Making an kiln oven controled by a PDI for hardening and tempering
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- čas přidán 9. 06. 2015
- In this episode I'm going to show how I installed an PDI electronic controller to set and regulate the temperature in my kiln.
I intend to use this oven to harden and temper small steel parts.
The precisely controlled temperature oven will allow me to produce some repeatable quality parts.
Hope you get something out of this video, feel free to like, comment and subscribe.
Thanks for watching, if you have questions, don't hesitate to ask... - Jak na to + styl
Just picked up an old Paragon kiln at a yard sale. Found this on my quest to make it a tempering oven! Thank you!
Nice project Pierre, heat treat ovens are rarely found in home shops, having one of this size opens up many possibilities, especially in tooling. Well done! Marc
THATLAZYMACHINIST Hi Marc, this is a quite simple project and not so expansive, that makes it accessible to amateur machinist, plus the temperature reading is close to be pretty exact " Out of the box", Also it's easy to adapt to just any size kiln or oven...
Thanks, Pierre
Fabulous little video! I’ve been thinking about a heat treat oven, and this is the info I needed. Many thanks!
Hi Chris,
Thanks you for this nice comment, it's encouraging and rewarding when people take a moment to say they appreciate... ;)
Pierre
Enjoyed that Pierre - relieved to see someone else suffering old age glitches :) This is a very tempting project but as I heat treat so rarely, i guess I'll carry on with the old rather crude way! May well get tempted however! Love the compressor location! :)
ChrisB257 Ahhh, those glitches... This project is rather inexpensive, I would estimate it at about $150 to max $200 including a used kiln.
In my shop every cubic inch is at a premium.... Anywhere I can cram stuff is a legal space... ;-)
Pierre
Hi Pierre,
great video, very informative and found it very relevant to many people's workshops including mine.
Thank You
Hi Troy, this helps making an affordable heat treatment oven in a hobby shop, this will fulfill most needs.
Thanks for viewing and for taking a moment to comment.... 🙂👍
Nicely done Pierre! That should be a really handy tool.
Fred Miller Hello Fred, that beats the torch any time, the hardening is better controlled so the crystalline structure of the metal is less prone to glass type shattering...
Thanks, Pierre
Thanks that gives me some ideas on how to set up a heating element for a chemical tank project.
The Texas Gun Guy Nice to see that it promote creative thinking, using those PID's is an easy way to solve temperature control...
Thanks, Pierre
Haha, the interruption by the compressor was hillarious ;)
I have a small oven like yours also without a controller. so your video might have given me the trigger to get active and look for a Pid controller.
Thanks for sharing!
Stefan Gotteswinter Hi Stefan, the interruption got me by surprise too... ;-)
You'll really appreciate the controller, just make certain you get one that lets you set all parameters, so far the one I use is performing great.... ( Mypin TA4) You get them from AliExpress at a decent price.
Avoid the RCK rex-100, got some of those and not able to set the parameters....!!!!
Cheers, Pierre
This is awesome, I was literally looking to do the exact same thing with the exact same oven/kiln
This works quite well for me, most of my treatments are in the 1500 to 1700 deg. F range
Thanks for viewing and for comment.
Ha ! Mr. Compressor makes an appearance ! Too funny.
That's a sweet little control box you made there. A few thoughts about your set up: if you're gonna park your kiln on top of the control box, you may want to keep an eye on the temprature of the SSR. I couldn't tell if it's mounted to a finned heatsink, but ssr's can get too warm in a hurry if they're trapped next to heat source like that. Also, I like your idea of putting a plug on the back of the box for your thermocouple. If you do, be sure to use a "cold-junction compensated" mini-plug that's matched to your Type-K probe. If you use any old mini-plug (from Radio Shack or wherever) the dissimilar alloys will throw off your temperature process values (PV) by a mile (or 1.6km in your case) and it all goes to hell from there.
Awesome little project! Thanks for sharing.
Seven/Ninths Creative Hello, good point about the type and nature of the contact strip, I'll pay attention to that detail... ;-)
The case is not going on top of the kiln, it would be running for trouble, the SSR is mounted on a U shaped 5" x 12" aluminum stuck to the bottom of the enclosure, it kept cool all the way with about 10 amps constant.
Thanks, Pierre
Nicely done, simple and effective, a quick tip, look up the "auto tune" function in your manual, it will increase the accuracy and stability of your oven. Your PID's (proportional-integral-derivative) will set themselves at the current temp setting.
Thanks for posting!
Shadon HKW Hello Stan, seen that function, not sure it's in or out, but I'll look deeper into it...
Thanks for comment, Pierrre
Shadon HKW BTW, got some good tips about folding from watching your channel... ;-)
Shadon HKW l
Merci Pierre d'avoir fait le vidéo. Sa explique très bien comment faire. Je commande un PID kit en fin de semaine et je m'en fait un :)
Bonjour Jean-Michel,
Assez facile à réaliser, pour lr PID ne regarde pas seulement le prix, j'ai déjà acheté quelque REX-100 ou semblables et eu pas mal de problèmes, à mon avis les Mypin ou autres du genre sont pas mal meilleurs, en tenant compte que ce sont des repros de marques connue...
Merci pour le commentaire, Pierre
thanks for the video! I am trying to hook a PID to and even heat kiln for knife making.
Hi Aaron,
That should be fairly easy since there is a minimum amount of parts, just make sure your oven can support fast temperature changes with the simpler PIDs, or you'll have to manually control the speed for reaching the operating temp.
Just let me know how it goes...
Thanks for comment, Pierre
Good to see it working well, I did not see you test the oven temp with any other device to verify if your thermocouple values were correct or not. This is much quieter than the contact relay setup on my oven, which seems to work fine, but is certainly not as pretty as your digital display! :-) I am jealous of your personal Rockwell tester.
bcbloc02 Hi Brian, about the testing compared to another device, I've done something quite some time before with a TES tm. meeter, the difference was like 10-15 deg. F if my memory serves me right, to be performed again. Also there is a prevision to calibrate exactly the probe in the back of the PID.
Don't be jealous yet about the Rockwell tester, there is some work to do on it to make it functional, seems that the oil in the piston is the issue... To be continued...
You could certainly change your relays to SSR, even the whole controller possibly.
Cheers, Pierre
Nice one Pierre, Machinist and knowledgeable with electronic Gizmo's you your a pretty handy guy to have as a friend.
I saw that the nasty subtitler came back... Im sure he is the one who started the compressor
Phil's Projects Hello Philippe, my background as electronic technician serves me well here, even if this is a simple installation... Anyone needing help welcome... ;-)
Nasty Subtitler is impossible to get rid of.... And, unpredictable.... :-))
Pierre
Well done there Pierre. PID meaning proportional, integral, derivative. Do you have access to these settings for tuning the control? Thanks for the video.
cerberus Hi Harold, you can access the settings by pressing and holding some front keys, this TA4 lets you access many parameters so it makes it a very versatile unit, if you get one and are stuck just let me know and I'll give you a hand...
Cheers, Pierre
Nicely done! How is the SSR holding up getting partial voltage? Is that actually dropping the output voltage? I always thought SSRs were a simple on/off, I didn't realize they had the ability to ramp based on input voltage...
The SSR is being triggered on/off as the current is needed to kep up the required temp, it's always at full voltage, but, for shorter periods of time... As an example it will be 100% voltage for 100% of the time needed to reach the required temperature, then, will cycle 100% voltage for shorts periods to maintain that required temp. At this time it can be considered the the on/off cycling is a certain % of the time...
Let me know if I was able to make this to you... ;)
An SSR is basically a simple switching relay. Instead of a mechanical solenoid and switch contacts, it uses solid state electronic technology. This has the advantage of no moving parts to wear out, and higher switching rates for prolonged periods of time without wearing out.
In the end, the control and output work the same as a mechanical relay. A voltage is applied to the control side, and this allows voltage to pass through the output side. There is no modulation of the output voltage. Voltage in equals voltage out. However, an SSR can take advantage of it's faster switching by using Pulse Width Modulation on the input side. This requires outside circuitry. The SSR doesn't modulate anything. It only switches based on an input signal.
Pulse width modulation works by altering the duration that current flows. This is called the duty cycle, measured as a percentage. A 100% duty cycle will be always on. 0% is always off. 25% is on 1/4 of a period of time and off the other 3/4.
When ever the duty cycle is in the on state, full input voltage will be applied to the circuit. Due to these on/off cycles being switched at very high rates of speed, the power load of the circuit will act like it is only seeing the amount of power proportional to the duty cycle. Since voltages remain the same as the input, but only the amount of power transmitted is varied, nearly anything including loads that operate in narrow voltage bands can accurately be controlled.
Can someone post his oder her values especially regarding P, I and D? I was running my Mypin yesterday and with 170 °C programmed the obershoot was 184. Set the PID to auto tune resulted in even worse results....some people suggest to switch of the D function. Your Help is appreciated
Hello I would like to make a kiln element controller for my ceramic kiln to get slightly better results on some glazes that are little bit finicky the art of the system hold volume for certain temperature just like making high speed steel requires very precise temperatures with some poll times on the cooldown I believe. The way my kiln is set up it uses 240 volt but it splits it off into 110 volt for each element so there's a number of ways that I could do this. My question is could I run all of the elements off of 1 solid state relay simultaneously? That would be the best way to control the temperature for all the coils up and down the machine. I have it set on a 30 amp breaker.
Could you tell me a good brand of controller to you is I only have familiarity with the watlow brand as I used to repair incubators that used watlow controllers so I am familiar with the feedback loop type of devices.
For example what is the controller you used and what brand relay excetera would be a big help to me it would save me a lot of my own research which I really don't have tolerance for it this time LOL any advice you can give me would be very very appreciated
Hi, the controller in this video is a Chinese version of something, for the intended purpose it's all right. What you seem to require is something more related to commercial use and requiring more reliability. There is a line of controllers from " CAL Controls " that could fulfil your requirements, the model: CAL 9500P would do just that, it's programmable with many process steps, up or down, timed, etc. The price will be significantly higher than a knock off but you get what you need...
As for SSR ( Solid state relays), look on Digikey, Newark, web sites for good quality, there are others, but those 2 are quite reliable. Just choose a value slightly higher than what you require and install them on a proper heat sink, aside from this there is no big issues to be considered.
Thanks for viewing and for your inquiries, hope this will help you, ATB, Pierre
@@pierresgarage2687 thank you very much for your reply I appreciate it greatly I will check them out. As far as the Heats and goes luckily I'm a machinist at least in the sense of a hobby that I've been doing for quite the number of years. I've actually designed a heat sink that works unbelievably well it's like E channel it has two solid sides and fins in the middle in a fan that sucks through the fins! It works about Chrome what I can calculate perhaps 60% cooler then he straight heatsink. I know that this won't require something that radical but it's fun to do anyway.
Thanks again
Can you tell me what controller you used?
Thank you.
Can you provide a list of parts you used for your setup? I was lucky and picked up an oven for $12.00 USD. I want to use it for the same reason as you.
Thanks
Edward BarronHello Edward,
There are links to the main parts that you can order from AliExpress, for the free shipping mode you can expect from 4 to 6 weeks waiting, the main delay comes from local customs. But the prices are so much less that what you'll pay from local suppliers...
The other parts like switches and screws are locally found materials, the case I used, the bottom I made from piece of steel, the cover from an old electronic apparel.
www.aliexpress.com/item/TA4-Digital-PID-Temperature-Controller-SSR-Thermostate-Sensor-Heat-Control-Free-shippingFree-Shipping/32270255758.html
www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Quality-3M-High-Temperature-100-1250-Degree-Thermocouple-K-type-100mm-Probe-Sensors-Silver-Free/950360720.html
www.aliexpress.com/item/2014-New-High-Quality-40A-250V-SSR-White-Solid-State-Relay-Controller-3-32V-DC/32225616046.html
Hope this will help, good luck with the build and thanks for watching,
Pierre
What kind of thermocoupler are you using?
It's a K type thermocouple, make certain it can stand temperatures of at least up to 1100 to 1200 deg. Celcius, also in PIDs setup, you can normally choose the type of sensor you actually use.
Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre
Hello, i bought a ceramics kiln with a PID controller for melting brass, and it is heating up very slowly, dingen its programmed for glass, is there a way to speed up the heating process in any way?
Hi, you probably alerady got some presets programmed into the PID, normally ceramics will require a slow rampup in order to burn the vegetals still in the clay to avoid black stains in the fired pieces. Go into your PID instructions and find out how to modify the ramps and steps in temperature control. All PID's brands and models will be different on how it's being programmed as of the number of programming steps, this is why you must have or finf your manual.
Normally it's well enough doccumented, if required you could find videos on how to deal with the model you own...
@@pierresgarage2687 wow, quick reply! Thanks for the clear answer, appreciate it!
What temperature can I expect?
Here the oven can reach about 1950 deg. F, also depends on the wear of the elements, make sure there isn't any escape for the heat.
Sir all sitting video pid and sakmi kiln monitor sitting video
You're too critical of yourself. I'm sure everybody mistakes like that especially on camera I know I do it have since I was 30 years old.
Guess that most of us have it in ourselves to be the best possible beings, we feel better when things are well done, or when we deal in a proper manner with our neighbours... ;)