I’m over 80, I’ve been woodworking since the mid 50’s, I’ve never made a sliding dovetail, yet! But I’m thinking, maybe create a project that needs one, that seems like a whole lot of fun. With or without the special tools, cause I’ve got time and don’t need to break any records. Thanks for the inspiration to get out to the workshop.
I've always imagined it to be a fun weekend if I, a mid-20's kid with retirement-style hobbies, met with an older gentlemen to share skills and build a need woodworking project together!
These saws (Gratsäge in German) are not so common, it looks like. ECE has one in their catalog (No. 255.00) but I checked a few online shops in Germany that even list this saw, and none of them have it in stock. However, it is pretty simple to make one yourself. It's basically just a wooden handle with a slot for a saw blade. Could use e.g. a frame saw blade. But I will try to just use a regular dozuki.
Excellent video. I have the same dovetail plane as you. Seeing it in use by a Pro shows me slot. I like the saw. I didn't know about that tool. I like the fact it has the angle and adjustment. Thanks Bob.
I was just thinking about how to do this because I'm making a chair with a stopped sliding dovetail, and I was thinking I would want a saw that cuts on the pull. Mainly because it seems like it'd be easier to cut near the stop and avoid overshooting, and also because using a pull stroke means the sawdust has somewhere to go. That's my guess why the sliding dovetail saw cuts on the pull. I bet you don't even need the relief auger cut with that saw, not that it's much extra work and probably does still make the sawing go a bit faster. I always appreciate your videos, thanks!
i refiled mine (self build, 5tpi) to about 15-20° rake, no fleam and removed most of the set. Ever since this thing eats through wood, and runs SMOOTH.
Derek Cohen made a specialized plane for making the female part of the sliding dovetail. He also shows how to use a Stanley 79 side rabbet plane for the task, with the depth stop customized to the desired dovetail angle.
@@johnschillo4452 Ah, that makes sense. New, Ulmia seems to be noticeably more expensive (in Europe). The differences I found between Ulmia and ECE are: Ulmia has a traditional steel nicker while ECE uses a carbide spur (replacements available from an industrial supply store), Ulmia throws the chips out on the side while ECE throws them out on the top, finally Ulmia sole is angled 17 degrees while ECE is 9.5 degrees. The last difference is likely be the most significance in terms of results produced.
I re-filed the teeth on my saw, doubling the number to 14 tpi. It doesn't take too long and helps a lot. I'm still tempted to just use my tenon saw plus a beveled batten since I don't find that the angles on the dovetail saw are particularly helpful to me for getting the right angle and because I can use the depth of the mortise (for the stopped housing) and my near-side layout line to watch for depth. I like to cut these with just one tail, not two, but I might just be being lazy. That's just how I learned.
The Goddards and Townsends of Newport, R.I. commonly used sliding dovetails to attach the tops of the finest pieces of furniture ever produced in the US. Also, I would swear that that is white oak and not chestnut which is much darker brown in color.
Hey Bob, very cool video yet again! A couple of questions: when would you consider making it a housed sliding dovetail and how it compares to a bare joint in terms of strength? Would you glue a long dovetail or just leave it? Also, if someone doesn't have a dovetailing plane - for a short male piece, say under 6", chiseling works too. Sometimes it could be sawn even, I used a >15ppi gent saw successfully.
Not sure what you mean by “bare joint”? Dado? It’s certainly stronger than a dado in tension. But that can be solved by toenailing the dado on the inside of the case, which is still faster. I will definitely be glueing this joint. The only time I wouldn’t glue the joint is if I want to take the piece apart in the future, or if the two pieces don’t have grain running in the same direction, like say dovetailed battens running across the bottom of a wide table top. In this case I wouldn’t glue so that the table top could expand and contract while the dovetail battens continued to hold things flat. And yes, the dovetail plane is absolutely not required. Roy demonstrates making the joint with just saw and chisel in numerous episodes of The Woodwright’s Shop. But the plane is faster, and really fun to use 😁
@@BobRozaieskiFineWoodworking I mean a sliding dovetail that is cut in a shallow dado - a housed (sliding?) dovetail I believe is the full name. It is often used for letting drawers dividers into a case sides. I was just wondering whether housing would provide any additional strength. A 1/8" deep housing does help concealing a shoulder line that could get gappy if a long horizontal member sags (e.g. a shelf under weight), but it adds quite a bit of effort. Here's an example picture: woodarchivist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/144-Housed-Dovetails-1.jpg
egglyph Ah, yes, now I understand. I’ve never seen those cut for full width sliding dovetails. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, just that I’ve never seen them. Drawer blade dovetails like the ones in your link are typically short, like 1” long or so. The housing is usually there to house the drawer runner and the dovetail just cut at the front 1” or so. I’m sure the housing would add some strength to a full length sliding dovetail. Would add a good deal of additional work and complexity though.
The only time I use a sliding dovtail is for a vertical dividing post between draw frame's. Otherwise it's an almost useless joint that never holds well and weakens the board in your chosen application. Far better to use a very shallow bare faced rule joint and through wedged tenons.
Yes, you can make it not tapered. But a parallel sliding dovetail is extremely finicky to fit. Much more difficult than a tapered joint. Tapering the joint SEEMS like it would be more difficult, but it is actually much more forgiving than a parallel joint.
@@BobRozaieskiFineWoodworking Thank you! Today I started making my own sliding dovetail saw (too ambitious for my skills but I think it's doable) and once I'm done ai will give both versions a shot. Your video has inspired me :)
As far as I know, these sliding dovetails are used in germany also to attach table tops to the feet. Appart from holding the table top firmly, the sliding dovetail stops the table top (or any panel in which it is used) from cupping or warping. What is the american/english alternative to this? A joint that holds wood in place in this manner? I have a couple of projects here at home and would really like to avoid cutting all these sliding dovetails in panels.
Most English and American furniture uses dados instead. But the dado won’t keep the parts together by itself if the glue fails so nails were commonly used in conjunction with the dado. Chests of drawers employed short (~1” long) sliding dovetails at the front of the case to keep the sides from bowing out. They were sometimes used at the back of the case too but more often the back boards were nailed into a rabbet and those boards kept the back of the case from bowing out. Table tops were either pegged, nailed, or screwed down to the base.
Great video. not much people showing how to use these tools on youtube. As for dovetail plane and saw, two website are carrying them, one is dictum and the other is finetool. I'm not sure if they ship outside of Europe. the sliding dovetail is also a commend joint in traditional Chinese furniture. Mostly for stiffening and preventing twist in thin panel ,also in connecting shelf to the side. For stiffening, just like typical frame and panel construction, but with additional cross piece that have tenon on each end which goes into the frame, and is jointed to the panel with sliding dovetail. Here is a video showing it's use in a chest czcams.com/video/-1DnZtu-yoU/video.html
It’s a double edged sword. The larger teeth are more efficient at clearing sawdust, but the saw is much harder to use. It has to be used as a pull saw because the teeth are too aggressive to use with a push stroke. The cut is also very rough and splintery. The splintery wood I used didn’t help matters, but even disregarding the wood I’m not completely satisfied with the way that it works yet. I need to play with the tooth geometry a bit more to try and make it cut a bit sweeter. Right now my 13 PPI backsaw does a bit better job even though it clogs up a bit more.
@@BobRozaieskiFineWoodworking I noticed that when using your backsaw, sometimes the front would go forward too much and over the previously excavated hole - possibly scratching the wood beyond the point where the dovetail stops. Perhaps it is good to clamp a protective square of wood over that area? Or use a Dozuki on the pull stroke in the same way as you were using the specialized dovetail saw. You mentioned the lack of a depth stop on the regular joinery saw. How about, after the cut reaches depth on one side, unclamp the fence, and clamp a strip of wood to the saw itself, to act as a depth stop?
The front of the joint is covered in this instance as the divider is notched over the end of the stopped joint. This hides any errant saw strokes/scratches. As for the depth stop, you can certainly clamp a depth stop to a regular saw to make it work like the dedicated sliding dovetail saw.
I don't understand why the dovetail-saw has such an aggressive cut since its almost always used for crosscutting. I think about exchanging the blade of my dovetail-saw to check if it would be more comfortable to work with blade with smaller teeth....
I still don't understand your reasoning for reducing the thickness of the male part of the sliding dovetail 1/16" on both sides. How does it make fitting or cutting the joint any easier when it simply weakens the finished joint
It doesn’t weaken anything. Both the male and female parts of the joint are tapered, not just the male. Doing so lets the joint slide freely until the last inch or two. Then the joint tightens up along the entire length and locks in nice and tight.
No, it’s only reduced by 1/16” (it’s only tapered on one side). The advantage is a much easier joint to tune and fit. The finished joint is still magnitudes stronger than it needs to be.
"Not a common joint" in British and American furniture?? Really? You need to do your research matey! The earliest example in England dates from the 15th century and was a commonly used joint in furniture for the nobility and church from that time on. It is only with the advent of modern fixing techniques, mass production and the need for low cost furniture that the sliding dovetail has lost favour with manufacturers. However, for custom and high-end pieces, (especially hand made ones), this joint is as popular as ever in Britain.
I’m over 80, I’ve been woodworking since the mid 50’s, I’ve never made a sliding dovetail, yet! But I’m thinking, maybe create a project that needs one, that seems like a whole lot of fun. With or without the special tools, cause I’ve got time and don’t need to break any records. Thanks for the inspiration to get out to the workshop.
I've always imagined it to be a fun weekend if I, a mid-20's kid with retirement-style hobbies, met with an older gentlemen to share skills and build a need woodworking project together!
I just bought an Ulmia sliding dovetail plane. Now I'll order the sliding dovetail saw. This video is perfect. Great tutorial!
These saws (Gratsäge in German) are not so common, it looks like. ECE has one in their catalog (No. 255.00) but I checked a few online shops in Germany that even list this saw, and none of them have it in stock. However, it is pretty simple to make one yourself. It's basically just a wooden handle with a slot for a saw blade. Could use e.g. a frame saw blade.
But I will try to just use a regular dozuki.
Excellent video. I have the same dovetail plane as you. Seeing it in use by a Pro shows me slot. I like the saw. I didn't know about that tool. I like the fact it has the angle and adjustment. Thanks Bob.
Well done Bob, looking forward to the project.
I was just thinking about how to do this because I'm making a chair with a stopped sliding dovetail, and I was thinking I would want a saw that cuts on the pull. Mainly because it seems like it'd be easier to cut near the stop and avoid overshooting, and also because using a pull stroke means the sawdust has somewhere to go. That's my guess why the sliding dovetail saw cuts on the pull. I bet you don't even need the relief auger cut with that saw, not that it's much extra work and probably does still make the sawing go a bit faster.
I always appreciate your videos, thanks!
Really great video 👍🏾
Bob you are a fine craftsman. I really enjoy your videos.
Brilliant ! My favourite ! Cheers Bob!
i refiled mine (self build, 5tpi) to about 15-20° rake, no fleam and removed most of the set. Ever since this thing eats through wood, and runs SMOOTH.
Great hand tools ! Love it.
Will watch tonight !! Thank you !
Going to try this for my next bookcase. Thank you
Derek Cohen made a specialized plane for making the female part of the sliding dovetail. He also shows how to use a Stanley 79 side rabbet plane for the task, with the depth stop customized to the desired dovetail angle.
my ECE sliding dovetail saw arrived today - Ulmia sliding dovetail plane in shipment, thanks for the instruction
May I ask why did you choose the plane from Ulmia rather than one from ECE?
@@GenePavlovsky I found the Ulmia plane on eBay from a seller in Europe. It was new old stock w/ a good price.
@@johnschillo4452 Ah, that makes sense. New, Ulmia seems to be noticeably more expensive (in Europe). The differences I found between Ulmia and ECE are: Ulmia has a traditional steel nicker while ECE uses a carbide spur (replacements available from an industrial supply store), Ulmia throws the chips out on the side while ECE throws them out on the top, finally Ulmia sole is angled 17 degrees while ECE is 9.5 degrees. The last difference is likely be the most significance in terms of results produced.
I re-filed the teeth on my saw, doubling the number to 14 tpi. It doesn't take too long and helps a lot. I'm still tempted to just use my tenon saw plus a beveled batten since I don't find that the angles on the dovetail saw are particularly helpful to me for getting the right angle and because I can use the depth of the mortise (for the stopped housing) and my near-side layout line to watch for depth. I like to cut these with just one tail, not two, but I might just be being lazy. That's just how I learned.
Well done sir!
So cool awesome video
Very nice demo! I have been wondering how this is done. Thanks!
Very nice. Thanks.
The Goddards and Townsends of Newport, R.I. commonly used sliding dovetails to attach the tops of the finest pieces of furniture ever produced in the US. Also, I would swear that that is white oak and not chestnut which is much darker brown in color.
Thanks for sharing that
Very nice work but if I went through all the trouble of making a sliding dovetail, I'd want it to show. Otherwise I'd just use biscuits, LOL
Jou can buy a plane. But fair warnig. Under 180€ you cant get a new one. I'm german and diter schmidt have them.
9:35 important turn to get the knife line on the waste side
Hey Bob, very cool video yet again! A couple of questions: when would you consider making it a housed sliding dovetail and how it compares to a bare joint in terms of strength? Would you glue a long dovetail or just leave it? Also, if someone doesn't have a dovetailing plane - for a short male piece, say under 6", chiseling works too. Sometimes it could be sawn even, I used a >15ppi gent saw successfully.
Not sure what you mean by “bare joint”? Dado? It’s certainly stronger than a dado in tension. But that can be solved by toenailing the dado on the inside of the case, which is still faster. I will definitely be glueing this joint. The only time I wouldn’t glue the joint is if I want to take the piece apart in the future, or if the two pieces don’t have grain running in the same direction, like say dovetailed battens running across the bottom of a wide table top. In this case I wouldn’t glue so that the table top could expand and contract while the dovetail battens continued to hold things flat. And yes, the dovetail plane is absolutely not required. Roy demonstrates making the joint with just saw and chisel in numerous episodes of The Woodwright’s Shop. But the plane is faster, and really fun to use 😁
@@BobRozaieskiFineWoodworking I mean a sliding dovetail that is cut in a shallow dado - a housed (sliding?) dovetail I believe is the full name. It is often used for letting drawers dividers into a case sides. I was just wondering whether housing would provide any additional strength. A 1/8" deep housing does help concealing a shoulder line that could get gappy if a long horizontal member sags (e.g. a shelf under weight), but it adds quite a bit of effort. Here's an example picture: woodarchivist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/144-Housed-Dovetails-1.jpg
egglyph Ah, yes, now I understand. I’ve never seen those cut for full width sliding dovetails. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, just that I’ve never seen them. Drawer blade dovetails like the ones in your link are typically short, like 1” long or so. The housing is usually there to house the drawer runner and the dovetail just cut at the front 1” or so. I’m sure the housing would add some strength to a full length sliding dovetail. Would add a good deal of additional work and complexity though.
The only time I use a sliding dovtail is for a vertical dividing post between draw frame's.
Otherwise it's an almost useless joint that never holds well and weakens the board in your chosen application. Far better to use a very shallow bare faced rule joint and through wedged tenons.
thanks
Thank you for this!
I really wish to start experimenting with sliding dovetails. Would it be ok to not make it tapered?
Yes, you can make it not tapered. But a parallel sliding dovetail is extremely finicky to fit. Much more difficult than a tapered joint. Tapering the joint SEEMS like it would be more difficult, but it is actually much more forgiving than a parallel joint.
@@BobRozaieskiFineWoodworking Thank you! Today I started making my own sliding dovetail saw (too ambitious for my skills but I think it's doable) and once I'm done ai will give both versions a shot. Your video has inspired me :)
In my experience, a parallel sliding dovetail has a lot of friction unless it is very short.
@@TheOlsonOutfit Lots of friction, or it is loose...
Interesting never considered this point. Seems like you could plane the bottom of standard stair saw for dovetails too.
As far as I know, these sliding dovetails are used in germany also to attach table tops to the feet. Appart from holding the table top firmly, the sliding dovetail stops the table top (or any panel in which it is used) from cupping or warping. What is the american/english alternative to this? A joint that holds wood in place in this manner? I have a couple of projects here at home and would really like to avoid cutting all these sliding dovetails in panels.
Most English and American furniture uses dados instead. But the dado won’t keep the parts together by itself if the glue fails so nails were commonly used in conjunction with the dado. Chests of drawers employed short (~1” long) sliding dovetails at the front of the case to keep the sides from bowing out. They were sometimes used at the back of the case too but more often the back boards were nailed into a rabbet and those boards kept the back of the case from bowing out. Table tops were either pegged, nailed, or screwed down to the base.
Great video. not much people showing how to use these tools on youtube. As for dovetail plane and saw, two website are carrying them, one is dictum and the other is finetool. I'm not sure if they ship outside of Europe.
the sliding dovetail is also a commend joint in traditional Chinese furniture. Mostly for stiffening and preventing twist in thin panel ,also in connecting shelf to the side. For stiffening, just like typical frame and panel construction, but with additional cross piece that have tenon on each end which goes into the frame, and is jointed to the panel with sliding dovetail.
Here is a video showing it's use in a chest czcams.com/video/-1DnZtu-yoU/video.html
I gotta make one of those saws.
The larger teeth are a great idea. My ~14 tpi saw clogged up quite a bit making these cuts.
It’s a double edged sword. The larger teeth are more efficient at clearing sawdust, but the saw is much harder to use. It has to be used as a pull saw because the teeth are too aggressive to use with a push stroke. The cut is also very rough and splintery. The splintery wood I used didn’t help matters, but even disregarding the wood I’m not completely satisfied with the way that it works yet. I need to play with the tooth geometry a bit more to try and make it cut a bit sweeter. Right now my 13 PPI backsaw does a bit better job even though it clogs up a bit more.
@@BobRozaieskiFineWoodworking I noticed that when using your backsaw, sometimes the front would go forward too much and over the previously excavated hole - possibly scratching the wood beyond the point where the dovetail stops. Perhaps it is good to clamp a protective square of wood over that area? Or use a Dozuki on the pull stroke in the same way as you were using the specialized dovetail saw. You mentioned the lack of a depth stop on the regular joinery saw. How about, after the cut reaches depth on one side, unclamp the fence, and clamp a strip of wood to the saw itself, to act as a depth stop?
The front of the joint is covered in this instance as the divider is notched over the end of the stopped joint. This hides any errant saw strokes/scratches. As for the depth stop, you can certainly clamp a depth stop to a regular saw to make it work like the dedicated sliding dovetail saw.
Can't you use a router plane to remove the waste in the middle?
Sure but it’s a lot slower than the chisel. Faster to bust it out with a chisel and clean it up with the router plane.
I don't understand why the dovetail-saw has such an aggressive cut since its almost always used for crosscutting. I think about exchanging the blade of my dovetail-saw to check if it would be more comfortable to work with blade with smaller teeth....
I also thought that while watching this video. It looked quite challenging, because the saw tended to grab and move the whole workbench.
Get a saw file and put some negative rake on those teeth. It will make it less aggressive.
$300+ +int ship lol, you CAN find any tool with just the right amount of money.
I still don't understand your reasoning for reducing the thickness of the male part of the sliding dovetail 1/16" on both sides. How does it make fitting or cutting the joint any easier when it simply weakens the finished joint
It doesn’t weaken anything. Both the male and female parts of the joint are tapered, not just the male. Doing so lets the joint slide freely until the last inch or two. Then the joint tightens up along the entire length and locks in nice and tight.
@@BobRozaieskiFineWoodworking You reduce the male part of the joint by an 1/8" in thickness with little apparent advantage
No, it’s only reduced by 1/16” (it’s only tapered on one side). The advantage is a much easier joint to tune and fit. The finished joint is still magnitudes stronger than it needs to be.
"Not a common joint" in British and American furniture?? Really? You need to do your research matey! The earliest example in England dates from the 15th century and was a commonly used joint in furniture for the nobility and church from that time on. It is only with the advent of modern fixing techniques, mass production and the need for low cost furniture that the sliding dovetail has lost favour with manufacturers.
However, for custom and high-end pieces, (especially hand made ones), this joint is as popular as ever in Britain.
Guess you spent 10 grand on fancy hand tools that you only use once makes it fine woodworking.