The Book Club: Divine Comedy by Dante with Catherine Illingworth | The Book Club
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- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
- A man who has nothing left to lose is led through hell, purgatory, and heaven in this incomparable masterpiece. Dante scholar Catherine Illingworth joins Michael Knowles to discuss his favorite work of art ever composed: Dante’s Divine Comedy.
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wow! I've never even heard of Catherine Illingworth! what an absolutely enchanting lovely intelligent woman
My exact thoughts. Where has she been hiding?
@@FlashinthePan82 In the Purgatorio of academia?
I, too, am simping.
She’s married :/
She’s on Instagram
I am italian and i Was almost crying Just listening to you describing the Comedy. In Italy it is required to read 20 cantos in every high school, and rightly so.
You are so lucky that this was required reading. All great literature has been discarded in many American schools. All in the name of taking down the Patriarchy.
The Divine Comedy is one the best books ever written. Not only can it be enjoyed by Christians but also non Christians. It's a great use of Theology and personally exploration.
For a modern day take on this walk through HELL. I have to recommend Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle's (RIP) "Inferno" & the Sequel "Escape from Hell" which tell the story of SF writer Allen Carpentier's journey through hell led by none other than Benito Mussolini . I have always been a fan of these 2 but this is among their best.
I completely agree. Absolutely love how this book combines theology philosophy and history all in beautiful prose! Definitely in my top 10 of all time.
As Dante might tell you, stop looking for "personal exploration" and instead explore the Love that moves the Universe.
Dante saw Islam as a heretical interpretation of Christianity that aggravated East-West antagonisms. A sword-bearing devil slashes open the Prophet’s wound whenever it heals itself. Cut from top to the bottom of his body, with most internal organs hanging out.
Thus the dividers of humanity are themselves divided
Dante's inferno
I attended a religious Jewish college and we also studied "The Divine Comedy" in our Medieval Literature course. I understood its impact in Western Civilization and the themes of punishment, retribution, and salvation.
They need to bring her as a regular. She is great!
She did such a great job on the Canterbury Tales
@@arturogonzalez6232 Where is that at?
@@healthymealthy775 it’s also in the playlist with Michael Knowles
10/10 great video.
My only critique is they didn't talk about Virgil enough. Virgil really engages with the audience and helps flesh out the stories for the audience.
I very much enjoyed this edition of the Book Club, and Catherine is a delightful guest. I hope you have her on again.
Dante, Petrarca, Monteverdi, Palestrina, Gesualdo, Michelangelo, da Vinci.... italian Renaissance was/is just the best art of this planet!
Bravo.
❤️
This woman is fantastic. I could listen to her for hours. You too mk:)
I'm Italian and we study and learn by heart Dante's Divine Commedy.
It's sheer bliss to see people appreciating this masterpiece.
And the icing on the cake was Catherine. So intelligent and enchanting. Thank you!
Thank you for inviting me. So appreciative that fine art can still move hearts in this callous era.
This comment section gives me hope, it really does. You're all marvellous human beings.
I would actually pay to hear Michael Knowles read all 14,000 lines for us in Italian
I literally was just thinking of this book today; I've never read it but want to; thank you Mr. Knowles
@Andro mache What was the place or places that made you cry?
I really enjoy this book club guest, Catherine Illingworth! She's not just a gifted literary scholar but instructor as well. She distills these immense works of literature into language we non-geniuses can understand.
Michael Knowles, this is the very, very best CZcams video of all time. You did well as did Catherine Illingworth. Where did you find her? Excellent in every way.
I am Italian and I approve this
Did he do a good job pronouncing in Italian?
@@rachaelchavez8766 I would give him a 7 out of 10
@@giulianol nice. I was just wondering 😁
@@rachaelchavez8766 meh 6/10, exceptional for an American though.
As a native portuguese speaker, I can understand everything he said in italian, perfectly! I would give him a 9/10 Hahahahah
One of masterpieces of all masterpieces in world literature. But I will say this, equally masterful are Dore's illustrations of the Divine Comedy!
I had to read this as a freshman in high school. Classical Catholic education, baby!
I wish there will be an audiobook where Michael reads the Divine Comedy in Italian... even if I can’t speak Italian it is amazing to hear
This made me so happy - Dante's Diving Comedy is a beautiful depiction of earthy and divine Love and they did such a good job with this episode. Also I'm so glad he recited the beginning in Italian; I memorized that in 9th grade and still remember it. I still have my old books with Henry Longfellow's sonnets written on the front and back flaps.
It seems there is a fine line between insight, imagination and/or revelation. You have provided a brief, but profound overview of this epic poem. Thank you.
Catherine and yourself were absolutely enthralling in your short journey through Dantes Divine Comedy.
I understood this masterpiece to have been created for the following reasons, 1) To create a most perfect and beautiful language ( Italian)able to communicate profound conceptions regarding Man , Nature and God. The vulgate was not cohesive and beautiful but this new and improved version was as close as you can get. 2 ) In the process imparting all of the extent knowledge and wisdom to his countrymen so as to create a “Rennacimento”. 3) Lead us all to the triune. God.
Please pardon my Italian spelling.
I hope Michael Knowles does a Book Club on Reasons to Vote for Democrats and it's just him staring into the camera for 40 minutes.
LOL....No one can do 40 minutes on Reasons to vote for Democrats!!! 😁
😆😅🤣
He already made such a video with Andrew Klavan. But it would be a great idea to discuss the ideas
😂😂😂🤣🤣 save it for April first
It would a 40-minute summary of why you should vote republican and at the end you say "if you want to destroy all these, vote democrat"
The Divine Comedy is basically Dante's fan fiction. He gets to talk with the people he loves and condemn the people he hates to eternal suffering. And it's great.
The concept of "fan fiction" doesn't make sense when projected that far back.
My favorite phrase from Paradiso is "That sun which first warmed my breast with love had discovered to me, through proof and refutation, fair truth's sweet aspect, and I moved my head, but not higher than need for speech, to find myself corrected and assured." I used that phrase in an art show I had in 1997. Credit duly given to Dante and also the translator John Sinclair. It's so nice to hear you talk about this amazing book. Also another great book is Vita Nuova, which I learned about from the book The Body of Beatrice.
That was one of the most entertaining CZcams videos I’ve ever seen.
Catherine’s intelligence, body language, and her beloved mannerisms is just outstanding.
40 of the most valuable minutes on CZcams. Absolutely great!
This was the most focused bookclub you have done yet, bravo, loved it. Catherine Illingworth is a treasure!
I would love to see an in depth discussion about the Red Mars, Blue Mars, Green Mars books in this age of mars discovery
I'm watching this while procrastanating the writing of my thesis... On Dante's Purgatory... the irony. xD
Love it!
I read it in Italian during college. I’ve said ever since that if you’re not Catholic before you read it, it will convert you.
If you’re already Catholic, it’s a practical catechism.
Despite all the blatant criticism of the Catholic Church as an institution and the people who run it? He got exiled from Florence for siding against the Vatican, his work is not exactly a love letter to the Church. He puts various popes in his circles of hell. Martin Luther drew some of his ideas from Dantes critique.
@@studentanselmus9461 Lighten up mate, it's poetry - as is the comment. Do protestants get poetry?
@@davidcockayne3381 I'm not a Protestant, but Literature and History Student, hence my objection.
@@studentanselmus9461 Ah, that explains your shallow judgmentalism, then.
@@davidcockayne3381 How am I shallow or judgememtal? I just think that the statement that Dantes work is reinforcing Catholicism specifically instead of criticising it is not in any way supported by the text and isn't true to the intentions of the author. Thus, to most Catholics who read and understand it deeply enough for it to be catechism to them, the lesson would probably not be unbridled praise, but (to be fair, by now mostly anachronistic) crticism of their instititions. Everybody can get everything out of a work of literature, I guess, if they want to read it in accordance with the beliefs they already hold, no matter what the text actually says and means, but what is the point of reading it then?
I also did not pass judgement about religion or catholicism, I merely pointed out that Dante did.
The Divine Comedy is a masterpiece! Mille grazie, Michael Knowles & Catherine Illingworth for a wonderful segment on this great work. Kudos!
I didn't immediately go from high school to college because I didn't think the process would answer my deepest questions. After finally starting night school I took a humanities class on the Italian Renaissance, where Dante's Inferno was assigned. I realized then that a study of the arts was critical to a genuine education. Thanks Prager U.
So, I’m not the only one who cries while reading a book. Good to know. Thanks, for a lovely education.
I took my time reading it. Two years. I felt it was a book I needed to live rather than read. Awareness of the ideas of Plato and Carl Jung was a great help. The last lines of "Paradise" are simply extraordinary. In my view, Leonardo da Vinci's rendition of Vitruvian Man is a perfect image to link to the ending.
I have finished Dante's Inferno and am currently halfway through Purgatory before moving up to Paradise. Very beautifully written. Also I would also add something to which they didn't mention on how to read the Divine Comedy is: get one with illustrations. Particularly Gustave Dore's illustrations which really bring this poetic masterpiece to life. It'll help you if you are stuck on certain parts and your brain is trying to paint a picture and it just can't.
I am not an avid reader, quite the opposite. I have hated reading for as long as I’ve lived, but this poem made me love reading. It’s my first “real” book that I’m reading as an adult, so I hate to think that I have ruined it for the rest of my life because it’s unlikely that I will find any other work of literature as enthralling and beautiful as the Divine Comedy.
Who is this brilliant young lady?
Love this.
Does it qualify as “the best piece of art in any form that I have ever seen in my life,” as Michelle Obama said of Hamilton?
I didn't know Michael could speak Italian that well. That's pretty neat. XD
Regarding translations of Dante's Commedia (Divine was added after the fact, Dante originally just called his work the Comedy). 😊
1. My personal favorite is the Mandelbaum translation. It's blank verse. The World of Dante uses his translation as their base English translation, so one can read it online. I also have the Everyman's Library edition which is a beautifully crafted hardback that's worth owning. Everyman's Library books are almost always excellent editions of the classics. Just superb quality in terms of look and feel.
2. Same with Longfellow, he's available everywhere online, since he's in the public domain. Longfellow was of course an amazing poet in his own right, and a scholar and a professor of Italian at Harvard University back in the 19th century. His translation of Dante is itself a work of art. I believe it was the first major American English translation of Dante's Commedia. Well worth reading, though the language reflects his time and place and as such needs some effort. As far as earlier translations go, Longfellow is more enjoyable to read than Cary, in my opinion. And Longfellow in print often seems to come with the gorgeous Gustave Dore illustrations.
3. Musa is a good choice too. I find him simple and clear to follow with an understated elegance. He's not my favorite, but I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone if they enjoy Musa. I disagree with some of his notes (e.g. his psychoanalysis of Dante's motives in writing about Beatrice). But overall he's fine.
4. Hollander is available through the Princeton Dante Project. It's a serviceable translation in free verse predominantly done by his wife, while he predominantly did the notes. I find the free verse can be a bit jarring or too abrupt at times. Also, for better *and* worse, it's very much a literal or formal equivalence translation, but at the cost of literary beauty, at least to my ears. It comes with a tremendous amount of helps, super detailed notes - almost overwhelmingly so. Some say Hollander has some politically progressive sensibilities, though I haven't noticed it, but I also haven't spent considerable time in the thick of his notes.
5. I'm afraid same goes for Kirkpatrick. It's a good but not outstanding translation. He seems to aim for a grand sweeping epic or theatrical presentation in translation. Kirkpatrick is at times a bit too vulgar for my tastes (e.g. using four letter words like "fig f-").
6. Ciardi is perhaps the most popular. His translation flows beautifully. It well echoes the "music" in Dante's terza rima. However I find Ciardi plays a bit too fast and loose with the meaning for my tastes; it isn't as faithful to the Italian (e.g. where Ulysses says "brothers" in Italian, Ciardi translates as "shipmates", which in context the brothers are indeed his shipmates, but I'd still have preferred to have a more literal translation in this case). Nevertheless one could do far worse than Ciardi for the first read-through of Dante. Ciardi is the people's choice. Still if given the choice I would prefer Mandelbaum because I find Mandelbaum just as beautiful as Ciardi and he's more faithful to the underlying text than Ciardi.
7. Esolen is the translation I most wanted to like (similarly Sayers) because I truly respect and admire and appreciate so many of his own publications. He's a notable Catholic professor of literature. I love the look and feel of his three volume translation which has Italian and English and which I have in hardback. His notes are learned and erudite. However I have to reluctantly admit I'm not as impressed with his translation. It's a good but a pedestrian translation. Nothing stands out to me. Perhaps I need to have another go at reading Esolen.
8. There are other translations like Sayers, James, Pinsky, Carson, and Bang, and they each have some interesting or provocative or idiosyncratic takes, and with varying degrees of success and failure - I especially enjoy Pinsky though he only did Inferno I believe - but in general I think these should be reserved for reading after one has already read and is sufficiently familiar with Dante's Commedia in one of the earlier translations mentioned.
9. There are a couple of fine prose translations too. Of course, the prose form loses the poetic structure and all this entails, but it has its benefits like potential for fuller expression of meaning and livelier imagery and perhaps better pulling one into the story qua story and so forth. Durling is a wonderful modern prose translation. Also, a good thing about Durling is it comes with so many helpful notes and maps and so on. Not to mention the Italian is printed alongside the translation. This one can read the story like a novel but also read the Italian to hear the "music".
10. Although Durling is great, my favorite prose translation of the Commedia is an older one by Singleton. Singleton is a legendary Dante scholar and his translation still soars. His extensive commentary on Dante is often still cited today, it is still full of insight. The main problem is Singleton comes in 6 volumes (one volume with the Italian text and English translation and another volume with notes and commentary x 3, that is, for Inferno, Purgatorio, and Paradiso) so altogether it's an expensive purchase.
11. In fairness, I think we're a bit spoiled for choice in English when it comes to Dante. Most of the ones I mentioned above, even ones I'm not too thrilled about, still convey the vision and power of the Commedia. Dante shines through, sometimes as through glorious stain glass, other times as through dirty glass, but nevertheless the beams stream through.
12. Of course, nothing beats the original Italian, which is surprisingly quite comprehensible if one knows modern Italian. It's not as wide as the divide is between, say, modern English and Shakespearean or Elizabethean English. Although there is a wider time interval between modern Italian and the Italian of Dante's period than there is between modern English and Shakespeare, Italian as a language evidently hasn't evolved as dramatically (no pun intended) as English has evolved. The Italian in Dante is certainly dated and it's certainly quite difficult and it certainly presents many knots to untie, but not horribly so - I'd say less so than Shakespeare! I think it's worth tackling if one deeply enjoys Dante and Italian. And if one can read other Romance languages, such as Spanish or French, then learning Italian isn't a huge leap.
13. I find C.S. Lewis's The Discarded Image: An Introduction to Medieval and Renaissance Literature still holds up fairly well and as such could serve as a good introduction to Dante. The literary critic and scholar Harold Bloom calls it Lewis's best academic work. Otherwise Dante: A Very Short Introduction is obviously more specific to Dante and quite helpful. Finally I'll mention Reading Dante by Giuseppe Mazzotta is more advanced and far more in depth. It's part of the Yale Open Course series. All these books could be used for self-studying Dante and his Commedia.
Great insight. At 31 years old I’m finally getting more interest in knowing more about this book...even though I was introduced to it by my Literature professor back when I was 14!!!
I am doing a series about the comedy on my channel if you are interested.
I have loved this book for years!!! So excited I have found you and that you LOVE THIS WORK!!! It is my all time favorite book behind the Bible!! Thank-you Thank-you!!
As soon as you began talking about Dante, I thought of Milton -- because he, too, was a great poet who was sidelined for being on the wrong side of politics. While I prefer Paradise Lost to Inferno, I do admire Dante, and I very much enjoyed your enthusiastic discussion. As for what Adam spoke in the Garden, my immediate response was, "Old Solar, of course." (A reference that only makes sense if you've read C.S. Lewis's space trilogy.) But another great program. I'm a writer and educator, and aside from loving your point of view, I also appreciate your promotion of reading.
Thank you Michael. I started on Inferno a few years back but ended up moving on to another book, haven't gone back to it yet but you're video has reignite my desire to complete it. Thank you.
Thank you both for a lovely view of a truly wonderful and moving work.
The divine comedy is just divine lol
Incredible stimulating conversation. Thanks to Dante and the divine dialectics between Knowles and Illingworth!
I read The Divine Comedy last year. This was something I went through in the space of about 3 months. I got a lot out of it, but, I’m willing to admit that I could have gotten more out of it by taking more time to digest it.
It was a beautiful work of art, it could be something that you read again and again over the course of your life, studying and digesting and it might be a laborious process, but, I think it would be a labor of love.
I miss my Divine Comedy monthly book group in Chicago so much since moving! Your Italian is so beautiful, like music! ps We found that each person in our group of five brought our very unique perspectives. It was fascinating!
it's the only book I've studied in school that I actually liked
probably one of the best pieces of secular literature ever written, if not the best
secular??!!!
@Andro mache true. i think the poem was an exploration into Dante's personal fanfic imagination about the girl, with religious tones, but just read actual scriptural canon for scripture
@@KermXe I'm assuming you've read the protestant canon of scripture? Perhaps if you read the books that were taken out of the bible by Luther, your opinion might change? Although there is much greek mythological references, I think it's very misleading to say that The Divine Comedy is a piece of secular literature. Especially when we consider how important God and Dante's relationship with Him was to Dante
Reading this poem in this present moment and it's glorious!
If you though this was interesting, you should read about St. John Bosco’s visions of hell granted to him to help save his boys.
Excellent. Enjoyed the wonderful exchange. Thank you
This brought more meaning to what at times was a difficult read for me. I will try to find a friend as you suggested. Thank you
What a wonderful and insightful discussion. Thank you.
Read the Barnes and Noble Classics Edition of Comedia. It is the Longfellow translation, and has plenty of notes to give you context.
My personal favorite piece of literature. Also that which made me fall in love with reading.
That was brilliant & beautiful.
Adding this to my list. Knowles would make a good college professor.
I read the translation by John Ciardi. He had great notes so you could get to know some of the people he encountered, and there were also illustrations. I lost the books in a fire, but I'll be getting them again.
How many daily wire tumblers do I have to buy before I can get Michael Knowles to read a canto in Italian? Sounded so good
I'm listening to this as I grade student workbooks. This is so well done!!!
For as amazing and wonderful as this presentation was, I just can't stop admiring how beautiful her hair is...The rest of her is great too but that hair is unrealistically beautiful.
This is my favorite fiction book ever since eleventh grade lit class.
Thank You 🙏 cheers from Pennsylvania 👍👍👍🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Wish i did watch this interview 13 years ago when we are doing our undergraduate thesis entitled MYTHOLOGICAL & HISTORICAL INFLUENCES IN DANTES THE DIVINE COMEDY
Btw folks, if no book or piece of art has ever been able to make you cry, you are sorely missing something fundamental within yourself.
❤️
A man without tears is a man without a heart
The single most important work of literature ever been written by humankind
"Heaven wheels above you displaying to you her eternal glories and still your eyes are on the ground." -- Dante
Catherine is delightful! It sounds like she also knows her Milton. Perhaps invite her back for Paradise Lost?
Just hearing this moved me to tears
John 3:16 cheers from Pennsylvania 🙏🙏🙏 👍👍👍. 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
That is one gorgeous red head.😁
Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita
Mi ritrovai per una selva oscura
Ché la diritta via era smarrita
Ahi quanto a dir qual era è cosa dura
Esta selva selvaggia e aspra e forte
Che nel pensiero rinova la paura!
Tant′è amara che poco è più morte;
Ma per trattar del ben ch'i′ vi trovai,
Dirò de l'altre cose ch'i′ v′ho scorte
Io non so ben ridir com'i′ v'intrai,
Tant′era pien di sonno a quel punto
Che la verace via abbandonai.
Ma poi ch'i′ fui al piè d'un colle giunto,
Là dove terminava quella valle
Che m'avea di paura il cor compunto,
Guardau in alto, e vidi alle sue spalle
Vestite già de′raggi del pianeta
Che mena dritto altrui per ogne calle.
Allor fu la paura un poco queta
Che nel lago del cor m′era durata
La notte ch'i′ passai con tanta pieta.
It is available on CZcams as well. I listened and it is a great book. Love this section.
So happy to have found this channel.
This was very interesting and this makes me want to read it, but I fear I’d have an especially hard time since I am quite young (14) and have no one to help guide me through the reading
Let me encourage you to find a study guide or two and tackle it, even if you cannot find a friend or family member who wants to go through it with you. It will not matter how long it takes you because every step of the journey will be meaningful and enjoyable to you. Any time we have to stand on our tiptoes and reach for something that's just outside our grasp, whether it's physically, intellectually, or spiritually, we grow. It can even be your secret project that you are doing for yourself. It will be so rewarding, not only when you have reached the end and feel a great sense of accomplishment, but it will reward you all along the way. Google for a study guide, even something like Spark Notes will help.
Do not underestimate yourself! I was around your age when I first read it. Take your time. Local librarians are always great at helping. Good luck
It's very difficult. I've read many classics and failed to even get 1/4 way through.
Thanks to everyone in this comment thread, you’ve all encouraged me to attempt the read ❤️
Avoid the LONGFELLOW translation. I've never heard of the translation THEY used. The one I DID use was by CIARDI. It was WAY more enjoyable that trying to fight my way through it with Longfellow.
It is actually a fun read instead of a chore. And this is coming from a guy who's not a fan of poetry at all.
It also had footnote type information to inform the reader about the people Dante meets on his journey.
Lol the entire divine comedy in 40 min. I had an entire semester devoted to this.
Makes me wish I had friends who would want to read this
Dante is phenomenal
Very excited to watch this!
This was so incredibly fun.. and touching, for how this authors work emotionally moved both of you.. quoting Dantes Inferno in Italian to the ladies probably ended in many warm snuggling nights for Mr. Knowles.. lol..
Thank you for the explanation! Now I don't have to read it with a room full of college professor's to make sense of it! 😆
I learned a lot. Thank you.
Amazing episode.
That was great. thank you!
I would love to see a Book Club on the Gulag Archipelago.
Read Inferon many many years ago. W
as hard to keep going, but am very glad i did.
Dante pretty much invented modern fiction. The Comedy presents characters as products of a specific time, place and circumstance as opposed to archetypes or representations of a vice or virtue. And it all takes place in a precisely designed fictional environment.
Why not Anthony Esolen? He did a new translation. He is medievalist. He is Catholic.
Absolutely Brilliant, I wish I can be this much precise
It was really good and concise
I would watch way longer episodes but this was great! I read Inferno in high school and loved it
Such a joy to watch. So interesting. Thank you!
Thank you for a wonderful and interesting discussion.
I'm reading a commentary on the book of Ruth right now and the overwhelming theme it talks about is God's love. I've never read Dante's work and probably never will, but it's interesting to hear that at the end of it all he ties it all back to the love of God.
What happened to the March 2022 book club?
You guys are GOOD!
This was amazing! ❤️
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