Thank you so much. This is really what I listen to Chapo for - Matt going off on some history shit. I need him to start writing books, I love how he explains history from a materialist perspective
Chapo, you did an awesome job and touched on the subject of community which is why people join the church in the first place. I was 21 when I joined and one of the attractions is the community. I resigned from the from the church in 2013. I left the church when the church built a massive shopping mall right across the street from the Salt Lake temple. Actually, it's befitting due to the nature of the corporate church in which money is extremely important. Chapo got it right in how the churches doctrine of what was called "The United Order", actually a communist structure and how later the embrace of capitalism which fly's in the face of their written word, but hey it's gods will right? Great job! as Tim & Eric Awesome Show would put it.
@@BigBlack81 I try to put them in there as soon as AM uploads them, I try to sort them chronologically but some cover huge time ranges. I don’t think I missed any, but if anyone else has any others post them.
Why is this video only an hour old? I swear to God, I saw this video listed on my feed before I went to bed last night and woke up just to watch it. Wtf
I just went there for a church event, I am what is known as a “PIMO” (physically in, mentally out), No one knows I no longer believe in the church except for a few select people who are outside of it, and I still participate in the many, MANY activities created by the church, mostly to avoid suspicion and also because its pretty hard to just up-and-leave. Anyways, I went to nauvoo for about 3 days with many, many other mormons and we were toured through all the historical sites, watched several shows (Literally, they had full on performances at the visitors center.) put on by performing missionaries, and it was quite the experience. Everything is told and presented in an unquestioned and cultish way. Of course, no one really asks questions because theyre all drinking the same kool aid, but as someone who had actually read the literature and even some pretty surface level stuff, it was unbearably inaccurate and swept a billion things under the rug, dedicated to making joseph smith out to be this biblical prophet only outshined by jesus himself. I was both surprised and not surprised at all that I heard zero opposing viewpoints, and once I brought up a brigham young quote to a friend in a conversation to prove that, in reality, he was an incredibly racist man, and I got maybe one of the nastiest death stares from a white mormon mom somehow listening to us from almost 20 feet away.
I love comments that basically say "this analysis isn't very good and I disagree with it" but refuse to detail any counterpoints whatsoever. At least flesh out your critique some.
As a bit of a precursor, can someone broadly bridge the gap between Calvin and Luther? I got the idea that they came to roughly the same conclusions, regarding the relationship between capital and church/community (?)
VERY high-level synopsis: Luther is a guy whose chief concern is how hopelessly corrupt and far from god the Catholic Church has become. he wants to get rid of the corrupt old traditions and rebuild a more modern catholicism. the creation of protestantism is something he views as a kind of confusing accident. the Catholic Church was hideously corrupt, but part of that hideous corruption was that priests got a LOT of mileage out of the 'it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven' line. priests were not hitting up peasants for indulgences. they were hitting up the nobility and burgeoning middle class, saying 'if you don't give us a bunch of your money you're going to hell.' by getting rid of indulgences, Luther accidentally got rid of the sole economic incentive in Christianity to not suck up to the richest people around all the time, and Calvin took that incentive to its logical conclusion. Calvin is a devout follower of the faith Luther accidentally built trying to figure out how you can tell that God is going to save you from Hell, now that indulgences aren't a thing, who comes to the conclusion "well if you do well in life that proves God loves you and you're going to heaven." the rich deserve to be rich, the poor deserve to be poor, to become rich and comfortable is to become in god's favor, to become poor is to prove god dislikes you. unsurprisingly, rich people fucking LOVED this shit.
I USED to like listening to Matt ramble, but I think people that do are scratching a dangerous itch of using a single cursory source to compensate for their own ignorance. Just do your own research if you're so inclined to learn: whatever you find here will take twice as long to get there with half as much to take away from. Read his book recommendations too. Voltaire's Bastards was a solid pick from Matt
But that's the start, and that's why we love Matt's ramble. I know I've taken DAYS to go through one of his screeds because I'm constantly new tabbing to research points he brings up. And then you know how THAT goes... LOL XD To me, Matt is a platform to a bigger set of things to ask questions about that I had no clue at all about. That's the value of the Kush Bombs: they open lines of inquiry for those who care to new tab enough.
@@hegaliandialectics4289 I don't blame you. I don't like reading much either but eventually I know you'll find a book that clicks with you topically or from how easily you can read through it. I've been there, like I said I think it's compensation for the lack of literacy but we've all been there so good luck on your journey.
I wonder if the choice of settling the West was so insane that is required to new type of religion to facilitate it? The saner religious people would have just been satisfied with a small plot of land in Ohio or Illinois, and would not have had the absurd mixture of faith and ambition to keep going west for the bug payout.
If you wanna get a sense of early American Folk Magic, the Seventh Son series by Orson Scott Card is pretty good… I don’t condone the views of the author, but frankly that doesn’t keep me from enjoying his writing.
I think there is a conflicting overlap. It often can be both. These religious organizations did provide community but were also theological authorities; and both elements varied by degrees depending on time and place. But the point still stands about the lack of community. That is the good part of a mixed bag. Ideally, we move forward in time, progressing, and don't go back to these centuries-old religious models of community. However, we need to push out and away from capitalism, and form a secular community under socialism (people can still have their religions but no religion will be the basis of the communal society).
So does Matt seriously believe that the theology of mormonism (everyone is saved, people can become gods) is capable of curing the alienation caused by capitalism, and induce a spirit of collectivism in people?
I’m sorry, but this analysis is pretty thin. It sounds like something that has been thought through, but it’s mostly just opinions framed as matters of fact. It does make sense from the Marxist perspective, which holds that competition and capitalism generally are intrinsically immoral. Even is that’s a given, there’s still no evidence given that the move towards capitalism is the reason for waning societal and moral bonds. He presents this as fact, but that’s just like your opinion man. It’s an interesting idea, but far from being an agreed upon fact.
So, what are the objective truths and knowable facts of history used to describe societal changes? Or maybe, just maybe every idea on it is an opinion. Some more sensible and well-informed, but an opinion all the same.
Six minutes in and I don't understand what this guy is saying. At all. Unsure who his audience is (or who he thinks it is), but I doubt they understand it, either. Peace out.
How sad for you. Must have low attention span and low comprehension skills. Six minutes in I was completely enthralled. I could have listened to 6 more hours of this episode.
Protestantism as the social logic of capitalism kind of falls apart once you consider countries outside the USA. Which is to say that Matt might sound smart, but his depth is as shallow as his purported expertise is wide.
@@ince55ant That's what a lot of people are missing in Matt's breakdown: he's not talking about it being good, only what made it predominate things in so many sectors. In truth, Matt's talked about other slants of Christianity before.
Thank you so much. This is really what I listen to Chapo for - Matt going off on some history shit. I need him to start writing books, I love how he explains history from a materialist perspective
💯
Let's see Paul Allen's Marxist analysis of Mormonism.
The tasteful thickness.
Oh my God - it even has a land acknowledgment @@phillheth
As a former Mormon who's entire family has escaped from the cult, I'm excited to listen to this
I’m so jealous lol I’m a former
Mormon who’s entire family is still Mormon
@@drewchainz4577 same here :/
I just hate the word Mormon phonetically
@@drewchainz4577 how are you doing? could u tell me more what is the mormonism about these days in ur opinion? or anybody?
@@KP-gc7fd modern Mormonism is just land speculation and buying up real estate, all paid for with tithing from active members lol
Accurate, fair, materialist. Former Mormon (with rest of family still practicing Mormons) gives 👍 👍
Acid Marxist and Matt Christman literally carrying my life right now with these uploads
Matt Christman talking about protestantism is my absolute favorite. I wish he spoke about this more.
30 Years’ War podcast coming soon.
Yea this is so much more fascinating than their endless whining about twitter and Elon lately
I grew up as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, 25:00 is probably the most accurate unbiased assessment of the group that I’ve heard.
"eyyyyyyyyyy, I'm the angel Maroni here, fugitaboutid Joseph"
Tossing a gold plate into the air and spinning it like a pizza, "Ya can't make-a da gold plate inna Cumorah: dey ain't got the wautuh!"
I would go to war and die for Lord Christman
Matt “The Christ Man” Christman
@@mojoforthewin3069 🙏🙏🙏
My sword for the Christ man
Chapo, you did an awesome job and touched on the subject of community which is why people join the church in the first place. I was 21 when I joined and one of the attractions is the community. I resigned from the from the church in 2013. I left the church when the church built a massive shopping mall right across the street from the Salt Lake temple. Actually, it's befitting due to the nature of the corporate church in which money is extremely important.
Chapo got it right in how the churches doctrine of what was called "The United Order", actually a communist structure and how later the embrace of capitalism which fly's in the face of their written word, but hey it's gods will right? Great job! as Tim & Eric Awesome Show would put it.
funny how this church went from wanting to be a commune to now having over $100B in assets 😂
This was so good. It always is with Christman.
Sounds like my conception of Mormonism as something like manifest destiny/American exceptionalism as a religion is not incorrect.
I could listen to these endlessly.
I made a playlist of them.
@@ItsOgrethanks Doc!
@@DickiMoltisanti SECOND! So nice to FINALLY have something I can put on shuffle and get lost in when I'm doing chores/hobbies/etc.
@Herman T. Elwich You a champion, fine CZcamsr. Thank you. 🙏🏿
@@BigBlack81 I try to put them in there as soon as AM uploads them, I try to sort them chronologically but some cover huge time ranges. I don’t think I missed any, but if anyone else has any others post them.
Why is this video only an hour old? I swear to God, I saw this video listed on my feed before I went to bed last night and woke up just to watch it. Wtf
Youre still asleep, wake up
I live about 100 miles from Nauvoo, I've never been and since listening to this I need to get out there and check it out.
I just went there for a church event, I am what is known as a “PIMO” (physically in, mentally out), No one knows I no longer believe in the church except for a few select people who are outside of it, and I still participate in the many, MANY activities created by the church, mostly to avoid suspicion and also because its pretty hard to just up-and-leave.
Anyways, I went to nauvoo for about 3 days with many, many other mormons and we were toured through all the historical sites, watched several shows (Literally, they had full on performances at the visitors center.) put on by performing missionaries, and it was quite the experience.
Everything is told and presented in an unquestioned and cultish way. Of course, no one really asks questions because theyre all drinking the same kool aid, but as someone who had actually read the literature and even some pretty surface level stuff, it was unbearably inaccurate and swept a billion things under the rug, dedicated to making joseph smith out to be this biblical prophet only outshined by jesus himself. I was both surprised and not surprised at all that I heard zero opposing viewpoints, and once I brought up a brigham young quote to a friend in a conversation to prove that, in reality, he was an incredibly racist man, and I got maybe one of the nastiest death stares from a white mormon mom somehow listening to us from almost 20 feet away.
Matt is great historian. Mashallah
So good. Reminds me of “Hell on Wheels,” especially around the 35-36 minute mark…
czcams.com/video/nsj-CdpbJCw/video.html
Joseph Sr.’s wife’s name was Lucy, not Lily. Just fyi. The rest of it is spot-on.
This one is going to be a real banger I can tell
Blessings for posting this
Maybe the real community were the Mormons we made along the way...
"Maroney" 😭
Honey whats wrong you've barely touched your maroney and cheese
It’s spelled “marogna”
I love comments that basically say "this analysis isn't very good and I disagree with it" but refuse to detail any counterpoints whatsoever. At least flesh out your critique some.
As a bit of a precursor, can someone broadly bridge the gap between Calvin and Luther?
I got the idea that they came to roughly the same conclusions, regarding the relationship between capital and church/community (?)
He talks about the differences between the conclusions reached by Luther and Calvin during his most recent Kush blog if I remember correctly
VERY high-level synopsis: Luther is a guy whose chief concern is how hopelessly corrupt and far from god the Catholic Church has become. he wants to get rid of the corrupt old traditions and rebuild a more modern catholicism. the creation of protestantism is something he views as a kind of confusing accident.
the Catholic Church was hideously corrupt, but part of that hideous corruption was that priests got a LOT of mileage out of the 'it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven' line. priests were not hitting up peasants for indulgences. they were hitting up the nobility and burgeoning middle class, saying 'if you don't give us a bunch of your money you're going to hell.' by getting rid of indulgences, Luther accidentally got rid of the sole economic incentive in Christianity to not suck up to the richest people around all the time, and Calvin took that incentive to its logical conclusion.
Calvin is a devout follower of the faith Luther accidentally built trying to figure out how you can tell that God is going to save you from Hell, now that indulgences aren't a thing, who comes to the conclusion "well if you do well in life that proves God loves you and you're going to heaven." the rich deserve to be rich, the poor deserve to be poor, to become rich and comfortable is to become in god's favor, to become poor is to prove god dislikes you. unsurprisingly, rich people fucking LOVED this shit.
@@xalrath yep, he says as much in about as many words.
@@josejaimes-ramos1546 thanks! I was looking back through the most recent couple, as I was pretty sure it was covered. But I came up short
@@xalrath perfect, dude. Makes wayyy too much sense, and I appreciate you taking the time
I USED to like listening to Matt ramble, but I think people that do are scratching a dangerous itch of using a single cursory source to compensate for their own ignorance. Just do your own research if you're so inclined to learn: whatever you find here will take twice as long to get there with half as much to take away from.
Read his book recommendations too. Voltaire's Bastards was a solid pick from Matt
But that's the start, and that's why we love Matt's ramble. I know I've taken DAYS to go through one of his screeds because I'm constantly new tabbing to research points he brings up. And then you know how THAT goes... LOL XD
To me, Matt is a platform to a bigger set of things to ask questions about that I had no clue at all about. That's the value of the Kush Bombs: they open lines of inquiry for those who care to new tab enough.
nah i need background noise while i’m gaming
i’m to fucking stupid and lazy to read actual theory. I will one day but for now listening to Matt is as close as I can get.
@@hegaliandialectics4289 I don't blame you. I don't like reading much either but eventually I know you'll find a book that clicks with you topically or from how easily you can read through it. I've been there, like I said I think it's compensation for the lack of literacy but we've all been there so good luck on your journey.
i agree, its just a more epic and based consumer identity for me at this point
I wish I could have listened to this instead of going to Mormon church last year we out now tho
Adam smith + Joseph smith + chad smith = my ideology
I wonder if the choice of settling the West was so insane that is required to new type of religion to facilitate it? The saner religious people would have just been satisfied with a small plot of land in Ohio or Illinois, and would not have had the absurd mixture of faith and ambition to keep going west for the bug payout.
Also love it when Matt conflates rationalism with absolutism, rather than Calvin with not understanding relative morality
If you wanna get a sense of early American Folk Magic, the Seventh Son series by Orson Scott Card is pretty good… I don’t condone the views of the author, but frankly that doesn’t keep me from enjoying his writing.
We almost had a Mormon president in 2012. Some day we will have our theocracy!
We already are a theocracy of the capitalist faith
What is this from? Is there a non-youtube way to listen to this?
iirc first episode of the inebriated past, chapo series by matt and chris
Moroni called Smith a corksoaker
Can’t spell Moroni without moron….
I love it when Matt conflates theological authoritarianism with community
True, a lot of people in this sphere are bizarrely biased towards being very "generous" in how they describe religion
reddit take
I think there is a conflicting overlap. It often can be both. These religious organizations did provide community but were also theological authorities; and both elements varied by degrees depending on time and place.
But the point still stands about the lack of community. That is the good part of a mixed bag.
Ideally, we move forward in time, progressing, and don't go back to these centuries-old religious models of community. However, we need to push out and away from capitalism, and form a secular community under socialism (people can still have their religions but no religion will be the basis of the communal society).
5:44
It’s weird being and adult convert to mormonism and a leftist, but I thoroughly enjoyed this, as always with Matt
That sounds very gay!
How do you square that circle if you don't mind my asking?
@@gonzoengineering4894 loadsa bitches
Why convert to a religion? What could convince you of such a thing actually being true?
@@IdiotDoomSpiral69He got to stick his face into the magic golden hat of prophecy.
dum dum dum dum dum
So does Matt seriously believe that the theology of mormonism (everyone is saved, people can become gods) is capable of curing the alienation caused by capitalism, and induce a spirit of collectivism in people?
No, I think his point is it comes closer than deracinated American Protestantism and would take longer to be desacralized in the same way.
I’m sorry, but this analysis is pretty thin. It sounds like something that has been thought through, but it’s mostly just opinions framed as matters of fact. It does make sense from the Marxist perspective, which holds that competition and capitalism generally are intrinsically immoral. Even is that’s a given, there’s still no evidence given that the move towards capitalism is the reason for waning societal and moral bonds. He presents this as fact, but that’s just like your opinion man. It’s an interesting idea, but far from being an agreed upon fact.
So, what are the objective truths and knowable facts of history used to describe societal changes?
Or maybe, just maybe every idea on it is an opinion. Some more sensible and well-informed, but an opinion all the same.
Six minutes in and I don't understand what this guy is saying. At all. Unsure who his audience is (or who he thinks it is), but I doubt they understand it, either. Peace out.
How sad for you. Must have low attention span and low comprehension skills. Six minutes in I was completely enthralled. I could have listened to 6 more hours of this episode.
Protestantism as the social logic of capitalism kind of falls apart once you consider countries outside the USA. Which is to say that Matt might sound smart, but his depth is as shallow as his purported expertise is wide.
works pretty well for England, Germany, and the Netherlands, though, which gets you a long way
do you think every country on earth just decided capitalism was the best system or were international coercive forces pushing them into it?
r/iamverysmart comment
@@ince55ant That's what a lot of people are missing in Matt's breakdown: he's not talking about it being good, only what made it predominate things in so many sectors. In truth, Matt's talked about other slants of Christianity before.
my friend.. the actual argument he makes is capitalism is the social logic of protestantism.
what is mans bithering on about. you gotta be high as a kite to sit through this
Hell yeah dude
Me when I bither
found the guy wearing magic underwear
you know i am
wow this is literally me