Excellent use of the drill to illustrate the stepper motor workings, I got the idea instantly whereas an explanation of stepper motors would have been confusing, nice one !!
Yes, well... to be honest I was not sure what the drill was about. Stepper motor's core idea is that it can rotate at precise angle in small steps, which in turn can be translated into stepped linear motion as needed to move the magnets closer to the resistance wheel in the trainer. I don't see how the drill helps with understanding that... at least from the technical point of view.
The way they USE the step motor to move the magnets/resistance is with a worm screw thingy. That moves in and out. Like a drill.... it's not a perfect analogy... or demonstration... But the Internet...where of course I'm wrong (and spreading misinformation...etc.. which I've been accused of). ;)
@@gplama did you do the test with at least 39-17 or lower? Big chainring is out of the question for this trainer. I don't mind the small fluctuations because real group or races are about fluctuations. Also, the trainer seems to have faster response in bluetooth mode compared to ant+. I like the feeling better using Bluetooth.
As a time trialist 95% of all my intervals are over 3 mins. I have +700 hours on Drivo, no any single problem with longer intervals, but those under 30 secs are simply impossible... I 100% agree with Shane here.
Me too. I don't even actually own a smart trainer or half the stuff you talk about, I just enjoy watching you talk about it. And when I do decide to buy something, I know I'll have all the necessary knowledge to buy the best for my specific needs.
The Direto was my 1st trainer purchase. I noticed what you explained in this video right away. Talked to the folks where I purchased it and returned it and purchased a Kickr 2016 2nd gen and have been very happy. Over 15,000 km issue free. Great video and use of props.
I'd love to see some more re-visit lab tests of legacy trainers like the original Kickr, the 2016 Kickr, Kinetic Rock N' Roll etc. Great content as always Shane.
That explains what I was feeling. Thought every smart trainer had it. (only had the flux that broke down before it) You do learn to ride it though. You have to really ease into the intervals with erg mode. Racing in zwift I turn sim-mode off completely. Still happy with the buy. Number 1 priority was power accuracy. Though now you got me wanting more. I'll wait for the neo 2 to be on sale.
When I bought mine in late 2018, at just > 1/2 normal price, I complained to Elite about the problem of poor power control in steady state erg mode and in short timed intervals. I felt like a bit of whinger. After contacting them on numerous occasions they said the oscillations were normal. I just cracked on and worked with it. Thanks for showing this up. My legs did not lie! I doubt they would do a firm wear update. That would mean reduced new unit sales. :D
Initially I bought this unit for the power accuracy of +- 0.5% but after using the Elite Drivo ii for two weeks I am forced to return it. 1. Whenever I pause in ERG mode and then resume the workout, for some unknown reason the unit applies maximum resistance and I am unable to continue. At this point, the only solution is to get off the bike, unplug the machine, and restart the entire workout which costs precious training time. 2. Despite being advertised as 3 times faster than its predecessor, the unit takes 15-20 seconds to change resistance in ERG mode. Even for slight changes, say 150 watts to 250 watts, this lag is present essentially rendering ERG mode unusable. This is simply not acceptable for a trainer that costs $1,200. 3. In addition to the lag mentioned in (2), the unit overshoots and undershoots power in ERG mode and is not steady. For example, if I am going from 150 watts at 90 RPM to 250 watts at 100 RPM, when I increase my cadence, the unit initially drops power well below 150 watts (I assume it thinks that I am overshooting the current set power) and only after 5 seconds or so it will get used to the new cadence and slowly ramp up to 250 watts, thus compounding the lag and making ERG mode worthless. 4. Finally, even while keeping steady cadence in ERG mode, the resistance can sometimes drastically increase or decrease at random. For example if I am at 150watts for an interval and then jump to 300watts, for the first 5 to 8 seconds it will stay consistently at 400+watts, which ruins the interval and makes it difficult to continue. Furthermore, as explained in (3), when doing longer intervals, say at 200watts, the resistance sometimes can rocket to 230watts and then suddenly drop to below 200 watts and then settle to 230w again, which ruins the interval since it adds even more time to the lag. 5. I cannot connect to Zwift properly using Bluetooth Smart FTMS. 6. Using the “Upgrado” app by Elite srl does not fix anything. This is a high end and expensive trainer and unfortunately basic things don’t work. It seems that I have experienced every single problem that other users in these comments have complained about. Elite advertises this unit as 3x faster than before but this is not the case. I do not want to deal with Elite to get them to fix the ERG mode issues as I believe that at a price of $1,200, a trainer should simply work as advertised and there is no indication that they will be able to fix the max resistance issue (1) when pausing ERG mode. I will be returning it and buying the Saris H3 or Wahoo Kickr. Thanks for reading.
Thanks Shane really pleased , i have been using Drivo since November 2015 (2016),, thought i was going crazy as ERG mode is a nightmare ( given up trying ERG ) just too slow to respond , you hit the nail on the head when explaining this trainer , i have not tried any others so think its time to upgrade , especially as i want to race on Zwift ,,, little tip for any one who has one its better to have settings at 50% if climbing ( less chance of those magnets gripping the fly wheel and stopping you from even being able to turn pedals )..
I wish you had done that test 2 years ago and had noticed the ERG mode problem :-\ I hate those fluctuations, and once they told me on the forums that it was because of fluctuation of *my* cadence, even if I was sticking to 90 +/-1 rpm ! When you go up/down by 50-100W on the power you're supposed to maintain, it kills you, physically and mentally. So... only about 1.5/2 months to train indoor before the weather turns OK here, so I won't buy anything new this year, but I will for the next indoor season.
Hi mate! I'm ""glad"" to read your comment because i understand that I'm not the only user feeling like inside a community for people "with serious problems" to use Elite products especially with Direto/Drivo, Direto II in my exact case. I went from Rampa by Elite that it was really much stable without problems about power fluctuations. Euh, the problem of the Rampa instead was the continuos lost of connection with the sensors, and nothing to do: weak electronic card on the Rampa. So i get a Direto II hoping to train better. I am Italian but I am a little ashamed of how they are taking the problems of their products lightly, those who buy foreign products do well. So they have not yet released a new firmware, they also say that it is not possible, but what engineers are there in Elite? Ouch O_o
@@DjEvolux "I am Italian but I am a little ashamed of how they are taking the problems of their products lightly" Bro, at least the designs look pretty sexy.
I have the device, it is about two years now, and I confirm all your saying. After two years, you may also do some mechanics to avoid the belt noise, as I did today.
Interesting review. Lots of depth and subjective feedback. Thank you - I'm looking for a trainer, so very enlightening. You do seem to have a thing about stepper motors. Your drill doesn't use a stepper or convey any useful analogy (other than turning). The issues that you describe are probably more abut the mechanical application and the algorithm used to set the motor position, measuring input power vs desired input power etc. The oscillating and decay that you describe is typical of a poorly tuned PID algorithm which exhibits overshoot, then under shoot as the system tries to settle to the required value. With the correct mechanical setup, a stepper can easily achieve movements of just a few microns with very little backlash and so the magnets can be placed in an almost any position, no need for you to feel "steps". Stepper systems trade off speed, accuracy, backlash, noise, power consumption, heat output, price etc. At the RRPs of trainers, I can see no reason for compromise! This ain't rocket science or expensive to do right. There is plenty of info on-line, but the main reason for using a stepper is that erm, they step! Or, if you like, can be made to move discreet amounts without the need for a feedback system. Rather than just switch the motor on, one sends a signal to a driver circuit to indicate direction, and a pulse to make it move one step in that direction. The other big plus is that they can resist movement, staying at the set position when they are not being told to rotate, exhibiting massive torque. Hence used in 3D machines, robotics etc. I suppose that all of that dribble was supposed to imply that it seems like a poorly designed, over priced system from your review! :) Update: Just reading other reviews, lots of agreement on PID tuning
Actually I'm quite surprise to see how accurate this unit is. I mean, almost 3 years ago, accurate power and thru axle support, not bad at all, it's just doesn't worth to buy a new one now just because we have better options at same price, but it's nice to see how good this was 3 years ago
Crazy that the motor affects the erg so much, the demonstration makes sense. Maybe would be interesting to see a histogram of the steady states drivo vs neo, another way of showing variance. Or what % of readings were outside of say 2% target (or others, ie. # of readings +-10% should be 0), could pull from CSV, and considered like a score card metric. Great reviews helps make educated purchases.
Perfect demonstration. Good that i didn't buy Drivo1 few years ago. Now i have Drivo2 which seems to be better but not perfect. I don't use much erg-mode so all the cons probably came up more in erg-mode than free ride.
Lama lab results look similar to your original direto review. Great accuracy, but the first gen elite wheel on trainers' ERG mode is slow to settle after resistance changes compared to their competitors. They do all have a similar design with a motor pressing a pulley against a belt to provide resistance. Sure seems like the firmware performance changed in regards to that feedback loop of measure-adjust-measure-adjust for the drivo 2 (and direto 2?). Would have been nice if Elite made those changes available to direto 1 and drivo 1 users!
Not how the trainers work. The design is a linear stepper motor that moves permanent magnets to adjust overlap with a spinning Al disc. FUll overlap=100%, no overlap = 0%.
i have the Drivo myself, you are right intervals are nighmare specially the 10 sec. one but you can learn how to beat the resistance motor First any interval with 100+ cadence with 10 sec. will mess the interval you can't go suddenly increasing the cadence you will never hit the numbers for me i go slowly let's say upto only 95 then i am on the right numbers but let's ask the right question why in hell Elite didn't make any new firmware for it ! we paid a lot for this trainer
Great stuff as always Shane. Like several of the comments below, I too also own a Direto first gen (My 2nd one after the first one I bought had a fried board and was sent back) and this being my first ever indoor trainer (period!), I wondered if some of the things I was experiencing in Zwift both in Sim mode and my few forays into workouts using ERG mode were just something that was common to all smart trainers and Zwift, or if some of the "oddities" I was experiencing were due to my setup. I'm assuming there are a lot of internal similarities between the first gen Drivo and Direto with the likely differences being the size of the flywheel and maybe some of the programming/electronics which allow the Drivo to handle larger gradients and wattage outputs and so I'm taking what you said in your review and extrapolating a lot of that to my Direto. I've not yet had a chance to ride any other Smart Trainer, but now I'm anxious to give a Kickr/Core or Neo a spin and see how differently they behave. The Direto will do me for now as it and Zwift have already allowed me to do more offseason cycling then ever before, but if the feel and functionality of Wahoo/Tacx (ahem, Garmin) trainers is that much better after I get a chance to play with them, I can see myself very quickly looking for a replacement for my Direto next season. Thanks a million for confirming a lot of what I was experiencing. very helpful to this indoor training neophyte.
Intervals are a pain. My particular unit is way off in accuracy and elite keep telling me its normal.. Mine is off by a long way versus Vector 3s.. Vector reporting 174 avg drivo 159.. doesn't seem normal to me.. Great video as always Shane.
Had a drivo 1 for two winter's training and coming off a cycleops powerbeam pro was initially impressed as you might expect. However after a short period of time experienced all the issues you have described. Ergo mode on the shorter vo2 max intervals was just complete sh1t. Changed to a neo 1 for this winter and it was like night and day in comparison. The neo died on me however and was replaced under warranty with the neo 2 by tacx support, even better user experience. So my advice to any one thinking of buying the drivo 1 now would be to give it a swerve, much better to get the neo 1, new or used at a discounted price or if funds allow go for the neo 2, you won't be disappointed.
@8:10, looks like a poorly tuned PID loop, or maybe even just a PI loop to me. especially with the decreasing amplitude in the "ringing". Edit: this could probably be helped with a firmware update (if those can be done), even more so if they decide that +/- 5W to 10W from target was acceptable.
My experience exactly. Sigh. The 'accuracy' is fine, and the averages all work out fine, but the fatigue is brutal with all the up-n-down wattages in a supposed steady-state effort. I'll get through the small remainder of the current winter in North America, but 2019-2020 looks like it'll be an expensive off season for me. :( (FWIW, I think TrainerRoad holds *slightly* better than Zwift, but its still the same basic issue)
There has not been a firmware update for the Drivo 1 since I had mine delivered in the fall of 2017. There has been a pending promise of an update for months now. I am certainly hoping that Elite fulfill their promise soon and that it helps to correct the deficiencies you have point out.
Wouldn't hold your breath on that one, check out the elite drivo forum page on the firmware update subject. Elite support been promising but not delivering an update for over 12 months now, and since they now produce an updated version in the drivo 2 why would they? That is the reason I offloaded mine for a tacx neo.
Looking to get back into cycling this off season. My old trainer was a Dummy Wheel on trainer so all of these new-ish smart trainers are a MARJOR improvement. I have seen this as low as 455USD and wonder if this is a better deal than buying some of the higher end Wheel-ON trainers (cyops, Trac, etc).. All Suggestions are welcome
Shane, thanks a lot for the video. I have this same issue happening to me with the Drivo || in ERG mode, not to mention that at the beginning I had big lag issues which where solved by Elite assistance using a 3rd party Android app which allows to change some parameters in the trainer, after I could prove them that there was a 10/12sec lag till the Drivo adjusted it's resistance to match to interval power. For such a high end trainer it's unacceptable that there seems to be versions around with different firmware (you said the Drivo II you tried didn't have this problem neither the laggines) and at the moment there's no way to have a freaking official update, which I heard they've been promising since years but no news, that's why I will never again buy another Elite trainer and would advise people not to do either. Bottles and cages are good though but for trainer I'd rather give my money to Wahoo or Tacx next year.
Love to see a revisit of the low end/budget trainers complete with llama lab test as my qubo/intera is getting a bit tired. don't know whether to buy again or go for something else
Shane Did Elite make any reference to when we can expect the promised firmware update for the original Elite Drivo during your visit to their facility this year?
I've just bought Elite Drivo today and when connected to my Wahoo Roam the speed are reading 80mph plus. Any idea how to fix this. I'm a complete newbie. I don't have zwift yet as I'm waiting on new laptop arriving so just connected Roam to Elite trainer. Thanks in advance.
@@gplama worked an absolute treat. Thank you so much for your advice and very fast reply. Its really appreciated. Still scratching my head at times but hopefully we'll get there with practice.
I recently bought a Drivo to replace my Real Turbo Muin. I boxed it up and sent it back after 10 minutes, it was unrideable in ERG mode and didn't feel as nice ride quality as the RTM. Elite look a nightmare to deal with too. Should have compared it with Kickr Core as similar price now.
This made me think. When I had the Drivo I didn't care about its problems at all because I never really use the erg mode. Matter of fact I didn't even use its super accurate power meter since I have a power meter on my bike and wanted to keep things even inside and outside. It occured to me, I don't even need a smart trainer. Just something with a good ride feel. I would sooo get a LeMond if noise wasn't an issue. I think I need cheap a direct drive non-smart trainer that is super quiet and has a great ride feel. I doubt that exists though.
Hey Shane, thanks for the review. Exactly this sine pattern is what a lot of drivo users are complaining about in the elite formus (forum.elite-it.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=78) for a long time already. Not sure whether Elite is ever going to deliver a firmware upgrade for this trainer (we are also waiting for the dual transmission upgrade for a long time already). A Pitty this ERG mode oscilation issue wasn't brought up by any other test/review before. Maybe some people would have gotten another trainer instead. Maybe you could reach out to elite for their official statement, whether they are going to fix this?
Yep, that's the thread that's on fire in the video. I've spent a whole day on this testing/video. Elite can take it or leave it as free consulting (or shitlist me for talking about my issues with their trainer). I'm moving on.
there is a reason if the only notable news in the drivo 2 is the better response time. I 'm an happy direto user but it has the same lag problem of the drivo 1 and i suppose this will be addressed with the direto 2. With the direto on zwift u feel the climbs with a lot of lag especially if you increase trainer difficutly value in the options. For some trainers i read that zwift can 'anticipate' incline changes in order to reduce lag, but i don't think this has been done with direto or drivo.
I bought Drivo in hope that it won't have imperfections and limitations of junior models. Just to finally find it shares the same lag problem with other Elite models (( Me passing 15% climb in Zwift czcams.com/video/3iYIyV2FR98/video.html
When I have microbursts scheduled since I bought one of these I just don't bother any more. It's completely useless for anything under 30 seconds. Interestingly I had exactly the same problem with the Atom. Seems like anything with a stepper motor is relatively useless, makes a lot of sense now. p.s. Wish I'd seen this before I bought mine!
Looking to buy one used. I fully understand your concerns about this trainer and I would be bummed about not feeling certain sections of the Zwift tracks; I am in this for the simulation. Would I see the same issues on say a Wahoo Kickr Snap wheel on trainer? I am totally new to this. Thanks
Have to ask this question I’ve been wondering it for a while might also be none of my business, are you technology/hacking lecturer at the University in Ballarat ?? Because the way explain your content is awesome
Not yet... but that's where my uni degree is from and I'm pretty proud of that. (and I like you call it Ballarat Uni... that name is gone, it's now Federation Uni).
Shane Miller - GPLama haha sorry for the wrong name !! You would be a fantastic teacher/lecturer you engage with your audience really well, I’m always wanting you to keep going down that rabbit hole and dig deeper. Love your work Shane you have inspired me to start making some videos
Just bought one and I am regretting a bit to have bought it.......... The cycle is definitely hard but doesn't seem to be as realistic. It feels harder than reality. Also I got problem with stability, the trainer moves around.
Hey SM, I got a support email back from Elite... they told me it was normal, but my DrivoII looks like your 10 sec intervals. The magnet keeps seeking..... let me know if you any other tricks to try. Cheers
Hi Shane, you should have done this video earlier. I would not have bought this notsmart trainer. I'm having hard time to train on it since for short intervals it not holding the power properly. It definitivly not stable at all. I'm waiting for firmware update since 1 and half year.....
Does the wave in the power mean that you tried to maintain a constant RPM as the drag went up and down? If you responded quickly then wouldn't the power chart be flatter?
ERG requires stable rpm for best performance. You can respond quickly with force/effort... but then it does what we're seeing here on. I ride other trainers exactly the same way (also other Elite trainers) with no issue.
When are you going to put the Minoura Kagura (DD) Smart Direct Drive Trainer through the paces? I rode one yesterday at the Zwift Cafe and it was nice, super quiet.
What is the difference between the Drivo and Drivo II that improves but doesn't totally solve ERG issues? That suggests that most of the hardware is the same as there is still a small issue, so is it mainly software improvements? Can any of the improvements be upgraded to the first gen Drivo?
Hi Shane, Thanks for this video and drill analogy. I have a Direto (version 1) and it demonstrates exactly what you've noticed and clearly described in the Drivo1 (i.e. lag in Sim mode and repetitive lags and over-compensation/corrections in "over-unders" and short Erg mode intervals). My Direto1 also happens to be a noisier / constantly whining, stepper motor one (vs other Diretos which are somewhat quieter). Q/ You found the Drivo 2 version to be much better in Erg mode and Sim mode responses, vs the Drivo 1. Therefore, is it the same case for Direto 1 vs 2 versions? Many thanks!
I haven't used / seen a Direto 2. I think it's just another one of those "Let's call it something new" trainers like the H1->H2, that has no real physical changes. I could be wrong...
That is not the stepper motor causing that issue, it's where the Elite firmware decides to move the stepper motor to try and maintain the erg mode. The control strategy they use is terrible as it looks to have either no feedforward or just a badly calibrated FF, along with what looks like poor proportional correction and integral windup. I've had to add ramps to my intervals and use a lower gear to stop or reduce this behaviour. Very poor customer service given this can be mitigated via firmware.
Agreed on that point. As soon as you showed the oscillations, a clear case of an underdamped system. LQR controllers aren't that hard to figure out these days (or even in those days), especially for a system as well studied as the bicycle drive train. Or better yet, apply optimal control theory to the problem and be done with it. Some say Pontryagin was quite the cyclest after all...
I'd have to have a think. The Neo1/2 doesn't have native thru-axle (both use an adapter). There's also issue of the virtual tyre slip with the Neo tech. It won't be a 9.5 on the smart trainer scale for me sorry.
Out of interest more directed toward all trainers generally rather than the Drivo specifically; How/why/does flywheel speed affect the trainer performance and behaviour in ERG mode. Is that something that you could you add your lab test? Say over-unders at low flywheel speeds and then the same again at higher speeds. Reason being... I usually run my Direto 34/19+ to keep the noise down for the sleeping family. But I have noticed it behaves better when doing intervals from 150-180w up to 350w+ with higher flywheels speeds say 50/17. My feeling is because of the greater flywheel inertia, is that correct or is there more to it?
The resistance on the direto is proportional to the overlap of the magnets with the flywheel and the rpm of the flywheel. Have to keep the speed up (higher cadence or higher gear) to get the higher resistance range. Basic engineering. It's different to the kickr and inertia has little to do with it.
Similar issues with the original Direto. I have the noisier stepping motor in mine and it's constantly adjusting even on the flat. Been waiting over a year for the elusive and promised first firmware upgrade but doesn't look as if it's ever going to arrive now. Do you think Elite are ever likely to bother?
They'll need to 'step' it up in terms of firmware updates. If issues like this can be resolved by a simple update, it'll go a long way to prolong the life of their trainers.
Got mine for £600 at Halfords.Havent tested yet due to waiting on a longer usb lead.Couldnt care less about ERG mode as Kickr(2016) had the same problem.Plus the Kickr at that time did have problems and I knew I would encounter them.Hopefully the Drivo is working well for you.
I see another smart trainier has hit the market from China Shane It's called the 'thinkrider x5" not exactly cheap a priduct with no market exposure. Sny more news on the megane ridge?
Yep, they've been in contact... then went silent. Not sure where that's at. This is typical of most contact I have.... they must watch my videos and figure out I'm not going to straight up advertise their products? :)
@@gplama Well i guess you're like the choice magazine of the bike tech gadgetry world its about unbiased evaluation of a product and a follow up review. Ive only seen one online vid by China cycle. Im temoted to buy the ridge but for Aud400 its getting into stages territory. Im not going xcadey unless they get the bugs sorted.
Hi lama, have u tried to do those 30sec over under interval at Trainerroad? Cause i experienced the same thing only in zwift. In Trainerroad, the reaction time and loggin in that accurate power in those 20sec/30sec/40sec interval is responsive and accurate.
TrainerRoad implement a little 'forward' planning with their interval changes to account for the lag in some units. If this is a Zwift only issue with the Drivo (that's not occurring with the Drivo II in Zwift), then Elite better get Zwift on the phone to sort it out.
Hi Lama, thanks for replying and for the explanation about trainerriad. I got my drivo in Jan2018. I started with TR for all my erg mode workouts before trying out zwift in Dec2018. I shared my "frustration" in doing my erg workout in zwift as especially in those shorter interval. Some friends of mine who use drivo have the same "laggy" experience in zwift too. But even those who uses wahoo kickr (latest generation) also find that doing shorter interval in TR is more responsive than in zwift.
@@gplama very cool that you took the time to reply. I understand, tbh I was hoping someone from the community might have a stance. After watching your video and looking at the review on the Derito OPS2 I'm moving away from this unit. Still conflicted as when its working the Flux met my needs!
Hi, does anyone know if you can manually change resistance levels during a workout with this. Eg controlling your own interval training resistance levels higher and lower at any time? I want this trainer but I don't want to have a set resistance, I want to control my own as and when I wish. Your help I'm answering is much appreciated. Thank you.
Thanks for the quick reply mate. I currently have the Tacx Booster but in my flat it makes a lot of noise. I'm looking for a smart direct drive trainer that can change resistance when I choose. The Drivo is on sale where I live and it interests me, but I dont want to spend money if I won't be able to workout the way I like to. I can't find anything on the internet about it. Do you know if this trainer can be used with the Wahoo Fitness app? I was looking at the Wahoo Kickr Core but that unit seems to develop a lot of faults I'm hearing.
@@Masimo_Yovanni In theory this will work with the Wahoo Fitness app. I wouldn't stress about what's online about the Core. Mine has been fine. Buy local, you'll be supported should anything go wrong.
Have you configured the power source as the trainer (Drivo) or pedals (Assioma)? If pedals then could this affect/increase the resistance lag? I have similar issues with my Direto so I disable ERG for intervals under 1 minute, it takes so long for the resistance to level out otherwise. Had been telling myself it was Zwift setting the resistance and therefore not a fault of the trainer but sounds like it is after watching this. Still a great trainer IMO but I've not tried others. Hopefully Elite get their act together and give us a firmware update to fix this but i'll not hold my breath on that.
@@cliveweir That's another rabbit hole to dive down for sure. Let's say that resolved the power issues.... having to use a $$ bike power meter to make a $$ trainer work properly isn't ideal.
I don't know if this is the trainer or the software but I notice that TrainerRoad is far more progressive than Zwift when it comes to ERG mode. Maybe the trainer could do it by itself, but it sounds like a trivial issue to mitigate on the software side, just adjust resistance progressively.
@@gplama Hi Shane, thanks for the video. I've recently bought a Direto and I'm definitely getting the same infuriating issues. Elite are fully aware of this problem and seem to be doing absolutely nothing to change it. There is a pedal smoothing option via their app but by their own admission this doesn't change anything in the unit itself it just smoothes the output that you see. So it doesn't actually stop the fluctuations it just looks like they're gone but you can still feel them. Elite are telling customers that the fluctuations are in response to the normal power fluctuations from one pedal stroke to the next and these are just picked up more by their 'super accurate' power sensor. But then clearly the units lack the speed of the stepper motor to make adjustments to keep up. If you do use the power smoothing it increases the lag time even further and decreases the power accuracy. All in all I'm gutted I bought this product I do 99% of my workouts using ERG mode and this issue means they are really tough to complete. I would absolutely avoid any Elite product until this issue has been verifiably resolved.
Elite’s strong points are on hardware. Maybe they should allso put more effort on software. I have many dificulties to manage resolving how to calibrate the trainer. And by doing so it didn’t manage to do it conpleatly rather it mess it little off wattage now. App and tude videos havent helped. I don’t understand theyr app fully and when there is not posible to update or reset back to industry spech. I’m like😗♾🤔And there is non forum helping either.
Were all these tests done in Zwift? It's notoriously lousy in controlling the elite trainers in both sim and erg modes. You might be reviewing the zwift interface/control to the trainer rather than the trainer itself.
Sure. Although all my tests are done in Zwift (it's where I've made the Lama Lab Test) and the Drivo II, Direto, and Zumo all show better control in short ERG efforts.
@@carlosflanders518 Indeed, no issues with VeloReality or BigRingVR... Rouvy on the other hand ramps up the Drivo's resistance briefly after I stop and get going again.
I could swear that my Drivo shows comparable delays in Zwift, Xert and Elites's home-breed MyEtraining app, being controlled by any of 2 notebooks (Windows/Mac) via 2 ANT+ dongles or Android phone having builtin ANT+ or Garmin Edge. Elite support asked me to perform test session in MyEtraining app, showing same delays. There are different hardware revisions of the trainer after all, each having individual firmware revision. My Drivo has 3rd hardware revision and ungreased belt from the factory.
Have you seen the Stac Halcyon!?!? hahah! ;) Just kidding Stac team... (I always give them hell on this). The Drivo is a tool, I look it at it as another trainer now days. When it first came out yes, it was a Dyson.
Excellent use of the drill to illustrate the stepper motor workings, I got the idea instantly whereas an explanation of stepper motors would have been confusing, nice one !!
Yes, well... to be honest I was not sure what the drill was about. Stepper motor's core idea is that it can rotate at precise angle in small steps, which in turn can be translated into stepped linear motion as needed to move the magnets closer to the resistance wheel in the trainer. I don't see how the drill helps with understanding that... at least from the technical point of view.
The way they USE the step motor to move the magnets/resistance is with a worm screw thingy. That moves in and out. Like a drill.... it's not a perfect analogy... or demonstration... But the Internet...where of course I'm wrong (and spreading misinformation...etc.. which I've been accused of). ;)
@@gplama did you do the test with at least 39-17 or lower? Big chainring is out of the question for this trainer. I don't mind the small fluctuations because real group or races are about fluctuations. Also, the trainer seems to have faster response in bluetooth mode compared to ant+. I like the feeling better using Bluetooth.
As a time trialist 95% of all my intervals are over 3 mins. I have +700 hours on Drivo, no any single problem with longer intervals, but those under 30 secs are simply impossible... I 100% agree with Shane here.
me too. But 20 second intervals are retarded in concept.
Shane I don't know why but I just realized that yours is the only channel that I click on every single video posted ... keep it up man !
Awesome! Thanks.
@@gplama The perfect mix of "data/science" and ACTUAL "feel/use". The only channel I've found on just about any topic that does this.
Me too. I don't even actually own a smart trainer or half the stuff you talk about, I just enjoy watching you talk about it. And when I do decide to buy something, I know I'll have all the necessary knowledge to buy the best for my specific needs.
The Direto was my 1st trainer purchase. I noticed what you explained in this video right away. Talked to the folks where I purchased it and returned it and purchased a Kickr 2016 2nd gen and have been very happy. Over 15,000 km issue free. Great video and use of props.
I'd love to see some more re-visit lab tests of legacy trainers like the original Kickr, the 2016 Kickr, Kinetic Rock N' Roll etc. Great content as always Shane.
That explains what I was feeling. Thought every smart trainer had it. (only had the flux that broke down before it) You do learn to ride it though. You have to really ease into the intervals with erg mode. Racing in zwift I turn sim-mode off completely. Still happy with the buy. Number 1 priority was power accuracy. Though now you got me wanting more. I'll wait for the neo 2 to be on sale.
When I bought mine in late 2018, at just > 1/2 normal price, I complained to Elite about the problem of poor power control in steady state erg mode and in short timed intervals. I felt like a bit of whinger. After contacting them on numerous occasions they said the oscillations were normal. I just cracked on and worked with it. Thanks for showing this up. My legs did not lie! I doubt they would do a firm wear update. That would mean reduced new unit sales. :D
Thank you so much! Your scientificish breakdown saved me from spending my few bucks on buying a used drivo. Awesome! Nice prop 😀
If you can locate a DiretoX (or XR) on sale, they're a much better option. I'm riding an XR as I'm typing this (doing more power meter tests).
Initially I bought this unit for the power accuracy of +- 0.5% but after using the Elite Drivo ii for two weeks I am forced to return it.
1. Whenever I pause in ERG mode and then resume the workout, for some unknown reason the unit applies maximum resistance and I am unable to continue. At this point, the only solution is to get off the bike, unplug the machine, and restart the entire workout which costs precious training time.
2. Despite being advertised as 3 times faster than its predecessor, the unit takes 15-20 seconds to change resistance in ERG mode. Even for slight changes, say 150 watts to 250 watts, this lag is present essentially rendering ERG mode unusable. This is simply not acceptable for a trainer that costs $1,200.
3. In addition to the lag mentioned in (2), the unit overshoots and undershoots power in ERG mode and is not steady. For example, if I am going from 150 watts at 90 RPM to 250 watts at 100 RPM, when I increase my cadence, the unit initially drops power well below 150 watts (I assume it thinks that I am overshooting the current set power) and only after 5 seconds or so it will get used to the new cadence and slowly ramp up to 250 watts, thus compounding the lag and making ERG mode worthless.
4. Finally, even while keeping steady cadence in ERG mode, the resistance can sometimes drastically increase or decrease at random. For example if I am at 150watts for an interval and then jump to 300watts, for the first 5 to 8 seconds it will stay consistently at 400+watts, which ruins the interval and makes it difficult to continue. Furthermore, as explained in (3), when doing longer intervals, say at 200watts, the resistance sometimes can rocket to 230watts and then suddenly drop to below 200 watts and then settle to 230w again, which ruins the interval since it adds even more time to the lag.
5. I cannot connect to Zwift properly using Bluetooth Smart FTMS.
6. Using the “Upgrado” app by Elite srl does not fix anything.
This is a high end and expensive trainer and unfortunately basic things don’t work. It seems that I have experienced every single problem that other users in these comments have complained about. Elite advertises this unit as 3x faster than before but this is not the case. I do not want to deal with Elite to get them to fix the ERG mode issues as I believe that at a price of $1,200, a trainer should simply work as advertised and there is no indication that they will be able to fix the max resistance issue (1) when pausing ERG mode. I will be returning it and buying the Saris H3 or Wahoo Kickr.
Thanks for reading.
Thanks Shane really pleased , i have been using Drivo since November 2015 (2016),, thought i was going crazy as ERG mode is a nightmare ( given up trying ERG ) just too slow to respond , you hit the nail on the head when explaining this trainer , i have not tried any others so think its time to upgrade , especially as i want to race on Zwift ,,, little tip for any one who has one its better to have settings at 50% if climbing ( less chance of those magnets gripping the fly wheel and stopping you from even being able to turn pedals )..
gary cooper spiral of death!
I wish you had done that test 2 years ago and had noticed the ERG mode problem :-\ I hate those fluctuations, and once they told me on the forums that it was because of fluctuation of *my* cadence, even if I was sticking to 90 +/-1 rpm ! When you go up/down by 50-100W on the power you're supposed to maintain, it kills you, physically and mentally.
So... only about 1.5/2 months to train indoor before the weather turns OK here, so I won't buy anything new this year, but I will for the next indoor season.
Hi mate! I'm ""glad"" to read your comment because
i understand that I'm not the only user feeling like inside a community for people "with serious problems" to use Elite products especially with Direto/Drivo, Direto II in my exact case. I went from Rampa by Elite that it was really much stable without problems about power fluctuations. Euh, the problem of the Rampa instead was the continuos lost of connection with the sensors, and nothing to do: weak electronic card on the Rampa. So i get a Direto II hoping to train better. I am Italian but I am a little ashamed of how they are taking the problems of their products lightly, those who buy foreign products do well. So they have not yet released a new firmware, they also say that it is not possible, but what engineers are there in Elite? Ouch O_o
@@DjEvolux "I am Italian but I am a little ashamed of how they are taking the problems of their products lightly"
Bro, at least the designs look pretty sexy.
I have the device, it is about two years now, and I confirm all your saying. After two years, you may also do some mechanics to avoid the belt noise, as I did today.
Thanks for the update! Was considering buying this for $699 US, but had heard that it wasn’t as reactive. Keep up the good work Shane! Cheers!
Interesting review. Lots of depth and subjective feedback. Thank you - I'm looking for a trainer, so very enlightening.
You do seem to have a thing about stepper motors. Your drill doesn't use a stepper or convey any useful analogy (other than turning).
The issues that you describe are probably more abut the mechanical application and the algorithm used to set the motor position, measuring input power vs desired input power etc.
The oscillating and decay that you describe is typical of a poorly tuned PID algorithm which exhibits overshoot, then under shoot as the system tries to settle to the required value.
With the correct mechanical setup, a stepper can easily achieve movements of just a few microns with very little backlash and so the magnets can be placed in an almost any position, no need for you to feel "steps".
Stepper systems trade off speed, accuracy, backlash, noise, power consumption, heat output, price etc. At the RRPs of trainers, I can see no reason for compromise! This ain't rocket science or expensive to do right.
There is plenty of info on-line, but the main reason for using a stepper is that erm, they step! Or, if you like, can be made to move discreet amounts without the need for a feedback system. Rather than just switch the motor on, one sends a signal to a driver circuit to indicate direction, and a pulse to make it move one step in that direction. The other big plus is that they can resist movement, staying at the set position when they are not being told to rotate, exhibiting massive torque. Hence used in 3D machines, robotics etc.
I suppose that all of that dribble was supposed to imply that it seems like a poorly designed, over priced system from your review! :)
Update: Just reading other reviews, lots of agreement on PID tuning
Actually I'm quite surprise to see how accurate this unit is. I mean, almost 3 years ago, accurate power and thru axle support, not bad at all, it's just doesn't worth to buy a new one now just because we have better options at same price, but it's nice to see how good this was 3 years ago
Crazy that the motor affects the erg so much, the demonstration makes sense. Maybe would be interesting to see a histogram of the steady states drivo vs neo, another way of showing variance. Or what % of readings were outside of say 2% target (or others, ie. # of readings +-10% should be 0), could pull from CSV, and considered like a score card metric. Great reviews helps make educated purchases.
Perfect demonstration. Good that i didn't buy Drivo1 few years ago. Now i have Drivo2 which seems to be better but not perfect. I don't use much erg-mode so all the cons probably came up more in erg-mode than free ride.
Thanks for this video! Excellent review and analysis! Really really helpful. Two thumbs up! Thank you.
Lama lab results look similar to your original direto review. Great accuracy, but the first gen elite wheel on trainers' ERG mode is slow to settle after resistance changes compared to their competitors. They do all have a similar design with a motor pressing a pulley against a belt to provide resistance. Sure seems like the firmware performance changed in regards to that feedback loop of measure-adjust-measure-adjust for the drivo 2 (and direto 2?). Would have been nice if Elite made those changes available to direto 1 and drivo 1 users!
Not how the trainers work. The design is a linear stepper motor that moves permanent magnets to adjust overlap with a spinning Al disc. FUll overlap=100%, no overlap = 0%.
i have the Drivo myself, you are right intervals are nighmare specially the 10 sec. one
but you can learn how to beat the resistance motor
First any interval with 100+ cadence with 10 sec. will mess the interval you can't go suddenly increasing the cadence you will never hit the numbers
for me i go slowly let's say upto only 95 then i am on the right numbers
but let's ask the right question why in hell Elite didn't make any new firmware for it ! we paid a lot for this trainer
Great stuff as always Shane. Like several of the comments below, I too also own a Direto first gen (My 2nd one after the first one I bought had a fried board and was sent back) and this being my first ever indoor trainer (period!), I wondered if some of the things I was experiencing in Zwift both in Sim mode and my few forays into workouts using ERG mode were just something that was common to all smart trainers and Zwift, or if some of the "oddities" I was experiencing were due to my setup. I'm assuming there are a lot of internal similarities between the first gen Drivo and Direto with the likely differences being the size of the flywheel and maybe some of the programming/electronics which allow the Drivo to handle larger gradients and wattage outputs and so I'm taking what you said in your review and extrapolating a lot of that to my Direto.
I've not yet had a chance to ride any other Smart Trainer, but now I'm anxious to give a Kickr/Core or Neo a spin and see how differently they behave. The Direto will do me for now as it and Zwift have already allowed me to do more offseason cycling then ever before, but if the feel and functionality of Wahoo/Tacx (ahem, Garmin) trainers is that much better after I get a chance to play with them, I can see myself very quickly looking for a replacement for my Direto next season. Thanks a million for confirming a lot of what I was experiencing. very helpful to this indoor training neophyte.
Intervals are a pain. My particular unit is way off in accuracy and elite keep telling me its normal.. Mine is off by a long way versus Vector 3s.. Vector reporting 174 avg drivo 159.. doesn't seem normal to me.. Great video as always Shane.
Understood thank you very much shame again you do a great job your reviews are very thoughtful and detailed
Had a drivo 1 for two winter's training and coming off a cycleops powerbeam pro was initially impressed as you might expect. However after a short period of time experienced all the issues you have described. Ergo mode on the shorter vo2 max intervals was just complete sh1t. Changed to a neo 1 for this winter and it was like night and day in comparison. The neo died on me however and was replaced under warranty with the neo 2 by tacx support, even better user experience. So my advice to any one thinking of buying the drivo 1 now would be to give it a swerve, much better to get the neo 1, new or used at a discounted price or if funds allow go for the neo 2, you won't be disappointed.
How did your Neo die?
Thanks for all the hard work!
I like that thru axle adapter! Not a fan of (potentially) using what appears to be a QR to TA adapter with other trainers.
the sinus shape in controlling is defo a PID setting which needs optimalization; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
@8:10, looks like a poorly tuned PID loop, or maybe even just a PI loop to me. especially with the decreasing amplitude in the "ringing".
Edit: this could probably be helped with a firmware update (if those can be done), even more so if they decide that +/- 5W to 10W from target was acceptable.
My experience exactly. Sigh. The 'accuracy' is fine, and the averages all work out fine, but the fatigue is brutal with all the up-n-down wattages in a supposed steady-state effort. I'll get through the small remainder of the current winter in North America, but 2019-2020 looks like it'll be an expensive off season for me. :( (FWIW, I think TrainerRoad holds *slightly* better than Zwift, but its still the same basic issue)
Looks the same as when i did a bad PID tune at work lol
There has not been a firmware update for the Drivo 1 since I had mine delivered in the fall of 2017. There has been a pending promise of an update for months now. I am certainly hoping that Elite fulfill their promise soon and that it helps to correct the deficiencies you have point out.
Wouldn't hold your breath on that one, check out the elite drivo forum page on the firmware update subject. Elite support been promising but not delivering an update for over 12 months now, and since they now produce an updated version in the drivo 2 why would they? That is the reason I offloaded mine for a tacx neo.
Looking to get back into cycling this off season. My old trainer was a Dummy Wheel on trainer so all of these new-ish smart trainers are a MARJOR improvement. I have seen this as low as 455USD and wonder if this is a better deal than buying some of the higher end Wheel-ON trainers (cyops, Trac, etc).. All Suggestions are welcome
Shane, thanks a lot for the video.
I have this same issue happening to me with the Drivo || in ERG mode, not to mention that at the beginning I had big lag issues which where solved by Elite assistance using a 3rd party Android app which allows to change some parameters in the trainer, after I could prove them that there was a 10/12sec lag till the Drivo adjusted it's resistance to match to interval power.
For such a high end trainer it's unacceptable that there seems to be versions around with different firmware (you said the Drivo II you tried didn't have this problem neither the laggines) and at the moment there's no way to have a freaking official update, which I heard they've been promising since years but no news, that's why I will never again buy another Elite trainer and would advise people not to do either. Bottles and cages are good though but for trainer I'd rather give my money to Wahoo or Tacx next year.
Love to see a revisit of the low end/budget trainers complete with llama lab test as my qubo/intera is getting a bit tired. don't know whether to buy again or go for something else
Shane Did Elite make any reference to when we can expect the promised firmware update for the original Elite Drivo during your visit to their facility this year?
There was a mention of them working on an app that’ll allow firmware updates. No eta given.
probably on sale because the drivo 2 is out
Excellent review.
I just love a good rabbit hole 😏 wait, What? 🤔
Ouch... that poor PID tuning on Drivo I. It shouldn't be that hard!! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller#Manual_tuning
The oscillations and overshoot is probably due to poor tuning of the PID coefficients in the control system.
I've just bought Elite Drivo today and when connected to my Wahoo Roam the speed are reading 80mph plus. Any idea how to fix this. I'm a complete newbie. I don't have zwift yet as I'm waiting on new laptop arriving so just connected Roam to Elite trainer. Thanks in advance.
You'll need to see the wheel sensor size on the ROAM as follows: wheel circumference / 3.43. So 2096 for a 700c 23mm (iirc) becomes 611.
@@gplama worked an absolute treat. Thank you so much for your advice and very fast reply. Its really appreciated. Still scratching my head at times but hopefully we'll get there with practice.
Props for the props!
I recently bought a Drivo to replace my Real Turbo Muin. I boxed it up and sent it back after 10 minutes, it was unrideable in ERG mode and didn't feel as nice ride quality as the RTM. Elite look a nightmare to deal with too. Should have compared it with Kickr Core as similar price now.
Any chance you know of a way to get hold of elite ? My drivo just flashing blue light no power
Ugh. I wish I had seen the re visit vid 12 hours ago before buying this. First time I've ever wanted to return something before it had arrived
This made me think. When I had the Drivo I didn't care about its problems at all because I never really use the erg mode. Matter of fact I didn't even use its super accurate power meter since I have a power meter on my bike and wanted to keep things even inside and outside.
It occured to me, I don't even need a smart trainer. Just something with a good ride feel. I would sooo get a LeMond if noise wasn't an issue. I think I need cheap a direct drive non-smart trainer that is super quiet and has a great ride feel. I doubt that exists though.
The Kura and Turno from Elite are options there.... but the Lemond Revolution was/is king of the analogue trainer world!
@@gplama Yeah. If I ever move to a house again where noise isn't an issue, I think I'm going Revolution :)
Hey Shane, thanks for the review. Exactly this sine pattern is what a lot of drivo users are complaining about in the elite formus (forum.elite-it.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=78) for a long time already. Not sure whether Elite is ever going to deliver a firmware upgrade for this trainer (we are also waiting for the dual transmission upgrade for a long time already). A Pitty this ERG mode oscilation issue wasn't brought up by any other test/review before. Maybe some people would have gotten another trainer instead. Maybe you could reach out to elite for their official statement, whether they are going to fix this?
Yep, that's the thread that's on fire in the video. I've spent a whole day on this testing/video. Elite can take it or leave it as free consulting (or shitlist me for talking about my issues with their trainer). I'm moving on.
So, in late 2020 im thinking of buying one 2nd hand. Upgrading from a Tacx Vortex. Are there still issues with power jumps.?
there is a reason if the only notable news in the drivo 2 is the better response time. I 'm an happy direto user but it has the same lag problem of the drivo 1 and i suppose this will be addressed with the direto 2.
With the direto on zwift u feel the climbs with a lot of lag especially if you increase trainer difficutly value in the options. For some trainers i read that zwift can 'anticipate' incline changes in order to reduce lag, but i don't think this has been done with direto or drivo.
I bought Drivo in hope that it won't have imperfections and limitations of junior models. Just to finally find it shares the same lag problem with other Elite models ((
Me passing 15% climb in Zwift czcams.com/video/3iYIyV2FR98/video.html
When I have microbursts scheduled since I bought one of these I just don't bother any more. It's completely useless for anything under 30 seconds. Interestingly I had exactly the same problem with the Atom. Seems like anything with a stepper motor is relatively useless, makes a lot of sense now.
p.s. Wish I'd seen this before I bought mine!
Would be curious to know if the Drivo 2 uses a faster stepper motor.
Nice review. Would the Direto behave more like the Drivo or the Drivo II? I can't recall what came out when
Looking to buy one used. I fully understand your concerns about this trainer and I would be bummed about not feeling certain sections of the Zwift tracks; I am in this for the simulation. Would I see the same issues on say a Wahoo Kickr Snap wheel on trainer? I am totally new to this. Thanks
Have to ask this question I’ve been wondering it for a while might also be none of my business, are you technology/hacking lecturer at the University in Ballarat ?? Because the way explain your content is awesome
Not yet... but that's where my uni degree is from and I'm pretty proud of that. (and I like you call it Ballarat Uni... that name is gone, it's now Federation Uni).
Shane Miller - GPLama haha sorry for the wrong name !! You would be a fantastic teacher/lecturer you engage with your audience really well, I’m always wanting you to keep going down that rabbit hole and dig deeper. Love your work Shane you have inspired me to start making some videos
How does the direto compare when stabilising erg mode? I’m considering buying a direto but would like to think erg was more stable than the drivo.
Hello Shane great channel! I can get the Drivo for $699 is the Drivo worth it at that price?
No idea sorry. AU/US/NZ/? And it depends on your bike compatibility, your requirements, etc. Entirely your call.
Hello everyone, what to take in 2020:
elite drivo or
Tacx flux 2?
Just bought one and I am regretting a bit to have bought it.......... The cycle is definitely hard but doesn't seem to be as realistic. It feels harder than reality. Also I got problem with stability, the trainer moves around.
Lack of PID tuning or poor implementation of it, else it would be perfect.
Hey SM, I got a support email back from Elite... they told me it was normal, but my DrivoII looks like your 10 sec intervals. The magnet keeps seeking..... let me know if you any other tricks to try. Cheers
Not a looker, is it.
Someone said "gimme that R5-D4 looking trainer"
Dan on GCN has been training on one, maybe that's the sudden interest
Direto or Direto II? I'll assume the latter given their links with Elite for advertorial content.
Lloidy have black trainer. So it have to be drivo2 or kura.
Do the lama test with the Kickr 16!
Sorry 699 us pinarello f10 disk. Thank you Shane
If you're running an F10 disk... don't bother with mid-range dude. Neo2 / Kickr 18 / something awesome to match that awesome bike! :)
Hi Shane, you should have done this video earlier. I would not have bought this notsmart trainer. I'm having hard time to train on it since for short intervals it not holding the power properly. It definitivly not stable at all. I'm waiting for firmware update since 1 and half year.....
Best raise your concerns with Elite.
Does the wave in the power mean that you tried to maintain a constant RPM as the drag went up and down? If you responded quickly then wouldn't the power chart be flatter?
ERG requires stable rpm for best performance. You can respond quickly with force/effort... but then it does what we're seeing here on. I ride other trainers exactly the same way (also other Elite trainers) with no issue.
When are you going to put the Minoura Kagura (DD) Smart Direct Drive Trainer through the paces? I rode one yesterday at the Zwift Cafe and it was nice, super quiet.
When I can get access to one. I've tried to get a hold of one after seeing it at Interbike last year. Nothing heard back from them.
What is the difference between the Drivo and Drivo II that improves but doesn't totally solve ERG issues? That suggests that most of the hardware is the same as there is still a small issue, so is it mainly software improvements? Can any of the improvements be upgraded to the first gen Drivo?
Good questions. Elite Support are the best port of call for answers here.
Shane Miller hello which you find the most silent elte or wahoo I noticed that you have more wahoo, thanks soon.
Wahoo Kickr18/CORE are more silent across all flywheel speeds.
@@gplama thanks.
Hi Shane, Thanks for this video and drill analogy. I have a Direto (version 1) and it demonstrates exactly what you've noticed and clearly described in the Drivo1 (i.e. lag in Sim mode and repetitive lags and over-compensation/corrections in "over-unders" and short Erg mode intervals).
My Direto1 also happens to be a noisier / constantly whining, stepper motor one (vs other Diretos which are somewhat quieter).
Q/ You found the Drivo 2 version to be much better in Erg mode and Sim mode responses, vs the Drivo 1. Therefore, is it the same case for Direto 1 vs 2 versions? Many thanks!
I haven't used / seen a Direto 2. I think it's just another one of those "Let's call it something new" trainers like the H1->H2, that has no real physical changes. I could be wrong...
Thanks again!
It's compatible with disc brake bike?
Yes
That is not the stepper motor causing that issue, it's where the Elite firmware decides to move the stepper motor to try and maintain the erg mode. The control strategy they use is terrible as it looks to have either no feedforward or just a badly calibrated FF, along with what looks like poor proportional correction and integral windup. I've had to add ramps to my intervals and use a lower gear to stop or reduce this behaviour. Very poor customer service given this can be mitigated via firmware.
Agreed on that point. As soon as you showed the oscillations, a clear case of an underdamped system. LQR controllers aren't that hard to figure out these days (or even in those days), especially for a system as well studied as the bicycle drive train. Or better yet, apply optimal control theory to the problem and be done with it. Some say Pontryagin was quite the cyclest after all...
So the tacx NEO 2 Smart could get an 8 out of 10 points?Or 9.5?
I'd have to have a think. The Neo1/2 doesn't have native thru-axle (both use an adapter). There's also issue of the virtual tyre slip with the Neo tech. It won't be a 9.5 on the smart trainer scale for me sorry.
Out of interest more directed toward all trainers generally rather than the Drivo specifically; How/why/does flywheel speed affect the trainer performance and behaviour in ERG mode. Is that something that you could you add your lab test? Say over-unders at low flywheel speeds and then the same again at higher speeds.
Reason being...
I usually run my Direto 34/19+ to keep the noise down for the sleeping family. But I have noticed it behaves better when doing intervals from 150-180w up to 350w+ with higher flywheels speeds say 50/17. My feeling is because of the greater flywheel inertia, is that correct or is there more to it?
See this video where I discuss this in depth with the Kickr: czcams.com/video/uHUOhmG04M8/video.html
The resistance on the direto is proportional to the overlap of the magnets with the flywheel and the rpm of the flywheel. Have to keep the speed up (higher cadence or higher gear) to get the higher resistance range. Basic engineering. It's different to the kickr and inertia has little to do with it.
Similar issues with the original Direto. I have the noisier stepping motor in mine and it's constantly adjusting even on the flat. Been waiting over a year for the elusive and promised first firmware upgrade but doesn't look as if it's ever going to arrive now. Do you think Elite are ever likely to bother?
Oh and great explanation, thank you :)
They'll need to 'step' it up in terms of firmware updates. If issues like this can be resolved by a simple update, it'll go a long way to prolong the life of their trainers.
What would you consider a really good deal Shane....Halfords price is £650 currently?
Got mine for £600 at Halfords.Havent tested yet due to waiting on a longer usb lead.Couldnt care less about ERG mode as Kickr(2016) had the same problem.Plus the Kickr at that time did have problems and I knew I would encounter them.Hopefully the Drivo is working well for you.
I see another smart trainier has hit the market from China Shane
It's called the 'thinkrider x5" not exactly cheap a priduct with no market exposure. Sny more news on the megane ridge?
Yep, they've been in contact... then went silent. Not sure where that's at. This is typical of most contact I have.... they must watch my videos and figure out I'm not going to straight up advertise their products? :)
@@gplama Well i guess you're like the choice magazine of the bike tech gadgetry world its about unbiased evaluation of a product and a follow up review. Ive only seen one online vid by China cycle. Im temoted to buy the ridge but for Aud400 its getting into stages territory. Im not going xcadey unless they get the bugs sorted.
Is this worth buying in 2022 for £180?
No
Hi lama, have u tried to do those 30sec over under interval at Trainerroad? Cause i experienced the same thing only in zwift. In Trainerroad, the reaction time and loggin in that accurate power in those 20sec/30sec/40sec interval is responsive and accurate.
TrainerRoad implement a little 'forward' planning with their interval changes to account for the lag in some units. If this is a Zwift only issue with the Drivo (that's not occurring with the Drivo II in Zwift), then Elite better get Zwift on the phone to sort it out.
Hi Lama, thanks for replying and for the explanation about trainerriad. I got my drivo in Jan2018. I started with TR for all my erg mode workouts before trying out zwift in Dec2018. I shared my "frustration" in doing my erg workout in zwift as especially in those shorter interval. Some friends of mine who use drivo have the same "laggy" experience in zwift too. But even those who uses wahoo kickr (latest generation) also find that doing shorter interval in TR is more responsive than in zwift.
My flux is broken (again) should I upgrade to this? Can't afford the Neo 2 upgrade
I tend not to do consulting on exactly what to buy. Entirely your call.
@@gplama very cool that you took the time to reply. I understand, tbh I was hoping someone from the community might have a stance. After watching your video and looking at the review on the Derito OPS2 I'm moving away from this unit. Still conflicted as when its working the Flux met my needs!
So mister Shane, please tell us The highest score number trainer from The market. Wich model would be?
If I had a straight and easy answer, I'd be wearing the company shirt.
@@gplama one of The model can be wahoo kicker 4.0?😊
Hi, does anyone know if you can manually change resistance levels during a workout with this. Eg controlling your own interval training resistance levels higher and lower at any time? I want this trainer but I don't want to have a set resistance, I want to control my own as and when I wish.
Your help I'm answering is much appreciated. Thank you.
Manual control level mode. I believe the Elite MeETraining app will do this.
Thanks for the quick reply mate. I currently have the Tacx Booster but in my flat it makes a lot of noise. I'm looking for a smart direct drive trainer that can change resistance when I choose. The Drivo is on sale where I live and it interests me, but I dont want to spend money if I won't be able to workout the way I like to. I can't find anything on the internet about it.
Do you know if this trainer can be used with the Wahoo Fitness app? I was looking at the Wahoo Kickr Core but that unit seems to develop a lot of faults I'm hearing.
@@Masimo_Yovanni In theory this will work with the Wahoo Fitness app. I wouldn't stress about what's online about the Core. Mine has been fine. Buy local, you'll be supported should anything go wrong.
Have you configured the power source as the trainer (Drivo) or pedals (Assioma)? If pedals then could this affect/increase the resistance lag?
I have similar issues with my Direto so I disable ERG for intervals under 1 minute, it takes so long for the resistance to level out otherwise. Had been telling myself it was Zwift setting the resistance and therefore not a fault of the trainer but sounds like it is after watching this. Still a great trainer IMO but I've not tried others. Hopefully Elite get their act together and give us a firmware update to fix this but i'll not hold my breath on that.
I never use power matching to test trainers.
Have you noticed a difference when using power matching? I use it so interested in your opinion.. maybe a good comparison video
@@cliveweir That's another rabbit hole to dive down for sure. Let's say that resolved the power issues.... having to use a $$ bike power meter to make a $$ trainer work properly isn't ideal.
I don't know if this is the trainer or the software but I notice that TrainerRoad is far more progressive than Zwift when it comes to ERG mode. Maybe the trainer could do it by itself, but it sounds like a trivial issue to mitigate on the software side, just adjust resistance progressively.
So does the Elite Direto (1 & 2) work this same way??
Yes. But better, it seems.
@@gplama Hi Shane, thanks for the video. I've recently bought a Direto and I'm definitely getting the same infuriating issues. Elite are fully aware of this problem and seem to be doing absolutely nothing to change it. There is a pedal smoothing option via their app but by their own admission this doesn't change anything in the unit itself it just smoothes the output that you see. So it doesn't actually stop the fluctuations it just looks like they're gone but you can still feel them. Elite are telling customers that the fluctuations are in response to the normal power fluctuations from one pedal stroke to the next and these are just picked up more by their 'super accurate' power sensor. But then clearly the units lack the speed of the stepper motor to make adjustments to keep up. If you do use the power smoothing it increases the lag time even further and decreases the power accuracy. All in all I'm gutted I bought this product I do 99% of my workouts using ERG mode and this issue means they are really tough to complete. I would absolutely avoid any Elite product until this issue has been verifiably resolved.
Thanks for drilling down into what was happening there. OK I'm sorry
Elite’s strong points are on hardware. Maybe they should allso put more effort on software. I have many dificulties to manage resolving how to calibrate the trainer. And by doing so it didn’t manage to do it conpleatly rather it mess it little off wattage now. App and tude videos havent helped. I don’t understand theyr app fully and when there is not posible to update or reset back to industry spech. I’m like😗♾🤔And there is non forum helping either.
Were all these tests done in Zwift? It's notoriously lousy in controlling the elite trainers in both sim and erg modes. You might be reviewing the zwift interface/control to the trainer rather than the trainer itself.
Sure. Although all my tests are done in Zwift (it's where I've made the Lama Lab Test) and the Drivo II, Direto, and Zumo all show better control in short ERG efforts.
For some reason Zwift plays very poorly with many Elite trainers. There are some large threads on the forums about it. Other apps work much better.
Using ERG mode in Golden Cheetah, I don't have this issue. Power stays within 5 watts
@@carlosflanders518 Indeed, no issues with VeloReality or BigRingVR... Rouvy on the other hand ramps up the Drivo's resistance briefly after I stop and get going again.
I could swear that my Drivo shows comparable delays in Zwift, Xert and Elites's home-breed MyEtraining app, being controlled by any of 2 notebooks (Windows/Mac) via 2 ANT+ dongles or Android phone having builtin ANT+ or Garmin Edge.
Elite support asked me to perform test session in MyEtraining app, showing same delays.
There are different hardware revisions of the trainer after all, each having individual firmware revision. My Drivo has 3rd hardware revision and ungreased belt from the factory.
Shane sorry!
What a horrific design , if I took that to my house I’d get an unmerciful slap
Oh and surely this is the ugliest, chunkiest trainer on the market ? Your views ?
Have you seen the Stac Halcyon!?!? hahah! ;) Just kidding Stac team... (I always give them hell on this). The Drivo is a tool, I look it at it as another trainer now days. When it first came out yes, it was a Dyson.