Indigenous Issues with AVATAR | RANT
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2024
- I’ve finally decided to make this one. Wasn’t sure if I should, but I did. And I really didn’t expect this to be as long as it is, but I had a lot to say.
Timestamps for you:
Intro: 00:00-02:40
Marinated Thoughts: 02:41-5:06
Where James Cameron is Coming From: 5:07-15:30
Production: 15:31-24:06
Indigenous Input: 24:07- 31:42
Avatar's Mission: 31:43- 35:12
Missed Opportunities: 35:13- 37:44
Outrage vs Acceptance: 37:45- 42:45
Silver Linings: 42:46- 45:16
Outro: 45:17- 47:38
Below are some of the articles and CZcams videos mentioned.
Articles:
www.theguardian.com/world/201...
www.iied.org/was-avatar-good-...
static1.squarespace.com/stati...
Videos:
James Cameron Talking about Maori Culture
• James Cameron Talks Ne...
CBC News Segment
• Avatar sequel criticiz...
Sideways Video Essay
• Why Avatar has the Mos...
Check out my cameo on Linus’s Video Essay about the Papyrus Font
• Papyrus: The World's 2...
#avatar2 #indigenous #videoessay
Thanks for watching everyone. Means a lot to me.
Don't forget to follow me on Instagram:
nativemediatheo...
And now on Facebook:
/ nativemediat. .
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What fascinates me about Schindler's List is that Spielberg chose not to recieve any money from it as he felt it would be blood money
I think what might have been interesting is if Scully had been indigenous-American and having an internal conflict about his ancestors had gone through and survived, what his relationship with that is and how it has shaped him, and paralleling that more directly with what the Na’vi are going through and seeing how that could change his character or better understand his ancestors and current experiences, and that might have sold me more on Scully and netiri’s relationship because they would have found some common ground I think even if his character still had work past being complicit in the current occupation. Just a thought experiment.
Yes, I think that would've been very interested to see.
Omg that would have been so interesting! It would have been so much better than him being just another white dude 🙄 soo many wasted opportunities with the Avatar movies. Let's hope they learn in time for the inevitable third one.
But instead we get him just wanting cheeks
No that’s would suck, the whole point of sully is that he is a basic American white militar, he’s ignorant, racist, dumb and don’t see the navi as people, but when he spent times with them, he starts to change, to learn, he evolved as a character to a better person, that’s the whole point
Too much for the average person.
I'm not indigenous. However, I grew up during the '70s and '80s. I've seen the progress so many tribes have made since those years. I'm sorry far too many people keep insisting that Native Americans are a defeated people- that's simply not true.
Hečhetu
Your indigenous some where. I only say this since humans did migrate across the planet. It’s really a part of who are at our core.
@@theundead1600 This is a very ignorant argument. The fact you can't tell the difference between being Indigenous like Native Americans or Native Native Canadians and being Indigenous to a place speaks volumes.
You mentioned that having more indigenous people in the writer's room and as producers would be complicated and involved. This is part of what gets me; it's been 13 years! There was plenty of time to reconsider their approach.
They put so much effort into breathing life into their world through VFX and other artists, who did an incredible job don't get me wrong. Still, they didn't seem to give 1% of that effort into giving life to indigenous stories and experiences that the films are supposed to revolve around.
*indigenous people from different backgrounds
Where can they find people indigenous to Pandora? A fictional planet? All humans are indigenous to some place in this planet. No matter your ethnic background, you have just as much to say about alien lifeforms that are fictional...
@0ooTheMAXXoo0 come on now. You are being wilfully ignorant here.
@@0ooTheMAXXoo0aye there bud idk, you sound highkey slow 🤷🏽♂️
@@0ooTheMAXXoo0willfully ignorant or just dumb 🤷🏽
I think Cameron has good intentions, but he's going about it in a really flawed way. I don't know if it's ignorance, arrogance, or even latent paternalistic racism, but I hope he involves more indigenous consultants and writers as the franchise continues
There's definitely racism in there. I think Cameron needs to do a lot of work on himself before having consultants and writers will even be effective.
isn't good intentions but lazy empathy the entire problem with white savior ideology? Most people have "good intentions" no matter how evil what they do is.
@Kai I mean, there's an interview he explains where he gets inspiration from
The movie is not about people indigenous to any place on Earth... Let James Cameron make his own movie... You go and make a movie the way you want it made. Much better solution than forcing artists to bend to the will of other people. And we end up with a greater variety of films as a result... No one should be making art by committee, that is not art at all...
As creative as human beings, are we also pull from our surroundings, and things were familiar with this is no different than Star Trek or Star Wars, or any other fantasy film with other cultures involved in it even the hobbit is based off of European cultures, but that being said you can’t get upset at somebody, pulling from a real life experience of a culture that actually exist on planet earth. We’re all human beings, and we all influence each other in one way or the other even when you look at language language that are in a certain area have similarties as well. He wasn’t wrong for pulling from real life cultures, especially since this whole film was celebrating the culture in their values within that culture. pulled from many different tribal cultures all over the world. The main two I particularly noticed was African and Native American. He may have pulled from some more but I don’t know.
interesting that he sees indigenous people in brazil fighting over a dam as fighting for their rights as if indigenous north americans dont literally do the exact same thing. the way i see this movie is why should i trust someone to make a movie about colonialism if they have shown to not understand colonialism. great video btw:)
That's a good way to put it. The video about Avatars music hits so hard when exposing the irony. Glad he brought it up and expanded on it.
Really nice, thorough video. I like that you pointed out the issue with the indigenous input in the films. Studi, Curtis, and Evans are _actors_ first and foremost- they shouldn't _have_ to suddenly pull double duty as language and cultural consultants in this multi billion dollar blockbuster series, just because Cameron was too lazy to hire additional indigenous writers and producers. Especially considering these native actors probably weren't _paid_ additional compensation for their informal second jobs, and most certainly weren't given writing credits for them.
Another point I feel doesnt get touched on enough in discussions about this franchise is the need to caveat any criticism with "But the graphics tho!". Everybody's gotta spend time praising the visuals before they can say anything negative about the bits that actually matter- the story and context of the film. Maybe I'm just an indie-film practical-effects curmudgeon, but I just don't care about how fantastical and realistic the CGI is in the latest Disney moneymaker. Like, no shit, if I poured half a billion dollars into a Weta Sweatshop of minimum wage animators I'd probably get something fancy-looking too, even if my initial idea sucked. Gushing about the vfx in the top-grossing blockbuster of the week might as well be complimenting the film's budget more than anything else.
all excellent points, although i, personally have not seen these movies because the Navi make my skin crawl, visually.
The point about the visuals is so real. A good story can save bad visuals, but good visuals can't save a bad story, so it really has very little impact on the fact that the films' stories are bad, yknow?
@@bananasinfrenchthank god the story isnt bad
@@Noob-yx1cu if you say so lmao
@@bananasinfrenchyeah i say so. i like many stories. Which stories do you like more?
I agree with you on the fact that is seems James Cameron wants to represent and stand with all indigenous people who are fighting and have fought but that ultimately he's off base and out of touch.
I feel like it's a matter of him being bourgeois and also not having any real life experience with indigenous people. It seems his experience is more akin to him going to the zoo instead of actually going to see and talk with people. Maybe a little bit of him not wanting to step out of his comfort zone, like how he kept rejecting music that sounded too foreign.
when i first watch this movie i used to hate it because we humans got lost the war
Maybe he just knows how to make a movie better than you
That’s ironically a bit what the Pandora attraction in Disneys Animal Kingdom gives off, too. That part of the park looks awesomely crafted, but story wise it’s a bit…. yikes.
Loved how your framed this. It does feel like a visit to the zoo through the eyes of imperialism and patriarchy. It’s clear Cameron tries to give good representation to indigenous people but it somehow feels toxic and disingenuous.
As an indigenous Maori, they did extremely well representing our people. Many of the words, stories, actions, beliefs and looks were largely accurate, as a country in the south pacific who doesn't get a lot of representation on the world stage and isn't acknowledged often by the pakeha (non maori new zealanders) populace, I was so happy to see my culture respected in a blockbuster. I can't speak for maori in general but i know a lot of us who are happy with our portrayal. I think we might be getting more justice to our people because avatar is filmed here so there is most likely going to be more influence from our people on our portrayal.
ps jermaine clement, the whaler scientist guy is maori too lol
Usually is just Americans that get offended with everything
@@sofiareyes2949ah yes take one persons example to completely ignore the underlying issues bro
I'm a big fan of the Avatar movies, but I really agree with the points you're making. I think the movies were great, but could have been so much better, if they only only had to be good movies.
It's sad but James Cameron isn't just a filmmaker - he's a moneymaker first. He's making blockbusters and those just need to reach the audience that will make money, so many things like an original score had to be sterilized to sound more Hollywood like, to sound like what the western audience already knows and what appeals to it.
Cameron raises important topics in his movies and his stand often is against the status quo, but they just don't cross the line of making people uncomfortable. I'm a white person living in a pretty much all white country, so I watched Avatar 2 in a full packed all white theatre. During the scene when the reef people are doing a pukana, some people literally laughed aloud. It's just the sad reality of people feeling uncomfortable with even little things that aren't what they're used to.
If those movies weren't so whitewashed, they would be better, more interesting. But would they reach the financial success they did? Probably not. Would they resonate with as many people, would more people listen? Also, probably not.
There's so much more to come in the future and people are getting more informed, I for sure did since the first movie. Still a long way to go though.
Thanks for the video, enjoyed and appreciated your thoughts.
the franchise is disappointing and cynical in creative prospect.
i hope the sequel flops like the rest of di$ney.
Always appreciate your videos.
Definitely need more indigenous leaders in media.
When I heard of the movie for the first time, I actually wondered whether the Navi would become a spacefaring people - especially since some of them had a seafaring tradition and the humans had the archival knowledge and abandoned equipment to work with...
There would have to be a major incentive toward that effort - e.g. some sort of cataclysm in the solar system, observed and analyzed by the humans or just the understanding that Earth would take revenge - but it would have been an opportunity to explore indigenous thought and culture, adapting to circumstances _in a unique way_ - instead of merely becoming 'Starfleet cadets'.
Obviously such stories will have to be told by someone who had experiences beyond Kipling's British Empire.
The Na'vi are much older race then Humans, but they probably will never be a spacefaring race. They all strictly follow three laws of Eywa, which forbids using metal, wheel and buildings from stone.
@@Taronyu_SVK
"They all strictly follow three laws of Eywa, which forbids using metal, wheel and buildings from stone."
It's a valid point, but nothing that sensible writing can't handle - just as man follows different 'commands' at different circumstances: e.g. building an arch prior a deluge or exiting Egypt to escape bondage.
The higher degree of organization would change the people, but that would make the story also more relatable and relevant - in comparison to the current state of the worldbuilding...
Avatar reminds me of the coffee table books of the 1950's, in particular the gorgeous photo books of Indians, over staged black and whites with eurocentric descriptions of these primitive people. Stuyvesant is the author of the book my mom still adores. It's a Dutch Colonialist trophy book.
I actually just did a video on the “white savior complex” in the avatar franchise from a perspective of a black person. And also how it’s plot is almost exactly like Atlantis: The lost empire and also similar to Pocahontas. I didn’t go too in-depth because because I don’t come from an indigenous background so there’s obviously that cultural block there that I’m not going to speak on. I’ve been dying to get the perspective of someone from a native/indigenous background on this topic. And I must say u went above and beyond, I honestly think this type of dialog is sooo very important. I think avatar would have been so much better with indigenous people being involved in the writing. How are u going to use their stories and culture in a movie like this and not include them in the movies making. I feel like if he really cared as much as he claimed that’s something he should have done. Instead he chose to create his own narrative out of it. Its kind of frustrating seeing white people continually trying to tell nonwhite people stories and then put their own prospective spin on it. I wish things had been done differently because avatar could have been so much more powerful. U were able to speak on exactly what I had in my heart to say but didn’t feel like it was my place to, and even speak on points I wanted to make but couldn’t quite put into words. This has inspired me to speak on more pressing issues in media etc that need to be addressed. Ik this is long but this has been a very passionate topic for me lol So thank u for giving your perspective in such an informative way.
Ponca/Oklahoma
When the 1st film came out my brother asked me doesn't it make you proud to be native and I didn't say this to him all at the time but I thought "No it makes me feel like they rip us off and then pay no mind to actual history"
They rather make movies about blue space aliens then movies on history about the real red man
What do we got as Natives, Last of the Mohicans and Dances with Wolves? Those aren't too accurate, although beautiful, I Love Last of the Mohicans even though they're still alive ha I'm just saying I think we deserve better representation than blue space aliens
P.S. Shout out for Wes Studi best native actor alive [Native Cry!!]
👍🪶
I had a similar experience when I went to see the first film with my family. My mom really enjoyed it and I had fun with it as a kid. But over the years I have really soured on this whole franchise as I've learned more about our own people's history especially when it comes to how we've been depicted in Hollywood. Things have gotten so much better with films like Prey 2022 and shows like Reservation Dogs. So I don't understand why inspite of all the progress we've made, we still have mediocre representation like this. I just hope James Cameron actually takes all of the feedback from the Native community to heart.
Of course, but remember this is a mash up with reality x fantasy. I loved seeing my people represented in such a beautiful fantasy way. A lot of animes are inspired by real life events. People say its bad representation, but I think its the opposite. They're depicting some aspects of my people into a fantasy mash up. Obviously, it's not going to be exactly like what happened to my ancestors, but it depicts it in a digestible way. Technically, yes, James C is profiting off of our culture and what happened to our ancestors, but unfortunately, in this world that's how it will be when showing anyones cultures. People also say it has white saviourism, which it is not. If you think it is, then you need to rewatch or get a new brain. Jake is an ally. He's helping and fighting along side them. Ultimately, he does not save the people. Their god, Eywa, saves them and the people save themselves. People are clearly blind if they think Jake saved everyone by himself like a superhero. He just helped. I do not like the comments that James C has said about Native Americans, but we can separate a culturally beautiful film from the person who made it.
@@bellal320 I'm glad you were able to enjoy it. But I've seen other fantasy x indigenous stories with better representation like Maya and the Three on Netflix or Rebecca Roanhorse's Between Earth and Sky novel series (although Roanhorse's history as an indigenous author is contentious in the Native community). If you can recommend any properties that mash up Native culture and fantasy, I'd like to hear them.
@@arturopineda1997 What's wrong with the representation in Avatar?? I thought it was cool that they mixed african x maori x native american into a specific fantasy universe. I wonder what the next tribe will be based off. I think that all Indigenous people can agree that they all had similar experiences with colonization. They took many historical experiences from the past and applied it to the film. Maya and three was amazing too, but it was also a different storyline...
As much as I like the Avatar series, I feel like Cameron’s approach felt overly simplistic. Even Disney’s Pocahontas, despite its historical inaccuracy, added some nuance to the topic. There’s an interesting video by pilgrim pass that compares the film to Miyazaki’s princess Mononoke, which, in the channel’s opinion, approached the topic in a more nuanced way. I’d highly recommend it.
On a different note, I’m writing an urban fantasy series about Druids and the main character happens to be Native American (Choctaw to be specific). I want to avoid some of the mistakes that Cameron did writing and avoid stereotypes about indigenous peoples. (Such as the Noble savage) Do you have any advice regarding how to approach it?
Send me an email. It’s in the info portion of my channel
@@nativemediatheory*Not only that, but I also liked the fact that you mentioned the genre, Poverty Porn. It’s been very problematic, for example you said that the good that Indigenous ppls do doesn’t linger on as much. However, not only that, but It makes the good done feel unrealistic, fake. Like you said, that genre Is VERY oversatured…👏🏽💯*
Avatar will be nuanced too, in the sequels. I saw that video, and it was not good. And I'm tired of this nuance argument. Like, do you people know that evil exist? Pure evil? Go to Ukraine and tell them that Russians are also good. Good luck. Some people, just want to see the world burn. Period.
@@Taronyu_SVK except the war in ukraine is not a simple good vs evil conflict
Both russia, Ukraine and the west had both very good and bad intentions and the right and wronh reasons to murder at each other
There is no side that is pure good nor pure evil in that war
It has nuanced and complexities which all wars have unlike avatar
So, a poor choice of a real life conflict to prove your point.
People just want to burn the world for very deep and complex reasons as well, even evil still has a cause
@@kungalexander829 Not simple? Haha. Russia is a clear aggressor, and Ukraine is a clear victim. There is no but. West has nothing to do with it. If you don't understand this conflict, do not comment on it.
Thanks Native Media Theory! Always love your representation! For your input, it's incredibly important, as an Asian American Artist who studies photography and film and as a person who love Avatar; this is an awesome perspective. I totally understand this, definitely gave me more insight on this unseen issue. GOING FOWARD, I think:
- James and his crew need to watch what they say. Though we can understand the purpose and intent, there can be misunderstandings and misinformation. So they need to be clear
- Seriously need to involve more Indigenous/Native Representation Behind/On the screens; especially if the foundation of the Na'vi is what is is based or inspired from. Agree with you on how it doesn't go full circle with where James is coming from.
All of that would really help and reinforce the intent and representation of this film. If they took or could take the approach of Prey, that would be definitely the way to go!
Awesome video again, thanks! You are able to break down very comfortably the indigenous point of view. It really helps me to understand more about the struggle Sámi people have gone and are going through this very day here in Finland. Members of parliament here representing white land and business owners blocked a couple of weeks ago a legislative initiative to give Sámi parliament more power to administrate their own affairs and the land we, the white people, have taken (excactly the same way how it happened there across the Atlantic, btw). Because the law did't pass Finnish adminstration still decides who is indigenous and who is not. The Sámi parliament has no say in that. Also they have no say in mining, wind farming or forestry happening on their reindeer breeding areas.
The situation with the Sámi people is ghastly similar that indigenous people in th US. It makes me think that us Europeans are all the same - evil oppressors. :(
Sámi people are the only indigenous people in the EU and they live in northern Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia. They are nomadic people living off the land and herding reindeer but us westerners have put too many borders on their land and forced them to live in areas that aren't always suitable for them. Not really that different from reservations.
If you ever have the time I wish you'd watch and maybe even react to film Sami Blood from a native American perspective. It is written and directed by half Swedish half Sámi screenwriter/direcor Amanda Kernell. It's in South Sámi language (and a bit in Swedish too). I think it's the only film ever made in southern Sámi language. The film gives very accurate depiction of the realities of 1930's Sámi people across the northern Europe. www.imdb.com/title/tt5287168/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
Great diagnosis - thank you for breaking it down. I did enjoy the movie, but bottom line - the true people of whom the story purports to be about (or are based upon) should be an integral part of the whole process. Representation COUNTS!!!
Excellent analysis! I always enjoy your take on Indigenous culture in movies and television. I saw the first Avatar and enjoyed it. I haven't seen this one, but might eventually. The Indigenous metaphor was obvious to me in the first film, but I suppose that due to my White bias I completely missed the "White Savior" trope. Thank you for enlightening me! In fact, not only is it obvious to me now in Avatar, but I see it in the Tarzan stories, which I absolutely loved as a kid. Anyhow, please keep up the excellent work and I'm looking forward to your next video.
There's no white savior trope. Jake is just helping and is an ally. Eywa saves them and the people save themselves.
I do not think Jake Sully is a white savior either. It was very disappointing to see that films that do have the white savior characters and films that created the trope in the first place, influenced Avatar by Cameron's own words. So clearly there are problems with how Cameron in treating the Avatar films when he doesn't get indigenous people onto these projects.
@@angeliparraguirre7329 Very true!! But in this world... nothing is fair:(( I do wish they casted more Natives, African, and Maori people. I guess we cant have our cake and eat it in this world when it comes to actor representation.
Thanks for this video. It seems so blindingly obvious that indigenous voices should be included in the development of the films but here we are.
Thank you for all you do!
No, thank you! Means a lot!
Clearly an American yt dude (Cameron) can't even assimilate all the historic and geographic elements that make the culture of these two indigenous peoples so different.
They both face a massive genocide until this day, but all the historical events were different, so their answers in form of resistance should never be compared to another in that way.
And as a sad note: Belo Monte Dam was built anyway, erasing in an arbitrary and tragic way everything sacred that connected that people to its land.
I admire Cameron for what he is trying to do for the enviorment, and the dedication he has to filmmaking. Both Avatar movies are beautiful (to look at), but it left a sour taste in my mouth when Jake is the "savior". I also think he sees himself somewhat of a "savior" instead of a supporter. It's such a shame that he doesn't include indigenous people in the writer's room, and that they aren't very well represented in the production. I hope, like you said, that he learns from this and takes the critisim to heart and actually tries to do better for the making of the fourth movie. I really like the way you break these things down and analyze it. I watched your review on the first season of Reservation Dogs, I thought it was great! It got me wondering if you've watched Trickster and if you'd consider doing a video on it and the controversy?
At what specific point did Jake see himself as a savior ? Real question
hi, Malcolm P.L. brought me here
This is a great video and overview! I hadn't heard anything about Cameron's uh... indigenous 'activism' ... so that was some great historical context for me to understand his current work. I really liked how you broke down the various perspectives from indigenous communities and didn't frame it as a monolithic 'take'. Big props for such a nuanced and educational analysis!
Also, your voice is also very soothing to listen to.
Loving your intro.
I think your fair-minded and generous attitude helps people be open to reconsidering our own judgment of things we like.
I specifically was curious to find an indigenous review of the film, and yours is filling an importing part of my perspective on it. Thanks :)
True. He points out that a lot of indigenous people do enjoy the film and says that's fine. A lot of indigenous people also critique the film and there is a lot to discuss. I think you can both enjoy the film and share criticism. Especially when it's critiquing choices of James Cameron who is in charge of the film.
This video deserves more recognition! You discuss the most important aspects of this discourse with clear and concise points.
Come on CZcams Algorithm, pick it up!
Love the longer format.
Thank you so much for all your hard work, thought and care you put into this video. Your voice is deeply appreciated.
Put me down for 1 "I'm still not going to watch this particular piece of empty propaganda but I'm hoping the kids will learn something powerfully real from this" ticket, please .
This video was fantastic!!!
It makes me wish for more indigenous video essays like this in the future
Commented early before I could forget btw
Good to see you again brother. Well said, i think the same on this topic that's why i'm not at all interested in this kind of films there is just not enough indigenous input. Can't wait to see what you are working on, I would definitely be interested in a film or book coming from you. ✌🏾
This was a really insightful video, thanks a lot for sharing your perspective.
I am definitely looking forward to watch more from you.
Your honesty and diplomacy is always appreciated. :-)
Bro. I just had to watch both Avatar and Dances with Wolves for a class, and the best part of the experience is finding your channel.
Surprised to have taken so long to find a video like this!
Loved getting to hear your thoughts on this. Thank you.
Great video. In some ways, it’s changed my mind. On the whole, it’s helped me focus on what the film actually is and what it isn’t. I don’t think the films were meant to represent or advocate for indigenous people. Do any Hollywood films do that? That being said it doesn’t change the fact that it could have. It doesn’t address the appetite for wanting to see more authentic representation. Avatar contains the zest of multiple indigenous cultures. Cameron's vision includes details that are subtly familiar as opposed to authentic. Despite its potential, it was made for the modern mass market. The only thing that sets it apart is its success. James Cameron does what comes naturally to him. This is telling compelling stories that affect hearts and minds. He can only authentically do this in his own way. I’m confident one day new Directors and creatives will do what James couldn't. It's just going to take time.
Another thing that got me was that the first movie was so inspired by African and Native american tribal culture, yet they still completely left out any mention of two-spirit individuals, or those who don’t identify as female or male 😔
These movies are made for white folks, not natives. It's pretty clear
Wasn't gonna immediately subscribe to you (was gonna watch a few more videos first) but fucking thank you for understanding that media literacy is actually on the rise. You see, fandom people tend to fearmonger about a "lack of media literacy" (aka they saw some kid have a bad take, or even just have a developmentally typical reaction to the concept of sex). But like, my Gen X Mom thinks the moral of The Little Mermaid is about listening to your parents so it's definitely not a generational thing. It's a very petty reason to subscribe but still.
The rest of the video is very thoughtful and I'm glad I could watch it.
Don't know how I missed this when it came out but thanks so much!
A missed opportunity also could be that he missed highlighting his own indigenous background. And maybe a future opportunity could involve beaming this film out to space some how as a warning for the human colonizers who wish to "explore" other habitable planets.
This was grea, thank you! I liked your positivity and always appreciate the research you do! 👍
I didn't really think of it as Dances with Wolves when I saw the first movie. What struck me was that it was almost a beat-for-beat re-telling of Dune with a glow in the dark forest and organic USB ports.
My tribe built the pandemic protocol for the town we are in. We give to the community,as well as taking care of our elderly,and young. We have a doctor,and dentist, also we have lawyers to help legal stuff, (helped me a couple of times) we have summer camp trips for kids. The tribe gives it's extra income from the business it owns to he tribe. We are buying back land that was taken.
Not all ribs are successful like mine, but we as a people still rise.
And we give shit and take shit from other rezs, but we are all family.
I think people assuming they can't enjoy a peice of media anymore because it has problematic elements is anyoning.
The point isn't to say you can't enjoy something anymore, the point is to be aware of the elements so you don't consume them uncritically.
Yup, but people take this criticism so personally they feel they have to defend it like they made the movie lmao
I can't enjoy it because it's a shitty movie
Great job as usual! 👏
Nah, I think you can say that three Indigenous actors in the whole series isn’t enough. It’s not. Like. This should be majority Indigenous on both sides of the camera. Would make it more accurate and also give that Hollywood money back to the communities they’re building stories off of!
Especially when knowing that there are many people who JC could have brought onto Avatar and Way of Water, and he chose not to. Also, it's not like his arm was twisted by executives preventing him from doing this.
If you haven't read it already, the meticulously sourced and well-written Wikipedia entry on Ursula K. LeGuin's novella "The Word for World is Forest" and the "Avatar" story's similarities to it may be of interest. When I first learned of the plot of the first Avatar film, LeGuin's work was the first thing I thought of. She wrote it back in the 1970s.
I don´t know if you have read it but there is a mexican book called " Huesos de lagartija" meaning " Lizard bone". Its a fiction story about the spanish conquest of the aztec empire but told from the point of view of two aztec brothers. Its very touching and I always hope that somebody makes a movie about this book because its a sad story but with a strong message.
Glad I stumbled onto this video. As a screenwriter, I created a rather taut, smart monster movie about a living Dinosaur in our modern age. The Protagonist was basically Muldoon from Jurassic Park. After years of on-and-off development, as I became increasingly interested in Aztec Mythology, I incorporated a lot of that research to enhance the world and make it stand out. After a while the protagonist became an Indigenous Nahuatl/Mexica Indiana Jones-type. In making those changes, I came to the difficult realization that I couldn't make it as authentic as it should be. So I commissioned a rewrite by a Mexican American screenwriter. It's currently being pitched to a major Mexican Producer/Director.
This is cool af. Good on you man
I honestly don't think the indigenous representation was more than an afterthought.
Which is frustrating.
James Sully as the protagonist is as much the everyman as a character can be, and that decision feels quite deliberate in comparison. This movie seems much more like an emotional appeal to said everyman, and I think that's the part these movies excel at. Introducing nature with one layer of obfuscation, as to not immediately recall the problems our ecosystems face as a gradual process, slowly but with certainty being polluted. That gradual change is replaced by a sharp knife where what we just learned to appreciate is destroyed in front of our eyes, causing at least me the anger environmental destruction deserves.
It seems to me like that's the movie's primary goal, to make that connection and Indigenous cultures are more windowdressing than anything.
It's frustrating. Looking a bit into the language Na'vi has been fascinating. I'm not sure how mch influence from real Indigenous languages has found it's way in there, but it does show differences in thought, that are difficult to translate into a movie. The way the music was handled is an utter travesty, but again: I can sadly see how it clashed with the mission to have the everyman immerse themselves enough to be emotionally captured. And I think the movies do convey that one point pretty well.
It's personal to Cameron due to his environmentalism and HIS understanding and HIS vision of how empathy with nature might be a motivator. The 2nd movie does include the common perspective of white families: Sure, this is all bad, but if I can protect my nuclear family everything is fine, but no, Climate Change and environmental destruction will come home to roost eventually.
I'm glad some indigenous people saw and see themselves in the portrayal of the Na'vi, but I can more than understand people being pissed about it.
I'm not indigenous I'm Mexican and, on a surface level, understand where I come from. And how I think James Cameron is going about the movies is that he's viewing them as /his movies/ first, and something for groups of indigenous peoples second. Which is fine imo, they are his movies we can't fault him for that. BUT it does feel very surface level of care to then say that these movies are, in a way, for all these groups of indigenous peoples.
This was a very interesting video to watch, I love learning about different people's takes on media esp if it depicts them and I’ve always been curious to know how someone who is indigenous feels about avatar as I also loved it as a little kid when it came out ! And I do still love it now and the second movie as well, and I hope in the future with the 3(?) more sequels to be released that Cameron brings more indigenous voices to be in production
He really, really could’ve just made Sully *any* kind of Indigenous man and that first movie would’ve gone over much better. No clue if the second is salvageable, didn’t see it.
I think having the Main Character be indigenous back on earth and reconnecting with his roots while helping the Na'Vi would've been way more interesting.
Excellent insight brother!
Grateful to have found you today
Wonderful video 👏🏼👏🏼
Wouldn't it be cool to have Finnish Tolkien comic, movie, series, cartoon or anime or any other media? And I mean make it sort of set in Iron Age Finland like the book of Kalevala, the biggest inspiration for Tolkien. If it's a movie or a series, have the biggest Finnish actors, like it was in Unknown Soldier 2017. There was already Hobitit 1993, but the new one would have more Kalevala inspired theme. LOTR will be public domain in somewhere in early 2040s.
Cameron is just once again using the white savior complex in his movie, saving a people he knows nothing about for his own self-importance.
Great commentary per the usual. While I understand that a screen writer's work is their "baby" there should be an open door policy when you are creating a story based on a people's lived/active experience that is not your own. It has been shown that directors CAN actively collaborate with communities they are portraying so at this point I don't see any legit reason as to why it's not the norm. Movie productions are incredibly complicated anyway, so is having a team on set that represents the culture, races, or nations REALLY that big of a deal?
I totally agree. Honestly the mindset that a story being your “baby” justifies not including the voices of the groups you want to represent is antithetical to the creative process overall. Ultimately you have to be willing to change a LOT about your story and characters when transferring it from concept to paper, sometimes to the point that the initial concept can be entirely different from the final product. You also have to be willing to listen to other people’s input and criticism because most storytelling mediums need multiple people to make that media. It just doesn’t make sense to me how the same industry that says you need to “kill your darlings” can turn around and justify a resistance to valid and necessary input because “oh they put in so much work, this is like their baby”
I highly suggest Chinua Achebe's "Things Fall Apart" for a very excellent Indigenous POV story.
10/10 great use of the Doom music
Was a last second decision but thought it would be fun to add lol
It's the "fought a lot harder" part that offends me. Both in the idea that folks aren't currently fighting (you could make the point that existing is fighting) but that they didn't fight back then.
I wonder what your opinion on Avatar Frontiers of Pandora is. It's a game about the kidnapping of na'vi children, and I've seen a few indigenous people praise it for how it handled culture disconnect when you're taken at a young age, etc.
the entire indigenous community worldwide, except Westerners, have praised Avatar, it is the #1 movie in all colonized countries for a reason, they have invited James Cameron, he has joined global protests, Palestinians dressed up as Avatars for their liberation movements, etc. "North American" indigenous people think theyre the only Brown oppressed group, but there's a bigger world out there
Avatar should have been written by someone who is indigenous or at least someone genuine who understands the experiences indigenous people have gone through
Thanks for making the video it was realy informatinal about the issues with the film in terms of representation.
Like even when I was watching the first avatar as a kid I could never quite put my finger on why it bothered me that jake had to be the one to save the navi instead of them saving themself (tho I didn't know the term white savior yet and that realy explains that well). Or resently when I was watching the second one in cinema and I noticed about halfways through the movie that all the humans were white (like i don't remember a single dark skined human actor that wasn't navi) and like that might have been done intentionaly to realy hammer in the whole "white man bad" message but it did make me wonder how indigenous/people of color felt to only be represented by blue aliens in a film about their culture
Please analyze Apocalypto 🙏🙏🙏
I feel like it's a mixed bag. Cameron seems to have genuine intentions but he's held back by dated views that were prevalent in his generation and are still held strong by conservative circles with very little exposure to any culture other than their own. I've always liked his work, and I like the Avatar movies but the criticism is very valid.
it would be great if Cameron brought more native voices and perspectives into the production; what I worry about is that his response to the criticism will be self-martyrdom and defensiveness (:T
I agree 100% I don’t support the avatar movies because they are the blue print, but because they open up real and good conversations on how we can finally move toward better portrayals of Indigenous people.
I remember watching a video where a lady explained a lot of similarities between the Taino People and the first contact with the Spaniards
Can you link that video?
@@nativemediatheory czcams.com/video/5wg1LGSCv1U/video.html
@@nativemediatheory lmk your thoughts!
The man wants to make blockbuster movies. That’s his prime goal. He’s going to make it palatable for the average person. That’s the short of it.
Also, white guilt is real.
Regarding the comment of Cameron while insensitive to the extreme, coming from a non-native but historical perspective I can't entirely deny it as overall a problem when facing colonialism? It's not about being here or not being here, but in the process of resisting imperial conquest, doing so with enough earnest zeal that you're able to negotiate terms on YOUR favor rather than the other way around. Perhaps though this is being too generous for what might have been the idea in Cameron's head (keep in mind for those not aware, Cameron is actually a pessimist to the extreme and misanthrope, it's part of why he likes his work on Terminator so much).
The first people/nation I think of in discussion of anti colonial efforts is always the Chichimeca in the Mesoamerican context which played out so differently compared to North America. Then engaged the Spaniards in a brutal 30 year ish long war of guerilla warfare, ambushing and annihilating all convoys that came through their land and forces sent to exterminate them - any force too large for them to face they melted away and dispersed into the desert (by their culture at the time they were a migratory hunter-gatherer society adept at dispersing into the hinterland). Eventually they forced the Spanish to sue for peace, accepting Catholicism on their terms while retaining autonomy from thereon out.
In this discussion I suppose then the questioning is, why didn't this play out more often in North America, which is an even larger spread of land for non rigid nations to disperse like water when attacked by overwhelming forces (IE, the Lake Nations as I'm aware would be incapable of this tactic, because their entire society is sedentary), and to retort with enough force in guerilla warfare to force the US to come to terms. To a point it's the domain of armchair general woulda coulda shoulda - we look back with the knowledge the US honors treaties like it honors toilet paper so any non decisive peace agreements after contact engagements with the colonial move westward would be followed up immediately by further was of conquest. But at some level there must have been several mistakes made in the prosecution of campaigns that would have secured greater autonomy vs the vae victis terms handed down by the US.
*BRAND ACTIVISM*
Put on Your war paint, because we gonna sink some British tea - Yeehaaw...
One can argue that appropriation is a coping behaviour when being ashamed - reenacting a historical drama while conveniently remaining in denial when it come to actual repentance - reminscent of the lifes of prophets and poets, stoned and evicted only to build statues to them once they are dead - but it in my experience it is better to be rude and brutish than being completely without _imagination_ and _that_ is the cardinal sin of Western civilization - and 21st century cinema - which can't be forgiven.
Since TWITTER was operated by the FBI and neo-conservative elements of Congress, no checkmarked and trending bot can be trusted and the polarization tactics to provoke hype can't distract from the fact that the plot of the sequel is simply *plagiarizing 'Dances with Wolfes' (1988 novel) **_for the second time_* , ignoring the fact that *people are mostly interested in dramatization because of **_stories that resonate_* - cinema is either _the full equivalent_ of _traditional storyteling_ or it is mere _dazzle_ ...
The quote by Cameron itself is a plausible though and sentiment - whithin the mind of an American native - unless he claims to be a reincarnated Plains Indian it is obscure that he identifies with the statement - however, as formally absurd such propagations are, they are most familiar to anyone who feels already annoyed by *a pattern of multi-billion dollar corporations, crusading under an 'intersectionalist' banner* (heralded by 'enlightened', 'progressive' 'VOX', 'VICE') which _imitates_ civic social movements to mobilize for 'nontroversies' - just as caring for the modernization of the Amazon, generating electricity for Brazil's competing national industries does nothing for the very issues like suicide rates in an US reservation (from the perspective of political realism, wishing to see _all_ of Meso- and Southern America covered in jungle is a US national interest - with Western 'modernization theory' as the sole 'torch of reason and hope').
Why are reservations - _de jure sovereign nations_ - are 'dead end' ? Would that be a question worth, making a documentary about ? How can the situation be improved, down to enforcing the de facto *_international treaties_* , is there also a cultural heritage, stories of the land that can be explored and transferred into an American Union of States, building bridges of cultural exchange into Asia ?...
...alas, here's the problem that strikes everyone, visiting the US: having expanded 'the frontier' to the Pacific - violating all bonds of genuine friendship and military alliance - *America has run out of imagination - it is exactly it's global expansionism that prevents Americans from pondering profound and complex solutions* , they are exactly what they accuse others of: land usurping tyrants who have to be _contained_ (in the sense of George Kennan) in order to reform themselves, _intensively_ .
Hardly touching on the actual movie, I leave it at that, because _these are_ the issues that will haunt us all in the decades to come...
Watched another vid from this channel and this got suggested . I don't know if there's a productive way to add this other than to just say plainly my only intent is to add to the richness of indigeneity vs empire portrayed in the film.
Cameron pulled from many different indigenous cultures facing empire, including my own ancient ancestors, the Pictish--pictish being a word only known through the Roman empire. No one knows what the northern British tribes called themselves.
The Picts were known through Roman eyes as the "blue devils" because of the blue coloring of the woad plant that they would use as an anticeptic for wounds that would heal into dark blue "tattoos" and also the lighter blue coloring that they would apply head to toe before battle. A Roman soldier sent to ancient Brittania would see a Pictish warrior as appearing all blue with darker blue markings in their body.
Also, the importance of trees is central to pre-Roman Druidic practices, especially the Oak tree. Eywa in the movie is synonymous with the Druidic Awen, the spirit of poets and musicians, and ultimately the spirit of truth itself.
None of this is to take away from current indigeneity. There are many aspects of the Nav'ii that are specific to African and Native American cultures. But more just to say that empire is an old disease, and one that many people have fought for a long time and are still fighting.
What’s your thoughts on Ace Ventura pet Detective two
I'm not Native American, but native to Africa (South Africa🇿🇦), but here in my country and the whole continent, all of us are native to the continent, but not all of us are "indigenous", as there are many indigenous tribes who've lived in certain environments for millions of years like the Khoi and the San people of Southern Africa.
Other than that, I really dislike the Avatar films. So much so, that I enjoy hate watching and nitpicking every piece of the film, from the story, acting, music, etc. I also did not like the sequel that much and was hoping for more Polynesian actors other than Cliff Curtis (I Cliff Curtis btw, he's great), since the water tribe is based on the Māori of New Zealand. But at the end of the day, this movie was not made for native and indigenous people everywhere if it can't even consult and have them be part of the behind-the-scenes production. Its just better to watch native and indigenous backed films and tv where they are the directors, writers and producers because not only is more authentic to the lived experiences of those people, but its more personal. And the stories are great too.
Thank you for this video, it was very enriching. Made me realize how much i fetichized it's exoticism. Everyday a new learning about estructural colonialism kk
One of the silver linings of the 2nd film I can think of is that it did not downplay the themes of invasion. everything you said in the video was spot on in regards to how they did not include enough indigenous voices or representation, I can understand Jake Sullys kids being white actors, but the Ocean Navi played almost entirely by white people is the same tired shit. But it is a genuine miracle that they managed to keep the themes clear. In Avatar 2 the colonisers are evil and their intentions are explained for why (they want to turn Pandora into a new settlement). The Marine Navi are perhaps one of the most accurate illustrations of what colonisation does (wear the skin of the colonised). There is no redeeming moment in which they try to inject "nuance" to this. As I write this, we are witnessing the same genocides which all of our people went through happen in front of us in Gaza. We see how there is a deliberate attempt to write this as a redeemable thing (just like all of our families history) or that the soldiers are 'just doing their job'. But it is clear when it comes to colonisation the job itself is evil. A2 for all its flaws did not downplay this which is a genuine miracle in the landscape of modern movies that they chose to take our side for once. I hope they do better, but like you said in the video, I am a realist as well when it comes to this.
in Palestine, people dressed up as Na'avi for their liberation movements, there are many articles about it, it is the #1 movie in the Global South for a reason, native "north americans" just think theyre the only indigenous people, they dont know the international Brown community loves Avatar and have invited and been financed by James Cameron for their protests
I think Cameron and Co did a lot better representing the Maori culture in the 2nd Avatar movie than they did with Native Americans in the first one. Hopefully that means they've learnt something, but I wonder if it could be because Maori culture is a step removed from Cameron personally, ie, a different indigenous culture than that of his home country. I'm Australian and speaking for myself, I find it much easier to listen to, read and relate to Native American history, stories and perspectives than indigenous Australian history, because there's a deep sense of guilt for what my ancestors did to Aboriginal Australians that complicates my feelings towards them today. Its hard to separate yourself from your cultural history living in a post-colonial nation where racist attitudes are the norm. I've been working on developing my understanding, as we all should, and I have become more comfortable sitting with my discomfort and ambiguous feelings, and my opinions have definitely changed as I have become more open to listening. It is hard to face up to invasion and genocide knowing that your racial ancestors knowingly did that to other people. It complicates your empathy for other people's suffering today when you know your race is directly responsible for trying to wipe them out. On some level, its like you dont want to understand because the culpability you feel for your ancestors' role in inflicting that trauma is just too much to bear. Resentment easily boils up when you know you weren't personally responsible, and yet people are still suffering the after-effects of that trauma to this day, so where does that leave me? I'm still processing the feelings I have about it but its an important process that all us whiteys need to go through, otherwise attitudes will never change and the "us and them" divide will still persist.
Awesome video mate, really enjoyed it 🙌
Excellent video! I do think Cameron's heart is in the right place... but I don't think he knows exactly what to do. He definitely views himself as an advocate... and yeah, Modern Society is addicted to watching and experiencing societies that are "worse off" than they are. (love the name Poverty Porn... but yeah, I find the whole genre appalling). There are unfortunately entire industries that exploit this where they take groups of college students and adults to "experience" this despair... but not actually help... but I don't think Cameron is quite that bad. I'm not trying to make light of anything you said, as it is all true and valid. Keep in mind too, he's abandoned Modern Americans and Canadians too... said multiple times in interviews... that's why he moved to New Zealand... of course, he has no qualms about exploiting the American film industry for its money... so does that make Avatar a Trojan Horse for Western Society? Basically saying "you would otherwise reject this message, so I will give it to you in a form you can accept and trust... until you grow to love it, and then I will open your mind to the possibilities of what is out there"... now what film does that sound like? Again, just a different perspective on Avatar... and maybe naïve... but what if some of the offensive choices in writing/casting, were intentionally done, not to outcast or silence Indigenous voices... but to infiltrate Western Society? I don't know the answer... but I have a hunch.
How I view Avatar, is quite literally a cry for help from Cameron. He sees a problem with the state of the current world, and he wants to start a discussion... a real discussion. Your video makes me very happy. My hope is that Indigenous people can use this franchise to their advantage. I'm not saying in a sense, to blindly support it (because you're absolutely right about how Cameron views himself, living the events of his own film)... but rather in a sense to use the world's interest in the Avatar franchise, and direct them to the proper outcome, you and so many others, myself included, so greatly desire... for every reason you state about missed opportunities, with involving Indigenous voices. I would love to see a director's cut of the film, with the original score, entirely in Na'vi language with subtitles.
My only interjection is in regard to the money... I'm not saying he isn't making money, but this film franchise is barely breaking even so far. The budgets are astronomical... but more importantly, the way films make money, does nothing but working against Avatar. It needs domestic dollars in the opening couple weeks... there is a great breakdown of how cinema makes its money... linked below.
czcams.com/video/DsLvCNFPPIs/video.html
But yeah, overall, outstanding video. I have faith for the franchise, because of people like yourself. It takes voices speaking up, but there's a caveat... again, I'm not saying openly or blindly embrace Avatar... but I am saying to do something like "hey lets talk... these films were an alright start, here's how we can make them better... here are resources, and direction."
Speaking as a white American... I think the reason Cameron sees this as his most personal film, is because most likely, he sees himself as Jake Sully. He's bumbling around in the forest, wanting to help... but no idea how. Avatar isn't exactly a White Savior, because it is that whimsical dream you speak of... but a dream of what exactly? In this case, it's of the Indigenous people (your people) saving/enlightening/guiding a floundering, confused western-society (my people), that has no idea how to behave... but their heart's in the right place. Jake doesn't save the Na'vi... they saved him. They took a Trojan Horse, and turned it into a weapon they could fully exploit to their advantage... the Indigenous do the saving... the white-guy is just a tool/asset they can use (in Jakes case, a highly trained soldier). Had Tsu'tey survived the battle, I firmly believe Jake wouldn't have become Chief... or even tried to... willingly insisting on handing that power to Tsu'tey. Avatar 2 continues this, portraying the Indigenous as nothing short of extraordinarily capable, excelling far beyond "western everything" in terms of community, values, moral understandings... and then you circle back to Cameron. Assuming he is speaking through this film, conveying a dream he has of what society could be... I think he is very much, the epitome of a "Jake"... a generic "every-man" character, who means well, has a good heart, but no idea how he's supposed to act... or yeah, what to say to people (that quote honestly makes me sick).
Where I believe we are at right now, in terms of his understanding, along the Avatar franchise... is when Naytiri smacks Jake across the face with her bow, knocking him to the ground... effectively saying "shut up, and listen" as the forest comes to life.
Everything you said is true, and correct, and I cannot tell you how incredible it is to hear your perspective.
Avatar was designed intentionally to start an honest discussion. My hope is that an actual, constructive, correct discussion can happen. That doesn't come from boycotts, or resentment... it comes from honest, genuine people like yourself, collectively presenting their views in a respectful manner, as you have done here.
Well done my friend, keep up the great work!
With any luck, the sequels will indeed make up for the shortcoming of the first films. Technically 3 is already in post-production, so it's a done deal... but 4, 5 and beyond have yet to be written or cast... and if I had to guess, I would say the plot will be the Na'vi "enlightening" and correcting the wrongdoings of the misguided "western" society... just a guess. Great video!
I only offer my perspective, not to tell you or anyone how to feel, but to have a discussion. I think Cameron is lost, and somewhat hopeless... and honestly, looking at the current state of the world, and the atrocities of the past... I can understand and relate to that. I don't have answers. I'm just a random person trying to decipher why someone would make a film franchise like Avatar, the way he did. It doesn't make sense... his interviews don't make sense... unless of course, it was made to start a greater, impactful, discussion.
This franchise can absolutely be salvaged, but you have to act fast. I don't know who you need to contact, but I'd start with every Indigenous Influencer, actor and studio in the business. Then, once you have your group together and ideas worked out, with multiple backup plans, you need to get ahold of the specific tribes and individuals who already have Cameron or Landau's contact information. John Landau is probably your easiest shot. Then don't let up. The key here is positivity for what "could be" along with support that their hearts are in the right place, and that you understand what they are trying to say, but ultimately falling short, and here's how we can remedy this... keep all the good, get rid of the bad, and redirect 4 and 5 to the path of greatness Cameron seeks... but properly this time.
I can't do it... I'm just a random white-guy who will buy a dozen tickets to whatever you come up with. Go, go, go!!!
Directors like James Cameron don't come around very often... and neither do franchises like Avatar. You have a once in a lifetime shot at the representation you seek.
You're not done fighting. You're not gone. Gather your army, contact John Landau. Blow his mind with your proposal, and work with him to polish it to a shine. Then he calls up Cameron and says "hey Jim, I've got something you're gonna love" and then Avatar 4 and 5 are executed flawlessly. You got this! But you need to hurry... you've got 6 months to 1 year tops, before Cameron finalizes the scripts for 4 and 5.
I can hope he finds it in himself to know when he is wrong and ask for help from indigenous people for his Avatar franchise.
It's clear that there's a lot of ways that this movie missed out on Indigenous voices and representation, but do you feel that the movie, along with its scale, has actually made things worse for that representation and people's public perceptions of natives?
from a non-indigenous perspective, it seems to me that it just encourages further erasure of indigenous voices and narratives. The franchise might seem like something that isn't worth taking seriously in the context of its 'indigenous representation' because of how surface-level, white-washed, and removed from reality it is. However, it's stories like this that just further push real indigenous people out of the picture of indigeneity in people's heads. Yt folks, especially those growing up with these types of films, are sure to think of indige folks as these surface-level, one-layer, 'historic' icons, and most especially irrelevant ones. When in pretty much any land you are currently living, you are surrounded by these people, and these people are alive and very real, despite how much our systems of power have tried to erase them.
I used to love the Avatar franchise, and I would be lying if, in some part of me, I don't still enjoy it for its sci-fi lore and wonder. However, as an adult who now sees it so critically, I struggle to take any of the quote, unquote 'activist' tropes in the story seriously. It's not serious, it's surface level. But you know what it does? It further perpetuates harm onto real indigenous communities in ways of white supremacy and anti-indige violence and erasure. For those who are non-indigenous like myself, please do everyone a favor and if you want to actually learn about indigenous peoples and their perspectives, don't watch Avatar for that. Please. Get real and support real indigenous voices and narratives. I promise you they're out there if you just try to listen and look. I really appreciate all the hard work this indige youtuber puts into his content and education. He is awesome. Please continue supporting his work as well as other indigenous voices!
@@maryamnelson8063 How is having elements of ones culture represented in a positive light in a big budget movie erasure? do only incredibly nuanced and complex representations, which Cameron was never trying to accomplish not promote erasure? What quantifiable, real world harm is Avatar doing? How is Avatar preventing indigenous voices from being heard? Can I not google "indigenous filmmakers" if I watch and enjoy Avatar? How is acting like all indigenous people have one single perspective and all agree Avatar is bad not itself incredibly racist? When did Cameron ever claim Avatar was trying to portray indigenous people's and their perspective and not trying to make a simple, action spectacle with messages about how we should save the environment and not kill each other over resources?
@Chris Barnett if Cameron didn't find it in himself to get more indigenous people involved in a film having relevant themes in his very expensive and popular film, what would make anyone else make any other choice.
@@angeliparraguirre7329 That didn't answer my question...
@@angeliparraguirre7329 I would agree this would be an issue if Cameron were trying to accurately portray a specific indigenous group, but he's not.
Plus, which indigenous voices do you want involved in the film? This film isn't about any specific indigenous group, it's about colonization so acting like any specific indigenous people get to represent all indigenous groups as if they are some monolith seems *profoundly* racist to me, yet I see this sentiment in leftist spaces all the time.
“Everyone kinda forgot about it” idk about that 😆 I am thoroughly uninterested in the Avatar franchise but since it’s original release I don’t think I went 6 months without seeing a tweet referencing it go viral.
"No one talks about Avatar. I don't see anyone talking about Avatar. There's no cultural impact" said by millions for the last 13 years without noticing the irony
@Chris Barnett Ikr. It's popular enough and has quite the dedicated fanbase. Not everyone loves the film, it has had tons of parodies and criticism, but that doesn't equal a lack of relevance.
@@chrisbarnett5303 so it's cultural impact was not having a cultural impact
@@redmage5251 how many things that had no "cultural impact" have such a rabid hatedom that feels the need to constantly bring up that they had no cultural impact? You know what movie had no cultural impact? Clash of the Titans. There's not hundreds of youtube videos trying to take that movie down a peg, no 14 hour mauler or critical drinker hateslog, because it had no cultural impact and no one talks about it, unlike Avatar, which many people talk about. One example of people talking about Avatar is you, here in a comment section on youtube, talking about a movie that supposedly had zero cultural impact.
Here's a test. Show people pictures of Jake and Neytiri, say 'Pandora" "blue cat aliens" "hair sex" or even "dances with wolves in space" and I guarantee you most people will know you are talking about Avatar. Kind of weird most people will get those references when it had no cultural impact, huh?
@@redmage5251 Not even getting into the massive effect it had on film production and made it so every studio releases movies in 3D, or all the games and movies influenced by it, or the theme park being super popular...
i could barley watch the 1st 1, i was crying too hard! Never going to put myself thru that again! i balled DEATH ☠️ OF CALVARY
My people the Lenca of Honduras tbh when I saw this movie ,I was like oh so it’s about the Americas and out people but then it got even deeper and, I’m just like nah!
The first film starts with concept of a wounded ex-marine (wounded warrior angle) being sent to replace his brother "tom" who was killed on future earth for the "paper in his wallet" he is hired by global mining cooperation called the RDA basically in the core role of being a hired Gun, He is separated from a group of scientists , Meets Neytiri , who can speak English because of her interaction with said scientist who ran a School (but hated the corporations take on what her mission was) is forced into a deep inner ethical battle with what he sees going on, creating many questions that only he can find an answer to , goes through a powerful rite of passage experience.. coming face to face with the roots of deep trauma that is being impacted on the Omaticaya clan by "some" of his own people ,steps forwarded into leadership role. to fight back against the oppressive arm of this colonizing force .. but there is more running underneath. sat down and talked to a number of people in the indigenous community including talking to the clan mother of eastern band of the Abenaki , and I really need to talk to many more people, many men saw it it as being a just another Dances with wolves like story and reflected they did not like all the White savior angles. women leaders stated there are a lot of sublime recognition layers in there that we have not seen before in these kinds of Hollywood films before, the bigger question is where did this story internally originate from ? gut feelings must have played a role on some of these layers .. 13 years pass. then Avatar: way of water is released, What is one of the first things the lead charter does in that film ,, Reassign the leadership role back (with the advice of the women leaders in the community on there feelings as to who would truly make a good person for placement into this leadership role) restoring it back to a longstanding member of Clan with direct ancestry. and then leaving to Avoid drawing the fire of Returning Forces who are out for "revenge" after he learns of there return by seeing there "ships" in the sky ,, There are some reflective layers running in here that do touch sublimely on deep layers employed historically by colonizing "institutions" (They are aware of The doctrine of discovery) the use of term "demon" --->and the action of demonizing .. "They have Demon Blood" they are not even Real Navi , "but"the fantasy Na'vi do not have Demons within the internal beliefs of construted idology. where did they come into contact with the use of that phrase ? Its a good chance they had it used on them by the colonizers and refected it back at them.. (our nations body politic makes use of Blood Quantum in its recognition layers and its very diversive internal impact, in some cases reaction to this has seeded very serious infighting within diffrent indigenous community's. a very upsetting thing to see happen knowing we are in huge part to blame for this. . But there is also an Reflective "likeness object" referenced that looks an awful lot like a set of Rosary beads , But in "reflective" use refers to something called a "Songcord" The songcord (Na'vi name: waytelem) is a --> mnemonic device used by Na'vi individuals as well as entire clans for recounting information, stories, and mythology (there words defining this object) , Its Reflective of the use of a Wampum string , and yes they directly say that in the definition listing, look under trivia james-camerons-avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Songcord He is taking an object commonly used by members of a prominent colonizing institution, that every indigenous community is innately aware of. "The dominating instution of the Catholic church". an object we internally recognize (Ah that looks like a rosary) but its reflective meaning adds an associative "layer" That our eyes really have not seen before. it real use is to hold the core memory's of vital events of each child in the family.. where did they get the idea reflect these layers into the story ? I do know a lot of thought went into these story layers.. I am going to mention a few names people in the indigenous community should be well aware of..A Deeply respected peacemaker "Chief" (Jake) Swamp, ."The Jigonsaseh" mother of nations (Haudenosaunee history) What nation was she originally from ? , jumping to another cultural example.. Sawubona , A Zulu language Recognition phrase. whats its core meaning ? What would drive someone with no claim to any indigenous lineage to dig into these internal roots and learn about those layers ? For the next film, What topic is tackled due to negative indigenous feedback in the third film ? the Hollywood stereotypes of noble savage syndrome ? The core question I asked is how well does the film's Mirror storytelling really reflect upon the layers of conciliation, and conflict resolution and truly hope for more direct indigious involvement within the team responsable for these layers , Cameron has refected upon the deep importance of being authentic, The core questions as to how can you do that without direct councel with the peoples at the "source" roots of the refelction.. and yes there is awareness that diffrent nations have there "own" very unique layers of people and personhood idenity and can not be all lumped into one mix. How can we address internal root issues embedded into roots of idology that inpact our way of thinking like genesis 1:28 (Steven Newcomb indigious Scholar refects his concerens here on this topic). czcams.com/video/Wo8LpsfIr-4/video.html
I certainly wont pretend that james cameron is a saint. He has been a bit of a dick to people for most of his life, and talking to anyone who has worked within the crew of his previous movies can tell you, he can be a bit of a dictator, and by his own words, a bit of a capitalist. His way or the highway. Today he acknowledges his poor behavior in the past, hes had a bit of a change of perspective over time, and he has changed the way he treats people significantly, seemingly for the better. I also think some of the things he says are easy to misinterpret, and i wish we could have an indigenous person directly challenge him on some various things hes said, why he said those things, and what he feels about it the responses to it, also allowing him to hear how indigenous people feel about it. But thats a whole other thing.
I am not an indigenous person. Im a white guy. I cant tell indigenous people that the way they feel about avatar is wrong, or that they should like it. I understand that the way avatar depicts its alien proxy for indigenous people can definitely seem like "woo woo nature magic man" stuff, and the history of these kinds of tropes, and ill touch on that a bit later. I also feel have a perspective on the movies that i dont see reflected by many people, for better or worse.
I just want to start by addressing the sideways video about Avatars score. When i first saw the video a few years ago i completely believed it to be true, and took it as solid evidence that avatar is a not so great movie. I have since changed my perspective. A lot of the narrative laid out in that video is has no evidence to support it. According to the people who actually worked on the score, things didnt go down exactly the way sideways said they did. Some of the claims sideways made seem to have just come out of thin air. James cameron didnt say "i want this soundtrack to be alien, and not sound western at all" then just reject all the non western ideas and just go with a western soundtrack anyway. His intention from the start was to have james horner write a score in the style of james horner, but to also incorporate alien sounds and ideas, bringing in an ethnomusicologist to come up with those sounds. He had her make a bunch of material, which he then picked from to incorporate into the score. She was disappointed that not everything she made ended up getting used in the end product, but she ultimately thinks the end product was good. This was the plan from the start. He didnt have her make a bunch of alien music that was supposed to be the score, then colonize and reject it. This is a narrative that was completely fabricated by sideways based on information that does not support that conclusion. I cant find any sources that actually support this claim. Whether or not james cameron made the right choice in choosing a more western sounding score is up to the person watching.
As for the movie itself, its message, themes, and how well it delivers its message, i think the perspective i have come to hold is one i havent heard much before. I understand why people object to the fact that protagonist and "hero" of the story that is ultimately about the struggle of indigenous people is.... a white guy. One could argue that the story has been colonized by said white savior, defeating the purpose of the anti colonial messages of the film. My objection to this idea lies in what i think the purpose of this movie actually is, and who its messages are for. Indigenous people dont need to be shown the horrific atrocities they suffered at the hands of white people. Native americans dont need reminded about how they were genocided and forced off their land so white colonizers could take it for their own. Indigenous cultures already what happened to them and who is at fault. Less developed nations also dont need to be told about what the american empire is doing to them to this day. Iraq, chile, the philippines, etc, etc. The united states capitalist empire makes victims of the entire world.
The people who really need the messages are the western colonizers living in the imperial core. And i think jake, the generic, western white guy is the perfect "avatar" so to speak, to bring the average westerner on a journey that ultimately leads to them having a visceral, emotional connection with a story in which an average american dude, who doesnt think to much about the state of the world, or how we got their learns to see the error in what his people are doing, and has a complete change in perspective, in which he switches from being completely complacent with the status quo, helping the corporation to displace indigenous people to steal resources, to rejecting his own people and culture. Rejecting the status quo, and having a genuine spiritual awakening, learning to see the beauty of the natural world, the profound connectedness of all life on the planet, and the horrific tragedy in what is being done to it by his own people.
My being a white guy, and especially now in my adult life that i have developed particularly radical anti capitalist beliefs, this movies explicit anti capitalist, and anti imperialist message resonated with me deeply. I dont view it as a perfectly accurate depiction of native peoples lives or cultures. Its a fantastical sci fi movie, and the aliens, while clearly proxies for various indigenous peoples, are clearly not intended to be a one to one with any indigenous culture. I understand if indigenous people may not like the depiction of the aliens as perfect beings in harmony with nature, as this is a trope used in somewhat poor taste in many movies in the past. Personally, i excuse this depiction by the fact that it is really a just fantastical, over the top sci fi movie on the whole. A lot of things are exaggerated for dramatic effect. It is an intentional exaggeration of reality. Nearly all the characters in this movie are a little over the top in one way or another, and i think all of it ultimately serves the story in an epic sci fi action adventure movie. Personally, being that my personal worldviews have started to inch closer to that of pantheism, and a literal connection between all living things in the universe, i like the mystical/spiritual depiction of the navi. It resonates with my views of reality.
Ultimately, i think this movie is meant to make the average person living in western civilization fall in love with pandora (which is ultimately a proxy for earth) and have front row seats to the atrocities that western capitalist empires are carrying out for the sake of profits. The purpose is to show us that capitalism is killing our mother, and we need to fight back to stop it.
Could it have been done better? Probably. Would it have been better to have more indigenous involvement in the writing and depiction of indigenous people? Probably, but i also just dont think james camerons film-making can ever work that way. He did have input from a lot of indigenous people and actual experts in all kinds of aspects of the worldbuilding, and the culture of the navi, but the script and story are just a.... James cameron has the final say on everything in the story, for better or worse, and whether that is a detriment to the movie is for anyone to say.
But the important question is did it achieve what james cameron set out to do? I think it did. I believe it planted seeds in people. People who often dont think about the state of the world and how we got here, but just have a vague idea of how things went down, or may not even know about what the west is still doing to the rest of the world. People were forced to confront the reality of western imperialism, which honestly, while the characters were a little over the top, and the events dramatized, the depiction of how this stuff goes down is pretty realistic.
I think this is part of the reason avatar hasnt had much "cultural impact" as so many people claim. Avatar is too real. Its showing us the ugly reality of our lives. Unlike every other blockbuster today, it doesnt maintain or reinforce the status quo. It condemns the status quo. Spits on it. To engage with avatar on a deeper level than just "forgettable scifi movie full of generic tropes" means to confront the reality of our existence.
People are still holding on to capitalism because it is all they have ever known. We in america are told every day of our lives from the moment we are born that "the system isnt perfect, but its the best one weve got", and fed lies about how every other system just leads to starvation and slave camps. In reality, there are more people suffering and starving within capitalist societies than basically any other. We just have a few rich countries exploiting all the rest and pretending were rich because capitalism just works so well.
People cant accept that capitalism is broken at its core. A system that prioritizes short term profit and accumulation of resources and wealth over all else will inevitably result in a society that cares only about profit, and the accumulation of wealth at all costs. It is a system the forces us apart, and forces us to see everyone else as competition to be squashed, so the individual can rise to the top and consume more than anyone else.
Again, I cant tell indigenous people theyre wrong if they dont like the movie. I dont have a heritage that was nearly wiped out by white people. My ancestors, and my country are the ones who did the wiping. I personally really like avatar for what it is, and i feel like its message is conveyed through a vessel that prioritizes making the audience feel things about the events on screen more than anything else. It planted a seed in me, as a young boy in 2009. I have grown and changed perspectives multiple times throughout my life, but avatar will always hold a special place in my heart.
I appreciate the work you put into this comment and I agree with your overall sentiment.
Malcolm P.L. brought me here
To me Cameron saying it's his most personal film, when it's about a people he is not a part of, is the root of all of the problems with this franchise. I say that as someone who is white, who has been the well meaning White friend. It is natural to be compelled by interesting stories from other cultures, and to feel inspired to make work based on them, but White artists need to learn some humility and know when to admit that they don't know everything.
Honestly I wouldn't have an issue with James Cameron's Avatar if he didn't make it out to be bigger than it is. But he's trying to connect it to all of these big, real world issues when the content in his work just doesn't have the substance to back it up.
22:40 he never heard of furries.
Still here and still saving your culture. But I like that you brought it back around. I think and thought, as non indigenous, the same as many others. But I try never to attribute to malice that which is done through ignorance! Which was basically what you said. Some good, but some bad! We humans are messy things, lol. Cameron's intentions may have been good, but tempered by his bias and of course, capitalism! Excellent review! Add in, if I remember correctly, in China, they kept trying to, after theaters were packed for a couple weeks, replace it with a somewhat popular 'Confucius' movie. But it just didn't work. Again, great, objective review!👍💖💙🥰✌
Every time someone tries to talk about race and Avatar, the conversation just gets shut down. Especially on Reddit.
Fascinating that the oar, koha, will be seen as possession... They own it, it is theirs... Māori give reciprocal gifts, it's to be returned, enhanced by each others mana, or a return koha given. The oar to me is the same as Cliffs input, it's given with intent to give back, but the film makers see it as given to give their production value,bit us there's, that's our western mindset sadly.
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It’s very sad that the best native/indigenous representation we have is from a niche barely represented or recalled Dreamworks movie from the 90s back when they did 2D. Spirit: Stallion of the Cimmeron is in my opinion has the greatest rep for a Native American I have ever seen and Little Creek is such a small part of that film because it’s all about the horses really but at least there’s no white savior complex that’s seen positive, the villain is a lot more complex than just “I want money and I want to destroy all the goody goody natives!” And the story telling is excellent. On the whole Dreamworks is more accurate when it tries to do other cultures than Disney and Disney is flip floppy, they made Encanto and Raya within the same period but one is so culturally right it hurts and one is so culturally wrong it hurts. Dreamworks is more, on the whole, less one film will be good rep and one film will be bad rep. They have so many strong well meaning women of color and though they tend to fall into the trap of under-dressing and making those women very obviously desirable in form it is still good, some of them are the only rep of their kind. Animation is the only place I’ve seen at least attempts at positive native rep and as usual it can be borderline offensive but the intentions aren’t to be bad, they are ignorant at best. The closest thing we have in mainstay animation that’s decent is Brother Bear, but because of reasons we don’t linger too much in that culture, nor are the characters played by natives(at least the main ones aren’t), the music isn’t even form that culture, and they don’t say where they are or who they are. Second closest would be John Redcorn in King of the Hill, but often he is almost a pseudo-antagonist and though he is called out for this, very preachy. At least he’s played by an actual native though and has some genuine care out into his character.
Didn’t James Cameron grow up in Ontario? It makes me think about how his comment about Indigenous people was influenced by how society treats us as a whole, especially during those times
edit: Ontario, not northern ontario my bad
They used music from apocalyptic too
If it was all indigenous peple of the earth, where's the Sámi?
aaaye Navajo Brother!
Bro this was nice and comprehensive. I really appreciate a balanced opinion on the matter. I didn't think I was going to watch this whole thing, lol but you got me! haha it was enjoyable to stay till the end. Haribol
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