Our Top 5 Turnoffs in Games - Gencon 2022
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- čas přidán 13. 08. 2022
- The Dice Tower takes a look at their Top 5 Turnoffs in Games at Gencon 2022
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BGG Link: boardgamegeek.com/boardgamede... - Hry
The addition of Mike to the show over the past years has really elevated the channel. He's a true gem in my mind :)
Agreed... as a solo gamer I love him
Love Mike too! Zee is my fav, though.
I love Mike's inclusion, mainly because with him, they seem so much more... relaxed I will say, because they all seem confident in teasing each other, make more jokes, they are more relaxed in their interactions and, let's be honest, when we are with our good friends we act like that.
Outrageous
"Zip lining through a forest canopy or some off track betting den trying to put $20 down on Chonky Donkey to win in the 5th." Made me burst out laughing
One of the best quotes the dice tower ever had. Glorious.
29:45 for lazy people
😂😂😂😂
And such a genuine laugh after about 'I don't know what know that is..."
Mike Delisio is the best board game comedian i ever seen.
This might be the best audio quality you guys have ever had for a live show. Great job!
Wendy was absolutely right about IP games. They can be good (like Dune Imperium) but my immediate thought with IP games is that they started life as a business deal rather than as a designer’s idea for a great game. It could still turn out to be good, but it’s not as good a start.
Mike and Zee are always worth watching
Agreed. They are easily the most entertaining of the cast.
Great list, I agree with all of you! My biggest turn off has not been mentioned: Huge, overproduced games on KS with 10 KS-exclusive expansions, useless deluxe tokens and counters, KS-exclusive 10 card promo pack and useless miniatures that hide the fact that the game is not that good that go for $300. With VAT and shipping you're paying $400. Ridiculous.
Protect Mike at all costs. His intro to his number 3 is one of the funniest things I've heard.
I second that whole heartedly!
I read this before it happened so my bar was set higher already. I’m still laughing about it.
The "Chonky Donkey" _killed_ Zee. Lol.
@@Mentat1231 'Chonky Donkey' is by far the best running gag of the month!
Yes don’t listen to Wendy. She’s so salty and cringe.
Love that Mike were like. Yeah what ever every time she tried to be funny by an insult… even the whole room were just silent.
Its like Mike's list is nothing but "Yes! Thank you! Preach!!!" over and over and the rest are a big mix of "Yeah i guess" or "What? No wrong."
Thank you Mike for bringing a good opinion to the gang. 😁
I'd add incomplete rules.
It's so frustrating when you've read the rules a couple of times. Then you invite friends over to play your new game. You teach the game, start playing and something comes up that isn't answered in the rulebook. On to bgg you go, hoping that someone has already found the answer you're looking for. Eventually the game gets couple of pages of faq and errata.
Playtest your games with groups that are not familiar with your game. Get these questions answered and errors corrected before you print the rulebook and include them there.
"You're wrong, have you ever played this?!" "No because it's a turn off!" Poor Wendy and Chris getting railed on for doing the right thing. I'm with y'all on a lot of your picks!!!
I totally understand and agree...and I have to say, Marvel is a turn-off for me, as one specifically over-saturated IP. It doesn't mean I think Marvel = bad or they're bad games, I am just far less interested in a game that is Marvel themed, personally.
@@bricelory9534 I totally get it and I'm the same way, too! Another thing is, IP games haven't been as strong as they have been in the last few years so that can also be a hurdle for some folks.
@@highbrowloubrew that's very true.... When you're used to Hasbro quality IP games, it's a big hurdle
great list and especially agree with Mike's pick of memory as a main mechanism. There's so many games that hide information even though the info was made public. I think if information was made public it should almost always be kept public and not secret
Depends. Trick taking card games are a classic example where this is not done. Main reason being that it slows down play immensely if played tricks were open and players start consulting them to see if card X is still in play. Either you don't care about this or you do some (relatively simple) card counting to keep track. The thing is when information is hidden the players that want to use that information have to keep it in active memory and thus play much faster if they want to use the information.
In general I agree, public information should not be hidden. But if the information is difficult to show or gameplay shows down too much by it being open hidden is better, even if it introduces a memory element. Examples are cards in hand players have drafted from a public pool. Keeping those open for everyone is an option (just put the cards on the table) but if your hand also has secret information it becomes a hassle to keep some stuff open and some stuff closed, better all closed then. Think Ticket To Ride, card counting is definitely a thing there but because some cards are secret just keeping them all hidden plays out easier.
My idea is that information should be completely open if it could be tracked, either by memory or by taking notes.
For those who say that open info slows down play, think about how much slower it would become if players decided to write notes about every card played, every coin earned or spent, etc.
Hidden information should have a purpose, like "how much of your X coins are you bidding this time?" or "how many apples did you have in your hand?"
@@patcon314 the thing is, if information is open players will consult it and drag down play. The fact taking notes would take longer is irrelevant as people don't do that, if players want that they will just play open. But i can understand lots of players want hidden because they want the game to flow faster, they can't be bothered to overanalyze situations and prefer other players play fast too.
And some stuff is just physically difficult to play open well. Especially as there can be information that was not open to everyone (cards i passed you in a draft for example) or open information mixed with closed that can give away things.
For example you have games where you draft cards open but also get them hidden. But they might have an opportunity to trade cards for others as well. The moment you play with the publicly known cards open you have an issue when a player wants to trade, they have to hide their hand from that point then anyways.
Having certain types of information in games public also promotes kingmaking and leader bashing. Also, if people beforehand know that there is very little chance for them to change a game's outcome, they would rage quit.
1) Components, that once punched, do not fit back in the box. 2) Lid that doesnt shut 3) Components that do not stay in place once the box is rotated resulting in organizing before set-up. 4) Vague instructions. 5) Miniatures just to have miniatures.
YES, this was so good! Thanks for also sharing with those of us who couldn't make it to the live show 🙂
Saw this live and honestly it was so much more fun in person. You can feel the fun :)
Outrageous… ly funny! Hands down, the best top X video I have ever seen!
Also, Roy nailed it with the intro to his first pick.
Wendy - I agree with your popular IP turnoff. To me it feels like jumping on the bandwagon and I do a silent eye roll, even if it’s an IP I enjoy🙄 convince me there is something underneath and I’m in
Awesome video! Y'all are great!
So Agreeing with Zee’s number 1. Im looking at you, Dominations, with building minis made of of cardboard so cheap one false move while assembling will destroy the tabs, but there is no room for them assembled in the box. I currently use an expansion box from some other game to keep them set up and it bothers me lol.
Thank you Tom for your number three. I heartily agree. I often wonder how many people really and truly find those games appealing. I think the real problem is, a lot of people would otherwise be too embarrassed to say " let's play a board game" to other adults. It's an unfortunate problem.
I think its for teens and college students who want to show how adult they are by doing something edgy.
@@ambiej123 I'm sure that's certainly part of it
Many years ago, I was on the phone discussing reviews and games for college classrooms with a rep for an unnamed company, and they said "Oh, college students, what about [game] After Dark?" and I said "Well, it's a Christian school," and they said "Oh, well how about [same game] Bible edition?"
Popular IP is also a turn-off for me. I come in with the assumption that money/effort was put into getting the IP that should have been spent on the game. There are plenty of games that I love that use popular IP, but I start from a position of suspicion.
Amen to that!
Agreed! I don't get why they were all picking on Wendy for that one.
Especially because popular IPs in videogames are horrific cashgrabs!
I don't get the problem everyone had with Wendy's #4. I think it was pretty straightforward. She *wasn't* saying she doesn't like IPs. She *wasn't* saying games of IPs are necessarily bad. She's just saying that IP-based games tend to not be as good, with obvious exceptions. She's not going to play a game just based on IP. You are going to have to explain why it's actually a good game first. There are a lot of bad IP-based games out there that only get purchased because of the IP. This list is mostly about when you look at a game at the first impressions stage, are there things about it that lower your expectations of liking it. That's what "turn offs" are.
Look at Marvel-based games. Yes, there are several *really good* Marvel games, but there are even more cheap, thoughtless, money-grabs, that no one would buy without the license. This goes off of Tom's #5 as well.
Everyone saying, "do you like LoTR?" "Do you like Marvel?" etc., are completely missing the point. She likes *good games* and the majority of IP-based stuff isn't as good as it should be. Though some are obviously great.
Yeah, agreed. I wish people listened to her explain herself instead of just trying to inject zingers into the conversation.
I mean, the problem is that in the past many IP games were just cash grabs. Nowadays there are more games that does a good job with the IP, so Wendy's #4 sound kind of outdated. Also when asked she said "even IP's that i like" which is weird. I get it , i have trust issues with IP games, but if the IP is something i like i at least will get courious about wether the game is good or bad. The IP is just the theme anyway, It feels kind of arbitrary, so you are turn-off by lord of the rings but not by dracula since dracula is public domain?
That's exactly right about what "turn offs" are. Camilla coming in with "so your number 4 is 'assumptions', got it."...Yeah, that's what this whole list is about. Making assumptions based off of things before you've tried to play them.
Completely agreed w/Mike's 3. My memory is horrible too, and has been my whole life. I'm stronger in other places, like guessing quickly or evaluating my opponents next moves via body language. I'm not great at thinking ahead 4 turns, either. For me, being presented more than a handful of considerations combined with bad memory usually results in analysis paralysis.
I'm with Mike on that one too... I dislike games where memory is the core of the game. Count me out.
on the axe chick's 3: me and my spouse had a game of Catan where we had a building turn, where we both got stuff on the map and between us, we had one resource card. And then 5 straight rounds of us rolling 7 (robber) happened... and it was just us passing that one card back and forth until FINALLY someone rolled a useful number.
Kickstarter campaign games with exclusives that, not only are impossible to get if you didn’t back the game but without them, make the retail version feel stripped and lacking. CMON is one of the biggest offenders of this and very evident with their Zombicide games.
Or even worse, the exclusive character/card, but it ends up too OP and breaks the game.
One of mine (more of an "angry" than a "turnoff," to be fair) would be "Euros that waste awesome themes."
Seriously, we got Tom pointing out the sheep thing and "trading in the Mediterranean", but nobody ever seems to care about Euro designers selecting historical places and/or periods with huge thematic potential only to then completely waste the "theme." The Euro may be good, but why use up a good theme on it?
For instance, Renaissance Florence has sooo much thematic potential, but there have been like five completely theme-less Euros named some variation of "Florence."
That basically removes the possibility of having an actually thematic game based on Renaissance Italy.
You can essentially name any city or region of Europe and say the same thing. Or really any historical location/era.
A lot of thematic territory has been carpet-bombed by the Euro designers to make games that could just as easily have been named "Spiel A-5."
I mean, what if someone *actually* produced a thematic game that really felt like you were trading exotic goods in the Mediterranean surrounded by intrigue and adventure? Would anyone actually buy it? Nope. That market space is already nuked. Thanks a lot.
Thoughtful comment and I agree. I think On Mars wasted the Mars theme.
So what should these designers call their games and theme them on? Spreadsheet the game? It has to have a theme, even if it’s mechanisms centric.
But still, you can have as many games as you want themed around Florence or whatever with a variation of thematic integration.
I totally disagree with this comment. It’s one thing to say ‘I like the games I play to be more thematically integrated’ but to basically say you don’t want games other people love to exist or to deny them any theme so your heavy theme games don’t have some perceived competition is a bit ridiculous.
This was extremely entertaining! Your anger makes me happy lol
This dude who`s ooooooooooooing in audience in every single occasion is by far the biggest turnoff of this video.
Semi co op can work. Auztrailia is a great example. Everyone is competing to win, but if the group does not collectively do well, then the game beats everyone. I wish more games were like this.
Hmmm, Red Cathedral 100% has dice mitigation - you have to be creative in how to utilize every dice roll. There are more options than what there initially appears to be. I’ve played 20x and never had a roll that couldn’t be productive in some way.
Yeah, that was a bizarre claim. At least Wendy corrected her...
Zee needs to audition for the next Predator movie. His laugh during Tom's semi co-op thing was spot on
Screen caps only ever worked for me in Star Trek Fleet Captain because that game was like a nostalgic love fest to the Star Trek series' we all grew up on. Every card would have me and my friend saying "remember that episode?" or even quoting a character in it.
Mike taught me a new word today! ap·o·plec·tic ; overcome with anger; extremely indignant.
At first thought it was unfortunate that Roy couldn't be on the panel but then was pleasantly surprised you recorded his entries in advance.
Some one has to run the show! So I got to do both! It was fun!
Zee’s #4 made me laugh. “Yay, you created a world” lol
We did as much playing D&D as 8 year olds. "Welcome to the magic realm of Druidaria, here's a map of the eastern continent of Nymwaer. You begin your adventure in a busy tavern in the capital city of Yserum." I just created a new world.
I wish they would have examples of games that meet the criterion.
Zee's number 2 pick made me think of that classic Carol Burnett sketch where they played Sorry!
I always considered a "semi-co-op" game to be a game where there is one player who is playing against everyone else who are working together. So Fury of Dracula, Star Wars Imperial Assault (Campaign mode), Detective: City of angels (with the Chisel), Pandemic with the bio-terrorist role, are examples of semi-co-op games in my mind. I guess their definition is a bit different, like Diplomacy... we work together for now but eventually have to backstab in order to win.
Wow, I started off with a list of two, but kept adding to it as I went. I do have a couple not mentioned though. I hate generic “canyon tray” boxes. It is lazy packaging. I also hate games that never fit back in the box once you have punched out everything and sorted them into bags.
The hieroglyphs one is interesting because I'm actively looking for games with them to play with my 4 year old. He can read, but he can't skim a bunch of cards quickly like I can. Hieroglyphs make it possible for him to skim as fast as me. My other kids will be in the same boat as they age up. In general, I like iconography with text, but that's not as accessible to kids.
A couple of mine are crappy (or no) inserts where I have to come up with storage solutions for the game components and games that take forever to set up and tear down. I don't want to spend 10+ minutes setting up and 10+ minutes putting things away.
I agree with all of these! Here are my personal top 5 things that turn me off from a game:
5. Cards Against Humanity clones.
4. Kickstarter games with exclusives that aren't guaranteed to ever be rereleased.
3. Social deduction. (I enjoy playing games but I don't enjoy playing people; and I hate the feeling of realizing that someone has been playing me!)
2. Games that use still images from the movie/show they are based on instead of original art.
1. Miniatures being a selling point without having a cheaper option that leaves out the miniatures.
27:40 Semi-coop makes sense for a role playing game, not for a board game.
It can make sense for a board game if you play a championship and there is meta-scoring like: the winner gets 3 championship points and the other players get 1 but everyone gets 0 if the ship has sunk.
"Fpoon"... also classic. Good one Chris.
for me, one of my biggest "turnoffs" are poorly designed inserts. Great Wall by Awaken Realms is a great example, since the insert is excellent, except there is no where to put the wall components. I also bought Ark Nova at Gen Con, and it even mentions in the rulebook that not all the enclosure pieces will fit in the insert and that you should probably bag a couple. Really?
I agree with The Great Wall not fitting the walls without modification, but in defense of Ark Nova, the rulebook does say that the extra tokens that won't fit are more than what is needed for gameplay, so I think it's cool they used the extra punchboard real estate to provide spares rather than just having a blank punch or a Proof of Purchase or nothing.
Annoying too are generally well designed inserts that were not designed to hold sleeved cards. GWT 2nd edition for example
So, Fantasy Flight Games?
@@DirtyApples88 Shout-out to the Trench™
So glad to see the voice-over from Roy. I like Roy and I think he does an amazing job behind the scenes.
13:47 - This was fantastic!
43:50 Saying "Uno" is just about declaring that you're about to win soon. Granted Uno doesn't have much choices but sometimes they're there for a mechanical reason. Like how in Mahjong you must declare out loud your pungs and chows. It's about communicating to your opponents what just happened in a clear, unambiguous way.
Check… Mate
This was a fun one 🙂
To add on to Zees number one complaint, please tell me how to store the game in your box after I punched out all the pieces. Fantasy Flight is the worst for this. They'll give you an entire box full of components and two bags to store it all in.
Fantasy Flight games are packaged to protect the game during shipping. You can store these games however you want. If the storage in the boxes were tight, that might be an issue. But, these games tend to have a lot of extra room for custom solutions.
Exactly, I love when games are very clear on how to pack it away. I recently picked up Dice Forge and it has a whole checklist of how to pack it, with many parts of the insert labeled. Quadropolis is another with a well-designed and lableled insert
I think Chris was correct before his four saying the group was leaning more towards to angry and not the topic of turnoffs. Some wiggle room there but whatever. As an example I’ll play a game if the back of the rule book is blank, I too think that is a silly waste of space but I’ll still play the game. Same example, the game has an blank back page of a rulebook but it’s a train game, that makes me not interested.
Train/Western/Trading in the Mediterranean/Euro to be Euro Theme
Co-ops
Solo only
Memory/Real time/Skirmish/Area Control mechanisms
a short list
Nailed it with your #1, Roy!! The ONLY decision is when you pick a pawn...
I'm enjoying the person who doesn't know how applause works
Agree with Mike!
For me, one would definitely be poor color choices for components. In video games there have been more color blind options recently and thats a great thing. Its like some games don't even think about people with color issues. I know you can solve everything as there are multiple types of color blindness. But as an example, I love catan but they could have had better options for color in the game and 5-6 player expansion. Like if someone picks brown, I immediately remove green from the game. Once those roads and settlements cover the board, I can't tell them apart and have to rely on others to tell me who is what. Red is just different enough for me to pick out. I know there are more color options you can buy from the site, but why are all the easier to tell apart colors not just in the game to start? When things blend too much its just an issue that I personally have.
I played Sidereal Confluence with a color blind guy about a week ago. Thankfully he was a good sport about it because it was hard not to laugh when he held out two black cubes asking if anyone needed any green cubes. Lol
For Zee's #2: Sentinels of the Multiverse. The hero Guise has a card in his deck that requires you to throw your hands in the air and shout "Wooo!"
My favorite "Take That" is Survive! It is great fun, but can't play it with some people, apparently!
Rodney Smith is the best to explain game rules. Love him. Also love the Dice Tower.
Try putting the rule book in front of you next time you watch him. He basically repeats or slightly rephrases the rule book much of the time. I much prefer reading the rules myself, then watching a PlayThrough to solidify my understanding. To each their own!
@@chuckm1961 Well not really. He might repeat the rulebook, but the beauty is in the structuring: what goes when. I hate it when you start reading about some mechanism when you don't even know the damn card anatomy or whatever what means. Or annotations in the rule book that contain IMPORTANT rules. Or even more - rules that are spread across multiple components: some are in the actual rulebook, and some of the mechanisms explained somewhere in the scenario book or on that particular card or somewhere else. Sometimes it just drives me crazy. Rodney makes a perfect job structuring all that mess into a video. Of course, good rulebook leads to reapeating the same stuff in the video, sure. But that's only when rulebook is good..
lol I coughed up a lung when ~1:52 mins in, that yelping guy came back when Tom introduced Camilla. Sounds like if R2-D2 was a goat
The turn off for me that was not mentioned is a game that has public information that is trackable but would require me to write down the info or repeatedly look at other people's player board. Medici the Dice game is the one that comes to mind. I would rather that the info be hidden and have to track what has happened rather than calculating the correct move.
Hey Mike, pretty good Krusty!
I have to say I never thought I'd see Immortal referenced on the Dice Tower.
I 100% agree on the IP"s. I too don't like it unless there is a good game there.
Turnoff - when I’m interested in buying a game and there is no Dice Tower review. Love and trust your opinions!
14:00 LOL that was amazing
Red Cathedral has mitigation, but more importantly, you can have multiple avenues toward scoring going at all times. If you can't get to wood this round, work toward something else.
Game isn't bad, I wouldn't have sought it out on my own as it does many things I don't like (theme/interaction/graphic design), but it isn't bad.
Yeah, Camilla really had a bizarre example there. At least Wendy corrected her...
I get annoyed when people talk about memory being an "unfair" mechanism to use in games when a lot of people might be more skilled at memory than math and math is used in almost every game without anyone complaining about it. I'm also terrible at flicking things and having a steady hand but I don't think people whine about dexterity games that much. Memory is so seldom used suck it up and do badly :-P Tom is right on this one!
like counting cards, i have heard of people that says it's cheat, but i don't get why it would be cheat to use your mind in a game
@@naegling ask Vegas
@@danacoleman4007 even in Vegas, card counting isn’t cheating. It’s just playing well. So well that the casino is likely to ban you.
Agreed. I want nothing to do with memory games or flicking games (and I am crap at both), but I’d never claim it’s unfair.
#1 for me is easily bad rule books. When I constantly have to look on BGG to get clarifications & explanations of rules it is infuriating. Years ago, we decided to use Watch It Played or Jon Gets Games videos because they just do such a great job explaining rules. I won't even crack most rule books if there is a good how-to video. It's astounding to me how many rule books don't explain rules clearly or don't even explain how many parts of their game work at all.
My number one would be games where it is down to a players decision who wins a round or who gets what rewards/resources
No one mentioned cardboard tokens or other components that you need to pop out. Prime example are the new Carcassone expansions or a game that has a lot of cardboard components that need popped out. There is a good chance some of the tokens or components will be damaged trying to get them out.
Honestly I’m a little disappointed when I get a new game and the tokens have already been punched out.
I seem to have similar feelings to Roy. Interactions are where its at for me. Not at the table to complete the game or even win. I'm there to enjoy time with my friends.
What about the Great Wall. Is that consider semi coop
Zee with the zingers!. Beige Cathedral and Munchkin with an IP... LOL
I'm with Roy the most; I hate bland themes, games with very little or no interaction, and games that don't look very interesting. A few of the others work for me too, like semi-co-op and generic themes.
Bad rule books drive me nuts, just like Mike! I also hate when the FAQ is longer than the rulebook.
Mike's # 4 .... Uno comes to mind (is that a boardgame?) ... We still have people in the office that don't talk to each other after years because of this game (played during lunch).
Yes to Zee's #2!
I agree with Wendy's #1 partially. Not specifically dudes on a map but her point about the randomness of attacking someone in some of these games.
There's a very popular game where you can have 5 troops and go in and attack somebody else's 2 troops and just lose because they roll the 3 and you rolled a 0.
Not fun.
+1 for Mike on the real time mechanism. I won't play games with that mechanic.
Agreed. Ill keep real time to video games.
I understand Wendy's #4. Of course, there will be exceptions, but I get it.
17:14 What games is Mike talking about on his number 4? Give examples or I don't get it!
Maybe something like Sorry! where the "fun" of the game is knocking other players' pieces back to the start. Uno probably fits here too.
IP is a great answer and the one I agree with the most. No idea why so many people argued against her...
Also, in respect to games with weird rules, I have 3-words for you: Mad Magazine Game. One of my all-time favourites.
Two things I thought of that weren't mentioned in any of the lists:
1) Disposable game components. First game that comes to mind is Welcome To. If Railroad Ink can supply laminated player sheets at an affordable price point, so can they. Single use score pads aren't as bad but the base game should be laminated/reusable. If there is demand for it, companies can still sell pads of paper sheets for large groups/conventions.
2) Snap together components. Starfarers of Catan being a well known culprit. Any game pieces that need to snap together and come apart again for the game to function. Globetrotting is a recent example of a Kickstarter that I was immediately hesitant on because once those globe halves no longer lock together well, the game becomes worthless.
I much prefer paper than dry erase boards. BUT... Welcome to DOES have dry erase boards available and you can laminate them.
Regarding Zee's No1: What about the dice tower in Wingspan? You have to at least divide it into 2 parts to figure it back into the box.
Agree with many of these, but the biggest one for me currently is app driven games
Surprised to see Immortal make a cameo here, even if it was by meme.
A turnoff for me is these Super Mega Deluxe Kickstarters out there.
I just hate it when there's a great game, but if you don't get this and this and a more extras you get severe FOMO.
A few examples lately is Last Light (sorry Roy, I know it's not your fault) and Bretwalda. I really wanted Last Light, but then the page keeps showing all these fantastic 3D stuff, so yeah I want those too! And we are often 5 players in our game group, so of course I want the 5-8 player expansion as well. Oh, and with the upgraded versions of course. Suddenly we are a lot above my budget. So I ended up not backing it at all. Same story with Bretwalda really. And Castles of Burgundy.
Just make the Kickstarter in one version, and maybe a few extras or KS exclusives, don't make it ridiculous..
Screen caps are such a good one, they epitomize IP cash-ins as a concept
Runaway winner/perfect turns to keep up (steam/food chain)
100% Mike/Tom's #1, I wrote a big thing about this on BGG the other day for the new game "Imperium". There's a great game in there, but man... that rulebook is rough at best... and there's just NO reason for it.
Agree wholeheartedly about bad rule books. About 25 years ago I used to play a game called Seekrieg, a miniatures game of warship combat. Fun game, but someone had to explain it to me. The rules were near indecipherable.
I got into gaming back in the 1980s with Avalon Hill games and a couple other companies and some of those rule books were terrible. The games were too complicated and convoluted. Perhaps they were fun but I'll never know. Third Reich, Squad Leader, Freedom in the Galaxy... My friends and I still joke about my failure to understand Magic Realm, which, to this day, I don't think is my fault.
I agree with Wendy... long games are just a chore at this point in my life 😂
Again I agree with Wendy... I "tend" to be hesitant when there is an IP... I do like IP games but at first glance I tend to doubt.... SPECIALLY because of Zees #3 "Screen Caps!"
First time I totally disagree with Zee "Wafflepaffle in the Land of Likrahoot" would be an AMAZING name for a game 🙃
"The Gaston" 🤣🤣🤣
"Cool components get in the way"... would probably be in my list but like "Over produced games"... big box kickstarter messes of a game.
And Zee´s #1 is why he is my spirit animal 🙌🙌🙌 Completely Agree!!!
Only managed a couple of minutes before the screamer in the audience did my head in!
I agree with Tom on terrible rule books and I know exactly what game he was referencing at the end. I own it, and the bad rule book just turns me off pulling it out.
Mike's #4 makes me think of Evolution. Once the first carnivore comes out..
So many rule books reference Rodney Smith's videos, it's hilarious. He is so good at what he does though - so it makes sense.
On the time issue: Games can be engaging AND long. TI has a ton of pointless downtime and goes longer than it should, no question about that. I'm not sure if I can think of a euro style game that fits as a counter-example but lots of war games do, like Paths of Glory might have a few dull actions in a turn but every single turn is going to have a lot of direct conflict that's significantly changing the board state and keeping you engaged playing out the whole of World War 1.
And Mike's games about crushing your opponents. Yes, interaction is different but there is also a difference between games that just result in one person not having fun and games where players can be reduced to being no longer competitive. Something like say an Eric Lang game or Innovation can still be fun as you're being crushed and then it's over quickly and you play another game instead of lingering.
For Roy's #4 someone really needs to make a area control conflict based farming game. You play a farmer who fights weeds for control of your crops, using goats and sheep as patrol units, and hired marksman to snipe beasts at the edge of the forest line. Actually we need a sequel to Root, only with farm animals instead of woodland animals.
I agree about dice games with no or low mitigation. Lots of people make excuses but a small amount of mitigation is still effectively no meaningful mitigation over the course of an entire game.
Also the dice issue can add on to the issue of no interaction. Games where you only meaningful interact a few times per game does not make the game interactive in any way. As an example Terraforming Mars, where unless you're drafting the chances of a decision you make conflicting with a decision another player would make in any meaningful way is so low you can count the times it will happen on a single hand. Alternatively games where something a player does can impact you, but you've still got a ton of different and easily viable alternatives also doesn't count as interaction, like almost every worker placement game ever.
Oh man, Mike's #1 with rulebooks. Yes, all of that, but also a lot of times I'm reading the rules to determine if I want to buy a game and reading a straight scan or print copy of a PDF rulebook online is terrible. Make a readable web version of your rulebook, where I'm not scrolling down the left side of the page, then shifting halfway down to reading the right half of the page, then going to the next page to finish off the section and finally having to return to the last page to see the separate example section on the bottom of the previous page. Terrible reading it on a small screen or where you're zoomed in to enlarge the text.
I'd say my top turnoff is the whole interaction thing, you need it in a multiplayer game and has to actually have meaningful interaction over the course of the game. But since that was mostly brought up I'll instead build off Zee's #1 and say components that maybe don't have to be broken down but just take up pointless space. Like the miniatures in Vindication, a game that clearly isn't a miniatures based game in any way but they're there and just take up space.
Have to politely disagree about TI4 and pointless downtime. Downtime gives me time to plan and there is a lot of table talk.
@@kyleweeks2941 Yes theirs no problem with down time but if downtime starts to get into minutes and you start to feel board that’s not fun.
@@kyleweeks2941 If you need so much time to plan the problem is analysis paralysis, not that the game needs downtime. As for table talk if you're familiar with the game you talk as you play, if you're not familiar with the game you're not table talking much or it's instructional in nature and obviously time helping someone learn the game isn't really downtime.
How much time do you need to plan your turn. I usually just pick what seems most fun to do and it usually ends up stupidly wokring
A turn-off for me is anything that has Marvel in it. I'm not saying that I hate Marvel; I'm just saying that it turns me off.
I thought that Camilla enjoyed "King of Tokyo: After Dark"?
My biggest turnoff is a game that not only has players eliminated, but actually promotes their elimination - and hence their sitting around for hours waiting for the others to finish.
14:10 Basically Ian O'Toole art :P
19:50 I agree with Wendy. IP may let the the designers lazy.
26:45 There are a few SemiCoop games, that are good. But most of the games that say it are horrible as semicoop.
47:00 After the empire minis. The cubes are better in that game!