Plato's Terrifying Secret Doctrines | Jason Reza Jorjani
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- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
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Jason Reza Jorjani:
@prometheism3174
Lovers of Sophia:
www.amazon.com...
Plato's so-called unwritten doctrines are metaphysical theories ascribed to him by his students and other ancient philosophers but not clearly formulated in his writings. In recent research, they are sometimes known as Plato's 'principle theory' (German: Prinzipienlehre) because they involve two fundamental principles from which the rest of the system derives. Plato is thought to have orally expounded these doctrines to Aristotle and the other students in the Academy and they were afterwards transmitted to later generations.
The credibility of the sources that ascribe these doctrines to Plato is controversial. They indicate that Plato believed certain parts of his teachings were not suitable for open publication. Since these doctrines could not be explained in writing in a way that would be accessible to general readers, their dissemination would lead to misunderstandings. Plato therefore supposedly limited himself to teaching the unwritten doctrines to his more advanced students in the Academy. The surviving evidence for the content of the unwritten doctrines is thought to derive from this oral teaching.
In the middle of the twentieth century, historians of philosophy initiated a wide-ranging project aiming at systematically reconstructing the foundations of the unwritten doctrines. The group of researchers who led this investigation, which became well-known among classicists and historians, came to be called the 'Tübingen School' (in German: Tübinger Platonschule), because some of its leading members were based at the University of Tübingen in southern Germany. On the other hand, numerous scholars had serious reservations about the project or even condemned it altogether. Many critics thought the evidence and sources used in the Tübingen reconstruction were insufficient. Others even contested the existence of the unwritten doctrines or at least doubted their systematic character and considered them mere tentative proposals. The intense and sometimes polemical disputes between the advocates and critics of the Tübingen School were conducted on both sides with great energy. Advocates suggested it amounted to a 'paradigm shift' in Plato studies.
The expression 'unwritten doctrines' refers to doctrines of Plato taught inside his school and was first used by his student Aristotle. In his treatise on physics, he wrote that Plato had used a concept in one dialogue differently than 'in the so-called unwritten doctrines.' Modern scholars who defend the authenticity of the unwritten doctrines ascribed to Plato lay stress on this ancient expression. They hold that Aristotle used the phrase 'so-called' not in any ironic sense, but neutrally.
The scholarly literature sometimes also uses the term 'esoteric doctrines.' This has nothing to do with the meanings of 'esoteric' common today: it does not indicate a secret doctrine. For scholars, 'esoteric' indicates only that the unwritten doctrines were intended for a circle of philosophy students inside Plato's school (in Greek, 'esoteric' literally means 'inside the walls'). Presumably they had the necessary preparation and had already studied Plato's published doctrines, especially his Theory of Forms, which is called his 'exoteric doctrine'.
Modern advocates of the possibility of reconstructing the unwritten doctrines are often called in a short and casual way 'esotericists' and their skeptical opponents are thus 'anti-esotericists.'
The Tübingen School is sometimes called the Tübingen School of Plato studies to distinguish it from an earlier 'Tübingen School' of theologians based at the same university. Some also refer to the 'Tübingen paradigm.' Since Plato's unwritten doctrines were also vigorously defended by the Italian scholar Giovanni Reale, who taught in Milan, some also refer to the 'Tübingen and Milanese School' of Plato interpretation. Reale introduced the term 'protology,' i.e., 'doctrine of the One,' for the unwritten doctrines, since the highest of the principles ascribed to Plato is known as the 'One.'
The case for the unwritten doctrines involves two steps. The first step consists in the presentation of the direct and circumstantial evidence for the existence of special philosophical doctrines taught orally by Plato. This, it is claimed, shows that Plato's dialogues, which have all survived,[citation needed] do not contain all of his teaching, but only those doctrines suitable for dissemination by written texts. In the second step, the range of sources for the supposed content of the unwritten doctrines is evaluated and the attempt made to reconstruct a coherent philosophical system.
#gnosticinformant #platonism #esoterica
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Mind unveiled.
Idk if you should really be hosting Nazi adjacent people like Jason Reza Jorjani tbh
Token of gratitude for helping Jason throw together one of the best sequential playlists on CZcams, sir.
I’ve given you flack for things here and there, but I do the same with my close friends, and would expect them to do to me.
You’re really building quite a remarkable library of your own here man, cheers !
Plato was quite the thinker it would appear. This is the most I've ever known about him and his thoughts.
Great discussion thank you both.
His embrace of contradiction is deep I can tell.
He is correct in his thoughts on forms and the connection to geometry, and he speaks volumes in his admission of refuge in thought from a soul blinding (unsetting) sun.
Thought experiment and theory require a certain poetry when committing to page.
And he is also correct about committing works to page. I found this to be his most beautiful and profound observation.
I care not for his noble lie efforts, but they have gotten us here. Wherever here is.
Time in motion is unknowable from the inside.
So when looking for a culprit you need look no further than a mirror.
A grand idea at the time perhaps, must now be unpacked.
As we turn to face the light.
Very important stuff discussed here...no need for glasses soon
This is PROFOUND, PIVOTAL and ESSENTIAL information on so many levels ... But most of all with the incisive perspicuity to unmask the agenda of control through promoting belief in all and any "gods" or alternatives to gods to explain our existence. Thank you, Jason, for being a champion of free thought, integrity and independent critical thinking.
Yeah, but there is an obvious creator. Believing human beings could ever grasp such an entity and conveniently mold him into the form of man and claim that only your special boy doctrine is the right one, and everybody else is going to hell. Now that is obviously absurd... no more than evolution though, to be fair.
@@jusme8060 there is nothing obvious about it. The idea that humans cannot grasp it kind of makes you question just how you know such things: What makes it obvious? If you cannot define such a thing, then it is equally unbelievable. creator = x only says something creates, but not what that something is, or how, or from what. it isn't really saying anything at all.
@@RJ-ho8pn what i was saying implies a deeper discussion. I'm an Ignostic. without defining god, it's a meaningless word. the characteristics assigned to the modern monotheistic god conflict with one another. That's kind of what Epicurus' Problem of Evil points toward.
It's also anticipating certain other arguments, such as creatio ex nihilo and teleological views of "creation" (the very use of the word creation creates a bias, as created BY SOMETHING is implied. hence, "what makes it obvious?" that things are what they are? how do you prove they were INTENDED to be what they are? what is intention? foreknowldge (promethean) + desire (aphrodite)? how do you show something WANTED things to be what they are?
Hence "profound to you" actually has a meaning to someone who spent over a decade debating this stuff.
i don't see "the jews" as some secret authority. "the jews" are as wide-spread in their political outlooks as anyone else. they have liberal wings and conservative wings. they have socialists, they have capitalists. like there is no real christianity, only interpretations, so it is virtually everywhere (a sort of Nietzschean view of relativism).
@@jeromyrutter729existence makes it obvious.
A computer, a building, a life form doesn't just pop up, nowhere in existence is that demonstrated. All life came from life, all functional buildings were intelligently designed, all computers were intelligently designed.
The creator is written into and reflected in everything from macro to micro level.
It takes arrogance or a vendetta to think there wasn't a creator. Most fueled by reaction to religion.
Damn this episode is really deep I want more episodes like this.
Agreed
Thank you for allowing Mr. Jorjani to take the floor and speak. There isn't much that is more painful to watch, then a host competing with their guest, especially, a guest as well spoken and articulate as Jason Reza Jorjani. Excellent episode, because the channel host allowed the guest, to elaborate, in detail, into the field which they specialize in. Well done, I'm subscribed.
that's why i don't listen to that one bbc show npr plays before morning edition anymore
So you subscribed to something that was painful to watch
@@mtv3234 Unsubscribed
It sounds to me like Plato was a lifelong student for ultimate Truth. So by gathering information from the greatest thinkers of his time, I respect the method.
I get a stronger sense that Plato loves thought more than truth. He's just invented philosophy and with it the dilemma of how to make the obvious interesting.
@@theunseenstevemcqueen I might fall under that same category. Although, not nearly as brilliant...
JESUS IS TRUTH
@@True-ob4lq That's very true. But I regret to inform you that there are more than one truth.
I have to admit, these Jorjani videos are extremely entertaining. The guy is out there !
Discovered Jorjani about 5 years ago, he has evolved and has the best view of the history of religion and philosophy, period.
@@civil-socialmedia4604 😮
Yeah he loves Mussolini, very out there.
“ No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth “
“ False words are not only evil in themselves, but rather infect the soul with evil “
“ Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because to say something “
- Plato
I A O - L V X
As a Sufi Muslim I've come away with interesting tidbits of knowledge and gnosis. I don't necessarily agree with everything that Jorjani has said but he does give me something really interesting to think about.
❤ Awesome. I was wondering how this pre-Islamic Iranian Ancestral wisdom could potentially Free many from mental slavery of the more dogmatic branches of the 🌴Tree of Life
❤ 🙏🗽🌍🌏🌎🌞🌝✨
That's because you're a Sufi
two essential truths stand out jason. 1. the philosophers were also mystics. 2. the gods have all got two faces..the beautiful and the foul. so the universe of perfect form is the noble lie. excellent analysis.
But who is to say it is awful. Just because it looks bad dose not mean it isn't Good For you. Like Medicine.
@@calonarang7378 and yet, there are things that are foul, in a purely "bad" way. Not medicinal or strengthening or of betterment in any way. What do we do with that kind of God -face?
@@PhoenixAurelius-138
Explain? If how a lion eats a gazelle that is nature and been a thing long than us humans have walked.
Since the dinosaurs.
His comment on the mind that you use to understand a world in flux being also in flux therefore knowledge is not possible is nicely succinct. I'd have put it that knowledge of flux relies on a stable memory which is itself excluded by the assumption of flux, but I like the way he put it. Buddhists often don't get this even when they're dropping lines about impermanence.
The real question is what is Jorjani's noble lie? And what does he actually believe. He said 2 very important things during this conversation. That Plato's ENTIRE philosophy could be a noble lie. And that Jason's own philosophical project should be seen as being in the style of Plato. WHAT IS BEHIND JORJANI'S NOBLE LIE?
Exactly. Who’s the noble liar, truly? Is it Plato, or Jorjani?
@@badmen1550 😂😂👌🏽
Communism.
@@fremiloant1186based
Lol no
Another great educational dialogue with Dr Jorjani.. Love his historical genealogy .
This idea makes so much sense if you are familiar with esoteric subjects and later alchemical traditions. Pythagoras’ philosophical ideas are everywhere to this day and is parallel with Kabbalistic ideas as well
It’s close
pythagoras means "the great serpent" lol make of that what you will
@@Skolotoi serpents have been in every culture’s consciousness where they are found. Part of that comes down to how dangerous they’ve been historically as well as a placeholder for concepts and metaphors. Such as ouroboros, Greek mystery cults or Celtic or Babylonian myths and priesthoods. Even in early sects Christianity the serpent wasn’t always seen as evil.
@@Trismegistus95 A serpent is also a metaphor for an electromagnetic and/or psychoenergetic stream of disembodied consciousness. You and I could easily be such serpents incarnated into human bodies, which are themselves, in turn, are like super-developed mammalian meat-serpents with really cool optimal-fashion appendages. Serpent is like a primordial blueprint of some sort. Serpentine symbolism is everywhere even without the occult mystery religions, which do consciously plant it. Take a look at some of the cars-the metal bodies-that we "drive" aka incarnate in a by proxy way-many of them look themselves like serpent heads.
Ouroboros indeed, Sir(pent). Ouroboros indeed.
How powerful is the Self to unfold the reality in such a multi-layered, multi-dimensional fashion. No wonder that existence is rife with conflict.
P.S. In this context, the demonization of the serpent becomes a tool of trauma-based mind control the primary function of which is to breach the Ego-Self Axis of the individual in such a way as to allow for installation of slave programming modules...
Kundalini AKA The Good Serpent (Sophia)
I really like listening to Jorjani’s views on any subject. Great channel and content, I’ve heard so many great conversations over here. Thanks!
Allahu Akhbar !
@@SubhanAllahInshalla nice trolling
@@iceblinkmender can you spell out what his ideas on those are? I have forgotten
@@tsemayekekema2918 ah I deleted my initial comment because I felt bad throwing any stones, but his ideas about democracy in america are real bad. he's said in some other interviews that he thinks america should have never been a democracy, a la Jefferson, iirc. but he's definitely super right wing at the very least.
@@tsemayekekema2918 and it's disappointing to see Neal, who's been nurturing such a positive, rigorous academic community bring people like this back on. but I guess this isn't a political channel and Jorjani can be interesting without knowing his shitty politics.
Dr Jorjani the ego slayer. Never a dull, one listen. Multiple replays whilst walking through fire required.
Well, Aristotle did start his own school because "I love Plato, but I love the truth more"
sorry for blowing up your comments, but this was so good and thought provoking, luv u guys. Thank you Dr Jorjani for your hard work, and thank you Niel for your hard work too and bringing it all together.
"Homer was the internet" sparked a moment of gnosis for me for sure.
I would argue though, that it was more specifically that "Homer was 'meme culture' " that phenomenon that exists among all social platforms we have on the internet now, but had very much existed well before the digital era as well.
That’s quite profound.
he basically says that 54:44
Man I want to hear more Reza all the time can’t get enough of that Luciferian
Boss
Peak Jorjani! More tangents! Thanks GI for wonderful hosting as always, keep gnosis strong!
Factoid
Zarathustra is my fave subject this guy kicks ass his knowledge and style is really good
You’re an excellent host: patient and well articulated yourself. Thank you 😊
Some of the stuff Plato and Aristotle talk about sounds a lot like particle physics theory. When they talk about not knowing the truth of a changing object and only knowing it's truth once it stops changing, no longer in flux. That sounds like quantum states and how they hold no state until observed. And once observed they remain in the one state. Quantum physics stuff. When they say that you can't know something's truth. It isn't hard to see that is analogous to you can't observe it's state.
Sounds like particle/wave duality.
When revealed the one becomes myriad.
This is the secret.
I've always suspected Plato of political sophistry since I read the Menexenus. A military funeral oration. If you want to be in the elite, political class, you have to be able to deliver a military funeral oration. You don't have to believe it, you just have to be able to do it. And Plato is teaching how to do it. Or what you have to be able to do if you want to be in a position of political power to control the masses.
Indeed, "I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him." Rhetoric/persuasive, public oration was a skill and an art and something that was expected of every "educated" person. As you say, they didn't need to personally "believe" what they were saying, but they needed to be able to "argue the case", just like a good lawyer tries to serve their client, even if they "believe" they're guilty. The "objective, scientific Truth", is a pretty recent phenomenon and point of pride.
Might want to check into "metis." The Greeks didn't see morality and truth from a modern Christian zeitgeist.
@@Natty183Neither do I.
This needs more attention. He is absolutely right.
This is exactly why the republic was taught in the Islamic caliphate and the Roman empire and the barbarian empire.
You have to understand that used to only monks and scribes and the ruling elite were allowed to see those manuscripts.
And now everybody is so distracted they're not interested in Reading any of those old manuscripts but all of the manuscripts that were held in seminaries were only for the educated Elite.
So when they taught Plato's Republic in christian seminaries it was specifically for social engineering. This guy is exactly right.
And let's not forget that Europeans and British people have absolutely no connection to their ancestry or the history of their societies because Henry the 8th burned all of the monasteries that held any attachment to the spiritual and social histories of those regions.
This is why people want Jesus and king Arthur to be real historical figures ; because without them; they don't know anything else.
Jesus was real historical figure. Even in non biblical sources. And almost all historical scholars agree on existence of Jesus.
THIS HAS BEEN A REAL EYE OPENER OVER MANY QUESTIONS IDEAS IV HAD... EASILY THE BEST GNOSTIC INFORMANT EDUCATION YET! THANK YOU!
Art IS Truth.
The Logos is Fire.
Jason J is articulating everything I haven't been able to word.
My mind is officially blown. Ok great! Thx im gonna spend the next 3 years unraveling all of this!!! Geez thx!!
Jeezus. Dabbling in the likes of Popper and Wittgenstein as an undergrad, and still used a bit of Plato in comparative culture classes here in Japan, I thought I was somewhat philosophical. Jorjani is the real deal. His thought and ideas are so condensed, and yet expansive, this interview alone will take me months to properly digest. This is the first I've heard his name, so though I have come to distrust Wiki, I gave his name a read, and based on this interview, was surprised to hear "alt right". From what I am hearing, this is neither left nor right, just straight-up due diligence in the pursuit of truth. Alt-right? Ha. Jorjani can run rings around the likes of Ben Shapiro, and the host was much better than Lex Fridman. I am properly impressed with both.
I don't know how much to trust of the wiki-read, but was glad to find he shares a similar distaste for Ayn Rand, although for probably different reasons than myself. And I am glad to have found someone thinking along the similar lines as myself, though he is clearly a pay grade or two ahead of me. I suspect a mixture of "The Nobel Lie" and hubris are at the heart of this semi-controlled collapse of society. Though I agree that morality is central to sustainability of our species, I think a 'maximal trust society' is almost an oxymoron. My reasoning is because I think empathy is synonymous with morality (Frans de Waal's research on empathy in non-human species), and the extent we can empathize with someone as a unique and morally autonomous individual (Kantian ethics) is limited by Dunbar's number, a rough correlation between family/community size and the cognitive/morphological capacity of pre-frontal cortex. Though that number is a bit like the fire of Heraclitus in trying to accurately quantify, cross cultural studies show it to be roughly between 150 and 250 individuals max, with 200 the maximum size of chimpanzee troops.
I also think there is another genetically determined aspect of the problem, but not among ethnic lines. Research shows a persistent percentage of every population has predatory instincts ... the personality disorders such as Cluster B types, Dark Triads, morphologically defined psychopaths, etc. I just finished reading A. Lobaczewski's book on "Political Ponerology, the Science of Evil, and Origins of the Totalitarian State", and he makes a compelling argument that the sociopathic skeletons in the family closet are a fractal of what is going on behind those back door meetings at Davos or the U.S. Department of Defense.
But when Jorjani uses the word 'community' instead of 'society' ... implying few enough to be mutually empathetic within Dunbar's number, I am in full agreement with him. Ultimately, I think we have a problem of scale. Homo sapiens might not be a 'social' primate after all. We might just be nature's first, only, and final experiment with "herd" primates.
All in all, Jorjani is a top-rate thinker. I just downloaded the Kindle version of "Promethean Pirate" into my library, and am looking forward to a good read.
Excellent podcast for those who enjoy swimming in a sea of ideas - apologies to Heraclitus, but then again, maybe my middle name is Diogenes the dawg. 😂
I agree with what you've said.
To put it succinctly, I'd say "Morality is Dunbar's Number" meaning that the most moral thing you can do is do your best and provide where you can to the closest 150 people you know (and obviously weighted to those who you know best).
@@devonrusinek7698 Thanks for weighing in d., and finding another soul who thinks it is important enough to raise in comments. "Morality is Dunbar's Number" - wow. That wording packs a punch. We both agree that anything beyond that number may be some kind of organizational behavior, but I am loathe to call it "morality". I guess a mandelbrot set is as good a mathematical description as any ... preferably with some good music. 😅
@@stevemartin4249 Thanks for the response. Good convo. I'm thinking there could be a couple ways to interpret how I phrased it. In the one sense, it could be interpreted that Dunbar's Number as a concept is moral, but I meant it more in the other sense, that the definition of morality could best be narrowed down to caring for 100-150 of the closest people you know.
Morality naturally has a subjective characteristic to it, but I can't think of anything more 'moral' (or 'important' if you like) than looking out for the small coterie of people who you can help and who help you.
When you break it down, there are only a few things that are nearly as valuable. If you look at material things, some things like money and real estate come to mind, but if trustlessness pervades your connections, real estate can get trashed and money can't necessarily save one's skin if things get hairy enough.
Broadly, that amount of people that you know well enough can work well in times of good and times of bad.
As Hume said "Reason is a slave of the passions." Socrates is a slave of Eros. Although Socrates did get his divine mission of Reason from the oracle to Apollo, a sort of god of reason. A sort of divine madness. Reasoning to a fault. As Nietzsche criticizes Plato and Socrates for. As GK Chesterton said "The madman has not lost his reason, the madman has lost everything but his reason."
This was awesome, thank you both so much!! The ultimate conclusion carries a sublime ironic note - Plato is separating sheep from goats - just like another guy long ago said "my sheep hear my voice..." 😅👍😎
based
Yeah that would be AFTER Aristotle. Which is part of his point.
Yeah. When in reality the sheep are the followers who refuse to think for themselves, while the goats are the individualists who go their own way, while still caring about each other.
What a juggernaut JRJ is. Great rundown, Giantallmen. 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
Plato's wrealm if forms is still today thriving in the 4th (& most neglected) pillar of the Quadrivium. The adept practitioners of this system giggle at, and market to, the numerous Left brain dependant and astrotheologically oblivious... I find.
The tolPa of Plato is most rewarding when the A.ctive I.magination engages hymn with a playful spirit and an accurate planisphere.
I'm gonna watch again and pass this around quite a bit. Gratitude and Strength.
Yes😅
Very informative information, and a clear example of how important critical thinking and studying are for the betterment of humanity's upright human development.
The insight of Reza is astonishing to say the least, well done GI⚡️⚡️⚡️
This is the most revealing discussion about the evolution of western society and religion.very intertwining indeed.
Jason is a fascinating guy.
Dr. Jason Reza Jorjani is amazing.
🤯
Subhan Allah!
@@SubhanAllahInshallatrugg walk
inshalla
kinda weird to see someone with your username applauding such a vociferous islamophobe
That's not so terrifying it's AWESOME. And anyone who has worked deeply within politics, television/film, marketing, finance, journalism/news or corporate business, should probably already understand this. Maybe not on this grand level, but on a practical level. The modern American myths, George Washington understood this, the cherry tree story. Obviously, this understanding is deeply ingrained in Freemasonry. This is STILL how we structure society, with "noble lies". That hasn't changed. Just look at US politics the last 8 years. Constant lies, slander, by all sides really, manipulations, distortions, abstractions, and people just accept it coming from their particular trusted sources. Meanwhile, the things you hear on the 24/7 news cycle, the rhetoric, is not what actually goes on between left/right in the actual Halls of power. It's all theater and always has been theater to a significant extent. Obviously since it effects reality, there are real aspects. But the aesthetic, the narratives, the message...... Doesn't matter, left or right, they both use this same exact foundation in practice. And our modern media obviously are an integral part in this. This
Plato did what any intelligent person would do in that place and time. It just confirms what most of us understood already about all our myths and religions and a lot of the 'history". Actually, it's kind of comforting. Things are the way the actually seem in reality, and fundamentalist literalists and partisan masses are as crazy as we thought they were. Direct away Mr. "Deville". You always gotta put on your Baphomet pants before you go out.
Not neccesarily approving the conspiratorial but, Dr Jorjani is always exciting to listen to
Exactly
barvo! going to have to watch this a few times, and study plato! so much love for this.
I view Platonism and Christianity as basically two systems with the same goal: to create a feudal society in which even those at the bottom are sufficiently content through faith in cosmic justice that they will accept the “rules of the game” won’t revolt. After-all, both ‘Plato’ and ‘Christianity’ refers to a “broad” (Plato), “universal” (Catholicism) doctrine. It’s the Jerusalem revelations and the Athens/Rome way of thinking working in tandem.
This guy must have a lot to say about the philosophical step change with Zoroaster. Great stuff.
What an excellent conversation.
I see parallels with the Tao, when Laozi says, something like, "The Tao that can be spoken of, is not the eternal Tao." Or this one, "Those who know do not speak, and those who speak do not know", and yet he said that. Also Zhuangzi which I find hilarious says, “The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?”
― Zhuangzi, Chuang Tsu: Inner Chapters
Bro great interview, love the new style and pace.
Love your vids Neale. Always educational and informative,
Profoundly fascinating and gripping.
Multiplicity can't be an illusion. An illusion requires at least two things to exist: A mind, and a concept. Thus, if multiplicity is a concept, it is necessarily true.
Man, you have so much good content! Im trying to get caught up with it all. Jason is a great guest! I love this guy.
This is incredibly insightful, borders on genius, and is a potent insistence on something resembling actual anamnesis.
This is great content!
This channel is off the charts.
Fantastic conversation. Thankyou so much.
No matter what one thinks of Jorjani or his politics, one can’t deny the man is a master teacher of forgotten history and forbidden ideas. Wow. More please Neal, thank you!
his politics are extremely bad though.
@@iceblinkmender No argument there
Damn! You awoke me to a a shocking self discovery. My journey started when a Buddhist introduced me to Thoreau. I read Civil Disobedience, no less than 50x, and listened to it OVER 4 000X. And in this YOU made me see Thoreau is The American Dionysos. Damn! I have no sense of what it means yet.
"We walked in so pure and bright a light, gilding the withered grass and leaves, so softly and serenely bright, I thought I had never bathed in such a golden flood, without a ripple or a murmur to it. The West side of every wood and rising ground gleamed like the boundary of Elysium, and the sun on our backs seemed like a gentle herdsman driving us home at evening.
So we sauntered toward the Holy Land, till one day the sun shall shine more brightly than ever he has done, shall perchance shine into our minds and hearts, and light up our whole lives with a great awakening light, as warm and serene and golden as on a bank side in autumn."
[Walking, H. D. Thoreau, 1851]
I am fricken so confused right now!
About a fourth of the way thru this. Maybe Jorjani will address this later but I've had enlightenment experiences. First one at age 15. Never took a recreational drug. You can't describe it. It is outside of intellect or forms so the argument Jorjani decribes that took place (30 minutes) in leads me to believe Plato never really had the experience or it was a rouse. Intellect (no matter how refined) can't begin to touch true spirituality. It exists independent of phenomena. Intellect, reason, mathematics can only describe what goes on phenomenally.
What wisdom, or knowledge were you enlightened with? What did you perceive as the source of your Awakening?
@@donalddotson-cw5ll well the first taste was at the witness consciousness level. Later in life (about 15 -20 years later) came the void where only pure consciousness exists (there are no objects subtle or gross) just an awakened awareness of being. In the esoteric traditions., Witness consciousness is described as "dropped body". The next is "dropped body and dropped mind". This a very big subject but hope that helps.
What fun this was! Thanks.
This guy is part genius part ... nonsense. Its like an amazing acrobatic soaring manoeuvre that ends in a face-plant.
To summarise the basic point:
Plato was originally a playwright and changed that to philosophy.
Plato believed that a noble lie can be justified.
Plato wanted to reorganise society.
He wanted the masses to be lied to to trick them into cooperating in his political project.
Platonism influenced Christianity.
Therefore, Christianity probably is this platonic 'noble lie' that is made to control the masses.
Love that. Makes sense. I see the connection.
However, then we go a little further... The guy then says that it wasnt just made to control people. This whole religious psy op was made in order to persuade people to REJECT the religion and choose the devil instead. Umm.. I thought we were taking a political-secular interpretation of all this, but now hes saying its really a devil-worshipping conspiracy.
I think thats very stupid. So the elite created a fake religion, to control people but not to control them, so that they would reject that religion and take the opposition side .How does that help the elite? If the elite wanted us to worship the devil, why didnt they make that their state religion? Why do these elites over thousands of years want people to turn to the devil? Please dont tell me you believe the devil is real. Facepalm.
The devil is very real. Look into the Vatican
It is a bit confusing. The thesis from what I gather is that the people who can rebel beyond the Church are truly free thinkers. Not that the devil is real.
@@samuelspiel8855 okay I understand that- the state religion - Christianity or Zeus worship- is a test to sort to sheep from the thinkers. Therefor, becoming a devil worshipper is a mark of intellectual superiority and is good - or rather , realizing that Lucifer is the sympathetic one , and god is just authoritarian and should be rebuked, is the mark of intellectual superiority, not worshipping a literal devil. But then why is this guy crying alarm that they are trying to turn us to devil worship?
@@umwha Right, that's what I gather. I didn't catch him being alarmist about devil worshipping, I might have missed that though.
Personally, my views are mixed. I believe in Christianity solely due to nde testimonials. Although I also believe the historical elites used it to oppress the peasants.
Now I think the word is changing rapidly. I wouldn't be surprised if the elites are trying to figure out some new religion or propaganda to rule the masses with.
The noblest of noble lies is free will. Free will is a physical impossibility. It runs contrary to the deterministic nature of the universe.
1:21:46
“But what is Plato", Numenius said, "but Moses speaking in Attic Greek?"
Maimonides said “ that Moses was afraid to gaze at the light which appeared to his eye”
……….I’m sorry to see no mention of Aeschylus or Empedocles in this discourse.
I wonder in Jorjani has ever gone down the road of the psychological engineering Persia performed by creating Judaism and later the whole “philosophical”project the Persians performed in Greece as a continuation of the Peloponnesian War, the change from PhiloAletheia to PhiloSophia
I just made it to 1:45:00 . That answers my above question
@@Ieueseuei😆
Everyone is an expert these days !!!! HOLD TIGHT THE TRUTH IS ALMOST HERE !!!! Love John !!!!
so what he was saying at the end is that his whole prometheus project is a noble lie, did you catch that?
Extremely interesting and thought provoking.
Plato is mysterious
Yeah He even put puzzles/math problems in the Republic. Some of which have been solved.
@@TheLastOutlaw289 Or that square in Menon, man that is so crazy that he knew what is a square in 350 BC!
@@olegwiththeknowledge1729 yeah I just wish Greek philosophers would cite their sources more often. I suspect a substantial amount of Plato and the Neoplatonic knowledge came from a rationalisation of Egyptian theology
@@olegwiththeknowledge1729 Plato was also clearly a genius with high IQ that much is undeniable….I’m pretty sure all these major Platonic thinkers were geniuses.
Yeah right, the guy was a piece of shi7, and straight up lunatic. Plus he stole the work from Thrasymachus and copy it just so he could figure in history.
Only when your fundamental presupposition is that nothing is real and therefore truth cannot be known are you able to intellectually justify the idea that a lie can be noble.
CZcams is amazing. From Joe Rogan "is Madonna wearing a dieper" questions to this 😂
So Plato saw a divide in his dualistic western world -- which is kind of a no brainer. If you have a dualistic world, of course you will see dichotomies...
But there are entirely different paradigms, in the East as well as in the New World. One could argue that Plato only described the false dichotomy of the West.
This was crazy! Thanks a lot!
I do not know who is this guy but he is very talanted and honest. God bless him and increase his shine
This guy is wellspoken.
Best interview ever
On constant replay
Guess it's the most interesting and deep opinion about Plato's thought in CZcams. So that, I have to review it by my own. Neoplatonism has so many different approaches from Maieutic methods and results. And I'll do it also because Proclus's Theology of Plato.
I was on an archaeological dig in northern Israel and we found scythian arrowheads from the 8th century bce.
45:00 "the human mind as shaped by experience by the human body"
Separating the goats from the sheep 🐑 🐐
What are you after watching this?
@@Bluesoteric🐐
@@BluesotericYou?
Great episode! Jorjani is always interesting!
It always makes my hair stand on end when the pre-socratics describe quantum physics 2500 years before "modern" science.
Any time JRJ is on your show, i will drop everything else to listen, and to take notes for future reference in the hopes that i can afford to buy or borrow at least some of his books.
Pawn what you have to buy the books. Remortgage your home if you have to. Failing that, send Mike Murdock or Kenneth Copeland a thousand dollars. That way you will get a hundred fold return for your seed, and will be able to buy this fellow's books.
@@whitemountainapache3297 Interesting. Do you do that?
@@deewesthill1213 I have done it all. Although not to gather the money to buy this man's work. I did it to buy a copy of every single National Geographic magazine ever published. I now have them all ...
@@whitemountainapache3297 Why did you do that?
@@deewesthill1213 Because I believed that it was the only right and sensible thing to do. It was logical.
Jorjani's thought is amazing
He’s deep
'plato must have been pretty dim'
that is my assessment of the man.
Jorjani is truly the penultimate thinker of our time
So you think our age will end after one more person who thinks?
Penultimate-second to last in a series.
That’s it’s only definition.
My brain is exploding. Wowsers!
Caine killed his brother so therefore drew blood, so how do those believers that think he was good for not performing blood sacrifices get past that factor?
Honestly at this point, I’m chucking up the dudes and yelling “hail Satan” .. these other judeo-Christian religions are way more demonic and harmful
Jail satan
Lol. Me too. Never I'd imagined myself here.
@@thedante7722 😂
jason reza is amazing thanks for this talks.
My fave thinker, Soren Kierkegaard, also learned from Plato. Like the marvel avengers each had a movie of their own, and then were brought together for the culmination. Kierkegaard brought all of his characters, who each had books of their own, together for "in vino veritas" modelled after platos symposium.
In which book does he do that?
Incredible information. Thank you 🙏🏼
Wow this was mind blowing 😮
From the very opening clip I was hooked. Whether or not it’s true it’s absolutely fascinating listening to the case for his idea.
Great discussion! I love the little added asides that connect other details with figure lole Artemis.
I think the symbolism of fire is truly found in the transmission. That's the potent aspect of the symbol. Being pure transmission is the divine reflection fire offers humanity.
That's where I'm at with it...
This is the perfect capstone to the 3 videos they did before this.
Jorjani is in another plane, I have to listen the interview again 😅
Very good, i had an idea of where this one was going before i watched.
This was the episode i was hoping for that i figured would bever happen
Plato had secrets he never even wrote in those dialogues. Many of the more pertinent dialogues on metaphysics, cosmology and theology were not even written by him. I’ve heard that The Parmenides, certain sections of the republic were not written by Plato.
yes bruv, been waiting for this. looking forward diving in !
Jorjani is a rare type of mind
Jorjani is Boss level. Love this dude.
At the end he's literally describing devils advocate for Platos intentions.
Jorjani is most definitely an interesting communicator of ideas . his ability to entertain ideas he Perceives as genuine and in alignment with his thought is charming but be cautious the metaphysics of a space traveling destiny without humility it is a one way ticket for the anti humanistic. Heidegger was not dreaming about Prometheus. He had a traditionalists sensibility and a radicle take on the German vernacular. Our obsession with Grecian thought is the real shroud of over our eyes . Be round of your heritage and it’s wisdom you do not have to engage with Greece Roman ideology to understand elites want to maintain their elite status and want to control what we are seeing, reading, talking about and thinking.
Greeks were the best mr “kosher”
very thought provoking interview thank you
Yea
💥 thank you so much for your work guys!