Charisms: Visions, Tongues, Healing, etc. (w/ Dr. Peter Kreeft)
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In this CZcams audio Dave Nevins and Peter Kreeft discuss supernatural gifts (charisms) that often lie dormant within us.
The transcript is also available on Amazon:
amzn.to/2Coip72
Download an MP3 from iTunes
itunes.apple.com/us/album/cha...
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00:00 - Intro
02:07 - Philosophy of the supernatural
08:22 - Worldwide manifestations
18:36 - Closer to home
21:58 - Intellect and emotions
25:37 - Kreeft special moments
28:12 - Specific gifts
35:08 - Personal response
44:18 - Wrap-up
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Peter Kreeft's book on Angels and Demons [ Amazon ]
amzn.to/2SiXvMi
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The movies referenced at 11 minutes are:
Finger of God
amzn.to/31F0YaV
Furious Love
amzn.to/2XLwbbh
Enjoy!
More at:
www.davenevins.com
www.peterkreeft.com
loveofgod.davenevins.com/topi... - Hudba
Pope Francis: "You, Charismatic Renewal, have received a great gift from the Lord. You were born of the will of the Spirit as a current of grace in the Church and for the Church."
Excellent podcast, Rob! Gotta love Dr. Kreeft!
Great thanks.
Love this conversation and the beautiful closing prayer. Thanks guys!
Hey thanks back. Glad you like it. Blessings to you
My story begins like this, I see the Lord's hand from the time of my conception in my life, My Mom wanted to abort me, I was saved due to the efforts of a Doctor who is a Catholic Nun, All my chilhood memories are flooded with how I searched for God, I was very much involved in all religious activities but I still did not have the real peace in his heart. I often wondered, “After all these religious ceremonies which I am performing every day, am I in right relationship with God? Is he drawing closer to me? My earliest encounter with Christ was big image of the Sacred Heart, I always felt called by Him, During classes and even at break I used to look at Him, the day His eyes met mine, He never left me, I still was a stauch Hindu, I wanted to overcome my karma by performing devotional rituals, but fear of death and reincarnation had overcome me, the words of Christ to Martha has set me free " I am the Ressurection", I followed Jesus right from I was 11, I was hated by my family and relatives for my faith in Him, but the Lord was gracious enough to take me into His fold when I was 16, I was baptized along with my Mom and maternal Grandmother into the Church. Jesus my Savior, my King my all in all changed my life, there is no meaning to life without Him.
Great testimony. Blessings. God loves you.
I’m just now finding this and Yah God, thank you!
Great. Thx Karen. Blessings to you.
This was great!! Thanks for the links.🙂
sure thing Jamie. Apprec
Thank you for this talk, helpful for my faith and my service 👍🏻😉💕
Great Daisy. Thx. Glad you enjoyed.
There's more on the channel and also with our healing program.
uncorkgenius.com
kreeft is a great roman catholic professor
+felicetanka - - That's true. But check out his insights on the hidden united life between Catholics and Protestants.
czcams.com/video/zH2CVBQLNpQ/video.html
no doubt the roman catholic church has the fullness complete deluxe, catholic glory of God.
Rome has Christ's Cath glory; but not Christ's Prot glory. If you think of Christianity as the Father's family tree; then Cath is more like the tree trunk and Prot more like the tree branches. Kreeft has comments about that at the link posted. Explains a lot.
czcams.com/video/zH2CVBQLNpQ/video.html
At 32:08 where we mentioned that tongues is the "least of the gifts," but were corrected that this common misconception is actually not in the Bible. See this:
stevebremner.com/2012/03/speaking-in-tongues-is-it-really-the-least-of-the-spiritual-gifts/
I'd disagree with the above article, his premise is that Paul doesn't place tongues below the other gifts but I think it clear that he does. However that doesn't mean it isn't important, just not as important as other gifts.
Thx Ronan. Yeah, I think Paul clearly says that in a group, he'd prefer that one prophesy over using tongues, simply for the benefit of the others. (Of course, prayer tongues benefits yourself primarily.)
But I think Bremmer's point is just that somehow a cliche got generated that it was the "least" of the gifts. And I agree with him that the slogan has no grounding.
The ratings mentality is like saying your ears are more important than your mouth. They do different things. We need both.
Great talk, love hearing Peter Kreeft speak on Charismatic Spirituality. One thing though: you have way too much reverb on your mics to the point that it sounds strange/unlistenable. Would make it much more enjoyable for the listener if you dialed that way back. God bless. :)
Thx Ronan. apprec the good "feedback" --cheers
The movies referenced at 11 minutes are "Finger of God" and "Furious Love":
amzn.to/31F0YaV
amzn.to/2XLwbbh
For a Skype prayer healing session with Constanzia Hooker, check out her story/teaching. The contact info is in the description:
czcams.com/video/1EtGio1oHms/video.html
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I long to minister to My saints for it is only when you are filled by Me that you are at all ready to face the daily battle set before you. My ministering equips you with peace, strength, endurance, and the will to carry on in circumstances where you would otherwise fall. Know that My Spirit must go before you in any area that I have called you to be My agent. Seek My rest, let go and allow Me to have My way in you. Remember, you are the venue of a great work begun in Heaven to carry and release into My created world. Let Me heal you and strengthen you so you can be with Me, so you can hear the sound of My voice that will guide you.. I will bring you what you need to heed My call, be it healing, sustenance, or the peace of mind to trust Me. Out of our being one will come your doing, a doing that will shine My light and fulfill what I intend for it to accomplish.
“Did I not tell you that if you trust me, you will experience the glory of God?" John 11:40
Five Ways to Speed Up Healing Sessions:
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I think they need to read the Catechism more carefully regarding charisms and tongues specifically. Slowly fine-comb over what it says and then shake in fear and trembling.
Hi TSA. If you're more specific, I can try to respond more specifically.
The idea is to see how Jesus painted of Christianity being like a tree -- which blossomed in the early church centuries (like a springtime); and now we're in an Autumn harvest where the blossoms are worldwide. Millions of people (Cath and Prot) have attested that God has placed these charisms within people if they want to open them.
Christ, the Bible, the authorities in Catholicism and all major Prot denoms., Vatican II, every pope since then, the pope's preacher Fr C, the American Bishop's conference for the US, the people involved (who understand it) , the people getting dramatic changed character and conversions, all says this is the miracle grow for the entire tree.
Here are some links from PK:
czcams.com/video/HrirgV97DrQ/video.html
The one at the end has some insights on tongues from Dr. Kreeft -- basically everyone has the ability to let God pray for them. That's why so much power flows from it. It's being drunk in love.
00:00 - Intro
02:07 - Philosophy of the supernatural
08:22 - Worldwide manifestations
18:36 - Closer to home
21:58 - Intellect and emotions
25:37 - Kreeft special moments
28:12 - Specific gifts
35:08 - Personal response
44:18 - Wrap-up
Didn't Paul say to pray in private in unintelligible languages if at all and pray in a language that people in group can understand?
Secondly, how do you know if someone is really praying in tongues when he's praying in strange sounds?
I have seen the whole group praying in these sounds but wonder if each of these people have really got the gift or are they just praying thinking they have got or will get the gift.
Hey Albert. Those are all good questions and common questions.
Yeah Paul definitely says what to benefit those listening then it’s better to have a prophetic word or an interpretation. But he also says don’t forbid it and that there are different types of tongues and one of them is meant to be interpreted and one of them isn’t then one of them is foreign languages. As Peter and I were mentioning, one of the purposes of the gift is to release the gift of prophecy. So they go together. And that’s been my experience over many years as well. If I am using the gift of prayer tongues then the gift of prophecy shows up a lot quicker. It’s not a requirement and it’s not a guarantee, but it is a common pattern.
I have also prayed for many people for the gift and there are definitely times when you know the person is experiencing some thing that’s obviously from the Holy Spirit and then there are times were a person might not be sure. In my case when I tried do it before I really unpacked it people thought I had the gift but I didn’t really. I knew that whatever I was doing felt more like me and didn’t really feel like God. But when I got the gift truly unpacked there was no doubt for me. And I think that’s the normal expression of it
In any case were not under any type of judgment if we make a mistake and we think we are praying in tongues but we’re not. Because we’re all just like little kids and sometimes you need to try before you get it. That was definitely my experience. It took me four months of trying before it finally clicked. What I discovered is that it’s something like getting intimate with somebody and if you’re doing it for mechanical reasons and there’s not love involved then you’re trying to force it. But if your heart is in the right place then it seems to flow pretty naturally if you are aware that it’s a real thing and that you can have it and that the Bible says to Hunger after the gifts especially the prophetic ones, because they build up the whole group, as Paul says as you know.
Regarding discerning whether or not somebody really has the gift I don’t think that’s too important because it’s not like we’re under a law that says if somebody prays in tongues and they’re on the way to getting the gift that there’s somehow evil or they’re trespassing the rules of the cosmos or anything like that. Like with many other things sometimes wrestling with it is part of getting to the breakthrough.
I think one of the things that is central is the core hunger of the heart for God. And then just doing what you can and leaving the rest up to him. God wants our best more than we do obviously.
Blessings to you
@@dave-nevins thanks Dave. Father Ripperger says in his presentation that talking in tongues could be diabolical too.
Should we ignore this and just continue praying in tongues even if we are unsure?
I read that during baptism we are blessed with Charisms. But God decides whom to give what.
Fr. Ripperger says that we cannot ask because God gives it freely. I think he meant it does not matter if we ask God for the charisms because God decides who to give what according to receivers ability.
I have not found answers that are definite in any Catholic teaching about the gift of tongues and all what priests are teaching. Some of these are conflicting.
Would you like to comment of these questions?
Thanks and God bless you.
Hey Albert. Good conversation.
Obviously you have to discern everything -- but the mistake that I think is pretty common is to discern the supernatural by the natural primarily. Paul says that the things of the spirit are discern spiritually. Love discerns love. God discerns God. Christ in you discern Christ everywhere. Etc.
The ever-reaction objection of “it might be diabolical" is often just a cover not to engage our supernatural dimension at a greater depth because of some reason. Paul says the opposite: Crave the spiritual gifts, esp. prophecy. Perhaps the objection within us comes from fear; perhaps it’s concern that we might be breaking a rule; perhaps it’s somebody told us a lie; perhaps it’s we are afraid that if we do the wrong thing we’re no longer going to be a Christian and that God‘s not going to cover for us or something like that.
In other words the main focus is always the supernatural love of God first as our best life, best willpower, best discernment, best enjoyment, best Shalom. We allow God to be the one to decide for us. It's always the supernatural love from Jesus first.
That being said, Jesus also does give us natural tools for discernment: does it come from love; does it lead to love; does it bear the fruits of love; is it made of love? Does it bear witness that Jesus is "I Am"?; etc.
That being said it’s a hard argument to make that the gift of prayer tongs is diabolical. Both from reason and in my experience, and most people, it's almost always obviously from the Spirit; but there are blocks in order to release it. That's why Paul says to crave it. You have to be hungry. Lovers are hungry.
I also agree with you that the gifts are latent and everybody as an inheritance that we received from Jesus.
This is one reason why it’s a big deal to make a distinction between the spirit and the soul because we already have the spiritual gifts in our superatural spirit but we don’t always release them into the natural soul. As Peter K rightly points out in the audio, they are potential but they need to be made actual with our active receptivity.
The way to know more about the gift of tongues is to ask the Holy Spirit first. Your conscience is the highest guide according to the Catholic catechism and protestant authorities and general common sense. In fact some of the arguments that are famous for defending the belief that God is real concerns the priority of the conscience as first, which is a part of your spirit. So if you want to know if something is from God then we need to develop and practice the power of living the life of God in us first. We know Love by love. Else somebody can be telling us a lie, or trying to supplant our conscience, or trying to manipulate us, perhaps based on their own wounding or their own diabolical influences.
So when you ask God about this topic in prayer: does He give you supernatural signs and peace and connection with other people and unity -- at the core of your being with the core of God?
The nice thing about this viewpoint is that I don’t even have to be responsible for how you respond to my convictions -- I can just present them and then it’s between you and God to do what you want with them. So also it's nice that you don’t have to receive whatever you don’t think is from the Holy Spirit, and I don’t have to do any extra labor to take false responsibility to convince you otherwise. So being led by the Spirit is always the first and best and most satisfying and most holy way to live.
The supernatural love of God is always the best
Cheers
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It is in dependence upon Me that you become effective-strong with calm and without pride; gentle, not defensive; vulnerable, softened to be shaped; weak, that you know clearly your many limitations. You know that when My presence comes in when your “strength” is set aside. Your fortress attempts to protect a you of your own creation -- but I am your protection in the things that matter. Lay aside your fear, your apprehension. Come to Me weak and on your knees with a new sense of delight that I am in you and that your sense of weakness is a reminder of whose you are. When the devil comes in at this time, you have My word and My anointing. Hear Me alone. You’re more afraid of the surrender of control than anything else.
There is immense joy behind this wall of the natural. If only you knew and could trust when I tell you what's there. I am in control-is that not enough to rejoice in? God, the one who made it all, who makes it all happen with perfect rhyme and reason.
I am ever working My ways in and through you. You are vital to My call in this universe. Let Me take it up for you. Let us run together and flee the ways of the past. Await, victory comes in the morning of My light. Live on!
@@albertjoseph9684 Father Ripperger is right. You should listen to him instead. This Charismatic stuff all comes from Protestantism.
Thanks. Oh I have listened to him.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit have always come from the Holy Spirit.
We have a lot of stories of healing which you can check out here:
Https://uncorkgenius.com
There are a lot of things catholics and protestants share in common which are recognized by both catholics and protestants as good and of Christ.
There’s another dialogue with Dr. Peter Kreeft about that on CZcams here. Just search for:
70×7 reasons to be both catholic and protestant.
Blessings to you!
Peter Kreeft's book on Angels and Demons [ Amazon ]
amzn.to/2SiXvMi
1 cor.14:1 commands us to strive eagerly for spiritual gifts. If my team is in the Superbowl . I want them to eagerly strive to win. I don't want them to be, "open" to winning. I have a couple of questions though. What is the difference between the gift of Wisdom, and the gift of Knowledge mentioned in 1 cor. 12:8? Is the gift of Wisdom Isaiah prophesized about in Isaiah 11:2 the same one St.Paul is talking about in 1cor.12:8? Thanks, I really enjoyed your interview with Dr. Kreeft. Kreeft was instrumental in me coming back home to the Catholic Church ( his videos, never met him ).
+Blue Collar Catholic - - Hey blue-collar Catholic. Thanks for the encouragement.
I believe that in general, wisdom is knowledge at the right time.
More specifically with charismatic gifts I think the gift of wisdom is a supernatural power to know when to apply knowledge; and supernatural knowledge is when you know information about a person that you couldn't know that your natural means. This is often called a "word of knowledge."
I believe that these are different than the gifts mention and Isaiah. Those to me seem to be natural qualities.
The main encouragement of the New Testament is when Jesus said wait for him in worship and he will show up with in us and a supernatural way.
Thanks again.
As I pray for you now I can tell that you are good in spirit. The scripture that comes to mind is Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. Matthew 5.
Blessings to you! - - Dave
Thank you brother.
Blue Collar Catholic people are so.focused on prophecy and tounges. God gave me a taste of the word of knowledge. I crave it so much. such a beautiful gift. word of wisdom is the wisdom to know where to go what to do. gift of knowledge is knowing key prices of information. honestly I'm still trying to make sense of it. it's like being psychic but through God.
Here's a nice example some Words of Knowledge by Shawn Bolz
czcams.com/video/zoeJzdco22o/video.html
Thanks!
Here's the transcript:
www.amazon.com/Charisms-Visions-Tongues-Transcript-ebook/dp/B00D5XRXLI/theofficiapet-20
Transcript of this dialogue:
amzn.to/2Coip72
Here are links relevant to this dialogue on the supernatural gifts (charisms) that often lie dormant within us. At 11:00 movies referenced are:
Finger of God
www.amazon.com/Finger-God-Darren-Wilson/dp/B00116495O/theofficiapet-20
Furious Love
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003KOPF80/theofficiapet-20
New book on hearing God's voice!
www.amazon.com/Surrendering-Abundance-Receiving-Spirit-Filled-Messages/dp/1512049239/theofficiapet-20
Download an MP3 from iTunes
itunes.apple.com/us/album/charisms-visions-tongues-healing/id637027104?at=10lb6F
Enjoy!
More at:
www.davenevins.com
www.peterkreeft.com
loveofgod.davenevins.com/topics/more/charisms_audio-dialogue.htm
Think of the Catholics as more like the tree trunk; Protestants as more like the tree branches and the charismatic gifts as the miracle grow for the whole tree. Places that receive these energy bursts really grow: Check this out: czcams.com/video/zH2CVBQLNpQ/video.html
Dave Nevins amen. they used for edification of the body as a whole
Dave Nevins Thank you so much for your work Dave. You're very lucky to talk with Peter Kreeft. It's kind of a small world in Boston (especially Catholic Bostonians) and I thought about what it would be like to meet Professor Kreeft and I have walked the same steps and prayed the same prayers, but I think I would break down and weep because he's so formative in my conversion along with my mentor Dwight Duncan. We also share a love of Tolkien and CS Lewis.
I really want to meet him someday, Dave, it's almost unbelievable that I haven't yet. You're so lucky. I want to write his biography.
+Brandon Young - - Thanks Brandon. Yeah he's a very gifted and unique person. I've enjoyed getting to talk with him at length periodically over the years. Glad you liked the audio.
Excellent Skype/Zoom healing prayer
uncorkGenius.com
Pope Francis again encourages charismatic spirituality:
www.ccr.org.uk/articles/pope-tells-priests-run-life-in-the-spirit-courses/
we praise with our bodies and our intellect in the joy of Jesus' love
Here's an interview on getting real breakthroughs in prayer -- [ Bruce and Jean Hammond ]
czcams.com/video/cDBJ1GPt9M0/video.html
Dave Nevins thank you friend.
+Dan Hepp - - Thanks!
The “tongues” Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians are producing today is an entirely self-created phenomenon. It is non-cognitive non-language utterance; random free vocalization based upon a subset of the existing sounds of the speaker’s native language, and any other language(s) the speaker may be familiar with or have had contact with. It is typically characterized by repetitive syllables, plays on sound patterns, and over-simplification of syllable structure. “Tongues” may be either spoken or sung. Due to the nature of how it is produced, no two people will ever have the same “tongue”.
There is _nothing_ that these ‘speakers’ are producing that cannot be explained in natural linguistic terms.
Conversely, there are no Biblical references to ‘tongues” that cannot be explained with respect to real language.
Early Pentecostal/Charismatic ‘tongues-speakers’ looked for Scriptural references for what they were doing, since their original supposition (xenoglossy) definitely wasn’t it; however, Scriptural references were simply not there. The resulting implicit theology was not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy, but rather a synthesis of trying to make sense of the “tongues experience” in light of the narrative of Scripture.
In other words, a way to legitimize the modern phenomenon by ‘proofing‘ it in the Bible, despite the obvious overwhelming absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues - call it what you will, but the result was a virtual re-definition of Scripture with respect to the understanding/justification of modern “tongues” for this group of Christians.
Two of the best examples of this classic re-definition are the phrase “praying in the Spirit”, and the word “tongue(s)” itself.
The Greek word translated “pray in” can have several different meanings/nuances. It can mean “by means of,” “with the help of,” “in the sphere of,” and “in connection to.” Praying in the Spirit does _not_ refer to the words we are saying. Rather, it refers to _how_ we are praying.
In the three places the phrase is used (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude), there is absolutely no reference to 'languages' in connection with the phrase. Therefore, “praying in the Spirit” should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will. In Pentecostal/Charismatic parlance however, the phase has come to be equated with 'pray in tongues'. A reading into Scripture of something that was just never there.
The word “tongue(s)” is simply a more archaic word for (real) “language(s)”, nothing more. Replace “tongue(s)” with “language(s)” in these passages and the whole modern Pentecostal/Charismatic concept of “tongues” begins to become difficult to posit - “language(s)” sounds a lot less mysterious. In Pentecostal/Charismatic parlance however, the phase has come to be equated with the modern concept of “tongues-speech”. Again, a reading into Scripture something that was never there.
“Tongues” is simply not what its ‘speakers’ want/need it to be.
Modern tongues is just another tool, like chanting or meditation, etc.; a way by which one may establish a closer relationship with the divine and strengthen one’s spiritual path. In this respect (i.e. as the _tool_ it is), it can be quite powerful to accomplish this goal. Known by many different names, “tongues”, or more accurately “glossolalia”, is practiced by many cultures and religious beliefs from all over the world; it is relatively new to Christianity and certainly not unique to it.
Thx for the reply Kavik. That's lengthy, but I'll try to summarize a response to your points.
-- The vast majority of those claiming the gift (myself included), report that it is not self-generated. It's something like kissing. There's an element from you that can initiate it; and a part that is absolutely not from you and most would claim it's a supernatural element. The Spirit actually moves your faculties. More on worldwide reports:
www.pewforum.org/2006/10/05/spirit-and-power/
-- Mine does not have any connection with English. Don't think of the appearance of common phonemes as proof there's no message or meaning, for as Paul says in the Bible, it's your spirit interacting with the Holy Spirit. That, in fact, is what it feels like. So, again to use the kissing image, the movement of the lips is not primarily where the love is exchanged.
-- The Bible talks about varieties of tongues and Paul says one types just for you and God. In another place he talks about the Spirit groaning with utterances. The early church also has a lot of experiences with this. See Augustine's prayer of Jubilee. Or St. Theresa of Avila's description.
loveofgod.davenevins.com/topics/more/tongues-described.htm
-- Christianity is has never been about the rules of the Bible. The point is that God is not within us and he guides us to understand the Bible. Therefore there are a ton of gifts not even mentioned in the Bible, much less completely explained. Jesus' word is not all of who Jesus is. That's looking at the Bible with the modern European view; not the Jewish view. It's always been about the supernatural relationship first.
-- I agree that “praying in the Spirit” can mean different things. But that doesn't mean the gift in the Bible or today isn't legit.
-- I agree that the word “tongue(s)” can be used for foreign language or the gift of tongues.
-- The gift of tongues is not just a random gift; in common experience it acts as a catalyst for other supernatural experiences: healings, visions, deliverances, etc. It's an amplifier of all these.
-- All of the major church bodies (Cath and Prot), as well as all of the places where the church is growing the most, as well as the places that are experiencing the supernatural the most, all say this is a gift to be sought, because it changes a lot.
I find it really helpful to think about the kissing connection because it explains a so much: Your Spirit gets satisfied in a way that you can't just do yourself; it releases other types of unitive, healing experiences, it changes the flavor of the relationship with God so that it's less "Platonic" from being mere friends with a common interest, to something much more dynamic.
here's more:
loveofgod.davenevins.com/topics/more/tongues.htm
Blessings! -- Dave
_The vast majority of those claiming the gift (myself included), report that it is not self-generated._
I’m afraid the linguistics/mechanics behind what is actually being generated prove otherwise. It is not something that is generated consciously like a normal language, which is why many think that they are not producing their own glossolalia. It comes from the subconscious - that, and the fact that it is not language is why things like SPECT imagining (such as that done by the Univ. of PA several years ago) show that the language producing centers of the brain are not overly engaged when producing “tongues”.
_The Spirit actually moves your faculties._
The Spirit may indeed inspire a person to pray in tongues and even inspire what to subconsciously pray for (said prayer done in whatever the person’s native language is), but it does not generate the tongue nor speak it for you - that’s all on the speaker.
_Mine does not have any connection with English._
It’s only connection to English is that the individual sounds (phonemes) that make up the “tongue” come from a subset of phonemes from English (assuming that’s your native language) and any other language you have come in contact with. The sounds are typically ones that are the easiest to physiologically produce. Other than that, no, there’s no connection to English.
_The Bible talks about varieties of tongues and Paul says one types just for you and God. In another place he talks about the Spirit groaning with utterances._
Actually it does not - every reference is to real language and describes a real language issue or situation. The “groanings” in Romans many also use to evidence modern tongues has nothing to do with tongues, language or even spiritual gifts. It’s a Pentecostal/Charismatic reading into/understanding of scripture of something that just isn’t there.
_But that doesn't mean the gift in the Bible or today isn't legit._
True - but the gift of tongues (or any other spiritual gift) is simply the natural God-given ability/knack/talent for a given thing; in this case, the ability to easily learn languages. If, as Paul suggests, the talent/ability/knack is used solely for the purpose of the church and the glory of God, it’ commonly called a ‘spiritual gift’. Paul refers to these in three different places - the list is slightly different in each instance suggesting that any natural God-given ability/talent/knack applies, depending on how we chose to use it.
_I agree that the word “tongue(s)” can be used for foreign language or the gift of tongues._
The gift of tongues is as described above - real language; not non-cognitive non-language utterance.
Something that most speakers do not take into account is that no two ‘tongues’ will ever sound or be the same. This begs the question that if “tongues” are a spiritual/heavenly language, why would there ever be a need for more than one??
In that respect, something to note is that when Paul describes different “kinds of tongues”, the word he uses for ‘kinds’ actually denotes ‘families’ (‘genos’), i.e. thus, “kinds of tongues” should be read more as “families of languages” (e.g. Semitic as opposed to Italic, as opposed to Celtic, etc.) - there is no way to interpret that phrase as anything but referring to real languages.
Glossolalia is essentially a tool - a way to initiate a connection to the divine. Most other cultures that practice glossolalia realize this.
For most Christian believers “tongues” is a very real and spiritually meaningful experience, a way to connect with the deity and strengthen one’s spiritual path, but consisting of emotional release via non-linguistic ‘free vocalizations’ at best; the generation of non-cognitive non-langauge utterance - the subconscious playing with sounds to create what is perceived and interpreted as actual, meaningful speech.
Next time you speak tongues, take out your phone; put it on voice recorder, and record yourself for about a minute. Then play it back and take a listen, truly listen to the utterances - play the recording back over and over and write them down and look at them. Can you see the patterns, the play on sounds, repetitions of syllables, predictability of syllable structures, the constant use of particular vowels over others - then ask yourself, is this language or simply something that mimics it and is only a façade of language? Is this really somehow divinely produced? Next, listen to the tongues/glossolalia of say a Shaman from Siberia and you’ll notice he’s producing his tongues the same exact way you are. They may even sound like something you’ve heard before - are his ‘tongues’ really any less divine than yours?
I am not against the practice of glossolalia; particularly if it is a way for the speaker to strengthen his/her own spiritual path, but understand what it really is and perhaps just as importantly (indeed, if not more importantly) ……understand what it is not.
Hey Kavik.. Here's my brief summary cut:
It seems that your main premise is that tongues is only a language. That's not the lens that the majority of Christianity uses on the Bible, either in church history, or today, in leadership (Cath and Prot) or laity, either; either in doctrine or experience.
For instance, in the Bible, the type of prayer tongues is where Paul says "When I pray in tongues I edify myself..." is between God and the person; that what most are experiencing today. E.g., ref the audio above for authority sources list from Rome.
Having it, I can tell you that it is definitely not natural. I can also tell you when I use it, people commonly see visions of angels. It's a catalyst to more supernatural on various levels.
Here's an example from a New York Times article:
www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/opinion/sunday/luhrmann-why-we-talk-in-tongues.html
When we think of Christianity as more like a marriage and less like a task or doctrine or data transfer or law; it becomes more obvious that God is supernatural love. And that's how people experience tongues.
That's why I use the kissing picture:
It's not necessary to exercise it to be married; but it is normal, helps the bond, adds enthusiasm, increases the art of love, activates other gifts, etc.
Yes - references to “tongues” in the Bible refer to real language. They all describe real language situations or issues. There just isn’t anything in those passages that cannot be explained in light of real language; said language(s) perhaps not always understood by those listening/hearing it, but always understood by the one(s) speaking as it’s their native language. Corinthians is perhaps the best example of this (though there are a few others in Acts (?) - Cornelius’s house and Ephesus).
What Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are practicing today with respect to ‘tongues’, did not exist in the Christian tradition 150 years ago.
The above is not the lens Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians use. I would have to beg to differ, most of Christianity regards Biblical "tongues" as real language.
The “tongues” in Acts were viewed as xenoglossy, but real languages nonetheless. Much of current understanding (with respect to ‘tongues’ being something supernatural in their origin) stems from this assumption (i.e. xenoglossy). As an aside, if one carefully examines the text in a historical and linguistic light however, there was no xenoglossy, nor was there even the need of any type of major "language miracle" for that matter. There was indeed a miracle, and it was indirectly related to language (or it's use anyway), but it’s not the one people usually associate with the event.
The passage you paraphrase from Paul needs to be taken in context of at least the first paragraph (14: 1-5). The reason why the speaker is only edifying himself is because no one else at that public worship understands his (the speaker’s) native language; thus, he’s the only one who can benefit from it. Keep in mind that nowhere in that passage does it even remotely suggest the speaker does not understand what he himself is saying.
I agree that glossolalia (for Christians glossolalia equates to modern tongues) can be a catalyst - that’s essentially how it’s used in many other traditions that practice it. To put it in sort of New Age-y terms, you’re sort of channeling God/the Divine, and it can be a very powerful experience with some amazing results. In addition, as you mention in the kissing analogy, it is a way for a person to strengthen their connection to the divine as well as their spiritual path.
But the point here is that the actual glossolalia is just the tool used to initiate the experience - in this respect, it’s no different than say chanting or deep meditation, or any other type of spiritual tool used to focus energy and intent.
That said, I would argue that for some people however, the results alluded to above are clearly a self/mass delusion prompted by such a strong desire to “experience God” that one creates that experience.
Glossolalia is a powerful tool, and it’s very ancient. To the Christian experience however, it’s a relatively recent addition.
Hey Kavik. ok, I think we have our crossroads. Thx for the good dialogue.
My summary:
The view that it's always an existing earth language is a view that is not supported by.
-- the word "languages, since there is certainly nothing that says it "vernacular-style language only." E.g., , just as the word "pen" can denote "writing", "languages" as a Greek word can mean lots of communication, e.g. "a love language" And IMO none of those passages (fits Acts 19 Ephesus, 1 Cor14, Cornelius’s house) necessitate being a a left-brain literal-only word.
-- The majority leadership (Cath and Prot) say the gift today is legit, common, and seek-worthy.
-- The majority position among those claiming to have opened the gift (such as myself) is that it's definitely not natural and that it triggers the supernatural in ways that natural chanting can't (such as getting visions of Christ, or receiving a miracle healing). Also, the anecdotal evidence of things like the U of Penn brain scan study indicate it's not from normal language centers.
-- The majority position through the centuries was that it was still operating, and I gave examples: the first few centuries of the early church (see scholar work from Killian McDonald, or Fr. Francis Martin); Augustine, Theresa of Avila, the Quakers, the Great Awakening, and any place where there's a miracle outbreak, and sporadic saints like Francis of Assissi.
--
You raise a good issue with the explosive prevalence in the past 150 years. Why did the early church and why has the modern church experienced it so much more? There have been more reported miracles in Christianity within the past century than in all other centuries combined.
To explain, some refer to a prediction in the Bible [Acts 2:17-21] that the outpouring of God will be as the spring and autumn rains in Israel: water for planting and water for harvest. The implication seems to be that we live in the last scene of mankind’s story. Jesus said to read general clues, but that we won’t know precise dates, [Matt 24:36] so no one can say exactly how long our last chapter will be. Whatever theology we use, the global trends continue strong.
In the modern West, because religions often lean toward abstract, impersonal principles, rather than concrete, organic, relationships, we might falsely assume God’s gift-giving over time must be uniformly, linearly distributed. However, that doesn’t seem to be the biblical way. Unpredictable patterns and seasons and common, more organic, make better sense, and are more natural. They are more like relationships.
For instance, t
he church, as the bride of Christ, got a lot of kissing as a baby, and now a lot more in it's stage before the full marriage.
In film narratives, a natural story arc usually consists of three acts: an early attention-getter that generates interest, intermediate character development to deepen investment, and finally an enhanced action climax. It looks like we’re somewhere in Act III in God's epic adventure romance.
Cheers bro-- Dave