What's it like living with an electric car in winter?
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- čas přidán 22. 12. 2022
- In this episode we talk about the advantages and disadvantages of owning and driving an electric car in the winter. Having owned an electric car for 7 years now, we've been through 7 Welsh winters now so have some real world experience of what it's like to live with an electric car when the temperatures drop below freezing.
I mentioned a few other videos which are also a good watch on the same subject, so here they are:
This is a good fair test by What Car magazine which compared a number of cars under the same test conditions in the summer time and the winter time.
• Electric car real-worl...
Here's a good one from Engineering Explained where he compares the same 2000 journey he did in summer to winter in -18C temperatures in his Tesla Model 3 and experienced 18% range drop.
• How Miserable Is A Win...
Also, don't forget that ICE vehicles also lose efficiency in winter. A US Department of Energy study found that: "Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15% lower at -6C (20°F) than it would be at 25C (77°F)."
www.energy.gov/energysaver/fu... - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I just hang a hair dryer in my Leaf when it's cold. It's on a 120v timer so the car is nice & warm when i go to work - even when the garage is cold.
Driving an electric Zoe since 5 years I had almost forgotten the worries I had in the past whether my Panda Engine would start in Winter when it was -10 degrees Celcius in Munich. Now that you mention it, the memories come back. Starter cables and all that crap.
Frozen starters that just click, cables smoking.
Plus worth mentioning that the Zoe has been using a full reversible heat pump since its launch in 2013 (it has a backup PTC heater too that is only used in sub zero temperatures).
I ride an e-bike every day, I don’t like dying from fumes.. that’s the most important advantage in buying an electric vehicle.
Winter affecting the range WAS my biggest worry. Now, not worried. Here in Montana, USA it went down to -37 C a few days ago. Granted that is the extreme. However, I figure by having a garage and a pre-heating ability in an EV that wouldn’t be a problem. Plus, when it’s that cold, I don’t drive that far. The further one drives in this type of weather the greater the chances of misadventure leading to hypothermia or death. Also, many people keep their petrol/diesel vehicles outside here which leads to battery failure in cold weather, jump starts, or extreme engine wear due to cold hard starts; this leads to many other issues. So, here in the future, after I save a few more crowns, I’ll get an EV.
👍👍
We've had our Tesla Model Y for about 4 months now, no more scraping ice off the windows, cabin pre-heating deals with that. 4wd and traction control coped well with our rural Cumbrian unsalted road! Used to carry a jump start pack, not any more.
2:14 FYI - my Jaguar XE has remote start and warm up. Stay inside, use the phone app to start the car, and let it warm up - car stays locked, all glass and cabin defrosted in 5-10 minutes!
Tesla model 3 uses the motors as heaters, they "run" them staticly to create heat when preheating the battery.
The motors can even be made to run inefficiently when driving along so that they make more heat!
i don't own an electric car yet.... but i think a massively overlooked postion is the fact whilst ur car is parked at home and plugged into your home charger it is basically hooked up to a deisel/petrol pump/station the enitre time your sat on your drive way!!!(i undersatnd that not everyone has a home charger) and better yet your not burning fossil fuels at 20-30% efficeincy (on a good day) but using the 97-99 percent efficiency of an industrial gas/coal fired power plant!!. And to wheigh into the (and maybe overlooked)efficiency thing you can pre-heat the battery and cabin whilst still on the charger so really whilst the car is on your driveway its not depriving you of any charge/range!!.The same way higher latitudes using sump heaters to stop the engine blockes from freezing at night!!(somthing i think alot of northern hemisphere citizen totally overlook)
Exactly what I do with my eNiro. Toasty and warm and full of electrons when I unplug it and drive off.
Check out the UK electricity generation ... it's published in real time. Last night my area of the country was generating grid electricity at 96% zero carbon... great strides have been made over the past few years.
Absolutely love your enthusiasm, your company's work and your contribution to the movement of electrifying the roadways.
Thank you very much!
Auxiliary Petrol, Diesel, Propane-LPG heater are option for last 60 years
This is my first winter with an EV. It's also my first winter with a heated steering wheel, which is fantastic. I have noticed that it's best to pre-condition the battery by scheduling it to charge the battery right before I leave, when the temperatures are below 10C. I had to go out this afternoon, with the temperature at -19C, and I still had regenerative braking.
@@alanmay7929 As long as they're new... these electric cars will start up without issue in the cold for years to come. Ice gas get hard to start in the cold as they age.
Really good and clear explanations. Brilliant.
Chilling Facts, I wonder if the Petrol heads will hear them, or instead start on about Air-Con in the Summer, all things that drain power from machine using them, Petrol or Electric ..
Another excellent video. We worry a lot more about temperature with our 24kwh Leaf than we do with the 62kwh Leaf. I think the original Leaf is where a lot of this fud comes from. It's a great car, it's just limited by such a small battery.
Very good explanation of driving an electric vehicle in the winter. Thanks for all the videos in 2022. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Merry Christmas to you too. Thanks or watching in 2022 👍😀
Thanks. Happy Christmas to you too. 🎄😁👍
My experience with running a leaf in the Highlands over the past 3 winters has mostly been positive. Torque is easily controlled which helps maintain traction on the slippy stuff, the leaf is very well balanced without the big lump of metal sitting at one end. Range reduction has not been a significant issue. One disadvantage I discovered is that without engine bay heat the windscreen washer liquid freezes more readily. Easily solved by using the -25 rated fluid.
I mostly travel by motorbike. ( Not an electric bike... yet ) During the recent cold spell I "borrowed" my wife's electric corsa. For the most part, it was great, preheating is a game changer, just set the timer, jump into a warm fully defrosted car and drive off. Usual summer range of the car is 150 miles and this had dropped to 140 miles in the cold weather. My commute is 70 miles round trip so no issues, I just plugged it in every night and left with a 90%+ charge every day. Range anxiety zero. :)
👍👍👍
Heat pumps have fairly small Delta-T , so do NOT feel like warm air is coming out. ALSO for defrost of windscreen the air temp is not enough to defrost. So for at least the Windscreen a strip heater is needed.
Really? My wife's Tesla model 3 has a heat pump in and heats the interior up in a few minutes, and doesn't have any problem defrosting the windscreen.
The ∆T of a heat pump in the range of temperatures relevant for space heating is a design question, not inherent to the fact it's a heat pump. You can buy air-to-transfer-fluid (usually water, but can be air) heat pumps that'll give a 70-80°C output at -20°C ambient handily. Or -40°C output at 45°C ambient. You just wouldn't normally install either one in a car because it'd be overkill. Car designers balance a bunch of factors when specifying equipment, and sometimes we might disagree with some of them, but it's a choice, not a technology question.
The Zoe has uses its heat pump for cabin heating and I can assure you that it is rarely a problem to defrost the windscreen, especially using preheat. For really cold temperatures it has a backup PTC heater, but this is rarely used in practice in Western Europe.
I have the old Chevy Spark EV, and I average 5.5kWh in Summer, and around 4.7kWh in Winter, here in Central California. We get down to about 32F and 110F in the Summer
AND I have the remote automatic environmental controls for cabin and automatic temperature control for battery pack. Works a treat!
Very good analytical video 👍🙂 for comparison ..."petrol car's fuel efficiency can be as much as 10-20% less in cold temperatures. Hybrid cars can suffer even more - with a potential drop of 30% efficiency or more."
Very informative as always pal, thankyou. 👍🇬🇧🏴
Welcome 👍😀
We used to have a mitubishi outlander diesel car with a preheating element in it which is pretty standard in Norway, and boy what a hassle and still often it would have trouble starting in winter. The time and effort to get the car ready to go for a drive at -15 celcius or less was nearly enough to never take the car. Now with the electric car it never ever has trouble starting and is nice a warm within 10 minutes. No contest, the loss of range is absolutely not ever a problem.
That’s interesting, thanks . 👍😀
The words of experience. Norway is such a beautiful country too. 😁👍
I have a Skoda and I’m still getting 3.3m/kwh
This is my first electric car and I use it just like I’ve used any other car.
Your right, one of the best features is that you can pre-heat the car before getting in. It’s great watching your neighbours scraping their windows and I just get in and go. We had a lot of black ice the other week and the car handled it perfectly.
What is the power drain on the batteries pre-heating the car?
Obviously if the car is plugged into the mains it is less of a problem but what if it isn't?
@@grahamepigney8565 I set the heater to 25, half an hour before I went out today and made a note of the %battery and miles range. When I got in the % had reduced by2% and the range miles had gone up by 1 mile. My advice is don’t worry and don’t be cold😆😆
@@gordonrenshaw1627 good to know
Great content, I love your more in depth videos. With regard to a 3kw cabin heater, if you could stand that amount of heat for an hour, even in a thirsty EV that only did 3 miles/kWh that would be the equivalent of 9 miles🤣
As always great information. Thanks for the video
Thanks for watching!
@@ElectricClassicCars oh of course.My engineering brain loves it.
With the original heater in older vw vans you would be lucky to get any heat out of it at all in cold weather. There were long and leaky ducts from the air cooled engine. That conversion may have been one of the newer ones that had a bit better heater.
Great video and kills off the nonsense from the media and anti EV brigade 👍
Facts slice through BS every time. 😁👍
Great video, as per usual! Very informative and effective at clearing up common EV misconceptions. One note with regard to video production: In your segment in front of the dry erase board you used a light that was pointing up from underneath your face. This is commonly referred to as "sinister" lighting, as it's used to make movie monsters look scary! We are not scared of you, Richard, nice try😁. In the future try to make sure that the light is aimed down from above at a angle of no more than 45 degrees, if possible. Keep up the great work. I always look forward to the next ECC video. How about converting a Mk1 Escort?
We tried various lighting set ups but struggled to stop the reflection on the whiteboard. We very rarely use the whiteboard. 👍😀
@@spudproductions7606 makes sense! That's always a challenge. Thanks for replying.
Love your work 👍
Another error many people - and auto journalists - make is, that they are looking at the estimated range the care proposes. Now, when the car stands outside and you are using the car to commute, the heating takes a lot of energy, because the cabin is always cold. If you take the same car on a winter road trip, the cabin, as well as the battery, will eventually get warm and the required heating energy sinks - thus the range increases.
THAT ASTON THO!!! Really looking forward to an in-depth video (or series) on that peach.
Coming up 👍👍
When I was working in Toronto in the winter, my 2001 VW Jetta TDI would lose 10% of it's range compared to the summer.
Yep, ICE vehicles also have winter reductions in fuel efficiency. 👍
Makes me glad I live in the southern hemisphere., no snow on the roads and no need for salt.
What has living "in the southern hemisphere" got to do with it? The coldest places on the planet are in the southern hemisphere ... you presumably mean you're glad that you live nearer the equator! 😀
@@MrAdopado That was a bit tongue in cheek, but in Australia, whilst we do have snow in the hills in winter, I doubt that the temperature would get that low that snow falls on roads would cause any serious issue, [yes I do live in Melbourne, which is on about the same latitude down under to equivalent up north to Richmond Virginia and I believe snowfall there is not unknown].
I drive a fully loaded eGolf and I love it. Sure I lose some range in the cold of winter, other than that it truly has been a reliable car. Stable as the traction and stability control helped by the instant torque of the electric motor, heavy because of the batteries which makes it planted in the rain, and the regen braking helps not to suddenly slide when going down a mega steep hill for example. Love the classic conversions, saving to build a classic mini ev with pointy chrome mirrors 😊
What size tyres are on your eGolf?
At times I have not been able to get out of our drive because of the lowish profile tyres on our BMWs but have never had a problem with the super-skinny tyres on our Citroen Mehari (2cv derivative).
Thank you! Brilliant video
Thanks 👍😀
My car literally wouldn't start this weekend it was so cold. If I didn't have the work truck as a backup I would have been stranded 200 miles from home. Wish I had an electric then.
That's definitely an advantage I missed out. 7 years of winters in EVs and not one breakdown or not starting. For a classic car in winter that's unheard of. 😁😉👍
@@ElectricClassicCars Good point. I have a 2006, can't imagine pre 90s would fare better
@@gormauslander I had 1.8L 190E mercedes from 1993, I started it once without pre-heating at -37 celsius and it fired up no problem.
The lifter tick was horrible tho, because the oil is thick as honey at that temp. So you are basically running the engine without oil.
@@DuBstep115 yikes
@@alanmay7929 i left it parked at the apartment i was using in that city. And an emergency kit wouldn't make the car start. I had it jumped by a truck and still no dice.
That was a great way to explain to the Nerds Richard 🙂
Great video mate
Webasto & Eberspächer make pre-heaters that burn petrol or diesel and pre heat the cabin and the engine. They work with timer, remote and GSM signal.
My petrol Mercedes had a heating element, so it also blew warm air instantly.
One advantage I can think is that you don't have to take it easy and keep the revs low to minimize the dmg cold starts will have on your engine.
Great video!! 👏👏👏
Thanks 👍😀
I put my car in eco mode to improve the range. But also in eco mode it's less likely to slip as the torque is reduced..... LOVE preheat in the morning.
Good point. 👍
Great video again Richard, which should placate the soothsayers of doom! Your logical, engineering based approach makes things very easy to understand. 👍🏴😎
Thanks 👍😀
my toyota yaris hybrid 2022 did 70-80mpg in summer 50-55mpg now so even the latest ice car suffers in winter
its the choke that does that i think
My experience, winter raises the fuel consumption only by 1.5L/100km
Because winter tyres usually are small 205/55/16 and summer tyres are wide and heavy 255/40/19
So rolling resistance is a lot smaller.
You have petrol/diesel powered pre-heaters which are remote controlled (keyfob, mobile). These are quite common in countries were you have real winter (Not talking UK)
I was walking on Dartmoor during one of the beast from the easts. I got my phone out to look at our route etc. and although it was over 50% charged, it died within 2-3 minutes. I mean our drinking water had already frozen at that point so it was cold.
My Kona uses about 1kW to maintain heat once the cabin is up to temperature. So in the extreme condition of a traffic jam on a closed motorway due to snow, I would be able to sit comfortably in my car for 24-48 hours given a typical battery charge. Compare that with an ICE car powering the alternator, radiator fan, water pump, oil pump, fuel pump etc, just so an inefficient engine can waste heat into the cabin.
Yep. That sounds about right. 😁👍
I drive a MG5 LR for work, I get between 250 - 280 miles in summer, yet in winter I'm down to 170 ish.
I'm a warm guy, so heating is not used much, usually set to around 20-22c in winter.
I carry a lot of equipment, so every car varies, the MG just happens to be crap in winter. 😂
So yes range is dramatically reduced in the winter. I've done 30k miles in a year in it, had 2 winters and one summer in it, I wish it was summer all the time with an EV.
Does it have pre heating on the battery? 👍😀
@@spudproductions7606
I've heard others say it doesn't make much difference on the MG5 , and wastes battery warming the battery. If that makes sense.
Next time I'm not going far, and only working local I'll attempt to use it, or is it better for longer journeys?
The WLTP range for the MG5 LR is 250 miles. Not sure how you're able to get 280 miles. I've just messaged two people I know with MG5 LRs and they've both confirmed a summer range of around 220 miles and winter of around 170 miles, depending on temperatures and journey. Which is still quite a poor summer to winter range drop. They said they usually would expect about 25% reduction in range for the same journey in winter, assuming it's a 2020/21 model the same as theirs. It's a cheap EV compared to others so I guess they've cut some tech and therefore cost out in regards to their batteries thermal management. You get what you pay for I suppose.
@@ElectricClassicCars
200 mile trip from Holyhead to the village I live about 15 miles north of Swansea, arrived home with 60+ miles left on the range.
Averaged 4.8m/kWh, with a boot full of tool and equipment, with some boxes on the back seats too.... I find using regen is not as efficient and free wheeling sometimes.
Glad I didn't pay for the vehicle, its provided completely free by the company I work for.
@@ElectricClassicCars I have the MG5 LR and 280 miles in summer is definitely possible (4.9 miles per kWh) around town/countryside. Harsh winter driving on motorway only then expect 140-150 miles of range. During most of the year though in the 5° to 15°c mixed weather and mixed driving expect 3-4 miles per kWh like most EVs which is 170 to 230 miles of range based on 57 kWh usable battery. So if you took both extremes it's 50%. But 98% of the year people will get near 190-210 miles in the middle. That day when it's -10°c probably best not driving anyway.
Canadian here. It's -29°C here, right this moment. (-20°F) The overnight low was -33°C. That's a different ball game when it comes to battery performance. Also: every gasoline-powered vehicle I've owned since 1994 had a remote autostarter, which starts it and lets the engine and interior heat run for 12 to 15 minutes, without having to put a key into the car. This has been very normal equipment in countries that have ACTUAL winter.
Lived in Quebec for a yr and was amazing, and we had a car with the auto heat remote that was great..
No doubt a real winter requires a proper battery temperature management system (like in Teslas). At 0°C my battery struggles to deliver 2/3 of the power it delivers at 20°C.
@@marcofecteau I live in Vermont just south of Quebec in the states and we regularly deal with the same temperatures OP is talking about. I don't know about EV conversions, but its not a problem with production cars. In my experience when pre-heating the battery Tesla loses about 50 miles of range and the Chevy bolt loses 55-60 miles of range. My dad just got a new Bolt battery (part of the recall), so we'll see if the additional thermal mass of the denser pack helps.
I drove my iD.4 without any problems in -38°C this winter. Lots of dinosaurs (ICE) that didn't start. NO problems with The temperature in the car. I do loose alot of range, but still has ~260km range.
You're spot on, Richard. Thanks. 🙂👍
We drive a ZE50 with the smaller drive motor. Renault claim an EPA range of around 245 miles for it. I'm a driver with an 'unleaded right foot', so we generally exceed that range. The traction battery has a claimed 52 kWh available.
In Summer I usually obtain an average of about 5.6 to 5.8 miles per kilowatt hour, and in Winter I see an average of 4.8 miles per kWh. On a quiet early morning in midsummer, at about 32°C, I managed 7.5 miles per kWh on urban roads in Lincolnshire. That was around a flat 10 mile route with a preheated battery, and top speed of 40 mph.. In temperatures of -6°C, on a windy day and main roads, with a 100 mile route and a battery which was cold at the start of each leg of the journey, consumption went up to 4.3 miles per kWh.
Last week, at about 5°C on the same route, I achieved exactly 5.0 miles per kWh. (Thus indicating a range of ~260 miles.) The A/C heat pump was keeping the cabin at a comfortable 18°C. The route is a mix of A and B roads, with rural and urban hills, plus relatively flat sections, around the Northern half of Lincolnshire and the Wolds.
So, taking averages, normal theoretical Summer range is about 52 x 5.6 = ~290 miles. Theoretical average Winter range is 4.8 x 52 = ~250 miles. A Winter reduction to (250/290) x 100 = ~86% of Summer range, or a reduction of about 14%.
In practice, I'll never expect to achieve those maximum ranges, because we keep the battery away from being either fully charged or completely discharged..
A long reply, but it adds more data to your whiteboard figures.
Thanks for the info 👍😀
Excellent real world feedback. Thanks. 👍👍👍
@@ElectricClassicCars Thanks. We wish you, your family, and the team a happy, productive and prosperous 2023. 👋🙂👍
Norway have 1/4 of all cars electric on the road.
Our winters in Oslo are sometimes down to -20 C.
This is easy. You check car tests, for the winter. And then you don't buy the cars that haven't the winter range.
You get a range problem with a fossile car to. You need to fill it up more often.
Your Model 3 figures look pretty accurate to me, mine doesn't have the heatpump so is a tiny bit higher /km than on your board but that makes complete sense. I think my peak summer (+=22 degrees) figure might even best the board. Nice to see facts!
Thanks for confirming the numbers are correct. 👍
ICE engines also have raw efficiency change in temperature as the adiabatic design of combustion cycle is designed for average temperatures. I knew the effect of efficiency of all my cars and the effect of rain, wind and cold. An ice car also looses up to 25% in the cold too.
I live in one of those places in Canada that occasionally get to minus 40 degrees C, and I am very much looking forward to an EV making financial sense. I have a rust-free low-km 2001 Accord that only costs me at most CAD$250 Monopoly dollars in fuel. I have a heated garage & walk/bike to work whenever I can. We mostly have to pre-heat the motor, and either we have a trickle charger on the battery, drive 20 minutes on a freeway to recharge the battery, or ruin the battery &/or alternator. The range easily drops 30% on ICE vehicles. All those moving parts & cold fluids. The vehicle never really warms up inside unless you're driving 20 minutes. You might want to look into warming the seats and steering wheel instead of the air. Pre-heating the battery will warm the inside to some degree, and you can step into a vehicle with heated seats & steering wheel at -40 degrees and be relatively comfortable, and they heat up in seconds instead of the minutes needed to heat the air. Plus trying to steer with thick gloves on is kind of dangerous.
One more advantege. Instead of refueling in a blizzard, plugging it in at home and go inside. Negative: our range drops quite a bit in winter. Think it’s because the car lives outside, charges outside.
Would recommend fitting heated seats and heated steering wheel before worrying about the complicated fitting heat pumps taking space maybe at a premium . Probably better adding more batteries or more kWh dense batteries then moving from Wales to tenerife😂. Great video
I have a Renault Zoe, 40 kWH battery, bought new 5 years ago. We drive about 1000 km per month also in Winter. Winter in Bavaria typically means temperatures between 0 and-10 degrees celcius. My experience is that range drops from 300 km in Summer down to 190 km in Winter. Easily 30% reduction, yet our car has no battery heating.
Autonomy is still ok, as it is predictable and the display figure is realistic. I can manage, as Long as I know what to expect.
Yep, Zoes aren't great for winter range drop due to no battery heating. 30% sounds about right for a 5 year old Zoe. I wonder if the latest Zoe's have battery heating?. 👍
@ElectricClassicCars Richard, the Zoe shares one heat pump for both cooling and heating. Is that something that you could employ in classic conversions for space saving? I assume that the Zoe has some kind of solenoid valve to reverse the flow in the AC system.
Excellent video, counteracting the ‘click-bait’ FUD.
(By the way, -40 F is exactly -40 C. That is the crossover point between Fahrenheit and Celsius.)
Richard and the rest of us in the UK have never experienced -40 so though this is an interesting point it won't actually affect us ... thank goodness!
@@MrAdopado Yet… 😉
Thank you
We appreciate having a heatpump on our Nissan eNV200 because in summer it acts as an air conditioner. I understand the heatpump both heats and cools tne battery when either is needed.
True. 😁👍
How does a heat pump heat the seats? It can heat the cabin air but I'm struggling to see how it can heat seats.
@@MrAdopado you are quite correct, the seats ate heated with electric resistance wire, much like an electric blanket
with a preconditioned battery you should not expect much range loss - traffic is slower in the winter
I noticed on some of Björn Nylands videos he often doesn’t use the preconditioning enroute if it available as he feels that uses more battery getting to a charger than the charging speed benefits of a conditioned battery at a charging stop
@@stephenwensley9328 precondition your battery before you leave your house
@@replica1052 I think every EV owners takes advantage of that it they can. Björn trips tend to require several recharging stops and that is where preconditioning is of questionable benefit
@@stephenwensley9328 when precomditioning is for charge speed only
Thanks for always providing a factual data based analysis so can get real world details
Welcome 👍😀
I live in the biggest EV test laboratory in the world, it is 343.000 KM2 damn cold in winter and a lot of hills. Realy the least EV friendly area in the World. It is caled Norway and now close to 35% of the population has an EV in their family, (20% of al cars are EV, 30% in Oslo area and 80+% of Car sales are EV) so they take part in the tests. I have 65km to work and total elevation is around 800m. With my 7 year old 30kwh Leaf, i am able to drive 170km in the summer. The last week it has been around -10 to -14C and i am able to drive around 100km. I arrive at work with 32% left in the batteries. In the summer a roundtrip is no problem. Our soon 12 years old Mitsubishi Miev that did around 120km when new, is not able to do the yourney in any colder than -1c The last weeks we have parked it up. Our VW ID4 77kwh is 8 week today, and i think it does around 300-350km in the cold. it is suposed to do 505km in the summer.
Very interesting indeed. Thanks. I was intrigued by your comments about heat pumps in modern EVs, as I had the (incorrect) impression that nowadays the typically larger batteries have more or less done away with the need for heat pumps. Very useful and educational. Thanks again and Happy Christmas!
Thanks. Happy Christmas to you too. 👍
One major perk is that it always starts. Was recently driving in -20°C, no problem 😊
You could drive an old Volvo too
Hey, coax Rich and crew, from Rich Rebuilds, over to try out some of your conversions. He'll make some really great videos with you folks. 👍👍👍
As long as he doesn't set another electric car on fire. He needs to stay away from building electric cars, that's 2 he's set on fire now. What a Muppet.😆🤣😂
@@ElectricClassicCars 🤣 Ouch! But, fair!
I would love to own your VW truck, my dad had one when when I was a kid
You forgot something! In the Nordic countries we were always warned that cold-starting a petrol engine in winter causes more wear on cylinders and gears than hours of driving. If you were a hypochondriac you'd close your eyes and pray before turning that On switch.
I get the same 15-20% increase of consumption on my old diesel skoda compared to summer. And by the way on any half decent ICE you can control preheating through remote or timer.
Advantage - you can fill up at home! No need to drive to the fuel station when your are low. Advantage - no one can steel your electrons from your battery but someone could siphon fuel from an I.C.E. vehicle.
Are we not talking about that fiberglass shell up on the shelf in the back??? Is that a Lamborghini Countach kit car?
We've tried to get Richard to spill the proverbial beans about it. It's been hush hush I dare say.
Especially intriguing after seeing the multiple beautiful red teslarossas undergoing their transformations. 🤔
The heat pump debate we are having in Minnesota US is why are many Tesla heat pumps failing in sub-zero weather. I think because software is attempting to use them in extreme cold beyond it's design temp limits?? ... when only elements should be used?? I don't know for sure 🤷 That is just me overthinking it. Something to consider in your future designs. Bravo video as usual. Cheers!
Thanks, I’m sure the tech will improve as it becomes more mainstream 👍😀
In Scandinavia nearly every ice car have a electric motor block heater and cabin heater or a fuel heater of motor and cabin. No advantage here. Some even have installed fuel heater of cabin to evs, which runs on ethanol reducing need of electricity extending range when the weather is harsher -10 - -35 degrees celsius.😌
Also when you get warm air straight to windshield glass during -15 - -35 degrees you can break it with the great difference of warmth and cold. It has happened here also with ice cars. Rarely though.
Motor block heaters were good until 90s now they are 250w radiation heaters.
BMW and Audi stopped heating the engine with Webasto, it only heats the cabin now, not engine.
@@DuBstep115 Yes agree, radiation heaters of new cars are less efficient.
I got into a discussion with a guy who lives north of the Arctic Circle in Norway. Temperatures get into the -40 range there. (C & F meet at -40) Most ICE cars have water jacket heaters and heaters affixed to the oil pans, or oil tanks if dry-sumped. That burns energy, but not from the gas tanks. What burns the fuel is the stiff grease in the wheel bearings, and stiff gear oils in manual transmissions/differentials EVs are affected by the same things, as there ARE lubricants within the motor housing/transmission somewhere! True, perhaps not as much, nor are there as many gears shearing this thick oil...but it IS there! Also, stiff tires push hard, so reduce fuel mileage. He says that when it gets that cold he loses right close to 50% of his range, and he does the pre-conditioning, then seat and steering wheel heat, keeping cabin heat to a minimum.
@@Bluswede I just made a comment here that I have started w201 1993 mercedes without pre heating at -37 😂
Love watching
Thanks 👍😀
For my mrs she loves not having to go to the fuel station 🤔. She got 3.2 miles per Kw in our 2019 Model 3 LR on motorways back from Cheshire at 0 degrees C. Pretty good I thought.
I have a Skoda Enyaq 80x. In the summer with 21 inches it consumes 16Kw/100km. In winter at -11 Celsius with 18 inches 21 Kw/100km. It would be interesting if you could convert vehicles to plug in hybrid. So you could drive electrically for short distances. For long distances (1000km) with Disel.
The advantage missed is that electrons cannot be stolen from the battery as fast, as gasoline from the tank.
But the missed disadvantage is that it also cannot be recharged as fast as with a small canister of gasoline (or borrowed from someone's fuel tank).
That is why I guess EVs need some kind of swappable battery extender - just for the peace of mind. With barely any practical purpose.
Just a few kW of power in interchangable swappable module, so drivers can be sure that if anything happens they can easily get a few more miles of range, rather than being stuck at defunct charging station.
5:38.......If you raise the light stand you won't look like you are making a
horror movie. Otherwise.....great, as usual.
We struggled to avoid the office lights reflecting on the white board. It did look a bit ‘ Hammer house of horror’ 🧛♂️🧛♂️
@@spudproductions7606 Still great content.
I lose about 30% of range in the winter. It'll get in the 90's Fahrenheit in the summer and down to the single digits F in the winter here in New England. About 300 miles fully charged in the summer and less then 190 in the winter. 2017 Bolt EV. It makes a huge difference here. I don't run the HVAC anytime of the year - no air conditioning in the summer or heat in the winter ( I do use the heated driver's seat and heated steering wheel).
It's interesting how things have improved in 5 years since early EVs like the Chevy Bolt. It'll be interesting how much things improve in the next 5 years. 👍
@@ElectricClassicCars I'd love to have a heat pump and a few other bits of new tech. I'm the only one using the car so if the cabin gets "too" hot or "too" cold nobody complains. My new problem is the local utility provider just increased their prices by 49%(!) so now it costs more to drive the Bolt per month than my old Ford Fiesta. The Bolt is a better vehicle (and it's paid for) so I'm going to keep it for as long as I can - another ten years maybe. Things turn to rust around here so that'll be an issue in time.
L/100Km stickers on ICE are for "COMPARISION" and EV with WLTP and NEDC should be used as a "COMPARISION ONLY"
If i drive 10L/100K car, i will use close too 2 times the fuel as a 5L/100K car. That's it!!!
In Australia i get 5-10% less range in Summer, in my ICE. When it hits +35C.
👍👍🤜🤛
This to me is a generalised view stacked in the favour of electric vehicles and coming from a company with a vested interest in the EV market. Whilst your chart suggest the drop in winter range is not that bad it only lists percentages and not actual mileage lost. Take the Taycan in your list for example, it has a 79kwh battery of which only 71kwh is available to the user. Using your chart the summer range is a suggested 240 miles but in the winter that reduces to 192 miles, that's a whole 50 miles you just lost, it's the difference between getting home or not. In contrast my 3 cylinder diesel gives a 600 mile range summer or winter. Also, there are many petrol/diesel cars on the market with cabin pre-heaters where you don't need to start or even unlock the car. This feature was available way back in 1968 with the VW 411 LE powered by a tiny petrol powered engine, similar to those found on many boats today. Don't get me wrong, I am not against electric vehicles but they are not as great as your article suggests.
Looking at your miles per kwh chart I'm proud to say that my humble little Kia Soul EV is doing quite well! Just behind the Tesla Model 3: 4.1 miles/kwh. If I do no highway driving at all it can go all the way up to 4.3 or 4.4, but anyways not too shabby for a vehicle essentially shaped like a brick... The 2016 Soul EV does have a heat pump as well, which certainly helps efficiency.
I bought my 2016 Kia Soul EV+ as my current and very first EV, sight unseen, having never even sat in an EV before and I have no regrets whatsoever. It's been fantastic and I don't see myself ever buying another ICE car. Whenever I have to drive my wife's 1996 Toyota Camry I feel like I'm getting back together with my chain-smoking ex-girlfriend...
Thanks for the info 👍👍👍
The Kia Soul is a fantastic car. 👍👍👍
@@ElectricClassicCars Very well built car too. Every button, slider, switch, knob, lever and dial feels solid and no creaking etc when driving, though a bit of road noise at highway speeds, but still very smooth and quiet. Bought it used with only about 17000 miles on it for about $13000 in May of 2020. No regrets!
My leaf a couple of weeks back when it was -6 range was about 45 miles. Top range for it is around 75 miles. Short journeys around town with heating it up all the time kills it. And it’s still never warm.
Looking back on that week my miles per KWH ranged from 2 to 2.50 In the Summer it’s 4.4 to 4.6.
I'm pretty sure Leafs don't have battery heating in so they're at the mercy of the outside temperatures. Most new EVs have good thermal management for the batteries, which includes heating them up as well as cooling them. 👍
@@ElectricClassicCars
Yeah unless I plug in and pre heat then it's cold. Battery temp was 2 bars !
Get a hot water bottle.
@@ElectricClassicCars It depends on where you got your car. Cleevely (or perhaps one of James and Kate's channel's Cleevely videos) have a video where they're doing work on a LEAF in which they show, in passing, where the electrical hookup is for a LEAF pack heater (resistive, non-hydronic, as far as I remember) in a UK pack, but they aren't connected in UK models. In Canada, they have them standard. That said, they're less to improve performance, and more to prevent pack damage. For 40 kWh and earlier packs, they turn on at a pack temp of -17°C, then off at -10°C, which is definitely cold enough you'll get reduced performance, but warm enough that the pack will survive. The warmer will run off of grid power if available, or battery power down to 15% state of charge. The 62 kWh packs have different triggers for the pack heater than the earlier ones. They'll turn on when the pack is -20°C or colder AND ambient is -24°C or colder, then turn off when EITHER pack temp goes up to -18°C OR ambient is -8°C or warmer. The warmer on the 62 kWh models will also only operate when plugged in to AC (not DC, presumably because internal resistance is heating it?), unlike the 40 kWh one, which will run whether plugged in or not, though it can use power from both grid and battery, which it determines based on battery SOC. The battery warmer turning on also turns on the cabin heater when the car is off and using battery power to warm the battery, but apparently not when it's using AC. The manual recommends not parking a LEAF in
@@waterboy8999 Or suck some extra-hot mints.
wao , thats great👍
I know someone got a small Renault van on a good day he only gets 70 miles and in cold weather it cuts down a lot
Great video, many thanks. Have you ever electric converted a Peugeot 205 Gti or any 205 for that matter!? Would be interesting to see if the floor pan could be cut out and place the batteries there, nice and low down, like Teslas etc. Just a thought.
Not yet!😁👍
Please do a vid for the Australian summer..
It's possible to remotely start a modern petrol or diesel car and pre-heat the cabin. Though I'd still have an electric vehicle :)
What will they think of next. 😆😁👍 It's been years since I've owned an ICE vehicle, they never had that in any of my cars and none of my friends ICE cars have it either. Maybe it's an option in really cold countries or on high end luxury cars.
I want to thank you for that info. I wondered how electric cars kept you warm in winter and cool in summer. Maybe show how electrics can keep you cool 😎
My 2019 Tesla Model 3 is much more affected by the winter, but of course it does not have the heat pump, which was added, I think, in 2020. I reckon I lose 35%!
Nissan leaf - used as a TAXI
it hasnt been too bad until the temperature dropped below 4 Celsius
it takes much longer to charge and you dont get a full charge the colder the more negative it is
At minus 6 Celsius it was not doing well
-
While driving the total estimated miles drops much faster. So I'm having to charge more times in a day slower charging and costing more time+ money
then with the cold weather i put my heater on and the miles vanish twice as fast
--
on a positive it always goes as soon as i start in the morning + you dont have to wait for the heater to start heating up
Yep, old Nissan Leafs don't have battery heaters in as far as I know.
One "disadvantage" is the lack of nostalgic moments our parents and grandparents didn't have ev and we played with combustion toy cars.😉...but now seriously I'd love to have a video where either because of an intelligent guy or the experience of older EVs experienced Tesla owners we could make the correct use of a new ev in order to have a long lifespan
For example a] battery between 20% and 80% most of the time.
b] 90% homecharge and 10% fast charge etc, things like that
Your advantage no2...I do see your point, but not all diesels are that bad, some have a very sophisticated heating system. I live in Eastern Poland and my Jeep CRD will be pumping heat to the interior in literally 3 minutes, because nothing but nothing is going to the 'engine radiator and all heat is diverted to the interior radiator. I am sure that the are slow heaters, the old Rover 75 had to have an aux. diesel heater because the engine always ran cool, I'm a tad older than you and remember Gardner Diesels in trucks......slogging up a hill fully loaded and would barely get warm. I am one of those people who have been waiting with bated breath for the X Bus......sod it....can't wait another 2 years which might well get put off another 2 years...bought another diesel.
If your electric is always plugged in your fine. Cheers from montreal canada. Good luck at -20 c. I'll take a golf sportwagen 6 speed manual . And I never preheat a car. Start. Idle for a minute and drive slowly till water and oil heat up.
The lowest I've driven an EV so far is -14C. It was perfect. Pre-heated the cabin and battery perfectly. Was also pretty good in the snow too, so much so we ended up pulling quite a few people out of difficulty that day too. 👍
i live in sweden. below minus 15c hits the battery hard in our leaf. in warmer weather we get 250kms to a full charge.
190 km's when it goes below minus 15.
below minus 25c it destroys the range to half
What age Leaf is it? I've heard early Leafs and Zoes have particularly poor winter range reductions due to lack of effective battery warming.
@@ElectricClassicCars 40kw 2020 model.
@@ElectricClassicCars unfortunately all LEAFs are pretty much the same as far as efficiency and battery management as its all based on the decade old tech and platform.
Great video, wondering how the battery heater creates the liquid to flow? Thanks!
I don't have a load of knowledge on the subject...but I DO know that the Chevy Bolt has a small pump that circulates the coolant within the battery, whether to warm it in the winter or cool it in the summer. I went to the chevy dealership for a test drive and learning session. I would assume other EVs with liquid cooling have variations on that theme.
There is a pump. As Richard says, there is about half KW current usage to power the DC to DC convectors and pumps etc. 👍😀
Have the 500e with electric heater. While I can't complain about the heat, 6kw is actually crazy and more than I use to heat my house in negative temperatures . But it's a bit annoying that it eats 5% of the battery to heat up the cabin in -10°c . Actually it's the fastest heating car I ever owned, no webasto or eber come close. Warm air in 5 seconds after dead cold start
I have looked in to converting the AC to a heat pump. All in all it's just a 3 way valve that's needed. But I wonder if I would be able to trick the car to turn it on in freezing conditions. It's driven through the high voltage system so might be a bit tricky
On the other hand there is other stuff that's a bit annoying with electricity, that instant torque when slippery, no matter how gently you try to be that it will spin the wheels instantly, would be nice with a bit more progressive accelerator. It's happened more than one when I wanted to have a bit of fun and the wheels spin they do, 120, not 30 or 40 like a normal car when that actual speed is 20km/h. You really need to adjust quite a lot compared to a combustion engine.
The heater in a Fiat 500e is 5kw peak, which if on max for 5 minutes would consume 0.4kWhs. In 5 minutes at full heat the little Fiat should be boiling. 😁👍 0.4kWh of a 24kWh battery pack is 1.6% to warm up the cabin.
@@ElectricClassicCars Yeah theoretical, but in reality it will consume even 10% if I leave it for 15 minutes at -10c, there's that battery heater also that consumes a bit. The charger can't even keep up when it's on full blast from cold. 6.6kw going in and battery still dropping. Btw it's definitely not boiling 😁
Btw, you might have inspected the onboard charger a bit more. It's marked 230v. But is it the same unit as in egolf? Only got 25A main fuses at home, so would be so much better if it could take 2 phase 400v as the egolf.
Yes, but your car is not as well insulated as your home, and you don't have to heat your home from -10C to 18C every morning.
@@vlarhellar and you somehow didn't think I know that?
No worries of the sump freezing and cracking if you forget to add antifreeze,oh yea no overheating in summer🤞🤞🤞🤞
I have a 2006 dodge durango with remote start (after market "Viper" kit). So I don't need to go out and manually start it. It probably uses more gasoline than the drain on an electric vehicle with the pre-heat option but it works for me. It also has "electronic speed control" to help with stability. I tend to slow down in bad weather so 🤞 I haven't yet really lost traction and spun out. All that being said I do agree with your points for owning an electric vehicle. The issue for me is that I'm old enough that I don't want to spend the money for a new vehicle - gas or electric. I have invested in regular maintenance and upgrades where necessary and the car will probably outlast me. However anyone who is thinking about a new vehicle really should consider the pluses you pointed out!
Good points, thanks 👍😀
True enough, though a relevant difference for some people is that if you're parked in a garage, you still can't safely pre-heat a combustion engine car using a remote start without either opening the garage door (making it more likely that someone will run off with things you might be keeping in there), or pulling it out of the garage (which would still mean getting into the car before it had warmed up).
@@seabreamI can see that concern but, I don't have a garage, so using the remote start isn't an issue regarding that type of theft. Additionally I've always heard that you should not start the engine and immediately drive off. So even in the summer I will do this for a couple of minutes, just to make sure that oil starts circulating. In the winter I try to remember to set the heater on high, defrost to begin clearing the windows. Especially here in south east Kansas freezing rain is not uncommon so that makes it more important to start heating the windows for safety.
Very informative as always and you've convinced me to go electric, the problem I have is I live on the 3rd floor of an apartment block. Are there any developments that will assist me in charging a vehicle?.
My father, the Plug Pirate also lives in a second floor flat and has an EV. He just charges at public chargers, or at destination chargers. Usually free ones. Here's an episode on him and his electric motorbike. 😁😉 czcams.com/video/KY5rkEuy--A/video.html
I have 3 questions: 1) I see VW Beetle, VW van and Testarossa are pretty old cars that don't have the complexities of relatively modern cars from the 90s. I mean if you take a Mercedes-Benz from the 90s, it may have some belt-driven parts including PS tandem pump which separately serves both PS and hydraulic suspension components. I think I watched somewhere (maybe on this channel) that electric PS pump is used in the converted EV. Please tell if you had an experience with belt-driven hydraulic suspension pumps in any of your converted cars? Also I have belt-driven A/C compressor. I wonder if you normally just replace a compressor while keeping the rest of the A/C system in place? 2) Another question about complexity. I see W140 Mercedes is overloaded with various pumps (hydraulic and vacuum). I wonder if converting it into EV would be a nightmare or not? I mean original VW Beetle is a pretty simple car compared to W140 which unlike original Beetle has dual climate control, electric seats, windows, headrests etc etc. 3) You mentioned you've driven a converted car for like 7 years. Please share your experience about battery degradation in your cars during such long run. I think this would concern me the most, because on one hand you are paying a steep amount of money to convert your car into EV and on another hand after several years you may notice the drop in the range, and battery may be degraded already and require replacement or at least require replacing some modules. It seems Tesla doesn't want their customers to replace individual modules. So I'd like to hear some info about battery degradation and if you can replace modules individually or it's not recommended. Maybe you could tell more info about battery degradation in one of the future videos. Thanks in advance.
Most belt driven pumps can be replaced with an electric version. Battery degradation is proving much less of an issue than the doom mongers would lead you to believe. Some very high mileage Teslas are reporting a small percentage in degradation over 200,000 plus miles. 👍😀
@@spudproductions7606 I hope so because Mercedes is famous for overcomplicating things. For example that belt driven PS pump has 6 lines hooked to it. It's a tandem pump. I hope folks will figure out how to replace it with something equal or maybe even two electric pumps. This will be challenging for sure. Regarding battery degradation I hope things aren't that bad but why most of the phone batteries become junk in like 5 years while car batteries don't? Phone batteries are also charged daily and it takes only few years to start feeling the degradation. The capacity is dropping over time. Your phone may rapidly drop its charge percentage or it may accidentally shut down when you have like 20% of charge left. In reality it means its original capacity isn't there anymore. Your typical phone battery replacement will cost you about $100-300 depending on who will service your phone while car battery will cost much much more. I mean not every gasoline car has to replace its engine after 200K miles. So I hope to have more data when more used Teslas will hit the market. I guess since Model S was the first one, then it's important to check the status of the early Model S models including if battery was replaced or not and if not, then what's going on with degradation.
Modern EVs have sophisticated charging and battery management systems where the batteries have thermal management to pre condition and cool ( or heat ) the cells ready for the charge. Phones don’t, you just plug it in and hope for the best.
@@spudproductions7606 I hope, I hope. Just don't want to be the one who suddenly needs a new EV battery...
I don't know if it's thicker oil or what, but starting an old petrol car on a cold day can be a mission.
It sure can 👍😀
Yep, I'm pretty sure it's due to the oil viscosity when it's cold that puts an additional drain on the starting system when it's cold.