Methanol is Destroying our Turbo 670 Dragster’s Fuel System
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
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It's hitting the wall and boung to the other side simple
Watch some bench flow and porting videos..
Good stuff to know.
Too larg no velocity , it's like throwing a hot Dog down a hallway
wher is my sticker order ?
HUGE rail update coming soon!!
You guys rock been watching for 6 years now and love every episode
if you put a splitter forward inside plenum maybe you could Force the fuel to Stop the Vortex being driven forward , just leave it Shy of the opening to the front Port
@@JamesFox1 possibly, but wouldn't that also restrict flow some.
WELD A BAFFLE INSIDE THE PLENUM TO SIMI-BLOCK/REDIRECT THE FLOW FROM THE FRONT CYLINDER.
should ask the top fuel bikes mechanics, they should be able to help.
they run superchargers with nitro-methane.
@CarsAndCameras What you're experiencing is called the Coriolis effect. The reason it's happening is bc from what I can see, when Charles was cutting the hole for the plexiglass, the pipe/port that's feeding fuel into the intake is pointed directly at the front cylinder and that is causing a vortex to form that's spins fuel towards the front cylinder. So of course the front is going to get more fuel than the rear cylinder. If the pipe was pointed towards the left/rear the rear cylinder would get more fuel.
You need to try and have the pipe feeding the fuel into the intake come straight in at a 90° angle/perpendicular to plenum, that will stop the vortex from forming which should solve this issue of the front getting more fuel to the rear.
Its actually pointing at the rear intake port
So basically an atomization issue
Maybe put in a finned inlet insert to stop the spinning. It did look like a tornado.
I think the issue is the phasing of the engines intake stroke. The valve for the front cylinder opens first sucking in a large amount of the charged air. When the rear cylinder intake valve opens there isn't the same amount of charged air available causing it to be much leaner than the front cylinder. The same issue happens when trying to run a single carb on an old Honda parallel twins (like early CB350's).
i agree.
I agree with this as well.... Twin carbs maybe be an option with a turbo feeding both through a manifold
With forced induction, it _shouldn't be_ doing that but fluid dynamics is never really always predictable.
CONDENSATION and intake phasing, IMO. czcams.com/video/CPIRgmkbZOE/video.html
Carbs atomize fuel by lowering the vapor pressure, YET the turbo raises VP substantially higher. Anything that burns must become a vapor first, even wood sublimates. Hence the extremely 'rich' spark plugs.
Cylinder charging off balance/fuel puddling is due to the 'puddling side' intake valve closing sooner.
1st intake opens, air velocity gains momentum. 2nd intake opens, velocity is greatest (lowering VP). 1st intake closes, causing a 'vapor hammer' effect. Which starts condensing the local fuel, falling out of solution into the runner bend. 2nd intake closes, causing extreme 'vapor hammer' for the longest period of the cycle.
The problem starts when the fuel hits the cold aluminum compressor wheel, loosing heat energy in the fuel to the ambient air. Upon condensation, the centrifugal inertia separates the fuel from the air. Making it richer exacerbates the saturated air problem.
NO BAND-AID IS GOING TO MAKE A PRE-TURBO CARB WORK CONSISTENTLY.
Please, please, PLEASE WEAR SAFETY GLASSES, and don't get methanol on your skin. Even motor oil will soak through your skin over time, methanol is much faster AND CAUSES NERVE DAMAGE!
The shop needs an EYE WASH/emergency shower. Get a substantial amount of methanol in an eye and it will go blind, no advanced course in baution required.
This
I would do a compression test between cylinders, also check the valves and see if you have a loose one. I thought in one of your earlier videos at the track I saw some thing shooting under the cooling shroud on the back cylinder like maybe you have a blown head gasket.
Yep, they are overlooking valve lash issue.
My thoughts exactly…. If compression is lower on rear cylinder, it won’t draw in enough fuel during intake stroke, leaving more behind for the front cylinder to consume. Also, dividing the intake plenum would help direct the fuel to each individual cylinder.
I don't know if this is the issue because this is a turbo setup, so you have positive pressure in the plenum, not vacuum like in a normal aspirated engine that the cylinder has to suck in the mixture to work, here the mixture is being push into the cylinder, the admission stroke is not sucking the mixture.
@@joakoc.6235 i thought they had a draw thru turbo setup?
@@joakoc.6235 had cars old school turbo setup with draw through system. Whether it's a 2, 4 or 6 cylinder won't make a difference to the flow with vacuum etc... biggest improvement they made was putting the plenum on it. The one thing we/I haven't seen them do since installing the engine is check valve clearances since new. These motors are notorious for slack in lash adjustments after some running in.👍👍👍
Either way, it's something they need to check, and see what difference it makes. I'll be super surprised if there's not adjustments to be made.
Put a screen on the inside of the intake to atomize the fuel better, kind of like the percolator coffee pot at the top with all the holes dispersing the water. That was a hell of an R&D experiment
I was going to suggest this exact thing slow atomize and slow the fuel down a bit
Move this one to the top ^
@@Archermboi agreed this is what needs to be done to slow it em nd atomise
was about to comment this myself lol
Only issue i see is if it ever unseats its pretty much over for the engine.
Glad to see you guys got the channel back. Really sucks, you probably lost a bunch of subs from that stuff. And now your homepage is empty , I remember another channel going through this and when he started putting back up all his old videos everyone was mad because it completely clogged their feed. Just glad you guys were able to get it back quick. Looking forward to the next video like always!!!!
Keep in mind there’s a difference between idling and running under load. When idling, mixture is sucked through the inlet, while under load it is blow through because of the turbo pressure. If your inlet runners make funny bends it’s something to have a closer look at!
Using a blow-through system, the air, laden with fuel, is being slung to the outside of the compressor housing, by the action of the compressor blades themselves. If the fuel is moved to one side, and the intake runner to the front cylinder is on that side, the majority of the fuel is being rammed into that cylinder, flooding it.
Best fix, is to,spray fuel directly into the runners, using an EFI setup - if not, some form of baffle to divert more compressor output into the rear cylinder must be used, preferably right where the turbo dumps into the intake plenum, but this will be very cut-and-try...
The more cylinders you have with your current setup, the worse it will be. Your setup works best, on a single-cylinder engine...
Maybe just slap a 1000 in it
I believe they are on the right track. Methanol is nearly saturating the air. Uneven distribution coming out of the compressor makes sense.
Needs a prober plenum intake manifold with trompet runners
LOL like the prostate! If things are not working correctly, it's going to dribble out causing flow issues, but once it's corrected, it flows like a spring mist...
The word Ike was looking for is turbulence. And I also believe that's what's happening. The vortex of air created by the compressor wheel on the turbo is causing the "water slide" effect. I would personally try to make some baffles or fins on the inside of the runner to direct a percentage of the fuel to the rear cylinder.
Oh shit carsandcameras has been hacked... 🤬🤬🤬🤬
I slowed the video down and watched the flow closely. Your input to the plenum coming in at an angle is causing a vortex that spins the air/fuel mixture when it hits the wall, forcing it toward the one side. If the inlet is straight, rather than angled that will help. Also a wider plenum (less restricted) might improve things, but it really comes down to basic fluid dynamics. Hope this helps.
I agree with this. Plus the timing of between cylinders. One intake stroke is closer to the other so therefore gets more fuel and air.
That is what i thought too. Maybe it is creating a vortex inside with that slanted intake pipe.
Love the dragster content, I might even build one myself. Something you should try was used in the 70's was a device called "the turtle". They were little baffles that were laid in the bottom of the manifold to equalize the flow on v-8 engines. You can make test models from air hardening modeling clay. You will be able to tune the baffles to any shape and make the permanent piece on a 3-D printer.
You could put a bit baffle in to persuade the fuel to go to the other cylinder. I would also check the compression on both cylinder's just in case the rings are more worn on one side. ❤️💛💚
YES! When using Methanol/Alcohol you have to ensure that anything that comes in contact with the fuel can withstand it. That includes internals in lines, pumps, carbs, fittings, regulators, etc., etc.
Also to "blow through" carburetors, they have to be set up for that function. You can use a regular carb IF you buy or build a container that encloses the entire carburetor to where the carb is pressurized inside and outside.
I swear every episode I watch makes me believe more and more that Charles is an actual mechanics genius. It's not about knowing which words to use, it's about understanding the concept and putting that into words that ANYONE can understand. When he first mentioned the "water-slide" effect a light went off in my head and I understood exactly what he meant. The man is pure genius.
Love the content, guys! Can't wait to see what it runs like without any bogging!
You should check the exhaust ports to see if you have the same amount of flow coming out on each cylinder and I would check compression
That was my thought aswell
I bet you guys happened upon an unhappy runner length relative to cam profile or something, so the effect of the cams being closed (2cyl 4stroke, that means one full rotation with closed intake valves) is creating a pressure wave which is interacting with the runner length etc to cause the weirdness
would slightly greater volume leading to the starved cylinder or lessor to the enriched help?
@@Ravager669 I *think* it would help, more time to mix and all that, but then you lose a little throttle response cuz there's more volume to pressurize before the engine starts gulping boosted air
I think the best bet would be a helical spacer to add swirl and hopefully aid the mixing, at least as a cheap option
Yeah, they need to tune their pipes for proper exhaust scavenging.
@@hunnybunnysheavymetalmusic6542 no such thing in turbo applications
@@krakhedd I've seen it done for years by pro racers.
I used to race against those guys, but since I was relying on NA with big block brute force, I did not worry about specifically tuning for turbos.
Having a turbo does not mean you can not achieve exhaust scavenging, you just have to know how to tune your exhaust.
David Vizard recently did a header flow tuning video showing how symmetrical length exhaust tubes will rob an engine of power, because it is all about tuning the primary tubes based on where the pressure waves of certain exhaust ports merge.
Tuning it properly actually increases power INTO a turbo.
While you can believe what you want, the science is out there, and so arguing with me will not change what championship winning race engine developers have been doing and proving for more than 45 years already.
Please make an aluminium manifold from two pipes that split up at the turbo flange! That way you don't have to worry about cilinders switching sides
One thing that came to my mind was thinking about your cams. If one is opening more than the other then there will be some favouritism going on with distribution. Y'all have been running it pretty hard down the drag strip. Lately. Just some thoughts and suggestions for y'all.
hey look they got hacked ?????????
That's what I was thinking, i bet if they popped off the valve covers and checked the lash the rears going to be gapped up and basically loosing that cam profile
The front cylinder may have better ring seat / compression so when its taking its intake stroke its pulling more fuel from rear cylinder and by not having the same draw or close to the same that could be why it's doing that. Just a thought its definitely interesting and there are a lot of good suggestions in the comments. Good luck and I will be interested to see what you guy figure out.
Very interesting but I am looking forward to seeing the fuel injection setup, which should solve the problem and give you the ability to tune it the way needed, and getting down the track with all the power you have there! I know it is going to be a beast once we get all the potential realized! 👍 😊
I have a feeling the fuel is shooting to the front cylinder because as the air is flowing into the square plenum, there is a larger area on the front side of the inlet to the plenum so it is causing eddy currents (I think that’s the correct name) and because these currents flow to the front side of the plenum the fuel also flows to the front. If there was a more sloped transition into the plenum then I believe the fuel flow would me more equal. I know this isn’t the best explanation of what I mean but if anyone understands what I mean maybe they could reword it better
The window in the intake plenum was very cool. You need to use a high speed camera or some sort of slo-mo to really analyze the flow.
maybe you can try some sort of baffle in the intake to separate the air up some more, either that or maybe some sort of restrictor plate in the intake for the front cylinder, it will still get air just not as direct and maybe will help to balance out the flow
I agree a baffle would help for sure
Totally 100%
I was thinking the same thing, it maybe simplistic but it should work.
Brass screen after turbo would be ideal.
No this engine does not need anything else to slow down the fuel mixture its already to slow hence the fuel running as liquid its de-atomizing anything else in the way will make it worse
Guys the stock intake runner has different lengths to each cylinder do to the offset of the jugs. This is fine for an NA set due to there being vacuum in the runners. With forced induction the positive pressure from the turbo will favor the shortest path. Cylinder number one on these vtwins has the shorter runner. Your solution will be to make equal length runners to both cylinders with the plenum you already have.
V-twin engines can really be a pain to work with sometimes. Adding a turbo means more pressure and more wear on the internals with time. Did you guys check the lengths of your pushrods? The front intake valve might just be opening earlier and longer due to the pushrods lengths being different.
Great video. I love what you are doing here. You have two things conspiring against you. 1. The turbo acts as a centrifuge. You will ALWAYS have this issue with pull through systems. The compressor wheel throws droplets of fuel into the walls of the compressor housing, and it runs out in a stream.
2. Charge robbing. Common in manifolds that feed more than one cylinder, what happens is the column of air in the manifold starts flowing towards one valve as it opens, all good, but the second cylinder intake valve opens towards the end of the first cylinders intake cycle, and cannot establish good mixture flow. (Its a little more complex but thats close) the perspex manifold was a good 👍 display of that.
Both problems are partially load and rpm dependent, but I think you all already have the answer. EFI. I would love to walk you through fitting speeduino or microsquirt. Keep up the awesome work guys , love it 😀
What if the front cylinder has more vacuum than the rear? or more compression.
With the unequal timing of a Vtwin, I think it may be a bit of a natural issue. The plenum builds up pressure and fuel, and then one cylinder takes its share, but then the next cylinder doesn’t give time for the plenum to charge back up, so they run unequal. Fuel injection would easily tune this difference out, but it wouldn’t solve the unequal boost
@@jordanfr13 Well, I think what happens is because it's odd timing, one runner might be the correct length but the other is too short. So you get a stronger vacuum signal to the carb on one cylinder than the other
@@jordanfr13 I explained this in a little more detail above, along with possibly using crank triggers and high energy coils, instead of the stock magnetos, so the timing curve could be adjusted, as well as the fuel curve. A bigger plenum would solve a lot of the issues with the uneven firing order, especially under boost. This is the next logical step, since they've done just about everything possible with the draw-through carb setup.😉
I was thinking the same thing. I would assume that some kind of restriction on the front cylinder would help with the issue or possibly rehone the cylinder a little bigger to get a little less compression in an attempt to match compression a little better
@@danw1955 You know, the more I think about this, could it be that because the nitro has to be SO rich, the turbo is basically centrifuging the fuel out of suspension? I still think you've got an odd scavenging effect because it's odd fire but maybe just making the intake tube longer would help if it's the turbo flinging it.
To simplify what Cheerdiver said about intake resonance... moving charge (air/fuel mix) doesn't stop moving just because a valve closes, it'll pack in like a running crowd against a suddenly closed door. Since a cylinder fires every 720 degrees and you've got one 270 degrees offset, you end up with one cylinder having half again as much time for charge to pile up in the manifold.
Less mass makes a smaller spike, you get less mass from less volume (smaller plenum) but end up with more velocity and less flow. Solution?
Two smaller masses each make a smaller spike, which is splitting each runner with a plate.
Spikes are resonant to speed, because the charge mass only moves so fast. Valve closes, charge piles up, you end up with pulses up the intake path... hit an RPM where pulses start arriving with each other as the intake closes and you get a natural 'boost' in volumetric efficiency. Use this info for power and you have tuned intake ports. Use the information against *this* problem and what it tells you is that if splitting the runner to each cylinder makes two smaller volumes, you can also make two smaller *different* volumes that don't resonate the same, and this is important because you have one valve, you can't completely isolate the two air masses and if they're the same exact size they'll combine pulses and now you're condensing fuel on the back of the intake valve and in the valve bowl at specific RPMs. Solution? Move the splitter plate over to one side, now your two 'charge columns' are different volumes and weights.
With each cylinder getting two different paths of air from the plenum and mixing those paths at the valve, the intake pulses lose some of their resonance. Hopefully that's enough to avoid condensing fuel. All it takes is a little sheetmetal plate stuck in each cylinder's intake path, not perfectly centered but over to one side just a bit.
OH NO!!! I can't believe you guys got hacked!! I hope you guys get your channel and videos back!! The same thing happened to the Corridor Crew!!
Edit: I'm so glad you guys were able to get the channel back! It's horrible how people tried to take it away!
You guys should try making a dual plenum intake that splits immediately after the carb
Once you guys hit a wall with the 670 you should look at the 1000cc version see how far you can take that engine otherwise loving the build so far, it's so real with the issues you guys face making it right as best as you can to just go have fun break it, fix it again and more fun 🙂
I've watched you guys for 7 years, wow. Looking back, a lot has changed. Love to see you guys still doing it.
Channel hacked
When the metaphor the "water-slide" effect was mentioned it got me thinking and I think I may have figured it out. If you think about the way the turbo is pulling the air in and forcing it down its outlet. The air should be coming out of the turbo spinning in a counter clockwise direction. That means that the air is spinning around in the direction towards the front cylinder. I think if you split the air right at the turbo with the split being vertical. And running individual pipes the rest of the way directly to the cylinders. It should greatly reduce or solve your fuel distribution problem. If you can't remove the manifold to run the pipes all the way directly to the cylinders. You can run individual pipes to that manifold and then join them back together trying to aim each pipe at each cylinder. Alternatively, you could try to fabricate an air vane in the pipe right after the turbo to try to stop the spinning. The trouble with this is, you have to figure out how long the air vane needs to be or if it also needs to be tilted in any special direction to stop the spinning. I'm not sure which way would be easier or more efficient. Both will give some drag on the flow. Minor as it may be.
@CarandCameras have you thought about doing a dual carb intake? Making one carb for each cylinder since it is just a two cylinder motor.
i agree, its going to take a lot of r&d to work out a single carb solution. dual carbs would give you separate fuel paths.
They did a dual carb intake back on their black widow kart with the same motor. The videos titled "670cc go kart performance modding"
Exactly what I thought with the last video. If actual vehicle companies used separate carbs for each cylinder with high quality purpose-built engines and perfectly robot welded intakes, these guys should do the same with a Harbor Fright engine and a less than perfect intake. You're never gonna get optimal fuel flow to both cylinders through that boogered up stick welded intake which probably isn't even water tight.
Plus dual carbs would require twin turbo unless they do blow-through, which I'm not against, but they already decided they were going to try to optimize the current setup and move onto fuel injection afterward.
My son and I started a race mower project. New coil, carb clean, new plugs, wires were a mess but all sorted now. Runs drives pretty good for a free mower. 18hp briggs opposed twin.
Tesla go-karts now...
I don't have a ton of experience with turbos, but maybe installing a vane in the plenum could help. If it had a vane in it, the turbulence and atomization could possibly be manipulated enough to change the outcome your having and give a more balanced fuel ratio per cylinder. I don't know that it would help, but it's an easy modification that can also be easily removed if it doesn't work. Good luck... I love the channel and your videos.
You guys should check out something called "Colortune". It's a clear plug that allows you to see the color of the flame in the combustion chamber. Not sure how it works with Methanol, and it's not built for high rpm's, but it still can help with tuning that engine.
can you still buy a colourtune kit, i remember my dad using them in the 70's
methanol burns colorless
I reckon its cos of the uneven firing patern. There's a longer pause before the front cylinder opens so more fuel and air builds up. Not so much a problem without the turbo I guess cos it has to suck to get fuel. Sick build guys!! 🙌
Thank goodness you guys are back, I bet yesterday was tremendously frightening
What happened?
Just an idea have you checked the compression on the back cylinder compared to the front, if the back is less then there is less suction even though it's under compression from the turbo if the suction is not the same then there will be a cylinder imbalance also you may want to put in a defuser in your inlet manifold so the fuel is atomized as soon as it enters the inlet manifold some manifolds have lots of long cones cast in them to defuse the fuel and stop it from streaming like your getting which does the same as a defuser or finally put in fuel injectors at the ports then your problems will be solved entirely as you will get equal amounts of metered fuel and make sure you get injectors which will run on methanol as well as petroleum or ethanol so all the best from John from Rugby UKps I am a retired engine and heavy goods and Psv technician and diagnostics in fuel management and ignition on petrol and diesel and common rail engines on blown and natural asperated engines for 40 years
i have an idea, if you look your turbo is shoving air backwards slightly to the rear cylinder, but it has a wall so its bouncing off the wall and going into the front cylinder, basically your turbo not being strait is causing more air to go to the front. solution might be to re make the exhaust manifold to point the turbo strait and then re make the intake to be 100% equal length and a strait shot from turbo to intake runners
100%, I think you are spot on with your analysis.
@@daleglander8493 you can see through the window the fuel hitting the back of the intake near the coupler, then flying to the front causing that puddle of fuel on the front runner. easy to miss though so I’m not surprised that they didn’t catch it
I don't know if this is still the case but I was rewatching some older episodes and saw the one where you rolled the mower at 70mph. In that you damaged the head and repaired it. I can't remember if you guys swaped out the head, or engine in general over the many years but could it be damage in one of the intake runners or just a difference in runner shape due to the repairs. Then again if you have a different engine on there this is just the speculations of a mechanic 2000 miles away.
Have you done a compression check on both cylinders lately?
We did
How much difference was there between them, and did the front read slightly higher?
You can put a timing light on the engine and it should freeze frame the fuel in the plenum window. I’ve used it on TBI systems to see injection patterns
Glad y’all are back ❤️
the problem with draw through, guys, is the centrifugal force of the impeller flings the fuel against the volute wall and it " rivers or " puddles. blow through isn;t hard to do if you understand what needs to be done and will pose much much better results. build a pressure box around the carb to blow into. fuel pump with enough pressure capability to have around 2 psi more pressure than your boost number as taken from the carb box. boost referenced regulator( ref line to the pressure box) and return the fuel from the reg to the tank. Nice flowing system.
Heyyyy channel is back!!
I read some science articles 10-12 years ago that said if the temperatures are too low, the methanol will in fact come out of suspension; the air just can't hold as much, just like hot air holds more water molecules. Might have to do more research on that end
When is the last time you compared compression readings from each cylinder?
You guys need a blow thru setup. If it overpowers the seals put the carb in a box to equalize internal and external pressure. Nice, I love the visual intake that is sweeeet. Good luck.
Methanol is SO CORROSIVE!!!
Heck yeah. Way worse than Ethanol even.
The most important time to look at the fuel distribution is at racing rpm. That's why lots of carbureted drag cars will (clear out) the engine just before staging to eliminate any fuel puddling in the intake from running the engine at low rpm.
Could it possibly be a difference in compression between the cylinders, one allowing more fuel than the other or possibly a difference in valve adjustments?
It's worth a test atleast, is my thoughts. Not that they would do anything about it if they arnt even
I think the amount of overlap on that performance cam is affecting the direction the fuel goes at low rpms and saturating the front cylinder. If it fired 360 degrees apart like a horizontally opposed twin, you wouldn't have that problem, but when you have an uneven firing order, like on a V-twin, and you have a common intake plenum, you get a bit of back pressure from the rear intake valve opening while still on the exhaust stroke, and at low rpm, it's enough of a puff to push some of the charge back into the plenum to be fed to the front cylinder when the intake valve opens there. This gets progressively less noticeable at higher rpm's when the air velocity is sufficient to overcome the blowback (in addition to the turbo actually forcing the charge in). Port injected EFI will cure this, as long as you get your injector nozzles as close to the intake valves as possible. TBI would essentially have the same effect as a carb, so that wouldn't work. I think EFI will be the ultimate solution for proper fuel distribution and better plug life. Also, you'd be wise to invest in a pair of crank triggers and a set of good hot coils instead of the janky lawnmower magnetos. Then you can also tailor your timing and fuel curves with the EFI controller, and get some real horsepower out of that thing. Considering how far you've gotten with it already, it's the next logical step to dependable (and repeatable) performance.😉
Wow, shop gets robbed... and now the channel gets hacked. Can't catch a break at cars and cameras
"Frankenstein, depending on where you're from." Guys, Charles is gold and I almost feel like you don't appreciate his comedic genius! That would have had me rolling!!!
OMG this channel straight up got hacked.
Crank it over with a vacuum gage on each intake with carb off and intake blocked to make sure each cylinder is pulling the same pressure. Similar to a compression test, but checking the intake suction. The exhaust valve may be staying closed longer on the rear cylinder, resulting in more residual pressure the gas mixture is fighting with to fill the cylinder. Cam grind, valve and ring seal can all contribute to uneven cylinders. Also put a wide band O2 sensor in each exhaust bank to monitor the mixture. Spark plug reading will get you close but gages will give you actual ratios.
I was wondering who's channel was hacked, since the the hacker deleted all the videos. Looks like they are slowly adding videos back...I hope.
Hey ike, think about this, what does a carb do? It takes liquid gasoline and vaporizes it with air to make your air fuel mix right? K, now what does a turbo do? It is a compressor it compresses air to make power, now there's a reason no one really uses a carb/turbo setup like yours, the reason being that the turbo is compressing your fuel back into a liquid from a vapor and one cylinder is slurping that in, if you add a brass screen after the turbo that would help break the fuel back up into a mist, but the fix is either 1: fuel injection $$$ 2: move turbo to before carb instead of after 3: twin carb twin turbo 4:supercharger. Meth(anol) rots the brain lol.
Hey fellas an engine is basically a big air pump, as the piston travels its drawing in a charge, if it's not drawing in one cylinder as much as the other there's other factors in play here, mainly valve lift and compression, you should be using a temp gauge on the exhaust that will tell you if a cylinder isn't getting a full burn on the charge of air/fuel, Temps on the exhaust pipes should be near the same, if one cylinder is cold then it's not burning all the charge. Ever look at a carb for a Harley it's one big throat and a small intake that splits between cylinders, there's no way for the charge to differ to one cylinder unless vacuum is more on one cylinder. Do a compression test and a leakdown test I'd suspect maybe you have low compression on one side. Or it's weak spark possibly on one side.. but flow dynamics won't let the air fuel mixture go to one cylinder and not the other if both cylinders are healthy.
if the turbo is not straight on, the flow is prolly hitting the wall that it is pointed at and is being deflected to the opposite side. i've seen that in HVAC systems in homes where the air flow through bends in the duct work doesn't flow smoothly because of turbulence in the ducts because of the direction change. you need to have the straightest flow possible, or you'll create turbulence that messes with the distribution of the air flow. in an HVAC system it is solved by placing dampers in the ducts, which are basically valves that restrict the flow of air in some ducts to raise the pressure in the ones with poor flow. you just need to design an intake geometry that eliminates that issue without restricting the flow. you can prolly find a CAD program to help you solve this issue.
What is going on with your channel? It looks like it was hacked or commandeered!? 🤔
I’ve a got a theory. I’d be willing to bet that the front cylinder fires before the rear. My thought is that on the NA setup, the carb only provides fuel when the intake valves open and create vacuum. But with the turbo there is always fuel being blown out the carb regardless of any intake valves being open, creating excess pressure AND fuel inside the intake. Now when the front cylinder intake valve opens all that excess fuel rushes in and the rear cylinder doesn’t see nearly as much. Short of dual carbs or fuel injection I think a very heavily rear cylinder biased intake may work.
Did you guys get hacked?
As a v-twin, the induction and exhaust pressure pulses are not equal between phases. If you call the leading cylinder TDC. The trailing cylinder follows by 45 degrees. The event angle back around to the leading cylinder is 315 degrees. The angles/time between Lead cylinder to trail cylinder and back to lead cylinder for the inlet valve closing is far more. Therefore a single inlet spilt into equal length runners on a 45 degree vee twin will have side effects. Id suggest joining the two inlets together with tube bends and bias the feed to one cylinder. If its worse you've biased the wrong cylinder
Fuck did they get hacked? Sitting here thinking nah I didn’t sub to Tesla click it it’s all their uploads and tags now none of the videos are there besides this one
I think it's because the pressure have more time to build up before the front cylinder opens, then shortly after the back cylinder opens but less pressure have built op and therefore it gets less fuel mix. it's a V engine so there is like 270degress or soo were the pressure have time to build up for the front cylinder. It could also be because there is more time without flow, and the fuel can just build up there and wick/stick to the intake wall. Food for thoughts, hope it might help.
why hack this channel?
Back in the day, we used to epoxy popsicle sticks into intake manifolds to help direct the air/fuel mixtures in single plane intakes
I think your channel of messed up it says Tesla
It got hacked
In an oversimplified way, you want as a minimum, as much volume in your plenum as your engine use trough a full stroke. Ideally the plenum is there to allow the air to slow down before being pulled in the runners. The entry into the plenum might also be a problem since it sit at an angle, it will induce a swirl motion that could favor the front cylinder over the other. Smooth transition is the name of the game.
Dammm this is a bad hack I’ve seen it done befor too TGF CZcams channel someone must have your google passwords
When was the last time you inspected the cam, push rods, rockers, valves, and valve lash? Intake and exhaust? All could contribute to slight differences in flow.
you guys got hacked I guess
How to get even fuel mixture distribution in a draw-thru carb sys. (Says Turbo Engineer Hugh MacInnes in his '84 book Turbochargers by HP Books) is to use plate drilled with 1/4" holes fitted to the original Manifold flange.In the drag rails case an elbow could be mounted/welded on top of your window box & the perforated plate just inside the window box at the top. Turbulence & more even distribution of mix will result. See pg.# 60 picture & explanation underneath. Good luck & Love the sciency discoveries. Paul, from S. Central Tx.
CarsandCameras, your shit got hijacked. Everything is gone from your channel.
Gm had the same problem years ago when they ran a cross ram intake manifold. They eliminated the problem by making a plug that fit in the intake port that looked like a fan blade to mix the fuel better. you could experiment with a forward or reverse spinning pitch on the fan style blade fuel mixer in the intake port of the plenum.
Wtf happen to all the other videos?
The fuel distribution leaning toward front cylinder is wave by your square tubing setup. You will need to add a split plate (wall) in the middle. Thus your intake piping into the box is in angle will tunnel and force fuel uneven. When using plated guide will split fuel even. Reminder the piping has to be at 90° flat out. Same as same 45° angle down into intake. Add a split calumn. And remake your piping even no left to right positioning. down position to your square box only. This will even your plus setup for later with fuel injection as well if air and fuel isn't equal to straight intake and disrupted will flood and sparks will fail to your plugs later. Your intake has tooooooo many corners must be straight unrestricted. Fuel injection will remove this issue your having then your intake can be whatever from the turbo.
Think of it this way. Old style carburetor on a truck or car is split buy your intake manifold. Fuel injection isn't.
Wtf happened to this channel?
Channel's been hacked it seems.
I put 4 teaspoons of Marvel Mystery oil in every gallon of methanol to help coat the rubber and keep the fuel tank from rusting. been working for me for 10 years.
What you want to do is buy a megasquirt it is a small computer that can be used to control fueling only, Use a pair of injectors from a 4.8 or 5.3 LS (25lb if I am correct). put the injectors on the head pointing toward the intake valve, read the instructions' a throttle body from a late 80 nissian centra would work. This is a basic start you will need a couple other sensors one I would consider is a flex fuel sensor it will allow you to run gas or e85 or any mix of the two at roughly 110 octane and the cooling properties of ethanol, plus you would be able to tune the cylinder separately. this is not a expensive setup but it requires a bit of fabrication,
It might have to do with the surface lenght on each side. Where the surface is shorter, it has higher pressure at the surface. Where it's longer, there is less pressure. That's the richier cylinder.
You could try adding a fine mesh screen in the plenum some where to re-atomize the fuel. There used to be a company that sold intake gaskets for V8's made this way.
I actually just took a class that deals with very similar things in a more industrial application. It all comes down to the dynamics of flow. Its too complicated to explain in a youtube comment, but you want the smoothest transitions and turns possible. You need what is called "fully developed" flow, before the cylinders are reached. This means equal velocity and distribution across the area of the pipe. There's a few ways to do it. The most common is a longer pipe but that wont work in this application. I would try some form of smooth contraction after the turn back to an expansion. This wouldn't achieve fully developed flow but it would limit a great deal of the turbulence to before the contraction. Another Idea would be purposely designing the flow to spiral within the pipe before being "cut" to go to each cylinder. It's hard to visualize but definitely do some research on transport phenomena in pipes and intakes.
John…. If you want to turn that engine to 8000 rpm’s, you’re bound to snap a rod (or two) due to the engine having fixed ignition. You’ll want to install variable timing ignition to give you advance at higher rpm’s. A CDI type ignition would be the way to go. This is the main reason people chunk rods on their Predator 212 style engines when they turn high rpm’s. No timing advance. Timing becomes retarded at higher rpm’s.
Might check head gaskets and that the valves are in proper adjustment. I just feel like the front cyl is simply flowing more. Could be header length or even how the headers come together and the whole back pressure and scavenging effect is all upset. But it really seems like a flow difference between the cylinders. Also tractor supply has some good looking blue silicone fuel line that works well with methanol.
Great video guys always like to see the dragster. Like it better at the track. I think you guys should recheck your valve lash when it was idling your breather was popping in and out. I also believe that two smaller turbos and two carburetors would solve that problem you're having. I also believe you're going to have to get the turbo spun up to diagnose that problem. I'll keep watching.
Now, like cars with dual plane intake manifolds, y'all are on the right path. You might want to look into a high/low pressure design like a venturi tube style intake design. This design mimics the high and low air pressure gradient forces working on an airfoil.
If the cam used is a high lift, long duration setup, using a turbo will cause the breather to pulse, from the variation in intake pressure, due to cylinder filling, and depressurization. Supercharged engines use relatively mild grinds to solve this problem...
And, as far as vacuum and compression - the cylinders are not pulling the mixture in - they're being PRESSURIZED. If the turbo output is only 8-10 psi over atmospheric, the engine can't spin fast enough to draw vacuum for cylinder filling. Compression may lower output, but intake charging is another story. Trying to compensate for a lean mixture, fuel is just pouring into the engine, with little or no atomization. Since the flow of air and fuel from the turbo seems to be favoring the front cylinder, it's getting drowned out. The best way to ensure even flow, is to use fuel injection - the nitro boys don't use carbs. They also use a flow bench for their supercharger/manifold combos, to be able to equalize the air and fuel flow to each cylinder, without it being on the engine.
When you get exotic, it gets expensive. Do it right, and get an EFI setup...
The air leaving the turbo has a swirl. If the shaft of the turbo is not exactly 90° from the crankshaft his swirl will go forward(if exhaust rotorwheel is more forward than air rotorwheel). Or make a separation plate thats in line with the snailhouse.
Or put 2 separate carbs between turbo and cylinders.
two things i can think about this problem, one is what already read in the coments, intake valve in the front cilinder maybe is not closing right, so the pressure is taking that side, and other option, more crazy but i think is possible, i see that the tube going to the plenum is not centered, so looking to the glass, you have a wall next to the tube (front cilinder side), and that wall makes a vacuum to the mixture, like a flat end of a car, making it going to the front side, even when the tube is facing to the back cilinder, also maybe the mixture is facing the back cilinder, doing a loop when is going down and entering the front cilinder. maybe if the tube connected to the plenum is totally straith making impact direct to the glass side can make it even. also is true that the mixture is not atomizing very well, do you thing that making more "bumpy" the internal walls of the intake can avoid the fuel doing that, i hope you understant my bad english and solve everything, greetings from Argentina
the angle of flow is literally allowing some of the fuel and air charge to bounce off the top off the rear cylinder's intake valve and get looped back around into the front cylinder stream. Amazing. you need to make your plenum split closer to the turbo!
i have an idea not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, you say its taking the front or picking that i reckon it has something to do with the turbo, there is a possible solution to that you could try to make a baffle that sort of stops it fro directing to the front only but say a small baffle plat but then one may need to be made for the left side as it will take on what was lost on the right one, but the baffles might have to be staggered as to prevent it taking the least resistant path. there could be another way too redo the air intake so it has to hit a bottom and then get shot back up before it enters the intake port sort of like a updraft on old tractors how they take the air up from below into the engine, there could be a fair few ways you can solve this issue it might pay to experiment with different things i think its gonna be a bit of trial and error.
If you place the turbo between the engine and carb so it's pulling through the carb and pushing into the engine, you can basically stick any carb 4 barrel on there and it will probably handle it. Just depends on how strong the bottom end of the engine is.
For drilling that big hole, a ratchet strap and a bit of bar stock will make you a quick and dirty drill press, makes that process much faster and easier.