Sadly Arena ruins it by making that last one 69 because of the token limit (250-182+1) If those 69 were to be Fleshrakers, they'd trigger 431,664 times (184*68*69/2). If you had not played the last Eternity, you'd have 170 Fleshrakers, and they'd trigger 201,110 times (14*169*170/2). More Fleshrakers, still less triggers, so that 4th Eternity does pay off despite the token limit. If there was no token limit, there would indeed be 33,490 Fleshrakers and they'd trigger 103,182,288,120 times (184*33489*33,490/2). If each of the triggers, as well as each Fleshraker takes half a second to resolve, this would take 1,635 years, which is probably over the timeout limit of most games.
@@ave_maria323 manage to live long enough is step 1. Step two is ramp hard into Virtue of Strength, and then doppelgang for x=7, or however much you're comfortable trying.
@@manjibean4015 I mean, just doppelgang against a mono-white life gain player. I hit over 2000 triggers before arena just gave up. No crash, no draw, no errors. It just went back to the main menu.
I absolutely love when the question of "How much damage would this be?" comes up in YT videos, because I've already seen 6 wildly different answers in the comments.
the thing where seth doesn't know which match is gonna go first in editing so he explains the combo every time even though he also explains the combo during the intro :P
At 35:16, the game is showing the option to "decline" while you're copying spells. This means "keep the same targets as the original spell", meaning you don't have to Exile your own spawns.
Exiling 1 spawn produced 9 spawns, netting 8 spawns, so there's no reason to decline the spell. Playing optimally would mean sacrificing each spawn for mana in response to the target since the spell would still resolve as the player remains a legal target, but at that point in the game there's no need to play optimally.
the amount of damage dealt, provided your opponent doesn't die first, is actually 2,442,050, which is uh, slightly over 20. (edited in the actual answer as for whatever reason my tired morning brain decided it was a factorial)
suspected this a few days ago, but they finally fixed the tough math crash bug!!! You can now do insane stuff with billions of triggers and the game can handle it!
At 36 minutes, if the opponent didn't concede, he would have won. You were at 5 life, and activated a one ring with 9x triggers. You were dead on your upkeep.
Holy cow dude. That one battle where you put a bazillion Echoes of Eternity to make 170 Fleshrakers!!! 🤯👏👏👏 That was insane & congrats! That must have been so satisfying to see. And it not glitch & freeze up!! Wow.
fleshraker is SOOOOOOOOO GOOD in colorless, helps spin your wheels, and gives you the win while your at it. basically reads when you cast a spell, make a treasure and ping your opponent, at minimum
The closed-form equation for how much damage playing Glaring Fleshraker deals with N copies of Echoes on the battlefield is (1+N) times the N²th triangular number (because each Fleshraker only sees the ones that enter after it). Playing Echo then Fleshraker (N=1) deals 2 damage. Playing Echo into Echo into Fleshraker (N=3) deals 180 damage (meaning that going any further is really just rubbing it in). Playing Echo into Echo into Echo into Fleshraker (N=13) like in M1G2 deals 201,110 damage. If that was somehow not enough and you decide you need to play another Echo first, you'll end up with 183 Echoes on the battlefield (each one you cast adds N²+1 copies to the battlefield), and you'd be looking at over 100 billion damage. Feel free to check my math - it's almost 5am here and I probably screwed up somewhere.
Mana Drain is just... Why does a counterspell need the addition of 'here have all this mana too'. Not like stopping a six drop with two mana wasn't enough upside.
when it was first made, there was mana burn, which hurt you for 1 every unspent mana. So it looked closer to a sidegrade to Counterspell, because *theoretically* it could burn you for 5 or something if you played it as your last card and topdecked a land. It is still completely busted and was then too.
Very confused as to why he didn’t play the mind stone at 10:30, he said he wanted to leave the dismember up but the mind stone taps for mana? Am I missing something here?
3:15 - The One Ring, a colorless card with a triggered ability that damages you, in a deck that is trying to multiply colorless card triggered abilities. Now I'm just waiting for Seth to accidental burn himself out
At 18:00 minutes you would end with 170 fleshrakers. Each single enters which will trigger each other fleshraker so you get 1+2+...+169 fleshraker triggers (no echoes counted yet). Which is (170*169/2) 14365 triggers. The echoes trigger of each other so you get 13 times 13 is a 169 additional damage per fleshraker trigger. In the end i believe it would be 14365*170 (including the original damage trigger) is 2442050 damage 😂
Are you taking into account the things that echos copies? First, it will copy the fleshraker creatures, it will copy the copy effect of all other echos and then they start to enter, but don't forget, the fleshrakers enter in a sequential order, not all at the same time, each time a fleshraker enters, it triggers all the previous fleshrakers. (This is a geometric sequence S = a * (r^n - 1) / (r - 1)). THEN each time a token is created, it will copy the token creation, then copy for each echos, THEN the damage triggers each time, which also get copied and copy copied. The actual damage is insane and I think you could be sitting there for hours watching the triggers happen, get copied, get copy copied etc. I was working this through. Even with 2 echos on the board: Fleshraker is cast, it gets copied by 2 echos, those two echos then copy the copy ability giving 6 total on the stack. They then enter one at a time. As each one enters, the spawn gets created, and copied, and copied again, which adds the damage ability, which copies and gets copied again, the damage resolves, then the next fleshtaker copy enters and repeats this interaction but now with 2 triggering etc. I think with 2 echos, the damage is lethal. With 11, it's in the hundreds of millions, if not billions.
Yes I took the echoes into account. That's why he gets 170 fleshrakers to begin with (13^2 +1) and why each fleshraker trigger effectively deals 170 damage (13^2 +1)@@Xorthis
@@Xorthisalso no spawn are created because only a single fleshraker spell has been cast. It would get pretty crazy if a second fleshraker would be cast.
After looking into it a bit better. This is the correct answer. After using a summation I got the same answer you did using the summation from n=1-170 using the equation (13*13+1) (n-1). Where I went wrong was that I forgot that each echos triggered each other on the triggered ability as well as the cast trigger. When the first copy of the fleshraker resolves it will deal 0 damage (since it can’t trigger itself). The second copy that resolves triggers the first one (and all 13 echos which trigger each other) dealing 170 damage. The 3rd copy that resolves will trigger the first two (and all the echo triggers) and deal 340….then 510….then 680…etc. you do this 170 times and add all those number together and you get….. 2442050 Damage.
17:00 So the total damage should be 2,427,685 from this stack. Math: Sum over the range from n=1 to n=x^2 +1, where x is the number of copies of Echoes of eternity. The "plus one" accounts for the original copy on the stack. The function you sum over is the the following: (n-1) * (x^2) This can be read as the number of FR's already on the battlefield each triggering x^2 times. Note that the first Fleshraker does not trigger itself, hence the term (n-1). Hope that helps!
Super fun video. Today I learnt that Echos does not work how we all thought its multiplicative, not additive, and that Fleshbreaker es B O N K E R S. Seriously what a highlight, I totally passed over the fleshbreakers during spoiler season
I’m not sure but I think the total damage would have been 201,110. There was 170 fleshrakers on the stack and the first one causes no damage when it enters while the last one has 169 other fleshrakers seeing it that each trigger 14 times (one because of its own ability and 13 because of the 13 echoes). Thus the combined damage of the first one entering and the last one entering is 169x14 damage. Each subsequent pair will also do this much damage (ie second and second to last, third and third to last). Thus it’s the 169x14 times 85 which is half of 170 to equal about 200,000. Once again I’m not certain about this but I think it’s correct.
I built this a little different. I made a blue deck with mana drain, counterspell, opt, deliberate. Islands and blue pain lands for the mana base. I use mana drain mana to get echoes and/or fleshraker down early. I trigger fleshraker with kozilek’s command, Unfathomable Truths, mind stone, and idol of false gods. The idol is a one of because it isn’t really the best, but I keep it in there because I love seeing my opponent hovering over all my cards trying to figure out why there are suddenly so many Annihilator 2 triggers on the stack.
34:00 - Once the first "you have protection" resolved, you could have started drawing cards because the only thing bowmaster could target was on their side.
@@ReyaadawnMTG you can go full control and let each spell on the stack resolve one at a time. Seth must have left that setting on, precisely to use the One Ring copies.
@@justinayran he actually did it incredibly well. I hadn’t noticed. Even if he tapped the ring in his opponents turn, he would have taken multiple hits from the trogfered ability on his upkeep. It was actually quite masterful
I mean, if you're looking for a card advantage engine for casting ornithopters and memnites to go off with fleshraker, Satoru the infiltrator does draw a card when you play one. No idea what other pieces you need though.
This deck idea looks insane, and even if you deck yourself out looks like it would be a blast, I kind of want to build this in a Tron Shell, and minus the One Ring. Seth if you could do a Modern deck using this as a premise I would be eternally grateful for it, want to see how it would come together and play. Love the content, although I don't comment often. I've been a fan of your content, and the entire channel for YEARS!!!!!!!!. Love Eldrazi and this deck just looks SICK!!!!!!
I know removing the one ring may hurt the deck overall, but at the moment they are like $200 CAD a piece, so if nothing else I will 100% build this on arena, but yeah cannot justify dropping like $800 on a playset of the one ring
three tree city would be great in this deck--you' eldrazi, so you need colorless pips, which three tree city makes. But it can also make colored mana (different color every time you activate it), and it scales with the amount of eldrazi you have in play. And it comes into play untapped! and if you activated the turn after casting kozileks command...
Was hoping someone pointed this out. If it was done before the echoes it would have been fine since he wouldn’t have needed to draw anymore and would have had protection to keep him safe.
Fwiw, on the last kozilek's command of the video, I believe X=4 would both play around the mana drain and win the game, since fleshraker would give you a 5th spawn for casting a colorless spell
TL;DR if n is the number of times you’ve casted Echoes of Eternity (and n >= 3), then you will have S(1) = 1, S(2) = 3, and S(n) = 4 + S^2(n - 1) copies on the battlefield (assuming none of them ever leave the battlefield). This number will always have 3 as the units digit. Fun number theory about Echoes of Eternity: assuming all of them always stick, after you resolve the 2nd Echoes of Eternity and consequently have 3 on board, any subsequent colorless spells will always have a multiple of 10 copies on the stack: 1 will be the original, and then the remaining will all be Echoes of Eternity copies. This is true regardless of how many Echoes you cast past the first. Here’s how it works: 2nd Eternity = 9 copies, as we saw in the video. When you cast the 3rd Eternity, you get 9 more copies, totaling 10 new copies of Eternity. Now you have 13. Now, notice that the number of extra copies you get is always the square of the number of copies you have. Observe furthermore that changing any digits past the ones digit of a number will not affect the ones digit of the square: If AB represents the digits of a 2 digit number, then equivalently the value of the number is 10A + B. Its square is then (10A + B)^2 = 100A^2 + 20AB + B^2. Of all of these terms, only B^2 has a ones digit that is nonzero (since the other two terms are multiplied by 10). Thus only B has any influence on the square of AB. At this point, we can see that at 3 Eternities, we have 169 copies of colorless spells. Importantly, the units digit is 9. As we concluded earlier, if the units digit of the number of copies of Eternities we have is always 3, then the squared units digit will always be 9. Since the square doesn’t take into account the original copy, this means that we have to add 1 to whatever square we get, which means that our actual units digit of the number of copies we get is 9 + 1 = 0 (mod 10). Consequently, this means we will always have (some multiple of 10) + 3 Eternities, and so we will always create (some multiple of 10) + 9 copies of any colorless spell.
Now you might be thinking that you can only have 4 Echoes of Eternity in your deck, but here’s your solution: 1. Cast Mycosynth Lattice 2. Cast an Opalescence effect 3. Cast a clone (Opalescence enables creature clones, but Copy Enchantment or Sculpting Steel is also sufficient) This effectively means that you can run the 4 original Echoes, plus 4 x the number of cloning effects in the game. Of course, you could also just Eternal Witness + Doppelgang (or other copy artifact or all permanent effects) infinitely, without the Opalescence. You’d probably have enough mana to do that if you’re considering this interaction in the first place.
Since you run dismember in the sideboard why not replacing Adarkar Wastes with a painland that lets you cast it for slightly less self inflicted damage?
You should go play a friend with this deck and have the friend play a platinum angel effect, so you can see just how much damage/tokens/etc. Arena will recognize :)
One interaction I dont think you noticed is the mana ability of Forsaken Monument is a trigger. So Echoes copies that too. 22:18 against the jund opponent, you could have played Echoes into Devourer.
I hate to be this guy, but it is not a triggered ability. You can find this in the rulings, but you can also notice how tapping a permanent while you have a forsaken monument out does not cause triggers to go on the stack...
@@thijmenrevenboer8960 Whenever means it triggers on an event, in this case tapping a permanent for colorless mana. Thus it is a triggered ability. However it is a mana ability and mana abilities don't use the stack. But it still is copied with Echoes and thus you get 2 colorless more when you tap a permanent for colorless with one Echoes in play. With more it gets more.
Seth, I built my own blue/white version of this deck and just killed myself with a one ring with a single counter. Didn't realize 3 echoes of eternity would copy the damage effect. oops. I'm not so sure about including The One Ring anymore....
I wonder if there's a good sac outlet you can put in the sideboard, so Karn can get you a wincon in situations where you have him and a million tokens.
I calculated the damage, and it would have been way more than 'millions'. It would have been on the order of 8.7 * 10^307. Yes, that's a 308-digit number.
Game 2, you could have cast mind stone and still had dismember up for a potential tamiyo. Unless they counter it AND have tamiyo + brainstorm. And in that case, nothing you can do. Gotta just play your cards.
Cool play you can make with Karn and a bunch of spawns is fetch the Monument which will pump all those spawns +2 and swing for some decent damage. Awesome brew!
You can already kill them with Fleshraker's trigger, you don't even need Forsaken Monument (5cmc), just cast a bunch of low cmc spells and they die. Unless you have a Basalt Monolith in hand, then it means infiinite mana, and you DO grab the Forsaken Monument.
@@cwu1 I’m speaking purely on some situations where Seth had many spawns on the field and a Karn activation still to use where he could make said play and end the game. Basalt isn’t even on Arena…
Would it be worth it to play Conduit Pylons instead of Zhalfirin Void for both the ability to be sacrificed to Scavenger Grounds and the ability to filter mana for Drowner of Truth or Dismember? (and if for some reason surveiling is worse here than scrying or you want more than 4 copies, I would still think that Crystal Grotto is just a strictly better version of Zhalfirin Void due to the potential mana fixing)
It all began with the forging of the Great Rings. Three were given to the Elves; immortal, wisest and fairest of all beings. Seven, to the Dwarf Lords, great miners and craftsmen of the mountain halls. And nine, nine rings were gifted to the SaffronOlive, who above all else desire card draw.
Also also. Echoes + Path of Annihilation = 2 copes of the enchantment and 8, 0/1 drazi. 4 mana for 8 is an even better deal than Kozilek's command, but god damn do I love kozilek's command. Also also, Run better lands, man, Demolition Field and Mycosynth Gardens fit sooo well into it. Then I run some creature lands like Mobilized District and Mishra's foundry because they all etb untapped, and give me colorless.
I am a bit confused, is there a particular reason to be playing ardakar wastes in this deck over yavimaya coast? The only colour cost in the deck is UGB right?
43:06 Why draw with Ring? You already knew you were dead to exactly Bowmasters. You already HAVE lethal with Echos + Matter Reshaper + Devourer in hand. Activating Ring was totally unnecessary.
1:26:40 I think that it would have been better to not use your spawn to cast Koz Command. You didn't need it for damage if it resolved, and the extra mana on the next turn could have been relevant. I get that you probably didn't bother thinking about it since you assumed it was resolve or lose, but in Magic it's always worth considering your outs.
the token limit is really killing the fun of cards like Echo on arena, you always have to stop yourself to not softlock yourself. It really should be token limit per shared token name, not combined for all.
Are SaffronOlive and PleasantKenobi like besties or something? I feel like whenever I watch his gameplay I'm back in 2018 watching PleasantKenobi gameplay, it's awesome!
001 Eternity (0 + 0*0 + 1)
003 Eternity (1 + 1*1 + 1)
013 Eternity (3 + 3*3 + 1)
183 Eternity (13 + 13*13 + 1)
=
33490 copies of any colorless thing you play (183*183 + 1)
Shouldn’t it be 183 more to complete the pattern?
edit Nvm I get it now
Sadly Arena ruins it by making that last one 69 because of the token limit (250-182+1)
If those 69 were to be Fleshrakers, they'd trigger 431,664 times (184*68*69/2).
If you had not played the last Eternity, you'd have 170 Fleshrakers, and they'd trigger 201,110 times (14*169*170/2). More Fleshrakers, still less triggers, so that 4th Eternity does pay off despite the token limit.
If there was no token limit, there would indeed be 33,490 Fleshrakers and they'd trigger 103,182,288,120 times (184*33489*33,490/2).
If each of the triggers, as well as each Fleshraker takes half a second to resolve, this would take 1,635 years, which is probably over the timeout limit of most games.
I did this with doppelgang against an Eldrazi player. 800 triggers. It somehow didn't crash arena.
How
@@ave_maria323 manage to live long enough is step 1.
Step two is ramp hard into Virtue of Strength, and then doppelgang for x=7, or however much you're comfortable trying.
Doppelgang railway brawler and kami if you want to crash arena consistently
@@manjibean4015 I mean, just doppelgang against a mono-white life gain player. I hit over 2000 triggers before arena just gave up.
No crash, no draw, no errors. It just went back to the main menu.
@@Kingofnoodlesimpressive, also impressive arena didn't crash
42:10 playing the Echoes and saying "we're dying in two turns anyways" when he's seen it double the pain triggers lmao
It was the top deck bowmasters for me lol, saw it from a mile away
Lol they didn't even need the bowmasters he was dead regardless XD
how was hoping to get a new one ring off the one ring draw, but if he had used the mind stones to draw instead he might have been better off.
And then he concedes to the bowmasters, when he could still draw another ring off of the 4 cards and survive at one life.
I absolutely love when the question of "How much damage would this be?" comes up in YT videos, because I've already seen 6 wildly different answers in the comments.
Easy - at most 20, since you're dealing 1 damage at a time, and the game checks if the opponent dies after each damage is dealt 🤓
@@RyanEglitis Check out the big brain on Brett
@@RyanEglitis That assumes that your opponent can't go about 20 life, which is absolutely possible.
@@RasmusVJS Yeah I go about life all the time
the thing where seth doesn't know which match is gonna go first in editing so he explains the combo every time
even though he also explains the combo during the intro :P
4 copies of the common "Power Stone Shard" also goes a very long way with Echos
idk it's kind of a win more card
@@dragon101woof8 true, but it also can speed up getting mana. So it's also kinda a win faster card too. The best one though is the command.
At 35:16, the game is showing the option to "decline" while you're copying spells. This means "keep the same targets as the original spell", meaning you don't have to Exile your own spawns.
Exiling 1 spawn produced 9 spawns, netting 8 spawns, so there's no reason to decline the spell. Playing optimally would mean sacrificing each spawn for mana in response to the target since the spell would still resolve as the player remains a legal target, but at that point in the game there's no need to play optimally.
@@giovannishepard653 It's not declining the spell. It's declining to select new targets.
Yes, you're not even allowed to decline copying the spell, the only thing that is optional is the new targets.
the amount of damage dealt, provided your opponent doesn't die first, is actually 2,442,050, which is uh, slightly over 20.
(edited in the actual answer as for whatever reason my tired morning brain decided it was a factorial)
@@tony61597 no 3 googols is 3*10^100, this is a little over googol times googol times googol damage.
@@ergon1798 you’re right, I messed up which variable changes. It’s more like googol cubed my b
@@tony61597 googol cubed, rather
I wouldn’t even say just slightly over. It is 9 x 10^7 more so 90 million times more than that.
@@chammy2812 yea like i said, a little over 20 damage.
Crystal Grotto is a (very small) upgrade over Zhalfirin Void; you might want to hard cast the MDFC and there's no downside.
suspected this a few days ago, but they finally fixed the tough math crash bug!!! You can now do insane stuff with billions of triggers and the game can handle it!
At 36 minutes, if the opponent didn't concede, he would have won. You were at 5 life, and activated a one ring with 9x triggers. You were dead on your upkeep.
I think he could have Karned for a replacement Ring?
Yeah, I think the line was Karn for one ring which would draw nine some odd cards into the more draw into the fleshraker eventually
Holy cow dude. That one battle where you put a bazillion Echoes of Eternity to make 170 Fleshrakers!!! 🤯👏👏👏
That was insane & congrats! That must have been so satisfying to see. And it not glitch & freeze up!! Wow.
10:46 you could've played mindstone because it'd be untapped to use towards dismember.
Unless it gets countered on the way down
In which case
No mana
Also could have played it after he got brazenborrowed by tapping the stone for mana.. smh classic saffron 😂
@@mgrazzmatazwhat? It was in the end step
The warhorn going off with every Kozilek's Command 35:01
4:46 "The Beast With A Billion Backs" :D (david cross is awesome)
fleshraker is SOOOOOOOOO GOOD in colorless, helps spin your wheels, and gives you the win while your at it. basically reads when you cast a spell, make a treasure and ping your opponent, at minimum
Not to mention how insane it is with doublers like roaming throne or echos.
The closed-form equation for how much damage playing Glaring Fleshraker deals with N copies of Echoes on the battlefield is (1+N) times the N²th triangular number (because each Fleshraker only sees the ones that enter after it). Playing Echo then Fleshraker (N=1) deals 2 damage. Playing Echo into Echo into Fleshraker (N=3) deals 180 damage (meaning that going any further is really just rubbing it in).
Playing Echo into Echo into Echo into Fleshraker (N=13) like in M1G2 deals 201,110 damage. If that was somehow not enough and you decide you need to play another Echo first, you'll end up with 183 Echoes on the battlefield (each one you cast adds N²+1 copies to the battlefield), and you'd be looking at over 100 billion damage.
Feel free to check my math - it's almost 5am here and I probably screwed up somewhere.
The sound the command makes when it exiles a creature is amazing.
I love how everyone is super confident about their math, but so far everyone's answers are different
Big trigger + magic the gathering = dopamine
Not gonna lie I rolled my eyes when I saw another eldrazi video, but echoes tech that u showed off was beyond sick now I need to see more echoes
you can definitely make an interesting video on the math involved in this deck.
Mana Drain is just... Why does a counterspell need the addition of 'here have all this mana too'. Not like stopping a six drop with two mana wasn't enough upside.
when it was first made, there was mana burn, which hurt you for 1 every unspent mana. So it looked closer to a sidegrade to Counterspell, because *theoretically* it could burn you for 5 or something if you played it as your last card and topdecked a land. It is still completely busted and was then too.
Very confused as to why he didn’t play the mind stone at 10:30, he said he wanted to leave the dismember up but the mind stone taps for mana? Am I missing something here?
Playing around Counterspell on Mind Stone
I assume he was playing around counterspell, but it’s also possible he thought mind stone enters tapped given his recent series with Richard.
It's a bit rough with the one ring's life loss trigger though
This is the kind of Deck Saffron Olive gets down to
What’s the matter reshaper professor?
Nothing’s the matter reshaper Fry. Good news everyone, I just invented a matter reshaper.
Seth’s greed never fails to make me smile when it backfires 😂
Just watching the intro and I suspect this deck will break arena like doppelgang did!
Ohh sweet brew! I'm glad you got around to this one!
3:15 - The One Ring, a colorless card with a triggered ability that damages you, in a deck that is trying to multiply colorless card triggered abilities. Now I'm just waiting for Seth to accidental burn himself out
Aw, he's playing around it
I like how the one ring with echoes is a nombo and despite that it's one of the best cards in the deck
My brain hurt just trying to understand him explaining how the deck works. Sweet brew!
Gollum isn't a Goblin, he's a Hobbit.
At 18:00 minutes you would end with 170 fleshrakers. Each single enters which will trigger each other fleshraker so you get 1+2+...+169 fleshraker triggers (no echoes counted yet). Which is (170*169/2) 14365 triggers.
The echoes trigger of each other so you get 13 times 13 is a 169 additional damage per fleshraker trigger. In the end i believe it would be 14365*170 (including the original damage trigger) is 2442050 damage 😂
Are you taking into account the things that echos copies? First, it will copy the fleshraker creatures, it will copy the copy effect of all other echos and then they start to enter, but don't forget, the fleshrakers enter in a sequential order, not all at the same time, each time a fleshraker enters, it triggers all the previous fleshrakers. (This is a geometric sequence S = a * (r^n - 1) / (r - 1)). THEN each time a token is created, it will copy the token creation, then copy for each echos, THEN the damage triggers each time, which also get copied and copy copied.
The actual damage is insane and I think you could be sitting there for hours watching the triggers happen, get copied, get copy copied etc.
I was working this through. Even with 2 echos on the board:
Fleshraker is cast, it gets copied by 2 echos, those two echos then copy the copy ability giving 6 total on the stack.
They then enter one at a time. As each one enters, the spawn gets created, and copied, and copied again, which adds the damage ability, which copies and gets copied again, the damage resolves, then the next fleshtaker copy enters and repeats this interaction but now with 2 triggering etc.
I think with 2 echos, the damage is lethal. With 11, it's in the hundreds of millions, if not billions.
Yes I took the echoes into account. That's why he gets 170 fleshrakers to begin with (13^2 +1) and why each fleshraker trigger effectively deals 170 damage (13^2 +1)@@Xorthis
@@Xorthisalso no spawn are created because only a single fleshraker spell has been cast. It would get pretty crazy if a second fleshraker would be cast.
After looking into it a bit better. This is the correct answer. After using a summation I got the same answer you did using the summation from n=1-170 using the equation (13*13+1) (n-1). Where I went wrong was that I forgot that each echos triggered each other on the triggered ability as well as the cast trigger. When the first copy of the fleshraker resolves it will deal 0 damage (since it can’t trigger itself). The second copy that resolves triggers the first one (and all 13 echos which trigger each other) dealing 170 damage. The 3rd copy that resolves will trigger the first two (and all the echo triggers) and deal 340….then 510….then 680…etc. you do this 170 times and add all those number together and you get….. 2442050 Damage.
Haven't seen anyone mention this:
If you copy One Ring with Echoes, put full control on. Then you can tap each copy to draw before the other resolves.
The Eldrazi Invasion has resumed
17:00 So the total damage should be 2,427,685 from this stack.
Math: Sum over the range from n=1 to n=x^2 +1, where x is the number of copies of Echoes of eternity. The "plus one" accounts for the original copy on the stack.
The function you sum over is the the following:
(n-1) * (x^2)
This can be read as the number of FR's already on the battlefield each triggering x^2 times. Note that the first Fleshraker does not trigger itself, hence the term (n-1).
Hope that helps!
02:26 Super easy, barely an inconvenience.
Super fun video. Today I learnt that Echos does not work how we all thought its multiplicative, not additive, and that Fleshbreaker es B O N K E R S. Seriously what a highlight, I totally passed over the fleshbreakers during spoiler season
You haven't posted a gameplay video in MONTHS! Maybe YEARS! Glad to get fresh brews.
I’m not sure but I think the total damage would have been 201,110. There was 170 fleshrakers on the stack and the first one causes no damage when it enters while the last one has 169 other fleshrakers seeing it that each trigger 14 times (one because of its own ability and 13 because of the 13 echoes). Thus the combined damage of the first one entering and the last one entering is 169x14 damage. Each subsequent pair will also do this much damage (ie second and second to last, third and third to last). Thus it’s the 169x14 times 85 which is half of 170 to equal about 200,000. Once again I’m not certain about this but I think it’s correct.
I built this a little different. I made a blue deck with mana drain, counterspell, opt, deliberate. Islands and blue pain lands for the mana base. I use mana drain mana to get echoes and/or fleshraker down early. I trigger fleshraker with kozilek’s command, Unfathomable Truths, mind stone, and idol of false gods. The idol is a one of because it isn’t really the best, but I keep it in there because I love seeing my opponent hovering over all my cards trying to figure out why there are suddenly so many Annihilator 2 triggers on the stack.
23:45 the moment when I realized Echoes doesn’t specify non-mana abilities, so it also bonus triggers Forsaken Monument’s bonus mana
Proudly did this in limited with the obscure copy enchantment
That Bowmasters was *brutal* well played opponent
Thank you, I was that opponent 😂
You should definitely have a Walking Ballista in the Karnboard with how much mana you can make.
At 48:30, why not Wurmcoil? Opp is dead on board and you mainly need life and blockers. Poor wurm, forever ignored.
1:04:42 It's called echoes of eternity and has fractals in the art -- that makes me think it was intentional :)
34:00 - Once the first "you have protection" resolved, you could have started drawing cards because the only thing bowmaster could target was on their side.
The copy of the one ring (the one that resolves first) won't grant protection because it wasn't cast.
@@justinayran ohhhhhhhh….what were all those triggers then? To select the legendary copy to keep?
@@ReyaadawnMTG you can go full control and let each spell on the stack resolve one at a time. Seth must have left that setting on, precisely to use the One Ring copies.
@@justinayran he actually did it incredibly well. I hadn’t noticed. Even if he tapped the ring in his opponents turn, he would have taken multiple hits from the trogfered ability on his upkeep. It was actually quite masterful
Oh boy, with multiple echoes of eternity on the battlefield, there’s the possibility for something hilarious from the One Ring.
Lore accurate Eldrazi deck.
I see we're adding the two best colorless cards in all of Magic: Karn and The One Ring (please can them both).
I mean, if you're looking for a card advantage engine for casting ornithopters and memnites to go off with fleshraker, Satoru the infiltrator does draw a card when you play one. No idea what other pieces you need though.
This deck idea looks insane, and even if you deck yourself out looks like it would be a blast, I kind of want to build this in a Tron Shell, and minus the One Ring. Seth if you could do a Modern deck using this as a premise I would be eternally grateful for it, want to see how it would come together and play. Love the content, although I don't comment often. I've been a fan of your content, and the entire channel for YEARS!!!!!!!!. Love Eldrazi and this deck just looks SICK!!!!!!
I know removing the one ring may hurt the deck overall, but at the moment they are like $200 CAD a piece, so if nothing else I will 100% build this on arena, but yeah cannot justify dropping like $800 on a playset of the one ring
Try Spine of Ish Shah with Echoes and Teleportation Circle. I just built a white weenie with these two cards in mind and it's fun.
That last game was shear perfection
Combo and Eldrazi, finally, a match made in haven! ...no? just me? ok guess seth made this video specifically for me
I'll be here waiting for the Fleshraker Affinity build 😎
three tree city would be great in this deck--you' eldrazi, so you need colorless pips, which three tree city makes. But it can also make colored mana (different color every time you activate it), and it scales with the amount of eldrazi you have in play. And it comes into play untapped! and if you activated the turn after casting kozileks command...
At 42:20, you could have gotten the ring in exile from the pregame, because karn also gets stuff from face up exile
Was hoping someone pointed this out. If it was done before the echoes it would have been fine since he wouldn’t have needed to draw anymore and would have had protection to keep him safe.
Karn was disabled by the flute
Fwiw, on the last kozilek's command of the video, I believe X=4 would both play around the mana drain and win the game, since fleshraker would give you a 5th spawn for casting a colorless spell
First opponent was a legend lol
TL;DR if n is the number of times you’ve casted Echoes of Eternity (and n >= 3), then you will have S(1) = 1, S(2) = 3, and S(n) = 4 + S^2(n - 1) copies on the battlefield (assuming none of them ever leave the battlefield). This number will always have 3 as the units digit.
Fun number theory about Echoes of Eternity: assuming all of them always stick, after you resolve the 2nd Echoes of Eternity and consequently have 3 on board, any subsequent colorless spells will always have a multiple of 10 copies on the stack: 1 will be the original, and then the remaining will all be Echoes of Eternity copies. This is true regardless of how many Echoes you cast past the first. Here’s how it works:
2nd Eternity = 9 copies, as we saw in the video.
When you cast the 3rd Eternity, you get 9 more copies, totaling 10 new copies of Eternity. Now you have 13.
Now, notice that the number of extra copies you get is always the square of the number of copies you have. Observe furthermore that changing any digits past the ones digit of a number will not affect the ones digit of the square:
If AB represents the digits of a 2 digit number, then equivalently the value of the number is 10A + B. Its square is then (10A + B)^2 = 100A^2 + 20AB + B^2. Of all of these terms, only B^2 has a ones digit that is nonzero (since the other two terms are multiplied by 10). Thus only B has any influence on the square of AB.
At this point, we can see that at 3 Eternities, we have 169 copies of colorless spells. Importantly, the units digit is 9. As we concluded earlier, if the units digit of the number of copies of Eternities we have is always 3, then the squared units digit will always be 9. Since the square doesn’t take into account the original copy, this means that we have to add 1 to whatever square we get, which means that our actual units digit of the number of copies we get is 9 + 1 = 0 (mod 10). Consequently, this means we will always have (some multiple of 10) + 3 Eternities, and so we will always create (some multiple of 10) + 9 copies of any colorless spell.
Now you might be thinking that you can only have 4 Echoes of Eternity in your deck, but here’s your solution:
1. Cast Mycosynth Lattice
2. Cast an Opalescence effect
3. Cast a clone (Opalescence enables creature clones, but Copy Enchantment or Sculpting Steel is also sufficient)
This effectively means that you can run the 4 original Echoes, plus 4 x the number of cloning effects in the game.
Of course, you could also just Eternal Witness + Doppelgang (or other copy artifact or all permanent effects) infinitely, without the Opalescence. You’d probably have enough mana to do that if you’re considering this interaction in the first place.
The Futurama movie was Beast with a Billion Backs.
11:05, float mana from mind stone replay mind stone.
they bounced it in end step
I haven't finished the video yet, but I'm hoping he used Kozilek's Command to have the opponent scry and draw, using the echoes to mill him out.
At 41:30 you could have plused karn on your one ring to exile it with kozikeks command
1:21:10 Frog-a-van
6:42 when the Matter Reshaper hit Tamiyo and it made a cat sound I was like "what"
alt art of Echoes of eternity reminds me the Kaijuu 8-gou opening
I remember playing this on arena when it first came out thinking how this wouldnt be as much fun on pen and paper.
Fleshraker seems like a super sweet target for Dopplegang. Future against the odds?
Since you run dismember in the sideboard why not replacing Adarkar Wastes with a painland that lets you cast it for slightly less self inflicted damage?
You should go play a friend with this deck and have the friend play a platinum angel effect, so you can see just how much damage/tokens/etc. Arena will recognize :)
One interaction I dont think you noticed is the mana ability of Forsaken Monument is a trigger. So Echoes copies that too. 22:18 against the jund opponent, you could have played Echoes into Devourer.
I hate to be this guy, but it is not a triggered ability. You can find this in the rulings, but you can also notice how tapping a permanent while you have a forsaken monument out does not cause triggers to go on the stack...
@@thijmenrevenboer8960 Whenever means it triggers on an event, in this case tapping a permanent for colorless mana. Thus it is a triggered ability. However it is a mana ability and mana abilities don't use the stack. But it still is copied with Echoes and thus you get 2 colorless more when you tap a permanent for colorless with one Echoes in play. With more it gets more.
as a copy mechanic maniac this might be my best card ever along with Ulalek
Seth, I built my own blue/white version of this deck and just killed myself with a one ring with a single counter. Didn't realize 3 echoes of eternity would copy the damage effect. oops. I'm not so sure about including The One Ring anymore....
I wonder if there's a good sac outlet you can put in the sideboard, so Karn can get you a wincon in situations where you have him and a million tokens.
57:19 Seths Desktop jumscare
1:20:14 "you'd need some source of card advantage"
In a colorless, artifact based deck? Hmm I wonder what 4 drop would work 🤔
I calculated the damage, and it would have been way more than 'millions'. It would have been on the order of 8.7 * 10^307. Yes, that's a 308-digit number.
Game 2, you could have cast mind stone and still had dismember up for a potential tamiyo. Unless they counter it AND have tamiyo + brainstorm. And in that case, nothing you can do. Gotta just play your cards.
"Eternal Echoes."
Cool play you can make with Karn and a bunch of spawns is fetch the Monument which will pump all those spawns +2 and swing for some decent damage. Awesome brew!
You can already kill them with Fleshraker's trigger, you don't even need Forsaken Monument (5cmc), just cast a bunch of low cmc spells and they die. Unless you have a Basalt Monolith in hand, then it means infiinite mana, and you DO grab the Forsaken Monument.
@@cwu1 I’m speaking purely on some situations where Seth had many spawns on the field and a Karn activation still to use where he could make said play and end the game. Basalt isn’t even on Arena…
it that heralds the end gives a deck like this a nice backup beat down plan
That's what Forsaken Monument was for in this deck, and he can Karn tutor for it from the sideboard.
Would it be worth it to play Conduit Pylons instead of Zhalfirin Void for both the ability to be sacrificed to Scavenger Grounds and the ability to filter mana for Drowner of Truth or Dismember? (and if for some reason surveiling is worse here than scrying or you want more than 4 copies, I would still think that Crystal Grotto is just a strictly better version of Zhalfirin Void due to the potential mana fixing)
Not sure if it's been mentioned but Futurama is now on Hulu.
Fleshraker is just absurd.
It all began with the forging of the Great Rings. Three were given to the Elves; immortal, wisest and fairest of all beings. Seven, to the Dwarf Lords, great miners and craftsmen of the mountain halls. And nine, nine rings were gifted to the SaffronOlive, who above all else desire card draw.
You get 9 copies of everything. I have been waiting for this, bout time!
Also also. Echoes + Path of Annihilation = 2 copes of the enchantment and 8, 0/1 drazi. 4 mana for 8 is an even better deal than Kozilek's command, but god damn do I love kozilek's command. Also also, Run better lands, man, Demolition Field and Mycosynth Gardens fit sooo well into it. Then I run some creature lands like Mobilized District and Mishra's foundry because they all etb untapped, and give me colorless.
I am a bit confused, is there a particular reason to be playing ardakar wastes in this deck over yavimaya coast? The only colour cost in the deck is UGB right?
Seth just wanted to use nulldrifter lol
The only thing in this deck that makes it Timeless is the better One Ring, seems like it'd be better in Historic.
43:06
Why draw with Ring? You already knew you were dead to exactly Bowmasters. You already HAVE lethal with Echos + Matter Reshaper + Devourer in hand. Activating Ring was totally unnecessary.
RIGHT!! Seth dying to card draw greed at least is consistent with his character 😆
1:26:40 I think that it would have been better to not use your spawn to cast Koz Command. You didn't need it for damage if it resolved, and the extra mana on the next turn could have been relevant. I get that you probably didn't bother thinking about it since you assumed it was resolve or lose, but in Magic it's always worth considering your outs.
Was I the only one shouting about blast zone in the later matches?
Good old Spaghetti monster tribal
Seth… maybe not futurama, but Simpsons Treehouse of Terror Halloween specials?
the token limit is really killing the fun of cards like Echo on arena, you always have to stop yourself to not softlock yourself. It really should be token limit per shared token name, not combined for all.
Are SaffronOlive and PleasantKenobi like besties or something? I feel like whenever I watch his gameplay I'm back in 2018 watching PleasantKenobi gameplay, it's awesome!