Why Avatar has the Most Ironic Soundtrack of All Time
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- čas přidán 30. 03. 2020
- What happens when the soundtrack and the film accidentally tell the exact same story?
You get Avatar: The Last Bluebender
Twitter: / sideways440
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Sources and Links:
Dr. Bryant's write-up of her experience
ethnomusicologyreview.ucla.ed...
Dr. Bryant's interview on myouterspace's youtube channel
• Ethnomusicalogist Wand...
Notanothermusichistorycliche's blog post about the Pythagorean Comma
notanothermusichistorycliche....
12tone's video on the same subject
• Is Music Really A Univ...
The complete list (in order) of World Music examples that I used
• Kulning - Calling home...
• Thsukhi - folk dance o...
• Vietnamese work song -...
• Burundi Girls sing son...
• 78th Fraser Highlander...
• Kalenda maya - villema...
• Yelli - Baka women "yo...
• Maryam Akhondy sings t...
• Giacinto Scelsi - Tre ...
• Värttinä - Lasetus
• Three connected songs
• Yurok Brush Dance Demo...
As well as the vocalist examples
• Le Mystere des Voix Bu...
• Yaffa Yarkoni יפה ירקו...
• Nina Burmi | Mishra Bh...
• Nami Nami - Traditiona...
And the clip of Tony Hinnigan that I used
• Apocolypto Sessions 20...
And the clip of the Gamelan ensemble that I used
• Sound Tracker - Gamela...
let me know if I missed anything, there was a lot of information in this video and I want to make sure everyone gets cited! - Hudba
the fact that they actually called it unobtainium will never not be funny to me
Only for English speaking people
what so funny about it
Might not be the most original name but it’s not like he invented it. The term has existed in sci-fi for a while, there’s even a Wikipedia page for it.
@@SailorDoggo Dude, everyone knows english. It is ridiculous for us as well.
@@user-zv2vm8bd8h You are delusional
"From Oklahoma to South Dakota" being used to describe a breadth of all people is unbelievably funny.
Sooo... Nebraska and (reaches deep into memory of flyover states) Kansas?
lol it's like, a chunk of the plains
@@blackburn1111 Cultures spanning across such vast areas as... a portion on the USA.
@@TheSpacecraftX i know right? So dumb. I seriously want to hear those demos they made. It sounds so awesome.
To me it's just some random place in USA to another random place in USA.
"Something that could be understood by all from Oklahoma to South Dakota."
I love this statement. Something meant to be global actually being restricted to a vertical strip of 700 miles.
I'm picturing audiences all over the world scratching their heads and confusedly looking around at each other in theaters when the scene plays, while people in Nebraska and Kansas are openly weeping.
I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as James Cameron's genius wit unfolds itself on their cinema screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂
I'm sorry, that's what sprout up in my mind when I read your last sentence. You're right though! It's so idiotic that he actually just had American audiences in mind. Ugh, Hollywood..
When I heard that I audibly reacted "Tha- that's not all. Wha-?"
ok but no one cares about that lmao
so it was aimed at native americans?
@@ScythPlayzok, but literally everyone does?🤨
"Keep your ears open to unusual sounds. Things that you may find a little uncomfortable now, with a little bit of listening, some of those may become the favourite sounds in your musical world." What a great closing statement from her. There's so much beautiful music we could discover if we'd be a little bit more adventurous.
I'm now sad and mourning for a culture that doesn't exist
James Cameron: *wants unrecognisable music*
James Horner: *makes unrecognisable music*
James Cameron:
ö
Hur hur. Original meme.
Hua Hua, original comment making fun of original comment
Ari Ibarra You are the problem you are pointing me out to be.
@@arifall3n mum @billrich dad please stop fighting
It is possible that the original music did sound like shit 🤷♂️ I mean there are a lot of different types of music out there and each has bangers and garbage, who knows 🤷♂️
All that world building, and they still used papyrus font for the title...
@Survivor #1776 Hey, what do you mean by this, did they re-do the logo from the first film or have you found one from the sequel? I'd love to see
@@cxdxvxr reference to the logo minimalizing meme that zoomers insist is funny I think?
@@thekneesbee Still looks like crap
@@STOCKHOLM07 how? it looks better than it did before so.
@@chaaaargh The bar was that low.
My favorite part of Avatar 2 is how they threw away the entire alien language they invented for the first film to have everyone speak English the whole time
That’s so funny because I was talking with my dad and I pointed out how the Metkayina clan kept picking on the family for being “hybrids” yet they’re literally speaking English lol
Edit: yes I’m aware they’re technically speaking na’vi, but regardless it still comes off weird lol so yeah! *no one come for me*
they dont speak english, it just shows it from sully's pov of him understanding them
@@cityinsect It still feels cheap. While from a production side of things, you must treat the audience like they are stupid and having subtitles the entire time isn't ideal, it's also not ideal to throw away storybuilding.
@@mynameisambertoo7379 there's still plenty of the language spoken throughout the movie, and it wouldn't be wise to have the entire movie covered with subtitles
@@mynameisambertoo7379 They didn't throw away anything. There's a small scene showing that Jake understands the language so well that it's basically second nature. Plus, it would be stupid to make a movie entirely in a fake language. In the Lord of the Rings, none of the races spoke english, including humans, so Tolkien basically "translated" it for us.
This video perfectly explains why Avatar paradoxically feels both “well-made” & “poorly-made” at the same time! - The ppl in charge of the worldbuilding & production put a lot of care into their work. The man in charge of everything ignored their efforts.
Its not that he ignored the work. Not everything you try is working out
@@vanessag368Yeah, not every single piece of world building is going to fit into the movie. It's remarkable how much Cameron managed to fit into the movie while still telling a cohesive story and keeping the runtime to a mere 3 hours.
@@marshallscotthey could’ve just made a show at that point with all this world building involved
James cameron wanted to fully show the avatar universe that he made up. for that he needs money, a lot of it. So for him to actually make all the stuff he wants, he needs to be very successful. So while he will include as much of the lore as possible, he will not try and use things that will probably reduce the audience. A completely new style of music would do that, as would completely alien life. Idk about you but I wanna listen to nice music while watching a movie, not some uber realistic stuff that sounds weird, just like I want to be able to look at the animals and go "that's a neat looking horse" instead of "what the fuck is that eldritch abomination" hence I would not watch movies that are centered around such things and James cameron loses profit, therefore less avatar made, therefore james cameron sad.
It's genuinely tragic how much imagination was discarded in order to appeal to the common denominator
Not to mention, all money and research in the logo using "papyrus" font.
Dude watch SNL they did a skit with a papyrus font and its fucking hilarious watch its soo good
The papyrus font is amazing and beautiful
@@1-bitbraincelle981 Ryan Gosling crushed that episode. Every. Sketch.
Fittingly, I've seen Papyrus used to evoke South American, African, Asian, Australian and Norse cultures. It's the typeface hacks use when they need a quick and free "universally ethnic" font. So it's perfect for Avatar.
@@strikerbowls791 yeah, so it is Comic Sans, but every font has something to tell, comic sans its meant to be a "comic like" font, originaly meant for children in microsoft bob.
papyrus is extremly overused, is not a bad font, not at all, but it already come to me as LAZY design, is like using "Trajan" for every single medieval film.
This just sounds like the biggest waste of somebody’s time in history, they put in SO MUCH EFFORT. and Cameron was like no.
He literally said: no ❤️
At least they got paid for all this work. Not as good as letting their artistic voices they were paid for actually be heard, but he didn't write them a hot check or anything.
@@RoninCatholic yeah cause money is everything
@@dr_lubaba Money is the most important part about doing a job for hire. If you want to pay me to grill a burger only to promptly toss it in the trash and make a different burger yourself, you've wasted your time, my time, all the money you spent on my labor, and the ingredients of the burger but since I was compensated for my time I'm only _mildly_ insulted.
Money isn't everything, but it's still a lot.
@@RoninCatholic That's the story of every unused (aka "rejected") score ever written.
Seeing this video, I’ve got two thoughts:
Sideways is not being snarky, he is genuinely pissed at the colossal amount of wasted potential in such an ironic sense.
Secondly, I hope these demos can see the light of day. They from the sound of it seem amazing.
Ikr!? It'd be spectacular ✨
It's a bit of both. He seriously thinks James Cameron did Avatar for $$$. It's clear Cameron has passion for filmmaking but go off on money making potential.
There’s a song by TheFatRat and Maisy Kay called ‘The Calling’. It uses some of the lyrics from the weaving song, and I feel like it perfectly shows how they could combine the speech with western musical concepts
I haven't watched the movie yet but i hope they brought back some of the horner's work that "seemed too alien". It would be a shame if it got lost completely
@@gravoxxavox7849I thought that song felt like avatar
Cameron: But I don’t like the alien music you made!
Horner and Bryant: Then why did you ask for it???
"From Oklahoma to South Dakota"
James Cameron: Ah yes multiculture
He might as well have said from North Carolina to South Carolina.
I don't want to sound racist here or anything, and I ABSOLUTELY love multiculture... I want to make that clear! ... but just imagine if there were other cultures outside Oklahoma and South Dakota... It cannot happen of course, but... just imagine! It is weird, I know, but just give it a try!... Let our imagination fly free!!! Wow!!!
that's the most " 'merican " thing ever
I’m guessing he meant the long way around but judging by everything else I doubt it
Oklahoma's Tiger King is truly exotic and otherwordly.
Forget the snyder cut I want the Avatar music cut
LITERALLY! I want a cut fully scored by Bryant and Horner so bad, oh my god
+ !
We can annoy them enough to do it like the Snyder cut
#ReleaseTheHornerCut
Doesn't even have to be the full movie. Just a concept album would be nice.
The way directors blame the audience for these sorts of simplifications is really irritating.
How do they know we wouldn't like or understand it if we never get a chance to see it in the first place?
We do it through our money vote, it's just that both Avatars have shown to be extremely profitable so they take it to make more stuff like that. If you want to hear more unique soundtracks, I guess we have to make the Dune sequel a blockbuster success.
@@thepeanuts55But the primary reason the film did well was the CGI. The story is blatantly unoriginal, the acting is okay at best, never really challenging the actors, but that didn't matter.
The music could've been alien and it wouldn't have made a difference in the profits.
It’s kinda wild but in a sense that’s their job. Good directors get people who are really good with at their craft and inspire them to make art. Then the director comes in and formats,tweaks, etc to what they made into coherent cohesive marketable content. and that’s the kicker- the designers don’t talk with investors…the directors do. So if you’re trying to convince someone with money that an audience will like it for the purpose to give money in advance? You are going to do your best to know what’s “marketable”. Now is this a good way to make art? Not really. But that’s the system productions are made from.
@@AlX-Ander Bullshit. Plenty of movies have great CGI and don't make a fraction of Avatar. For example- Dune and Bladerunner 2049. Great CGI, middling box office profits. Avatar speaks to people on a deep level even if it doesn't for you.
Just like when the show runners from The Witcher blamed their incompetent writing to the audience stupidity.
I'm so glad you put the part where Eywa sends wildlife charging into battle to help.
The score in that scene absolutely yanked me out of the moment. It was so emotional and then suddenly it felt so... Goofy?
It was so out of place and seeing this now, it makes sense why
Probably one of my least favourite moments because the music just doesn't match for that instant, shame cause of the direct next scene with neytiris passionate shouting is acted so well
@@birdienator7377 Yes!! The score could have elevated that scene and made it even MORE perfect, but instead it was a cartoonish moment. So unfortunate.
i had that too, i was so 'in the moment' till i heard that score and was just dissappointed
Wow I disagree, I've seen this movie dozens of times and never noticed this
Wow the music elevated the triumphant moment of The Pandorians!
*“This is not what nonwestern music sounds like. This is what western audiences think nonwestern music sounds like”*
That part
Abigail Stein I make African music and I can assure you that the world does not know what it sounds like. They always make it easier for people by gentrification
@@MODIRWA I'm an Indian classical singer, and whenever I hear Indian music in Hollywood or even western CZcams channels they always use some stereotypical music which sounds nothing like our music but still western people think that's how indian classical music is, and hence nobody bothers to corrects them
@@indragarg2857 I like Raga Piloo😊
Almost like the soundtrack is just as casually racist as the entire movie.
"There's literally nothing that sounds more european than brass" ... Well, never thought about that, but yeah hahahaha
Also strong European conquests/imperialism connotations. Our armies used bugles/brass, fifes, and drums. For centuries those marching bands, etc, were probably feared by local/indigenous populations! (just a guess, but I'd be running in the opposite direction if in their place!)
I can't remember his name but that's why the guy who did the music for the Battlestar Galactica reboot specifically avoided using the most commonly used orchestral sections, brass and strings, to make the world feel more alien.
I mean jazz is a thing. Can’t tell me a jazz bone solo sounds too traditionally European lol. I agree, just joking around
I think brass just became very popular for general "royal" connotations even when places are non-European. Take for instance Black Panther, you hear a lot of brass in the score for the shots of Wakanda. Would've been nice to introduce more native sounds but they weren't felt strongly enough.
ccricers but that connotation is because of Western influence
I am convinced, utterly convinced if they had let the soundtrack be the alien experimentation it could’ve been, this movie would’ve been powerful for a far better reason
Now I want to hear Hans Zimmers work with the ethnomusicologists. He's demonstrated with the DUNE soundtrack he's very capable of making something entirely alien work
No he hasn't. It doesn't sound alien. It sounds like a mash of loud bass sounds with a cliched wailing woman and a duduk thrown in the mix.
@@FranticAnimations well at least it's not western
@@alexbustamante6532 Also, "at least it's not western". Dune is absolutely western sounding, chucking in a few non-western instruments and throwing in drones doesn't mean it's not a modern western score that we've heard before.
@@FranticAnimations well what's your definition of something being non-western then? Non-diationical music? Microtonal? The use of pentatonic scales? Complex polyrhythms? Mongolian singing is often used in modern western movies so does that make it now part of the western cultural imaginary? No. I get that soundscapes and synthetic textures are inherently part of the modern media musical vocabulary but Zimmer's combination of synthesis with non-orchestral instruments is definitely"exotic". This isn't an original approach to scoring of course, however, his end result is completely different to anything that I've heard before. I don't know how much you know about synthesis but creating deep and compelling sound textures is such a complicated process. Saying they're just simple synthetic drones is a gross oversimplification.
@@FranticAnimations I'd like you to tell me a movie with a comparable score. I've thought about other major composers that I love but which haven't done anything quite like Dune. Gudnadottir, for instance, killed it with "Joker", but given that she's a cellist, her cello was the prominent feature above the synthetic textures. Goransson's "Tenet" is a demonstration of the insane possibilities of synthesis. I love how he keeps everything within the same aesthetic too, but he has weak lyrical themes. Max Richter is a contemporary composer that constantly combines synthesis with stringed instruments and Johansson's "Arrival" does an incredible job at combining choirs and strings with synthetic atmospheres. As much as I love all of them, notice how none went beyond the synthetic atmosphere plus traditional string orchestra combination. Zimmer went full synth/folklore. If you couldn't find this combination appealing it's fine, but I assure you then that Horner's original music would've seem horrendous to you. Zimmer used some augmented scales that are literally considered to be exotic, but Horner seemed to be heading into full microtonal territory which is further still.
James Cameron: I want it to sound non-western,something never heard before
**it sounds literally alien,something nobody heard before**
James Cameron: **surprised Pikachu.jpg**
Pbbt
No! Make it make Christian again!!
@@EllieKimberley don't joke about that
Mm&Peter's Lifestyle it’s funny
@@lurkenvoncurken518 I'm not forcing you dude i just want to spread Christ to people
I definitely read “iconic”, not “ironic” in the title and was thoroughly confused for a long time
Yeah, me too. First I didn't even want to watch this video, I was like "okay there were a couple nice-sounding songs there, but iconic?", but then I read it again and this was some very good content.
Iconically Ironic
Same, i was very confused
@@TheHalogen131 shit im only reading this mid video and only now realising it is ironic. fuck.
Katy Out n About I also thought if was iconic until I read your comment lol
Coming back to this after the Way of Water and Jake Sully (James Cameron) has almost completely americanised the Na'Vi. Especially his kids
COME ON BRO. SURE CUZ
@@SuperSucc69 just heard we are getting another avatar movie, can’t wait to hear bro 8292923 times
@@uquko6292 Right. Such a waste of potential.
@@uquko6292 oh we're getting more than just a... second sequel. i'm pretty sure cameron wants this franchise to have maybe 4 or 5 movies to it (i wanna say 5 but i could be wrong). we've got the first and second... get ready for more bros in an alien's vocabulary for years to come!
Yeah ! He spent the entire first movie learning to integrate into a culture that wasn't his own, focusing on listening to each other and harmony with nature and all that, only to turn around and become AMERICAN MILITARY DAD n°1548, and impose strict patriarchy over his family
The irony about the tree song is that the moment you played the first note i remembered it all. It had such beautiful feeling and a uniqueness that i loved. And now i find out THERE WAS MORE THAT WE DIDNT GET!!!!? If the whole movie was like that I'd probably like it more! I might even love it. But absolutely I'd respect it!!!!
Also I'm from the US and i dont know the difference between Oklahoma and South Dakota
:( He didnt even make a version of it to hear for people .
As a linguist, the creation of the Na’vi language from absolute scratch, is so fucking cool. I cannot even fathom having to create an entirely new grammatical structure from scratch
@Zofia Graham I'm no linguist but while working on a story I did come up with quite an interesting writing system for my fictional civilization to use, heavily based on Chinese but with its own flavor. I thought about integrating it into the story in such a way that a reader might perhaps learn bits and pieces of it as they read along so that they can interpret it by themselves later down the line. Grammar is actually the easy part, I'd be much more concerned about the phonology since I'm much more eyes than ears or mouth and I just don't know much about this stuff.
Yeah, it's a surprisingly common 'hobby'/project for authors and fiction creators to partake in. I've tried it a couple times - obviously I failed, but that's because of my lack of discipline and determination. It's hard, but there are a ways to classify sounds, words, and sentences into graphs. The hardest part is coming up with your own dictionary though, so that's why most have to have some sort of professional background in linguistics and language studies to have a good grasp on it.
Dude conlanging is such an underrated art form, lots of creativity, hard work and knowhow goes into it. Much respect to the conlangers of the world.
Zofia Graham I have heard of it and looked into it? I didn’t say I hadn’t heard of it
@@lewisjwr She didn't say you've never seen it. She just recommended it.
Edit: no
And suddenly I'm depressed at the amount of music that no one has ever heard before and no one ever will.
Ah yes, My favourite, Listening fatigue followed by an existential crisis :)
It’s James Horner. You would have heard this music somewhere before lol. (he still was a legend)
NO. This music will see the light of day someday, if I have anything to say about it.
I really wish i could hear the music
Same here.
God, imagine if the entire movie had instead been scored in this blend-of-cultures style instead of the Hollywood blockbuster style - or if they'd switched between one and the other depending on whose POV the camera was following or some other thing where it supported the narrative. People would have talked about it for decades as a feat of science and art.
What a waste of work.
I mean, you are still here... talking about it
@@JT-cx2ev as a fucking dissapointment
@@JT-cx2ev not as a feat of science and art, though.
Eh…the soundtrack they ended up using is absolutely gorgeous, one of Horner’s best. It does sound quite unique too, but familiar enough to be relatable. I don’t think a difficult-to-digest soundtrack would have been appropriate for a Hollywood blockbuster
@@arachosia
Of course not. You can't conciliate profit with revolutionary media. Even when you put something just mildly progressive, you already get a bunch of reactionaries whining and calling for boycotts.
It is sad to find out about this because all of the different or 'alien' sounds and songs where actually my favourite parts of the movie, they sounded very intimate and spiritual and made me really emotional.
Now im disappointed, i want to hear THE ALIEN MUSIC.
My God, it could be soo much better. I want hear this music!
czcams.com/video/hAAlDoAtV7Y/video.html
@@johannengelhardt5885 thanks
czcams.com/video/L4bZRIwI-QA/video.html some of this is sung in navi its something i guess just not very much.
SAME DEAR GAWD
Ive gotten into fandoms for less but hearing all abt this loreand all abt thework they did and spent
FUCK I MAKE OCS AND IM WORKIN ON MAKIN ALIEN WORLDS FOR A COMIC AND IDKILLLL TO HAVE TJIS MUCH FULL BACK LORE OMG
AND THEN THE MAIN GUY SAID NAH MAKE IT MORE NORMAL!?! U SPENTVALMOST 300MILLION DOLLARS ON NOT NORMAL ON LITERAL ALIEN
I
JUST
AGDHGCHGDGHC
*dies internally*
As a creator myself tht sounds so ridiculously heartbreaking
I read the title as “iconic”, not “ironic”, and was confused the whole video about why he had a negative tone
I don't feel so alone, now. A little dumb, but not alone. 😂
Same, it took me awhile to figure it out.
I read “ironic” and wondered if it’s a typo
Now I feel stupid. Why did you have to point that out?!
I read it that way and was confused before even watching the video because I can't remember anything about the music.
The thing that I find utterly weird about all the worldbuilding for Avatar is they paid for it, but never really seem to have pushed it as any part of the movie promo? Focusing instead on the story (which barely existed outside of cut+paste from other films) and the SFX (which were cool, but don't engage people over time). But then, I guess creating all that worldlore & then just deviating from it whenever he felt like doing lazy storytelling would make things difficult...? 😒
When you think about how hard the LOTR team leaned into the created cultural aspects of their films, and got their audience so completely engaged.... One can only hope that with the new movies finally releasing, Cameron will allow his collaborators to get more of the limelight?? 🙄
And thank you for this, it finally explains a lot of things, inc. why that Tree of Souls song sounded so weird in the midst of the rest of the soundtrack!
I would love to hear a follow-up now that Avatar 2 is out. And it's interested to watch this after Hans Zimmer very deliberately attempted to make an alien soundtrack with "non-Earth" instruments for Dune. The music is so much of what makes that world feel so off-worldly. It's lamentable that Avatar didn't have that effect because it didn't follow through with that intention.
All that work and the title card is still just “avatar” in the papyrus font
Ikr. I thought the same thing
PAPYRUS!!!
@@johnmuselmann7886 Shakira merch! Offbrand teas!
also known as edgey hipster font
maybe the font was brand new when they used it lmfao
"Honey, what did you think of the film?"
"It was good, but there wasn't enough of Jake weaving. The book implied there'd be more"
You could have clothing or weaving more as part of their identity, like maybe give one of the na’bi special clothes once they reach a certain age or something like that, naw just have em look like African tribes lul.
"Known for weaving" -> cut to shot of a crowd in thongs and nothing else
Don’t you know the books are always better than the movies. Remember that whole chapter on baby carrying?
I read about Horner hiring an ethnomusicologist around 2007-2008, so I was really looking forward to hearing this score. The wainting was long. Sadly I must admit it was very disappointing when I finally bought the CD and heard it, and I even wondered whether the ethnomusicologist story I had read years prior was in fact true. Until today, I had always blamed Horner for being too conservative and throw away an amazing opportunity to create something really new and beautiful, but now I know it wasn´t his fault. As it often happens with Hollywood, a director-producer ruined what could have been amazing film music.
Cameron: "Make sounds that haven't been heard before."
Me: "That's impossible!"
Sound People: (Creates original sounds)
Me: WHOA, you did the impossible! That's amaz-
Cameron: This doesn't sound right! Its not like anything I've ever heard before! Change it!
Me: Oh.....
i want to hear those demos so bad actuallyyyyy
Guys guys guys. “From Oklahoma to South Dakota” makes complete sense, you just need to go around the Earth the long way. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
A better term would’ve been “From Alaska to Fiji, and you can’t go over the International Date Line.”
@@itsalily_lei_lei "From Greenland to Australia but you must change your angle of travel every 10 seconds and never reverting a previous change."
Really Cameron really...
@Cadee Haugsness It would just be Furniture Mart now.
From New York to New Jersey
So, basically, the Avatar soundtrack is like American Chinese food.
No. Avatars soundtrack is like inventing a whole new kind of food, but then throwing out all the unique ingredients so that it tastes like American Chinese food... :D
@@pills- lel
200th like
Pills _ Exactly
except american chinese food can actually taste good
I think the original concept of blending all the music is super cool. Also the fact they managed to do it is impressive, so James Cameron cutting that out makes me so maaaad
After my first two weeks taking a course on film sound in college, I find topics like these fascinating. And the idea of creating a whole new type if music for a new culture sounds just too cool to have been ruined like this. Imagine how all the talented people who worked on scoring and world building felt
Avatar: Where the worldbuilding is actually way better than the story
yeah and? lol avatar didn't do well coz of the story..
What is wrong with the story though? I mean it is no complicated characterpiece but it never tried to be. It is actual popcorn entertainment and i'd argue it has a better story than most movies today that try to fill the same niche, like the whole MCU movies for example.
Goukes the story is v good but i mean it did well more so coz of pandora etc
@@yomanwtfisthisshit But why make it? They had an opportunity, and apparently a desire, to make something unique and deep, but just made popcorn "Ah, nice to not think whilst sitting in a dark room with flashing blue lights" entertainment. What's the point? If that's the bar they were trying to hit, just make anything, it doesn't matter. Why advance 3d animations and build a lore as deep as Tolkien's when the story is just a total cliche. Sure, those stories are originally interesting but not anymore. It doesn't have any emotional impact because (unless you're a child) you already know exactly what's going to happen.
At least put a spin on it. Give them some curve ball or complexity. Don't make an effort to not make an effort. I just didn't get the point of the hype for this film because I was bored in the cinema.
@@yomanwtfisthisshit MCU at least has new story lines though. They do have surprises and unique takes that are executed well. This is just 'ethnic minority' harassed by 'American corp'. It's like a first person shooter campaign story line without the game play to break up the uninvited story bits. Many of the Avengers films actually genuinely raise the question of what is right or wrong, and don't give a clear answer. Avatar is good vs evil. Avengers has Thanos who actually gives a fairly reasonable argument for genocide and puts him as the protagonist, that's not cheap popcorn entertainment.
Can I just LOL at the statement that everyone should relate to the music "from Oklahoma to South Dakota"? Why not just make them space cowboys singing country if that is how narrow the recipients are supposed to be. Why take all these nations that have nothing to do with English, the west and the US, to make a song for the US?
Because the US is ClEaRlY all that exists!!
Na'vis be jodeling
There are two states in between Oklahoma and south Dakota! And all four of those states are in the great plains!
@@billdebillbill He didn't even go from the top (North Dakota) of US to the bottom (Texas).
I understand my country's politics a lot better now
Can we make a petition to have the original song samples released because I *NEED* to hear them
Honestly it feels like the conclusion here is pretty simple. Cameron's movies, even the good ones, are slavishly obedient to the rules of either cool or pretty. Cool and pretty, of course, as defined by Western commercial appeal. He may be an auteur in the sense of his dictatorial control, but not in the sense of creativity or artistry. He's just a stone's throw away from Michael Bay- whereas Bay is the lowbrow, explosionfest, McDonald's-level filmmaker; Cameron is a middlebrow, technonerd, Olive Garden interpretation of the exact same thing. Just look at Alien vs Aliens- while I absolutely love both, it's plain that Cameron transformed Ridley Scott's moody, philosophical, artsy vision into a mechanically precise, shut-your-brain-off techno-thriller that trades every moment of introspection for an opportunity to just ooze pre-programmed cool.
The bottom line here is- any music that is authentically ethnic or alien-sounding would not be "pretty" to Western ears, so they fall back on the Hans Zimmer/Lisa Gerrard trope of just layering some generically cool and vaguely exotic-adjacent melodies and a few meaningless female vocal warbles on top of an otherwise Euro-familiar traditional Hollywood orchestral score. This shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone though, and I wonder if the millions of dollars and hundreds of hours were really spent on all that cultural research. Anyone who's seen a James Cameron film could have predicted that it never would have worked.
You know it's kind of ironic because Titanic had that scene in the bottom of the ship demonstrating the involvement of partying and dancing to represent the lower class culture, and then there was the string quartet that played during the film aligning with the history.
And given the topics that Way of the Water touches on you'd expect Cameron to have learned something about a film score by now but here we are.
@@lightyagami1058 But, the Titanic was of western cultures which Cameron thought the audience would love & understand.
I WANNA HEAR THOSE DEMOS SO BAD!
How would we go about getting this done???
@@javierivanreyes8608 probably have sideways start a gofundme or petition to either retrieve that score, or pay to have that soundtrack done that way again, or start collecting these interesting sounds and finding a composer to give this a shot.
Same!
@@karmapolice247 These are all great ideas, it is a corporation after all though, so they'd need the incentive of people wanting it and the ability to make a profit to actually begin considering it.
@@karmapolice247 Maybe they will use them in the sequels some day...
“[...] understood by all, from Oklahoma to South Dakota”... Yes, all the countries in between!
one of the things i find odd about avatar is how the US (or the UK for that matter...) can see the film & *not* manage to be incredibly called out by it, yet somehow it almost completely managed to avoid being interpreted as an epic 'fuck you' to colonialism... which is like, the *entire* story.
how?!
Not even NORTH Dakota smh
There are literally two states between those, Kansas and Nebraska, and all four are relatively similar in culture
That is the most american quote ive ever heard
@@sjs9698 ...because you were too stupid to know how?
We miss your work man. I hope all is well.
Bro you gotta come back so you can tell us why avatar 2's soundtrack is ironic😢
are we not gonna talk about how the subtitles in the movie are written in papyrus????
Yami Dokusei that fact alone instantly took my respect for the world building down by a degree
It was on the movie posters
LMFAOOOO
@@moethauk3037 it's kinda like comic sans, everybody just hates it lol
"Papyrus...Like a small child..."
People: Do exactly as Cameron says, and exactly what he wanted
Cameron: Ew who decided this it sounds so *aLieN*
The mothershoking point.
Lmao
Christ man
Oof!
@@sinedddmk8996 Amen
Hearing all this really makes me sad. This is actually one of my favorite non animated movies, cuz I prefer animation over live action. I haven't watched it in a while but it firmly holds a place in my heart.
But most of the music didn't really stick out to me, and I so so SO wished they'd have put in what wanted to be done with the music.
After watching all of the Star Wars movies in a 2 day marathon, (in the correct order), I gotta say the Avatar soundtrack reminds me a lot of the orchestral brass that Lucas is known for in his movies. The scene in the forest with Neytiri and the rhino creatures literally sounds like it is straight out of an older Star Wars movie. Cameron and Lucas are always trying to one up each other though so maybe the brass is like a "I can do it too" to Lucas from Cameron.
I feel like I’d probably appreciate the irony better if I actually remembered a single thing that happened in this movie.
Sunniva Fossen I remember thinking that the dude got stuck in a fake game/training thing. I honestly didn’t know it was about an actual alien race thing.
Maurits this is literally all I remember wow
It’s just another white savior movie, nothing special about it at all
@@sobersplash6172 Painfully true.
@@sobersplash6172 If you guys think it's all it is, then you clearly didn't care or remember enough about the movie to have a worthwhile opinion. If you have a personal bias agaisnt something in the plot, that's completely fine, but if you're gonna class this as a "white savior movie", you should class it "the best white savior movie". calling it a "white savior movie" is diminishing in many ways in my opinion, his race was completely meaningless, he could have been a black asian for all that matters. The reason he was important in the retaliation of the alien race was because he had knowledge from the human world, which both helped him be more innovative than the aliens at their own culture, and gave him insider knowledge into the inner working of the machines and war strategy. If you're gonna complain about the plot, complain about the nonsensical corporate/military decisions the humans had in the movie.
Man, I feel offended for an ethnic group that doesn't even exist.
Welcome to 2020
A symptom of our time. Feeling offended for fictional things that is.
Prepare for all the commenters making the same joke
Give them blankets as a apology
Next step, the na'vi theme is Westerwald and Erika
All jokes aside, I think what may have happened was this:
James Cameron begins production and is in love. He spares no expense, calling in every kind of expert he can think of to create a thorough and complete setting with a fully developed culture. He gets lost in the sauce. Alien ecosystems, conlang, numerical system, astronomically accurate representations of the night sky. The coup de grace: an entirely alien soundtrack. The crown jewel of this completely new world.
Then reality smashes back in. The honeymoon phase is over. He has to make an actual movie now, and he absolutely cannot afford it to bomb. The budget that this project accrued is unthinkable. He starts cutting chunks of content, relegating them to behind the scenes material. The story can't be too weird, this has to be as universally appealing as it can be. Creature design is also reigned in - we need these aliens to have an analogue to what most audiences will recognize. Soundtrack? If it sounds weird to Cameron, it'll sound weird to the audience. They'll be taken out of the moment! No, this needs to be sanded down and made familiar.
A movie gets released. It nets unprecedented returns at the box office. Within five years, it has vanished from public discussion. What a success! What a loss...
So they made a real language, which can’t be easy. And then just said random words so that it sounds good, why tf....
Because James Cameron.
It's basically Ameno but in space.
@@Flobbled *Dorime*
@Alexander Supertramp you use it when you say "uh-oh"
I think it’s pretty rad
this movie is the most Hollywood thing I've ever heard of.
It's a really good movie though , in my opinion
@@BaguetteGamingOfficial but is not phenomenal, and it could had been, that is the problem
@@diablo.the.cheater I dunno I find it phenomenal
@@BaguetteGamingOfficial well, there is people who like fast food as well.
@@diablo.the.cheater don't judge me please
Thought about this video after watching the new Dune movie. I feel like Hanz Zimmer accomplished, for the most part, exactly what they were trying to do with Avatar, and it was phenomenal! Ironic how we got a very "alien" sounding soundtrack from a movie that didn't actually have any aliens lol.
Dune doesn't have aliens? Lol
Well not intelligent ones anyway
@@SilverstreamPJ28 From what I've heard all the sapients in Dune's universe are genetically engineered humans. They don't even have robots in the present time, since they already had a robot uprising, hence the use of mentats.
No aliens?
*looks at the sandworms*
Yeah, right.
@@mattmorehouse9685tbf, In franks original work its implied the robots did not rebel and more like people just fell into decadence.
One of the great examples of making music for a fictional culture that represents them, is the SCP foundations Sarkicism. There are literal musical scores created and based off of the languages and the type of instruments that the culture uses. As someone who is a big fan of that scp and a big fan of avatar. I feel like its fair to point that out.
"To be understood by all... from Oklahoma to South Dakota"
This reminds me of that joke from Ryan Higa: "Alright guys, I've narrowed it down... Countries all over the United States..."
Somebody once asked me if we needed a Mapa Mundi of the United States for class... Guess where he was from...
Not even that - Oklahoma to South Dakota is literally *four states* (those two, Nebraska, and Kansas).
Like at least go Alaska to Florida.
I love that it's not even North Dakota
I'm not from US, could someone explain me the joke?
@@mune3351 oklahoma and south dakota are both states in the US, but the implication of “to be understood by all” implies it would have been across multiple continents and cultures.. its hilarious because the two examples that are framed to sound so far away from each other (again, on a worldwide scale) are in the same *country,* excluding the entirety of the rest of the world and contradicting his attempt at a universal analogy.
Ed: unless he really only wanted the soundtrack to appeal to american (or otherwise generally western) audiences, in which case its even funnier that he surmounts “all” to just “people in the west.”
*THEY LITERALLY CULTURALLY APPROPRIATED A FICTIONAL CULTURE* 😂
@Isabella Krautstrunk First of all, I'm in love with your name. Secondly, I may never feel fulfilled in life until someone leaks those demos.
@Lavos hearing a white man's procrastinating on seat with mental issues would make it worse.
and how does that make you feel?
@@boiboi7717 When presented with such a rare specimen of pure unadulterated irony, I can only laugh in awe😂 I mean not even the onion could come up with satire as brilliant as this
@@Anele1097 come out in public and say that..... thought so.
You need to do this for the second one too now!
Loved this video by the way!
As an avatar fan, I am now summoning Sideways to come back and make a video about the metkayina clan.
To summarise: James Cameron shouldn’t micro manage every aspect of the film and should just respect the professionals he hired
eh not necessarily, at the end of the day it had to make money. If we were talking about an album sure it should have been left wholly to those who created it. But music in film is meant to compliment what your seeing on screen and invoke a greater emotional response to the tone and setting, It's there to play a supporting role.
For that to work it does need to recognizable enough to the audience so that they actually feel a greater connection to the scene rather then be pulled out of it by music they cannot recognize or have any emotional attachment too.
Yes it's easy to lament something that could have been. But at the end of the day, Cameron's job was to make the project as a whole a success, Which he did. Would hearing the original music be cool? heck yes. But would it have made a better movie? probably not.
Dr. Bryant's quote about being open to new sounds and learning to appreciate them over time is great. But people watching movies at the theatre don't have that option, for 99% of people it's a 1 and done thing and the music has to work there in that moment.
@@louiscypher4186 That's a great argument that wasn't stated on the video. Nice. I wonder though how less successful the movie would have been had the originally planned alien music been used
@@lowreslireas Sadly we'll never know, Part of me always thinks audiences are more open to truly new and unique things which are made with passion then the industry gives credit.
I'd offer another summary and state that Cameron's rapidly turned into Hollywood's own Peter Molyneux. Big concepts, huge ambitions, along with a tendency towards micromanaging and dwelling on the smallest details - as opposed to actually making progress during production.
Avatar works as a movie, sure, but it's far from the bombshell Cameron mentioned he'd drop during preview interviews. The box office numbers refute that, yes, but plenty of massively generic projects end up being successful. Look at Fable, which is a by-the-numbers RPG with a meter-based minmax and morality system.
Louis Cypher you make a really good point! I also think that using the micro-tonality could be a tool in making the audience uncomfortable at first in dangerous situations on Pandora.Then a well made combination of microtonal sounds, put into a theme for the na’vi, would be played just often enough to “get use to it” where the audience may have time to at least appreciate that theme while they are also learning to appreciate the na’vi and that could’ve been a good musical story telling technique. The fear of no one enjoying it because of the music should’ve driven them to find the right, enjoyable blend and not prevented them from using it in the first place.
As an Aussie I didn't realise Sam Worthington was trying to be American. I was proud to see an Australian actor using their normal accent. Now I'm embarrassed at how bad a job he did.
haha, he's from good ollll' Rockingham, nothing's getting rid of that accent lmao.
Eh i forgive him. Accents are hard.
Sam is still a great actor either way.
cosmicrdt I thought he was from Brooklyn trying to be Aussie.
"Alien" songs is such a hilarious concept. I am from Ukraine, and I know a bunch of people who listen to songs in english just to shut their brains off and relax. Because their English is so poor, the lyrics don't get in the way. They are perceived as pure music and emotion. Read the comments below any video with Made in Abyss soundtrack Hanezeve. It's a mumbo-jumbo and people acknowledge it and call this the deepest song that communicates to them IN THE SAME SENTENCE😆 Dumbledoor was correct, music is magic
ugh, you are a hidden gem in the wild west of youtube. thank you for constantly creating amazing work
I'm a biologist, and I tell you, I almost weeped in the theater. I mean, I was in bio/eco heaven. Paraphrasing Weaver, I just wanted to take some samples. I apreciated the hell out of how "extra" this movie went.
That said, I'd really, really, REALLY love to watch this movie with a completely remade soundtrack, this time ignoring Cameron and just going with what Horner and Dr. Brian come up.
I agree!!! I find the world of this movie so fascinating and cool - there's so much time and effort put into it
I'm in total agreement with you about the biological aspect of the film. I would kill to hear it with the original soundtrack, and a narrative that doesn't turn into a painful white savior story halfway through. Basically, we need a sequel that has nothing to with war, humanity, or conflict, and dives more into the lore that they developed and literally never showed us.
I'm certainly curious. I don't know if I'd like it better, but sheesh, you put it n that much effort and don't use it at ALL! That's just tragic.
@@feigekatarina5745 Yup, I agree. Also, what do the Navi do everyday?
@@RosyMiche I'm hoping that they'll try to correct their mistakes in the next film, seeing as they have proof now that it's a profitable franchise with their generic first film, and they can try to be more creative and go back to the original soundtrack and ideas for future films.
Music team: *Makes music that sounds nothing like what people have heard before, sounding so alien that it was perfect for the story"
Director:*Doesn't want it cause it sounds like something he hasn't heard before, sounding so alien that it was too weird to him*
Music team: "Isn't this what you wanted?"
Director: "Yes, but technically no"
Whilst it would have been more interesting, the cold harsh truth is that it probably would have alienated large parts of the market as well :/. At the end of the day Avatar was a commercial product, and in that regard it succeeded very well. It's just that it never became much more than that.
More like "yes but I don't liiiiiiiiikeeeee iiiiiiittt"
It's like asking your girlfriend if she wants food she says "no I'm not hungry at all" and then eats half your food and all your fries "SorRy I gOt HuNGrYyyYyYYyy"
I need to hear that demo track fr, I would killllll to hear what they came up with, such a shame. This is one of my fave soundtracks of all time but only for the parts that really felt Na'vi. I hope they kept the demos and will release them some day, even just for promotional purposes.
Interesting because for me the soundtrack have a very generic tribal sound. I love this movie but the music doesnt sound alien to me. The same track could be used in a documentary about amazonian or african tribes. It doesnt have the "weird alien sound" factor.
@@augusto7681 I totally agree, that's why I'd love to hear the demo tracks which are apparently much more unique. I feel like the reason behind my enjoyment of the soundtrack has mainly to do with the fact that I relate it to the visuals of the movie as well as my love of the concept art. I often relate audio with visual in my head, there's also just the general nostalgia and love for the movie itself. Still would love to hear the demo tracks some day.
I was utterly torn by the Way of Water's ost, it failed in a lot of places for me and was only saved by them bringing back tracks from the first movie. They could have gone a very different route with bringing in even more of the uniqueness that they have on record with the demos, but decided to focus heavily on the visual aspects instead. Still loved the sequel, just wish they'd put as much love into the music as they did the visuals and story.
I'm so glad this franchise is getting a video game. There's way too much cool lore to only be contained to just movies.
"This doesn't sound right to me."
"You hired me to make music that nobody has ever heard before, what did you expect?"
"I had no idea what to expect, I'd never heard this music before."
🤣🤣🤣
Yeah. sometimes when you experiment, the experiment doesn’t go over well and you have to try something else, for all you know the music while creative, could’ve been garbage because of how basically takes from multiple unrelated cultures whose musical traditions might conflict. People are being so ungenerous for no reason, this sort of thing happens all the time in cinema, it’s not a big deal
@@cantthinkofaname5046 Literally the only reasonable take on this whole page. It was clearly an experiment that JC was willing to try, and scrap if it wasn't good enough. Pretty standard practice for any experiment.
The thing is, people aren't blank slates, objectively judging whether a piecie of music is good or not. Whether we want to or not, we always judge what we hear in the light of what we know and what we are used to. Therefore, it is to be expected that the result of this experiment would not sound good to a western ear, it's a much, much more likely outcome than the opposite. So why waste all the time and money on the ordeal, if what he wanted was something that sounded good to westerners?
@@absta1995 We don't even know what it sounded like. How can you discredit something we don't even know how it sounds? Secondly this is a matter of taste and your comment kinda shows you probably live between Oklahoma to South Dakota.
To me the current sound track sounds so bland I would much rather have a failed experiment.
Good avatar: let's build a rich world with cool cultures by mixing asian ones. Ends up being unique even if you can recognize the inspirations.
Blue avatar: let's make a unique unrecognizable culture. Ends up being obvious native American
There's only one Avatar. This is James Cameron's furry fapfic...
@@DonVigaDeFierro well said😁👍
🤣♥️
There language sounds kinda like ancient Germanic/anglos/Celtic (kinda like old English) and modern middle eastern language
@@DonVigaDeFierro As if furries want these things.
Brilliant video-thank you for your hard work on this!
Honestly, I really enjoy Avatar's soundtrack and without this breakdown I wouldn't have known how severely it failed to do what was set out. I still think it's beautiful and it always brings me huge emotions but I hope Cameron learned his lesson and the upcoming second film will have better soundtrack. I'm sure Ill love it either way though because I've been a huge fan since the first time I saw Avatar in a cinema and it's definitely impacted my life
Thats... actually really tragic, I would've enjoyed listening to something like that.
A simple fix would've been to play the alien soundtracks in the navi scenes, and the traditional blockbuster soundtracks when the military is on scene. Further emphasizing the war between the two parties.
That actually would have been pretty cool and you would not only get visual cues on their differences but an audio one
The problem is, these stories are always about getting the audience to Sympathize With The Other and feel guilty about their own identity; this is however hard to accomplish when the Other is actually truly alien to one's sensibilities, including the aesthetic, and the Bad Guy is more familiar and relatable. If the villainous humans were identified with the familiar sounds, textures, and harmonies of movie heroism and the virtuous aliens identified with textures and tones not only unfamiliar but possibly unpleasant and even anxiety-inducing, this might have the wrong effect.
In fact, this is why the film completely failed to resonate with me, and in fact made me angry, particularly the scene where the entire planet Earth and human race are written off as dead and worthless by the wise Navi spirit thing. Like, this film was written by humans. Navi dialogue was written by humans. No Navi were involved in the making of this movie. So it's pure, irredeemable misanthropy, and I came to really dislike the imaginary aliens invented by humans to tell a fundamentally anti-human story, and an analogue to one which treats the part of the human race in which I have my own roots as, again, spiritually dead and worthless. Among my people, I am a mutant; I do not possess our endemic, genetic self-hatred.
@@Hesperell I took it as heroism and good spanning across cultures. I never saw this film as portraying humanity as a whole, but more on the individuals and their choices, whether to harm others or stand up for them.
Stalin'sDietAndFitness funny how someone in a CZcams comment section can think of this great and symbolic idea but millions of dollars cant
It seems like such a basic concept right? To give either side of a conflict their own music style to give them more of their own identity? Hell, I'd add more of an industrial sound to the space marines or whatever they're called to play up the technology vs nature aspect. It would be something to make the space marines sound more villainous.
But I'm not James Cameron, so what the fuck do I know about anything?
So James Cameron literally colonized the fictitious culture that he himself invented. Very Ironic indeed.
Except there's no reason a fictitious culture couldn't have overlapping sound elements with the West as well, so there's nothing being 'colonized'.
He had some ideas that didn't work out for his film. That so many people are making this comment shows how warped by political propaganda much artistic interpretation is.
Chris C I personally think it’s funny he paid people to make musical style no one had ever heard before witch the director shot down because “it doesn’t sound like any music I know”
@@Daniel-Strain Saying "colonialized" is maybe a bit exaggerated considering the Navi, of course, do not exist and cannot have crimes perpetuated against them. That said, it's braindead stupid to spend the time and effort to create what will feel like an authentically alien alien culture, only to undercut yourself by making an ignorant pastiche of the complex culture _you yourself made_ for the sake of being more palatable to Western audiences.
@@chrisc7265 The film itself is blatantly, explicitly political. It's not artistic interpretation, it's literally the text of the film.
i think it's wild that someone who went through so much effort to create an entire world, going through all the work of creating a new language, and mapping out the moon's cycle to make sure it's accurate, and all the other stuff that went into the world building, and got people to create music for this new culture... only to not accept the music, because it didn't sound right to them...
you're literally creating a new culture, if you're not willing to accept the strange music of this new culture, then maybe you shouldn't have created a new culture.
and the fact that the directer didn't like it, because it sounded weird to him, forgetting that other people will watch the movie, and those other people might like the weird music, is another level of wild.
even if the Blockbuster crowd won't like the strange score, there are tons of music fans who would've loved to hear something they've never heard before.
they had the chance to make an iconic score, up there with the likes of John William's scores, but they threw that all away because it just didn't sound right to them...
And Now the sequel Avatar the Way to Water: Waterworld.....but blue
Art needs freedom. But they didn't want art. They wanted money.
Eh i actually dont think the reason they did that was aaaaalll about money but idk i feel like if all they wanted money they would put so much effort any anyway who says that they cant take inspiration from the western music too idk
I highly recommend anyone who buys into the general vibe in popular culture that this movie was mediocre and the only good part was the visual cinematic theatrics to set aside the about 3 hours to watch the full cut Extended Edition (not the netflix or disney one or whatever, those are at least as cut as the theatrical release, though I think they even cut the tentacle sex scene, which I swear I remember being in the theatrical release). If you can't find it let me know I'll see if I can help or alternatively these movie censorship articles I found with a quick google search give an quick breakdown of what was additionally in the Special Edition and Extended Edition respectively (skip down to the "V. Report" and "II. Censorship Report" sections) www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=659729 and www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=869530
(it starts with a cyberpunk dystopia and a barfight, in case you were wondering, a lot is different and it really re-frames a decent amount of the film, both politically and artistically, I think)
James Cameron is one of the only directors who commands exceptional freedom in his projects because they always make a ton of money, so normally that critique works, but specifically does not work for specifically this film.
Can we get a petition going for them to release those demo’s?!?! I’m really interested in hearing them.
That'd be immense. I loooove foreign music.
#ReleaseTheBryantHornerCut
-Jr- honestly. The though of never getting to hear them is a little heartbreaking
@@baronvonbeandip that's a pretty broad description lol
@@samyrandome425 i loooove hearing things i havent heard before
This film is an upside down satire of itself.
No
Sometimes I just think about the fact that they went above and beyond trying to make sure everything was biologically correct and then put magic noodles in their hair.
"... understood by all, from Oklahoma to South Dakota"
I dont think ive ever heard a sentence thats more unintentionally funny than that.
northern_lights yes, he is all Americans.
Mr Worldwide, James Cameron
he did not pick the northernmost OR southernmost state.. and also they are not extremely different places, most things can probably be understood oklahoma to south dakota. What was he trying to say with that?
He tried to say "from top to bottom," I think. But he forgot that America is way wider than it is tall, so he basically said, "make a narrow section of our audience appreciate it, and the rest are probably similar enough anyway I guess so I won't even mention them." And he got what he paid for.
"I want music understood by all from Oklahoma to... three states away from Oklahoma."
🤣🤣🤣
Hahaha, yhea, that sentence was indeed offensive. Even for an european that still is as western as it gets. ^^
I allways thought james cameron did that movie for me aswell 😢 but nope ^^
It's hilarious to me he picked, of all regions on earth, two midwest US states. Not England to China, Russia to Madagascar, etc.
I love how he chose very central states too. Such diversity. Very cool.
@@rovidicus9574 Hell not even the coasts of the US or the North West to the South East. Two very similar Midwest states.
It's almost an insult with the implications.
I just love how there was all this effort put into the lore and world and how it looks and sounds and just none of it is in the movie itself
They really expanded the world in the new movie and will cover it eventually with the upcoming movies.
Necessary rewatch rn
I’m annoyed that they literally just used Papyrus font for the whole movie.
I took a typography course for my major and the papyrus font was an ongoing joke in that course. The fact that it was used in this film was peak comedy to us.
Budget
are you familiar with the Ryan Gosling video about this? too funny
It wasn't even literally Papyrus!
Maybe that was the starting point, but they clearly modified it.
THANK YOU. This is my biggest problem with the film funnily enough
This brings to mind an old Southern expression: "Don't buy a watchdog, then do yer own barkIn'"!
I have never heard that expression before but I love it.
As a Texan I have never heard that, but I’m sure as hell gonna use it
Are you making a video for the new avatar 2 music? I wanna know if the learned anything from the first one.
I also want a video on it.
Honestly personally I felt like it took a pretty bad turn, there were not many scenes with na'avi music in them (like in the original with the ritual scenes). And the background music for actions and such was super brass heavy. Nothing really stood out apart from the specific bead songs and even those were meh at best, just felt like what was mentioned in the video, where they chose words in the interest in making it sound nice to us, didn't feel really all that unique. I am probably missing a lot as I'm not familiar with musical theory, but that is my impression as a casual viewer.
All these ppl saying “scrapping the non-western-sounding music may be an unpopular decision, but it was the right one” clearly have not listened to the Battlestar Galactica soundtrack…
“This is not what non-Western music sounds like. This is what Western audiences THINK non-Western music sounds like” GO OFF
Its what western people think alien music sounds like so what, no one is right here, cuz wait a min...ALIENS HAVEN’T visit us yet
@@2ndpartycrasher954 There are cultures outside of the western world that are made by humans too.
I was looking at the comments an the said it right when I was on your commment
@@SkyPixelin that wasn't his argument.
As a southamerican i thought they based the culture on the Tupi-guarani tribes (but mostly Tupi since they used to be located more on the amazonas zone)so yeah they still fucked up their attempt at making it completly disconected,
"understood by all from Oklahoma to South Dakota"
Oh my god that's the funniest thing I've heard all month
Mamenber from america to america wow what an astronomical distance
I'm assuming their pretty close together in the US
@@RailwayPenguin And as i searched it, there is a city between these two states, which is mentioned in the movie (I did not see the video yet).
@@RailwayPenguin I mean, not incredibly close together. Oklahoma is a state that's central in the country and near (not at) the southern boarder where South Dakota a state that's central in the country that's near (not at) the northern boarder, so it's a really really weird analogy to draw.
@@sjhsoccer Actually, I am from South Dakota, and have visited Oklahoma, the culture's are actually quite similar. I have no relatives from or around Oklahoma, yet I find I have more in common with people I've met from there that I do with many people in North dakota or Montana.
You may have heard of that dialect test where it guesses where you are from based on the words you use, and it actually guessed western oklahoma for me. (Yes it's just an anecdote, but I think it is still somewhat informative)
God damn it, Sideways! Now that I know Na'vi is an actual language, I wanna learn it now.
Realistically:
I think it was all cut back for profit. At some point I think Cameron wanted to make something genuinely alien but along the way realized "oh shit, I spent a lot of money on this" and went the safe route by sanding off the less familiar edges of the project. If the watered down version was planned all along, then why ask for truly alien music instead of asking what you wanted to begin with
I never thought that hearing something about a movie I don't really care about could make me so angry
Avatar bad grrrr
@@Gameshunter3012 I didn't say it's bad. I enjoyed watching it, but the story is generic, stereotypical non-sense. It's like a Marvel movie. You can have fun watching it, but you'll forget it afterwards and it doesn't matter if you do. I literally didn't care about it until now
@@simonskopf exactly and music also ended up being stereotypical western blockbuster shit
welcome to the current climate of youtube
When this came out, I thought it was just a big blockbuster that capitalized on cutting edge special effects and pretty much nothing else. After learning about everything else that they were trying to do with the movie, I'm beyond disappointed with how much potential they wasted.
They could have pushed the boundaries of literally EVERYTHING. This literally could have been the new LOTR with added groundbreaking non-western cross cultural music being introduced to the Western world.
But nope. We just got fancy blue Pocahontas instead.
I guess there's a reason why people consider this movie "the most successful movie that nobody remembers." I only even remember the name Nav'i because it reminds me of Legend of Zelda...
I only remember it because its name is the same as Avatar the Last air bender and because there is one scene that reminds me of dinotopia
A movie with a huge bible of worldbuilding but a weak story is randomly put together to make money and give something easy for audiences without regards for meaning or consistency... hasn't something like that happened recently... (eyes glaze over new star wars)... Nah, Avatar's scripts was far less messy.
@@maximeteppe7627 only new star wars...? All of Star Wars suffers from this, I love the movies, all of them (well... Most) but they're all just tropes over tropes over tropes and the empty space filled by space battles.
The comics and the series (Clone Wars specifically) did a MUCH better job of worldbuilding
@@majestichorseman1321 when the original movies were made, where was no expansive bible to draw from.
The prequels are weird but they do complexify things thematically and lore wise. They failure of execution lies more in the dialogue and directing than in the overall story.
The sequels though, they are a mess rushed to theater to make back the 5 billions investment as quick as possible, with one ambitious but chaotic entry in the middle.
@@maximeteppe7627 yeah, on-paper the prequel trilogy is just as good as (if not better than) the originals if you're judging them based on overall plot, theming, lore... they have a profound message that they do actually try to say, they just fumble the delivery. Well, more like... dropped it off a cliff, but you get the idea.
Now that the second movie is out please do a follow-up video! This is one of my favorite videos of yours all because of the other irony in the grand scale of the failure lol
One of my favourite rock artists is a guy who has no musical training, no idea about music theory at all, and so while the instrumentation feels very familiar, it's kind of hard to get inside the music to start off with. But ultimately, it's incredible stuff and I would recommend everyone to invest some time into understanding it. The artist name is Surface To Air Missive.
Why the hell did they not create some generic Hollywood score for the humans (brass and whatnot), and actually use the unusual alien-like score for the Navi? Wtf?? Too much of a statement for a blockbuster?
As much as I love this idea, I think Cameron might have worried that if he had used generic Hollywood action movie music for the humans, and unfamiliar aliens scores for the Navi, the Western audience would have been more incline to side with the 'evil corporation' humans instead, since their soundtrack along with other things made them much more familiar and recognisable.... While the Navi's soundtrack might have made them too 'alien' for the audiences's comfort, hence making them less relatable. Which was not the emotional reaction he wanted for the viewers.
@@chankljp Making a movie where the audience isnt forced to pick sides may have made a better movie in my opinion.
@@MrJonojono34 I totally agree but the sad reality is that the majority wont feel the same....
Remember when one of the most popular sci fi films, 2001: a space odyssey, had a completely "alien" soundtrack of swarming violins and vocals? How unadventurous it's all become.
Well, come on, the generically unspecific 'ethnic' culture has to be easily digestible and consumable for western markets. They couldn't have anything to innovative, unfamiliar or challenging.