Revisiting Greek Automata: Clockwork Robots from the Ancient World
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- čas přidán 17. 11. 2023
- In this video, we revisit my modern take on Hero's automaton and talk about the automata-making tradition in antiquity.
Dr. Grillos Edition of Hero's Automata: theses.gla.ac.uk/76774/7/2019...
My earlier video on automata: • Reconstructing 'Hero's...
Click Spring's Antikythera mechanism video: • The Antikythera Mechan...
My context on Architekton, quotes from Pappus of Alexandria, and of Philo's funding by the Ptolomies comes from 'Greek Science After Aristotle' by G.E.R Lloyd, especially its chapter "Applied Mechanics and Technology" though this book also contains a chapter on Ptolomy and ancient astronomy
I got information about water clocks and the work of Philo of Byzantium from 'The Handbook of Ancient Water Technology' provided by Archive.org, this contains a section entitled 'Theoretical Hydraulics, Automata, and Water Clocks' written by Michael Lewis: archive.org/details/handbooko...
a digital copy of Cicero's Dialogue 'De Re Publica' which contains the account of Archimedes' Sphere www.gutenberg.org/files/54161...
I do love that the greeks really just built tons of doohickies and thingamabobs
I bet some of the rich folk had really cool stuff..
Like, take the concept of this machine to the realm of silk thread and balsawood models...
The Greeks famously loved thingidy things
congratulations on successfully exorcizing the ghost of Hero of Alexandria haunting you for making poor reproductions of his work, now you just gotta deal with the ghost of Hero of Alexandria haunting you for calling his skinny guy slow
Before long you will have automata helping you in your shop and patrolling the property like Hephaestus himself. Make sure to offer him a libation. Also if your base were wider I think your device would be much more stable.
Honoring Hephaestus and widening the base is solid advice, I feel like Hero would probably tell me exactly that if I showed him my work! I think its really cool how ancient makers like Hero brought little pieces of Olympus into their workshops, I imagine his workshop would have been an incredible sight to see!
funnily enough, this reminded me of the Dwemer. Complex automata, little to no explanation on how they’re made
We need a mod that adds this build to the game.
you're forgetting about their mastery of tonal magics 😤
@@athena5573 singing to build stuff is just op
Also the whole wondermaking aspect - belief in the power of mathematics and craftsmanship and doing that as a devotional thing. The Dwemer have a very different relationship to their gods than the Greeks did, but you can see shades of inspiration in Greek astronomy and how they track their divines’ physical paths across the stars.
I love how in the previous video, you mentioned Vitruvius didn't think automata were serious enough to translate and pass on, then this video starts with basically describing most automata as dancing and singing statues. I've now got this vision of some very serious and lauded engineer presenting their translation of a very technical text on accurate timekeeping, having someone admit their favorite part was learning how the dolls in Disneyland's "It's a Small World" ride work, and the engineer just angrily striking that part of the text from future editions so people will learn about the point they were trying to make XD
These videos continue to be not just extremely interesting but somehow double as my therapy?
Thanks! these are the kind of comments that keep me going 😂
I am struggling to understand how this video has so little views. Really cool concept and execution!
Thanks!
Give it time. Word will get out. Awesome video!
If you ever go to Athens you should visit the museum of ancient Greek technology it has things like that, I think you would like it
"though we may risk breaking the sound barrier "
😆
fascinating video thank you !!
knowing that people were making stuff like this almost 3000 years ago is so inspirational as someone with modern technology. it's like, if you can do this with wood, imagine what i can do with a 3d printer. it's also really relaxing and satisfying to watch the woodworking. this is one of the best youtube channels i've found
Thank you! I find their creativity inspiring as well!
ok, so the lead weight is the power: as it falls it pulls the ropes that move the wheels. The seeds, and the hourglass, are the timing mechanism. The lead rests on top of the seeds, and it falls as fast as the seeds fall down. You control the speed of the automaton by controlling the speed of the lead, which is limited to the timing of the hourglass.
The fastest speed should be to just let the lead do a free fall.
Using the sand level in the hourglass as an escape mechanism is so ingenious! Now that I think about it you should be able to use a buoy in a water clock in the same manner, but with the buoy tied to a string that goes down to the water clock... Which is just what modern toilets do to close the water flow after you flush XD
thats it! i think youd really like Ctesibius's water clock. its mechanical components are powered by buoyancy in a very similar way to what you suggest!
Egypt did many things with "sand hydraulics", e.g. erecting obelisks without a crane, or locking up pyramid entries with heavy stone blocks.
Ever since the first automaton video i was really hoping that you would make another, and i can surely say that this did not dissapoint.
The craftsmanship was beautiful, and it was increadible to see, the final result move at such ridiculous speeds.
Thank you! Im really glad you liked it! I had alot of fun making it and definitely plan on making more, Im especially eager to experiment with some of those pneumatic automata! Im thinking I might break the next one into a short series of videos so that its not quite as long between uploads!
This is SO COOL. I've watched Chris from Clickspring's Antikythera Mechanism videos from the start, and it's amazing, but this is something that MOVES and is made from bits of wood and some copper. You need some serious expertise to make the AM, but you showed that with just some little woodworking skill, you can make a 2000-year-old ROBOT. I definitely agree the slower speed looks more 'alive'- tentative, deliberate and just the way something unfamiliar with its environment might move.
Thanks! I really love these greek machines. Like you say, anyone with some wood can make one! it really makes me wonder how wide spread of a phenomenon they might have been!
Please pass the butter. Splendid! Now turn 180 degrees and return butter. Marvelous!
Why do I exist
To serve the butter
Oh god
Fraser, I have spent the last 5 and a half hours binge watching your content. I absolutely love you and everything you have created. You have renewed my interest in ancient history, alchemy and automations. Thank you.
Excellent video. Talking about relevant history as you show crafting tasks. That's a mood. The downtime is just right, too.
Thank you!
I think the part that amazes me most is the way code is physically manifested by those pegs on the axles. It basically operates on two trinary bits of data.
I'm pretty sure that using a 3d printer, or adding fur with a sew machine would fine with any ghosts hanging around, as they didn't seem to mind the camera or recording / editing software. What is the future direction? brick works? ceramics, or other materials? This covers the earth element, gravity and friction, what about air, water, or fire next? pneumatics, perhaps? In my youth, I worked on pneumatic computers that controlled propulsion boilers using force balancing to make their analog calculations, in our navy rating badges, hero's boiler was right there front and center. =D Happy Monday!
I was on tenterhooks worrying about the sound barrier issue! Glad you squeaked by.
An advice on sanding some areas:
get a belt sander abrasive and cut it into strips of suitable size. Modify them so they attach to the jewler's saw(or just use a clip to clamp onto a specific length and use the clip as the pin that fits into the saw). With this "sanding saw" you can easily create round surfaces of desired curvature(by adjusting the slack), and sand certain hard-to-reach areas by modifiying the tool. You may be suprised by the efficiency of this device, as its like a sand paper compared to a sanding square.
I use an "L" shaped branch for the frame. I cut an acute slit on one end of the L, so that when the sanding belt is put in and pulled, friction clamps it tight. The other end has a curvature where the belt passes over and onto the other side of the L. In use I simply pull the desired length(slack) and grip the side of the L, locking the belt in my grip.
If you decide to revisit this again (perhaps to make a version that flips the hourglass to reset itself), I would recommend you try making the hopper (hourglass) wider and shorter to lower its center of gravity, thus making it more stable.
Widening the frame would also allow for a wider axle and larger wheels, which could make for longer or more precise programs and increased traction.
If you geared it, you might be able to get it to go further or faster (gearing was definitely known, as evidenced by the Antikythera device, as well as perhaps chain drives from some ballista designs).
You might even be able to get the automaton to navigate a predetermined maze, which would have been really cool event for the ancients to watch - like modern robotics competitions.
Watching this too late at night to think of something clever to say. Nicely done.
The ‘programming’ was mind-blowing, this is wonderfully done
Thank you!
not only a great show of craftsmanship, but an excellent and interesting ancient history lesson!
always love experimental archaeology. keep it up, very informative, yet also entertaining
Thank you!
Man the quality of production increased dramatically over the last months! Really good work, and you also offer a great insight on the history of the inventions and the way to make them. You have a new subscriber
Thank you! :) I'm trying to make each video a little better than the last!
My comments on the last Hero video largely stand, but on this what stuck out to me is the amount of 'sand' that remains once it has stopped moving. A tighter fit between the weight and the interior of the hourglass, plus maybe some brushes around the lower part of the weight, would gain more energy from the reservoir.
As always, amazing work!
to make lead sand you melt lead in a tin with a lid with a small hole on top you heat the tin with pieces of lead above a fire until the lead has melted, and then you shake or turn the tin in a circular motion because the lead is in constant movement it will solidify in tiny beads giving you lead sand perfect for hourglasses.
Yeah holy dang, this is an aesthetic and a half that I absolutely want to use for an ancient Artificer in a TTRPG game. These two automata videos were super neat, informative, and very fun. Very inspiring stuff for my writing. Thanks a ton!
I haven't read any of Hero's works, but I couldn't help but think about how a bigger automaton would be able to get more range without looking like a grain silo on wheels. This is what springs to mind:
Obviously this shouldn't be for demo purposes and gets more into optimization than is necessary for an automaton of this caliber, but I think you could multiply the operation time by using another one of Hero's mechanisms, a block-and-tackle, to the weight in reverse. That is, pulling the wheels with the string that is normally pulled by hand and letting the weight naturally fall where it would normally be lifted.
Thanks to the square-cube law, a lead weight with twice as much mass wouldn't be twice as large on every axis but could power an automaton for twice as long, as long as you throw in extra weight to account for friction.
A large panel-shaped piece of lead could be fixed directly to the bottom half of the tackle and placed in a wide hourglass, making a squat platform that's capable of pulling much more string than its height would imply. I wouldn't be surprised if Hero himself did this.
I love your suggestions! hero includes a short section on extending the automatons range where he describes using a pulley for advantage along with a suggestion to simply increase the wheel size and decrease the axle size. I think I might have to make another with the pulleys for mechanical advantage, larger wheels, and with a heavier weight! (or maybe a catapult spring instead!)
Your accurate freehand use of hand tools only is very cool. So many people are completely dependent on power tools nowadays.
This is amazing, love your work! Even without the background music it's very easy to get lost in the information and ages of time.
So glad you kept at it and had success!
You have singlehandedly dusted off my childhood fascination with greek automata after not thinking about it for like ten years
This video is truly gorgeous (along with the original), I've rewatched it like ten times over the last couple weeks
You make some of the coolest videos I've ever seen
Dudeeee your channel is a treasure!
Thank you!
I usually try to come up wirh something witty when I write a comment, but I'd just like to sincerely thank you for showing this off, they're fascinating.
I am certain your channel will blow up. Good work man.
Absolutely fascinating!
Very Cool! Nice Job! I love this kind of stuff.
Interesting subject, excellent camera work, sound and editing. 👍 You got yourself a new subscriber.
Absolutely mind blowing.
I love your content ❤
One advice i have for the weight/sandglas assembly. I noticed the lead weight is sinking into the seeds. I may be good to mount a plate to it's bottom so that it wont sink that far into the seeds.
I wish you all thr best for your Channel and yourself!
I'd love to see more about spheres and other such devices.
Great content ! Thank you.
What a beautiful video
Please do more😊
I now want to see this principal used to make a self-moving Dr Who Dalek. Having a wider bottom would probably make it even more stable.
Thisis so cool, to see what Hero might have actually made!
Worked on a few projects like this years ago. A bird that never repeats a sequence of motion, even running forever, 100 moving parts, copper, overdoor wall mounted. It was all designed but never completed, it was canceled. Only did practice projects before that, it was going to be my first complet work.
You mentioned pneumatic moving devices not being a thing - with access to ancient tools and a knowledge of the technologies they had access to, I’d like to challenge you to make the leap that could have been made.
The ancients knew about the power of pistons, hydraulics, heated air, and even had a steam turbine - imagine if someone with an interest in movement accidentally got their hydraulic device too close to a heat source and discovered it supercharged their design, and then had a Eureka moment.
I imagine they’d try to make a sort of kettle and piston-powered device like the French Cugnot, followed by a steam chariot of sorts, with a bronze steaming “horse” automaton pulling it. That would have impressed plenty of citizens in a parade if it worked.
This is like a game of Inventor's Telephone. Translations and interpreters resulting in an invention likely different than what was originally made, but still pretty close conceptually! Amazing work on this project!
Adding a "drive pulley" system to the top to multiply your motion would be a massive benefit. The weight would drive the center shaft with a certain amount of string on it driving two larger wheels on the outside edges. (Dumbbell-shaped.) String would then be wrapped around those wheels leading down to the drive axles. Basically like how old clocks would "gear up" weights to run for days at a time.
Always great to hear someone mention Clickspring and his Antikythera project. Maybe you should try and see if you can collab with him!
Amazing…. Absolutely brilliant…. Thank you for keeping this ancient wisdom alive brother
bro I think this is an incredible feat in engineering, but the structure is too tall and the base too narrow, hence its wobbling and tendency to fall over. I'd make the base 2-3 times wider in radius and keep the whole upper part, that should provide uncompromising stability, allowing more certainty in its movement and turns, and even faster speeds. Please don't take it as complaining, what you achieved is thousands times more than I'd ever be able to, I'm only saying ideas out loud. I absolutely respect your Work ( :) ) and love your channel!
I really think youre right! I dont know what got into to me to make it so narrow, especially with that lead weight being wayyyy up there. Hero's was definitely significantly larger in both dimensions. (Especially as his ran on three wheels without problems whereas mine needs four to keep from tipping over!) Im certain his ran alot smoother. my next automaton will have a wider base I promise!
@@fraserbuilds I'm sorry man, I should have commented it earlier, I noticed this in the first video immediately. Good luck, you got it! See you in r/alc ;).
I think a plate on the base of the lead weight that fills the hourglass container will help. Any thistle seed not below the weight is wasted.
Wow this is so cool! I can't believe I've never heard of this before
these videos are incredible!
Thank you!
I love hearing about our ancestors. It just shows how little we've changed, if at all. We are still making automata. Just now, we have electricity and binary logic.
Larger wheels and wider base would improve the design A lot, I think! Well done!
Really well made!😍👍
Thank you!!
This is fascinating.
This makes me wonder what kinds of mechanical automata we could make with our modern technology, materials and knowledge.
Great work, Kid!
Fascinating videos! When nimble fingers are paired with an intelligent and inquisitive mind, anything is possible.
Something you might want to consider is to build yourself a simple lathe, with which you can turn parts made of wood and soft metals. Once completed, use it to build a better lathe.
I know that might sound silly and redundant, but consider this: each iteration of the lathe you build will gain accuracy. The rudimentary round parts you can machine at first will evolve into higher precision parts with each retooling.
Once you can turn round parts with even a moderate degree of accuracy, give you wheels, pulleys, and especially your axles another go. With more precision, you can make your automata glide like an ice skater.
(Oh, by the way… Congrats on gaining another subscriber! Keep up the good work!)
I just... I feel like more people need to see this!!
Great video man
How have you not got more Subscribers these videos are gold🤷🏼♂️👍❤️
Thanks!
idea for next augmentation: using a buoyant force instead of gravity. i bet you could implement some neat new features if you threw a pythagorean siphon in to the mix.
Oh man, just came here from the older video about this! I've always wondered how far we could advance old machinery with current understanding (mostly in regard to old steam engines and weapons like catapults). I didn't know they had build automatons so far ago, until now! And would love to see how they could be improved, with the technology available back then!
(though of course, taking this too far would just land us where we are now lol)
2:32 Reminds me of the "robot" that was I think built in Turkey during the middle ages, that could apparently play chess.
Excellent
Amazing channel. Subbed & sharing.
Thank you!
just found your channel and holy shit do i love it
Thank you! :)
Great job!
Thank you!
been binge watching your content all evening, absolutely love your vids. if you ever decide to go back to the automata at some stage could you make a human-like automata that can do a simple task rather than just move around?
Super Weird, I love your channel and Content, Subbed and got updates for like a week, then the Algorithm must have got grumpy and nothing. Here's a comment to bless the channel! 😊👍
Thank you! I dont think the algorithm is a big fan of my infrequent uploads 😅 Some friends have told me youtube doesent send them notifications when I upload, which seems strange, but I suppose the algorithm does what it does😭
@@fraserbuilds definitely does! Unique comments and replies also seem to help a lot. I am no expert by any means, in leu of regular long format you could always recut your content into 1 minutes shorts and upload that on a semi regular basis. The algo doesn't seem to care about video length but that way you will get more circulation.
Keep up the good work! 🔥
Thanks for the advice! I think I'll give that a shot :)
you can boost its gitery and range by tranding the sand for a huge gear multiplyer
Awesome video! I can't even imagine the type of automata they made if it was the same people that made the antikythera mechanism.... :o
Very impressive!
Thank you!
Awesome!
Could you make the spools on the wheels a smaller diameter so you get more turns out of them?
You could then make multiple turns of string between each dividing pin for direction changes.
Also, you could make the wheels larger for extra distance!
Great project!
yes! Hero actually says to do exactly that to extend the range of the automaton! though he doesent tell us how big his automatons wheels were, I wouldnt be suprised if they were over 3 times the diameter of mine
Pretty freakin cool. They really used all the tech they had to its fullest!!!
It reminds me of my old “robosapian” toy, except thousands of years old, and made by hand, with less fart noises, and more seeds.
I think the poles should've been spread like a tripod and attached to a wider base for more stable operation.
Methinks using pulleys with a ratio in them could extend the runtime.
Ain't no way I find this channel soon after dreaming about a stone golem named Apollo that I've now been having an unnatural urge to create.
That sounds like a greek legend, be very careful if any talking animals or exceptionally beautiful women show up.
Great work! Bigger wheels relative to the axle width would increase speed. I think a larger build in general would help improve the weight/counterweight ratio and improve traction. A wider base would improve stability. Maybe leather straps around the wheel rims to improve traction.
Im not sure how familiar the ancient greek were with pulleys, but something tells me that they would have used them to extend the runtime of the automaton. You could reduce the aperture and then increase the effective length of string pulled by the weight using pulleys. As long as your wheels are round enough, and the weight is heavy enough to overcome friction, that is. But I guess there is more than 10kg/20pounds of lead in that weight wich should be enough for a 4to1 or 8to1 pulley. That way you get longer runtime almost for free.
Okay, I just read, that the first documented use of pulley was 970 BC and Archimedes already wrote about Combined pulleys, so Heron and Philon most likeley knew of them. They are like the Gearboxes of the ancient times and using them in automaton sounds like a reasonable idea.
definitely! hero actually describes using pulleys for mechanical advantage in 'Hero's Automata' when he discusses how to extend its range. You and he think alike!
(You probably already know this): a three-wheeled/legged contraption will stand steadily on any surface. As soon as you add a 4th wheel/leg, at least one of them has to be able to move up/down to maintain contact with an uneven surface.
Have a look at (vehicle) suspension and steering geometries. The behaviour of a caster wheel is quite dependent on the offset between the pivot and the wheel axle. The casters used in the previous/first automata had a fairly long offset. Together with a sloppy pivot, this will mean that the contact point (and load transfer path) of that wheel will mover around quite a bit as the automata turns. With that width/height ratio, wobble is pretty much unavoidable.
In bicycles/motorcycles, this is called "rake" or "reach"
Look up "camber angle". Steering wheels in vehicles pretty much always has(at least) one more angle to work with, the camber. The clearest illustration is a bicycle/motorcycle.
Notice how the fork leans?
Disclaimer: not entirely sure how relevant camber is to something moving as slowly as your automata
Wheel size: You have limited influence on the surface your automata is going to run on. But you can choose the wheel size. And the bigger the wheel is in relation to the obstacle it's traversing, the smoother it'll move. A pencil is a serious obstacle to a skateboard, but nothing to a bicycle. The rest is gearing ratios.
what a clever mechanism! it occurs to me that you could have pre-programmed wheels that can be loaded before use, like putting in a floppy disk to boot from
I am loving your videos I have no idea why it took me so long to get here, I just did not understand what you were hinting at when you were talking about running water clocks continuously, is it based on evaporating water over time? Are you talking about natural constant streams of water?
i hope to make a video about them sometime, they work off water dripping into a basin (think like a hourglass but water instead of sand) the time is indicated by a float that rises as the water accumulates in the basin. the continuous clocks have a siphon thay resets the basin once it is full, and are connected to a stream or other water source so that it can continue to drip forever. they were suprisingly complex devices 😅
A kind of greedy cup with markings that indicate the time, quite clever, I guess they might have even used multiple ones separating a fraction of the water once it was damped to go into a separate one to make two different units (like minutes and hours) which would be quite similar to some contraptions you can make with transistors
@@fraserbuilds In Japanese zen gardens they have a noisemaker based on a wooden dipper on a pivot. In a small waterfall it fills with water until it tips over with a knocking noise, so the water flows out and the process repeats. This could have been a clock driving mechanism too. Also China had a huge astronomical water clock (made by So Sung) with complicated cog mechanism.
I for one applaud our hourglass driven overlords! Great video! Thanks!
Thank you! Long live the hourglass!
You could also make it run faster, but with the same amount of run time, if you decreased the diameter of the programming barrels. Or by using a pulley system to make the weight pull twice the length of rope. Provided the weight is heavy enough to supply the extra force needed.
Or longer at the slower speed if you did ether of those and decreased the flow rate of the seeds.
The weak point of this contraption is that the base is too small compared to the height, which makes the whole thing very wobbly. You could give it more stability by adding a few supporting wheels as attached to a kid’s threewheeler.
Great Work, and thank you for sharing!
Though if I were in your place, I'd use kind of a lathe for wheels and pulleys - if ClickSpring did it in his Anthykera series, its authentic, and your automatons will run much more smoothly. The same goes for any other tool and technique - why make things harder or rougher without need, while staying authentic? Again, great work and keep posting, please!
you could try and decrease the radius of the programming wheels to increase the speed without sacrificing operation time or the inverse
Is there enough mass in the weight to run a compound pulley? That would let you haul more string through the mechanism and extend run distance - assuming the reduced force can still overcome friction.
I would love to see a version Where you use gear or pulley ratio (& a bigger weight) to make it move longer and faster.🏎💨
Amazing job well done how are you doing 😊
Good! thanks :)
I wonder if you use small lead beads/pellets, you could store more energy overall
AMAZINGLY cool indeed sir! It is a profound vision to see something 2000 yr’s old come to life , well done for sure keep up the good work…peace
Thank you!