Iroquoian wooden armour. Pt 2. Overview.
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- čas přidán 27. 06. 2024
- In which I showcase my recreation from a practical standpoint. Talking about mobility, the construction methods, and various ideas about the armor's function, and historical context.
If you have any questions, leave them in the comments section, I'll do my best to answer.
To see the previous video in which I go over the historical background, see the link below.
• Iroquoian wooden armou...
To see a playlist of destructive tests, see the link below.
• Armor tests.
Great video man. I wish native american and non-metal armor was a more common subject of discussion in the experimental archeology community. You deserve way more views. Keep up the good work.
Cheers. I agree, it's frustrating how there's almost no one talking about this stuff. Main reason I'm making these videos is so that folks with the same interests aren't left to start from square one, like I had to do.
Actual academic doing research in a semi-related field here. Seconding this so much. I work on African (and to a lesser extent Native American) military history and nobody has done any experiments with any of the gear; they just look at, say, African hide armours and shields and assume that they're automatically inferior to European gear. Granted, it's hard to test the efficacy of a rhino hide shield without, say, poaching yourself a rhino, but no one has even asked. I've spent the last few weeks emailing back and forth with biologists while I try to get a feel for how some of the equipment would have worked.
@@KartarNighthawk you'd think people would be more interested in the unfamiliar aspects of history... Nothing wrong with European or Asian historical interest, but I think it's unfortunate that people display little curiosity towards the non-European history of Africa and America 😞
Seriously though, I only read about wooden armor in the context of pre Bronze Age tech.
@@KartarNighthawk for the weapons it was meant to protect against it worked. even the neolithic europeans used wood or bone armor at one point in time
This is an incredible reconstruction. It think it's very plausible that your suitcase-style method of transporting it is historically accurate. European sources say nothing about this but it seems like a massive benefit of this construction style. Either way, this video is a credit to the field of experimental archaeology. I'm sure warriors of old would have been proud to wear armour similar to this
Cheers. I’m quite happy with it.
I guess as I understand it all armies have the tradition of making soldier travel in armor for a multitude of reasons mostly that if you have transport like a pack animal you can bring more stuff like food and water if you train your soldiers to carry their armor and other effects but I suppose they could carry the armor like a suitcase it would be risky though as you’re leaving your army exposed in transit but maybe the mobility would make up for it
@@nothanks9503 AIUI the easiest way of transporting armor is often to wear it. It's made to fit your body well, vs. a big lump in your hands or on your back.
So maybe the suitcase method could have been an ideal manner of storage. This would have been great especially while in movement with the tribe in a non hostile situation.
@@BiblicallyAccurateToaster having a storehouse where you could rapidly distribute armor to dozens of warriors would be an incredible boon
The speed with which the helmet, breastplate, and backplate can be put on would be a serious plus to this kind of armour. If your settlement is hit in a surprise raid you can have most of your armour on and be out the door in a minute or less. Only the shin guards really took you any time, and they're the piece that could most easily be left off in an emergency anyway.
Yeah, I agree.
@@MalcolmPL I realise it is some time since this video was posted but I'm evidence it continues to gather viewers. You comment about the difficulty in tying on the shin guards when you cannot see the knot. Why not lengthen the thongs used to tie them on? Just wrap them around the ankle and calf and tie them in front of the shin.
Also, people could help each other.
Running. I forgot to mention running. I shot the footage, then forgot to talk about it. Stupid.
The weight of the armor is not a problem. The apron doesn't prevent you from running, but it does get in the way a little. Not a problem, but I would be a little faster without it.
Stupid.
The tone with which you narrate this video, along with the way you frame and light it, lends it a slight "Wes Anderson" vibe. What a delight!
I have never paid much attention to pre-European North American warfare, but this video has gotten me very interested. I have a feeling that I will binge most of your videos this week.
In fairness, there isn’t much information on it in the general sphere. I’m trying my best to make the history more accessible.
The people of Vancouver Island had some cool armor. They were like First Nation Vikings using their boats to raid.
@@terryt2728 Are those people the Tlingit or related to Tlingit? They had some great wooden helmets that made them look like a wandering totem pole. Just as the Chinook art style, this culture had incredible aesthetics.
@@valentinmitterbauer4196 I'm not sure sorry. I saw a documentary here on CZcams about them. I'm awful about remembering names.
@@valentinmitterbauer4196 Probably Tlingit or Haida, both wore armor and the helmets. The Haida also used spears for war, which as this video mentions, wasn't common. Here's a good video on them: czcams.com/video/M_PlDkvh_-g/video.html
The backplate is fascinating, it seems to act like a hybrid between armor and shield... It's quieter than I imagined too!
Siberian armor is very similar- I guess they shot a lot with bows in combat, and would dodge by turning around.
It looks a lot like Micronesian armour.
The way it moves with the wearer's body to compliment fighting movements and stances is fascinating, especially given its size.
I never knew armor existed like this in North America. It's always really interesting to see weaponry that developed outside of Eurasia. Different arms races and resource limitations end up leading to some surprising inventions. If I had been shown this armor out of context, I would have never been able to guess where it was from. It's completely different from what I'm familiar with. History is always full of things you never expected to see.
I would have thought it was costume from The Nutcracker. Or maybe someone playing a turnip in their school play. But by the end I thought it was so cool I kind of wanted some myself. Impressive ingenuity, I would love to see how it held up against the weapons of the time.
@@dishonoredundead unfortunately much of that is by design
Awesome project. Really illuminating. The point about spears apparently being rare on Native American battlefields is interesting. The main advantage of spears over a lot of other weapons is that they give more reach. This was the main reason why they were the most common weapon for many European armies for thousands of years. A bow gives even better reach than a spear. Historically most societies have not had large professional armies, so when wars happened they've had to draw on the skills that already exist within the population when training and equipping troops. In Europe people got most of their meat from domestic animals, but In North America there were fewer of these, so more people were hunters and there would have been lots more skilled archers. It would make more sense for them to make bows their primary weapons in war, and carrying a club or a tomahawk as a back-up would have been a lot easier than trying to carry a spear as well.
In Europe, archery was a fairly rare skill for much of recorded history and archers sometimes became highly sought-after and well-paid mercenaries. They loved to use bows when they could, but there were rarely enough people who could use them well. England famously had very feared longbowmen during the Hundred Years War that were able to defeat the French against the numerical odds on several occasions. But the kingdom was only able to field them by effectively forcing the entire male population to regularly practice archery. Pre-contact Native American armies would have had much less trouble finding warriors who could shoot, so it would make sense for their armies to have more bows than spears. They could easily carry clubs and tomahawks on their persons and switch to them if they ran low on arrows or if the fighting went to close quarters, so those would be the other weapons frequently used. Just some thoughts.
I know this obviously doesn't apply to all native North American peoples, with such diverse traditions, but perhaps 'honour war' practices like 'counting coup' may have an additional part to play, with spears removing the ability to engage in touch-range combat? It does seem, however, that the heavy use of war clubs is a very good reason for having armour like this.
Sophisticated, versatile, practical, natural, and iconic all at the same time.
Dude amazing job! Greetings from Mexico, where I'm working on a reconstruction of an Aztec armour!
Is it that cotton sort with the salt water?
@@MalcolmPL Precisely the one, with feathered covering suit and the macuahuitl. I'm an archaeologist down south and an illustrator, It's why I'd hoped you'd have other social, your amazing work needs to be shared and publisized!
@@Rafael_Mena_Ill Cheers. Let me know when you get your recreation done. I'd love to see what those look like in the real world.
@@MalcolmPL Will do! The Mesoamerican reenactment scene is beggining to grow down here in México and seems to be booming in the Andes. Was extremely exciting to see a pre-gun era Iroquois armour up north as well. You're a pioneer and hope you develop the piece further.
Out of curiosity, how much would you sell a full set of armour for, btw?
As a person who has participated in using and training in the best armor the world has made from Europe I am fascinated by this. This is just amazing and will tell you wood cannot be underestimated. Very good, thank you for sharing this.
7:30 My guess is that they might have used the same techniques for European and Asian archers. They typically had quivers on their belts, not on their backs as depicted in movies. It also wasn't uncommon to hold arrows in the same hand as the bow itself. It could vary based on preference and the available resources to to the particular archer.
To all potential commenters. There are several parts to this video project. Some of the questions are answered there.
I love how descriptive you are in your narration-
I came to your channel as an illustrator looking for references on weapon making, but I’m staying for your quality videos. This is all so fascinating, and so well produced!!
Also I really appreciate getting to see what it’s like putting on and taking off the armor- if I were to need to draw a character getting dressed in armor, stuff like that is an invaluable reference!! And your thoughts on where you could store the quiver or how well you can draw the string is such great insight for people to know what it’s really like down to every detail!! I love it!!
The little details are why I make these videos. Things people might not think of without first hand experience. That’s what I find compelling.
This was a really great reconstruction, my jaw actually dropped seeing the versatility you discovered in both packing, ways the shoulder plate could be used, mobility, etcetera. This reconstruction was incredibly well made, kudos to the work you put in!
Good stuff. It's reminiscent of the olden days of CZcams videos. Makes me nostalgic kinda.
Your voice is so calming,I hope all of your videos are done in this manner. When you speak it reminds me of the old (1960s-1970s) educational and archaeology videos. Thanks for the tears.
The back plate is interesting, like a flexible pavise. Should work great as a heat deflector as well, the whole kit should have some great utility as a sleeping roll when you make camp for the night. With minimal modifications you could also make it possible for a group of soldiers tie their armor together into a makeshift shelter, kind of like those tarps soldier had during ww2 that could be joined together into a larger tent.
Everything about this from the subject matter, to methodogy, to background music, to overall tone feels like the Iroquois compliment to a Townsends video, and I mean that as the highest possible praise. Thank you for sharing this!
this goes so hard (no pun intended). the look of the armor is really aesthetically appealing, imo--i love the color scheme and textures
Kind Sir, this IS riveting. I'm imagining fellow warriors helping you and one another ready for battle.
Great video as always. It's great to have an armour recreation such as this to provide unique insights.
I am fascinated by the back plate. Very similar to the wing plates used by Arctic, Siberian, and Pacific Northwest peoples.
It could be that archery was a primary weapon of armoured and experienced warriors, used before closing in to close quarter's combat, to support younger warriors who'd might be the first into combat.
Edit: Just watched your previous video. It's seems I was at least partly correct. Damn those muskets.
Hey, thanks for watching.
With regards to the backplate, something I wanted to point out in my video, (which slipped my mind,) was the coverage of the backplate, from behind the only portion of the body that can be hit are the meaty portions of the legs, the portions with no surface bones to break. A club armed man who managed to sneak behind a battle line would be unable to do anything worse than bruise the legs.
It's interesting to speculate about how armor like this would have affected battle tactics and such. I might have to make another video at some point.
@@MalcolmPL A club strike on the side of the knee could be devastating still. I remember seeing that kind of strike (done from the front in that case) in some Lua demonstration videos.
That was 14 minutes and 19 seconds well spent of my life! Such great experimental archaeology. It's really interesting how well it performed versus even more advanced weapon types which demonstrate that ancients were just as capable and ingenious aka the brain was just the same as now, they didn't need newer technologies, but solved less with more. Absolutely riveting stuff indeed!
I belong to the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) and this is something I think our group would like to explore. Thank you so much for doing this video!
I appreciate that you went over how long it took to put on; that's an important part of any suit of armor!
I absolutely love these Iroquois videos as I grew up in their area. I watch current Siberian Nomads who live in chums. It’s an awesome view of how Native Americans likely lived. Thanks for the videos
Amazing work sir! In a way it reminds my of the hoop style bronze armor worn by champions in the early bronze age. Large pieces giving broad protection.
Yeah, Some commenters compare it to the dendra panoply. I don't know if I agree, but it's a reasonable comparison.
I have heard that some european archers would stick their arrows in the dirt/snow in front of them rather than using a quiver. This keeps them in easy reach if you're firing from a stationary position, especially in formation. If the armor prevents using a quiver and these archers were forming lines rather than running around, that might have been how they did it.
Great video. It's so cool seeing your process!
You'd have use for a quiver for carrying the arrows between battles and then prep them on the ground in front of you when you set up for fighting. Some quivers could easily fit inside the armor roll here though for ease of carriage, or as a flat sort of bag rolled around the outside of the roll. You could also likely design a quiver that could work that way but also be worn across the back with arrows drawn from it directly when you are _not_ wearing the backplate or other armor pieces that would interfere, perhaps when you need to be better prepared to shoot and scoot and can forego immediate armor protection for mobility.
This is awesome, I remember learning about this in grade school and feeling some amount of pride at the resourcefulness. need to see this tested.
Awesome job dude, i hope some university or musseum see what You have done and decide to work with you.
One can dream.
@@MalcolmPL Curator of some museum here :D My American Indian-themed exhibition is almost over, but I'd love to cooperate in the future. I have another exhibition that involves medieval medicine coming next month. PM me if you are interested.
I was reading about how the Eastern tribes dropped the use of their wooden armor with the introduction of trade guns. Another thing that got referenced was that the way the tribes fought changed from open fields to more of the guerilla style that we are accustomed to reading about. I was wondering what that armor may have looked like so I really appreciate your presentation.
This is a subject I've always wondered about. I have also seen images of armor from the Pacific Northwest, but nothing from the rest of North America. I always thought other peoples would have used bone armor having never considered that most weapons would have stone heads. Wood would be lighter and materials easier to source. Excellent video and thanks for sharing your discovery process.
Yeah, I thought bone would be more common too, but after trying to make some, I found that most animals don't have suitable bones.
@@MalcolmPL what about Bison bones? Do you know if they would be suitable for armor?
I don’t have experience with them.
On a cow the only suitable bones are the long bones of the leg, these need to be split and ground flat, which due to the curvature is a lot of work for relatively little material.
A buffalo skeleton is obviously different from a cow, but without experience I can’t speculate.
@@MalcolmPL Bone can be a little on the brittle side as well, prone to shattering once it's dry enough. You also have to consider field repairs. Wood is easy to source and repair on the move. Bone is not. It's one of the reasons mail and lamellar armour were so popular for so long.
@@MalcolmPL Plus, it's less dangerous to fell a tree than a moose or equivalent animal
Where has this channel been my whole life? This is fascinating. Subscribed and I think I know how I'm going to spend my Sunday
CZcams suddenly showed me these videos and I'm glad it did. Also, this armor is incredibly quiet, you ran through the snow so quietly that it could be the wind, so that's another crucial strength to the style that isn't immediately obvious.
I'm not really sure why I started watching this....or why I watched the entire thing .. but good work. I hope you win all your battles and continue teaching us
The design seems extremely well thought out. You can't sit straight up when knocked down but when you roll over all your vital areas are protected from blows as you rise.
This whole series on armor has been just great to watch. I've really enjoyed it. Thanks for all the hard work you put into it.
No problem.
@@MalcolmPL it's nice to see you respond to comments, your programs are fantastic. Not related ,but what is your theory of the first natives in america? I have heard Indians have been here for( ever) , some say they just came out of a hole in the ground ,zs in the desert area, some say they battled giants when they got here , as in the California area Indians. So what's the truth 8n your opinion? I have never heard of any actual time . I find it hard to believe the forever part .
The evidence for the bering crossing is sound. Last time I checked there was good evidence for a date of thirty thousand years ago.
I subscribe to a multiple migrations theory, people crossing over every now and again for thousands of years. Some through the bering land bridge, others by canoe through the Aleutians.
Most People who say “forever” are just using poetic language. The ice sheets only receded from the Great Lakes about fifteen thousand years ago, so we couldn’t have lived here before that. But as recent archaeology at red hill Valley shows, people moved in almost as soon as possible and have been here almost as long as plants and animals.
@@MalcolmPL thank you for your response it makes more sense to me. I am ashamed I don't know more about my heritage, I am 25% Oneidan, nye was my family name, but there are two more names , maybe family, and clan? Names?hopefully you might know. It's sad getting older and forgetting thank you again for your time,love your channel
@@gwenwheeler1248 Oneida clans are bear, wolf and turtle.
0:18 - helmet has wood held together by leather on the inside n out. Helmet is sown with sinew.
0:46 - shin guards made with oak splints sown together with jude. (1:15 - for ankle bone). (1:19 - shin guards can b tied with bow.
1:30 - breast plate - wood woven with cords. Historically cords made with milkweed or sinew. Need lots of cords.
2:15 - breast plate n apron (2:21) - both flexible.
2:42 - back plate made same wy as back plate (2:57) - back plates r separate plates attached with leathers.
7:05 - can run ok in armor except in really windy dys.
7:25 - not hard to shoot an arrow.
7:54 - kneeling n shootin arrow, skirt slighty gets in wy.
8:26 - stringing n unstringing a bow? Can b done.
8:37 - climbing? Only a littl hard.
8:51 - u can't use legs very well when climbin due 2 apron.
9:00 - full armor is a little over 17 lb.
12:59 - found armor very good against stone pts. Antler pts., breast n back plate close to 100% proof. Helmet n shin guards can b peneteprated if arrow strikes dead center. Against cuts almost 100% proof. Even against steel weapons like the modern felling ax. Blunt force, all armor protects well. Steel spear goes through if it's slender enough, durable enough n has enough mass 2 go through.
Really wonderful speaking voice and narration. On top of all the science, art and history presented of course. Archival quality.
This is science!! Excellent content. I promise the only thing between you and making a full living on CZcams is volume of content. Keep it up sir.
Actually something much more interesting: experimental archeology!
Had no idea native Americans used armor in any significant way. This is awesome, we need more of this. 👍💯
Oh hell yes! A good quality Native American arms and armour channel LETS GOOO
10:32 using the wings of the backplate to cover your side and just peek out over it reminds me so much of the famous Philly Shell defense in boxing! The Mayweathers are notorious for this style. In both Philly SHELL and Iroquois Back Shield (which reminds me of a turtle SHELL), you stand perpendicular to your opponent, tuck your lead eye behind your lead shoulder, and when you need to cover up more, you shrug your shoulder up to protect the face, instead allowing your shoulder/ backplate wing to tank the blow. Meanwhile your rear hand is cocked and ready to fire forward, which in this case would probably be holding a club. So cool to see these parallels.
you did an amazing job on the armor. I can imagine rows of warriors decked out in it.
Something else I just remembered. There is a book called Zadayi Red by Caleb Fox, which is an old Cherokee story & it brings up some sort of wooden plates warriors used to wear that had different colors on each side. The reasoning was that it was reversible & whichever color was presented as the warriors returned advertised whether they had won the battle or lost.
That sounds like it's referring to armor. I'll have to look into that.
Shiyo, Cousin. This is fantastic. It really reminds me of Bronze Age armor I have seen from Anatolia, the Northern Caucasus and the other Iranian speaking regions.
That was a fantastic video!
My first impressions of the armour are that you'd benifit from having the top section of the apron tied behind your back. Possibly even made easier by adding the wings at the waist that you mentioned, which I agree with totally.
Over all, I found it to be brilliant. Good job dude!
Great work and tremendous respect for the effort here. Love it and have watched all your videos! Big fan. I assume the yellow hue in your buckskins is a result of modern factory tanning processes. I used to wear yellow hides like that too- and I've seen you using braintan in other videos, which means you are more capable than I am- but I still wanted to share a tip.
I found that you can soak the yellow hides in RIT brand dye remover (I think I mixed about 2 powder packets in the small pink boxes with about a gallon and a half to two gallons) and warm it for a while on the stovetop (horrible smell, vent the kitchen...), and the yellow begins to leech out. It takes a few baths in the dye remover, and you can keep the pot cleaner by wringing the hides out directly into the sink so the dye doesn't concentrate in the solution. Eventually, you'll hit that nice muted gray color that looks almost identical to braintan. Just a thought. Hope you are well and look forward to more videos in the future.
Thanks, I'll give that a try, the yellow is annoying, particularly how bright it looks through a camera, and all my previous attempts at muting the color have thus far been ineffectual.
@@MalcolmPL Might make things a little stinky though. That dye remover has a strong smell to it. In one instance a dark brown hide retained it's color. Maybe try on a small patch first, I wouldn't want to be the cause of ruining your outfit. It looks great and I love the channel.
But of course. Cheers.
Wow, this is something I didn't expect. Fantastic! You combine historical resources with a very fair analysis of practicality, with artifacts that you yourself made. AND, it's a great video! Well filmed, good music added appropriately, good narrative. Relaxing. Big 👍!
What a pleasure to watch, everything about it, great job and subbed.
Well I'm subscribing. Thank you for putting in this effort, it's really fascinating.
Fascinating, thank you for sharing 🤩…. also loved the “Oy Vey Man” at 4:32 😂
Such a beautiful recreation!
Yeah, now that you mention it I don't think the Chickasaw tribe used spears much either. When the Chickasaw made first contact with the Europeans we were a very different tribe than we were later in the 1800s. Our tattoo style, hair, and dress had almost an ancient Polynesian feel to it. We spanked the Spaniards so bad in our first dust up that they gave us a wide birth for the next hundred years or so. By then it was the US Gov't that totally destroyed us. So we might have used spears in the 1500s, but I don't think we did. It's funny Hollywood westerns always show feathered spears stabbing in cabin doors and prairie schooners but I never really see them in any tribes history and I never even noticed. Great video. I'll have to learn more about my own tribes kit and how they fought.
now just imagine your version, but with thousands of years of human innovation, and thats what you are trying to recreate. awesome work
Awesome Video! Thank you for doing these test. ♥
Dude this is siiick. Great presentation and info. It's funny, you never know what kind of stuff will interest you until you run into it.
Pure ASMR. Awesome videos and a voice like butter
Sure.
So interesting.. I can't figure out a good question I'd love to have seen this back in the day.
Excellent! I live in an area the Susquehannock's lived. Growing up I heard stories about their wooden armor but thought the tales were just imagination. My family bought/traded directly with Penn who directly bought/traded for the land that my family homesteaded along the Susquehanna river in central Pennsylvania. I believe it is possible that the skirt had overlapping vertical strips that provided more flexibility for running, sitting, if I remember correctly what I heard way back in the 1970s.
Great presentation! The back shield makes a more sense than I was guessing.
Absolutely amazing and very well made! I’m with you 100% on storage/movement with the armor and amazing how quickly you can take it on and off. The level of mobility you have in this was a lot more than I had previously imagined. Thank you for making this!
Someone had to do it, it might as well be me.
@@MalcolmPL glad you did and please keep it coming!
Never seen anything about this topic before, very cool man.
splendid work!
Extremely interesting and important information and experimental archeology. Very glad I came across this channel, you do great work. Keep it up
Love your work. I really like the topics you cover.
Thanks so much, nothing beats seeing something actually being worn and tested.
Very cool! Thank you for the upload!
Outstanding work!!!
Very cool. Not many have the initiative to do what you did. Great job. Excellent presentation.
Absolutely fantastic.
I learned a lot from this. Great quality video!
10 year old me thinking about the "lost boys" in battle mode armor from the 90's movie "HOOK" 😏👍
This is a great video. All natural. Thanks for sharing
Fascinating -- well done....
That was cool man! Never knew indigenous people even had armor!
Thank you so much for documenting this
This is fascinating! I had no idea it would repel bone and stone so well. And it just looks so cool!
That was a very interesting video. Thank you.
subscribed - this is great. thank you for all the hard work and excellent presentation.
Just want to say; great content! Thank you for your research and for sharing it.
Amazing work!
Great video and armour recreation, nice to see you exploring your heritage and keeping traditions alive.
In terms of the spear dilemma, I hear it referred to as a lance quite often. I also think lances were common when warriors were on a horse more then on foot.
Horses and metal arrived with the Europeans. No doubt there was native copper and gold amongst the Iroquois but it was too scarce or valuable for spear points IMO. Steel or iron for points became available when traders brought it in or it was taken from the Europeans.
@@pixelpatter01 Gold and pure copper are too soft. AFAIK North American didn't have any bronze and further south didn't really use bronze for tools.
This is really interesting. Not at all how I pictured Iroquois warriors would look like. I had a Hollywood stereotype in my head
fascinating topic. Excellent methodology of discovery. Great work!
It's the best I can do with the resources available.
Awesome video!👍
Very cool I had wanted to know about things like this for a long time
That looks pretty badass.
This was very fascinating to watch. I'd always associated wooden armor with the Tlingit on the other coast, but not the eastern tribes. Wonderfully informative video!
I learned a lot. Thank you.
Dude super cool. Thank you
Very similar to early siberian armors. Fantastic job youve done bud.
I found the part where you were donning the armor interesting. Don't put yourself down. The video is great.
Love this content
I know that i'm late to the party. but this was an amazing illustration, great video!
Whoa just saw this is on my feed. Instant subscribe !
Peace and Lots of Love from Mumbai India ❤️💯👌✨
Great job 👏
Great video n great way to experiment 🧪🥼👍
Great video!