Thomas Joseph White #15: Does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and the Son? (I, 28)
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Thomistic Institute. Angelicum. Aquinas 101
I listened twice, and I think I get it. Thanks.
It is the distinction between essence and existence. One Divine essence in three Divine Persons.
wow such a great channel thank you youtube!
"And I will ask the Father, and HE will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever." Jesus said that the FATHER will send the Holy Spirit, not Him
"When did the one who is begotten and the one who proceeds from the Father come into being? They are above and beyond the notion of a “when”. Indeed, if I may speak somewhat more boldly - they came into being when the Father did. And when did the Father come into being? There never was a time when the Father did not exist. And the same thing is true of the Son and the Holy Spirit. Ask me again: “When was the Son begotten?” And again I will answer you: When the Father was unbegotten. -
“And when did the Holy Spirit proceed?” When the Son was, not proceeding, but begotten beyond the sphere of time and in a manner which cannot be expressed - although we cannot avoid the imagery of time when we wish to express what is above time."
Saint Gregory Nazianzus
Oration 29 / from section 3
Hello,
You know, EO say that in the economy, the Son is born from the Father through the spirit, because he’s conceived by the spirit.
Which objection can we formulate to that?
That teaching is compatible with Aquinas' teaching. The Incarnation is worked by the Three Persons (as are all works outside the Trinity), but we can appropriate an aspect of this common agency to one of the divine Persons on account of a likeness or affinity between the aspect and the Person. For instance, we appropriate origin to the Father ("from"), we appropriate grace to the Holy Spirit (Mary's conception of Jesus involves a special grace: the Grace of Union).
How can a Catholic respond to the objection that the Son sending the Spirit isn't the same as the Spirit proceeding from the Son? One can send after having received what he sends, without being himself the origin of the objet he sends.
Aquinas teaches that a divine mission or sending is the very eternal procession of the proceeding divine Person with an added temporal effect, either visible or invisible. The divine mission does not imply anything new or any change in the divine Person: change only occurs in the created order. Thus, any Person that is the origin of another in the Trinity sends that sent Person. The Father is not sent, not because He does not visit us, but because He has no origin; the Son is sent only by the Father because He alone is his origin (Scripture never speaks of a sending of the eternal Son by the Holy Spirit); the Holy Spirit is sent by the Father and the Son because they are his origin.
@@icxcnika2037 This is a weird topic since afaik the Fathers and many latins after them were initially speaking of the temporal procession and it later morphed into eternal procession.
@@iAquinas Thank you. A different but related question: How wouldn't the Orthodox differentiation between being begotten and proceeding be enough to distinguish the two Persons?
Even when I read St Thomas Aquinas, I don't see why this is mpt empugh. Aquinas says there is no way to distinguish them without the Filioque that defines the relation between Son and Spirit.
It could be only a matter of words, as we Catholics say, and as the pope explained showing the subtle difference between the latin and the greek words used to express the origin of the Persons. Still, one can see that two verbs are used: for the Son, begotten, and for the Spirit, proceeding. That seems enough, at first glance, doesn't it? Why distinguish further? The Filioque still holds.
"And I will ask the Father, and HE will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever-the Spirit of truth." Jesus says the FATHER sends the Holy Spitit, not Himself
@@ashley_brown6106 We Catholics don't deny that Father is the source of both Son and Spirit. That being said, in your example we see a kind of mediation of the Son. Therefore, to a Catholic, right or wrong, this is not convincing to show that the procession is from the Father only.
Woah.
Our Lord Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. It may be true to say this, but it sounds odd in practice. Could we perhaps avoid the Filioque at Christmas time by saying the Apostles' Creed instead?
Most of the contributors here have managed to stick to the argumentum ad rem, which is a bit unusual with this type of discussion.
Fr. Thomas, is the Father the principle cause of the Spirit and the Son is the instrumental cause of the Spirit? Since there is one principle and one spiration?
There is no causality among the divine Persons. There is no efficient, final, formal or material causality. Withing the Trinity, there is no principal or instrumental efficient causality, no first or second cause, no essendi or fiendi cause. All causality is found outside the Trinity and the three Persons cause as one. The Father and the Son are one, unique, principle of the Holy Spirit: they spirate the Holy Spirit as one sole principle; they communicate or give the divine being or nature to the Holy Spirit. The Son receives from the Father the fact that He is able to give the divine being or nature to the Holy Spirit, when the Son is generated by the Father. This order among the Persons does not involve subordination or dependence: that is why there is no causality among them.
iAquinas thank you for taking the time to respond. This is a very useful explanation. God bless
In what sense is “cause” being used in this question and answer? The Council of Florence’s reunion bull Laetentur Caeli states that by “per Filium” in certain Fathers the Son is signified as “causam” (“aitian” in the official Greek translation), according to the preferred Greek terminology, of the subsistence (Greek “hyparxeos”) of the Holy Spirit so I was under the impression that a certain understanding of “causality” within the Trinity was acceptable. (I quote from the 1953 Pontificium Institutum Orientalium Studiorum edition of Laetentur Caeli)
Atomic Lead Greetings, when I speak of cause I do not speak of causing to be temporally, for the Most Holy Trinity is eternal. Rather, by saying cause I mean hypostatic origin. I mean cause the same way the saints do in their writings:
“While we confess the invariable character of the nature, we do not deny the difference in respect of cause, and that which is caused, by which alone we apprehend that one Person is distinguished from another;-by our belief, that is, that one is the Cause, and another is of the Cause; and again in that which is of the Cause we recognize another distinction. For one is directly from the first Cause, and another by that which is directly from the first Cause; so that the attribute of being Only-begotten abides without doubt in the Son, and the interposition of the Son, while it guards His attribute of being Only-begotten, does not shut out the Spirit from His relation by way of nature to the Father." Gregory of Nyssa,To Ablabius-There are not three gods(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,V:336
"Through the Word, the Father produces the Spirit, who manifests him(dia logou proboleus ekphantorikou Pneumatos). ...The Holy Spirit is the power of the Father making secrets of the deity known and proceeding from the Father through the Son in a way that he knows, but which is not begetting.... The Father is source of the Son and the Holy Spirit....The Spirit is not the Son of the Father, he is the Spirit of the Father, as proceeding from him(ekporeuomenon),...but he is also Spirit of the Son, not as (proceeding) from him, but proceeding through him from the Father. Only the Father is cause(aitios)." John of Damascus,Orthodox Faith,I:12(A.D. 712),in HS,III:39
(Here is where my first question came to be, it seemed John sees Father as principle cause and Son as instrumental)
“they(the Romans) have produced the unanimous evidence of the Latin Fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the study he made of the gospel of St. John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause(aitian) of the Spirit--they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by ekporeusis(procession)--but that they have manifested the procession through him (to dia autou proienai) and have thus shown the unity and identity of the essence.... Maximus the Confessor,To Marinus(A.D. 655),in HS,III:52-53
PG 91, 136
Joseph Gill. The Council of Florence 212-3
[[note: Maximus says elsewhere: "[T]he Holy Spirit, as He is by nature and in the way of essence [the Spirit] of God the Father, so is He also the Son's by nature and in the way of essence, since He proceeds from the Father essentially and ineffably through the Son, who is begotten." Maximus the Confessor, Quaestiones ad Thalassium, 63]]
So my using of causality was to speak of hypostatic origin. My question boils down to, does the Spirit recieve his being or origin from the father through the son.
Viva Cristo Rey Thank you very much for your informative response. I was very much thinking along similar lines as you in asking my own question, as there indeed seems to be testimony to speaking of “causality” within the Trinity, and I in fact had in mind Maximus’s letter that you quoted. We might also think of Gregory of Nazianzus’s Oration 34 saying all that the Father has is the Son’s except causality. It was because of these things that I was very perplexed by the notion that we cannot speak of causality in the Trinity (the fact that Maximus’s letter and Damascene’s De Fide Orthodoxa that you quoted are seemingly in opposition to the Council of Florence that I quoted would be another concern).
Wouldn’t this make the Spirit the witness to the love of the Father and Son as opposed to the actual literal act of love?
The Spirit is the fruit of the love of the Father and the Son, just as the Son is the fruit of the knowledge of the Father. Similarly, the Father knows in the Word (Son), and the Father and the Son love in the Holy Spirit. Also, bear in mind that there are three senses of the Love in the Trinity: Essential Love (all three Persons love with this same act of love), Notional Love (the Father and the Son spirate the Holy Spirit), Personal Love (the Person of the Holy Spirit).
@@iAquinas ill think over this. Thank you for the explanation.
Is The Holy Spirit, the same as Ruach Hakodesh?
The short answer is yes. Ruach in Hebrew can mean 'breath' or "wind" which is descriptive of the English word 'Spirit.' The Hebrew word 'kodesh' means set apart or holy in English. So putting it all together: Ruach (Spirit) Ha(the) kodesh (holy, set apart) means the set apart or holy spirit.
Hope this helps!
Shalom,
Alan
@@inyahwehwetrust777Do you know Hebrew well? How do you spell “Holy Spirit” on the Hebrew cause I’m kinda curious of the numerical value of it. YHWH is 10 5 6 5. I’m just kinda curious what it is
Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life and through him all things were made.God the father is Jehovah which was the name of God The father in the old testament and I believe the holy spirit is God in the future and I think he's being God of the past future and now but I'm really only guessing just some things don't make sense to me at times but I do believe in the holy Trinity of the 1 true God begotten from the one true God.I know it possible makes little Sense but God Almighty makes all the fog disappear as soon as you truly believe in.
Huh?
according to the bible John (15-26) : But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
So the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father
and this is my faith as an Orthodox ☦
@@Gabisamaan Not an Orthodoxy but I agree with their theology on the Triune God. Is there any verse to your knowledge that shows the Spirit also proceeds from Christ? God bless you☦️
@@sathsojourns thanks. God bless you too ☦️✝️🤍
@@sathsojourns i don't think so if there is a verse show that the holy spirit also proceeds from the son ( Jesus Christ)
@@Gabisamaan Thank you for your help anyway🙏🏽 I’m a non denom Christian and plan to stay that way unless the Holy Spirit tells me otherwise but Orthodoxy seems like the Original Church and houses the greatest theology on the trinity (with the hypostasise of God etc). Could you explain how iconography isn’t idolatry and how it’s not against Exodus 20:4-5 specifically? I’ve seen Orthodoxy’s kiss and bow down to idols as Catholics also do unfortunately but other than the skepticism and my personal fear of Tradition > God’s Word (like the Pharisees acted) I agree with their theology most as it doesn’t contradict the Bible. Thank you, God bless you in Jesus mighty name
That was a clear BLUNDER of the churchfathers, they failed to figure out that THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE FATHER TOO.
From Jesus' statements you are definitely sure that ONLY THE FATHER is with the Son. Thus, of course only TWO blasphemies can exist: either 1. against the Son or 2. against the Father. Accordingly, Jesus discussed those TWO blasphemies, but in the second one the Father was surprisingly addressed by using the name "Holy Spirit". Why? Because Jesus tells us that the FATHER IS A SPIRIT (Jn. 4: 23,24). Thus "Holy Spirit" is just a "spirit-name" given by Jesus to that Spirit who is the Father. Jesus also directly confirms that the HOLY SPIRIT inside Him IS THE FATHER: “The words I say to you, I say not on my own but from the FATHER who DWELLS IN ME.
The Father is thus called either "Holy Father" or "Holy Spirit by Jesus.
Why is God a spirit?
Even the churchfathers noticed something weird but very important: God does NOT PERSONALLY take actions here on earth, rather everything is carried out by his Spirit: the Holy Spirit. Thus, some churchfathers thought He was a person and called Him the "HELPER". Wrong. It is true that God doesn't personally take actions, but his Spirit is not a "Helper": He is the SAME ALMIGHTY GOD IN THE FORM OF A SPIRIT, see above. The reason is that God is not personally here, HE IS AWAY "before the foundation of the world, (Jn. 17, 24-26)" (only the Son who is older than the world could see Him). But even when absent, God is able to be here in the form of a spirit - this means that NOBODY is actually here - to talk to people and to take actions. He is the "Spirit of God" (the Holy Spirit).
God is thus "split" into TWO PARTS: the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Father is personally MISSING, this is why Jesus says "Nobody has seen God at any time" "the world has not known you". "INVISIBILITY" has nothing to do with that: you cannot see the Father (God) because He is not here! The Holy Spirit is here, but since NOBODY is actually here, everything must be DECIDED BY THE MISSING GOD. No third divine person exists.
Where did you get this theology?
@@hildegardnessie8438
From gospels and logic.
John 15:26 provides the answer to the question asked in the title of this video. The answer is NO.
do you mean YES? "whom I will send to you from the father" - surely if both son and father send then he proceeds from both.
@@fergiexavier The question is, "Does the Holy Spirit PROCEED from the Father AND the Son"? The answer is clearly in the verse cited; "the Spirit of Truth PROCEEDS from the Father." Not the Father AND the Son. Jesus sending the Holy Spirit is very different than the "procession" of the Holy Spirit. The Son is eternally begotten of the Father. The Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father. May you enjoy researching the Orthodox Catholic position on this.
@@MikesBibleNotes if christ is the logos, if he is the wisdom of god, then surely the holy spirit proceeds from him as well? or do you think the spirit proceeds from the father without wisdom? "the father and i are one." to discount christ's involvement is to downplay the unitive love between Father and Son.
Rev. 22:1 provides the answer to the question asked in the title of this video. The answer is YES.
Note that John 15:26 doesn't deny that He proceeds from the Son. It's fallacious thinking to say that if something is not stated, it's denied. Also, you didn't engage with any of the content of this video dealing with the relationship of the economic and eternal order and why the Holy Spirit must proceed from the Son in order for the Son and Holy Spirit to be distinct Persons.
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