Ok, so let me explain some of these off the top of my head: Akuma I: Messatsu-Gouhadou (A powered up hadouken, simple as that.) II: Messatsu-Goushoryu (Basically just Shoryu-Reppa [Ken's SAI]) III: Messatsu-Gourasen (A upward moving hurricane kick.) Chun-Li: I: Kikou-Shou (Big ball of energy in front of Chun) II: Houyoku-Sen (The Diego parry super [Moment #37] however, while it is parryable, it's still one of the best in the game) III: Tensei-Ranka (A dropkick super) Dudley: I: Rocket Uppercut (A big, rising uppercut) II: Rolling Thunder (Again, similar to Shoryu-Reppa) III: Corkscrew Blow (A fast, forward moving punch) Ken: I: Shoryu-Reppa (3 consecutive uppercuts in a row, moving forward) II: Shinryu-Ken (A big flaming uppercut similar to Dudley's Rocket Uppercut [SAI]) III: Shippu-Jinrai-Kyaku (One of the better supers, a consecutive five kicks followed up by a rising hurricane kick.) Makoto: I: Seichusen-Godanzuki (A low punch, followed up by 3 consectutive hits, and a final high punch that sends the opponent flying out of the screen.) II: Abare-Tosanami (Makoto flies to one side of the screen, then immediately comes down with a flurry of kicks. If you execute it right, you can perform a touch of death combo.) III: Tanden-Renki (Powers up Makoto's damage) Ryu: I: Shinkuu-Hadou-Ken (A powered up Hadoken similar to Akuma's SAI) II: Shin-Shoryu-Ken (One of his most famous supers, one big uppercut that sends both Ryu and his opponent flying) III: Denjin-Hadou-Ken (Like SAI, but you can charge it to increase it's power) Urien: III: Aegis Reflector (One of his most infamous supers, a wall of electricity that can be used to setup left-right unblockables) Yun: III: Genei-Jin (One of the most horrifying supers in the game, a custom-combo type system which allows him to cancel most of his moves.)
Fighting games need to instead of patching bad characters add voice lines if the announcer legitimately startle that you picked them. “Yo who the fuck picks Remy?!”
Man, Alex is like the most cursed SF character ever. He's almost always bad, doesn't have a real command grab super, his best super isn't even good for the super itself, and most people probably don't even realize he's the main character in SF3.
He’s good in SFV rn. I’ve been thinking he was cool ever since Sf3. I love his design and how he just nonchalantly got kidnapped in the lore for shadaloo testing. It feels nostalgic beating the shit out of gill with him in both games in a badass way. (With a power bomb)
Thats what made Capcom literally hide the guy for years until V. Fans really chewed him up and spat him out due to being so mediocre and having such an incongruent moveset.
You might've alluded to this, but Hugo can actually confirm super art 3 from 2 crouching jabs. I feel it's important to mention that he has a confirm move that's faster than 17 frames
Remy is the only one character in the game who has a taunt that does nothing except literally taunting. The character itself is the ultimate disrespect 😂
@@pieth68 his taunt increases his stun output. But he never stuns people and the taunt itself is basically asking the opponent to hit you with a full jump in.
One additional thing that makes Akuma SA2 a bit more useful than 3 is its fast startup, meaning you can combo out of an early divekick and get the full super connect. There's footage of Jiro using it against low health characters both for this reason and to punish otherwise safe rekkas from Yang
@@Neogears1312 A fair point if you're looking for easy damage, but the damage increase from SA3 off a jab reset is negligible compared to ending a combo with shoryu cancelled into SA1 or even SA2, and the reset isn't even guaranteed, with a substantial price to pay if it does get parried.
Yang's Seiei-Enbu is probably the super I feel the most bad about in the game. It's a super that's basically never picked; but not because the super itself is bad. It's actually really, really GOOD. It's just that Yang's EXes are too valuable to give up. So most people just use SA2 for lots of EXes. It's a shame, because SA3 really is very cool and fun on the rare occasion it's seen.
I say this a lot bu seiei enbu is probably a top 10 super in a vacuum because it lets anyone open someone up for free and or get good damage all while being safe. The problem is it’s on Yang, the one character in the entire game that benefits from having this super the least out any character. 12 would be a menace with this, ryu would be a nightmare and Dudley would be unstoppable. But it’s on the guy who did all of this with his base kit perfectly and has the best Ex move in the game.
It's good but not amazing and makes yang's gameplay too linear. It's totally viable on its own but the versatility of ex slashes and having a reversal makes sa2 better.
57:53 I play as Twelve more often these days, just for the sake of changing the pace and throwing opponents off. One of the most underutilized aspects of Twelve's SA1 is the invincibility it gives his upper body. If timed well, it will let you dodge and counter projectile Super Arts like Ryu's Shinkuu and Denjin Hadoukens, Akuma's standing Messatsu Gou Hadou, Sean's Hadou Burst, etc. It will also go through Urien's Aegis Reflector (!), Oro's Yagyou Dama, Chun-Li's Kikosho at certain distances, and beat out Necro's Electric Snake. It can also counter Remy's Light of Justice, but you need to be mid-range and trigger it before the second wave of projectiles come out. In short, it can be used as a counter Super Art in certain matchups. Anyone who jokes that XCOPY is his best Super hasn't spent enough time experimenting with SA1.
Yeah its certainly interesting to balance around. I'm shocked it's pretty much just a 3S thing. You get to choose how complex you want your meter to be, between super go brrr (Chun, Akuma and most of the install supers like Genei-Jin), a moderate amount of balance between EX and Super (Ryu fireball supers, Ken's SA1 and 3, Makoto SA1 and 2), or all EX, all the time (Alex SA2, Yang SA2, Sean SA1 lol I guess, etc). Imagine SF4 with this balance style instead of the split meter. Like, different lengths and having Super, U1, and U2 as different lengths along with EX and FADC. Hell, Akuma could get back his KKZ or something.
This would be great, but it's reliant on the system allowing for it. For example: if we had multiple CAs in SFV, it could work there because CAs are mostly combo enders, not too much utility. In a game like SF4, I don't know that it would work. If we say that Ultras were supers for the sake of argument, that's kind of broken. Supers with high amounts of meter would be strong just because meter is strong in that game, even if the super was shitty. Plus, some characters are reliant on Ultra for certain matchups or scenarios, and if those Ultras don't have lots of meter, they're put in a bad position because meter is universaly good.
I mean they kinda did with VT? I think it’s more that they probably think 3S supers are “failed” because most characters only have one viable super, so the choice doesn’t *really* matter
iirc remy SA1 doesn't combo sometimes vs crouching opponents, thus making SA2 the preferred choice by strong remys (Dagger G, Pierrot, etc) EDIT: also SA1 isn't an actual reversal EDIT 2: you pointed out the first edit later in the vid lmaoo
The good thing about sa1 is that’s it’s safe on block and parry and only slightly unsafe on red. Sa1 is great in those matchups like oro and twins where u need a kara flash kick to combo off neutral throw in the corner. But generally use SA2 all the time just cuz more meter and faster and more damage.
I guess I'm one of those rare Elena Healing players. I just feel like if you are going to play a low tier, you might as well play them with the one thing they can do that no one else can; plus you can get similar damage from EX combos that you would from Brave Dance, so I feel like all I'm really losing going with Healing is I'm not getting as much meter for EX moves - which, granted, Elena needs for even basic combos.
@@sfbloodsister So, for one, that's just a matter of me mastering execution. If it's not consistent enough, that's on me. Meanwhile, Brave Dance will just DROP for no apparent reason. It's not often, but it has happened before when I really needed it not to, and at least if I drop an EX combo there's a good chance my opponent won't be able to punish me for that drop. Anyone can punish a Brave Dance where the first hit connects but the rest don't. For two, I consider Brave Dance just an easier version of an option I already have. It's not going to make my opponent play any differently. I can't run any timer scams with it. I can't activate Brave Dance and then cancel it when I know my opponent is gonna try to punish it, allowing me to get my own punish in. Brave Dance doesn't suddenly make tick throws and kara throws WAY more scary, which itself makes her high/low game more scary. Healing, to me, adds a lot more layers to Elena's gameplan and makes her other options more scary as a result.
This is *sick* ! Thank you Baf! This is super helpful to me and my husband (he mains Remy, I play Oro). I play Tekken (used to compete in T2-T4 but just rinky dink local stuff) but I still play 3S, it's such a gorgeous timeless game. I love the enthusiasm you still have after all these years. Your videos have truly upped my game. Much love and stay well!
kkz has an extra utility by being grab invincible which gives it the niche of beating all grabs and grab invincible moves which makes it more desirable than demon in like 4 situations
Interesting tier list, I learned a good bit about the supers. Personally, I'd make some adjustments to most of the supers, so I thought I'd list them here. Alex SA1: more range, improve startup so that you can't jump out of it, change it to a short 3 bar super (lower the damage accordingly). Also, let him confirm it from any flash chop. Alex SA2: lower the pushback on block, give it some suction on hit so it won't fall out.. Alex SA3: give him invincibility on the way down. *Alex in general needs some changes. Mostly, he needs better confirms into meterless specials (why do EX Elbow and Knee have startup hits, but not meterless?)* Sean SA1: give it more hits (keep the weird anti-fireball properties, plus more parries/chip). Sean SA2: more range, give it a 3rd DP for more damage (keep the mashing for the last dp). Sean SA3: make it a medium 2 bar super, also let it combo properly from DP. *Sean did deserve a nerf from 2I, but not this badly. Make him a normal shoto with a unique moveset, instead of bootleg Ken.* Ibuki SA1: N/A Ibuki SA2: give it more ranges, maybe let it confirm from any heavy instead of just backturn. Ibuki SA3: make it 3 short bars, lower the damage a tad bit, and give it an EX version. *Ibuki's change from 2I to 3S is what Sean should have gotten. I think she's fine besides the supers (which also are good, but I'd still change them). As an aside, I also would not mind if her removed 2I super returned, albeit very balanced.* Necro SA1: make it 3 short bars Necro SA2: N/A Necro SA3: N/A *My man Necro is fun, and he's not terrible, but he definitely needs some love. It's funny that Necro, the prototype, is better than Twelve, the final product.* Urien SA1: make it a short 3 bar super, but don't change the damage Urien SA2: make it chargeable like Denjin (if you can't already). Urien SA3: no changes. *Urien is actually surprising well balanced considering how good he is. The only problem is he requires 1000 IQ to play, but I play Ryu in every game, so I'm fine with that.* Akuma SA1: no changes. Akuma SA2: lower the damage, but make it a 3 bar super. Also, it should be his best juggle super. Akuma SA3: more confirms, also give him a reason to use the air version. Akuma KKZ: N/A Akuma RD: no changes. *I think Akuma should have supers with different amounts of bars, but keep the total length the same. Also, give him EX moves (he doesn't need it, but it wouldn't hurt).* Gill: *besides not knowing enough, Gill would have to be rebalanced to even bother changing his supers, so I decided not to try.* Remy SA1: N/A Remy SA2: make it juggle properly, possibly change it to a short 3 bar super Remy SA3: no. Save it for a better character and give Remy a different super. *Remy in general has some good stuff, but a lot of the small things are just done terribly. He doesn't need changes to his specials (besides Cold Blue Kick), but he absolutely needs changes to his normals and system stuff.* Q SA1: no changes. Q SA2: no changes. Q SA3: N/A *Q, again, is like Remy: some of his stuff is nice, but it just feels like a mess. I hope Q and G are the same, because making Q more like G would be a godsend for Q.* Chun-Li SA1: make it 3 short bars Ike Necro). Chun-Li SA2: make it a long 1 bar super (the damage is fine since you can juggle out of it). Also, cut the range so it's not as scary. Chun-Li SA3: improve the anti-air function, give it a damage buff, let it confirm from low forward. *I actually think Chun is mostly fine. Her low forward confirm is nuts, and SA2 is too strong, but the rest of her kit actually seems alright by me. I'd actually keep the low forward confirm, since the changes to her super would mostly balance her. Also, give her a reason to use EX.* Makoto SA1: no changes. Makoto SA2: instead of different angles, just make it track the opponent. Keep everything else as is. Makoto SA3: let her block, but make it so she takes bonus damage when hit. *If Urien is 1000 IQ, Makoto is a 500 IQ character. She's only slightly weaker, but she's much easier to play compared to him. I think she's fine, although I would still adjust 1 or 2 things.* Twelve SA1: make it 3 bars, keep the damage the same. Twelve SA2: give it more damage, and make it easier to confirm. Keep it as a 1 bar super. Twelve SA3: just give him a different super-the idea is cool, but in practice it's worse than Remy's SA3 (the damage is nice, but why not just play that character?) *Twelve is functional only because he's not buggy. He's an airdasher in a non-airdash game, which makes him unique here, but if Sean hadn't been so good in 2I, I'd say Twelve makes Sean look good.* Ryu SA1: no changes. Ryu SA2: give the startup hit more range. Ryu SA3: I'd actually shorten the bar slightly, but not as short as a 3 bar super. *Ryu is, as usual, well balanced. If it were up to me, I'd give him Shinku Tatsu as a Super (and probably make Denjin the EX version of Shinku), but otherwise I'd only make minor changes to him.* Oro SA1: N/A Oro SA2: no changes. Oro SA3: no changes. *Baf, Oro is the other 1000 IQ character. I don't have 1000 IQ, I'm average at best, and I like you too much to risk discussing Oro (mostly because I could easily say something too dumb), so all I'm going to say is this: consider making him a motion character. I wouldn't immediately do it, and I wouldn't change his playstyle at all, but I'd consider making his inputs easier.* Dudley SA1: no changes. Dudley SA2: make it 2 bars. Dudley SA3: no changes. *Again, Dudley is a character whos actually decently balanced despite being top tier. I would make his motions easier (I'd actually make 99% of the motions easier), but otherwise I'd have to do research before touching Dudley too much.* Elena SA1: make it juggle properly, maybe a slight damage buff. Elena SA2: no changes. Elena SA3: no changes. *I actually think Elena's supers are fine, it's her kit that's kinda mediocre. Her meterless moves are better than Alex and Sean, but like them, she's too reliant on EX to perform decent combos. Most of my changes to Elena would give her better combo capability.* Hugo SA1: a smidge more range on startup. Hugo SA2: N/A. Hugo SA3: no changes. *Hugo's in a similar state to Elena: its not that his kit is terrible, it's that everyone else's kits are better. He's not reliant on EX like Elena, but his combo capability isn't great. Elena's easy to buff, but Hugo is difficult (as you said in the Omega Hugo video: you can't give Hugo a cancelable medium).* Ken SA1: make it a short 3 bar super, make it juggle better. Ken SA2: give it a better startup, lower the damage slightly, and make it a medium 2 bar super. Ken SA3: make it a short 2 bar super, mayne buff the damage. *Ken’s balance isn't terrible, but it could be better. He has some problems when lacking EX (why is any move in this franchise minus on hit wtf), and super wise, SAIII basically picks itself. I'd remove a bar, but otherwise I'd mostly just buff his other supers.* Yun SA1: No changes. Yun SA2: Slightly longer bars. Yang SA1: more confirms, increased damage, more consistent in juggles (possibly a 2nd bar). Yang SA2: more damage, make it a short 3 bar super. *I wanna talk about Yun and Yang for a sec. As we know, Genei Jin is busted strong. But, Seiei Enbu is actually pretty good. Now, we could change Genei, but I wanna suggest something else-a switch.* *The supers themselves are unchanged, but Yun now gets Seiei Enbu, while Yang gets Genei Jin. Now, I'd wanna see this in action, but it's possible this alone would lower Yun enough without destroying him, while buffing Yang without making him broken.* Notes: -N/A means idk enough to change it. -All of these changes assume we only change the supers, but most of them would also apply if we rebalanced the whole game (which is why I also put my thoughts for each character). -I'm average at 3S, and this is just after watching the video, so take these as my initial suggestions rather than my final ones. -I mainly play SA1 Ryu, but I have tried out a few other characters (SA2 Yang, SA2 Elena, and SA1 Sean in particular will likely be my secondary characters). -Finally, for my suggestions, I didn't want to remove a super for most of them. I'll allow it for Remy and Twelve's SA3s, and switching Genei and Seiei doesn't count. I say thus because, if 3S were getting a rebalance, I would actually consider either merging some supers and adding new ones, or else just giving everyone an SA4. Feel free to comment your thoughts, and again, great vid as always Baf :D
Here’ my take on fixing Remy Blue Nocturne: Max two bars. Forces opponent to standing position on first hit. Super flash is only after successful counter. And make it also a non jumpable command grab… with the counter coming out if the grab is unsuccessful.
The thing with stung gun is you could never do that change. If you did elbow into it on block in the corner he unwinnable for lots of the cast because you can’t avoid it anymore and you can’t anti air him out of it. Stun gun is designed in the exact way where it’s just a fuckin nightmare to fix.
Imma be real, i do not like a lot of these changes, you’re making a lot of the supers very samey by making almost all of them low-medium damage multiple bar supers, which also kind of ignores the reason WHY most people would pick those supers over the others. For example, Alex players would probably want a high damage nuke super in hyper bomb, but with your change it basically becomes another boomerang raid
Makoto does have a real confirm to SA1. St. Mp link st. Lk, cancel to dash punch, link SA1. Don't think that changes the tier tho lol. Also I think ibuki SA1 should theoretically be A. Nice to have SA1 to make ex dp safe on block and whiff. If you have all 3 bars, you can do it twice and still have a little meter left. Against most the cast, the chip out creates checkmate scenarios that are safe on block that gives you free wins. Also the amount of meter you get to work with is absurd and she has good ways to spend it Also: I think it was a mistake to put Akuma's supers so low since, at least you have raging demon and kkz regardless of which ones you pick. So if you don't find a chance to use SA3, for example, you can at least stock a decent super for later.
One thing I noticed with alex in the street fighter 3 line is that they kept giving him new moves in each entry, both command normals and special moves. my theory is that he was already considered weak in new gen and 2nd impact and capcom "buffed" him by giving him new moves instead of fixing those moves because they were too scared that if they did buff stuff like power bomb or elbow, he would become broken. Alex's issue is that his move set has no cohesion, it felt like they slapped whatever move that would try to fix him instead of making his specials better. I am alex main and he is my favorite character but good lord he has issues and i'm glad that he is finally good in sf5 currently. P.S I heard hes good in TvC
5:55 What's KKZ glitch? That means you can do a combo, into another combo with a super (but that combo is not landing any combo (but when he reset its still a combo)).
czcams.com/video/w-OB16KU7cQ/video.html go to minute 0:43 You'll understand better, It's a reset but KKZ is unparryable so after the jab if it was a fireball super like sa1 you should be able to parry it, or atleast parry the first hits till you land on the ground and be able to defend the rest of the super, so yea That means you can do a combo, into another combo with a super (but that combo is not landing any combo (but when he reset its still a combo.
@@Unit_00 she basically replaces proximity normals with her forward normals. Like any other characters close HP would be her 5HP, and their far HP is her 6HP.
i know this video is old but i'm glad content like this exists on YT. i haven't gotten into SF3 yet but videos like these are motivating as hell on top of being educational
True, also a cr. MK, also any plusframe normal. Really the fact that she can combo it on the ground from anything other than a cornered or midscreen stand fierce is a HUGE plus.
I had a good laugh at seeing Blue Nocturne get it's own tier. Also, Seichusen Godanzuki is probably my favorite super in the entire franchise, with Denjin being second and Oil Coaster on Hakkan being third.
I was surprised how middling Yang SA2 was. Normally I thought considering you stock all that meter for the best EX move in the game it would be pretty good not even considering the super itself. I also haven't seen people pick Seiei Enbu much, perhaps its because it contains some good general stuff and some really cool character specific stuff.
Yeah you see more SA2 purely for the multi bar and that alone makes it the best super in most matchups, but it feels weird putting SA2 high up then immediately saying "actually this super is mediocre and you should almost never do it" and for that reason it really doesn't FIT into this kind of tier list well at all. It should be higher than SA3 by popularity even though people don't use SA2 when they pick it.
just got to the Remy section "remmy supers are quite good", thinking that doesn't sound right, doesn't he have the worst super in the game. Looks at the tier list
Cool tier list, interesting to watch! Seraphic Wing is not parryable. Ibuki SA1 is easy to parry, there's actually two timings you can use, fastest possible (5) and slow (2). for fastest you're double tapping as if you're trying to parry each kunai pair individually. you can rapidly spam parry and it will usually work. for slow you can single tap each pair together. ibuki SA1 is always safe if you dont let ibuki start the super too high in the air or if you dont press buttons too fast which also causes her to gain altitude and throw more kunai. if the enemy starts to successfully parry, then just stop hitting buttons to end the super early and land sooner. Ibuki SA2 is a "meme" bc ppl dont know how to use it. its actually her super i choose over the others. the threat of a super throw is immense but due to "meme" status its a silent threat, like the opposite of "chun L.Fwd into SA2" where the opponent knows "i must block constantly to avoid the hit confirm", instead players are lulled into a false sense of security and let their guard down, allowing you to land it more easily. If the opponent realizes the threat then they're fighting against a high mobility rushdown grappler with nuke damage. the threat of getting caught by Ibuki SA2 can make ppl play too defensively, allowing you to land it; many times you dont even need to land SA2 once you've shown how deadly it can be. Since SA2 is a grab, when fighting opponents with high parry skill you can still present a persistent threat since grabs cannot be parried. Ibuki SA2 also happens very quickly, its just one quick hit, so for enemies that run down the clock you can always get the win even at the last second. Ibuki SA2 damage is already huge, but if you land a taunt first (then land SA2 without taking any damage after taunt) the damage is significantly increased. You can land the taunt raw (difficult) or combo into it off of her punch strings. eg: LP > MP > HP > Taunt or back+MP > HP > Taunt. (only works vs grounded, non short enemy) i find many opponents are shocked at how fast their life bar gets deleted, they dont know the threat of the bonus damage from taunt nor the threat of how having a super throw changes the way ibuki can be played. In a way, ibuki taunt into a later SA2 is a bit like makoto SA3; you've opened huge damage potential if you can land it without taking damage. I would put ibuki SA2 at S or A tier if you have amazing parry skill and are good at reading the opponent and have the knowledge of what can lead into it. its much harder to make use of than confirm supers like ken SA3, chun SA2 or akuma SA1, but if you know how to use it the threat is real. eg: ibuki can SA2 on reaction to makoto Hayate (dash punch) / chun SA2. Ibuki SA2 does not have the range of Hugo Gigas Breaker but the damage is similar. since ibuki is so fast her mobility can compensate for that lack of range. However, ibuki SA2 does not beat other superthrows, but does beat regular throws. you cannot jump ibuki SA2 after the superflash. The only Ibuki SA2 combos are j.LP > j.HP > SA2 (or) j.HP > SA2. however this does not work on Urien/Gill bc the "turn around status" doesnt occur from the jumping fierce. The fireball version of SA2 is the actual meme. it comes out very slowly and its difficult to combo into it unless its a dizzy juggle. i think its meant to be a "dan moment" where the failed version comes out but its junk. it does poor chip damage and isnt difficult to parry, but it is several hits.
@@Archedgar it’s pretty Mashable. It’s like Oro’s sun super. It’s really just “get the first hit and mash because the hits are so close together you’ll get something because of how parries work.”
I'll take chun's low forward into super over Yun's genei jin any day of the week. Chun is just "watch out for the low forward" Yun is watch out for literally every button because of the super priority.
You're underrating chun's houyoku damage and stun + post launch mixup. It absolutely pixel for pixel does top tier damage for a medium-long length super. Look at Alex SA2, Ryu/Gouki SA1, remy sa1/2, Yang sa2 for similar length meter supers and they all do WAY less damage lol
Alex actually does comparable. Hits for 8 less life point damage (40 less effective damage) with a slightly shorter bar. It’s really just the distance that separates them. If it started with ex slash elbow for the animation to be a foil to it, I’d say boomerang raid might actually be better in enough ways to be equal to houyoku sen. It’s invincible instead of just projectile immune, it’s frame one instead of frame three, and costs less.
I LOVE Super 3 Alex, its so satisfying to pull off, I just wish it took less frames to pull off, had 2 bars, and was able to be combo'd into more frequently.
If only Blue Nocturne worked like Diamon's Neo Max super in KoF 13. Diamon does a discrete parry motion upon input, and it only activates the freeze if he parries successfully. Diamon's Neo Max isn't even that good, nobody does a raw 3 bar in that game when you can just combo into them. It just goes to show how much of a meme Blue Nocturne really is, Poor Remy...
SA1 on Remy can combo into itself for style points in the corner, not an amazing use of bar but the option is there to finish people off. In any match up where people can pressure you close, Remy's SA2 is preferred for combos and also offers a really good meaty overhead combo after knockdowns too. Also Ryu SA2 is high tier against Dudley because your shimmy game gets much more threatening; forward throw into SA2 is hilarious to land. Just wanted to point that out that that's the specific matchup where SA2 is more threatening than SA1 I think.
Really liked this video, however there was a little detail that seems inconsistent to me. Basically wheter or not this list is considering the SAs in a vacuum or in consideration of the tools that synergize with it. You explain how Chun's SA2 is decent, but not really that crazy by itself. The thing that really pushes it to the next level is Chun's insane cr mk (I agree, cr mk late cancel has to be literally the one thing that makes her top, without it she drops quite a bit). However, when you talked about genei jin you didn't subtract points to it because of it's dependance on other tools (like Yun's command grab mostly). Genei jin by itself is not SS tier really. It gives you infinite juggle with ground attacks, speeds up every animation and gives way better frame advantage. Give this super to someone like Chun and it wouldn't be nearly as strong, as she lacks a command grab and a good way to launch the opponent, two of the main aspects of Yun's genei jin. So when you are making this tier list which one is it? The SAs in a vacuum or in consideration of the tools that synergize with it? imo, if it's in a vacuum nothing compares to denjin, it would be strong literally with any char. If it's in consideration of the tools that synergize with it, it has to be hoyokusen.
That's why I'd swap Genei Jin with Seiei Enbu. Seiei is strong, but not as busted, so Yun having it wouldn't be crazy. Meanwhile, Yang would definitely be better with Genei, but his kit isn't as oriented for juggles, so it wouldn't work as busted on him (the only juggles I could think of for Genei Yang are either spam 1 hit of Rekkas, or light DP).
@@nebiyuesayas5600 Ehh, I disagree. While unbalanced, Yun is an amazingly fun character to play and watch (to me). He's a deep char that requires a lot of skill to fully optimize. Swapping his genei jin like that would make for a more balanced game, but not necessarily for a more fun one. For me balance isn't the goal but just the means to an end (a better experience). The game has to be fun before it's balanced. So my approach would be to give Yun some minor nerfs (basically push him a tier back), and then buff the low and mid tiers.
@@Unit_00 that's completely fair. I do enjoy Yang (and Yun, although I don't play him much), and swapping Genei with Seiei is a bit extreme even for me, but it is an interesting option in regards to balance
@@Unit_00 you don’t yun. Because if you did you’d never say that. He’s the lamest character ever. It’s just a constant meter grind. That’s all yun does. It’s out doing people in an economy war and winning immediately. With out the execution he’s probably the single lamest character in the game.
@@Neogears1312 I play more or less every char in the game and the ones I practice the most are urien, yun and oro. I have my own opinion, I like playing and seeing others play yun.
i'm confused, you said chun-li needed meter (when talking about kikosho) but then you say her ex moves are sh*ty (tensei ranka)... did I hear that right?
Yeah she needs meter for supers. Her wincon is sa2 (or sa1) which means until she has a super stocked she doesn't have a good wincon, not to mention that if she picks sa3 she doesn't have a wincon with OR without meter.
Forgot to mention this but Alex SA2 is one of the few invincible supers in the game. For that little meter I’d say it’s at least pretty good for an EX super. I generally think Ibuki might have the worst supers because they’re all generally pretty mediocre with limited use where at best you get some burst damage and no EX’s with her SA3 and occasional chip with sa1. Ibuki just lacks a lot of appliances for her meter options that even Alex has some good ex’s and s decent sa2.
Fantastic detailed summary I agree with the majority of your list. Have you played the 4rd arrange hack of 3s? they changed a bunch of stuff and even added new SAs. A tier of that version would be very fascinating!
I just watched him use Yagyou Dama in a tournament and I get what he means. The unblockable setups combined with the jumps are brutal. If you don't exploit its properties it's just a really easy parry.
40:44 I think that was the intended combo for it but the scaling for H.T.hook to SA2 is GOD AWFUL. SA2 can also grab outta Akumas teleport. near useless fact but funny 48:51 there is also the fact that unlike oro and mak, the opponent can actually avoid you because lol Q 1:00:28 in this memes defence (and maybe me being a bad player) 12 is the best thing about 12. His mobility and his air attacks are great and they tend to keep him in the game. Once they use X.copy, 12 isn't zipping around the screen anymore so I just tend to fight him then.
i think Q's SA3 is an interesting thing because i think it's the only command grab i've seen in a fighting game that has the input of QCF + button; especially as someone whose hands disagree with what their brain tells them to do even when calm, it's unique to upkeep pressure with it since it doesn't have the encumbering nature of doing a 360, 720 or even a half-circle back from walking forward & doing normals by all means it isn't anything like SA2 which instant kills whatever eats it and it has a lot of weird shit around it (like being a second command grab on a character that already has one without crazy unique properties unlike ultra throw which can be big tool overlap for Q) but i think its existence is fully justified
@@pachicore yeah i hadn't played guilty gear when i wrote that but slayer's grab is cool. i'd say it might be a simple input so you can easily go into it from his dash cancels but sol's wild throw has been DP>K since 2000 so what do i know lol
Hey baf cool video, unrelated but do you have any tips on how to stop people from just charging meter? Specifically Chun it's really hard to approach her to stop that.
hey I know it's more editing work, but if you do more things like this in the future, it'd be nice to have some footage of the super as you talk about it!
Gill's Seraphic wing cannot be parried (one of the only 2 moves innthe game you can't parry- Akuma has the other super). So if he catches you jumping with it, you are dead.
I'd actually argue sa2 chun li is S just because it's speed lets you punish a lot of things no one else can. The range and speed allow you to threaten from half screen. Combined with its bar even arguing that chun's confirm is what makes it good, with out it you have the most versatile reversal options in the game that keeps you from being able to do anything to challenge their footsies.
In case anyone doesn't know which are which based on the number alone.
Akuma SAI- Messatsu-Gouhadou
SAII- Messatsu-Goushoryu
SAIII- Messatsu-Gourasen
Alex SAI- Hyper Bomb
SAII- Boomerang Raid
SAIII- Stun Gun Headbutt
Chun-li SAI- Kikou-Shou
SAII- Houyoku-Sen
SAIII- Tensei-Ranka
Dudley SAI- Rocket Uppercut
SAII- Rolling Thunder
SAIII- Corkscrew Blow
Elena SAI- Spinning Beat
SAII- Brave Dance
SAIII- Healing
Hugo SAI- Gigas Breaker
SAII- Megaton Press
SAIII- Hammer Frenzy
Ibuki SAI- Kasumi-Suzaku
SAII- Yoroi-Doushi
SAIII- Yami-Shigure
Ken SAI- Shoryu-Reppa
SAII- Shinryu-Ken
SAIII- Shippu-Jinrai-Kyaku
Makoto SAI- Seichusen-Godanzuki
SAII- Abare-Tosanami
SAIII- Tanden-Renki
Necro SAI- Magnetic Storm
SAII- Slam Dance
SAIII- Electric Snake
Oro SAI- Kishin-Riki
SAII- Yagyou-Dama
SAIII- Tengu-Stone
Q SAI- Critical Combo Attack
SAII- Deadly Double Combination
SAIII- Total Destruction :)
Remy SAI- Light of Justice
SAII- Supreme Rising Rage Flash
SAIII- Blue Nocturne
Ryu SAI- Shinkuu-Hadou-Ken
SAII- Shin-Shoryu-Ken
SAIII- Denjin-Hadou-Ken
Sean SAI- Hadou-Burst
SAII- Shoryu-Cannon
SAIII- Hyper-Tornado
Twelve SAI- X.N.D.L.
SAII- X.F.L.A.T.
SAIII- X.C.O.P.Y.
Urien SAI- Tyrant Slaughter
SAII- Temporal Thunder
SAII- Aegis Reflector
Yang SAI- Raishin-Mahhaken
SAII- Tenshin-Senkyutai
SAIII- Seiei-Enbu
Yun SAI- You-Hou
SAII- Sourai-Rengeki
SAII Genei-Jin
Probably some keywords would help too
Ok, so let me explain some of these off the top of my head:
Akuma
I: Messatsu-Gouhadou (A powered up hadouken, simple as that.)
II: Messatsu-Goushoryu (Basically just Shoryu-Reppa [Ken's SAI])
III: Messatsu-Gourasen (A upward moving hurricane kick.)
Chun-Li:
I: Kikou-Shou (Big ball of energy in front of Chun)
II: Houyoku-Sen (The Diego parry super [Moment #37] however, while it is parryable, it's still one of the best in the game)
III: Tensei-Ranka (A dropkick super)
Dudley:
I: Rocket Uppercut (A big, rising uppercut)
II: Rolling Thunder (Again, similar to Shoryu-Reppa)
III: Corkscrew Blow (A fast, forward moving punch)
Ken:
I: Shoryu-Reppa (3 consecutive uppercuts in a row, moving forward)
II: Shinryu-Ken (A big flaming uppercut similar to Dudley's Rocket Uppercut [SAI])
III: Shippu-Jinrai-Kyaku (One of the better supers, a consecutive five kicks followed up by a rising hurricane kick.)
Makoto:
I: Seichusen-Godanzuki (A low punch, followed up by 3 consectutive hits, and a final high punch that sends the opponent flying out of the screen.)
II: Abare-Tosanami (Makoto flies to one side of the screen, then immediately comes down with a flurry of kicks. If you execute it right, you can perform a touch of death combo.)
III: Tanden-Renki (Powers up Makoto's damage)
Ryu:
I: Shinkuu-Hadou-Ken (A powered up Hadoken similar to Akuma's SAI)
II: Shin-Shoryu-Ken (One of his most famous supers, one big uppercut that sends both Ryu and his opponent flying)
III: Denjin-Hadou-Ken (Like SAI, but you can charge it to increase it's power)
Urien:
III: Aegis Reflector (One of his most infamous supers, a wall of electricity that can be used to setup left-right unblockables)
Yun:
III: Genei-Jin (One of the most horrifying supers in the game, a custom-combo type system which allows him to cancel most of his moves.)
(Announcer when someone chooses Remy on the CSS): Yeah, that makes sense.
(Announcer when the same person chooses Blue Nocturne): Never mind.
Fighting games need to instead of patching bad characters add voice lines if the announcer legitimately startle that you picked them.
“Yo who the fuck picks Remy?!”
>picking twelve or Sean
"Yeah."
(Announcer when you pick Chun and STILL lose): YOU need more practice.
Picks Chun: "yeah, that makes-"
Locks in SA3: "no, that doesn't make sense!"
Gee, I wonder where Blue Nocturne is going to sit.
Up there with Gill for the cool name :))
Akuma SA3; you can red fireball meaty when it would chip kill, and then SA3 so they have to off screen parry the fireball
That's a pretty funny setup lol
the devil: bro, want an internship?
I saw that one on Twitter, pretty funny.
Bro I gotta try this that sounds so goofy
Man, Alex is like the most cursed SF character ever. He's almost always bad, doesn't have a real command grab super, his best super isn't even good for the super itself, and most people probably don't even realize he's the main character in SF3.
The character, himself, is really cool imo. So it's real damn shame.
Watch him be top tier in sf6
He’s good in SFV rn. I’ve been thinking he was cool ever since Sf3. I love his design and how he just nonchalantly got kidnapped in the lore for shadaloo testing. It feels nostalgic beating the shit out of gill with him in both games in a badass way. (With a power bomb)
Thats what made Capcom literally hide the guy for years until V. Fans really chewed him up and spat him out due to being so mediocre and having such an incongruent moveset.
He was pretty good in TvC, so he had that for a while.
Oh my fucking god, i'm only 7 seconds into the video and i'm already losing my damn shit laughing at the blue nocturne tier
Blue nocturne is great after a red parry. Style points.
You might've alluded to this, but Hugo can actually confirm super art 3 from 2 crouching jabs. I feel it's important to mention that he has a confirm move that's faster than 17 frames
Blue Nocturne is the ultimate disrespect. You’re telling your opponent that you don’t need your super, nor even your EX moves, to win.
Or even a half-decent character
Remy is the only one character in the game who has a taunt that does nothing except literally taunting. The character itself is the ultimate disrespect 😂
@@pieth68 I’m pretty sure his taunt gives him more stun on his moves. Not that it matters, since he will never stun the opponent ever.
@@pieth68 his taunt increases his stun output. But he never stuns people and the taunt itself is basically asking the opponent to hit you with a full jump in.
@@pieth68
Actually there is one character with a taunt that does nothing. And it's Makoto. (Not her normal taunt)
"Remy's supers are quite good."
*eyes Blue Nocturne tier and waits for the fun*
One additional thing that makes Akuma SA2 a bit more useful than 3 is its fast startup, meaning you can combo out of an early divekick and get the full super connect. There's footage of Jiro using it against low health characters both for this reason and to punish otherwise safe rekkas from Yang
The reset potential of SA3 generally out classes this IMO.
@@Neogears1312 A fair point if you're looking for easy damage, but the damage increase from SA3 off a jab reset is negligible compared to ending a combo with shoryu cancelled into SA1 or even SA2, and the reset isn't even guaranteed, with a substantial price to pay if it does get parried.
The SS for the tier with Gill's super(s) stands for "stick smashing"
Tbh
Yang's Seiei-Enbu is probably the super I feel the most bad about in the game. It's a super that's basically never picked; but not because the super itself is bad. It's actually really, really GOOD. It's just that Yang's EXes are too valuable to give up. So most people just use SA2 for lots of EXes.
It's a shame, because SA3 really is very cool and fun on the rare occasion it's seen.
I say this a lot bu seiei enbu is probably a top 10 super in a vacuum because it lets anyone open someone up for free and or get good damage all while being safe. The problem is it’s on Yang, the one character in the entire game that benefits from having this super the least out any character. 12 would be a menace with this, ryu would be a nightmare and Dudley would be unstoppable. But it’s on the guy who did all of this with his base kit perfectly and has the best Ex move in the game.
I use Seiei Enbu against Urien and Hugo, because I can.
It's good but not amazing and makes yang's gameplay too linear. It's totally viable on its own but the versatility of ex slashes and having a reversal makes sa2 better.
57:53 I play as Twelve more often these days, just for the sake of changing the pace and throwing opponents off. One of the most underutilized aspects of Twelve's SA1 is the invincibility it gives his upper body. If timed well, it will let you dodge and counter projectile Super Arts like Ryu's Shinkuu and Denjin Hadoukens, Akuma's standing Messatsu Gou Hadou, Sean's Hadou Burst, etc. It will also go through Urien's Aegis Reflector (!), Oro's Yagyou Dama, Chun-Li's Kikosho at certain distances, and beat out Necro's Electric Snake. It can also counter Remy's Light of Justice, but you need to be mid-range and trigger it before the second wave of projectiles come out. In short, it can be used as a counter Super Art in certain matchups. Anyone who jokes that XCOPY is his best Super hasn't spent enough time experimenting with SA1.
man one thing I wish they kept from 3S is like, different super stocks and super bar lengths
Yeah its certainly interesting to balance around. I'm shocked it's pretty much just a 3S thing. You get to choose how complex you want your meter to be, between super go brrr (Chun, Akuma and most of the install supers like Genei-Jin), a moderate amount of balance between EX and Super (Ryu fireball supers, Ken's SA1 and 3, Makoto SA1 and 2), or all EX, all the time (Alex SA2, Yang SA2, Sean SA1 lol I guess, etc). Imagine SF4 with this balance style instead of the split meter. Like, different lengths and having Super, U1, and U2 as different lengths along with EX and FADC. Hell, Akuma could get back his KKZ or something.
Baf did a video on sf5 prerelease footage, we almost had differing meter lengths in it
This would be great, but it's reliant on the system allowing for it. For example: if we had multiple CAs in SFV, it could work there because CAs are mostly combo enders, not too much utility.
In a game like SF4, I don't know that it would work. If we say that Ultras were supers for the sake of argument, that's kind of broken. Supers with high amounts of meter would be strong just because meter is strong in that game, even if the super was shitty. Plus, some characters are reliant on Ultra for certain matchups or scenarios, and if those Ultras don't have lots of meter, they're put in a bad position because meter is universaly good.
I mean they kinda did with VT? I think it’s more that they probably think 3S supers are “failed” because most characters only have one viable super, so the choice doesn’t *really* matter
Im down for different bar length but i think being able to stock multiple supers is a bit too good
Waiting for the characters you play is like sitting through graduation, waiting for your friends name to get called.
Yes yes yes yes yes, this is an amazing idea for a video, time to watch this at 1 am!!
Baf's voice has lulled me to sleep at 1 AM many times. It's so relaxing.
Blue Nocturne sitting outside the tier list makes me wonder if theres a big-brain Japanese player that uses it somwhere in the world
It's not outside the tier list, it's just so bad it has its own tier. It's just doodoo
you need a small brain to not realize that the other 2 supers are better in every way
maybe?
0 x 100 = 0.
@@MakoShiruba yeah but what does that have to do with blue nocturne?
An hour of Bafael talking about something very specific in SF3, what a treat.
I find it amusing that top tier Chun-Li has one SA in [S] and another in [D].
iirc remy SA1 doesn't combo sometimes vs crouching opponents, thus making SA2 the preferred choice by strong remys (Dagger G, Pierrot, etc)
EDIT: also SA1 isn't an actual reversal
EDIT 2: you pointed out the first edit later in the vid lmaoo
The good thing about sa1 is that’s it’s safe on block and parry and only slightly unsafe on red. Sa1 is great in those matchups like oro and twins where u need a kara flash kick to combo off neutral throw in the corner. But generally use SA2 all the time just cuz more meter and faster and more damage.
For what it’s worth, SA3 Alex can use it raw against a fireball and punish at long range. Only tested against Shotos myself.
I like it when tier lists start from the shittier stuff to the stronger stuff
Best thing about it is that he didn't even intentionally arrange it that way, he just sorted it through their names
I guess I'm one of those rare Elena Healing players. I just feel like if you are going to play a low tier, you might as well play them with the one thing they can do that no one else can; plus you can get similar damage from EX combos that you would from Brave Dance, so I feel like all I'm really losing going with Healing is I'm not getting as much meter for EX moves - which, granted, Elena needs for even basic combos.
I wouldn't call elena low tier exactly lol
@@Unit_00 It's debatable whether she's at the top of the bottom tier or the very bottom of the mid tier.
Either way, not a good place lol
Elena is for sure low tier, but I don’t think ex spin scythe combos are a consistent enough to replace sa2
@@sfbloodsister "for sure" lmao
@@sfbloodsister So, for one, that's just a matter of me mastering execution. If it's not consistent enough, that's on me. Meanwhile, Brave Dance will just DROP for no apparent reason. It's not often, but it has happened before when I really needed it not to, and at least if I drop an EX combo there's a good chance my opponent won't be able to punish me for that drop. Anyone can punish a Brave Dance where the first hit connects but the rest don't.
For two, I consider Brave Dance just an easier version of an option I already have. It's not going to make my opponent play any differently. I can't run any timer scams with it. I can't activate Brave Dance and then cancel it when I know my opponent is gonna try to punish it, allowing me to get my own punish in. Brave Dance doesn't suddenly make tick throws and kara throws WAY more scary, which itself makes her high/low game more scary. Healing, to me, adds a lot more layers to Elena's gameplan and makes her other options more scary as a result.
Q's hand looks like sean got a sick haircut
Seriously could listen to you for hours
This is *sick* !
Thank you Baf! This is super helpful to me and my husband (he mains Remy, I play Oro). I play Tekken (used to compete in T2-T4 but just rinky dink local stuff) but I still play 3S, it's such a gorgeous timeless game.
I love the enthusiasm you still have after all these years. Your videos have truly upped my game. Much love and stay well!
kkz has an extra utility by being grab invincible which gives it the niche of beating all grabs and grab invincible moves which makes it more desirable than demon in like 4 situations
Interesting tier list, I learned a good bit about the supers. Personally, I'd make some adjustments to most of the supers, so I thought I'd list them here.
Alex SA1: more range, improve startup so that you can't jump out of it, change it to a short 3 bar super (lower the damage accordingly). Also, let him confirm it from any flash chop.
Alex SA2: lower the pushback on block, give it some suction on hit so it won't fall out..
Alex SA3: give him invincibility on the way down.
*Alex in general needs some changes. Mostly, he needs better confirms into meterless specials (why do EX Elbow and Knee have startup hits, but not meterless?)*
Sean SA1: give it more hits (keep the weird anti-fireball properties, plus more parries/chip).
Sean SA2: more range, give it a 3rd DP for more damage (keep the mashing for the last dp).
Sean SA3: make it a medium 2 bar super, also let it combo properly from DP.
*Sean did deserve a nerf from 2I, but not this badly. Make him a normal shoto with a unique moveset, instead of bootleg Ken.*
Ibuki SA1: N/A
Ibuki SA2: give it more ranges, maybe let it confirm from any heavy instead of just backturn.
Ibuki SA3: make it 3 short bars, lower the damage a tad bit, and give it an EX version.
*Ibuki's change from 2I to 3S is what Sean should have gotten. I think she's fine besides the supers (which also are good, but I'd still change them). As an aside, I also would not mind if her removed 2I super returned, albeit very balanced.*
Necro SA1: make it 3 short bars
Necro SA2: N/A
Necro SA3: N/A
*My man Necro is fun, and he's not terrible, but he definitely needs some love. It's funny that Necro, the prototype, is better than Twelve, the final product.*
Urien SA1: make it a short 3 bar super, but don't change the damage
Urien SA2: make it chargeable like Denjin (if you can't already).
Urien SA3: no changes.
*Urien is actually surprising well balanced considering how good he is. The only problem is he requires 1000 IQ to play, but I play Ryu in every game, so I'm fine with that.*
Akuma SA1: no changes.
Akuma SA2: lower the damage, but make it a 3 bar super. Also, it should be his best juggle super.
Akuma SA3: more confirms, also give him a reason to use the air version.
Akuma KKZ: N/A
Akuma RD: no changes.
*I think Akuma should have supers with different amounts of bars, but keep the total length the same. Also, give him EX moves (he doesn't need it, but it wouldn't hurt).*
Gill: *besides not knowing enough, Gill would have to be rebalanced to even bother changing his supers, so I decided not to try.*
Remy SA1: N/A
Remy SA2: make it juggle properly, possibly change it to a short 3 bar super
Remy SA3: no. Save it for a better character and give Remy a different super.
*Remy in general has some good stuff, but a lot of the small things are just done terribly. He doesn't need changes to his specials (besides Cold Blue Kick), but he absolutely needs changes to his normals and system stuff.*
Q SA1: no changes.
Q SA2: no changes.
Q SA3: N/A
*Q, again, is like Remy: some of his stuff is nice, but it just feels like a mess. I hope Q and G are the same, because making Q more like G would be a godsend for Q.*
Chun-Li SA1: make it 3 short bars Ike Necro).
Chun-Li SA2: make it a long 1 bar super (the damage is fine since you can juggle out of it). Also, cut the range so it's not as scary.
Chun-Li SA3: improve the anti-air function, give it a damage buff, let it confirm from low forward.
*I actually think Chun is mostly fine. Her low forward confirm is nuts, and SA2 is too strong, but the rest of her kit actually seems alright by me. I'd actually keep the low forward confirm, since the changes to her super would mostly balance her. Also, give her a reason to use EX.*
Makoto SA1: no changes.
Makoto SA2: instead of different angles, just make it track the opponent. Keep everything else as is.
Makoto SA3: let her block, but make it so she takes bonus damage when hit.
*If Urien is 1000 IQ, Makoto is a 500 IQ character. She's only slightly weaker, but she's much easier to play compared to him. I think she's fine, although I would still adjust 1 or 2 things.*
Twelve SA1: make it 3 bars, keep the damage the same.
Twelve SA2: give it more damage, and make it easier to confirm. Keep it as a 1 bar super.
Twelve SA3: just give him a different super-the idea is cool, but in practice it's worse than Remy's SA3 (the damage is nice, but why not just play that character?)
*Twelve is functional only because he's not buggy. He's an airdasher in a non-airdash game, which makes him unique here, but if Sean hadn't been so good in 2I, I'd say Twelve makes Sean look good.*
Ryu SA1: no changes.
Ryu SA2: give the startup hit more range.
Ryu SA3: I'd actually shorten the bar slightly, but not as short as a 3 bar super.
*Ryu is, as usual, well balanced. If it were up to me, I'd give him Shinku Tatsu as a Super (and probably make Denjin the EX version of Shinku), but otherwise I'd only make minor changes to him.*
Oro SA1: N/A
Oro SA2: no changes.
Oro SA3: no changes.
*Baf, Oro is the other 1000 IQ character. I don't have 1000 IQ, I'm average at best, and I like you too much to risk discussing Oro (mostly because I could easily say something too dumb), so all I'm going to say is this: consider making him a motion character. I wouldn't immediately do it, and I wouldn't change his playstyle at all, but I'd consider making his inputs easier.*
Dudley SA1: no changes.
Dudley SA2: make it 2 bars.
Dudley SA3: no changes.
*Again, Dudley is a character whos actually decently balanced despite being top tier. I would make his motions easier (I'd actually make 99% of the motions easier), but otherwise I'd have to do research before touching Dudley too much.*
Elena SA1: make it juggle properly, maybe a slight damage buff.
Elena SA2: no changes.
Elena SA3: no changes.
*I actually think Elena's supers are fine, it's her kit that's kinda mediocre. Her meterless moves are better than Alex and Sean, but like them, she's too reliant on EX to perform decent combos. Most of my changes to Elena would give her better combo capability.*
Hugo SA1: a smidge more range on startup.
Hugo SA2: N/A.
Hugo SA3: no changes.
*Hugo's in a similar state to Elena: its not that his kit is terrible, it's that everyone else's kits are better. He's not reliant on EX like Elena, but his combo capability isn't great. Elena's easy to buff, but Hugo is difficult (as you said in the Omega Hugo video: you can't give Hugo a cancelable medium).*
Ken SA1: make it a short 3 bar super, make it juggle better.
Ken SA2: give it a better startup, lower the damage slightly, and make it a medium 2 bar super.
Ken SA3: make it a short 2 bar super, mayne buff the damage.
*Ken’s balance isn't terrible, but it could be better. He has some problems when lacking EX (why is any move in this franchise minus on hit wtf), and super wise, SAIII basically picks itself. I'd remove a bar, but otherwise I'd mostly just buff his other supers.*
Yun SA1: No changes.
Yun SA2: Slightly longer bars.
Yang SA1: more confirms, increased damage, more consistent in juggles (possibly a 2nd bar).
Yang SA2: more damage, make it a short 3 bar super.
*I wanna talk about Yun and Yang for a sec. As we know, Genei Jin is busted strong. But, Seiei Enbu is actually pretty good. Now, we could change Genei, but I wanna suggest something else-a switch.*
*The supers themselves are unchanged, but Yun now gets Seiei Enbu, while Yang gets Genei Jin. Now, I'd wanna see this in action, but it's possible this alone would lower Yun enough without destroying him, while buffing Yang without making him broken.*
Notes:
-N/A means idk enough to change it.
-All of these changes assume we only change the supers, but most of them would also apply if we rebalanced the whole game (which is why I also put my thoughts for each character).
-I'm average at 3S, and this is just after watching the video, so take these as my initial suggestions rather than my final ones.
-I mainly play SA1 Ryu, but I have tried out a few other characters (SA2 Yang, SA2 Elena, and SA1 Sean in particular will likely be my secondary characters).
-Finally, for my suggestions, I didn't want to remove a super for most of them. I'll allow it for Remy and Twelve's SA3s, and switching Genei and Seiei doesn't count. I say thus because, if 3S were getting a rebalance, I would actually consider either merging some supers and adding new ones, or else just giving everyone an SA4.
Feel free to comment your thoughts, and again, great vid as always Baf :D
Hugo sa2: make it invincible on startup so it can beat jumpins, but also make it parryable like Alex anti air grab so it will lose to air parries
I think Remy's Blue Nocturne would be better if it's a ranbu SA instead of counter hit SA.
Here’ my take on fixing Remy Blue Nocturne: Max two bars. Forces opponent to standing position on first hit.
Super flash is only after successful counter.
And make it also a non jumpable command grab… with the counter coming out if the grab is unsuccessful.
The thing with stung gun is you could never do that change. If you did elbow into it on block in the corner he unwinnable for lots of the cast because you can’t avoid it anymore and you can’t anti air him out of it. Stun gun is designed in the exact way where it’s just a fuckin nightmare to fix.
Imma be real, i do not like a lot of these changes, you’re making a lot of the supers very samey by making almost all of them low-medium damage multiple bar supers, which also kind of ignores the reason WHY most people would pick those supers over the others. For example, Alex players would probably want a high damage nuke super in hyper bomb, but with your change it basically becomes another boomerang raid
Makoto does have a real confirm to SA1. St. Mp link st. Lk, cancel to dash punch, link SA1. Don't think that changes the tier tho lol. Also I think ibuki SA1 should theoretically be A. Nice to have SA1 to make ex dp safe on block and whiff. If you have all 3 bars, you can do it twice and still have a little meter left. Against most the cast, the chip out creates checkmate scenarios that are safe on block that gives you free wins. Also the amount of meter you get to work with is absurd and she has good ways to spend it
Also: I think it was a mistake to put Akuma's supers so low since, at least you have raging demon and kkz regardless of which ones you pick. So if you don't find a chance to use SA3, for example, you can at least stock a decent super for later.
just st MP is sufficient for a confirm
One thing I noticed with alex in the street fighter 3 line is that they kept giving him new moves in each entry, both command normals and special moves. my theory is that he was already considered weak in new gen and 2nd impact and capcom "buffed" him by giving him new moves instead of fixing those moves because they were too scared that if they did buff stuff like power bomb or elbow, he would become broken. Alex's issue is that his move set has no cohesion, it felt like they slapped whatever move that would try to fix him instead of making his specials better. I am alex main and he is my favorite character but good lord he has issues and i'm glad that he is finally good in sf5 currently. P.S I heard hes good in TvC
5:55 What's KKZ glitch? That means you can do a combo, into another combo with a super (but that combo is not landing any combo (but when he reset its still a combo)).
Did you just quote the TAC glitch explanation by Chris hu LOL
@@Zman7981 DHC Glitch. TAC infinites are totally different
@@sobosswagner it's a Chris hu reference fam
czcams.com/video/w-OB16KU7cQ/video.html go to minute 0:43 You'll understand better, It's a reset but KKZ is unparryable so after the jab if it was a fireball super like sa1 you should be able to parry it, or atleast parry the first hits till you land on the ground and be able to defend the rest of the super, so yea That means you can do a combo, into another combo with a super (but that combo is not landing any combo (but when he reset its still a combo.
KKZ's first hit is unparryable, but it is blockable, and since you can't air block, there you go, unblockable.
1 hr?! thanks for this, Baf-sensei. Really needed something to unwind with today.
25:25 The rare BafLaf.
that honest “is this thing on?” is probably the best intro I’ve heard in youtube lmao
"For what it's worth" counter when
This is the kind of content I’ve really wanted. I love when you just talk about the game! Thank you 🙏
38:32 Tanden Renki does 1.6x damage. You can also do karakusa > clHP xx SA3 > crMP xx HP Hyate, which deals good damage and leads to mixup
makoto doesn't have a close HP, it's just stand HP. Actually now that I think about it makoto doesn't have a single proximity normal
@@Unit_00 she basically replaces proximity normals with her forward normals. Like any other characters close HP would be her 5HP, and their far HP is her 6HP.
@@Unit_00 lol as a shoto player im so used to writing clHP instead of just HP
@@Unit_00 Dudley also doesn’t have Proximity normals.
@@jk844100 that's true and also is hella off topic xD
I mean, never said she was the only one with that characteristic.
i know this video is old but i'm glad content like this exists on YT. i haven't gotten into SF3 yet but videos like these are motivating as hell on top of being educational
Surprised you havent done this video yet, seems right up your alley
cr lp x2 is a hitconfirm for Makoto SA1, kinda underrated imo.
also she can confirm SA1 with a single stand mp
True, also a cr. MK, also any plusframe normal. Really the fact that she can combo it on the ground from anything other than a cornered or midscreen stand fierce is a HUGE plus.
24:02 he actually did gill’s SA 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 I love this channel
I saw the thumbnail and thought there was a great joke at yuns expense.
I had a good laugh at seeing Blue Nocturne get it's own tier.
Also, Seichusen Godanzuki is probably my favorite super in the entire franchise, with Denjin being second and Oil Coaster on Hakkan being third.
Oh god Oil Coaster is so funny but fuck Hakan just makes my brain hurt. My friend plays Hakan when we play USF4
23 minutes into the video just realized blue nocturne has its own tier😭😭😭
I was surprised how middling Yang SA2 was. Normally I thought considering you stock all that meter for the best EX move in the game it would be pretty good not even considering the super itself. I also haven't seen people pick Seiei Enbu much, perhaps its because it contains some good general stuff and some really cool character specific stuff.
Yeah you see more SA2 purely for the multi bar and that alone makes it the best super in most matchups, but it feels weird putting SA2 high up then immediately saying "actually this super is mediocre and you should almost never do it" and for that reason it really doesn't FIT into this kind of tier list well at all. It should be higher than SA3 by popularity even though people don't use SA2 when they pick it.
@@Bafael Even Though You Ranked Yang's SA1 Lower, I like it better. I actually beat a Urien Player with it. I think...
just got to the Remy section "remmy supers are quite good", thinking that doesn't sound right, doesn't he have the worst super in the game. Looks at the tier list
This needed to be made thank you
Cool tier list, interesting to watch!
Seraphic Wing is not parryable.
Ibuki SA1 is easy to parry, there's actually two timings you can use, fastest possible (5) and slow (2).
for fastest you're double tapping as if you're trying to parry each kunai pair individually. you can rapidly spam parry and it will usually work.
for slow you can single tap each pair together.
ibuki SA1 is always safe if you dont let ibuki start the super too high in the air or if you dont press buttons too fast which also causes her to gain altitude and throw more kunai.
if the enemy starts to successfully parry, then just stop hitting buttons to end the super early and land sooner.
Ibuki SA2 is a "meme" bc ppl dont know how to use it. its actually her super i choose over the others.
the threat of a super throw is immense but due to "meme" status its a silent threat, like the opposite of "chun L.Fwd into SA2" where the opponent knows "i must block constantly to avoid the hit confirm", instead players are lulled into a false sense of security and let their guard down, allowing you to land it more easily.
If the opponent realizes the threat then they're fighting against a high mobility rushdown grappler with nuke damage.
the threat of getting caught by Ibuki SA2 can make ppl play too defensively, allowing you to land it; many times you dont even need to land SA2 once you've shown how deadly it can be.
Since SA2 is a grab, when fighting opponents with high parry skill you can still present a persistent threat since grabs cannot be parried.
Ibuki SA2 also happens very quickly, its just one quick hit, so for enemies that run down the clock you can always get the win even at the last second.
Ibuki SA2 damage is already huge, but if you land a taunt first (then land SA2 without taking any damage after taunt) the damage is significantly increased.
You can land the taunt raw (difficult) or combo into it off of her punch strings. eg: LP > MP > HP > Taunt or back+MP > HP > Taunt. (only works vs grounded, non short enemy)
i find many opponents are shocked at how fast their life bar gets deleted, they dont know the threat of the bonus damage from taunt nor the threat of how having a super throw changes the way ibuki can be played.
In a way, ibuki taunt into a later SA2 is a bit like makoto SA3; you've opened huge damage potential if you can land it without taking damage.
I would put ibuki SA2 at S or A tier if you have amazing parry skill and are good at reading the opponent and have the knowledge of what can lead into it.
its much harder to make use of than confirm supers like ken SA3, chun SA2 or akuma SA1, but if you know how to use it the threat is real.
eg: ibuki can SA2 on reaction to makoto Hayate (dash punch) / chun SA2.
Ibuki SA2 does not have the range of Hugo Gigas Breaker but the damage is similar. since ibuki is so fast her mobility can compensate for that lack of range.
However, ibuki SA2 does not beat other superthrows, but does beat regular throws. you cannot jump ibuki SA2 after the superflash.
The only Ibuki SA2 combos are j.LP > j.HP > SA2 (or) j.HP > SA2. however this does not work on Urien/Gill bc the "turn around status" doesnt occur from the jumping fierce.
The fireball version of SA2 is the actual meme. it comes out very slowly and its difficult to combo into it unless its a dizzy juggle. i think its meant to be a "dan moment" where the failed version comes out but its junk. it does poor chip damage and isnt difficult to parry, but it is several hits.
"It's cool it looks like a rasengan A tier tbh" is a much better argument if I am being honest.
" *I CAN PARRY IBUKI SA1 SO EASY. SRSLY.* "
Ok bro, if you say so.
@@Archedgar for some reason 1 input parries lik 3 shurikens, so you only need to press forward a few times. Its not like Chun lis sa2
@@Archedgar it’s pretty Mashable. It’s like Oro’s sun super. It’s really just “get the first hit and mash because the hits are so close together you’ll get something because of how parries work.”
thank you so much, i was just thinking about this
Any new Bafael vid still is and always will be an insta watch for me
I like how blue nocturne is so bad it has it's own tier.
This isn't scripted? You're still very erudite and succinct here, very good at expressing your thoughts.
Props for this man! Just wanna add that you can medium jump kick into Ibuki’s yoroi doushi. Always catches people off guard. It’s wild.
Oh can you do the same with USF4 Ultras?
Please
And v triggers in sfv while you're at it
I'll take chun's low forward into super over Yun's genei jin any day of the week. Chun is just "watch out for the low forward" Yun is watch out for literally every button because of the super priority.
i love how blue nocturne just has its own category
Damn the knowledge here is crazy. Nice video
You're underrating chun's houyoku damage and stun + post launch mixup. It absolutely pixel for pixel does top tier damage for a medium-long length super. Look at Alex SA2, Ryu/Gouki SA1, remy sa1/2, Yang sa2 for similar length meter supers and they all do WAY less damage lol
Alex actually does comparable. Hits for 8 less life point damage (40 less effective damage) with a slightly shorter bar. It’s really just the distance that separates them. If it started with ex slash elbow for the animation to be a foil to it, I’d say boomerang raid might actually be better in enough ways to be equal to houyoku sen. It’s invincible instead of just projectile immune, it’s frame one instead of frame three, and costs less.
This is the ONLY tier list I like
I LOVE Super 3 Alex, its so satisfying to pull off, I just wish it took less frames to pull off, had 2 bars, and was able to be combo'd into more frequently.
ninjas in the club doing aegis reflector
If only Blue Nocturne worked like Diamon's Neo Max super in KoF 13.
Diamon does a discrete parry motion upon input, and it only activates the freeze if he parries successfully.
Diamon's Neo Max isn't even that good, nobody does a raw 3 bar in that game when you can just combo into them. It just goes to show how much of a meme Blue Nocturne really is, Poor Remy...
Is it kind of like Anji’s parry super in Strive?
@@happycamperds9917 pretty much, I don't play strive but from the general info I found on the super it's mostly the same
Needs to work vs air opponents to ever have a chance at being decent.
Daimon*
SA1 on Remy can combo into itself for style points in the corner, not an amazing use of bar but the option is there to finish people off. In any match up where people can pressure you close, Remy's SA2 is preferred for combos and also offers a really good meaty overhead combo after knockdowns too.
Also Ryu SA2 is high tier against Dudley because your shimmy game gets much more threatening; forward throw into SA2 is hilarious to land. Just wanted to point that out that that's the specific matchup where SA2 is more threatening than SA1 I think.
Dudley can quickstand to avoid SA2 and ryu can't prevent that lol
@@Bafael Huh, well I guess my dumb Remy-maining ass forgot about that little detail haha. It just always looked so funny to me. lol my bad.
Thsnk you for always putting amazing videos out Baff :)
I'm so hyped for this!
24:12 I wish i could play Gill
Really liked this video, however there was a little detail that seems inconsistent to me. Basically wheter or not this list is considering the SAs in a vacuum or in consideration of the tools that synergize with it. You explain how Chun's SA2 is decent, but not really that crazy by itself. The thing that really pushes it to the next level is Chun's insane cr mk (I agree, cr mk late cancel has to be literally the one thing that makes her top, without it she drops quite a bit). However, when you talked about genei jin you didn't subtract points to it because of it's dependance on other tools (like Yun's command grab mostly). Genei jin by itself is not SS tier really. It gives you infinite juggle with ground attacks, speeds up every animation and gives way better frame advantage. Give this super to someone like Chun and it wouldn't be nearly as strong, as she lacks a command grab and a good way to launch the opponent, two of the main aspects of Yun's genei jin. So when you are making this tier list which one is it? The SAs in a vacuum or in consideration of the tools that synergize with it?
imo, if it's in a vacuum nothing compares to denjin, it would be strong literally with any char. If it's in consideration of the tools that synergize with it, it has to be hoyokusen.
That's why I'd swap Genei Jin with Seiei Enbu. Seiei is strong, but not as busted, so Yun having it wouldn't be crazy.
Meanwhile, Yang would definitely be better with Genei, but his kit isn't as oriented for juggles, so it wouldn't work as busted on him (the only juggles I could think of for Genei Yang are either spam 1 hit of Rekkas, or light DP).
@@nebiyuesayas5600 Ehh, I disagree. While unbalanced, Yun is an amazingly fun character to play and watch (to me). He's a deep char that requires a lot of skill to fully optimize. Swapping his genei jin like that would make for a more balanced game, but not necessarily for a more fun one. For me balance isn't the goal but just the means to an end (a better experience). The game has to be fun before it's balanced. So my approach would be to give Yun some minor nerfs (basically push him a tier back), and then buff the low and mid tiers.
@@Unit_00 that's completely fair. I do enjoy Yang (and Yun, although I don't play him much), and swapping Genei with Seiei is a bit extreme even for me, but it is an interesting option in regards to balance
@@Unit_00 you don’t yun. Because if you did you’d never say that. He’s the lamest character ever. It’s just a constant meter grind. That’s all yun does. It’s out doing people in an economy war and winning immediately. With out the execution he’s probably the single lamest character in the game.
@@Neogears1312 I play more or less every char in the game and the ones I practice the most are urien, yun and oro. I have my own opinion, I like playing and seeing others play yun.
Actually a very helpful video, thanks Baf!
genei jin is so fun
i'm confused, you said chun-li needed meter (when talking about kikosho) but then you say her ex moves are sh*ty (tensei ranka)... did I hear that right?
Yeah she needs meter for supers. Her wincon is sa2 (or sa1) which means until she has a super stocked she doesn't have a good wincon, not to mention that if she picks sa3 she doesn't have a wincon with OR without meter.
@@Bafael Ooooh I see, that makes more sense, Chun li depends on supers, that's what you're saying, makes sense
God damn it baf I'm trying to go to bed and you drop this? Come on now
Enjoying your videos very much
I interpreted the title of this video as the actual art of the super photo and I was really confused on how they were gonna be ranked
Blue Nocturne having its own tier is hilarious
Ah yes. Blue Nocturne. The "I hate myself" Super art.
Forgot to mention this but Alex SA2 is one of the few invincible supers in the game. For that little meter I’d say it’s at least pretty good for an EX super. I generally think Ibuki might have the worst supers because they’re all generally pretty mediocre with limited use where at best you get some burst damage and no EX’s with her SA3 and occasional chip with sa1. Ibuki just lacks a lot of appliances for her meter options that even Alex has some good ex’s and s decent sa2.
Fantastic detailed summary I agree with the majority of your list. Have you played the 4rd arrange hack of 3s? they changed a bunch of stuff and even added new SAs. A tier of that version would be very fascinating!
Love this video, didn't think Oro super 2 and 3 were that good but now I know
Well he does play Oro so he would know.
I just watched him use Yagyou Dama in a tournament and I get what he means. The unblockable setups combined with the jumps are brutal. If you don't exploit its properties it's just a really easy parry.
Melty Blood tierlists be like:
am i all alone
relatable
Sei Enbu nullifying Genei Jin sounds hilarious
For real. I would like to see that match lol
Love your content! Great stuff!
Idk why I popped off so hard when I saw this in my feed but I did
40:44
I think that was the intended combo for it but the scaling for H.T.hook to SA2 is GOD AWFUL.
SA2 can also grab outta Akumas teleport. near useless fact but funny
48:51 there is also the fact that unlike oro and mak, the opponent can actually avoid you because lol Q
1:00:28 in this memes defence (and maybe me being a bad player) 12 is the best thing about 12. His mobility and his air attacks are great and they tend to keep him in the game. Once they use X.copy, 12 isn't zipping around the screen anymore so I just tend to fight him then.
If Elena had a true low confirm, I’d be comfortable in putting her SA2 in A tier.
i think Q's SA3 is an interesting thing because i think it's the only command grab i've seen in a fighting game that has the input of QCF + button; especially as someone whose hands disagree with what their brain tells them to do even when calm, it's unique to upkeep pressure with it since it doesn't have the encumbering nature of doing a 360, 720 or even a half-circle back from walking forward & doing normals
by all means it isn't anything like SA2 which instant kills whatever eats it and it has a lot of weird shit around it (like being a second command grab on a character that already has one without crazy unique properties unlike ultra throw which can be big tool overlap for Q) but i think its existence is fully justified
Slayer from guilty gear has a command grab with a QCF motion and it's one of those karakusa like command grabs which is super nice.
@@pachicore yeah i hadn't played guilty gear when i wrote that but slayer's grab is cool. i'd say it might be a simple input so you can easily go into it from his dash cancels but sol's wild throw has been DP>K since 2000 so what do i know lol
I was gonna disagree with your Oro s2 and s3 picks but then I thought about it for like 5 seconds and realized im a foon.
Hey Bafael any plans to do more character guides?
Eventually but I've got other stuff on my plate.
Sean SA2 has the double super juggle in the corner and iirc it can do up to 70% health bar if max damage combo is done
Doctor: "You have one hour, twelve minutes, and three seconds to live"
Me:
Take a shot over how many times he says "super"
GILLLL
Hey baf cool video, unrelated but do you have any tips on how to stop people from just charging meter?
Specifically Chun it's really hard to approach her to stop that.
If it was easy to stop people wouldn't do it lol. Best hope is just approach and engage them, but try to do it safely.
I watched this whole thing and I didn't mean too. Very interesting.
What about a tier list for how important a Super is to the overall success of a character?
hey I know it's more editing work, but if you do more things like this in the future, it'd be nice to have some footage of the super as you talk about it!
This is peak bafael content
Gill's Seraphic wing cannot be parried (one of the only 2 moves innthe game you can't parry- Akuma has the other super). So if he catches you jumping with it, you are dead.
I'd actually argue sa2 chun li is S just because it's speed lets you punish a lot of things no one else can. The range and speed allow you to threaten from half screen. Combined with its bar even arguing that chun's confirm is what makes it good, with out it you have the most versatile reversal options in the game that keeps you from being able to do anything to challenge their footsies.
Ooohhhh this is gonna be fun
When I noticed the Blue Nocturne category at the bottom...🤣😂🤣