Practical Differences in Sparring: SABRE vs LONGSWORD [HEMA]
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- Today I'm responding to a question asking about the differences between some key differences between longsword and sabre sparring with a practical approach in mind.
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Thalhoffer's illustration taken from: wiktenauer.com/wiki/Talhoffer...
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Timestamps:
0:00 - Thanks & Happy New Year!
0:59 - Introduction
2:24 - 1. Guards & hand position
4:08 - 2. Distance
6:17 - 3. Footwork
8:36 - 4. Tempo
11:10 - 5. Grappling
12:03 - Outro
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- Instagram: / historyandsabre
- My HEMA club: indes.at
Very great video. I think right now the German KDF style is the only longsword style put so much emphasis on counter attack by using the master cuts to steal the initiative and protect yourself at the same time. On contrary, Italian longsword (at least Medieval style that I'm learning) are more familiar with the sabre fighting method by using parry riposte system, which the German masters called "common fencing" actions and advised against using them
Quality material, I really like the stuff you're doing on your channel! Agree with most points of the video, though I have some remarks.
The first, most notable difference between sabre and longsword bouting would be the weapons' inertia and how you're able to handle it in either of the systems. The two-handed leverage in the longsword offers a lot more possibilities over the sabre: instant transitions and trajectory changes between different blade actions, rapid renewals of the attacks, binding & winding with force. In sabre you're left with slowish moulinet type of transitions and staying mentally one step ahead of your opponent in the game of "my turn - your turn" :-). Closing the line and getting into the bind is also much harder in sabre, though not entirely impossible.
The measure is wider in longsword but IMO only in the zufechten stage. From what I observed, once an actual exchange starts, longsword fencers tend to close the measure more eagerly and a big portion of exchanges ends in wrestling. Sabreurs seem to be way more cautious and conservative with the measure. I personally prefer to stay away from flashy exchanges at all, relying instead on hit and run tactics from the wide measure.
Thanks for the great feedback, it is cool to see more and more people enjoying my channel!
I agree with your take on things, no objections. The winding and trajectory changes are definitely an important factor when it comes to longsword fencing and I feel like it was kind of included in the idea of multidirectionality. I could have specified a bit more, though. I also agree with the tendency to stay more cautious in sabre fencing which the military fencing styles seem to cause in people as opposed to the more "hands on" approach of medieval fighting styles.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
As soon as you said I'm one of 600 subscribers, I was like "wait that's not right, is this video from 2018 or something?" I guess I am! I assumed there were more hahaha
Haha, that's also happened to me before elsewhere! Regarding my channel, though, I only launched it in March or April last year so I'm quite happy with how it's been going! :)
I just love the uncompromising approach of longsword systems but sabre is cool too.
this is a really great vid. the effort you put with the graphics and camera really make the vid far more enjoyable
Thanks a lot, really appreciate it!
Great video, thank you! I haven't prcaticed with long sword yet, but we have some great swordsman in our club. I think it is helpful for a fighter to practise in different styles. For me it looks like that it is easier to understand the concept of guarding the lines with the long sword than with a sabre where it is not so obvious, but it could be only personal thing. Also, from a side it looks like our sabre or mixed fighters have a "faster" legs. We also practicing with dussaks sometimes and I have to say that it is very cool weapon with high speed, tons of adrenaline, medieval fighting styles features, grappling, disarming and so on
Yeah, it's very useful to get some experience with passing footwork and two-handed weapons!
As for which is easier to understand, I do think that depends on which you are more familiar with. I've done a couple of years if longsword, so I'm quite comfortable with both guard systems.
I would like to mention that the sabre fencing you talk about mostly refers to Italian influenced western fencing. Older styles of sabre, much like medieval fencing, generally keep the hands out of harms way in their type of guards as older sabres have simpler hilts. Also not relying much on parry riposte for defence as most of the time older sabres tend to be heavier and more specialized for cavalry use.
Sure, absolutely. Good point but I am indeed talking about military sabre fencing on foot of the 18th and 19th century, which I said in the beginning. :)
Where are your millions of views though? Such a quality video! BTW, props on rocking that moustache, anyone with a moustache gets +10 to saber techniques ;)
Also, I think saber fencing needs a bit more visibility in media in contrast to longsword/arming sword+shield and all the fancy armored competitions and exhibitions. It has whole different feel and its own subtleties.
Hi and thanks for the kind words!
Sure, longsword is the undisputed HEMA popularity champion. However, sabre fencing has been increasing hugely in popularity since I started doing it 5 years ago and it's quite popular now! :)
I like your video and nice sparing!
I want to see mixed sparring of longsword vs saber！
Thanks! Sparring videos are really on the top of my list for this year but I'm afraid it won't really be possible to do some until at least March/Arpil due to pandemic restrictions. Cheers!
perfect overview for writing research! thanks! :)
Great to hear the video was useful to you. Cheers!
Thank you for making this video after my request.
Sure, you're welcome. I hope I answered some of your questions.
@@historyandsabre you did
600 subscribers is not much... But we're all armed people who'd join you in a battle!
Cheers, much appreciated!
I've only been at this since last spring, so I'm quite happy with how it's going!
Happy New Year to you. May we all be able to get back to significant practice with opposition this year!
And to you! Yep that'd be great, although I feel it will be quite the awakening once I realise that all my training and fitness progress has disappeared haha.
@@historyandsabre really, I feel the opposite. I've gotten in significantly better shape during this year.
Though I had covid-19 last month. Fatigue and body aches as the worst symptoms - sucked, but got over it. Still not quite back to 100% though. I took an easy run yesterday and the worst spot on my back still protested some. And I've been doing daily pell and forms work to try to keep the training side as good as it can be. I wish I had a sharp for cutting practice, but alas, not yet.
But regardless of current fitness, you will get it back and have a ton of fun doing it once you can seriously train with others again.
@@jasonjames9836 Yeah, some people have really been taking advantage of this past year doing more exercise but for me it was the opposite unfortunately. You're right, though, it will be cool tonget back into shape, whenever that'll be possible!
That sucks, I wish you all the best and a swift and full recovery!
Happy new year!
Thanks, back at you!
Great channel, do recommend.
Thanks a lot, see you around on the FB groups! :)
@@historyandsabre well add me dude!
About the reason there’s less grappling in the 18th and 19th systems . I believe it’s harder to close in a safe way with the footwork used with these systems . My club always attempts for grappling controls whether is part or not of the system. We found less successful attempts when sparring with military sabre than with longsword.
Yeah, that's definitely one reason. It's also why Roworth, for instance, describes an old school passing step in his disarming techniques.
What sabre is that you're holding? Looks awesome and I'm looking at getting an early sabre. how does that finger ring go with gloves?
Thanks, that's my sharp hussar sabre I use for test cutting. More about it here: czcams.com/video/Cleln4FLIyI/video.html
To me if I had a choice if I had to fight. it would depend on if we are armored or unarmored(EX kevlar vs cloth). The Sabre seems the best for unarmored, meanwhile the Longsword seems best for armored fighting.
Ok so i just found out about your channel, i was always interested in historical fencing and throughout the years i reaally started to like sabres, unfortunately i was never allowed to take lessons in fencing/swordsmanship due to my parents and the fact that i am an organist and they feared that i would damage my fingers.
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I would like to ask, before that i would like to say, that yes i am influenced by video games and othermedias but at the same times duel wielding is a historical thing, for example japanese Nittoryu, or in Europe there is rapier + dagger or swordbreaker.
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I was wondering and i even saw a few videos. Here is a question, Is it possible to pair sabre with something else possibly another another sabre for dual sabres ? In a certain video with dual sabres someone mentioned that 2 exactly same sabres got in a way. It is my wish for Dual sabres but i guess every fencer/swordsman/HEMA practitioner would just laugh at me for somethign like this.
I would love to know your opinion on this.
Hi Martin and thanks for the comment!
First of all, you're asking and honest and open-minded question and anybody who'd laugh at you for asking is doing HEMA a disfavour. A great many people discover our activity through exposure to movie fighting or video games and that's great!
Okay, about dual wiedling - if you include asymmetrical stuff like rapier & dagger or sword & buckler, these are real historical systems making use of mismatched object in either hand. Same with sabre & shield in colonial contexts, smallsword and cloak, or cutlass & pistol in later periods, for instance. All very historical.
If we're talking about similar swords or sabres in each hand we can safely say that it has also been done and is recorded in some manuals of the 16th century, for example. BUT it's not always practical and *very* context based. That said, it's definitely something to explore and experiment with, although wielding two identical swords at the same time was never the norm in European fencing systems. In my view, if you want to learn how historical weapons were used, you're best served if you stick to learning the weapon on its own first. As I see it, you can dive into dual wielding at any time but you're gonna have an easier time if you've spent some time with single weapons.
All in all, do what you like and if messing about with two swords is your interest go right ahead! You might also wanna look into LARP fighting where the swords are often made of foam and you might find a greater number of like-minded people for your specific interest!
Cheers,
Peter
This is a very great video.
Btw where can I get a saber like the one in the video? And what is it called?
Thanks a lot!
The sabre is a sharp replica based on 17th c. Polish hussar sabres. You can find a video about this one on my channel! Cheers
@@historyandsabre ok thank you it really caught my eyes😁
Very interesting and informative video, and great quality as always. However, in my opinion control is missing. With sabre it is for instance much harder to actually stop a strike halfway or to slow a strike down, which may result in less control or at least a bigger learning curve for control with sabre. With longsword of course it is still difficult to slow down strikes but less so, since you can use your shoulders more easily to stop the strike and since of course, there is another arm that can stop te strike. So safety may be a bit harder to achieve with sabre.
Thank you! Yeah I see your point but I'd much rather get hit in the mask after a failed parry with a sabre than a longsword. From my experience, the longsword does hit a lot harder in general.
From the title, I hoped to see some discussion on a mixed sparring: sabre against a longsword. :-) Did you try it just for fun? Besides hand sniping, what will be a non-suicidal tactics for the person with the subre? ;-)
Hi, thanks for the comment! There's a video of me going up againdt longsword with a highland broadsword. I've tried it often over the past couple of years and in my view, the main aspect you need adjust to is the offline passing footwork.
@@historyandsabre Thank you! I will watch the video you mentioned.
Little late but hanging parries help when parrying heavier or 2 handed weapons at least in my experience. My weakest moments would be a radaelli style saber grip while parrying the most aggressive cuts of a 2 hander. I had to move to a hammer grip to parry those.
when you say that the system does not support off tempo actions, do you mean its less common in the use of saber in general, or just the systems you are familiar with? I guess im wondering if this is more a product of the weapon or a product of the particular weapon system.
do you think this may be because there is less of a “bind” in one handed cut and thrust swordsmanship in general?
but on the other hand i know that foil (and i think smallsword) defends and attacks in the same act as well and can sometimes have something kind of similar to the bind.
Oh, I'm talking specifically about 19th century lunge-based systems when I say sabre in this video. If we accept Meyer's dussack as a sort of proto sabre or Hungarian and Polish fencing of the 17th century, much of what I said about the longsword would applay to those systems aswell. This video is meant to give a general and simplified overview between the systems as most commonly practised in HEMA today.
Great video! What saber model are you holding in this video.
Thanks!
It's a sharp Polish sabre by Szabla Polska. I have a review on my channel. Cheers!
@@historyandsabre I just found it, but thank you for the fast reply at late hour. The review ist also very good as well.
If you want some serious fun, do Saber and Buckler.
Oh, we do in the context of experimenting with mixed weapons!
@@historyandsabre For mixed weapons, I use my T'ang era dao (frontier dao from LK Chen) with Roworth 4th edition :) That combo works well with the western buckler too.
The early Han ~ T'ang era Jian do well with long sword and much of what you discuss here applies well there.
When are you going to talk about pasta?
I'm gonna leave that to the Italians on here. Maybe ask Federico Malagutti?
@@historyandsabre
Oh my bad. When are you going to talk about tacos?
when you guard dont separate your arms of your body if that makes sens, moving the guard like this is like... not athletic. just move it casualy ^^
I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not trying to be athletic while filming a video in my study where there's chairs, desks and swords all around me.
@@historyandsabre its just the way you handle your heavy sword. you trying to be too quick with it tikle my eye sorry :p slow is fast and fast is powerfull :D
im just picturing an angry shaq o neil with a long sword sorry xD
not mean to brat tho :p
thing is when you take the bet of being slower but well cordinated you then can get quicker on your feet and have a better eye and it will compensate if taht makes sens . making one with the sword like a tennis man makes one with his racket seem to be pretty important.