Thoughts on Siralim Ultimate
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- čas přidán 5. 08. 2024
- Hello again, this time we’ll be looking into Siralim Ultimate, an indie monster taming, dungeon-crawling sort of game, originally released in March of 2021. It’s the latest entry in the Siralim franchise, and the developers, Thylacine Studios, boast the game having theoretically infinite content as well as incredible depth in its gameplay.
Big thank you to Zack and the rest of the Thylacine Studios crew for making this game.
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00:00 - Intro
03:26 - New Game
06:05 - Story
10:29 - Creatures
13:02 - Creature & Battle Mechanics
20:16 - Dungeon and "Out of Combat" Mechanics
28:20 - Presentation
33:02 - Endgame
39:03 - Conclusion
49:02 - Channel Update - Hry
Claiming that there's a lack of balance when the player is handed multiple levers, such as Realm Instability, to virtually dictate the degree of pushback, is just silly and thoughtless. What is even meant by 'balance' at that point? How can you even begin to evaluate this without visiting higher realm depth? Some of the most meaningful post-game challenges don't appear until floors 270+, and the enemy levels outpace the EXP that you gain, so the higher your realm depth the more 'difficult' it becomes for your creatures to keep up.
Positing a lack of balance in a sandboxy grindfest like Siralim is just talking out of your ass, especially when you've seen less than half the content. I realize and appreciate that you took the time to qualify and caveat, but that doesn't make this position any more sensible.
(EDIT: FWIW I'm not disagreeing with the substance of your conclusions, but the framing. And I want to make that clear.)
Looking back at my script, I realize I really should have more clearly defined what I meant by "balance" in that context (which was essentially meant to be the player's power vs the power of the enemies as pushback). I'll take an L for that for sure.
I guess there is an argument to be made about whether the player 'should' be responsible for balancing their experience, but that isn't something I would argue for or against definitively.
However, surely if I'm able to tear through enemies at level 590 with my level 286 monsters at RD115, that should illustrate the kind of power the player brings, whether it's because of perks, strategies, or both. Regular enemies simply don't have that kind of power. Bosses do to some extent, but they are the minority of battles fought.
If it takes until RD270+ for the most meaningful challenges to occur as you say, and I can only unlock deeper Realm Depths one at a time, then that is still levels upon levels of potential curbstomping the opponents with a single action. Even if there is eventually a sort of equilibrium between the opponents' and the player's power, I can't imagine it is anything but highly asymmetrical.
But if I my initial conclusion about the game being unbalanced seemed like a criticism, it really wasn't. A lot of the appeal of the game, for me, came from creating these powerful strategies to easily defeat these overwhelming odds. A lack of balance, at least in many games I've enjoyed, tends to encourage player creativity. I wouldn't want Siralim Ultimate to be more balanced.
You are right though, that I haven't seen all the game has to offer, and I had hoped it was clear this was always the case, that this was not intended to be a complete evaluation. This is probably the most useful comment I've ever received in the sense of helping me improve my writing.
I can't really prove or disprove what you're saying at this time, so I'll keep this thread pinned and hopefully more people who are further along can also add to the conversation.
@@tamerhadal I appreciate your response. There have been quite a few bold experiments in game development recently that attempt to offload balancing onto players in elegant ways. I don't know if you're familiar with Hades, but it's one of the better examples.
I'm currently on Realm Depth 640-ish, and at this point I'm pretty confident that I've got the full scope of Siralim. My contention with your analysis isn't necessarily that it's a 'bad take', but more that your motivations, approach and expectations may be at cross-purposes with what the game is trying to do. If you're looking for a game that emphasizes tactical, reactive play, Siralim is going to seem extremely hands-off, because so much of Siralim's design encourages the player to build A TRPG ENGINE rather than an aesthetic team of monsters.
Players who enjoy Path of Exile will like Siralim, but players who enjoyed Monster Sanctuary probably won't so much (although there's overlap for sure). The game wants you to automate normal combats, and the boss fights become more and more gimmicky as you go along in order to push back against players attempting to universally trivialize the content. If you're judging Siralim against traditional monster tamer standards, it'll fail miserably.
So I was pleasantly surprised when you talked about chilling out once you'd managed to build an engine and find your stride, because it seems to me that you met the game partially on its terms. By the way, I think there are plenty of things wrong with Siralim, I just wouldn't list 'balance' among them personally.
It felt awkward when you spoke about how 'overpowered' the synergy you found was, specifically because it really wasn't very powerful in terms of what can be built with the engine. I've got a Bound Cerberus who literally casts Death Siphon on every enemy at the Start of Battle, instantly killing non-boss enemies and absorbing their stats. And this still doesn't trivialize ALL the content, I still have to adapt this strategy for some of the late game bosses, of course.
Anyway, no hard feelings of course and I'm glad that you didn't interpret what I was saying as me simply throwing stones. I know how hard it is to make content like this. Keep doing good things.
Subscribed because of this exchange. I’ve been playing this thing constantly and I love it. The only thing I might complain about Siralim Ultimate would be the super super suuuper late game challenges. It takes a long time to grind to “end game.” I’ve gone about 115 hours on this thing and the game has derailed my runs on XCOM2, Divinity 2, Trudograd, etc. It keeps throwing new things in my face, new creatures and abilities to exploit. The bitesize runs has that just one more realm consistency going for it.
Wow, a proper Siralim review? Now that's content!
So, about the "infinite" content this game has. I'd say that the wording is just a marketing trick, but after playing 1500+ hours I can definitely say that this game has one of the most meaningful progression systems I've seen in any loot based game.
In the end game - you don't just get bigger numbers, you get a lot of meaningful horizontal progression.
You unlock:
- Character classes
- Secret and hard to obtain creatures
- Creature cards which provide interesting passive effects
- Nether stones which are basically artifacts on steroids
- Level up your Relics
- New spells from bosses and guild shops
- Unlock anointments (perks from other classes to customize your character class!)
And much much more
Unlocking everything in this game requires a lot of dedication, but the stuff you get is unique and interesting. A true theorycrafter's heaven.
❤Exactly! A true theorycrafter's heaven.
@@cyan8964A theorycrafters heaven. Well said. ❤
Cool
I don’t blame you. This is a super huge game and it’s complex compared to other monster taming games. Great video.
The one who can analyze the balance of every single specialization and sub-strategy will the the strongest of us all
Always glad to see more attention on Ultimate, I say, for absolutely no specific reason related to my backing of it or creation of any realms or characters.
Hahaha, I'd be curious to ask which ones were your additions?
Thank you for the banshees, ariamaki!
This is a really good video with an authentic reaction. 16 minutes in, and I know I can watch the full video.
I don't really care that much about the monster taming genre, but was interested in Siralim. Watched and really liked your review, you have a very clear and objective way o explaining things, and you don't exaggerate. I will probably watch the other stuff on this channel. +1 sub, bravo!
This game is awesome. Thanks for showing it off!
Thanks for the content on this niche of gaming! I am hyped for your Monster Rancher 2 video! I loved the first one, this'll be great.
This was a very nice listen, thank you. I am really looking forward to more!
From what I've played of it, I'd describe it like jelly beans; the shape of the gameplay loop is obvious at a glance, but the flavor of how you go about playing it is so varied nobody is going to have the same experience.
Yeah, pretty much, that's not a bad analogy
I am happy to find your Chanel , I know its really dificult but you always do a great job . Thanks for the good work . I am recomending this chan everywhere and I hope you can keep doing these amazing vídeos
Kinda hilarious how right after saying nature transformation was a thorn in his side "so spell gems" when the first thing that came to mind was "there's gotta be a spell gem that blights the whole team so the healing damages, right?" I honestly hope he's about to say that exact thing otherwise the pain will begin.
I only collect physical releases so I haven't yet played Ultimate, but having played the rest of the series, Siralim 3 is a game I'd recommend over most games. Despite something I'd rate a 7/10, the game is more than the repetitive dungeons and possible broken mechanics. Early on in every single Siralim game you'll only have as many creatures that have appeared as you've progressed. The further the depth you go the more creatures you gain access to and the more team compositions you can create. Now on Siralim 1, 2, and 3, you only have a maximum of two traits excluding nether creatures which can have four and you can only have a single nether creature in a party.
As you progress, for a long time you are ALWAYS, finding something new. Whether you're unlocking the blacksmith, the merchants, the alchemist, blood rituals, charms, magic spell upgrades, runes, and you are constantly seeing new creature after new creature. Every time you see a new creature with a new trait, it's like winning at a casino game, you get that rush every time you unlock and win something new. Every creature you get you look at their trait and you're mind is always wandering to, oh sh--- I can use this with this to do this, I can do this to do this, or I can do this to do this.
Siralim 3 is the only game in the series that has tavern battles. What tavern battles is that you can take your team of creatures into battle against a group of NPCs composed of other real players teams. Now, yes, you're not playing pvp in person, however it's almost like you are as the Siralim games all have the ability to set macros and this isn't just some simplistic set of commands, these macros has the same and more depth than you'd find in Final Fantasy 12. It's not perfect, because there are actions that are impossible to command that you'd want to do and then as a human you can make decisions differently based on the moment, however, it's pretty close to anything you'd want to be capable of.
Now, you don't want to play these tavern battles until you've unlocked all or most of the creatures, as there are some incredible builds. Now, some of these builds I could make a counter build to beat them, but I feel like people who do this are just cheap and it's just not fair to do so. So what you should do, is just build the best build you can that you don't think can be countered. So not only does Siralim 3 have the end game content of fighting all of the gods, harder versions of the gods, and even Nemesis versions of all the bosses you've previously fought for around 100-200 unique traits.
My build can defeat creatures more double my level(thousands of levels in difference and I haven't hit a wall yet) and there are still some battles in the tavern battle that defeat me. At some point I'll try and refine my build a bit more, but breeding and maxing out attack for lower intelligence or intelligence for higher attack certainly was definitely the worst choice I could have made as the trait that uses the lowest of attack/int to determine both stats. I can use new monsters without bred stats, but haven't played in months so I've probably just been gaining losses with anyone with that trait, but not a big deal to me, I'm not worried about a win loss ratio(although before I stopped playing last it was around 70%.)
It's the always unlocking and being able to make a lot of builds but at some point you'll get a bit bored of the repetition. This happened to me but I went back to again and total hit 300+ hours.
Perfect review for this complex game.
I love the down to earth honesty here. It also feels like we get to know you without it being annoying.
And your intelligent approach. And added humor.
Truely the perfect review for this game. 10/10
I suggest you don't make this long reviews for the more simple games out there.
This one just needed a long review.
Anyways, thank you, I watched the whole thing with no boredom.
Happy New Year.
Ps: I'll be giving this game a try tomorrow, I'm bored to death of the 99% of games with simple mechanics. I'm too smart for that. I feel like I understand the whole game in a few hours, and I don't like that. Because it's like I solved the whole game in a day... you know?
But yeah, this game is certainly not for everyone, and I get that. Unfortunately, I realize the more complex a game is, the less amount of people will play it.
Without trying to offend annoying, I think some games are just more appealing to higher IQs. Not saying anyone couldn't play it and win. Only it gets annoyingly complex at some point. Even for me. There needs to be a balance. To be fun.
So I feel I realize the more complex a game, the less money it can make. Ultimately telling us, there will never be super successful, say AAA games, that truely are complex.
To me a very sad realization.
But some indie developer might come along and find balance, and with it success.
But I hope not alone. All these unique games are usually made by 1 person.
I hope one day we'll see, high budget teams make complex games.
I finished BG3 btw, and I think this game is a good example of my wishes coming true.
Sorry for my very long "PS:".
Again, happy new year!
Edit: I got the game like 3 days ago and finished the story (easily, with warden). It did take me 27hours, just like google mentions. But I spent at least 5hours reading and theorycrafting.
This game is a must play.
It's a blast!
This is an amazing review, very well game. Sub'd.
You just made me wanna jump back in this game THANK YOU
also, in case someone finds this video and feels like the hard counter part is a drawback to you. It is, but only until you get more experienced with the game because yes, in his case, the Shapeshifter was basically a "f you and your strategy" buuuuut, now you solve that by making sure you have access to the debuff "blight" which makes healing cause damage instead. this is essentially one of the gameplay loops of the game. you make your build, find a gap in your strategy or something you cannot deal with, then solve it with an update to your team until you find something else that you cannot solve with your build again.
Funny you mention Blight, that's actually the tactic I decided on to counter Nature Transformation
@@tamerhadal well it is the conclusion that comes with more knowledge of the game, and with progression you open up a lot more options to more easily deal with stuff like that which is more monsters, more traits available only on artifacts, the relics and very very late you also unlock the access to up to 5 perks from different specializations. game is defenitely not for everyone due to reasons you went into great detail but it is a dream for peoiple who like to theorycraft insane combos
I've had this one on my wishlist for a while. Just have never quite taken the plunge. I'm usually a story guy so I'm dubious, but the creature crafting aspect is definitely my jam.
Best Siralim Ultimate review on youtube. :)
I'm surprised you didn't notice that specializations and their perks don't work in arena. If they did, being on equal leveling and lacking equipment, you'd decimate your enemies every time. Also, this is subjective, but from all the specializations I played, I always found witch doctor to be one of the weakest and lamest ones.
One more thing is, as a Christian I disagree that everything (specifically luck) would become dull eventually since I don't believe Heaven would be like that. Also, I don't think that at all bears fruit in reality. I know people who have several thousand hours of gameplay in one roguelike game who still have strong reactions when either something very lucky or unlucky happens. I see no reason for human nature to change just given more time. Perceived views of reality including luck factors would remain similar in a potentially infinite amount of time, I would postulate.
Lastly, not sure how well you keep up with news of this game, but it seems it will most likely be receiving more content including several quality-of-life updates. We'll see how the game changes if that ends up happening. I liked the video, subscribed. :)
Thank god actual siralim ultimate CZcams content 😭
I'd love to see you take a look at Monster Sanctuary. It's fairly similar to Siralim but with significantly more effort put towards quality presentation and story.
They are very different games lol.
Monster sanctuary is almost completely different in all ways other than being turn based but it is a good game
16:29 that was funny as hell
A channel dedicated to monster tamers AND they mention the existence of spectrobes in the first video I see?
Only way it could have been better was if you hadn't decided against it.
I'll definitely cover it at some point, had it on my mind a lot lately! Perhaps after the next one.
The best way i can describe this game is if Disgaea has a baby with Pokemon.
Its a great game if you're seeking this sort of thing, this is the 4th or so game in this series!
Siralim Ultimate is basically, "For every thing you try, there is a counter. Then there is a counter to that counter that might be countered by something else."
Your issue with Nature Transformation is solved very simply (blight debuff). You didn't get far enough into the game to figure out solutions to the issues you ran into. This is the entire point of the slow progression. Your builds early on will suck, and you won't figure out the solutions immediately. The game slowly develops to not overwhelm the player.
Also... lol... the comments about "hundreds of levels higher" is so funny.
Enemies will be millions of levels higher than you eventually. My team is around level 90K and enemies are roughly level 30 million.
There is a reason the community calls the story the "tutorial" of the game. The game doesn't really begin until around depth 100. The stuff you're talking about is the very beginning of the game's opening up of build potential (which is the real endgame). You're not in "endgame" until around depth 500 or so. By that time you should hopefully be able to work with a build that can complete realm intensity 5 consistently. Then you can make major efficiency boosts to your build once you unlock false gods and start snagging anointments.
so if I write a post here it may push the algorithm and maybe Siralim gets out to more people? let us try that :D game is awesome despite the slow start and steep learnign curve (at least when you want to experience the game with its "intended" difficulty) but the sheer customization and impressive amoutn of variety when it comes to finding solutions for the problems you face makes it great for people ho like to theorycraft
(also yes, I am, as of now, around 400 hours in the game with some time on and off the game and I am just about to unlock the final game mechanic, all off which provide smaller increments of possible adjustments to your builds but still always provide more stuff to allow you to solve problems the game throws at you the way you like)
Best team building game in the biz.
You literally can't go wrong unless yah don't care enough
just got passed 10% achievements after over 100hrs, great game 10/10.
Kids... Game starts after depth 415. I think u unlock guilds then. Annyway game is hudge! Remember to collect cards. They give buffs and debuffs + some cards (like asura ) are hard to collect full set cause there are events for this particular one...
Annyway if someone think that game is easy can always turn on dificulty (in options) from 1 to 9. Game is solid 8+ - 9 but you have to love grind, and i mean GRINDddddd ;)
Ofc. some things could be better buc i can tell you one thing. There is no other game like siralim. Pokemones + grind + crafting + loot + Infiniti depths = siralim.
Its one of this games with i want to have when zombie apokalipse start and i will be Alone in my anti zombie vault lol.
The best kind of game strategy game, my bullshit vs opponent bullshit
Hearing DemoD in a video about Siralim, strange reality.
For me, the balance killed this game, however I had a lot of fun with it.
I assume before watching that your experience with the game was negative based on other comments. I just want to say thats fine i totally get it because the main story is mediocre at best
But this game has one of if not the single most rewarding post game(s) of any RPG I've ever played, roughly 25 years and hundreds if not thousands of games later. Seriously if you can get past the first 100 floors of the game, it really opens up and gets good
35:49 there it is that's why you feel lukewarm on the game. The REAL post game of Siralim Ultimate imho is unlocking the Gate of the Gods, and fighting each of the 30 realm gods with a team locked at level 100 while they're locked at 1500
Doing so gives you an achievement for "ascending" your specialization and unlocks special character outfits. Once I complete all 30 with all 40 specializations I imagine I'll be done with the game
Good video, I'm glad to hear your opinion on the game isn't as negative as I originally thought from reading comments and I hope you continue to play until you reach the Gate of the Gods, then make another video
Such a great game, I think you should have ascended at least one class and beat at least one fallen god before fully reviewing it, but its also unfair to expect you to play such a long game.
Nice video. You should make one about starbound and it’s flaws
Unfortunately the complexity/variety and the horrible info system of this game kill each other.