Sourcing Parts for a Hardware Product
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2021
- Lucian has been working hard on sourcing parts for the Index Pick and Place, getting in samples and negotiating with vendors! In this one, I build up three PnPs to use for motherboard assembly, and Lucian gets into how he works his magic and finds suppliers for all the items in the machine.
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Lucian needs to start a CZcams channel where he explains all the tips and tricks for manufacturing a product. I find it very difficult to find resources on this topic that make sense and are relevant. Awesome video though. Do you plan on eventually finding someone to build these at scale or do you plan to do all the packaging yourself?
Oh hey it me 😅
Have you all reached out to LDO? Jason at LDO has done a lot for the Voron Community releasing quality parts: extrusion, steppers, and whole build kits.
I love your whole documentation of "How to do an Open Source Hardware Project, and Mid-Scale Manufacturing" process, it's a niche that wasn't really filled until you started this channel, and now others can take this in-depth example / information, and we can get a bunch of new Open Source Hardware projects going !
Is this an actual document or just this channel specifically? If there is a pdf would love to know the link
Yeah, once you start ramping, having someone dedicated to parts sourcing and management is key - This is something I really struggle with still being a one man band. Maybe I can borrow Lucian? ;) Seriously though, it's super exciting too see you so close to kicking things off. Keep up the great work!!!!
What Lucian says about being available in their timezone and being easy to communicate to is SO important in my experience. As a small player, you're often talking to fairly junior sales people at the larger vendors, and they never have people go out of their way to convenience them. They do notice, and they do give you special treatment as a result - going as far as putting their neck on the line with their boss in some cases. If it wasn't for doing that (as exhausting as it can be), we could've never crossed the mid-scale manufacturing chasm.
Just lived through this to your next stage a few months ago. I'm between the 100 - 2000 shipped unit quantity. So some unsolicited learnings. On Re-order or larger orders you can start getting a few new pain points. QA can drop from samples. Had a run of 1000 pcs and logo's were all askew by 2 degrees but samples were perfect. Import tariffs (not Tax, but also that). How things get defined when they ship to you can be very important. The higher value your order is the more scrutiny it'll get and the more likely multipiece shipments will not arrive at the same time. Having the plate for sale likely has you learning a lot about shipping, but if you have a big draw on launch day things can get rough. While not a patreon, I'd launch to them first with a 2 week buffer when it comes time because this will serve as your lower volume (maybe?) learning point on how the shipping packaging process goes.
Thanks for the advice, much appreciated!
One thing I find extremely important is having a person who is not familiar with a project write the instructions. As designers we have a tendency to fill in the gaps with our assumptions and familiarity with the project.
The joy you have throughout all your videos is so inspiring! Thank you for all your work, I've been following since the beginning of this project and I'm so excited to see it come to this point.
Fantastic project you've got going there - looking very much forward to follow as you progress! Keep up the good work :)
As one of those who recommended it to you I’m glad you’re happy with your brand new Prusa Mini. Whew :)
Get a glass bed, a metal extruder and capricorn tubing and you'll fall in love with the Ender 3.
This video could not have come at a better time for me. THANK YOU. I am learning so much from following this journey.
Thanks for sharing your experience working on your sourcing!
Most of those printed parts are available for the standard aluminum extrusions for less than it costs to print and mostly out of metal.
Man after seeing this I am so glad I went with Prusa printers for my print farm of two printers 😆
But seriously, if you need consistency and reliability, but still want to make use of a really strong community out there, Prusa is the way to go.
Regarding the Enders: replace the extruder with a metal extruder, use capricorn ptfe tubing and quality fittings. If you install the printer printer properly and add this upgrades for ~30$ you got a fairly reliabel printer
agree, or just slap on a Bondtech BMG (clone) instead of the existing extruder, the exitsting plastic extruder is the weakest point of that machine
Specifically a dual gear metal extruder.
Though at print farm scale, the Prusa is probably the better option. After all, Prusa uses their own machines in a print farm, and has developed the newer models based on that experience.
@@Blamm83 You have to invert your extrusion ratio with the bondtech style gearing right?
@@MrFaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa not sure if you need to invert it, but the ratio does change because a BMG is geared
Until the cables die...
Your story with the Ender 3 and Prusa Mini is pretty much exactly the same as mine. The Ender 3 was a great way for me to get into 3D printing, but I spent so much time trying to fix it that I never got to do anything with it!
I'm looking forward to the "The Road to 100,00 Original Index PnPs" video where we get to see your huge print and PnP farm
Honestly this video was really interesting and informative too! Hope to see more!
If you want to try salvaging your Creality printers.... I had similar experiences with my Creality CR-10S Pro - months of jamming, failed prints, - the complete opposite of my Prusa Mk2, which just keeps on working. The game changer for me was when I got tired of CR-10S Pro failed prints and decided to replace the stock extruder and hot end assembly with a direct drive BMG extruder and Mosquito hot end. I have never been so impressed with a piece of aftermarket equipment - the Mosquito/BMG combo has turned my CR-10S Pro into an absolute production monster. IIRC, in the 8 months since I have been operating it with the new extruder/hot end, I have had exactly two failed prints, and one of those was due to using a reel of filament that contained approximately as much water as Lake Huron. And my average print quality has increased substantially as a nice side effect. I have no connection to BMG or Slice Engineering - I am just a very impressed and happy customer..
Good extra sourcing behind the scenes !!
You guys are going to crush it!!! i can't wait to see it :)
Started looking into finding some of the index components last week to build one for myself. Didn’t get very far before realizing the public BOM wasn’t quite there yet. Super excited to hear you guys are already working on kits! Ready to purchase as soon as they’re available! More than will to pre-pay if helps on your end and wait patiently. :)
I bought a prusa i3 Mk3 when it was available for preorder and despite the thousands of hours of printing over the past 4-5 years I think I have only had like 6-7 prints fail on me. Prusas are great if you want a machine that just works.
Enders are more for if you are unsure about buying a 3d printer and are willing to play around with it at least a little bit.
You forgot to mention the part where your Ender breaks after every 2nd or 3rd print.
@@mattportnoyTLV I don't have an ender 3 so I couldn't say
@@JonathanKayne lucky you.
@@mattportnoyTLV yeah I had an anet a8 before I got my prusa so I never really had a reason to buy an ender 3. I only know this stuff from other CZcamsrs and my friends who have one.
This was a super interesting watch, especially about the part sourcing. I agree with another commenter, Lucian should have his own channel of short videos about how to source products and what to expect when trying to manufacture something. Well done!
I'll have to see what parts have changed since I last printed the index and finally get the hardware/mobo ordered. Been procrastinated an awful lot. great update
The Prusa Mini is a great machine. I assembled a clone kit by hand, and it's without a doubt the single best printer I've ever had. That's coming from someone who's used four printers before it, including an Ender 3.
as an aspiring product development engineer, this has very helpful tips
Great video! Thanks!
Thank you so much for showing your Ender 3s. I noticed that you had the power supplies mounted on the outside back rail and this inspired me. I have an Ender 5 Plus and it has been shutting off on large prints. I suspected the power supply. So I stupidly ordered a 450W PS without checking the size requirements. Today I opened the package intent on installing the new PS only to see that it did not fit. I was resigned to the fact that I would have to find another small PS that fit. BUT!! I saw your video. With some M3 screws, T-Nuts, some rewiring, and Bobs your uncle I am back in business with a good quality MeanWell PS. Thank you!!
Oh boy, I love your videos. I'm seriously trying to think of a reason to need a PnP just to be able to build one :)
Great video!!
Great project
Thanks for sharing your expirences with all af us :-)
Working with an electronics distributor could be helpful too in the early stages! They usually have sales reps specific to smaller startups and their line cards are big with lots of different supplier options to compare. Seems like sampling from DigiKey or Mouser is still pretty popular by most of the engineers I know
Thanks for the video, you’re the real MVP!
Get glass beds, and ill send you my Ender3 print settings for PrusaSlicer, its probably a speed issue(?). Once the bed is levelled, I don't need to do anything to my ender 3s, ever. Ill just send prints down to my basement from Octoprint and go pick them up when they finish. Once they're setup, they will just keep making parts just like the prusa. Only thing I have to do is wipe the glass beds when they get completely covered in dust because of the work I'm doing in my basement, or after a bunch of prints Ill use a degreaser on the glass bed because there is some oil or something that comes off of the PLA that can mess with the adhesion.
This is great stuff. Next wave manufacturing. I do the same thing, and I think I could make good use of your products.
Looking forward to purchasing an Index (kit)........I'll be using it for low production assembly of my products. Bring it on!
go Lucian! love to see it :D
you are great the future looks bright with you in it
I realize this is literally a year out of date, but there are so many more options now for more tooly 3d printers.
Like the new Bambulab X1 that is a corexy, does auto calibration on everything (including things like input shaper) and prints super fast (like actually, not the fake fast speeds many vendors post).
It was a kickstarter but will be on sale soon.
Theres of course also the Prusa XL but that's a couple years out.
Then, there are a bunch of cheap printers which have really improved the experience with nozzle based bed level probing and less terribly designed and qa parts like CR6s.
3:26 dang this is a really good point. My trusty Ultimaker Original that I've had since 2014 just broke pretty hard. It's fixable, but I too am at the point where my tools can't themselves also be projects.
It seems that you are almost ready to ship kits. I will definitely order a machine one as soon as it becomes available. Hopefully very soon.
My Personal experience with the Ender 3.. I had so many issues but now I'm at a state where I power it up (Even after 5 months unused) clean the glass bed and it prints
Changing the Extruder to the metal(red) CR10 solved the problem with not enough strength and also solved clogging?..
Changing the springs to the yellow springs fixed bed being unlevel after some times
Then I also changed the fittings, specially the one at the extruder.
Also did many other mods but these few mods surely did the biggest differences! I really agree that Ender 3 is "overrated" because you need to do many upgrades and tweaking to get it up running.
I just took my time building it and mine works fine
@@lucasc5622 Yeah that is the issue.. Some are really lucky with their Ender 3 and everything just works out of the box, other have to tweak the living S**t out of theirs to get it operating.
It is really inconsistent if your Ender 3 is working really well or having so many issues
@@decee1157 i have bought my ender 3 a year ago and it still gives me problems...
The only stock parts are the extruder, the frames and the motors...
I'm starting to think about getting a new heartbreak and quality fittings but how to figure out which are good?
I get perfect Ender 3 v1 prints.Get the Yellow bed springs and tighten them almost all the way down. I upgraded to an aluminum Dual gear extruder, just a clone for about $12. Clone BL Touch optional about $15 (works perfectly). I have 2 and the prints are flawless.
I recently experienced the same issues with my Ender 3, read somewhere the same fix and got the idler broke same as @Stephen Hawes. Now, I am waiting for a metal extruder block.
I have issues sometimes on my ender CR-6 max. It's a good printer, only issue is a long bowden tube that needs a long retract setting. The issue complicates because for parts with lots of retracts, I believe it heat-shares upwards over the heat break. The filament driver is nastiness to service too, making it hard basket for drive-dog checks.
Hey Stephen look forward to your kits, any idea about the pricing, though I understand this is pretty early to ask for
My 3D printing farm is entirely based on Flashforge Guider 2's. They are more expensive but they come out of the box get levelled ones and print for houres and houres without any problems and failures. All parts printed on my machines are ABS and I have about 0.5% failed prints. The first Flashforge I've bought is 10 months old and made so far 1240 hours of printing. Bed levelling has been done once so far... No blocked nozzles or other shitty maintenance was necessary... No broken parts... I call it my easy bake oven. It is a workhorse perfect for micro-manufacturing. It is the first 3D printer I worked with which is a tool and not a hobby.
Nice video, with a lot of good information. What different kits will be the different offered ? ( Complete, motor/wiring, (nuts and bolts ), 3d printed pieces ) When will the kits be available? I think your staging plate is feeling lonely.
Careful with the Prusa Mini!
If you twist the X-axis arm, the printer will print a rhombus instead of a perfectly squared rectangle!!
I am a mechanical engineer.. tested 2 of these minis and ended up returning them! Super easy to get the x axis out of alignment because there is one wimpy 3d-printed part holding 2 smooth Rods in a cantilever.
I can forward you some of the emails I sent the prusa team. They only contain part of the problem and no offered solutions. I usual run out of energy working the 9-5, so all I can offer now is caution ⚠️ on the minis.
Be sure to continue to qc all of these items, buying "straight from a manufacturer" is no guarantee of quality these days. From my experience things will be fine for a while, then when they've realized you have stopped checking.. quality will slowly slip.
The Ender3s sound like they have plugged nozzles. Especially since it only happened after some time.
I'm building a custom 3D printer just for making myself an Index (or three?), and the Prusa printers are arguably the best production units out there because Josef Prusa designed them to be precise enough, and more importantly, repeatably consistent enough, to be self-replicating - Pruse uses Prusas to make Prusas.
Hey my Ender 3 tips if you wanna salvage them: BMG extruder and micro Swiss hotend! That fixes the main complaints and mine has been bulletproof since. (Bowden is fine)
....or just get a Prusa, yup.
Not sure if people have mentioned, but grab a BMG dual gear extruder. Damn they are good! Will solve a lot of extrusion issues! I run a farm and do a lot of experimental filament tests
In business it’s much better (and cheaper when you account for time) to use a tool that you know will work and has high reliability.
Any idea how much these will cost? I’m interested in getting one!
Great!
the print out process (for broken worn out parts ) should include automated ordering online of new parts
"Big bunch of bulk boxes!", "Big bunch of bulk boxes!", "Big bunch of bulk boxes!".
Ay good advice for sourcing high temperature range components?
Experienced a few problems with the cr10s pro v2 . Clogging, prints not sticking, gear extruder jamming on the filament and the bl touch getting stuck. It does require some time tinkering. Prusa prrinters seem to be better quality wise even though I never owned one yet. Now contemplating on a direct drive with an all metal hotend to have better prints and alss prevent the PTFE tube walls thinning at the hotend over time causing clogs. Nic Wilson’s creality fb page has some pre-compiled software for ender 3’s and other machines if you want improved functionality.
Everyone goes on and on about the Prusa, but I've had to resolder the power cable to the bed heater, reprint hotend parts because a failed print encapsulated the hot end, and had the nozzle drive itself into the bed because the Prusa at $800 doesn't have a Z limit switch. They're good machines, but they can require maintenance too.
The enders have issues too. But most of it goes away if you replace the extruder and hotend with higher quality components.
Would be grand if you could do the Build-Tutorials like Prusa does with an textual Online-Walkthrough and User-Tips.
This video has definitely made me decide not to try sell kits. Thank you for showing me how much resources it takes to do this.
well im sure its fine for most normal sized things lmao
@@lucasc5622 I'm not 100% sure what you mean by this.
@@sobertillnoon well making something this complex is a lot harder than putting together an effects pedal or something
Hi Stephen,
as a big fan of your work, how are you dealing with things as CE and FCC markings that are required in EU and USA?
Regards,
Nick
I got ahead of the ender 3 issues by quickly upgrading it. I have never had an issue with my printer...yet...
Would 100% go for a kickstarter (or similar) of these with a kickstarter you can actually see the quantity of people that want to buy it and order the correct quantity without having to try guess how much stock to buy. And you give yourself time to source and pack out a kit without worrying about delivery time as much. Are you making the kit without the 3d printed parts so buyers can print them at home or are you going for an all in one shabang with everything included?
2:58 Those plastic arms on the Enders are the worst. One of the first upgrades I did on my Ender 3 V2 was get a metal arm because I *knew* that eventually that plastic part would fail.
So, revisit of design for manufacturing based on experience?
Did you go with ELP for cameras? They look familiar, and they were happy to do semi custom (different lens on a common board) for quantity 2.
Yep, we negotiated terms with them for customization and volume purchasing
I know that cost of components and other materials has changed in the world. But do you have any idea of how much a kit would cost. I really want to buy one. But it would be helpful to have a ball park idea of what i can expect.
Not sure if you did or not, but I'd suggest you include at least a few extra nuts and washers of each size if not also including an extra bolt or two per size. It'll give you some margin of error on the hardware kits and it'll save your customer from having to dig through a rug for 3 hours to find the last nut that they need that they dropped.
I have a question. If a component is placed on a motherboard and if it moves slightly when the vacuum nozzle releases, is there any way to discover that happened using the camera? Thanks.
Funny thing about reflow soldering is the amount components snap back into place due to the surface tension of the solder. Check this video from James Sharman czcams.com/video/pOrjECig11A/video.html and you can see that tolerances are quite generous.
However your question is a good one and an interesting use for the camera.
When are you expecting these kits to go on the market?
id love to hear more about ordering parts from chinese suppliers directly with sites like alibaba
How much will the kit cost maybe a
rough estimate? And where do you plan to sell it?
$20 on wish
a monoid program or two or three could automate the replacement part ordering
I don't know if it's just where I live but you can buy two ender 3s and mod parts for less than the cost of the prusa mini :( I like the idea of having a proper 'professional' machine instead of a hobbyist 'project' machine but godamn they don't print at twice the quality so that over-twice-the-price point is so painful...
I feel like the Ender 3's etc are only useful if as a way to get people into 3D Printing / if they love fixing/messing with it (like a "project car" etc)
By the time you add up all the upgrades, failed prints/downtime, etc i feel like you are better off buying a slightly more expensive printer with all the features you want
*Granted this used to be the excuse for Closed Source, Overpriced Machines like Ultimakers etc*, but there are so many good FLOSH options like Prusa's stuff, VORON, Ratrig etc that make it a good point even for makers with budgets, or hardline Open Source advocates etc
How do you keep track of all the parts? -Frank
Did you ever program your smart watch? I require closure 😭😭😭😭
Build a Voron!
I run a bit of a print farm, doing >1000 parts per month usually. My go-to for a cheap yet reliable machine is the Artillery Sidewinder. A bit cheaper and bigger than the Prusa Mini, and I'd say about just as reliable as the genuine Prusas I've owned.
When are you going to China and do the same as Strange part ?
We’ve talked about it 😅 I miss Shenzhen
You inspire me
What does mid scale mean less than 5k? And what would be big scale? +50k..
What is an "index"?
Are you using the crappy TB6600 stepper drivers? The stepper online ones work much better and safer.
czcams.com/video/HeVc6en-ZWA/video.html
A4988
would be cool if you were incorporated and willing to sell shares for funding. I'd buy some.
Build a Voron it's well worth it to put in the effort and it would be a fun livestream. Edit: you could also do a cooperation with Thomas Sanladerer with his queue system then.
amy schlegel, rachel schlegel, matt and jared roskin say hi
Oh you said kits, not kids 😂
Lucian is a Romanian guy?
You were engineering on the fly. It always takes longer when you do that. Engineering isn't just limited to this part should be aluminum and be that long. Most of the engineers at GM don't do the cars they work on what it takes to build the cars. Assembly order, how long each step takes, what can be done in parallel etc.
Honestly ditch the Ender 3’s for print farm duty. Get more Prusa machines or other machine that won’t be a project. Also, the less Chinese suppliers you have the better.
open source hardware and "kits" usually don't work well together. Also, a 100% Ali sourcing is an absolute mistake
Все хорошо но нет перевода 🙃🙃
Use a Bimetal Heatbreak for the Ender 3 it is the best upgrade you can get because even a PTFE tube will melt after time
Build a Voron 2.4 printer and never look back ;--)
Elegoo neptune2 is a great alternate just prints
Oh man Stephen. I am so sorry that you ended up with Enders. Since beginning of 2019, the quality of Creality's printers has completely and utterly dropped. Their reputation is completely unwarranted in 2021 and they have been coasting off of that for 2 years.
If you want to take a better look at cheaper printers that work, I'd take a look at anycubic i3 mega, vyper or Artillery Genius or X1.