What Happened To Exaltation? The Slippery Slope From Eternal Laws To A Prosperity Gospel
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- čas přidán 27. 03. 2024
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This is a fascinating discussion! Bruce Porter's current research is on a hierarchy of Eternal Law all the way down to Principles and Policies. Bruce gives it straight and direct as per usual.
Have we culturally become communicators of Principles in place of Eternal Laws in the Church? To me, this is obvious. How often do we hear about Exaltation anymore or Eternal Truths such as Mercy Cannot Rob Justice?
Are Doctrines truths? Are the Commandments doctrine? This is a great analysis and discussion on truth vs. culture in the Church.
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This guy doesn't seem to understand the exception and only understands the norm when it comes to the laws of God.
Hes not correct if hes trying tell us that will be no people of the Lord in the Church prepared to meet him because the wise
Virgins will be the ones who will be ready to meet the Lord when he comes.
Joseph Smith taught that there are special exceptions to the norm that God makes to his laws but only under special circumstances. and no it doesn't cause god to cease to be god when he invokes those special exceptions. For example, God gave a commandment Thou Shalt Not Kill as the norm for everybody to live by but what did he command his Prophet Abraham to do? Go and kiill his son Isaac for a sacrifice offering. God said go and break one of my eternal unchangeable laws by killing Isaac... Then when Abraham was about to do it God then changed his mind (agency to choose) and then revoked his previous commandment to kill Isaac and told Abraham to go and take the goat caught in the thicket and kill that instead for a sacrifice offering. So here we see God can adapt and change his mind and suspend a law, the same as he done with Nephi, God commanded Nephi to break one of his laws to get the plates by killing Laban and told him the reason why he had to go for God had foreknowledge. So God suspended the law and didnt hold Nephi accountable for it when he killed Laban to get the records. So God can change his mind to suit his own purposes without ceasing to be God..
Dallin Oaks said recently that Salvation is an individual matter but Exaltation is a family matter. I have a broken family in more than one way. I love Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and having faith that their understanding of all things is my only comfort as I move forward with faith in what the final outcome of my family will be.
We all have broken families . Yes we all do . There is hope .
My family is breaking because of hard hearts. People with incredible responsibility in the Church are driving the destruction. Sadly, this was all predicted with great specificity. I pray for healing. The only hope is to stick to your covenants. I bet there is a celestial husband or wife out there to heal every family. IDK, but it is our only hope.
Family is more than just blood. Remember that we are all spiritually brothers and sisters, with a Heavenly Father and Mother.
@@AntonydenDulk we are all part of the family of man. That blood runs in all of our veins. You are part of my family. I learned that more deeply as I work in the Family Search library on collateral lines. We all tied together at some point.
That is so true .
Listening to this finally helped me put my finger on the thing I couldn’t put my finger on! Sometimes it does feel like people look at the church like it’s nothing more than a really effective self help program or “best practices” committee. In reality, the purpose of the gospel and the church is so much more. It’s about giving us the tools to eventually become perfected enough to live with God as exalted men and women. Nothing in our life can ever be a tragedy when if we learn to see the end from the beginning. Fantastic topic and message today..thank you!
Right! It isn't a club. It's an order based on godly patterns that transcend mortality.
I really like your comment. Thank you. I have seen a lot of changes in attitude in my years as a member. The gospel is the same, the people sometimes rally to change doctrine.
As a child, we sometimes at gum from under the table and we loved it. We got upset when our parents took it away from us and told us it was bad but we kept doing it anyway. As an adult, can you imagine going to a public bench and grabbing some gum from underneath? No, it would discuss you and you would never do it. In a similar way, God abhors all sin.
Compared to God, we’re all like toddlers, but we can’t project our own weaknesses onto God because he is far beyond that. Instead, our duty is to seek to receive his mind.
Absolutely! In fact, I like to look at it this way: everything that makes you a more righteous person brings you closer to the nature of God. Righteousness requires discipline, and a lot of it. It is, in essence, maturity. Increasing in righteousness is increasing in maturity, which is becoming more like God. No other supposed form of maturity is anything other than a figment of an individual or society's imagination.
As a proof of concept, take the examples of M-rated movies and alcohol. Society from a legal point of view treats the consumption of these as a mark of maturity. They say that once you reach a certain age, you can "handle them" and not be ruined. Indeed, one of the faulty lines of reasoning we have been warned against from the General Conference pulpit is that we can somehow spiritually mature to a point in this life that we can be immune to the effects of and safely consume something like immoral media. In fact, however, we are always negatively impacted by them. Our desire to even consume them is a manifestation of the impure heart. In other words, it is the desire of a toddler - one who has not matured and become like God.
For years I've been thinking of how we as the human race behave like spiritual toddlers. Sometimes we pray for something we want, begging, crying, complaining, even after we have an answer. "Please, can I have a cookie? Please. Please, please, please. PLEEEEEEASE."
My goodness, I absolutely love this. I recognize the spirit speaking to my heart while listening and calling me to change in the ways I need to. There is so much here that I will listen again and share with my family. I cannot speak enough to how much this impacted me. I’m truly grateful.
Makes me happy! Thank you for the feedback.
Fantastic discussion! Things have felt watered down for some time. It’s been difficult to put my finger on but this discussion really helped. I love the entropy analogy. Things do feel like the 200 years post Christ’s appearance in 3 Nephi. All is not well in Zion.
I call it the General Conference approach. When taught to the Church in general, things are presented according to the least of understanding. The milk crowd, so to speak. Much of the meat is to be found through personal gospel study, temple attendance, etc.
Maybe we are not ready for the greater principles. The problem is not the Church or revelation, the problem is us.
Yes, yes and YES! I have been struggling with this for some time. I don't think things are being watered down necessarily. I think members of the church, specifically, are more worried about checking things off of a list like they are "keeping a commandment" rather than the "doctrine of exhalation" of developing the same character of Christ and God. I look at the general membership, especially in the states and UTAH, and I don't see them living a life that genuinely reflects the Saviors.
I see a people who think as long as I avoid A, B, C and D and then I do my church assignments E, F, G and H consistenly enough and sacrifice just enough, I'm going to be just fine, I will have succeeded in life and I'll be ready for my eternal reward. I think that is completely wrong and that's exactly what many Jews living the Law of Moses felt.
It's not about sacrificing enough or suffering enough to make it back, it's about sacrificing EVERYTHING FOREVER and having the EXACT character of God. Exaltation is about surrendering everything to God, who in turn gives you everything, and then you in turn give everything to your kids. His Character is 100% authenticity and truth and 100% love. We need to be the same. Instead, we worry about the dumbest things and think that if we have enough food storage we'll survive the coming calamities and make it back to Zion on foot with our food storage. 😂😂😂
That's just funny and ridiculous. No Mormons. That's not it. It's about leaving the Telestial world behind and coming into a Terrestrial Millennium life where you learn to literally rely on God for everything. You didn't get there because you were smart, "successful", diligent, talented, hard working and read your scriptures everyday.....
You make it because you have learned to completely surrender your agency and will to that of God, recognizing that you can do NOTHING to save yourself. You are completely powerless. Like the jaredites traveling through the wilderness, or lehi's family or Israel. All of them learned to rely on God daily for EVERYTHING. Surrender to him, follow him and be like him, I'm every way. That's the real answer. Not making a good craft for Relief Society Activity or attending ward council diligently.
@@medeekdesign
I LOVE Bruce Porter! He's one of my all time favorite Church scholars. Such a brilliant but unassuming man. You should put his name in the caption so that his fan club can find him.
Hit me hard when Porter stated the reason we have had dispensations is because the natural state of "man" is entropy ...same as there is biological / physical entropy , there is spiritual entropy.
We in the west, tend to think the natural state of "man" (as good) is a given. Jordan Peterson has pointed out that it takes generations to build up a society morally, spiritually , economically but just 1-2 to destroy it all. We have the advantage of the BOM to see this very clearly. President Benson tried relentlessly to help us see that. "We" ignored that...because "all was well" at the time.
G.K. Chesterton called it "Original Sin" in _Orthodoxy_ and when I was reading it I had the knee-jerk reaction: but we in the Restoration don't believe in Original Sin, do we? Then I put aside such hair-splitting and realized I agreed with Chesterton because he was describing the same kind of human nature that King Benjamin's angel described. OK, OK, we believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression, but we have to accept that men also have a sinful nature.
The idea of our natural state as good: could we trace that to Rousseau? I've been listening to a lot of Dew Discourses commentary about Rousseau as a Gnostic heretic and the purveyor of the host of Progressive projects that beset us. It seems to me that this is the radical lie at the root of such ideas: instead of returning to God's presence through repentance and growth within a mortal existence that God ordained and we chose, the heresy imagines a return to God or a unity without repentance, as an escape from (or destruction of) a System that is oppressive.
@@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp GK is awesome. So many members talk about CS Lewis but not as much of GK yet he should be read. Ive read "orthodoxy" twice and each time I was mesmerized but then at the end of the book I couldn't remember 1/100th of what he said ha. Each sentence is loaded and wordsmithed much like CS Lewis. Thanks for your thoughts
@@ruckin3 Yeah, I had more or less the same experience. Time to read it again.
Exactly 👍!!
Most LDS think a shorter "streamlined" temple experience is better. No thanks, I miss the full length version.
"Commandments are to assist us in developing the character to accomplish the doctrine. And that foundational doctrine is the doctrine of exaltation."
Very well said. Thank you, Bruce and Greg for the fantastic conversation.
you're welcome!
I am so grateful for this video! I have been asked to speak in the leadership session of stake conference on "how can we help parents help their children understand?" and I admit to being completely stumped and prayed for help last night because all I could come up with was extra training meetings? our own example? ugh, I'm terrible at elaborating. And this is my first time being president and don't consider myself a great leader. But this is amazing! Gave me some great ideas! Thank you!!
Great topic! You'll nail it!
"What Happened To Exaltation?"
It was moved to Aisle 13 because of reduced demand.
Haha. A lot of truth in this. Maybe it was moved to the produce section where the healthy foods are. The demand is in the middle aisles with the prepackaged food!
@@CwicShowcandy, soda pop and toilet paper.😂
@@CwicShow That's an excellent comparison! And it's particularly apt with the obesity crisis within the Church (even greater than society writ large, I'd observe).
Solid gold response
Powerfully clarified and testified! Thank you both!
Philosophies of men mingled with scriptures is what is being taught today. Principles of truth are the foundation to the commandments. Using the term principles as you are using it gives a false sense of security Giving the correct labels is very important to not deny the Lords warning and teaching. terminology is critical. I fully agree on the concepts that you are discussing
“Upon my house shall it begin” is the talk I fantasize about hearing in general conference. Love Bruce and this discussion so much and could’ve easily listened another hour about entropy. Or, as it says in Alma, how “the church began to fail in its progress.”
I've noticed this spiritual entropy in the church, namely my ward and stake, for years. But in the last 2 yrs it has been even more pronounced. It's heart-wrenching.
Wow, Greg, this is deep, yet plain and simple to understand. Love this! Thank you so much for sharing your interview with Bruce, and thank you Bruce for sharing the wonderful knowledge you have gained.
Yep! Grateful to Hear Someone Addressing This ~ 🗝Pure Truth Really Matters 🕊
Love this so much! A lot of self reflection took place for me and things to do for my family. Both of you, very insightful, honest and seriously the guest has such humble way about him. Very enlightening.
The act of charity is an act of growth in our journey towards exaltation. God is teaching us the steps necessary to act and think in a higher and holier way which includes loving our neighbors and being charitable. President Nelson also taught recently that even talking and thinking about others whether to their face, behind their back or online should be done in a positive way...a higher and holier way. We may not talk about exaltation being our end goal in a literal sense but we are being asked to be more like God in ways we haven't before. What better way to prepare us to increase our light and hopefully worthiness. Happy Easter! Great video to ponder on Easter too!!
One of the most excellent presentations I have ever heard. Brother Porter's studies are a gift here to us. Thank you
This video is too short! You two bring out the best in each other
Appreciate that!
WOW! Bruce Porter has opened up my mind in the gospel in a much more effective way. I love the old videos from our leaders because they spoke a lot more bluntly than they do today. I don’t fault the new ways of communicating because I think they sense we are so easily offended. We really don’t want to hear the hard truths today.
This discussion really ties into the feminization of our culture. Of course we will increasingly focus on principles as we become increasing offended by doctrine. Feminism has persuaded us to focus on feelings and loving one another over loving and heeding God.
Do you think the over correction to feminizing has anything to do with the over masculinization that history holds?
@@tsmithson1 I think there have been several periods of feminizing cultures throughout history…Sodom and Gomorra, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Persians, 18th century French. It has been one of Satan’s go to attacks on the Plan.
@@tsmithson1perhaps, perhaps not. What does it matter? You cannot right wrongs with other wrongs.
I am always reminded that Christ said the first great commandment was to love God, then the SECOND was to love our neighbors as ourselves.
@@jasonandersen5975 I agree with that last statement, but that has been the sad tale of history.
I had to watch this twice. Such a great discussion. With a friend currently investigating the church this helps remind us why the restored gospel is so powerful.
So incredible!! I often wonder if I'm losing my mind how watered down our gospel has become. Great insight
Nope. So many of us miss it. But it's all still in the teachings and writings of the prophets.
I crave these types of discussions. They are not offensive. I feel the new watered down Gospel is more offensive. I listened to this all the way to The House of The Lord this morning and loved it so much I listened to it all the way back home 🏡
Can't wait for the conference this Saturday.
Great discussion. Very stimulating. Thanks!
Thank you so much for having brother Porter on. as a convert to the Church, it’s the truth that Drew me in and spoke to me not the fluff, but the hard facts and the fact that I can return to my father in heaven, by following truths.
You only return to your Father in Heaven by keeping the commandments. And having them written on your hearts. Read what the rich man asked Jesus.
These details are so comforting
This was a fantastic interview! I could listen to him speak all day. This is the nuts and bolts of the gospel, and it is refreshing to hear it be discussed.
Thanks for the clarity and explanations!!!
I always come away from your discussions with Bruce with so much to ponder!! Another great show Greg!!!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for your work Greg. Providing a definition of terms goes a long way in discussions like these. Several key terms in this discussion present a variety of meanings. For example, truth, law, doctrine, glory, unclean, faith, exaltation, and atonement allow for multiple conceptual interpretations without straying outside of allowable belief within the restored gospel. I’ve always appreciated Blake Ostlers efforts to define terms before arguing for a given view of LDS thought/doctrine.
Loved this episode. Very edifying and informative. I will likely be going over this again to get the scriptures I missed while I was working. Greg, you have such incredible content that really helps me grow and maintain my testimony of everything. Particularly those things we should focus on but may not be. Thanks again.
Really appreciate that!
This was an awesome interview. Thanks for having Bruce on.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I think President Oaks and President Nelson's talks on "Kingdoms of Glory" and "Think Celestial", respectively, are examples of these principles and doctrines being taught to the Saints. So, it is being done. As a focus in our weekly meetings, maybe it should be moreso. The Plan of Salvation is such a wonderful plan that our Heavenly Father has created for us, and it is all related to His work and glory.
Thanks for this great discussion. I think it is important and I would agree completely with it. Much of the discussion is a parallel with a discussion by Elder Bednar in chapter 4 of his book “increase in learning”. Highly recommended for some follow-up study. Both this podcast and Elder Bednar‘s book are highly scripturally based and that is refreshing.
This. Hands down, probably one of the best. Thanks to both
Wonderful. So clear. So beautiful. Thank you. carol
Thank you to the both of you ❤
Just want to point out that President Oaks gave a talk last conference (Oct 2023) titled Kingdoms of Glory. He describes the Plan of Salvation and Exaltation in pretty good detail.
What a powerful perspective! I love longform conversations like this.
What an incredible interview. Bruce Porter has a wealth of knowledge. Thanks to you both!!!!
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@CwicShow But Porter doesn't know everything.
I love what Brother Porter says about God and that he has gone beyond the point of even thinking about making a bad choice. It reminds me of a story I heard about Elder Faust. He was asked once to give the opening prayer at the Utah State house to open the legislative meetings there at that time. Someone came up to him and said I hear you are a democrat? To which Elder Faust responded, “Oh well, I have risen above such things.” Then proceeded to offer the prayer.
I like the discussion. This last week in Jacob Hanson's facebook group we've been debating whether God knows how we'll use our agency before we use it. Many people seem to think that a God who knows how we use our agency will rob us of agency.
I wouldn't have the patience for that. Not for the members who don't already understand that God knows all things, from the beginning to end. And not for those who equate God's foreknowledge with impeding their agency. There should be no debate here.
What an incredibly edifying discussion! Thank you for inviting such provacative considerations to know more of Gods nature and our divine path
There is a deeper level to contemplate for man and for woman - regarding beings requiring cleanliness to be in the presence of God - what beauty and glory there is in His work and glory for man!
You will not survive spiritually unless you build your relationship with the holy Spirit, the testator of truth. If you want to find the richness of the Gospel, you can find it. Greg and Bruce, your living proof of that fact my friends.
Thinking was a great discussion. Thank you for your time and effort.
Best podcast this far. Hit the nail right squarely on the HEAD.
Been trying to put words to all my similar feelings for some time. This was it.
Watered down… principle based… philosophies of men, mingled with scripture. Too much of that in our meetings, quorums and classes, and and even GC.
I miss the good old days. I feel alone in my feelings, yearnings and studies. I know many of you feel the same.
So interesting to ponder that this is because this is what “the market” wants, or can handle. That also feels so true to me. However I do wish at least the leadership would stay the course and teach doctrines, repentance etc more.
Just last week I made a comment to my wife about how we never hear anybody in sacrament meeting talk about the gospel of repentance or the need to repent . Amazing to hear the same from your guest.
Please have him back. Love his knowledge, his thinking and his style. Super gentle.
Jeff in order to repent you have to know what sin you committing. And everyone that talks they think if they say atonement, they think they know what they are talking about, they are robbing themselves of the knowledge required to obtain the reward
Jesus said Moses gave the people divorce because "of the hardness of their hearts." We have a lot going on (e.g. watered down Endowment) because of the hardness of the hearts of the Saints. No eternal marriage should EVER end in divorce. Yet 30% of the mature members of my ward are divorced, some more than once.
@@rolandsmith4394 as I’ve thought about it… maybe it’s not so clear what came first. It’s a chicken and egg thing. It’s hard to hold onto pure truth in a telestial world.
@@rolandsmith4394 not only that but nobody knows any better. They think as long as they get a legal divorce, and a second legal marriage they are still in good standing with God. Not only is it nonsense, but the church allows those 2nd 3rd 4th marriages to be considered holy. It's straight up Adultery.
@@rolandsmith4394 not only that but you can go get a time only marriage right there in the temple. I have a hard time holding my emotions in talking to people that believe such nonsense
Thank you for having Bruce Porter on.I think he's amazing.His knowledge and understanding of the scriptures is probably one of the best.I've heard in many many years
Agreed!
Truth is spoken here. Thanks.
Elder Bednar, in his book, "Increase in Learning" has a chapter on Doctrine, Principles and Applications which is very close to what Bruce Porter has discussed with you.
In the apostle John’s day, the conversation was clear on man becoming gods (kings an queens) with Christ in the midst of the throne (Rev. 3:21). Paul talked about being co-inheritors with Christ (Rom. 8:17).
Loved this! I thought of the same principle when we read about nephi being bound in the ship by his brothers. When we bind the prophets we lose our way. There is a contingent of members who absolutely does not want delineated standards and doctrines unfortunately. They are demanding a watered-down version of the world instead of the peculiar treasure.
Just listening to this for the first time and I love all the truths. It is so true that laws are not doctrine, and also that this church is agency based. One thing that was concerning was that doctrines in the plural form represent all the myriad doctrines of Satan. We have only one doctrine in our church and that is the doctrine of Christ. So anytime we talk about our doctrine. It needs to be singular. There are many points of doctrine under that. I just wanted to clarify that and a couple other things. The other thing is that doctrine is all about the WHY of what we do, principles flow from doctrine and they tell us the WHAT to do. Applications are HOW we live the principles. we have moved away from teaching applications in our church and that has been an incredible jump toward doctrine. I remember reading The Miracle of Forgiveness on my mission and thinking it was a great book. But when I read it as an adult much later, I saw that it was filled with application and how we should do things. Elder Anderson has now come out with a book of principles on what to do to live the doctrine of Christ. That book is called the Divine gift of forgiveness. Again, the church is moving away from teaching application to teaching principles in order to live more closely to the doctrine.
The third thing that I thought was off was that “Christ is not coming because there is a people prepared but because there is a people unprepared.” On the contrary, as I understand it, Christ is coming no matter what because he has to come according to all of the prophecies. He is going to come, and there will be people prepared and there will not be people prepared. That is true based on agency and human nature. So, I think the strong point here is that Christ is coming to fulfill the ends of the earth. He is not coming because there are or there are not people prepared, he is coming because that is part of his mission. The doctrine of the church and the principles that flow from it are those things that are going to help each one of us be prepared for His Coming!
Great episode!
Marvelously clear!
It's all so clear!
I had a realization/reminder that I need to read the D&C more.
Great job!
Thank you for the clarification on so many things that are happening in and out of the church
It all comes down to this why some people feel the commandments and the Church are hurtful and dangerous:
Helaman 12:6
6 Behold, they do not desire that the Lord their God, who hath created them, should rule and reign over them; notwithstanding his great goodness and his mercy towards them, they do set at naught his counsels, and they will not that he should be their guide.
The reality is that some people don't want or believe they can change. Therefore, the Church is evil or hurtful for making me feel so guilty for being who he created me to be whether that is I'm naturally inclined to have premarital sex or any other weakness I'm struggling with when society claims it is natural and good to experiment and find out who I am.
I get frustrated as a Gospel Doctrine teacher. My class is mostly 60+ and members for just as long, but when I try to talk about the meatier matters, such as the doctrine of exaltation or the Second Coming, I can almost hear the crickets 🦗
Great discussion. Loved when you said Greg, it can be an anchor for those who struggle with mental illness ✋It is for me, I sometimes think I am too obsessed with end times, second coming, but it helps me hang in there.
There is going to come a time where Gods love is not going to feel like love. There are some hard truths coming our way where (sort of speaking) god isn’t going to care about your feelings, what is coming is going to come and it is our personal responsibility to be ready for that time. We don’t need love we need the spirit with us.
To put it slightly differently, instead of mercy cannot rob justice, it could also be put that charity cannot rob justice.
1:28 The hierarchical structure: eternal laws, eternal truths, doctrines, and commandments
2:57 Eternal laws are things that cannot change or God would cease to be God
4:32 God's agency and character - he has progressed to a point where he will not do evil
6:36 Eternal laws are the foundation, with eternal truths resting upon them
8:43 The one foundational doctrine that everything rests upon: God's plan for our exaltation
11:58 Defining doctrine vs eternal truths with examples
14:35 Moses ch1 vrs39 as an eternal truth - God's unchanging work and glory
17:09 Moving away from the doctrine of exaltation distorts other gospel principles
19:35 Exaltation provides purpose, meaning and direction to help with mental health issues
21:26 Ordinances as a hope of a future reality, tied to the doctrine of exaltation
23:10 When we simplify too much, people may be shocked by the mysteries of the temple
25:24 Finding a middle ground between purely utilitarian worship and excessive symbolism
27:51 The dangers of the church becoming swept along by societal trends
30:10 The temple is disorienting for those used to everything having a simple explanation
32:32 A Catholic perspective on the vital yet "useless" nature of worship and ritual
34:25 Society's need for the playful and mysterious aspects of faith
35:31 Problems arise when members assign false meaning to arbitrary rules
36:30 Nephi's warning about saying "all is well in Zion" as a sign of spiritual entropy
39:28 Policies are leadership's way to administer the gospel and can change
41:36 Focusing on eternal laws and truths gives clarity to perplexing historical issues
44:04 The gospel of repentance and changing our character is discussed too little
45:50 The shift from doctrinal to principle-based teaching in the church and its materials
47:42 God allows us our agency as a church and we will receive what we are willing to accept
48:28 In premortality, God explained the plan and what he provides to help us return to him
Love these, Baz!
47:06 This. Thank you for correctly placing the blame on the people and not the brethren. Far too many of these online discussions start out in a wonderful place but eventually devolve into direct or implied critique of our leadership. D&C 121:43 is the principle involved when we read the fiery sermons recorded in the Book of Mormon and elsewhere in scripture, but this was when and only when the prophets were moved upon by the Holy Ghost to do so. Considering the number of sermons recorded vs the time periods involved, that was not every 6 months.
God will give us all the truth we are prepared for, both individually and collectively as a people, and currently the people are just not there.
I've noticed repeated General Conference addresses against greed and entitlement and excess for the past 20+ years.
Great stuff!!!
Thanks!
This is very similar to my personal study of what I called the Hierarchy of Intelligence (Light & Truth). It’s still in the works, but this interview has helped solidify some thoughts I had about this. I’ll also have to add an Eternal Laws level to my model.
-Fundamental doctrine (unchanging, eternal, simple, saving, truths) - David A. Bednar explains this level in a devotional at Rick’s College Campus Education Week, 4 June 1998. The character and nature of God, family, exaltation, divine identity, priesthood, revelation, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and the plan of salvation are examples of this level.
-Supplemental doctrine (unchanging, mortal, saving, truths) - The new and everlasting covenant, work of salvation, temples, restoration of the gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ, personal and institutional revelation through prophets and scripture are examples of this level.
-Religious truths (unchanging, mortal, truths) - Book of Mormon, procedure of ordinances, modesty, killing, most commandments fall under this level
-Worldly truths (unchanging, eternal/mortal, truths) - Physics, Chemistry, Biology, History, Psychology, Mathematics, Economics, Engineering, Architecture, Construction, Geology, and Geography
-Gospel Theories (changing, eternal/mortal, non-saving) - Was God always God, progression between kingdoms after judgment, foreknowledge of God and agency, BoM Geography, creation & evolution, and private interpretations of scripture fall under this level
-World Theories (changing, mortal) - there are a lot of things that fall under this level
The categories below are mixed all throughout and support different levels of the Hierarchy of Intelligence (Light & Truth)
-Character - the consistent mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual.
-Principles - Doctrinally based guidelines for what we ought to do.
-Commandment - Something that is ordered or demanded from an authority
-Method - a procedure, technique, strategy, or way of doing something, especially in accordance with a definite plan
-Policy/Procedure/Rule - Prudent or expedient conduct or action
-Program - a plan or system under which action may be taken towards a goal.
-Culture - The attitudes and behavior characteristic of a particular social group
Wow...thx for posting. I am going to print that out!
Our heavenly father designed the Gospel and eternal ordinance to give us opportunity to choose for our selves because he also went through the same process.those who will be faithful and obey they will receive the same glory.i love the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints.theore people make fun of our beliefs the more my testimony is strengthen.thanks for the show am your fellow brother from Uganda.
The most frustrating thing is living with people who think they are getting exaltation, and not a single one is obeying the laws that the blessings are predicted from.
Agree! And for me I realized I’m falling into that trap also.
The way out, is realizing our situation. 👍
Loved the discussion, but looking for more explanation on how "principles" were being held in lower regard than "truth" I've always used them interchangeably for the most part.
For clarity: prin·ci·ple

noun
1.
a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.
"the basic principles of Christianity"
I’ll do a follow up
@@CwicShow🙏 many thanks
We need to seek to exalt God, not ourselves.
Bruce always speaks clearly and doesn’t mince words. Thanks for doing this, if we want safety, we need to be where safety can be found.
The doctrine of the Family and eternal marriage is necessary to fulfill the doctrine of exhaultation
Not where much is given "much is expected," but "much is REQUIRED." (emphasis added)
Sign me up for the ward with President Matsen in the Elders Quorum and Brother Porter as Elder Quorum teacher(or Sunday School could work too) ! 🙋Great discussion! I recently have been think about/studying this topic (Eternal Laws and the Nature of God) on the way through the Book of Mormon- thank you for the insights all around.
This is why we need to search the scriptures. We can't rely on church to be taught. We need to be aware of the prophecies of the future and understand who we are as children of God to make the right choices within the covenant path towards eternity. There are degrees of glory for a reason. Not all will be valiant! No unclean thing... one eternal round.
Loved the discussion. I have long felt that we have a misunderstanding of the role of commandments among the gen pop of the church. They are there to help us become like our Savior. They are not punitive rules or God’s way of domineering over us. They are guides to help us elevate our character closer to Heavenly Father’s. When we see them that way it takes some of the heaviness away and it think it allows us to accept the Atonement in our lives more as we focus more on becoming like Heavenly Father and focus less on trying to avoid messing up
Very good.
Euphythro’s Dilemma has been around for generations: is God good because He abides by eternal truth and laws OR are eternal truths and laws good because they describe God who is in and of himself good?
I don’t love these Ancient Greek riddles, but we’re still wrestling with them today
i appreciate Brother Porter so much and have learned much from him.
Thank you, loved this video. Please bring this guest back
I agree, Brother Porter is someone I can learn so much from.
OK, I went back and watched from the beginning and my husband joined me. You were not talking about polygamy but I have a new question. When my husband and I looked up section 49 and neither of us could find where it said for one man and one women to be "sealed". What version are you reading from? Maybe an older version? Thanks.
Admittedly, I didn't have time to watch this but the heading caught my eye. How do you interpret the frequent refrain within the Book of Mormon "If you keep my commandments, ye shall prosper in the land?" Also, within the text, when the people are humble and turn to God they are blessed with material gain (not figuratively, but literally). They become prosperous and wealthy and then forget God, who then "hedges up their way" and their riches are taken from them. In the church, we call this the pride cycle, but it could just as easily be titled the "prosperity gospel." As a youth, I learned and believed in the prosperity gospel because I read the BOM. Again, the verse goes "if you keep my commandments you shall PROSPER in the land."
I’m not sure that really has much to do with actual money… the inverse of this is “ if you do not keep the commandments ye are swept off the land” so when we keep the commandments we are growing as a people both spiritually and in number, we are hard working, we repent, we are happy and as a result of all that most times we gain riches. There were times when they weren’t necessarily rich, but were the happiest because they were being righteous. When we are are doing Gods work, we are creative, industrious, and prosper in the land (we can inherit the land- ie celestial kingdom) When the people aren’t following God, and they don’t have the spirit, then they are more likely to become idle, less inspired, more annoyed with their brother, more envious… etc. which would then make it so you don’t prosper or inherit the land (swept off) I kinda lost my train of thought but may be something to think about. We receive blessings when we obey the law upon which that blessing is predicated. We don’t become righteous so we can get riches, but sometimes that is a consequence. My 2 cents anywho
Very good. Now take the principle that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God back to our pre-mortal existence. How long as spirit children were we allowed to stay with our Heavenly Parents before we had to leave and grow away from home.? Remember, we had agency there. Put this in context with what John said in Rev. 5 and we most likely shared his experience as we grew and developed. When the hosts of heaven shouted for joy, it was based on the principles found in Section 93. Just a thought.
When we talk about the plan that God prepared, is it not also based on eternal principles? The plan of redemption and the doctrine of Christ must also be based on eternal principles and not something God invented.
I have thought for awhile that Eternal Laws are the laws of all exalted beings have to follow, and that that is why we are all tested and tempered on an earth. So, one God cannot let a bad seed through to possibly be among them.
Truth!
This is very much the doctrine and perspective I was raised with and taught my own children.
By have not until recently recognized that Heavenly Father is in fact not omnipotent because he is subject to eternal natural law. Omnipotent would describe one with unlimited power.
Saying that God is not Omnipotent is false doctrine. Just because a perfect God would never choose to break eternal laws does not make him less powerful. It makes him in perfect control of his decisions, using his agency to always use his power for righteous purposes. Being able to do that perfectly all the time is the very definition of a God. Christ had all power and could’ve stopped the Crucifixion at any moment, but using his agency after being completely abandoned by the Father, still chose not to exercise that power to put a stop to the pain. It didn’t make him any less powerful as a God because he chose to allow the carrying out of the Fathers plan to completion. The perfect choice not to act, was the Godlike choice to withhold, rather than exercising the power he had to stop it.
@@mindylinton9249 I understand that it sounds wrong but the definition of omnipotent juxtaposed the Doctrine taught in this episode, (good old school LDS theology), they are not the same.
It may feel uncomfortable even blasphemous to discuss such things but it’s worthy of investigation. Questioning something does not affect or change reality, only offers us the chance to gain clarity in our understanding.
With that said, let me share the troubling similarities I see with the theology taught in this episode albeit the theology I’ve always believed and had never considered in any real depth until now. It seems to me that a God that we believe will always choose goodness but who is not constrained to do so be a more powerful than one who is bound or constrained to do so?
In a strange way It reminds me a lot of the plan Satan offered in the preexistence, guaranteeing his children would return because Satan would take away their agency to choose otherwise.
It’s strange to me to think that the glory and goodness of God is so, due to our certainty that he is constrained to be so.?.
Now that I think about it, I have always believed God to be omnipotent in that he follows natural law because he chose to, not because he had to and he does so for whatever good purpose it provides in the outcome of all things.
It’s the flip side of HF’s plan sending us here with agency to prove ourselves. Agency was the key, right? Likewise God’s agency is a vital part of his being all powerful, the great I Am. We believe he has become our creator though continual growth, experience and learning which is gained through opposition, right? So to believe that some point in Godhood his agency is gone or grows to a point of such perfection he cannot choose other than “good” “right”…. Seems to be more about the comfort and certainty of his children. It’s much more comfortable for some to have legalistic absolutes but is not so for me. It would be to strip a being whom we believe to be a perfected beautiful human individual into an automaton, a droid, an absolute, predictable 😑 blah creature.
I’m going to go do some more study on this. I know that it is not settled, the apostles and prophets have deferred in their understanding and perception of God. Thanks for caring enough to comment, rebut and read my thoughts. 🙏🏼
In my copy of the D&C 49:16-17 16 says what you read but 17 reads: And that it might be filled with the measure of man, according to his creation before the world was made. Mine read differently than yours so I looked it up on the church website and it read the same as my copy. Thanks.
Something else to ponder, The ordinances of the Temple are a foreordination of life with God. Much like how were were foreordained to baptized, receive the priesthood, and the temple ordinances.
This one was worth my time. Thanks.
"Christ doesn't come because there is a Zion people prepared for him". I struggle with so many things in the church. Elder Bednar said it was the fault of the church members that Christ hasn't returned yet because we are not righteous enough. I was thinking that we would be in an unrighteous state when Christ returns. I will be honest, Just before that, I don't know if Bruce was talking about polygamy when he talked about section 49 because I fell asleep a few minutes in, not because I was bored but because I was very tired, so I will have to go back and listen to that part. What he said was, and he brought it out very distinctly, that marriage was between one man and one woman to be sealed and have children. I believe that Brigham Young made a terrible mistake when he and his friends brought polygamy into the church and it caused a lot of suffering for most of the women and children along with some of the men. Polygamy destroys the bond between husband and wife and damages the children. That, I believe, was a false doctrine of man and did not come from God as Jacob2 is very clear about polygamy is not of God and is an abomination. Bruce can you help me with this as I have been very torn for a long time on this issue and I have so many questions I would like to have answered. I will go back and listen to the part I missed. Thanks to both of you for being here on this podcast.
Excellent discussion. These things should be fundamental to the education of every member of the Church!
My thoughts: God exercised His Agency to become an Agent of Righteousness and Holiness. If he were to go back on this agency choice he would cease to be God. But he is constant and unchanging, so he will not. We should learn from this - if we make an agency choice we should stick to it, otherwise cease to be agents of God and instead became agents to a devil and we need to repent. Thanks be to God for the mercy of Christ!
Similarly, a religion that goes back on the doctrines upon which it is founded ceases to be a religion. A true religion cannot change its foundation any more than God cannot change, or he would cease to be God.
A friend of mine believes the adam and eve story says god was there in thr garden with them. But how could he be if adam and eve took of the fruit. I do not believe it says that but its his opionion. What are your thoughts on this?
Would you say “Opposition in ALL things” would be in the category of a law?
The October 2023 general conference was full of unchanging doctrines and eternal truths and look at how many were offended, in particular by President Oak’s talk which was my favorite. If there is a watering down it’s happening at the lower levels of Gods kingdom, not at the top, it’s important to clarify lest we speak ill of the lord’s anointed.
When I speak of the Church, I am speaking of its literal meaning, "Assembly/Congregation." A big problem we have in the "Church" is viewing it as Salt Lake.
I was incredible relieved that they doubled down on our fundamental doctrines. I IMMEDIATELY knew there would be backlash and “many who were offended”. But it’s truth. And a prophet’s job is to preach truth and repentance. Whenever a doctrine feels “hard to hear”, it’s usually because I need to study more, pray and repent
President Oak's talk was my favorite, as well. Can't wait for his turn at the helm.
I absolutely LOVED President Oak's talk, it was refreshing and comforting to hear plain doctrine truths, free from the influence of current social trends. I'm sure it offended many within the Church.
"And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted." Matt. 23:12. How does this not enter the discussion? Come on.
One of the questions (and concerns) I have had since I was a child is can we the gentiles fail? Is it possible we fail at building Zion so Christ can return and instead through our gluttony and pride are wiped off the earth passing the responsibility from the Stick of Joseph to the Stick of Judah. It feels more and more like a reality.
They already failed. And a curse has rested upon the whole church, and will remain until they repent.
I believe there is a way prepared through the tribulations and the work that needs to be done as has been prophesied. We have a God who can do things we can not do. We have prophets past and present. We have the spirits being sent to the earth having being held in reserve for “such a time as this.” The hosts of heaven gathered in our favor to minister and aid in bringing about God’s purposes. We have many gifts of the Spirit given in abundance. I think it’s an interesting question you ask and I’d leave some very modesty room for God do work out events as he will do of course but lean into the belief that most likely the prophecies will be fulfilled as they have been given. I trust in what’s been given through revelation to be what happens. It’s also most logical to me that God will do as he has said he will.
When looking into the account of Enoch’s Zion it was reported to have taken them 365 yrs to become a Zion people. It’s likely going to be a process but the inhabitants of that Zion will be available to help us in our objectives. I hope this helps.
I missed a discussion about God the Son being able to take on mortality and "mask" or hide his glory while he was on the earth from those he had to encounter. How was this done?
I would have lumped principles and doctrines on the same group. Can you give an example of policy vs principles vs doctrine?
I’m confused though. I thought we are supposed to become a Zion people and be prepared for His coming. We are taught in GC about preparing the second coming. Which is it? We prepare? Or we won’t be prepared? No New Jerusalem? Sorry. I need help understanding