We Need to Have a Conversation About Your Tone | Extra Punctuation
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- čas přidán 14. 12. 2022
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This week on Extra Punctuation, Yahtzee examines the tonal issues of many current AAA games.
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the image of yahtzee making gordon freeman nodding along with what NPCs are saying is so goddamn adorable, i love it.
Reaction image of the month!
I totally did that too, in basically any first person game with a silent protagonist I'll nod or shake my head and jump for happiness and all kinds of stuff.
I sometimes do that too, although more often in first-person RPGs rather than shooters.
@@ZiggySA The more I've heard about this game over the years, the more I am intrigued by it. That little detail made me get out of my own way and add it to the cart. Thanks ;)
I long ago noticed I do that in any game where it applies. And a goodbye nod on leaving conversations in Bethesda RPGs, and closing things behind me like the vending machines in fallout 4.
3:55 This definitely reminded me of how BioShock Infinite was developed, according to an AI in Games (great channel, btw) video. Like how Elizabeth was programmed to have certain “moods” which pertained to the current level and story beat, which determined her facial expression among other things. And when combat started the current “mood” would shift to a combat state which had the expected anxious appearance. And I think I remember that during development testers found that Elizabeth’s shift from combat “mood” back to a positive one was jarring. So Irrational Games then gave Elizabeth a temporary post-combat state where she wouldn’t return to her previous “mood” until sufficient time had passed.
Sounds like this is what Santa Monica Studio should have done with Kratos, Atreus, and Mimir: a temporary post-combat state where banter cannot resume when the “tone-swing” was too large.
How does this get over peoples head's
@@DavidRamirez-se2ytcuz it requires time and effort that AAA devs don’t have, plus there isn’t much qa testing as of late so this type of stuff slips through occasionally.
My personal favourite example is in Metal Gear Rising when you go after World Marshall and meet Monsoon.
This is the point in the story where our protagonist Raiden has been forced to confront the fact that despite his desire to do justice his actions are still monstrous and he still leaves a trail of death in his wake just like in his past which is hammered home by the character Monsoon who directly confronts Raiden with this and the idea that there is no escape and that his want fur justice is pointless because mankind can never truly escape its violent nature.
This is also the point in the story where Raiden finally forces himself to accept this part of himself and start to come to terms with it.
My most distinct memory of this moment was grinning and cackling because during this harrowing moment Raiden was wearing the tourist sombrero and poncho I unlocked earlier and equipped. It goes without saying that I did not experience the moment as intended.
"It's time for Jack... to let 'er rip!"
Please tell me the sombrero covers his face when he says this.
No, that's as intended welcome to metal gear
It also goes from that to having an emo guitar-riff start playing as you battle the magnetic noodle ninja.
MGS is all over the place. I wouldn't want it any other way.
pretty sure everyone wore the mexico outfit for the entire game, because it is simply the best costume in any game ever. He is a kickflipping cyborg ninja that is dressed as a Mariachi band member.
If you moved the camera during Monsoon's monologue, you could also see a guard playing with a stray cat and after the fight you can have a codec call with your pals about what kind of food is popular in Monsoon's home country.
Yahtzee evolved from "crazy bloke who speaks truth very fast" to "relatable brit dad who points the obvious". I'm proud of him.
Isnt he australian
@@HoliestOfCows nope he just lives there. He’s a Brit!
I'm glad I don't have to slow down his videos just to understand him anymore. 😅
The thing about pointing out the obvious is if people stop doing it these things will stop being obvious.
@@Crazygamergal damn. What crime did he commit to warrant him moving there?
This totally happened to me during Fallout 4. Piper was with me as we went through a super mutant filled building. I'd just lock picked a door open which triggered her to bring up concerns with how she was raising her sister. I get that doing things they like brings a companion's affection up which opens dialogue. It was just a bad time. There were murderous mutants just on the other side of the hallway and she brings up deep emotional unrelated issues. It was not the time for family therapy.
Great example. I feel like this and Yahtzee's point are good summaries for why sandbox games in particular suffer from these issues. I thoroughly enjoyed Skyrim and the Fallout games, but as you play, at some point they start to lose their sense of thematic urgency and drama.
But it's not as if this couldn't be tracked, if they wanted to. Coming up with a semi-decent tension metric, and locking events and dialogue to specific tension windows is something even an indie dev could do. Adding different dialogue after a fight depending on how well the fight went is something you can already see in games that try. Giant games, in their giantness, just have to plan for this from the beginning, and they choose not to, because they don't care about this enough for the money. Back in the day, Psycho mantis could tell that you had SotN saves in your memory card, this isn't hard.
I'd argue that one of the main reasons Hades is so good is that so much of the game's dialogue is tied to your behavior. Which weapon and aspect are you using? Which other gods have you had conversations with lately? How well is the run going? Who is set as your current summon? If you are spending any money on dialogue, it has to have affordances that make sure it makes sense with the gameplay situation... unless you are Ken Levine. Because then you consider that trying to mix heady philosophy with plain old shooting mechanics is a feature.
We'll chalk it up to radiation-related brain damage. Also, I'm pretty sure if you're far enough away from them you can avoid the conversation until the next time you talk to them, but then they make a snarky comment like "Oh you've got time for me now?"
@@brettbewley5798 Can be done right tho. And of course it's New Vegas. Of course even that has to railroad some plot points, but for the most part it keeps the correct tone, even when being silly. I loved that on rare occasions companions would drop voice lines relevant to what you are doing. My favourite being Cass when going into stealth, saying; "Be weeery quiet! We're hunting shit-heads!"
You had a gun. She had a gun. You both had enemies. I think it'd be a good time for sorting things out.
There's a bit in The Callisto Protocol where a character dies sadly, and the devs actually made it so you can't stomp on the corpse. So at least they were trying to force you to keep to the tone of the moment.
It’s a crazy balance. I both understand the choice to make it to where I can’t stomp the corpse, but it also breaks my immersion because I immediately felt the presence of the developers on my gameplay.
Yahtzee is certainly sharpening his knives for that one. Hopefully not in a forced "lul comment on the trendy bad game of the moment."
@@paulrus-keaton439 I imagine the overly long death animations are going to be an issue.
...is the game about stomping corpses? A sad death scene being in a game about stomping corpses doesn't sound like a great idea.
@@UM96lol you do indeed have to stomp a great many monster corpse throughout the game.
Speaking of tonal dissonance, for me the greatest moment of tonal dissonance is the press F to pay respects moment from COD AW. It would have been so easy to just have a cut scene and the soldier saluting his fallen comrade, but no, they made it a hilarious meme by having you press a button to salute
Shows how tonedeaf the CoD writers are even to their own audience, now that I think about it. Pretty patronizing, actually.
There's a bit in an older God of War game in which you have to mash a button to abandon your daughter. I haven't played the game, but it looks ridiculous. Despite the maker of the CZcams video I saw it in arguing that it was great game design.
They just want to recreate MGS3's "press square to kill your mentor" moment but didn't know what makes it work
On the one hand, yes. But on the other hand, F is now used as an unironic salute. By people who have no idea it came from CoD I should add.
@@ArifRWinandar as is usually the case for AAA. They try to replicate an element of a game that resonated with players without thinking about WHY it resonated with players.
It's the reason why for a while there every game was trying to be Gears of War, CoD or Minecraft.
I will also add that there are also ways to use jarring tonal shifts on purpose. Some of the best horror and thriller series use that to great effect, where it can shift from light-hearted to dark within a few short sentences and back again to keep a sense of unease and mystery. However, I recognise you aren't talking about intended tonal shifts as much as laziness causing tone to be lost. But, if writers want both light-hearted banter and dark grit, there is a way to balance these two factors delicately in a way they feed off each other.
Now I'm suddenly curious what would happen if Bong Joon-ho decided to make a game, lol.
@@jasonblalock4429 ooooh he'd probably make something great!
Ok FINE I'll replay Doki Doki Literature Club again...
@@blahthebiste7924 That is definitely a good example!
It's not really laziness - writing and recording all of those dialogues in God of War is the opposite of lazy. It's a difficult balancing problem in a complex situation that people often get wrong and which is guided and restricted by the conventions and expectations of the medium - that's what the video is about. It's crazy how much people in comment sections always tend to blame quality issues in games and films on 'laziness' to avoid facing the fact that sometimes creators just make questionable decisions in the execution of a story. The topic is always more nuanced than 'laziness'.
Sonic's struggle in tone comes from the fact he was made not for adults, but not for kids either: he was made for teens, and teenagers are ALWAYS struggling to find their identity. He was made with the intention of being "cooler and edgier" than Mario, which was totally family friendly, but "damn" is their definition of super scandalous swear word. Everytime they make him be serious or cartoonishly meta there's always a lingering disatisffaction that he didn't push it enough or he pushed it too far, and apparently this isn't gonna stop anytime soon.
You could always just watch more anime or read more manga. Sonic's tone stems from Japan's creative cultural, where tone is allowed to be multifaceted and earnest, at least in the action genre. That's what keeps the medium appealing.
@buntado6 Sure they was a push for the teenage crowd but the problem is by nature and design he’s meant for younger kids, so trying to giving him cerebral storylines is ludicrously jarring.
Lost World and Colours I think work well because they’re light and fun and the stakes especially in the latter are low.
Another problem is that’s been decades of comics giving Sonic ridiculously edgy plotlines tempering his fans expectations.
@@li-limandragon9287 Sonic by nature and design was not exactly for younger kids. He was a video game character who was made to be cooler than Mario. His design was cartoony, but the character was still not given a certain demographic. In fact, in the early years of sonic's existence not only were there three different sonic series with different tones, but even a comic series that clearly was not made with little kids in mind, and that was one of the longest-running comic series Archie had ever made. There is nothing wrong with giving sonic a not-so-childish story, sonic 3&K, sonic Adventure1&2, and Black Knight proved that to be the case. Sonic stories should be stories that while they have their serious moments, will have that classic cheesiness and confidence that comes with it. Sure it doesn't have to be super serious either like 06 or Shadow The Hedgehog was.
There is nothing wrong with a light-hearted sonic story either, but there is a difference between light-heartedness and dangling keys in front of your face. Sonic Heroes IMO is a way better example of that specific style of story. It had its serious moments, but it did not drown out the overall tone of the game. Unlike the games you mentioned, which were either overtly anti-climactic or totally disproportionate. Sonic Colors while it was a simple story and kind of knew what it was, not only was the humor that made for that specific audience bad to where even that specific audience wouldn't laugh at it, but in moments where there is supposed to be tension, its sucked right out. Not even the cartoons that the targeted demographic would watch would let that slide also it is funny that you mentioned Sonic Lost World because that is literally the walking example of tonal dissonance. Its story was simple on paper, but the dialogue was trying so desperately hard to make this game dark when it did not have to be. The only reason why Lost World is 13+ is because of the straight laughable ass speech Eggman gave about eating the hearts of the zeti. I'd rather have a game that it's dialogue matches the tone of the story and is confident with it than whatever Lost World was.
Sonic's character, stories, and games have tones that can be described by the Japanese genre of Shounen. He is a cool, fast running hedgehog with the mindset of a vagabond. His stories have always stayed within that specific category, hell, he even has an anime with that exact tag on it. No matter what, sonic will always have some sense of tonal dissonance because his fanbase is humongous and sonic team is only 60+ people. I think it is fine this way, sonic was never a character made to represent one group of fans. Sonic has always been in the midst of an experiment, trying something new, trying something cool(remember when he was surf board racing), and that is alright. Because his fanbase is always growing, young fans become old fans, old fans become even older fans. They all share the same love for that free spirited hedgehog with red shoes.
Anyways, this getting too long, sorry for the minuscule rant, I was kind of bored lol. At the end of the day, how you enjoy and view sonic is completely up to you and thats how it always was.
@@tman_theboss4171 this comment alone prove that he's right. Sonic should focus on kids and evolve like Mario.
His fans are holding him back which he's also right about that as well.
If you're gunna use kids and teens as shields, it proves that I'm right about adult fans are holding Sonic back.
@@firefoxriouyh6541 It did that for 10 years, it devolved.
I'm sure talking shit about Sonic AND God of War will bring all the reasonable people into discourse.
I disagree with his take because this same critique can be leveled at games darlings like half life or fallout where everyone has a pretty chipper attitude in the wake of the apocalypse. I see this criticism as just a more robust form of cinemasins criticism.
was the chaos suitably entertaining? how did your popcorn taste?
@@prog8454 Don't compare Yatzee with that bloated den of critical incompetence that is cinemasins. Zero Punctuation is on point and consistent about his criticisms.
@@pedropachecosantos4477 I don't see these issues about the tone being that important to the game. Honestly, the problems of AAA open-world games, like grinding, do more in taking the player out of the world the devs crafted than tonal issues. For a game that I do like that has issues tonally, Citizen Sleeper, without getting into spoilers, for how isolated some of the storylines are, the shifts in tone make the setting charming, but the lack of overlap or callbacks to some storylines sometimes feels strange, but I still like the game's story. My comparison to cinmeasins is that they are the prime example of a tendency in online criticism where if the protagonist does, something you wouldn't do is a problem. Meanwhile, papers please is a game where most of the time, you either have to help yourself, your family, and those who want to enter the country. And if naughty dog made a new uncharted game that takes Yahtzee's tone criticism, I would predict that it would be a bland jack-of-all-trades master of none game like some of the open world/ghost train games he criticized in the past.
Yahtzee fans have a weird sort of simultanous shock jock attitude and a near-permanent victim complex
Mario is interesting in that Nintendo has shown themselves capable of slipping more mature concepts into their games (particularly the RPGs) and some genuinely heartfelt moments without losing the feel of it being a Mario title.
The one that comes to my mind is Paper Mario Origami King and the character of Bobby, who manages to be genuinely emotionally traumatizing while still fitting in with a game where you are obligated to fight a stapler to the death.
Mario I feel is a outlier, he can be in more serious plot but he himself unlike Sonic stays the same always no matter what the situation is. I mean he gets his head crushed in Ultimate by Ridely and very few of us blinked. I show that to a child and they’ll be very upset.
I feel like Mario becomes a silent protagonist in the rpgs - not completely, but to some degree. Which is a positive thing, because it means his comical nature is kept on the low when it comes to serious storytelling moments. Meanwhile Sonic could be quipping at any given moment and if he doesn't he is basically breaking character.
Yeah but now you have myamoto stopping any attempt at créative Mario rpgs. The days where we could have stories like super paper Mario are long gone
The bobomb in origami king was intended to be a joke and the ‘sad death’ was a punchline
I think Mario gets away with these tobe shifts because of two key aspects:
1) Mario is a blank slate. He is not a character, he is the embodiment personality archetype: brave, confident, strong etc. The same goes for all his friends. Mario can be slapped in any scenario or game genre and it will make sense. The thing with Sonic is that he was designed from the get go as a character, with backstory, likes and dislikes, relationship with other characters. His world and lore are also more defined and complex than Mario's, so any Sonic project has to write around those elements.
2) Mario games are always good. No matter what genre of story they tell, Mario is always good and fun to play. You can't say the same about all Sonic games.
The idea of funny little cartoon character in an abandoned post-apocalyptic world isn't inherently bad. Kirby and the forgotten land does it pretty well by having Kirby remain tonally consistent in that he is a little pink baby that's unaware of of the greater significance of being surrounded by these ruins but there's still a story being told about them in the background.
Personally I find games that find the right balance between seriousness and levity and their tones to be far more interesting. I also think that sentiment is getting more popular over time but the balance is very difficult to pull off.
Kirby, sonic, pokemon
Heck even stuff like Power Rangers and Superheroes can be used tell serious and mature stories.
"But they look goofy!"
So what? They can look goofy and still tell serious or mature story.
@@gayanudugampola8973 oh my god this, I think it's so limiting to have a restrain that if something is "goofy" it can't have a story that wants to be a little more serious.
@@gayanudugampola8973 Mmhm they could be, but they are not used to tell serious and mature stories. You could also argue that Marvel universe could be used to tell serious and mature stories but until you show this to be done they are just copy paste cartoon characters throwing out snarky one liners whom never need to face any compelling moral dilemmas and whom always return back to the status quo in their character and in their story by the end of the movie/serie/comic/game or whatever
Well, there's also the fact that Kirby games are all secretly Lovecraftian horror games that just superficially *look* like cartoon platformers, but I feel like that's a separate issue.
@@inkerikaarto3819 Ah, God, I would say, "give Hickman's run on New Avengers a shot," because it gets _heavy_ and, at it peaks, its got compelling moral dilemmas out the wazoo the outcomes of which can be legitimately heartbreaking. It even manages to do a good job of making Reed Richards feel relatable, human and even sympathetic even if you don't agree with him (something that long-time Marvel readers will know can be a struggle at the best of time) and has the Galactica reboot feel where, even when (most) characters you're supposed to like make bad calls you really do feel like they're doing their best under pressure that would crush most people.
...the issue is that it wasn't _just_ Hickman's run on New Avengers. It was Hickman's run on New Avengers ...and Avengers ...and Mighty Avengers ..and Avengers World ...and it had a big frig-off event comic called Infinity in the middle of it ...and it ended with another event comic that was kind of a mess and, yes, hit the reset button (although you kind of have to give them that one because they wouldn't be able write any more comics otherwise by that point). It's an _insane_ amount of reading and you can really only skip Mighty if you want to have a proper handle on what's happening.
I always die laughing in dragon age when whoever you're romancing decides to start a conversation about your relationship right during random bloody fights. like it's fine to have romance and combat in the same game but there's definitely a clash there when they happen at the same time lol
Were they trying to pull casual danger dialogue with that? I'm legit confused.
Only 2 minutes input I feel like Sonic is in a state of damned if you do damned if you don't when it comes to the tone of the story. If it tries to be light-hearted and cartoony then critics will complain that it isn't a serious story with stakes, if it tries to take itself seriously and in my opinion do a good job in the case of frontiers then critics complain that Sonic doesn't need a serious story. It's almost like Sonic is in a perpetual state of always losing with people.
Honestly though, if I that if the Muppets could have a really serious interpretation of a Christmas Carol that most of the time plays it super straight, for example, why can't Sonic have a serious story? Would you look at Kermit as Bob Cratchit and say "he's a fucking frog puppet"
I think it's more a damned if you do, damned if you don't when it comes to fans. Critics are more aligned with saying that Sonic shouldn't really have serious stories due to his design and the poor writing of 06 and ShTH.
The fans are more split between those who believe that Sonic shouldn't have serious stories and those who grew up with the more serious storytelling of the 2000s.
I think the best compromise you can get is Unleashed, a story that takes itself with some seriousness but has Chip as a comic relief and is carried by the character interactions between the two and the inhabitants.
My philosophy is simple, if I feel a piece of media is genuinely taking itself seriously then I’ll do the same, there’s a limit of course but it’s hard to reach. In the case of “blue cartoon mouse exploring ruined desolate civilization” I don’t see that as a huge problem, the problem would arise when all those brightly colored cartoon animals are yelling quips and pulling tom and jerry antics in that serious setting.
Most of this philosophy stems from being highly averse to any form of cringe culture (at least how it is today).
Maybe because I’ve grew up with stuff that has “very cartoon looking cartoon in a serious or moody setting” given I read a lot of independent comics, video games , and cartoon, but you still can put it off. Again do not what do what late MCU is doing and be more consistent with your tone. It more of a writing problem then a style tone
"if I feel a piece of media is genuinely taking itself seriously then I’ll do the same"
My first thought after this was that this is probably part of why I don't really go for JRPGs (maybe why Yahtzee isn't all that into them either?). Because they have a habit of trying to take themselves far too seriously at the same time as injecting mountains of melodrama.
It's an especially odd point to get hung up on considering that the second game in the entire Sonic franchise finishes on a Star Wars plotline.
@@Kujaguy Those games were so vague, though, that it's a bit of "insert desired tone here". Yeah, he's stopping a super weapon but it never gets close to firing and doesn't kill anyone so you can go anywhere from Saturday morning cartoon antics to near apocalypse averted.
@@uberculex I understand what you're saying, but even as a 7 year old I understood the plot of Sonic 3 and Knuckles to be a more serious story than the other games. The game did a fantastic job of establishing a narrative without words and communicated the stakes of what was happening by Sky Sanctuary.
I just don't subscribe to the notion that you need to have "humans" in your story to convey a plot that takes itself seriously. The franchise evolved over time, and told some compelling stories-game quality notwithstanding.
The Uncharted games always felt like the evolution of arcade shooter games to me. They'd kept the maps and absurd enemy counts designed to make you pop another coin in when you inevitably died, but then added platforming and puzzles to string the fights together instead of (or in addition to) the cinematic that pushed you to the next "level" or "round".
I'd argue Uncharted draws more from cinema than from gaming. Depending on who you ask, the character interactions and cinematics might be the more important contents in the Uncharted games.
And the cinematic tone is based on Indiana Jones, who also killed a ton of people in an otherwise lighthearted series of adventure movies. The only reason Drake's body count is higher is because Indiana Jones only had like 90 minutes of screen time to murder as many people as he could.
Which, gameplay-wise, is why I never cared for the Uncharted games. You fight seemingly endless hordes of generic bad guys in set pieces with chest high walls. But for me, it got tiresome after awhile. Just when I thought I cleared an area, nope, more guys pile out and I still have to kill another two dozen. The first one is especially guilty for that. I admit the series got less tiresome with waves of enemies along the way, but it was still tiresome for me.
this is one way to put bland gameplay in movie games in a positive light lol
Well then this is a boring evolution.
I think the big thing is that you can do pretty much whatever you want with the tone as long as you do so with good timing. undertale has an incredibly broad range of tone, but because it gives the moment time to breathe, we accept a world where cartoon shenanigans and heartrending emotional drama can coexist, often with the same characters involved in both without ever feeling out of place.
I think with the right kind of writing, sonic could very easily have a deep and compelling narrative without feeling like he's in the wrong genre.
it's all the "realistic" stuff that drags Sonic down tbh. Undertale had its' heavy themes but it was never ashamed of being a goofy world with cartoon monsters. Sonic games, for some reason, keep falling into the same trap of trying to put Sonic in gritty environments with guns and humans and whatnot. which completely backfires when the gameplay is about running fast and grabbing magic floating rings while doing tricks.
the esthetics are tonally inconsistent which make the tone jarring as well.
@@zilesis1 I don’t know, seem to work with the themes of “manslaughter, terrorism, grief, and revenge” in Sonic Adventure 2. I don’t remember much of anyone complaining back then.
@mikeliosketch746 Sonic Adventure 2 still had wacky physics and semi-silly levels I think. Not saying it was perfect, it absolutely wasn't, but I think people were mostly just excited so much by the first SA game being a large departure, semi-open world to explore with "deep" stories, and then went sparkly-eyed over Shadow because he was Immortal Emo Goth Sonic and Rouge because she was the first official noodle-limbs with tiddy and a butt. People crooned over Princess Sally because she was a mostly nekkid ground squirrel lol at least at first (edit: they gave her some clothes over time per iteration and some of us still croon over her, like me lol.) Sonic fans just want furry bait, an edgy or emotional story, hopefully fun gameplay, and for it not to look like azzzzz. Human beings included works better when they're somewhat stylized to be cartoony as well. ALSO Sonic Adventure 1 was set in South America. I don't remember if SA2 was before the space station levels but having new locations helped.
@@mikeliosketch746 Except SA2's TONE was still very light-hearted, optimistic and saturday-morning-cartoon-like the whole time. It was telling a story and there was some drama, yeah, but it never took itself too seriously. Theme and tone aren't the same thing. Maybe you played it as a kid but it's been awhile, you should replay it to reexamine it (also because it's still pretty fun)
@zilesis1 games like Lost World were as cartoony and colorful as can be but the tone still sucked
I've been noticing this in big budget movies as well. It's like they're petrified of having any deep conflict, suffering, or sincerity in their stories.
Most egregious is Thor: Love and Thunder. The antagonist loses his daughter spurring a grim quest for revenge and another character is dying of cancer. This same film has Matt Damond and Melissa McArthy playing Thor's two dead siblings in a comedic play. Also, the narrator is a funny rock monster who used to be a brutal gladiatorial pit slave.
It's like trying to eat a cake but you keep biting into chunks of sauerkraut. You can't have both in the same dish!
bit of a tonal shift since people go to movies for escapism but then you got all this grim stuff happening but the characters smile and let it happen. i think the strongest parts of strictly comedy things, like futurama, are the times when they're serious. it elevates the serious moments to heights beyond what even a serious show can do. it's like how in super mario 64 there's a piano that scares the shit out of people, or the dark bits in ocarina of time. or seymour in futurama.
tonal shifts are super strong if done right.
@AchedSphinx
"All right. Grab a shovel. I'm one skull away from a Mouseketerr reunion."
You're 100% right about Futurama. Those writers knew when to use jokes to relieve tension in the more serious episodes. "Knives Out" and "Hot Fuzz" also blend drama and comedy well.
You can. Soak the sauerkraut in water and you can use it as a tangy filling. Brian D Hollis made one of his videos about a sauerkraut chocolate cake.
Yes I am well aware of this metaphor's intention, but I also think you might find it mighty fascinating that it's not actually true to reality.
That was my exact critique of Ragnarok as well, nothing sums up Marvel's disdain for anyone attempting to treat their stories with the slightest bit of seriousness or internal consistency then the "Thor spinning around on a chain" gag from the opening.
@@chukyuniqul I did find this fascinating. Thanks!
"Dont be afraid to be cheesy" is my favorite writing advice
Well Sonic is not and we see what that gets them here.
@@twilightvulpine *Looks at Sonic adventure 2* are you sure?
@@twilightvulpine bro taking like Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 and IDW comics don't exist. 💀
@@twilightvulpineSonic is the Cheese king bro.
@@gayanudugampola8973 Yahtzee dick riders can't form their own opinions without him
Spec Ops: The Line handled this really well by making enemies become more and more aggressive and monstrous and offering you a little extra satisfying head plop when you got the headshot on them, until you get to the end and realize it's because your character had a psychotic break earlier in the game and now is constantly hallucinating.
I think his whole "Sonic can't be serious because of his character design" is a super interesting point of view just because it's fascinating to see how differing environments shape how people see things.
For example, as someone who grew up watching primarily animated stuff like disney/pixar movies, superhero media, and other cartoons, having outlandish character designs experience serious moments doesn't take me out of it. It's what I've seen most of my life after all.
I find his views especially interesting as well because he likes(at least I think he does) the Yakuza games where the tonal shifts are the whole point. You're a big brooding Yakuza member beating the shit out of goons and the next moment you're playing with toy racecars surrounded by children. I understand the difference is that this is played for laughs but it's just cool to see where some people will draw the line in the sand
I think it's just the visual of the cartoon hedgehog known for his love of chili dogs is an inseparable barrier between him and plot immersion. It would be if the next Garfield Kart took place in a post apocalypse it would be hard to treat it seriously no matter the quality of the writing.
So, I like the serious sonic thing because I find it entertaining and makes the series less predictable and therefore a more unusual experience.
BUT to Yahtzee's point - Yakuza takes something serious and makes it goofy on purpose, and does a good job of making it goofy. What it does is intentional and it works. When Sonic takes itself seriously, it generally only succeeds in making itself kind of camp and edgy. Same with God of Wars murder spree and dialogue: Yes it can be entertaining, but its clearly not entertaining in the way the people who made it intended.
(haven't played Yakuza) Aren't the toy racecars optional?
@@FelipeKana1 Wow tone down the condescending attitude jesus christ.
@@larkison9140 that is incorrect, there's been a bunch of good Sonic stories (SA2/Unleashed/Black Knight and now Frontiers).
Sonic has taken itself seriously since the beginning.
There's nothing wrong with edge either.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who played along in my first playthrough of Half Life 2. It really felt like I was a part of the story. Subsequent playthroughs are just a game of how many times I can teleport the flower pot back and forth before I get bored and try to find the headcrab.
Yahtzee gives the fatherly tough love that the gaming industry needs but does not deserve
And James Stephanie Sterling is the even tougher love that the game industry both needs and deserves.
@@gonesnake2337 cant relate
@@gonesnake2337 In fairness, they target completely different areas. Yahtzee focuses more on issues with the games, themselves, whereas JSS tends to target the horrors that have become entrenched in the cultures of the companies that _make_ those games.
Both are valuable and deserve to have a light shone on them... especially when those companies seem incapable of recognizing the issues, themselves.
ngl his talk about tone in Sonic to me feels more like the Skinner meme where he goes "Am I out of touch? No it's the children who are wrong"
I’m not sure, he liked Undertale and Spiritfarer despite them doing the same thing as Sonic, being cartoony but still able to be serious. Heck, he even enjoys the early Paper Mario games and they had their serious moments. It’s hard to explain but his point kind of gets it across. Sonic wasn’t made for the stories he’s been put through. I’d argue the biggest problems with Colours, Generations and Lost World’s story wasn’t that it was childish and needing more serious topics… they were just boring because the writing wasn’t good and the comedy was just bland.
The main reason I find that people are so connected to Sonic stories, even if they don’t like the series, is because it is an amazingly cathartic and unforgettable series for all the wrong reasons. It imprints itself on the mind and refuses to let go as these iconic child friendly mascot characters go through ludicrous scenarios with gameplay that feels like it’s held together by duct tape at times. It’s impossible not to feel slightly endeared towards the series for that reason. It’s like seeing a toddler walk and fall over repeatedly but suddenly it does an impressive backflip once every 5 years to give you the hope that it’ll finally start running before it starts face planting again.
"So, Yahtzee. Can you tell the court how Rouge the Bat hurt you?"
No, but he can tell you how her creepy fans have traumatized him.
It's always weird to me how people talk about skimpy costumes sexualising female Sonic characters....when all the men are running round naked except for gloves and shoes.
@@paulgibbon5991 That's like saying Minnie mouse has more sex appeal than Rouge because Minnie is topless, if you can't see the difference between featureless cartoon body and big bat boobies equipped with jiggles physics encased in a heart then I idk what to tell you.
I think I'd argue that to a certain extent the problem Yahtzee is talking about is inherent in the medium the same way a musical might struggle with its tone when the characters suddenly break out into song. There's a point where you have to kind of just accept/embrace the absurdity inherent in video games as a game developer and go "look: this is silly. We know it's silly. But just roll with it, okay?" Of course, when and how you do that is a can of worms on its own.
What you are referring to is suspension of disbelief, but usually in games the suspension of disbelief comes from the fact that the character you are controlling would behave in the ways you make him, rather than what makes sense for the story or the character. Also music in a musical is used to set the tone the same way game-play can in games, so the silly part about these games would be akin to every song in Les Miserables being sung like Modern Major General, it can still be a well made song, but it is also going to feel jarring in terms of tone.
It primarily comes from games trying too much to offer a certain experience that they just aren't suited for. Sometimes it's because of their genre, sometimes it's because of the medium itself, and AAA video games are notoriously bad at working with the medium and as a result constantly work against it. Sonic Frontiers is trying too much to be Breath of the Wild or Shadow of the Colossus, when it should've just been "we want to make an open-world game. How would that work as a Sonic game?" and work from there. GoW: R and games like it try too much to be huge hollywood blockbusters with the emotional gut punches of the most memorable movies in history but they also have to be a video game and a product at the same time so jarring inconsistencies and pacing issues happen.
Some Indie games have largely figured this out. A game like Hades explaining why the levels keep rearranging themselves and how death is baked into the narrative is working within the confines of the narrative needing to be a game at the same time. They are now working in tandem rather than your narrative immersion and suspension of disbelief competing for your mental resources. Deathloop does a pretty good job at explaining your deaths by using the time loop gimmick, and Arkane's immersive sims in general are great at explaining why the protagonist is so much more powerful than all the NPCs running around.
Point is, Games can be unique narrative experiences if they stick to doing what games do best which is interactivity. It's similar to the jump movies made going from being basically filmed theater plays to integrating cuts, camera angles, and pacing to its narrative advantage rather than having those elements silently work against it.
@@gwen9939 Literally all Sega had to do was flatten the textures of everything. Compare Sonic Frontier's high-detail, high-contrast realistic textures, with Breath of the Wild's more painterly aesthetic. Had Sega done something like that, they could have had whatever open-world malarkey they wanted, and Sonic would have actually fit into his surroundings visually.
Imagine playing Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, but with Toon Link from Wind Waker. It would look fucking bizarre. That's the problem with Sonic Frontier's realistic art-style, and it's a problem that anyone with functioning eyes could tell you how to solve.
Him complaining about Uncharted's "ludonarrative dissonance" is when I rolled my eyes out of my head. You really think replacing the bullets in Nate's gun with fluffy marshmallows is going to elevate how people perceive the humor and quips in those games?
I find Yahtzee's writing entertaining but he loves him some low hanging fruit
@@jammer4317or. Or. Less enemies. Or maybe just sedation darts. Or maybe he doesnt need to kill anyone and its just puzzles and parkour.
If the game *was* just an adventurous romp itd be a lot more forgiveable than "spree killer Drake quipfest"
The start of Sonic's insane tone was Sega Japan back in 1990. Sonic originally had a human girlfriend, a rock band, jagged teeth, wilder design, etc. Sega America barged in and changed the tone to be more consistent.
Coincidentally, from Sonic Adventure (after Sega America were out of the picture) onwards, that's when humans came back and particularly with SA2, the anime influences became _far_ more apparent.
More plausibly is simply that Sega is just using the varied tone to focus target, and…well, it seems to work.
I feel like it's not necessarily bad to have the tonal clash, it's part of what makes say, Metal Gear Rising so memorable. But it's definitely a delicate balance.
MGR gets a free pass because it’s part of the Metal Gear franchise which same as Resident Evil has always had mixed tone.
More adult media is allowed to be serious with bouts of goofiness or goofy with edgy moments. When it’s Sonic though, it makes more sense to stay light and fun like Mario rather then try and be Shakespearean.
@@li-limandragon9287 Even Mario fans are unsatisfied with the lack of serious stories like in the second and third Paper Mario, with Super Paper Mario being pretty Shakespearean by the end, and the first four Mario & Luigi games. Just because it was never in mainline games doesn't mean Mario was always safe and boring. Heck, Sunshine and Galaxy both go for bittersweet and serious endings. Galaxy 2 was the start of the downfall.
@@genyakozlov1316 exactly. Kids love serious shit btw too.
There's a difference between shoving an IP into a setting it doesn't belong in and doing so with intention to make it part of its identity. MGR doesn't clash nearly as much as Sonic Frontiers either. Most of the things happening makes sense within the wacky universe of the games, and being by definition satire of the american industrial complex and all the media that unjustly praises it, over-the-tope stereotypes and mocking imagery to drive home a point makes perfect sense in the context of what the game's established narrative goals are.
Kojima franchises stopping at nothing to inject copious amounts of homo-erotic subtext and manservice, and never explaining any of it is just a really funny long-running joke.
@@gwen9939 second level of literally first sonic game had him running through ruins of lost civilization. He does that in literally every game.
to be fair Sonic was always the "2cool4school" mascot from the beginning. Shadow was basically to 00s what Sonic was to the 90s.
I think one of my favorite instances of players choosing to engage themselves in the tone and play along with the story would be in FFXIV. During launch week of Endwalker, when you got to the fifth zone of the expansion, just about every single person there I saw went out of their way to use the outfit given to them by the characters so that we wouldn't 'stand out' in the world. Nobody had to. Hell, you didn't even have to equip it to proceed the quest. Thousands of players willingly forsake their own Glamour outfit to immerse themselves in a story because two fan favorite characters asked them too.
Absolutely wonderful.
I think the core of the problem is that instead of starting with an experience they want to evoke and then working from there to design gameplay, story, and presentation to fit that, most AAA games start from the desire to have everything that anyone could possibly want, cram it all together, and then try to teach people to think that's ok even though the result is a kludgy mess which can't maintain things like tone and pacing because that would require committing to something and turning some audience members away.
Those plotlines for games like Sonic Colors, Generations, and Lost World were made for ppl like this btw guys. In case you were wondering why that happened.
My favorite example of tonal differences would probably be comparing Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 boss fights. In two they say a line and try to kill you, grunt when you hit them and so forth, but in three they won't shut up about how they're going to kill you. Even when you're clearly not having any problems, they won't shut up and never even change tone while dying.
Yeah, and the lack of dialogue from the main character adds to their personalities and feelings to certain actions in D2. The tone of the necromancer noticing “Too many open graves…” or the bluntness of the sorceress saying “Good riddance!” all add to the overall feeling that each dialogue was short, to the point, and was a glimpse into the mind of the character.
D3 characters will tell you their whole fucking morning routine, their last dental appointment, and their stupid life stories, all the time, and you never got a moment to just absorb the world, the atmosphere, the music, or anything…
Any downtime was spent in D3 with useless lore dumps, pointless banters between the character and the mercenaries, and fundamentally, every character felt the same, and the villains all felt like Saturday morning cartoon villains. It’s a huge problem with not just Blizzard, but modern writing and pacing in films and games - it just shows a lack of respect for the audience.
something ive always enjoyed is the rare moments where ludonarrative dissonance was actually used as a tool to further the narrative. the bioshock series (spoilers sort of?) tells you one thing through its genre choice and options of approach but ultimately confronts you with an unavoidable fate, which isn't at all in line with the freedom the game seems to be giving you. then you realize that the dissonance was a harmony in disguise, where all of your choices are confronted with their unimportance and the narrative theming is strengthened.
i can tell you watched that sole porpoise video as well haha
Would you kindly not spoil BioShock?
The counter argument to Sonic Frontiers is “what? Can cartoonish things not still address adult issue? Bojack Horseman and Berty and Tuca are cartoons but deal with themes of Adult Life.” I’ll admit the abrupt juxtaposition in Frontiers is a failing, but I think the overall concept could be done.
You start with a Gibli-esque viewpoint of a ruined nation, a sunny day overlooking the sweeping plains dotted with relics. The game emphasizing adventurous mystery and exploration, before transitioning into the more serious tone of what it means for such ruins to exist.
Animation is a medium, not a style- any medium can address most issues if you consider it well enough first, and I don’t think anyone would call Bojack Horseman ‘Cartoonish’, they’re just animated shows.
the problem isn’t that sonic is a cartoon character, is that he’s a character designed for kids
@@bmckelvy5717 "the problem isn’t that sonic is a cartoon character, is that he’s a character designed for kids"
So was Goku and any other Shounen Jump protag. And Sonic was born in that same cultural space. Not a good reason.
I honestly feel a clash in tone can be an artistic statement that enhances the narrative. Going with the cartoon animals example of Sonic, Fritz the Cat and Watership Down are so the first to come to mind. Both of them use cute/cartoon animals in natives that clash with what their designs normally represent. In both cases this is used to say something, and that might be the part that sonic seems to be lacking.
But a lot of people seem to enjoy the tonal clash of the sonic games so something about the juxtaposition is appealing to some people. Whatever, I'm probably outing myself as one of the weirdos Yahtzee was talking about.
I think you make a great point. The absurdity of cartoon characters being in a brooding and dark story can become part of the tone and narrative itself.
Bone's another pretty good example of that. An epic fantasy comic that features three central characters who look as if they jumped right out of a newspaper comic strip.
When the Muppets wanted to tell stories that got dark, they used a different Muppet design than they did for silly musicals. The Care Bears could not star in a Grave of the Fireflies remake without causing a level of tonal dissonance that might seriously injure someone.
Good point, i was actually going to bring up the Muppets as an example of dreary settings with colorful characters. While what youre saying is a good point, for example Christmas Carol still has a baby green frog dying as like a major plot point. And theyre still muppets ultimately
@@maydaymemer4660 It's also a musical, which adds layers of unseriousness and unreality to it; plus being an old and well-known holiday story. For the genuinely dark and scary stories, they made dark and scary muppets. The Dark Crystal, for example.
Muppets is comedy oriented, unlike Sonic. The latter's tone is more like Kingdom Hearts, or Bone the graphic novel.
@@RobotGlovesArt Muppets aren't always comedy-oriented, though. As I mentioned above, they make serious-looking Muppets for serious productions.
And Sonic is always a brightly-coloured big-eyed cartoon hedgehog. Serious and weighty matters are not well-suited to his look, so much so that when they attempted to make a serious-looking version of him in the same art style, it looked like a ridiculous edgelord, and only looked sillier when it was given a motorcycle and a gun.
@@lexslate2476 I think Sonic's biggest flaw is the lack of nuance, he is always a quipy go-lucky cool guy, theres not really any depth to him beyond that.
I think this mostly comes from his main inspiration; Goku from Dragon Ball. Goku only cares about fighting and is a bit of an oblivous idiot. But he cares about people hurting his friends a lot, same with most shonen protagonists. Sonic has i "whatever, i dont care cool" guy attitude, even the idea of "i care about my friends so much i will put myself in danger for them" doesnt really work that well because he never acts like something is a serious threat.
back to the muppets, yes theyre dolls, yes theyre used for comedy. But Kermit is an everyman with a calm demeaner, making him much more versatile for something more serious
The issue I've always had with tone in Triple A games is the fact that it's clear when different departments get their hands on a particular section and take the lead for it. It's gotten to the point where you can split the game apart based on instinct and come out with two different experiences. You have the story and narrative, then you have the world and gameplay.
Destiny had this issue in a huge way, where the fate of humanity is on a razor's edge and the Guardians are the last hope to keep humanity from being snuffed out. The story itself is pretty compelling. Some god like thing comes, gives humans a golden age where thousands of years of progress are achieved in only centuries, only to find out it's been running from some darkness created in its wake, and has a habit of offering up the races it helps to this darkness to slow it down. And now this god is silent, either because it decided humans were worth sticking around for or because it's too tired to run anymore and just... stopped. What happens after is the great collapse and, with it, the birth of the Guardians and their seemingly impossible quest to stop the darkness. That would be all grand, if the core gameplay didn't have you go into raids with enemies that dwarf the power of the machine god, you didn't kill archons and would be gods for fat loot, and didn't already go through multiple DLC stories where you essentially kill the other dark races gods yourself. That eternal fight for survival kind of feels strained when you've got guardians that can face down Oryx and dance half the battle away because they figured out how to do maximum damage in minimum time and are just waiting out the invulnerability timer.
Point is, Triple A games don't just feel tonally inconsistent to me, they feel completely disjointed at times, like they're two separate parts that just... exist along side each other because the devs pushed them together hard enough.
There's a moment in Papers Please where they dismiss the armed guards, and give you a key to a drawer in your booth with a rifle and three bullets, and at one point a guy hops the fence with a bomb and you've got to shoot him. That had more of an impact than all the millions of the demon zombie nazis I've gunned down in FPS games, which I think maintained the tone of the experience very well. That game did occasionally have funny moments, like when the guy hands you two passports and is like "Wait, SHIT! Ummm...Or the guy who hands in a passport drawn in crayon from Cobrastan. Those moments were funny, but they felt in-universe.
Let's give it to Kirby and the Forgotten Land for preserving that Kirby tone despite being set in a post-apocalyptic world.
Every Kirby game is set in a post-apocalyptic world, they just showed it less subtly with this game.
@@deathrychedream land is not post apocalyptic
@@aphato2770 true but it is set in the nintendo equivalent of North Korea where he ruling class horde power and wealth much to the starvation of the common man.
Despite the tonal shift youd think itd bring it fits perfectly with kirby.
@@RAFMnBgaming well thats a sentence i didnt expect to read today
Reading the notification, I thought this was going to be about Sony's problem with Yahztee's "tone" when they don't give The Escapist review codes
I'd say the most awkward examples are the ones where violent gameplay meets not violent character. I'll always remember Lara Croft freaking the fuck out about killing a man with an icepick shortly before I would go on a spree of killing dudes with an icepick. Yeah. The moment had to happen to show things have thoroughly gone south but it's still awkward in a funny sort of way.
I'm not a Sonic fan, nor have I played Sonic Frontiers, but personally the idea of a totally serious story told where the game never seems to acknowledge that all of its characters are cartoon rodents or whatever actually sounds pretty appealing to me if done right. It can give an otherwise serious story an air of camp, which is something I enjoy.
You don’t find it jarring at all? It’s like happy tree friends.
@@chrisb5005Happy tree friends are like Itchy and Scratchy. I think MadWaltz is thinking of something more like Bojack Horseman. Not to make too many assumptions
Exactly! Also you can just have it come down to "that's just how this universe works"
@@chrisb5005I think a reason so many fans are welcoming the serious tone is that we had 4 games over like a 10 year period where all of them had the lightest tone possible (even with forces attempting to be more serious) and it just felt like constant Marvel quippy dialogue where they have to constantly crack jokes, and it just got tiring.
I think the best perspective to take is that it’s less about making the story more serious and more about having a story that actually attempts to make use of the sonic cast in a way that can make the player actually care about what’s happening, contrary to the constant quippy/ironic tone that the four previous games had where it felt like nothing really mattered.
And while it might seem strange that a lot of people seem to want a story that makes them care in a game about mascot characters is simply because for an entire decade most Sonic games managed to at least try doing that, and so for a lot of fans these types of stories are a core part of the Sonic experience
@@sonicblade1587 They tried and slipped and stumbled through so many of those plotlines. As a teenage sonic fan in that era, I don't know how people didn't grow out of them.
"I think Sonic's problem is the fans, frankly" - Yahtzee
Truth or Dare, Yahtzee?
Yahtzee - YES.
He's definitely digging his grave with that one
Sonic fans are like the bronies if anyone remembers.
@@catlerbatty I think the major difference is most bronies knew it was ridiculous to like a show based on MLP, sure it helped the show was much better than expected but with Sonic they take it all a lot more seriously, it’s probably why I like the Sonic Boom TV show because it both doesn’t take itself seriously and shines a light on how ridiculous the fandom can get. Helps the jokes in that land too.
@@LoliconSamalik Yet yahtzee is only critic to voice and name the actual problem of Sonic series which is Sonic's existing fanbase.
@@firefoxriouyh6541 Which is a cheap shot because he points towards the sonic fanbase for the way the story was, not knowing that Takashi Iizuka was the one who pitch for Sonic Adventure to "feel" like a JRPG, story and all, building on the world they made in the Genesis era. And now that same guy is head of Sonic Team.
You just can't keep blaming the fanbase forever for all your gripes with a series.
What I'm getting is that Immersion is key. All the elements of the game have to work in symphony to create the experience, and when one element is out of tune with the other we get some form of dissonance
Actually off-hand quips and jokes are a pretty typical response to harrowing situations; at least ones that I've been witness to. Sure they could mix in a bit more emotional weight to the conversations as well. I think they just need to get the blend right to make it more realistic 20% recovering from fight, 30% emotional moments, 30% quips and 20% randomness maybe?
Yeah, gallows humour is definitely a thing
Yeah, humor is a very strong coping mechanism for stress IRL, so it would help make the characters deal with a harsh situation like we would. You just have to be careful and not go overboard or else it'll give the impression the characters actually don't care, or the other way of none where it'll just make the story feel like a drag and bleak for the sake of bleak.
@@JohnDiGrizUkraine I like it in RE when the characters make little jokes to ease tension. People in life threatening situations often do weird things. It’s only when characters have an entire stand up routine that it becomes a problem.
It's one of the reasons Spider-Man does it all the time. It helps calms his nerves and lightens up the situation as well as assuring those who are scared.
As a Sonic-Fan of some thirty years, I can say that the biggest issue I had with Frontiers was the setting. Everything else I could find some joy in, but that setting served literally no purpose. It's a series of featureless landscapes that feel like they were taken out of an early build of Monster Hunter. There's a reason Sonic existed in a world of bright, cartoony shapes and colors.
You didn't have an issue with the 10 second long levels?
You’re not a sonic fan lmao.
@@arthandle2206 you're right. I just say it online so people think I'm cool
As a Sonic Adventure fan, which I believe had a more semi-realistic artstyle(at least what could be achieved with the limits of the Dreamcast). I didn't have too much trouble with the landscape; I wish there were some more unique ideas and wish the rails were made organically into the terrain as they stick out.
I think Yahtzee's point about tonal dissonance in Sonic is sort of taking the wrong angle. It's not that cute cartoon characters can't drive a more somber, darker and serious narrative. The Sonic series comes with a lot of expectations and baggage, as well as character designs (including personalities, voices, etc) that are pretty much locked in place so there's not a lot of wiggle room to make the two dissonant pieces gel together, nor is the player likely to be compelled to open their heart to the chili dog hedgehog taking on an emotional role.
You could conceivably make this work anyway, but could Sonic team? Their track record tells me probably not.
Sonic Team's track record is to make Sonic a character who inspires change in others. He doesn't necessarily go through large emotional ranges per se, but he inspires others who are in a dark place to "find the light" and become better versions of themselves.
With the exception of the Meta era games, Sonic Team does have a decent track record of telling good stories.
I'm surprised I haven't seen anybody bring up that Sonic *did* have a less wacky, more grounded animated show (Sonic the Hedgehog) that aired at the same time as happy zany fun time Sonic (Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog). Jaleel White even played both Sonics.
@@LoliconSamalikSorry disagree, the behind the scenes in Sonic Forces literally one of the notes from the English consultant was literally “We’re doing the power of friendship again?”
They’re creatively bankrupt when it comes to stories.
@@li-limandragon9287 They also made SA2 and Black Knight which fans largely enjoyed. As well as adventure 1 and heroes and Unleashed. Games like Forces and Colors and Lost World stories largely existed to pander to shitheads like Ben Yahtzee Crenshaw, people who largely hated the characters lore worldbuilding etc. Frontiers sales show that Yahtzee is in the minority.
@@arthandle2206 Sonic team made all the bad Sonic games to "pander" to people who make fun of their bad games? You're really down here digging up comments to respond to after hate-watching Yahtzee?
My dude... there's nothing wrong with liking something 'bad', you don't have to twist yourself into a pretzel for our amusement to feel valid about your enjoyment of a thing.
I think the thing with Sonic is that a lot of us grew up with Sonic stories that did take themselves seriously, so we're used to it and it feels natural for us. Honestly I was so used to Sonic stories that had a more serious tone that colors through Forces just made me roll my eyes, even if that's probably the kind of Sonic game you'd prefer Yahtzee
And while I don't necessarily agree with your stance(having grown up with GOATs like Black Knight, adventure 2, and Unleashed), I at the very least understand it
His criticism against Sonic’s tone is “Sonic is a thing.” OK, I, as a human, is a thing. How is that hack, low effort statement a criticism?
thats the point though, that just because a subset of the fandom has stockholm syndrome over what is kind of objectively silly tonal and theming issues (edgy cartoon hedgehog with an m16) theyre alienating potential future fans even moreso- the adult fans who arent nostalgic about it see it and say "what is this ridiculous garbage" and the children to whom the games should ostensibly be marketed towards see it and their brains say "i lack the context to understand anything thats happening right now at all, this is bad and dumb" and then we're all left with a sonic game that approx. 11 people see and say "wow this is everything i always wanted from a sonic game." maybe it is, but no one else wants it, and thats why the franchise has had such a lackluster reputation for ehhhh 15 years or so
@@whaleping Brother it is a blue cartoon anthropomorphic Hedgehog wearing sneakers. Like I don't know what else to say
@@kaneqost172 Say what? If you have nothing to offer, Sonic’s serious tone is the best for him. “Big dick” reviewers didn’t care about the 2010 games until Sonic Frontiers came around, proving this tone is a perfect direction for Sonic.
@@smiff3429 Hard disagree because kids eat up stories like Adventure, Unleashed, and Black Knight like hot cakes and they all take themselves very seriously balanced by Sonic being a very cocky protagonist who can offset the serious by his Cool Guy Status. It hits a very close tone to Transformers which is enjoyed by people of all ages. The main problem with Shadow the Hedgehog isn't that it's completely absurd (which it is) but the problem with Shadow is that the game has bad writing. Sega misdiagnosed the problem with Sonic being too edgy and made every game from Colors to Forces have sillier writing but those games ALSO have bad writing although in a more Saturday Morning Cartoon way than a Shonen Anime way. Frontiers course corrects from those games and in this case it takes a very similar tone to the comics which the head writer headed for over a decade before hopping onto the games. The difference here is that Sonic Frontiers has good writing. It's not flawless but it is factually better than anything we've gotten since about 2010 outside the comics. You may not like the tone but it's pretty absurd to say "nobody wants this" to a more serious Sonic game when some Disney movies have more serious plots and an emotionally driven Sonic game can hit a lot of notes for adult gamers which imo can be seen in how well Frontiers is selling.
Could God of War example solution be: If player has been in combat in the last 5min (time here is debatable), if Mimir goes "So about that haggis?" Kratos could interrupt "Not now... Give me a moment" and then Mimir would try active that dialogue again after the time limit.
I like that!
I've been sleeping on this for a few days, and it finally hit me what Yahtzee was talking about. Like the setting of frontiers I understood immediately what he was talking about, but the rest of it hit me as I played more and more of frontiers. And then I looked up the music for the boss battles, cause I was like "holy shit this boss music isn't like green hills zone at all" and I saw that Kellin Quinn from sleeping with sirens is featured on a lot of the songs. Like what? I know Sonic's music has been heavy before, and it was edgy, but it's just so surreal to me that a member from sleeping with sirens is now part of Sonic's music.
I think the reason people shrug off Sonic's tonal inconsistencies is because the cartoon aspect of the character isn't enough to automatically break tone.
A slew of Anime, games and comics have put cartoon characters in serious or edgy scenarios without it feeling too forced by making the characters blend with the world around them. So people got used to it. Sonic has also always tried to tell more edgy stories than your typical Mario game, at least since the Adventure Era (you could argue since Sonic CD maybe).
And there are better examples of Sonic clashing tonally than Frontiers which, while certainly not perfect, seems to mostly keep it somewhat consistent with both the characters and the world. While Sonic Forces on the other was absolutely atrocious at this.
I don't think a character's design is enough for them to feel tonally dissonant, at least not in the case of Sonic. All characters in that series are cartoony, so you accept it as part of the world. The bigger problem is when the dissonance comes from character actions/reactions (like the Kratos example)
I'd like to see how Yahtzee reacts to something like Odd Taxi, or alternatively have him explain how this take is compatible with something like Killer 7
Except the problem is that Sonic's world has been very inconsistent!
@@gracehopper9549 You mentioned Odd Taxi in the same sentence as Killer7 so now I HAVE to look it up
@@gracehopper9549 Killer 7 has a pretty consistent tone actually. It is deadly serious the whole time. It's weird as shit but the characters don't really mug at the camera or crack jokes. It is a game about killing and your characters are all killers. The more weird characters are shown to be more unhinged and not tone breaking.
@@uberculex so we're going to ignore Ayame Blackburn, then?
Genuine question: If it's tonal whiplash when Sonic becomes Death Stranding, why is it okay for Indie games like Cave Story, Hollow Night and Binding of Isaac? They have cute, wide-eyed marketable characters but all of them have stories about mass genocide and an oppressive organized religion.
I think its not the serious story that clashes with Sonic, but the hyper realistic environment coupled with a very much cartoony character. All of those games you mentioned have a very consistent art style that meshes both the characters and the world. Take something like Kingdom Hearts, which mashes together Final Fantasy and Disney. It works because they didn't just take two separate things and slap them together, they altered the look so that everything feels like it actually exists in the same world.
Meanwhile, Sonic Frontiers feels like I'm watching one of those mod videos where someone swapped out Spiderman's game model with Kermit the frog and now he's swinging around New York beating people up. Its so incredibly out of place.
Because in that case it wasn't the story but the environment, placing a cartoony, fully clean and shiny 3d model in a gritty world doesn't work on its own, it needs lots of changes to fit well into the art style.
Likely the fact that abstract character designs are favorably received in 2D, but often look jarring and uncanny (uncanny valley) when rendered as a SMOOTH 3D model.
Animated characters haven't worked well in 3D in general. Even cartoons that use 3D models will often draw on top of the 3D scene at times to make it feel better.
@@lunarazure9969 More than that, but Sora exists as a midpoint between the Disney and Final Fantasy aesthetics. He has big shoes and red shorts, plus spiky hair and zips for days. He doesn't look out of place among either groups.
Then you have the Pirates of the Caribbean world that tried to be photo-realistic and just became a bit... Off. Scenes directly taken from the movie with Goofy in the background can be a good example.
Despite the artstyle being 'cute', the tone still remains somber mostly throughout. Cavestory and Hollowknight might have moments of levity but they are both very isolated and mellow in tone and never pretend to be anything else.
Sonic is a cartoon character who says one liners and eats chilidogs... but has games that have to deal with like, police brutality?
Sonic is for kids in their tweens and early teens; it was literally always intended to be 'edgier' than Mario unless you include the very early concept stages before Sega of America said "this won't sell very well if Sonic is a little child, add some 90s attitude". And what did Japan have in the early 90s to draw from? Dragon Ball. Since the Megadrive Sonic's been Dragon Ball with rubberhose characters. The "Sonic isn't Attack on Titan" comment from the Frontier review stood out to me because both that and DBZ are aimed at the same audience.
I guess I’m one of the ones he can’t get through to with this one, because things like cartoony characters in gritty realistic settings, or returning to funny banter after combat, never pulls me out of an experience they way Yahtzee’s been saying it does for him for years. I suppose in the end it all comes down to how much you’re willing to suspend your disbelief at any given moment, and since Yhatzee is a narrative-first kind of guy always, his suspension of disbelief tends to be pretty low on average. Meanwhile I also enjoy a good story in a game, but am willing to forgive a less than 100% consistent tone if it means I get a good gameplay experience out of it.
Now, there are in fact ways to tell more serious stories with more cartoonishly-designed characters. In fact the style can often serve as an ironic backdrop. The only challenge is that it has to stay _consistent._ It has to maintain that idealogical clash or else it’ll just come across as jarring.
The art style I think is what makes Yahtzee have so much of a problem with Sonic Frontiers, and as someone who binged the game to completion, I have to agree with him.
The realistic environments do not fit with the character designs and all of the gameplay items like rings and boosters and springs. Had Sega simply simply chosen a perhaps more shader-oriented or thematic art-style for the the environments I think a lot of people wouldn’t have as much of an issue with the game’s tone.
Honestly since I grew up with Sonic Adventure 1 which took a more realistic approach that could be possible on the Dreamcast, even taking textures from real life locations. I'm honestly not really too fussed with the realistic design of Frontiers.
Honestly my biggest problem is the rails floating everywhere along with the platforms ; I just wish they looked like they were actually part of the land. Like say the rails could ride out of the ground as part of a wall or bridge.
@@sketchsskotch1073 That's probably the other reason a lot of people dislike Frontiers look. Don't have a clue how Sega would be able to fix it though as making sure everything is properly supported on the ground would probably quadruple the workload.
@@hyperon_ion9423 Well most architecture is repeated. Just make a bridge model, with some variants for height. The bridge model can go underneath the rails and can be repeated. Everytime a rail appears, just play the animation of the bridge rising out of the ground.
It would also add some slight difficulty to the later game since as more rails appear; the ground would become more cluttered with the supports that hold up the bridges. And if you want, you could make the supports have the same running walls as the towers, which gives a secondary way to get up to the rails. While also giving a way to place secondary platforming challenges around the supports for more exploration and game time.
I feel with Sonic, it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. I get it, cartoon hedgehog, "gotta go fast" etc. However, if it were to stay a little kids game, it would be ridiculed for not branching out and trying something new. If it does, you get the first half of this video! Side note, kinda funny how Yahtzee brought up This War of Mine as an example of keeping the tone consistent with gameplay, yet said himself that the characters aren't allowed to feel sad when the most morally upstanding person of the group robs an old man for food. :/
2:15 It's because Mario never had much in the way of story (Mario Sunshine and spinoffs aside). Sonic had the Sonic Adventure duology, which became both the first major split in the fandom and something that wound up setting expectations far too high. Even earlier on, there was also the Archie Comics. In which aside from Penders' writing which got hilariously dark at times, there was some genuinely good stuff but they're comics. So naturally, it was more along the lines of Sonic SatAM, which aired a year after the comics started (even though apparently the comics are spun off of Sonic SatAM and not the other way around) that set the expectations. A good example of how sky high expectations are is how people legitimately think Sonic has a timeline that goes back to the first 16-bit game (and excludes the 8-bit games as spinoffs even though I doubt that was the intention, you can find an early prototype of Mecha Sonic in 8-Bit Sonic 2 before the other unpainted model in 16-Bit Sonic 2 and the melody for You Can Do Anything also debuted in the 8-bit Sonic 2's Green Hills Zone) even though there's only ever the loosest sense of continuity. People know Mario games are separate, even when some of them occasionally reference each other.
I think tonal shifts can be done well. Comic relief (which I believe is what they're going for with Mimir in GoW:R) can be a wonderful thing! But whether it's funny or annoying or distasteful will be up to the individual. I liked it, but I'm easy to please, make an attempt and I'll probably laugh.
Which make seriously hit harder when the comic relief is being serious.
@@starmaker75 But that is the catch, though; you _must_ know when to quit clowning around in order for serious moments to have any impact. Comedy is a good tension breaker, but when you're telling a story, building and holding tension is often a _good_ thing, and injecting badly-timed snark or slapstick into the moment will ruin that.
Agree, the balance can be hard to do.
Game that think do this well is Undertale and deltarune, where there alot of goofy moments, but when comes to seriously moment is gives it the space and time for the serious moments to played. Many video games just don’t let the serious moments play out.
Mimir's a pretty well written comic relief character, since comic relief isnt the only thing he does. Besides, most of his stories help flesh out the world they're in, and the haggis story hints at him coming from Celtic mythos.
The idea of combat encounters generally ending with all of your opponents alive would allow, for a better sense of scale, because no longer is your enemy, employing thousands of morons with the life perseveration skills of a sack of potatoes, but a small group of gits , who can be characterised and given actual reasons, to hunt down the protagonist, since they keep getting one over on them, and would give a logical progression of stakes as they become more and more angry or scared by the fact that you keep kicking the snot out of them.
I'm reminded of the parts in the first two Dead Space games in which exposition might be delivered not during the high-octane violence, but while Isaac was fixing part of the ship because it was broken and he was an engineer. Conversations tended not to be light-hearted, Dead Space allegedly being a horror franchise, but that seems like the kind of thing characters could be talking over instead of grisly murder.
I know that Yahtzee could care less about Superhero comics but that's part of why I'm much more immunized to things that might seem like huge swings in tone. Batman can be over here brooding and hating life for as long as he likes but I still remember that the man put a german shepard in a mask and cape. And that that same dog has been played totally straight for actual drama! What's insane and absurd to one person might not be so for another.
Oddly enough, superhero stuff like that does the exact opposite for me. I go see a new Batman movie that's got the grittiest, grimiest, gotham-is-the-absolute-worst-place-to-live vibe, and I just think "This really clashes with the old batman that kept a shark repellent batspray in his back pocket." The tone shifts between different writer's versions of the same character makes it feel like they aren't even the same character a lot of the time.
@@lunarazure9969 you'd probably enjoy batman brave and the bold then
You are getting this the other way... Batman did nothing of this... his writers did... not respecting the tone set by the previous writers. Batman is not a product of a single writer, you can still say it has bad tone shifts from writer to writer thought. So, yeah, you are not immunized, you are just ignoring the facts.
I thought Ace was a Great Dane
@@lunarazure9969 Well yeah, it's a different take and it's gonna result is much more different stories. Honestly, I've never had trouble enjoying both, because I have an easy time focusing on solely on what current story I'm experiencing is doing and actually give it a chance.
Sonic example aside, something cartoon looking can definitely have a serious tone, if it remains consistent with that serious tone and uses downtime light hearted moments in the appropriated time, then I see no problem with something cartoonish or otherwise "not serious looking" having a serious tone.
There’s plenty of stuff that looks cartoony but can have a more serious tone. The original FF7 looks like a bunch of action figures but is far more compelling and better written than what came afterwards in that series. FF9 is the same.
I can’t take Sonic seriously in a gritty story because he’s so fundamentally a corny character in a FernGully-esque plot. He works best in a more lighthearted atmosphere and trying to give him Silent Hill bleakness doesn’t work.
@@li-limandragon9287 Well, just because you can't doesn't mean others shouldn't get stories they enjoy. Why deprive others just because you don't like it?
Yup, I agree. Characters could literally be drawn as basic flat circles & squares for all I care - how the characters physically look is hardly a factor in a story's tone for me.
A story being fictional alone is enough to suspend my disbelief, and it's because I consider that characters might only look "goofy" to us because their appearance doesn't fit what we'd expect in _our_ reality. The thing about fiction though is that _our_ reality doesn't exist to these characters - what _we_ consider to look "normal" or "goofy" is irrelevant. _Their_ reality could make them appear like anything, and from _their_ perspective, how they look is just normal.
I'd say the main problem with Sonic's tone is just the fact that it's wildly inconsistent and keeps shooting back-and-fourth between the extreme ends of "goofy" and "serious" all throughout the franchise. If all the games/other media since the beginning had the same consistent tone - either "goofy" or "serious" - there would be no debate on what its tone "should" be, because it would've been well established by this point already.
The writing of course plays a huge part. Bad writing is still bad writing regardless of tone.
@@genyakozlov1316I don’t want to deprive others of it at all. But older gamers hating Sonic for being more kid friendly and not being tempered to to their expectations is just so dumb.
So, I've been thinking about this.
Sonic is either the best example, or the worst. Because it has had this tone discrepancy from day 1.
To give the most direct reason, Sonic got two cartoons at once to start off non-game media. One was a lighthearted and insane roadrunner cartoon knockoff, and the other was the grim tale of freedom fighters in a dystopic battle against a madman who did horrible things to their world.
... these aired in the same time period.
I don't think you can name a time period in Sonic the Hedgehog's history where there wasn't this exact tone situation.
Both of which were non-canon and had ZERO input from the actual game's developers. The game universe has always been that Sonic's world is a pseudo Earth ala that of Dragon Ball series where humans and anthropomorphic creatures co-exist. May as well be comparing completely different IP's since the American branch of SEGA changed a lot to the point the culture, style and energy of the game series was lost.
@@zocialix Chilli dogs from those cartoons are now canon, and so is the name Robotnik, and you can't tell me Orbot and Cubot aren't inspired by Scratch and Grounder.
@@genyakozlov1316 Actually no they're obviously inspired by Decoe and Boecoe from Sonic X; a Shounen anime. Also they'd called him Robotnik in the games since Sonic 1.
Folding Ideas had a fascinating video on Ludonarrative Dissonance, whereby he evaluates the narrative of games and the resulting tension that arises from how the game is actually played. GoW "wants" you to think kratos is a less vicious and cruel person, but it also "wants" you to mass murder every troll in ridiculously gory ways. I don't have an issue with either aspect of that, but their irreconcilability is a valuable point of game critique.
It seems like people dont understand that fiction is, well, fiction and by the standards of the work this person is less vicious. I mean murdering 100 trolls is less bad than murdering human beings. Its also something that has happened in fiction forever. A good example is the Bond films, we’re meant to think of Moore as a lighthearted old stud and not a cold-hearted murderer. If you realize analyze him its ridiculous but thats concessions we have to make to enjoy any work of fiction. Because its not real
@maydaymemer it's not an issue of "fiction is fiction" but that the "internal logic of x fiction is funky and confusing." It's an instrument of criticism, not an attribute of the thing. We can disagree on whether we "like" a thing, but instruments like framing, metaphor, and ludonarrative dissonance give people a shared vocabulary for a how a piece affected them.
@maydaymemer and I think that's called "suspension of disbelief." Bond movies do it well because they frequently do have an "internal logic" or "flow" to them. Without it, stories feel choppy and off-putting. No decent criticism of art or media evaluates it on the basis of how "realistic" it is but on how well it does the thing it set out to do (did it "thrill," "shock," "terrify," or "inspire?") Bond movies (at least the good ones) convince us of Bond's fundamental goodness and his masculinity because they demonstrate and reinforce it throughout. Bad Bond films (Quantum of Solace lol) don't do that, and thus fail at the thing they set out to do.
Thing is, in GOW 4 and 5 Kratos is _Immensely_ less brutal that the old games. His moves in combat are part of the evidence he has grown.
@KJJ Idk about that; the werewolf execution and dragon kill is pretty heinous
Sonic is a particularly interesting situation to me; a silly looking character design who has engaging stories with, for example, Sonic Adventure 2. That and Shadow the Hedgehog *were* my introductions to the series, and I never really understood why x character design might not be suited for x tone; for me, any character design *can* fit whatever tone if the story is good and the characters are true to themselves. Sonic Frontiers brought in one of the biggest writers for the comics for Frontiers, who has been riding the train of "take Sonic fairly seriously" for a long time, and I quite appreciate that idea personally.
Of course, one of the very first games I played at all was Super Smash Bros. Melee, so by this point, I'm completely desensitized from the idea that characters need to fit in to a consistent visual style to belong in the same setting...
It doesn’t help that animated show and graphic novel(especially more underground and indie one) do this “juxtaposition” a lot
You can also argue that the serious story was clumsily executed in the sonic games, which only further contributed to crippling the foundation of Sonic's credibility as a serious drama. I can't recall any particularly good writing in Sonic games, I played Sonic Adventure 2.
Shadows biggest character moment is the wheelization he has been doing the exact opposite of what he was supposed to do for the person who is the closest thing to a motivation he has and then thinking oh shit better go fix that. Sonic adventure 2 story isn't good it's charming and I won't say I don't have fondness for it but it's total ass
@@addex1236 That's definitely your opinion, I and many others loved Sonic Adventure 2.
@@prufan I loved still I'm still fond of it but Im not a child so I don't let nostalgia tell me an objectively poor story is good
At the risk of declaring myself an "adult Sonic fan," I actually don't agree that Sonic can't have a marginally more mature tone than Mario. The series has always had an undertone of the clash between nature and industry, so it's not like it's foreign to the series to cover more mature concepts.
Plus as someone who loved Sonic Adventure 2 as a child (I was 10 when I played that game), the childish maturity of Sonic always appealed to me
Counterpoint: You can have cartoony characters do serious things. But Sonic really straddles that line hard as they in universe have a character who was gunned down by the military in cold blood… and that person was a literal child. I’m not saying you can’t be serious but Jesus Christ Sonic Team you didn’t have to use Sonic characters to make this narrative.
Sonic Frontiers is better in terms of tone, but the visual language is probably the biggest offender of tone. The realistic environment clashes a bit hard with Sonic in my opinion.
@@BrickBreakerXX Agreed, as much people want serious Sonic stories he simply isn’t built for it. Goku is a goofy guy but you can easily fit him in both silly and serious (characters getting ripped apart) stories because that’s the way his world is built.
There’s plenty games out like Zelda or Metal Gear that are allowed to tell serious stories, expecting it from Sonic is often nonsensical.
@@li-limandragon9287 Not really. Thinking sonic can’t ever be serious is nonsensical.
@@digimonlover1632Look design aside the dude has the personality of Bart Simpsons and quips like a eighth grader, the SatAM cartoon and comics make him more serious yes but the latter often went too far. Ken Penders is not a role model of writing.
Older fans just need to accept while Sonic can work in more serious stories, they shouldn’t be the norm for a character still aimed at children.
Literal tone policing
Yahtzee used to complain about "dad games" games that were too serious, and boring. Now he is slowly becoming his dad lol.
I heavily disagree with the sentiment that just because it looks "cartoony" or "for the kids", they have to stay in their lane and not branch out into other alternative modes of storytelling. As someone who grew up with adult cartoons, shonen anime and even animated colorful movies that dabble into adult themes, (like "the fantastic Mr fox") it is possible to have these adult themes and situations in so called "cartoony" shows, movies and games without being tonally jarring.
The problem with sonic is that it doesn't know what it really wants to be. It tries to be kid-friendly but still wants to have a darker tone. It both wants to introduce new kids into the fold while also wanting to retain it's elder fanbase. For Sega, they need to choose only ONE aspect to go to. They either go full adult themes like Batman, or they go full kid friendly like Mario. Sega can't have both.
Your intuition about Shadow the Hedgehog (the character more than the game) being "patient zero" for Sonic's tonal inconsistency is spot-on. It's a big part of why SA2 was so love-it-or-hate-it among fans. Some of us appreciated that the series was striving to grow up with us (a notion that was summarily abandoned in the very next game [and then returned to with vigor in the one after that, you see the issue]), while for others, it felt more like a betrayal of what they *liked* about Sonic. The flamewar has raged ever since.
The only good thing about Adventure 2 is SnapCube’s dub of it “HE PISSED ON MY FUCKING WIFE”.
@@li-limandragon9287 chao garden?
So does that make Sonic Adventure 2 patient zero then? Shadow’s more mature story and popularity from that game did produce his terrible game afterwards after all. Then again the first Sonic Adventure had a god flood a whole city causing extensive destruction but also had a pink hedgehog chasing a blue one because “he’s so dreamy” and a big dumb purple cat that loves fishing chasing after a frog. Sonic is a case that his design is both iconic but removed from the storytelling they want to make with him. However when one alternative is the original Sonic design for the movies it almost makes me feel the tonal dissonance is the least of the franchise’s worries.
@@li-limandragon9287 You understand Snap Cube non-ironically actually likes that game and how the story in addition to characters are handled; she makes those videos for fun, not cause she doesn't like those games.
I’m pretty sure SA2 was well liked and not mixed.
SA2 was particularly dark in tone but it worked for what its trying to do (Shadow the Hedgehog much less so). Just because you can't get past "cartoon blue hedgehog" tells me you've probably never seen a single Don Bluth film. It's a simple matter of execution of presentation. For example the ending of SA2 is suitably somber in tone witth characters reflecting on what just happened but the ending of SA1 where Station Square is completely flooded and Tails goes "Alls well that ends well, eh Sonic?" is a gaffe to be sure.
“That’s why you shouldn’t remake Children of Men with Clive Owen’s character recast as Mickey Mouse”
strongly disagree, I’d get Disney+ just to watch that
thinking about that thing at the end where he talks about players not sitting still or playing along in cutscenes im reminded of dialogue options usually in the early parts of some rpg's ive played where they say something along the lines of "will you agree to save the world/participate in the story?" and youre given the option to just say no and they get all upset about it.
Think in that case if possible the player should be allowed to go about doing what they want, npc disapproval or not. Just that the main story eventually comes back to as Yahtzee once put it "make it [the players] problem"
Been enjoying these talks very much. Yahtzee dropping facts. As always, videos are well structured and on point! Love this.
One of the biggest tonal disconnects I've ever experienced was in the film The King's Man. At the end (spoilers), the villain causes all people around the world to go into a homicidal rage. Mothers are killing babies. Caretakers are murdering senior citizens. Any gathering of people becomes a bloodbath. Every moment of delay means thousands of brutal murders. Yet the main character continues to casually stroll through the villain's lair making quips like it's a regular Sunday afternoon. It was such a jarring experience that it completely ruined the franchise for me.
That was Kingsman. The King's Man was the prequel. Was very confused when I first read this.
And the whole bit about getting anal from an imprisoned princess during the middle of that segment....
@@silvermoon5583 I was going to say, the over the top violence set the tone for more over the top violence to the second half of Freebird. The tonal chaos was the intent. It wasn't the movie forgetting what it wanted to do, it was the movie doing exactly what it wanted to do.
Ah, another good vid in the shelf before the year ends. Good on ya, yahtz.
The little teabag animation in this one is possibly my new favorite Yahtzee gag. At least for this series. Hard to beat "Let's all laugh at an industry..." for Lifetime Achievement Award in the ZP space, but over here in EP, the teabag gag reigns supreme. At least for now.
I'm sorry but how is Sonic any more ridiculous than most superheros and comicbook characters? Like, Batman in concept is quite ridiculous, but most people prefer him to deal with more serious stories, even though back in the day his stories weren't as grim and dark as they are now. A lot of comicbook characters look stupid and cartoony as heck, but they exist alongside more realistic characters in not so fantastical settings.
Personally, I prefer a more colorful, stylised environment not just in Sonic but in general, but that doesn't mean that Sonic should be limited to that. I would hate it if it became a trend with his games, but the way I see it it's probably a one off. Sonic IS supposed to look out of place in Frontiers. In Sonic 06, they tried to make everything look realistic. They changed Eggman's design. The humans that inhabited the world looked wierdly realistic (and frankly ugly). But in this game, it's just the environment. The characters look as cartoony as ever. The new character, Sage, is stylised as well even though she was created with this environment in mind. You can say that it lacks consistency, but I like to ask the question why did they do it? And the answer can be something that has to do with the technicalities of the game's development, but most people judge the final product not the process and path that leads to its creation. I wouldn't care about that sort of explanation, because narratively it is justified. Sonic doesn't belong to the Starfall islands. The islands are hostile towards him. His friends literally can't physically be there. They could've made an area which looks mysterious and other worldly and still make it look cartoony, however, It would have lost the visual cues that Sonic is an outsider who should leave immediately. I understand why you might not like the way the game looks, but that doesn't mean that those who see any value in it are just a bunch of clueless fans.
You hit the nail on the head perfectly.
The Sonic segment I find the most interesting I think. When you talk to Sonic fans about what they want from a new Sonic game, and you move past the fiery, blood soaked battlefields of the gameplay debate, most Sonic fans seem to look towards the Adventure games for their tone, and I'm generally inclined to agree. This is interesting because at first glance, I'd say that those games are closer to the tone Yahtzee hates for Sonic more than it skews Mario G Rated adventure. So why?
To my mind, I think the difference lies in how far it goes. Sonic fighting the primordial water spirit imprisoned by a civ of echidnas, or blasting into space to fight a lizard attached to a space station hits a little different because it has more character. Station Square, Mystic Ruins, Pumpkin Hill, the places you go for the reasons you go there still feel colorful and out there enough. Despite Sonic Frontiers going with something a little less tonally off beat this time (after Sonic Forces's whole war) and genuinely writing all the characters alot better (in that they aren't quite as FUCKING ANNOYING as theyve been since like, post Unleashed, and they acknowledge the continuity, perhaps even to the point of excess for some), the nature of the adventure is compounded by some truly drab environmental design.
Sonic is a toon. He thrives in colorful excess and imaginative set pieces, and those things don't need to be divorced from a good story with some nice emotional beats. Its why so many people like the boss fights despite their annoying gameplay. Sonic is fast, the energy is high, and the soundtrack is absolutely ripping fucking ass trying to hype you up (your mileage my vary).
And truthfully, sometimes tonal dissonance can make for a more interesting experience. I should think the most blatantly obvious indicator of that would be Conker's Bad Fur Day. But, thats also intentional, and specifically baked into the design, whereas Sonic Frontier is a lot more earnest.
while the gameplay arguments surely are fiery, i dont think that it is as unanimous for tone as you say. i think the big thing for tone is its related to the age and what they liked most about sonic (usually meaning when they got into it)
a lot of people in discussions nowadays will say the adventure tone, because they grew up with adventure games, are a little older so the more edgy stuff can appeal to them, but old enough to not want shadow or 06 level edgyness. the more cartoony and playful tone that later games had (some VERY cartoony, most less) would likely appeal to a younger group who grew up with those. maybe their voice is also less loud since there is plenty of semi-recent sonic content fitting that
recency also can play a role in it, there hasnt been an adventure type game in a long time and people want a new one for quite a while
also, all of that mostly applies to 3D sonic. i think for 2D sonic the tone is rather consistent with it being colourful yet believable environments, characters that have distinct characters yet take themselves seriously. and general environmentalist themes
@theayssking
Adventure though has aged like milk, and expecting people to be touched like you were by the plot in light of the jank and voice acting is nigh-impossible. In 1998 I was baby so I can’t look past the flaws in those games.
@@li-limandragon9287 Super Mario 64 aged like milk too and people still play it with that mindset of it being an early 3D game. Just because a game comes from a jankier era of technology doesn't mean it's suddenly bad.
@@LoliconSamalikDude you can’t compare Mario 64 and Adventure, the former looks janky (if you didn’t mainly play the remastered DS remake like I did) but plays fantastically) while the latter plays badly on top of looking and sounding awful.
I seen enough let’s plays and even touched Adventure itself to know it doesn’t hold up at all.
@@li-limandragon9287 i mean i was born in 98 as well, and I enjoyed them on gamecube as a wee lad. My point was more about the tone and handling of the story. Yeah the voice work was shoddy, and the animation was mocapped and weird, but the plot itself was fine. The writing was all fine. It wasn't some art piece, but it got the job done without the incessant babying the modern games liked to do (like Colors or Lost World). They were cartoony and over the top in a good for all ages way instead of a boring, bland, 'entertained by jingling keys' way. Adventure has aged for sure, but the story itself ignoring the voice direction and animation was good.
Put another way, you couldn't pay me to sit and watch/read an adaptation of Sonic Colors or Lost World that wasnt HEAVILY altered. I could be convinced to watch a faithful adaptation of SA 1 or 2's stories.
This is kinda like the early comics industry. In the mid to late 30’s a lot of people who wanted to write “the great American novel” wound up in comics to pay the bills. that works for the comics industry because they have written stories. But I think a lot of people who wanted to write movies got into the game industry to pay the bills. The writers kept all their movie writing sensibilities and so they write with no regards to game play. That’s why you have Lara croft in TR2013 crying her eyes out and at the same time gunning down 100 people. The writers will simply throw a fit if you tell them to cool it with the marvel quips
The image at 2:55 and the statement “well that should liven up the comment section” made me laugh so hard
Yahtzee’s Scottish accent attempt has sent me it’s hilarious
Point right at the end really got me going and is something I'm very glad got highlighted: Many players will feel more immersed like in Half Life 2 if you get to choose how you involve yourself and where within the dialogue that is currently happening. I always did appreciate often things like when dialogue happens about proceeding there is usually a circle formed and there is a natural gap implied for you to stand there. Looking back I could've just started running around like a maniac as Yahtz mentioned, but I've also always been prepared to be a good sport without having to be put into it. Never had to be told to, I just did.
4:20 GTA always does mission-travel-dialogue pacing so well, like it’s timed to the second.
Your criticism of god of war perfectly fits with the idea that lots of people have that it's a movie trying to be a game.
The challenge with setting and evaluating Tone is that to a substantial extent it depends on subjective associations people bring for various aspects of a work. People _will_ inevitably bring different associations and therefore make different judgements on the perceived tone.
While I wholly agree that the inclusion of Sonic in anything does make it _harder_ for _me_ to take it seriously, I recognise that this is based on my personal perceptions of Sonic as a generally un-serious character, thereby creating tonal inconsistency. I wholly disagree though that Sonic inherently _cannot_ ever be serious simply because his character design is "cartoony". Imagine trying to tell a comicbook fan or anime fan that their medium is inherently relegated to silliness or childishness purely because it's animated and stylized instead of photoreal. Imagine trying to say that games can't be serious because "they're games". If the long trail of evolving biases and perceptions over the history of entertainment media and culture doesn't illustrate that point, I don't know what to tell you.
Perceived tonal inconsistency is absolutely a barrier in all media, but it stems from differences in the references, mindsets, and perceptions between the authors and the audience. To deliver an intended experience to maximum effect, the author has to some extent both predict and mold the perceptions and reactions of the audience. Recognising that Sonic isn't exactly a great anchor for a somber tone for many people doesn't make the task impossible, it just raises the bar for the author to use the other tools at their disposal to deliver that experience and evolve the audience's associations with, and perception of, the character. I don't personally think Frontiers completely succeeds in that regard (or a number of others), and I don't really expect that any Sonic game ever will without some significant commitment to the bit, but it sounds like it worked well enough for a more narrow audience.
With God of War, the challenge of tonal consistency is certainly less about associations with the character than the associations with the moment-to-moment events. If your only associations with bloody violence are in games that splatter about gore like confetti, then I can appreciate the juxtaposition of one-liners and dismemberment might not bother you. If you have any personal sentiments around taking violence more seriously though then yes, it can become an issue. I've never been able to enjoy COD the way some of my friends do because I can't get over how cavalier it is around committing and glorifying war crimes alongside it's general pandering to a desire to hurt/dominate someone else (however briefly). Does anyone actually get hurt from dumping high-powered ammunition into another person in a game and then robbing their corpse? Not directly, but the tacit endorsement and glorification of the activity as "cool" in a "realistic" environment (COD is as much of a "cartoon" as Sonic as far as I'm concerned), coupled with the clear thoughtlessness in which much of the audience engages in it, really makes me reluctant to support the franchise in any way. With God of War at least it just seems to be undermining the hit of it's intended emotional impact.
A actual genius in the You Tube comments. Many thanks for bringing in the philosophy of subjective interpretation when it comes to how people value different kinds of art.
Yes often impossible for comic and anime fans to accept their favourite characters are just cartoons at the end of the day, but at the same time Sonic from his outset has been Veggie Tales level lighthearted. You can’t blame people (especially people who weren’t indoctrinated by the Archie comics and SatAM cartoon) to take issue with little girls getting gunned down, Sonic getting tortured and Satan showing up in the games. Hell it only becomes laughable edgy to some people (me).
I think serious Sonic have the right to exist but definitely shouldn’t be the expected norm.
@@li-limandragon9287 Veggie Tales? WTF?!?! Yes, because Sonic is TOTALLY a christian level wholesome character like Mario. Yup.
Let's forget SEGA USA's marketing that was part of a cultural movement to spite fake wholesome values....
@@LoliconSamalikThe Christians love Sonic dude, look at Sonichu.
I dunno the idea that one type of design can only have one type of tone is bizarre, I don't know if you ever seen those art images of Pokemon by Asteroid, but it's a great example of something familiar like Pokemon designs instill a totally different sense of feel and tone depending on the enviroment they're placed in, done in a way that feel's fresh and exciting as if a whole new lawyer of depth has been added into something familiar
This does touch on another issue that's come up as games become more realistic; there are a limited number of ways one can justify a gaming protagonist killing tens of thousands of enemy goons as regularly as a day job, particularly if said goons are human. You can create a setting where such action is justified, such as 'they're Nazis who have taken over the world' and such a thing mandates a very dark tone in both world and setting.
God of War had Kratos begin as a murderous Spartan out for revenge, without a care how many other warriors he had to kill, but now that he's started to care again and trying to avoid backsliding back into bloody rage, the casual tone of his two partners caused some issues. Maybe if he was the one constantly trying to remind them of the gravity of their situation, but he'd end up sounding like a broken record before long.
I think the Sonic Frontiers example is more of an aesthetic clash than a tonal one. Sonic 2006 had the same problem. That kiss wouldn’t have been as weird if Elise was also a cartoon animal.
You could also argue that aesthetics and visuals contribute to setting the tone. For Frontiers they chose realistic-looking art which immediately directs the mind to a more grounded and gritty tone.
absolutely this. I think a big part of Frontier’s problem is that the environments aren’t just DRAB, they’ve got realistic-ish textures and weird, low-effort layouts with the tracks and speed boosts and whatnot just scattered around at random, and with the cartoony, low detail characters running around on it it all just feels like a GMod game rather than an official Sonic Team release.
@@AkaiNeko4 I think just putting romance in Sonic is a catalyst for disaster. Sonic should really be like “Eww cooties” because that’s entirely who he is, putting romantic/sexual themes in his stories is just awful as seen with Ken Penders. Sure there’s some stuff in Mario and Zelda that’s horny, but with the former it’s always framed in a goofy way and the latter is high fantasy which is expected to have that stuff.
@@li-limandragon9287 Nah. Romance isn’t inherently bad. That’s a stupid way to think. It’s only bad because when it was done, it was done by bad writers.
@@li-limandragon9287 Sonic is a teenager not a 6 year old.
This is why I love KOTORs story it almost never breaks tone especially in the second one you can tell the writers were trying to write a bleak story the art and the music fits into that NarShadaa is very mechanical and the colours are a mixture of grey and brown with little colour
It's odd that marvel movies suffer from the exact same tone issues as these games.
I'd say it's synchronicity in the entrainment industry
not at the same level
marvel movies try to be complex movies and ultra childish commercial movies at the same time overloading bad comedic jokes and scenes after extremely serious movies
but god of war doesn't suffer from that, sonic didn't at least in frontiers and not even in the movies.
God of War feels exactly like a recent Marvel movie with the ceaseless banter.
@@idiotledumbcrates9108 No it fucking doesnt. Banter is rather sporadic, and most importantly none of the serious scenes are ruined by characters quipping.
@@NECROMAGICIAN666 Iron Man 1 and Winter Soldier are serious and good Thor Raganrok is fun and wild. It’s the stuff that should be more serious like Black Widow that undercuts itself with too many jokes.
I've found in the case of VR Ghost Trains like Half-Life Alyx and Westworld Awakening, acting along as a bit of micro roleplay actually made the experience miles better for me than just playing the game like I'm LARPing as Slimer, which is to say a ghost who ruins things consequence free). Meeting the game where it is actively rewards tonal consistency and makes you more forgiving of inconsistency because after all, you were the one juggling mugs and bottles.
For the Sonic thing, I 100% get what you're saying, and it's valid--in so far as it's a personal taste thing.
If you grew up with shows like the SatAM sonic cartoon, which honestly is the single best example of Sonic having a darker tone, stuff like Frontiers feels less jarring.
Having said that, Frontiers doesn't do it *particularly* well. But Sonic is not inherently incompatible with darker vibes, unless your narrative palette just isn't flexible enough for it.
I didn’t grow up Sonic SatAM or the comics and much prefer stuff like Lost World and Mania which is firmly lighthearted. I can respect darker tones but they should be the exception not the norm.
I love the Spyro games, namely the original trilogy and don’t expect Dark Souls-esque themes from them, in fact when the games got darker the worse they became.
It’s more fun and interesting for me to see the opposite with a serious and gritty character placed in a more lighthearted setting e.g Snake in Super Smash Bros.
@sonic 1995 Actually an interesting point as Lost World is essentially the argument of Sonic games being tonally inconsistent on steroids.
You have what is essentially a Mario game in terms of ascetics and humour and the plot is about six evil creatures trying to completely drain the world of life and there's a moment where Eggman actually announces his desire to strangle them.
The more "somber" moments of the game were impossible to actually take seriously because everywhere was more colourful than COLOURS was.
This comment is a bunch of hilarious nonsense. Kicks off with the classic "well okay but that's just, like, your opinion man" Opening. Proceeds to reference a saturday morning cartoon which is not the same thing as the topic under discussion (video games). Concedes that the mentioned video game example (Frontiers) is a rather lacklustre attempt at a tonal shift for this character/franchise. Closes by stating that a blue cartoon hedgehog with anime hair and running shoes can totally do dark'n'gritty akshually, and if the reader doesn't agree it's simply due to the "limited flexibility" of their "narrative pallette".
My narrative pallette is flexible enough to easily handle the kind of mental gymnastics that your comment just demanded of it, and I find your argument unconvincing, to put it nicely. :D
@@sixstringedthing It's not mental gymnastics, it's that the supplemental material for sonic has always been pitched at a different tone: One of the older tie in comics goes into how the little animals inside the robots you stomp on live in constant agony and only attack Sonic because Robotnik has promised whoever kills him the sweet relief of death.
Glad I'm not the only weirdo who wiggles my characters heads depending on what's happening
I completely get why "grittier Sonic" would feel baffling to a lot of people. And in fairness, it's usually been done very poorly (see: the Shadow game). But I think Yahtz hits on why there's an audience for it. I loved the characters as a kid, and when I became a teenager, I didn't stop loving the characters, but I was interested in more epic storytelling with higher stakes, so I started writing fanfic with (a teenager's idea of) more adult themes. If you aren't looking at "cartoon mouse in sneakers" as inherently absurd -- and for some of us weirdos, it's no more of a block to dramatic storytelling than "man dressed like bat fighting clown" -- then it's not a tonal issue. But again, I totally get why it might feel that way for some folks.
I guess the question is, why didn't you just go on to something else that was written more for teens for instance rather than Sonic the hedgehog? Growing up with Mario, which I also still like, it's not like I wished Nintendo grew the franchise up lol, I just found some other stuff instead that I found engaging in that way
@@Kriss_ch. OP explains why they felt the need to stick with Sonic - because they already had an established attachment to the characters.
There are certainly other stories out there with more mature themes that are handled far better than Sonic does it, but I think people specifically seek out Sonic because it's familiar, and they want to see those characters they're already interested in grow and evolve, rather than become used to an entirely new cast of characters.
This of course is by no means a defense of Sonic in specific but rather just a broader phenomenon that already occurs with other franchises. People will always prefer what they already know over something completely new, it's why brand power is so important for corporations.
@@Kriss_ch. I mean, it's not like I restricted my entire media consumption to Sonic, hah. But his world was my favorite world to play around in, for whatever reason. And I think there's also something to the idea that Sonic was always supposed to be the slightly "edgier alternative" to Mario. He smirked and waggled his finger, etc. He fought a mad scientist enslaving his friends in body-horror robotic prisons. When fleshed out as a character, he could be reckless and thoughtless, not needing that perfect Mario halo (as Yahtz has pointed out, Mario must always be a perfect nonentity -- Sonic was allowed to have a personality.) There's a reason that his expanded media has often gone to more epic-storytelling places, even going back to 90's cartoons and comics.
Again, I get it. Some people are going to look at Sonic's character design and never be able to take any dramatic story involving him seriously, and that's fine. But some of us are otherwise, as bizarre as that may seem.
Two thoughts:
1. Batman changes significantly to match the tone.
Switching Christian Bale and Adam West would make both of them stick like a sore thumb.
Sonic seems to be pretty consistent.
2. Everyone has been consuming media with something equivalent to sonic in their youth. Yet I think you'd agree that gritty war movie with My Little Pony or Muppets in Tarantino movie would be a massive tonal clash.
It doesn't matter that you grew up with this particular character. It still is what it is.
@@dzmcroy it certainly doesn't help that sonic iz a gold mine uv narrativez to tell.
I men kryps, a lone survivor uv a mass extinction by a water monster evolved from a tiny blue softling with a ball over it's head, a artificial person created by your greatest enemies grandpa and artificial guys alien dad who might as well be a corpse or the devil with no legs who leads a faction uv nudist aliens who can grow body armor, 7 unknown gems that irradiate anything with gold skin and the ability to fly, 1 man who makes robot nations and iz the only employee uv hiz company sometimes, more aliens than you can shake a leaf at, a freak in the middle uv earth whom, when released, disperses his malice in spirit form to destroy morality, and storybooks that drag you into their worlds, sometimes with permission, sometimes by force.
and big the cat, just a guy, just a fisherman, who has no idea uv any uv the greater implications uv his world, and somehow always ends up on the front lines in a front row seat for every disaster, like a large forrest gump.
craazy good animation, felt like yahtzee doing it himself
These last few videos have all reminded me of "The Beginner's Guide", by the same person who did stanley parable. It's about the player's place in a world, but also the creator's place, and to be on either or both sides of that experience. I recommend anybody who enjoys these videos to play that game.
It’s easy to rack up crazy high body counts in some games, and as a 36 year old with morals, it often drives me away these days unless it’s tonally appropriate (e.g. something like a war, a fantasy setting with malicious creatures, etc.). I don’t want to kill a full town’s worth of people (or, y’know, even one person!) every time I pick up a controller, even if they’re the “bad guys.”
I remember when I was younger playing a splinter cell game for the first time on my stepdads xbox. One of the first gameplay moments forced the character to sneak around and kill some dudes, but I was wondering why I was needed to kill them and if there was another way to get around them.
Im glad we’ve circled back to the Jack Thompson school of thought of condemmning people who dont mind killing pixels as not having morals, meanwhile the person doing the condemning couldnt name any victims in the latest collapsed mine disaster
@@maydaymemer4660
Ok, that's pretty disingenuous to say my guy.
Everyone keeps saying that Yahtzee is wrong, and that Sonic can tell a serious story, but I'm not sure they're talking about the same thing. Sonic CAN tell a serious story, nothing preventing that.
But if you try and force Sonic, a cutesy mascot character who is a bright blue hedgehog in bright red sneakers, to fight Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos, a visceral and grotesque body-horror monster from Bloodborne, there is an almost insurmountable tonal clash in aesthetic. Same thing if you try and force Sonic into Death Stranding.
"But," cry the people, "Kirby has been in post-apocalyptic settings too!" Yeah, have you looked at Kirby and the Forgotten Land? It's bright and pastel coloured and looks like an environment Kirby could belong in. If you tried and dump Kirby into Washington, circa Fallout 3, it would clash just as poorly.
Tonal consistency between a character's design and their environment's design is a thing, is the summary of this rant, I guess.
The thing is Sonic was always closer to DBZ than a cutesy mascot, he literally turns Super Saiyan and his friends are basically Shounen tropes. Maybe he doesntt fit against a Bloodborne boss but he would fit against Freeza or Cell or a One Piece villain to give you an idea.Frontiers literally used Demon Slayer and Evangelion as refferences, its as anime as it gets.
Literal years later and this war of mine gets its deserved praise.
Oddly I'm kind of on the opposite side of this, I think intentional tonal clash is something that a lot of games don't take as much advantage of even though it would make a lot of them more three dimensional. Hotline Miami 2: Wrong Number is one of the few examples that do a good job of this. Sections of the players murderous zeal intercut with the realizations and ramifications of what they are actually doing.
for example, the Manny Pardo's story goes quickly between stupidly heroic and scarily psychopathically self centered. He clears a shopping mall of goons in one scene and then egomaniacally removes witnesses in another. This works well into the overarching story.
I think if the game goes for it, it usually works.
That's not a tonal clash.
Well probably good story, because is sort of real story.
Tonal shift is fine. Some of the most interesting stories (and real life people) have that.
The problem is not so much the tonal shift, or characters not being one dimensional caricatures.
It's rather character casually acting out of character, especially if game play demands it, and then slipping back in character.