well written as in first game, it's still a damn good game after all.
If people are allowed to love RE4 for it cheesy dialogues and over the top action, so do we!
Bioware romances are easy to poke fun at, and a lot of them have fallen under the joke about how everyone is leaping to have sex with you after three or four conversations. But I'll die on the hill that Shepard and Tali's romance was worth writing home about.
I like how there is no romance between them in the first game, allowing an actual friendship to form first before anything goes further. And I like how there's this overhanging question regarding whether it's even safe for her to pursue a physical relationship due to her weak immune system and whether it's selfish to seek out that moment of connection during such a critical time in their lives. It's played alongside how her usual mindset is this almost self destructive loyalty to her people, and how Quarians are expected to live and die for the sake of the collective due to their harsh living conditions rather than seeking out individual happiness. Shepard himself isn't exactly a beacon of charisma by comparison, but I still think there's enough to work with regarding his potential doubts about the future that he isn't a totally blank slate. (well, some of the time anyway)
The sillyness of Bioware romances is the price they have to pay for giving player actual choice of whom to snog.
But yeah, Tali and Vetra are the best.
I thought Dragon Age Inquisition did a pretty good job of it (though not without flaws). It avoids feeling overly "harem-y" because most of the side characters also have good non-romantic relationship story arcs, with Blackwall, Iron Bull, and Solas being standouts for me. So it never felt like "this character exists as a love interest."
@@ChristophelusPulps did you know that if you don't romance Tali or Garrus, they end up together?
Respectfully, I'd disagree. Yes, Tali being a platonic friend in ME1 definitely helps the romance feel legit, but the actual romance arc in ME2 boils down to "we should be more than friends." - > "I don't think it'd work out becauseof biological compatibility issues." -> "JK i got them figured out off screen." Like, she's a great character, but the entire arc of the actual romance is JUST the immune system issue and literally nothing else.
I think the actual ones that fit criteria are Thane->Femshep and Jack->Maleshape. Both follow similar arcs of those two characters expressing a sense of loneliness for fascinatingly contrasting reasons to one another. Jack's arc in particular feels real in large part because it presents the option of the casual hookup and forces you the player to make the choice to pursue an explicitly emotional relationship, and its aparent if you explore further the offer of casual sex is yet another way Jack is trying to keep emotional distance from Shep.
I'd also add a lot of the romance options, including Tali, have fantastic romance content in the Citadel DLC, in large part because of its emphasis on exploring the characters outside of the apocalypitic/dangeorus scenarios of the rest of the trilogy.
@@chumpy5620 That's fair. I can see why the immunodeficiency thing could feel glossed over in how they actually resolved it. Mordin just throws some meds your way and there doesn't seem to be any lasting issues. I guess in that regard the story was more about them simply being willing to take the chance on each other more than anything. I think it would have been interesting if ME2 actually did end without them becoming physically intimate, while they're still seeking other safer ways to consummate their relationship.
But I still liked how Tali's character arc ultimately panned out, and how Shepard's big (ambiguous) sacrifice ties into this final wish to finally give Tali a home, only for her to tell him in their possibly final moments together that she had already found one.
That all said, Jack's story had a sweet payoff as well, and I respect that they didn't give Thane a miracle cure at the last second. just the resolve to appreciate what time he had left. (And man the Citadel DLC was a great sendoff to the characters despite all the other controversies about ME3's ending. Makes me sad that we never got to see more Mass Effect games having fun with the same setting while dealing with slightly less apocalyptical stakes.)
Trails in the Sky have my favorite romance plot with its main characters: Estelle and Joshua. They both are great characters on their own, and they are both flawed in a way that each one complements the other: Estelle is energetic and warm, but she's also naive and not really sharp. Meanwhile, Joshua is highly competent and intelligent at the cost of being somewhat cold and uncaring.
Their chemistry revolves around them going from being mere childhood friends to Joshua finally being able to open up about his past and both deciding to keep moving forward, and the romance is integral to the plot to such degree that the event that starts the second game is a pivotal point on the relationship.
And they're step-siblings for that sweet pornhub touch :P
(and yes, I'm being facetious, I know the game doesn't lean into or really highlight that fact)
100% agree. Trails in the sky is one of the best romances in video games, and if Yahtzee could get past how slow the games are I think he’d love them for the writing and immersive world.
Also what I instantly thought of when he was listing things.
Boy did they fuck it up badly in cold steel though.
@@BagazZ123 they went the persons route in cold steel which is like… a choice. Not one I’d prefer but not an objectively bad one. Tbh if you just follow the “intended” romance options though the romance actually works pretty decently. Rean and Alisa and Lloyd and Elie have legitimately decent chemistry and are pretty cute together, it’s just the fact that everybody else also wants them that makes it less good. But that was already kind of a thing in sky anyway. Joshua had basically every girl his age wanting to bone him (and Olivier) and by the end of sky Estelle’s starting to build a little harem with Kevin also simping after her (and, eventually, also Olivier). So like… it’s something I saw coming, but I’m definitely still hoping the future series ditch the “choose your own waifu” option and give us back canon romances
holy, your criteria for the perfect romance is literally the entire plot for trails in the sky first chapter
you will LOVE this game if you tried it
So the problem I think Yathz has with Persona romance is that the protag is a blank slate and it's not integral to the plot(you can very well not romance anyone and it's the same story).
Because I honestly think the girls are all quite well fleshed out with their ups-and-downs and character arcs.
Another funny thing about Persona is that the only girls you cannot romance end up dying, almost as if the game didn't want to make you jealous one of your male friends could get a girl you couldn't.
The main issue with persona games, even the good ones, is that whatever character arc happens in the social links, stays there. You have Yosuke slowly but surely coming to terms with saki's death, in the original script he even outright says he loves the protag...then you have him going for low hanging jokes like "haha ur gey" to Kanji even into the late game
The problem with romance in games like Persona and Trails of Cold Steel is that because the game has to be open to any of the romances, than none of them can be actually meaningful or contribute anything to the plot or either character. It's there for audience satisfaction and to check a box on a list. It's especially bad in Trails because unlike Persona, the series is about one overarching plot, meaning that even if you do commit to one of the romances your choice gets reset in between games. And it's especially tragic in Cold Steel because Trails in the Sky has the best romance I've seen in a video game, so clearly the writers know how to make one, they just didn't for whatever reason.
I almost want to argue that some romances in Mass Effect meet at least the first point Yahtz makes. I guess the problem there is that BioWare wasn't able to write a good enough romance in the middle of also writing a story where they can keep Shepard as a blank slate, AND some player choice
@@OperatorError0919 Man I just got through trails in the sky SC and it was amazing. Do they actually drop that style and go for the Persona approach to romance??? Meh.
What a well researched video! Thank you for this great perspective, resonated well with me
Couldn’t agree more. That’s why I like games where the main characters are married. It’s just something you se very little of. We’ve been seeing more of it lately. Maybe it’s a sign of the medium maturing.
For the record, the writer for Prince of Persia: Sands of Time was Jordan Mechner, who was also created and designed the original 1989 Prince of Persia.
He was also the screenwriter on the 2010 Prince of Persia movie, which wasn't exactly received well at the time, if I recall.
well, he wrote the first draft. according to wikipedia the screenwriters are 3 other people, jordan is just credited under executive producer and "story by"
I know he was dunking on uncharted for it's standard action movie love subplot. But I really enjoy the love story in the last uncharted game. Rarely do you get a love story about a relationship that is already established. I thought they did a really good job making the struggles of being in a marriage central to the plot.
i`ll live and die for Warrior Within's edgyness
Best love story is that of The Witcher. It has every element mentioned plus lots more, including a song, antagonists (Yennefer or Triss), closure (Blood and Wine) and of course a 🦄
Thanks Matt! Great edit!
Wow! Yahtzee, you make a good point of Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time being a romance story. You also remind me of when I watch the making of the game on "How It's Made". And the words from the Prince: "Just call me... Kakolookiyam." Also, you made Prince of Persia: Warrior Within a pretty good thing in the end, when all it brings is heavy metal music... especially Godsmack! XD Nice one!
I'd argue all three games have a decent explanation on various forms of love. Sands Of Time has youthful idealised love. Warrior Within has lust (the outfits of the two ladies and the ending cinematic of the true ending sums that up) and Two Thrones has a rekindling/maturity thing going on. Heck Forgotten Sands has brotherly love and what you'd do for a sibling to help them
7:18 I like how I started humming + air guitaring I'm Not Okay BEFORE 7:20 🤣
Another time travel game/anime steins gate perfects. This to a masterpiece level
I was curious what my favorite game romance was, but looking back, a lot of games I play are RPG's where you choose your partner, which is more of a favorite waifu/husbando than an actual romance.
So I guess my favorite actual romance is Titus and Yuna from FFX. Sure, they get together pretty easy, but then we get some time with them in love, and the tragedy that one of them will die no matter how they decide to end things adds an interesting dramatic wrinkle.
Same; most games I've played either have no romance/implied romance at most, or are RPGs where the player chooses the player character's partner. For me, my favourite actual video game romance would have to be either Link and Zelda in The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks, or Ike and Elincia from Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance.
Seconded. Even better, it's got a real point in the overall goal of the plot- making Yuna take a hard look at everything she's sacrificing.
In my case, my favorite romance from a videogame would be the one between the protagonists of trails in the sky (FC and SC).
It really surprised me how it went from "tolerable cliché anime romance" to "compeling and beutiful romance", and ended up one of My favorite parts of the games.
@@estanislaojosegadea8253 Right. Estelle and Joshua. How could I forget them?! Those two really went places with their relationship, issues and relevance to the story (the pay off at the end of SC and the epilogue to their tale split across Sky 3rd and Zero... chef's kiss, especially the resolution in Zero).
Then there's Shion Uzuki and Allen Ridgeley from the Xenosaga trilogy. It's very well woven throughout the story, and the pay off, as Allen wins by "being defeated" had me clapping.
Also from Xeno universe, Fei and Elly. That's some seriously rocky relationship, with some good ups and downs.
And of course, Zidane and Garnet from Final Fantasy IX. What a dynamic relationship they have. Simply beautiful.
Oh I agree. Yuna trying to resist falling in love because she must sacrifice herself. Tidus being an oblivious idiot who makes it harder for her by not realizing she has to sacrifice herself. Then once he finds out, they give in to romance and he strives to save her. And then all of that being turned on it's head when he discovers he has to sacrifice himself to bring permanent peace and save Yuna.
I originally hated the ending because I wanted a happily ever after for them. But in hindsight, the tragic ending makes it that much better. Underrated romance story in my opinion.
In Warrior Within's defense, if a giant embodiment of instant DEATH were chasing after me for a few years, I'd be a brooding and miserable sack of shit, too.
Haha, yep! 🙂 I was sad to see the Prince in such a state, but it made narrative sense.
Doesn't mean it didn't completely lack the charm and fun of the first (or even the third), though.
Prince of Persia is one of my favorite franchises. My favorite was Warrior Within. Yes, I know it's edgy but I loved it.
Have you played Maquette?
It's got a relationship that checks all your boxes!
Haven immediately comes to mind when I try to think of really good romance in a game. Really enjoyed that one.
I would say the Witcher 3 romances are very well done. Especially the Geralt and Yennefer romance. Both are very flawed characters, both have a long history before the events of the game, they both have great chemistry and are very well written. The two characters have known each other so long that they are way past the honeymoon phase and are deep into learning how to deal with each other and their flaws stage.
Yeah, this was my immediate thought as well. Like, sure, you can go and bang Triss, but it'll make you feel damn bad about it haha.
It technically fails your criteria (specifically 3, since it's technically totally optional), but I think Hades has my favorite approach to romance. The writing in general in that game is pretty top-notch, but the romance element in particular takes its time and really well develops, and literally every option you can take is in some way satisfying, particularly the (MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THOSE NOT IN THE KNOW) polyamory.
I mean, it doesn’t really fail the criteria imo. It’s not 5 girls all equally able to fall for the silent protagonist, it’s 2-3 romance subplots involving complex relationships between equally complex characters, you can see why those characters would be attracted to Zagreus, and there’s good reasons for zag to either reject or accept them
@@mousefire777 I was referring specifically to his third criterion, i.e. "the romance has to be integral to the plot." You can beat the main story of Hades without progressing any of the relationships with Meg, Than, or (if we want to count her) Dusa and they technically require you to go out of your way to talk to them and give them all Nectar and Ambrosia to advance, so strictly speaking it fails in that sense (at least going off Yahtz's third criterion, personally I wouldn't dock points).
Yeah no the polyamory alone should push it out of that category, since Meg and Than have their own relationship outside of Zag's bedroom and the dialogue for all three changes based on who else you've already shot your shot with.
@@Romalac Gotcha, my b
Romance in that game is grinding a currency and then picking an option if you want a romance or friendship with X character. It's pretty far from what Yahtzee is asking for.
The Bastila/Carth romances from the 1st Kotor have a bit more leg to them than the subsequent bioware games because they are both flawed, but the redemptive arc/blank slate does hurt them. Still, for bioware, they feel genuine
Haven was a great love story. The two characters had such a believable chemistry
I remember being surprisingly impressed by the love triangle between Spiderman, Mary Jane, and the cat lady in the Spiderman game just because of how rare it is to see any kind of romance in games that has any sort of chemistry or history or real characters.
I really appreciate that you touch upon the sequels. They're not awful but just couldn't hit the same strides and left us disappointed. Everything is wrapped in a neat bow but they stumble upon themselves. The first one just had the perfect vibe of old school game and Arabian Knights.
I like the Godsmack Prince of Persia but more so ironically and Two Thrones felt like a we have Prince at home vibe. Not terrible but something is missing.
Nice, I loved this game and the Prince of Persia series were my first ever games to own of anything (POP1 and POP2). After many years of denying and shying away from any romance media for most of my life I finally feel comfortable enough to embrace that side of things as I’ve gotten older, and I bloody love it, as long as it’s not cliché and is meaningful, of course. Probably why I’ve started listening and becoming a fan of TWICE.
I always have to defend this game's combat, since so many people rag on it. Freezing enemies, then leaping over them and slicing them in half never got old.
I wonder if I still have Sands of Time lying around somewhere. The combat music was such a banger that it started playing in my head even after probably 15 years +
Unrelated to the video but does Yahtzee have any more books in the works?
I can't get enough of his Audiobooks :D
Surprisingly, I think Final Fantasy X makes this mark! The two characters - Tidus and Yuna - are distinct, they have chemistry that builds, the romance is sort of integral, and their companionship is definitely complicated.
Definitely the best romance in Final Fantasy. I think IX has a decent one, though maybe Garnet could use a few more character flaws to make her less of a Disney princess. I'm not a fan of Rinoa and Squall though, which is a shame because their romance was supposed to be the core of FFVIII.
nice work
While it fails to meet all of Yahtzee's criteria as laid out in this video, by favorite romance (if you can call it that) in a video game is between Link and Midna in the Legend of Zelda Twilight Princess. While Link himself is relatively flat due to being a silent protagonist (though he is expressive and definitely has his own character), but Midna has a fantastic character arc and while nothing explicit comes out between the two of them, the game uses a lot of implicit cues both in how Midna speaks to Link and how they visually emote at one another to really sell the bond they grow to share by the game's end.
in the end of the manga she kisses him before breaking the twilight mirror.
@@azzzanadra based Midna wins the Linkbowl for the first time since Zelda did in 1987 bless her so much!
@@CappnRob link and zelda are my go to pair for most zelda games, but twilight princess is the exception.
the best link and zelda are the ones in spirit tracks and what little is implied in breath of the wild.
I do wonder what Yahtzee thinks of Transistor's romance.
Neither Red nor her nameless protege have all that much character to speak of, they don't really go through much character growth, and it's hard to describe the sword fawning over her while she's physically unable to respond for the majority of the game as "chemistry".
@@fieldrequired283 Chemistry isn't necessarily just dialogue, I haven't played the game yet myself but I do know the combat is based around the sword and the lady working together and Supergiant are typically quite focused on ludonarrative synchronicity.
@@goldenhorde6944
She uses the sword as a weapon. The sword is willing, but it doesn't really have much agency in the matter. Red's use of the sword also isn't very expressive in a character sense.
It's worth noting that I really liked Transistor. It had interesting combat and tactical/strategic choices, and the world was fascinating to inhabit and catch glimpses at through all the little text snippets, but the romance between Red and the voice in the Transistor was not a highlight for me.
Don't know why Yahtzee isn't into Warrior Within. He's right about the angsty teen stuff, but I remember the combat and story (especially the antagonist) being waaay better than SoT and Two Thrones.
The game had a magical Arabian nights presentation which really elevated the story I hope they don’t fuck up the remake.
What even happened to the remake? I hear nothing about it anymore. Plus I didn't like the cover art, doesn't have the edginess the original had.
This has been the most interesting Zero / Extra Punctuation that I have ever watched
I actually have quite the soft spot for the noir take on romance in Max Payne 2. Felt somehow genuine. More lust than love, but real and in the moment
I've replayed Sands Of Time at least once every two years since its release. With the exception of some aspects of the visuals, it still feels timeless (pun intended), largely thanks to the strong gameplay, great presentation, and wonderful writing.
This game turns twenty this year, so it's nice to know it still holds up 😊
Since we're on the topic, the Prince of Persia (2008) romance deserves a mention. I believe it has all the criteria you mentioned, and an interesting ending as well.
Would be interesting to see Yahtzee touch here on why he liked the characters in It Takes Two or Haven, which are certainly less epic than Sands of Time, but do portray at least characters in a mature relationship.
If I recall correctly I’m pretty sure he openly despised the characters in it takes two
I'd put It Takes Two down as one of the worst love stories in gaming. It delights in spending most of the game showing just how toxic these two are to each other, and then shoves in a Hallmark ending without doing any of the work to justify it. I actively supported them divorcing by the end of it
@@Tomwithnonumbers It really thinks like there was a section where they bond and actually work on their relationship that got cut...
If the relationship in It Takes Two is enough to qualify as a "mature relationship" I think I'm enough to qualify as a sock.
I think Yahtzee said in some video that he liked Haven for the characters.
I clicked on this video so fast!
I've always felt the same way about Sands of Time. The mindfuck of having, as you said, possibly the most erotic scene in video game history immediately followed by a huge betrayal absolutely gutted my 12 year old mind. The chemistry between Farah and the Prince was top notch. They actually played off of each other and had really great banter. Plus the voice acting was top notch.
I never played Warrior Within because I was so pissed off about the direction they took the game's tone in. So many people praised Sands of Time for it not being an edge-fest at a time where almost every triple A game was. It truly baffled me that they then decided to make the Prince the kind of dude who would listen to Trapt.
I played Two Thrones and enjoyed it but, yeah Farah and the Prince had practically no chemistry in it. The only time they had any was when they were arguing about pomegranates, lol. I really didn't like Farah's voice actress in Two Thrones. She sounded nothing like the original, spoke in a different accent, and never sounded playful. She would have held Two Thrones back, even if the game were to have better writing.
Haven is the only other game that comes to mind that meets these criteria. It's somewhat lacking in other areas but the central romance is excellent.
I feel like the romances in The Witcher 3 would be interesting to discuss here. Depending on what choices you make and how you interpret the dialogue, the game both overcomes and blatantly falls for all the problems addressed in this video.
Gosh, save some romance opinions for the Valentine’s Day Video 😂 Although I love knowing that not only Yahtzee likes a well written romance, but that his favourite is a bittersweet one. The tragic love stories stay with a person much stronger than the happily-ever-after ones.
Recently I played Tales of Arise I I thought the romance element was pretty quite well handled.and of course Geralt and Yen are amazing.
Oh the good memories playing PoP! 😍 😍 I love the prince and Farah's story. In my opinion, this must be one of the few decent movie adaptations of a game. The movie managed to convey their chemistry.
Another great love story in video games is James Raynor and Sarah Kerrigan❤️
The Viconia romance in Baldur's Gate 2 was a Bioware masterclass in complex character writing IMHO and has always been my favorite - especially if your character is a good alignment attempting to romance the evil Drow. It's very easy to fuck up and say the wrong thing to permanently close the loop but the challenge & complexity of Viconia as a drow outcast fending for herself on the surface and innately distrustful of everyone is what makes it enticing. The icing on the cake to echo Yahtzee's point about character development is that by the Throne of Bhaal expansion Viconia can reform her alignment to Neutral - it's not shoehorned at all and makes sense in the context that Viconia was evil because of her culture & drow upbringing but slowly over spending many months with the PC she softens and changes her world outlook.
Hey Yahtzee! Have you played the Demo for Forspoken? I can't believe a major game release actually gave players a demo! I finished it last week and the gameplay was awesome, loved the magic system. It was nice to feel like I got to try a game out for once this decade.
I remember getting sands of time on Yahtzees recommendation and loving it. Then i got to a section about a 3rd of the way in where i had to fight 3 tough enemies at the same time and kept dying.
I still think Super Meat Boy's willingness to throw himself into a meat grinder repetitively to rescue his lover still stands strong
His lover is still a prize to be won and has no personality beyond being a damsel in distress.
@@PlebNC you make a good but unnecessary rebuttal because this person was making a joke.
@@Mirrale I thought he was using a joke to make a point.
@@PlebNC I think this was just a joke joke, but I understand your pov.
I was 10 when i beat this game. And i shamelessly admit she was my first video game crush.
This reminded me of how f*ing good warrior within was, it's one of the "perfect games" out there. Not many were made in the last years, only Sekiro and Doom Eternal comes to mind.
FF VIII is still one of my favourite game love story's, though I'm aware I'm in a minority it still beats allot of modern attempts.
You're not alone!
As much as I begrudge Squall and Rinoa's love taking the limelight, since I do love the world of VIII, I can't deny its pretty well done.
It's Laguna and Raine that really makes me tear up
Same here. There are dozens of us!
If you hadn't written this, I was going to. So, thanks.
Sands of Time was the first game I ever finished. I finish most games I pick up now that I'm older and actually have an attention span, but none of them make me feel the way sands of time did.
Mine's gotta be Zagreus and Megaera from Hades, but revisiting my library indeed made me realise how slim pickings were. Still, very fun and endearing, I love the dynamic of Zagreus trying his best at the house to win back and apologize to Meg, while she's slowing warming back up to him, intercut by mandatory brutal fights to the death. And yes, I must admit I do find Megaera... spiciness quite appealing, but they did a damn good job making Zagreus an excellent and likeable protagonist.
Still, as I said, pickings were slim. And even despite the stellar writing on Hades, my preference in terms of characters will still go to Pyre, their previous game. Check it out, it's 6 hours long and a masterpiece. I also gotta give a shoutout to Night in the Woods, for having what I still think to this day as a pretty good contender for best characters overall I've ever seen in a video game.
Prince of Persia 2008 really made me care for Ellika...
That relationship definitely affected the plot too, given the ending.
Too bad about the Epilogue DLC...
Disney needs to learn something from this video. Or maybe they don't because they managed to get a really compelling romance with Tangled, in which case I have no idea why they stopped trying.
That and Beauty and The Beast I'd argue are the only times Disney really nailed good romance plots.
I think it comes down to focus really.
@@dillonpanarello5242 Eh. I don't like Beauty and the Beast much.
@@LOEKASH Fair enough.
I know most FF fans wouldn’t agree or think of them as a great couple/romance compared the iconic stuff like Cloud and Tifa and so many on but Ive always preferred the subtlety shown with Balthier and Fran’s relationship in XII. Maybe not so much a dynamic or obvious romance but the game does a real good job of setting the tension and easily selling you by the briefest of quotes and interactions that these 2 aren’t just partners in crime. It honestly feels like the most effortless and realistic romance I’ve seen from the franchise.
it's because Tifa is genuinely a completely vapid character. Beyond her design she essentially has no redeeming qualities other than being a romantic power fantasy for the audience that wants to embody the hero-fantasy of Cloud, and nothing drives that home better than her portrayal in Advent Children. Cloud is similarly an entirely blank character but at least he has the excuse of being the semi-self-insert protagonist hero. Meanwhile it just makes Tifa's infatuation with him that much more baffling. As a result there's simply no relationship to be invested in other than the disclaimer we're given of "these 2 people have romantic feelings for each other". Yes, I'm pissing off a bunch of FF purists, yes that is a big part of my motivation.
@@gwen9939 I love FFVII, but I actually completely agree with you. Cloud getting with Tifa is more symbolic of him overcoming his past trauma and understanding who he is, rather than portraying any genuine relationship. Basically, it's all about Cloud -- Tifa is just kind of there. Which is fine -- I don't think the game is trying to tell a love story per se, but I do wish Tifa had a little more going on to make her feel like less of a cardboard cut-out.
@@madwaltz9812 Exactly. VII was never a love story and so it doesn't really attempt to. The outsized preoccupation with the "love triangle" is an entirely fan-created nonsense.
I'd argue FFX is FF's best attempt at telling a love story. It's more Hollywood than subtle, but they're still both fully realized characters and the relationship develops naturally. Certainly better than their first attempt in VIII.
@@cloudkitt I don't mind the idea of FF VIII's love story, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired.
I guess my favorite romance plot in video games would be between Noah and Mio in Xenoblade 3 both with their chemistry being adorable and entertaining while their romance also being central to the plot and themes. Main other examples of romance being done potentially well is in the Fire Emblem games where every unit is their own fleshed out character, but the player has the choice in matchmaker to make unique pairings (not every pairing is a home run of course but there are some surprisingly well written ones).
Another PERFECT example is the romance between Estelle and Joshua from Trails in the shy Trilogy. It starts with both of them being kinda siblings (Joshua was adopted) and thier romance and history not only pushes them to be stronger for each but to take risks and mature to overcome all the flaws that caused them to seperate.
Any details will comepletly spoil the fantastic story so i highly recomend it.
I came here to write the same thing, trails in the sky ticks all of Yahtzee's boxes!
Love should be a dilemma for our heroes. A struggle. Something that cannot be embraced without challenging their journey in some way.
another important thing in a good romance/love story should be the fact that both characters should grow and change together, rather than just one of them changing or vice versa.
im reminded of rpg games where you form a party/adventuring group with people, and everyone has different moral alignments (dragon age as an example), and whilst its all fun and good to have characters with differing beliefs, i dont want to feel like im arguing with a brick wall when i try to explain to the gothic witch that "killing children is wrong".
having played quite a bit of it, i feel like cyberpunk 2077 handled the romances really well. all of the characters available to romance are super fleshed out, and they play off V really well. it's also entirely possible to fuck things up with them in spectacular fashion which i appreciate. the two standouts being (IMO) kerry and judy.
I'm not sure if you would call it a love story, but I thought the relationship between Monkey and Trip in Enslaved was good. You might argue, though, that in this case, it might just be Stockholm syndrome. But there is a difference in how they both treat each other by the end.
I think for me the most memorable romance/love story in a game was in Stories: The Path of Destinies, though I guess partly because it was kind of tragic and heartbreaking a lot of the time.
I absolutely agree to the video. It is one of my all time favourites. But I would also mention the celshading Prince of Persia! The chemistry between the Prince and Elika is very good too. Their relationship evolves during the gameplay and you as the player can decide how much dialogue they will have because you trigger it with a button. This one and Sands of Time are the best PoPs ever made, in my opinion. And honestly, I'm really scared of the SoT remake because I have no trust in Ubisoft these days anymore.
Enslaved: Odyssey to the West did some of this pretty okay, from what I recall from Yahtzee's review
I wish Prince of Persia would come back...
I don't remember the last time Yahtzee mentioned The Escapist in ZP, interesting.
Utawarerumono Mask of Deception and Mask of Truth also has all these elements in the romance between Haku and Kuon.
I would absolutely love to hear his views on the relationship in Darkened Skye and the .....let's say .... Unforeseen and utterly bonkers ending it leads up to.