One Size Doesn't Fit All | Discussing Tank and Balancing the Role
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- čas přidán 4. 06. 2024
- A discussion of the state of tank balancing and how there needs to be a shift away from general changes to more personalized ones
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#ow #overwatch #tank
The big issue with the current tank role is the following:
In OW2 the tank doesn't have one role.
You want the tank to be the frontline, to make space and take hits, but you also want some tanks to dive, flank, and exploit their mobility and option to deal damage from an off-angle.
In OW1 you could do that with 2 tanks, but currently, some tanks are in a weird space.
One tank alone is often not tanky enough to stand the ground without massive team support, and depending on what the other players pick, you can't even play the tank that the match requires or the team would need.
What tank would you pick if you have a Tracer, a Widow, a Kiriko, and an Ana and the mission is to get on the point and contest it?
They could increase wrecking Ball's grapple build up speed for burst movement while increasing the cooldown for grapple slightly for balance to reduce cc against ball
But then that would change balls swing mechanic alot tbh
I agree on your doom vs cass analogy. As a ball one trick there are several moments when someone swaps sombra vs me but i can still find value against that hero
Sombra alone is playable but sombra with brig or brig with hog or dva with sombra or brig with dva or reaper and sombra becomes nearly unplayable if you dont play perfectly. Big emphasis on brig because with her around, balls ability to pick or deal really any lasting damage is cut basically in half.
Doesn't help that ball ult is the worse tank ult in the game as its incredibly easy to walk out of, honeslty I'd debate its worse than orisa ult with how easy it is to escape. I cant wait for this next upcoming patch it actually seems to be helping his ult and damage output two pretrt big problems with ball.
@@hooparainbowbraceypkmonand7862 Reaper sucks ass he does nothing against ball . Sombra alone woud also he fine its in 99% of cases supports that make it impossibel for hammond to do anything . You can just go brig and ana perma deny any dives sleep him bash and dead . New brig bursts you down even harder
They should do a qp hacked to either bring back 6v6 to give it a go or make a new que where you pick your role in the match however can only have 2 of any so it could be like 2 tanks 2 damage 1 support granted this could require some balancing but they've made open que atleast abit balanced with Role Que by giving them differences
i find it its way harder to balance tank in ow2 compared to Moba like league/dota 2 because almost all heroes in moba limited by range but because ow2 is shooter and fall of range you can do dmg even at 40m+ range on dps heroes so at this point only viable solution is either buff tanks mechanic to take dmg or add way more cover on the map so it looks like blizzard chose easy rout of buffing stats, and problem with giving more reasons for enemy team not shoot the tank always is why would not do it? the value you get must be so massive to convince players not to get easy value from shooting the tank that i don't see how they can implement it reworking roles so at least for now fix of buffing tank mechanics so players shoot them less is fine even if its not ideal. i would prefer tanks to be low-below average dmg but they can exist in fights for a long time without supports help but zoomer brain ow2 players find it not fun for some reason, at this point i don't even believe ow2 roles even make sense as concept, most heroes are multi roles hybrids (most tanks are dps/tank combo, most supports are dps/supports combo with healing/strong utility and without much of downsides, only dps role mostly make sense), is moba there is supports that focus mostly on keeping teammates alive or do dmg but guess what, they utility/survivability/dmg usually very limited you can't have everything on 8/10 scale.
as example Roadhog rework i make in a post: pig pen removed, reduce his weapon left click spread/buff ammo amount/lower dmg by a lot (turn right click into scrap field, he use all ammo to create aoe zone where enemy take dmg by walking on aoe), hook: is 50 dmg, 12 sec cd but on hero hits reduce cd by 4 sec and he gain 40% dmg reduction to body and 10% for Headshots for 3 sec, slow enemy for 1 sec after hook ends for 30%, Take a Breather: cd 12 sec, heal for 100 hp/sec for 5 sec, during heal CC/debuff effects last on him 30% shorter, can be used on yourself after CC to cleanse CC/debuffs but heal only 100 hp, on ult we change push with enemy slow, lower dmg and add stacking bleed mechanic (more shots enemy take the more they bleed) guess what ow2 players find it boring when they can't delete a hero with 2/max 3 buttons
I strongly agree with giving tanks more passive knockback resistance actually and I think you sorta trapped yourself into OW1 thinking a bit slightly there (something you bring up later in the video). If knockback effects are, at least partially, intended to curb tank presence/mitigate their power and people largely aim them at the tank then they necessarily must be reduced in a single tank environment. In OW1 it was less of an issue because if the Rein gets knocked back you may very well still have to contend with a Zarya. If you deny the Winston dive you'll still have a D. Va in your backline alongside her DPS.
This design forced your team to coordinate in a split-second manner to split your CC between two tank targets. I just don't think it's justifiable in OW2 where chaining CC to a tank can now deny an entire role's impact briefly and a single player has to bear the brunt of all of that. Like, it sucks on an objective and subjective level.
The headshot thing is stupid though. They should've just gave tanks more HP if extending their lifespan is the goal. You shouldn't be punished for landing skillful shots but I get they also don't want to punish casual players pumping lead into Rein's chest cavity. Just increase the health and the players landing headshots will burn through it faster, retaining that reward.
the reworks make me question the future of this game i mean how long did it took them to make ball pull himself like cmon we get 5 reworks a jear and you give cass a magnetic granade hog a mine and ball more movement completely ignoring the actual issue phara is ok sombra is a 50/50. but then they release mauga into the game that just holds all his buttons down while pointing towards the tank. Do they even think?
The 5v5 format along with the role passives are most likely the reason why OW2 has such a problem balancing tanks. These blanket changes disproportionately buff every tank and it doesn't change the core gameplay loop of the role. You can keep buffing tank all you want but the gameplay loop is going to be the same and at the same time you'll be sacrificing the gameplay experience of every other role.
Makeing tanka even more stat monster doesnt stop counterswaping it makes it workse becouse the counter tank is also stronger now and you as a tank still have 0 ways to play around counters at all yoz just life longer doing 0 against the same things . There is no fix for tanks in 5v5 there just isnt even the armore chang doesnt chang anything
if tank has low damage they don't have power to create space, if they don't have huge dmg mitigation then they blow up and feel useless, if they have both then it feels like they are impossible to deal with unless most of the team doesn't focus them with all their abilities. In OW1 the issue with tanks were shield stacking, because they couldn't balance any shield combo, but the tanks themselves were much more able to cover each other yet were more able to be punished due to not being a literal meat wall. Two tanks made counter picking harder to do, while keeping each one in a more killable alone, insentivising teamwork more than now.
6v6 is the better gamemode, they just need to find the people who can break through their creative block to balance having two shield tanks at the same time. Too bad they won't go back to 6v6, I feel like they should at least run it as a quick play mode. Even if they did though, tanks are just so over tuned in the worst ways to make 6v6 in the current balance an absurdity.
Thats the thing tho, most shields werent even that exploitable. Like winstons and such didnt really cause a double shield problem. it was more shields like what sigma and orisa have that caused issues Id argue. Rein rarely fit into these kinds of comps because fundimentally his gameplan isnt to poke out damage as a melee character and his shield doesnt respawn like orisa's nor did he have other mitigation tools outside of it so he had to rely on the other tank's shields to allow him time to recharge which itself meant he kinda put a lot more resource pressure on the sigma or orisa if they were trying a bunker style comp. Not to say it NEVER worked such as with some pirate ship style comps but often he really didnt slot well into that style of play. Sigma and orisa both have multiple damage mitigation tools and large amounts of poke damage so they were both able to kind of bunker up and let their supports basically enable them and keep them alive long enough to keep the poke cycle going to get their own resources back.
I feel like you're asking for justice, calling the changes unfair..... in general the changes dont solve the problem, if anything they make it less painful, because you still explode.
I think the real change should make tanks initiators. How doom can jump and move someone toward the team. Most tanks have some ability to move ppl, lets focus on that.
"Makimg other roles more enticing to shoot"....the only way to do that is to make other roles more impactful. So tank looses impact on game...... thats so much worse.
Armor change does nothing at all to help tanks deal with counterswap. Reaper is not even that good against winston you can easily avoid him by playing around his los, hell even this video you are playing in the background both teams are playing winston into reaper. But what really counters winston is brig, and she still will, probably even harder now that her armor is better against low damage stuff like zap gun. Same for brig against ball, sombra against ball, ana against mauga/roadhog, kiriko against junkerqueen or reinhardt shatter, etc. The headshot and armor changes just dont do literally anything to address the counter swap issue. I don't like the head shot changes either these just seem like mass power creep changes to me without any real thought or intention, won't solve counter swapping either it will just make whatever flavour of the month tank everyone is forced to play even more overpowered and impossible to kill.
Not to put anything against since I completely agree with most of the points, but wintons gun ignores armor, so he will be unaffected by the armor change
@@dog6769 Forgot about that change thanks for the reminder
Great video, excellent points with a fairly good understanding of the game and what you want from it that said im still going to have to give you a dislike. What you want is not only antithetical to the genre i also believe it should be eradicated from gaming. The type of game you want and overwatch shifted to is a cancer. Literally, what you idiots want is a fighting game where you dont have to take all the blame for yourself.
As for tank in overwatch 2, the clear problem is that of an identity problem. Something that you get at and talk about to an extent, but you dont really get at meat and potatoes of the issue. The problem isn't the tank. it's that the job of a tank is pretty much gone. Who/why are you creating space for and who are you defending. In overwatch 1, it was mostly each other but also some other people sometimes. In overwatch 2, it literally just doesn't make sense. You aren't tanking an ana sleep so others can get in on her. You are her target for the sleep because when you die, the whole team falls apart. This isn't a pro 6v6 argument, just an acknowledgment of how the game works. There are easy fixes for this in 5v5. You can make more junker queens, i.e., self-sufficient characters who are beefier hybrids or you can go the complete opposite centralize the roles supports will do much less damage and be focused on supporting and dps will stop having crazy utility or even generic tank abilities.
There is a 3rd option, which i like much more, which is create things other than tanks to shoot at and do, i.e., objectives that you either need to shoot at or take. That would give the tank its job back as the person who is designed to defend things or use CC for peeling or stopping people from doing things. Unfortunately, that would turn off a large portion of the playerbase and would require devs to actually want to make a better game.
I HATE YOUR 5v5 TAKE
peace and love other than that
This comment is completely meaningless