As an ols engineer I can tell you that the ADAT system worked really well. USB latency and noise is a lot better than an old Neve desk with an Otari tape machine. Of course it could be better. Intersted in the DSD.
Due to budget a bluenode 2i here. But connected to my preamp dac, which sounds a LOT better already. Running qobuz which sounds best to me. Future plans, a seperate dac, but needs lots of inputs.... and free budget;)
Thanks for this video. exectly when I think an upgrade . I have a Blusound Node with a build in DAC connected to a McIntosh processor, Cant decide what to buy for streaming Tidal , The McIntosh have Spotify build in but I prefer Tidal.
It is my understanding that all that noise has been cleaned up a lot in the past few years by Apple (I cannot speak of PCs) and the USB standard (like USB-C). So, if you have something like an M1 Mac, it should be better if not an issue. Also, I read that Toslink has also been improved over the decades and, many of its issues are no more on newer components. However, of course, it all depends on brand, etc. too and, especially, the engineering.
Wait what??? The Toslink cable was created by Toshiba and transmits digital audio signals in audio equipment. This type of audio cable converts electric audio signals to light with wavelengths higher than 680nm. These signals are then transmitted through glass, plastic, or silica fiber. How does Galvanic isolation affect non-electric circuit/transmission, in this case, light wavelengths?
I have a Cambridge stream magic 6 Audio out to my Van alstine all tube preamp. Mcintosh MC 352 amp. VSA tower speakers. Start the system up in the morning and listen to the very nice music I get from the streamer. KISS!! is my cup of tea. TOO much techno jumbo for me. My system is on for most of the day.
The problem with separates is you have to connect them and every connection is a source of problems and costs (cables). That's why I slightly prefer an integrated streamer/dac/pre from a company that cares (something like the Brooklyn Bridge or DS dac)).
To the guy that wrote in. Don't sweat it. I use 3 $30 Google chromecast audio pucks in my 3 rigs. Digital toslink to 2 integrateds and 1 to a dac/pre......sublime sound top to bottom using Deezer Hifi subscription. I'd be more concerned with your speakers first and then components after the streamer.
I'm an audio enthusiast on my way to becoming an audiophile. I have a Marantz AV7706 connection XLR + monolith 11x powerful amp for streaming Tidal and amazon music HD. I have HEOS..app. and I hear a lot about bluesound node new .. for streaming .. what would be the difference? the DAC of the Marantz is very good. Wouldn't I be repeating the same thing? or would it have better quality? Thank you
I have USB to Focusrite Clarett. One channel gets horrible noise whenever GPU does something. Clarett is powered from the wall, not by USB. Same happened with previous interface - Saffire LE. The same thing - horrible noise on just one channel. Funny thing was, the Saffire was connected by firewire from added card in a separate PCI slot. So the noise gets added early (before USB or PCI route is even taken) in the pc? And there is nothing to solve it?
Using Denon 800ne streamer after using normal tv box and pc with spoti for past 4 years. Will never go back to tv box or computer for streaming Might be the dac inside streamer or the screening from external noiise ect but the sound is much much better almost cd quality Streamer connected to amp via rca so dac used inside streamer
Hi Paul, I am also a speaker builder and that speaker on the floor you have there is what I consider the best design, a narrow cabinet, the fewer the wide the better, I'll bet the designer made it taking the 5 inch woofer down to 200 hz, the lower the better because crossing over at 400 hz can create more noticiable coloration than at 200 hz and I want to confirm that, could you tell me which brand and model is that speaker please?
Galvanic isolation does not insure electric noise removal. The only thing galvanic isolation tells you is that electrons from one circuit can not travel to another. A transformer is a galvanic isolator (that noise can travel through). Optical isolation tend to remove the noise from computer and other digital noise sources. That is why MIDI uses opto-coupler in the spec. TOSLINK was invented to solve the same problem, just a very elongated opto-coupler in 3 parts. I have not used TOSLINK things that wasn't cheap import stuff (it didn't work). The cheap stuff is probably why it has a bad reputation as well.
I think that one of the reasons that people like using Apple computers for sound is that they use optical isolators on things like the USB data lines. This also is a good hardware security thing, so that someone can't plug one of those USB killers into your computer and destroy your bus controller or processor through a high voltage dump onto a data line. (It would only fry the outer portion of the isolation circuit, but nothing internally.)
Good evening? Where did u go to high school? I went to Awalt high school. I grew up in Mt view, what year did you graduate? I used to work at el Camino hospital.
I am currently looking for a streamer that only streams. It's harder than you would think. I have a quality DAC but not a dedicated streamer, generally I just use the TV for playing music from a service or YT, serious listening I use my laptop. I have always thought that I need to get the components right from the DAC on downstream, because actual streaming was more for background and party time. Now I have come to a point where I am generally listening to some kind of digital stream 90% of the time. I figure the only way to get the dac all the info in the cleanest way possible is a dedicated streamer. I believe the laptop has noise issues that go along with it, plus its a pain in the *** and the TV is limited to 16/48. Besides we all hate screens right?
I knocked out 2 birds with 1 stone with the Technics SL-G700 SACD/NETWOTK Player. Great sacd/cd player and network streamer. Although not advertised directly, it can do Qobuz through the Google Functionality directly from the Qobuz app in full resolution and I think it sounds great!
I did find something similar with the Marantz SACD30n.. It can do so much streaming stuff too and is one of very few devices that can stream Amazon Music HD natively. It does not do Qobuz though which I thought was very different. The quality of the unit is mind boggling and the price is 'reasonable' for what you get.
@@ptg01 I was thinking about the Marantz also and it is a beautiful unit! I really wanted Qobuz and so that is one of the things that moved me towards the Technics.
@@jaysworld5378 Absolutely... You definitely made the right call there... Well DONE ! Technics in the last re-incarnation is very impressive. Their turntables are world class at relatively reasonable price points (except their grand class TT @$18.9K). Their brand new integrated amp is amazing too but a bit too pricey for me.
The challenge with network streamers are you can get them for $200ish (ARYLIC) all the up to $22.5K (Aurender) and everything in between. Bluesound Node (coming out in weeks) is a new release that is very well regarded for $550ish but it's DAC is so-so. But in my book, $1K to $2K is a very good sweet spot. Some people love to dabble in Raspberry PI (John Darko has lots of videos on this). It also depends what your digital music sources are, where they are located and what online streaming service you are going to use (Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon Music etc) that will determine which unit is a good fit or not.
That’s spot on P G. You can get decent hardware at a few price points but it’s ALL about the software and interface. This is why Bluesound is so so popular at the moment.
@Douglas Blake Totally agree with your point... However, as long as a consumer is willing to pay the asking price, I don't consider that a rip-off as NOBODY is forcing the consumer to buy the device... It's the free market at work... It is UP TO THE CONSUMER to be educated and to understand / rationalize the perceived value of the products he or she buys. The good news there are a LOT of outstanding hifi products out there at very reasonable price points, especially if the consumer is willing to venture out to much lesser knowns brands. I discovered "ARYLIC" - great streamer for $199 back then. Hard to beat its price/performance ratio. This also reminded me of my younger days when I was a bit more fashion conscious. I had to get custom dress shirts made in Saville Row.. They cost $350 each whereas once can go to Costco and get similar shirts for $18. One person can say it's a ripoff but I felt it provided me with the value of something so unique, it was worth it. Today, my values have changed and I shop at Costco !
@Douglas Blake I totally agree with your viewpoint... Hence, we all should count on knowledgeable consumers to shed light to these types of practices through online communities / platforms... and many have ! I recall reading about a
Sounds like this is confusing electrical noise with digital signals. The two aspects are not related unless there’s a significant break in the digital signal - incredibly unlikely. Or is this “noise” referring to something else?
Guys, seriously; i have a good DAC. (Audiolab 8200cdq). What to use as a streamer? Is a android tabled or a ipad connected with usb sufficient? Os that galvanic isolated enough? Pls help me out.
What i really do not understand is how can "ones" and "zero's" be "noisey"?? I can understand that maybe an algorithm could be not so perfect in regard to "analog music"...But is it more like noisey from a ground loop point of view?
That's unpopular opinion, but you're absolutely right. They can't. With digital signal you either get reliable transmission that is free of degradation, without noise etc, or you don't get anything. There never will be added noise or distortion over digital connection. Bad will only have dropouts or no sound whatsoever.
Paul, I'm thinking about building an audio steamer with a Raspberry Pi. There are some DAC boards that are quite highly reviewed and a lot of info on the net about building a steamer with a Pi. What can you tell me about the DAC hats available and is this a good way to go on the cheap?
I just went down that route. After a lot of trying stuff out I recommend checking out Allo's USBridge Signature. It's incredibly quiet and sounds great. I highly recommend it!
Check out JOHN DARKO's CZcams channel. He covers Raspberry Pi's quite extensively but it's not for me as it does not stream Amazon Music but it does a LOT of wonderful things are very reasonable prices.
Paul, as a fan of separates, you should separate yourself from those speakers and send them to me, a poor classical music lover who will never know hi-end, and that way we'd all be happy. Thanks in advance!
I have 2 mono blocks and pre-stage and also an integrated amplifier and I also run via USB. The toppers are certainly the monoblocks. More powerful, quieter and better sound. But the integrated also sounds good and so does the music on the stick. But like I said. The monoblocks and pre-stage is another world of listening to music on CD. The most important thing, of course, is that we enjoy it. But I want as best I can. P.S. Listening to digital music is fun. But it makes me lazy. Even my ears won't listen and my mouth says, SSHHTT and now listen. And then I listen and then I think, music is beautiful, relax and pull your toes in, wuhahaha😂🥳😁👌👍✌😘 We love High end and music 😁
It's more expensive when you have to have multiple power conditioning circuits and optical isolation features. How much more? I'm not sure. It could be nominal compared to the sale price. Some of these DACs and streamers are in the five-figures range; a few bucks on optical isolation per unit isn't that much of a price differential in comparison.
Rudy Myers Try Cambridge CXN V2 (until Paul's is ready, of course) Reasonable price, excellent sound (I prefer Qubuz), Every couple of months is stubborn to connect, but that is it's only issue
@@aakar88 thanks, i am struggling with my OPPO, keeps disconnecting. i need a stable streaming platform that can index a 6TB external HD via app. considering a NAS and a streamer transport like the Primare NP5
For the money and re-sale value... The new Mac Mini M1 has HDMI, my DAC has HDMI, use my laptop to control it, run bit perfect or audirvana and it seams like you've got a pretty decent streamer? Thoughts?
Exactly, even if you're paying a subscription for "hi res" streaming and it starts out as such on the server, there are many links in the chain before it reaches your streamer. We as consumers have no control over these links, they're ever changing on a daily basis, and the benefit of purchasing a premium quality streamer will not necessarily justify the cost under most circumstances
Yes but that introduces noise from the diode and the photocell I suppose it's better than the noise coming in and all of these things need to have filtration what I'm not a fan of Direct coupling is better if you have a clean signal that is
I’ve not heard Paul mention what their galvanically isolated technology is? When I looked it up ages back I quickly found optical and close transformers and, as you mentioned, wondered how noise is not transmitted. It’s not like Paul to keep mentioning “it’s a gap” but not say how theirs is so electrically quiet?
Good advice, I enjoy your candid replies to the questions sent to you I just watched Hans Beekhuyzen’s CZcams review of the Chord Dave and someone asked in the comments if he would review PS Audio products. He replied that he is unable to get them for review. Is that something that you can remedy?
Depending on the laptop, it might not offer enough interference to be a problem. I have a MacBook M1 that takes very little power and creates almost no interference by itself. If I attach that to something like my Sprout 100 - it sounds beautiful and doesn't have any digital noise that I can detect. My older MacBook allows me to connect a TosLink connector right into the 3.5mm headphone socket and feed out optically, which also provides galvanic separation. (They don't have this feature on the newer units for some reason.)
I also use a laptop at the moment. You aren't going to hear the noise, because that isn't the way it works. Your music will sound fine. However, if you find a way to reduce the noise, you will then be surprised at how much better your music suddenly sounds. This happened to me when I switched from Windows to Linux. Windows has over a hundred and fifty programs running in the background at all times, mainly to report your every move and keystroke to Microsoft. Each of those processes adds digital "noise" which you never hear, but which slightly reduce the sound quality of your music. Linux, on the other hand, has maybe about twenty-five background processes running. The difference in sound quality was night and day. There is also a version of Linux called 'Audiophile Linux' which eliminates all background processes, and does other things to make your computer as "noise free" as possible. Basically turning your computer into a music server. I haven't tried it myself, but I have read that it produces sound on the same level as good Hi-Fi gear. Edit: Oh, and by the way, Linux is freeware! : D
@@HareDeLune Interesting! Have you tried volumio? How does it compare? I now use a raspberry Pi + toslink HAT, and on there I have uploaded Volumio linux distro. This way I can get 'Tidal Connect' (ie. stay in the Tidal app, but control the streamer, as not having to depend on crappy players). I don't have any digital audio files (hires files) anymore, so I purely use tidal as a source, and for that it works nice. In my other room I have a bluesound node 2i streamer. Also because Tidal Connect. Haven't really switched them yet, to see what's the difference, but I am waiting for my Hegel amp delivery, so will try stuff like that when I get that one in somewhere in the next few weeks.
@@Kah0ona I have not heard of Volumio. I will look it up. Thanks! I don't use a streamer myself. I prefer my music files, carefully ripped from my CD collection and encoded with the best encoder I can find. I currently use the Audacious player, which is built to prioritize sound quality. I use an outboard DAC and listen with Audeze iSine 10 headphones. Not an ideal setup by far, but it's getting me by until I can upgrade.
I'm from the Bay Area. the distance between Walnut Creek and Mountain View is 50miles. If you are taling about cherries and backyard/backlot tracks I think you mean Sunnyvale and not Walnut Creek. I like your products and your videos. Saving up for your CD/SACD transport btw.
@@vanpeethovenstudio The British Audiophile explained it spdif (toslink coaxial) is multiplexing. The transport is responsible for the clock. So your expensive DAC can't use it's clock. More jitter. It's only problematic with high res audio. You need to use usb.
Save your money and listen to your radio, tuner or your record and tape collection. Better and more immersive sound. Or if you really like streams, buy a kayak.
@@ag4640 Ok, correction, MY computer does it just fine. How do I know this? I compare the sound of music streamed through my computer to my DAC and played from a local CD transport to my DAC. Same music, same resolution. It sounds the same. There is no way a dedicated streamer or any other boxes or mumbo jumbo can pull more info from streamed music than my CD transport can. I have a high end system and any difference would be clearly audible if there was one. So, MY computer works just fine.
Paul has a great CZcams channel and most all of his advice is excellent, but he sometimes gets a bit hung up on absolutes. For example, the Bluesound Node (with internal DAC) is SO GOOD, that any improvement you might get from a separate DAC is not likely worth the extra expense to the vast majority of people. If we were talking cars, yes a W16 - in absolute terms - might be the ultimate (e.g. Bugatti) but there are a whole lot of cars with half the cylinder count that would please 99% of enthusiasts. Ditto for an excellent streamer with integral DAC vs. "galvanically" isolated DACs!
M1 Mac Mini is an excellent audio or home theatre room streaming source that is low EMI noise and high processing power allowing video playback and gaming in one unit.
I hear you. I am still a skeptic in all this talk about galvanic isolation but I am keeping an open mind, trying at least. From my perspective, if the noise in inaudible and if it does not affect the way the data is presented to the DAC, does it really matter ? I recall Paul was touting the Mac (the one that looks like a tiny pizza box, MINI ?) for years and there was never talk about electrical noise back then...
@@ptg01 Galvanic isolation is over rated. What is important is that the DAC’s power supply is very low noise and separate from the computer. I’ve personally had audible noise issues when powering the DAC through the USB cable utilizing the PCs noisy power supply and also when having the PC not grounded properly causing common mode current noise through the system.
The ultimate swiss army knife for all things hifi is the NAD M33 or the T778 if you want Dolby Atmos 9.1 surround. You have to spend 5-10X the cost of the single one and done NAD receiver to beat it. I know because I own one and I tried to improve on it by buying individual streamer, DAC, and pre-amp. Diminishing returns on a performance/dollar kick in hard when you go separates! But you already know that which is why you own a company that sells separates! 😂 By the way Paul I know you POO POO open baffle speakers, which is insane because nothing beats them, especially for smaller to mid sized living rooms where room boom in the bass is a real problem. Check out this sound demo of my new Spatial Audio X5 open baffle speakers played by my one and done NAD T778 AV receiver. czcams.com/video/DQDQFqH7K38/video.html
Choose anything that supports lossless, and request one which DOESN'T support MQA (if it'll save you a few bucks). You don't want to pay EXTRA for that rubbish, that's for sure!
Where you gain in separates - certainly in power supply, you completely lose by adding in connections and further cabling (that is inherently difficult to isolate from power/power cables). The streamer element should be incredibly straightforward, such basic tech and not at all difficult to make or costly. Which leaves the DAC. Why oh WHY is there such an extraordinary variance in the cost of DACS?!?! I would challenge anyone in a blind test, to truly distinguish/assertain/guess the difference between a €5000 streamer/dac setup (separate ls or Integrated) and a €200 streamer dac. Streamer/dacs are the new interconnects. Pure snake oil. If you're spending more than €500 for a dac and streamer, you're being seriously ripped off.
Streaming sucks! Maybe in 10 years it will sound ok but right now, dont believe the hype. I bought an expensive streamer that allows for a dedicated clock input. Run through a full dCS system with a dedicated clock it sounded alfull. It was more convenient but it sounded so much better to just burn a cd and play it through the transport. The difference was a comparable to MP3 vs DSD.
Reminds me of what Marantz's Ken Ishiwata used to say. "Computers are boxes of noise".
That's the point of a dedicated streamer. It's a computer designed to get rid of a lot of the noise.
As an ols engineer I can tell you that the ADAT system worked really well. USB latency and noise is a lot better than an old Neve desk with an Otari tape machine. Of course it could be better. Intersted in the DSD.
Got more info. from this than I thought.
Thanks, Paul!
Due to budget a bluenode 2i here. But connected to my preamp dac, which sounds a LOT better already. Running qobuz which sounds best to me.
Future plans, a seperate dac, but needs lots of inputs.... and free budget;)
I learned nothing about selecting a music streamer except how it might be a market opportunity for PS Audio.
Thanks for this video. exectly when I think an upgrade . I have a Blusound Node with a build in DAC connected to a McIntosh processor, Cant decide what to buy for streaming Tidal , The McIntosh have Spotify build in but I prefer Tidal.
It is my understanding that all that noise has been cleaned up a lot in the past few years by Apple (I cannot speak of PCs) and the USB standard (like USB-C). So, if you have something like an M1 Mac, it should be better if not an issue. Also, I read that Toslink has also been improved over the decades and, many of its issues are no more on newer components. However, of course, it all depends on brand, etc. too and, especially, the engineering.
Wait what??? The Toslink cable was created by Toshiba and transmits digital audio signals in audio equipment. This type of audio cable converts electric audio signals to light with wavelengths higher than 680nm. These signals are then transmitted through glass, plastic, or silica fiber. How does Galvanic isolation affect non-electric circuit/transmission, in this case, light wavelengths?
Thanks for your insights, Paul. I'm still relatively clueless when it comes to streaming.
I have a Cambridge stream magic 6 Audio out to my Van alstine all tube preamp. Mcintosh MC 352 amp. VSA tower
speakers. Start the system up in the morning and listen to the very nice music I get from the streamer. KISS!! is my
cup of tea. TOO much techno jumbo for me. My system is on for most of the day.
I did some fun research for a while around Walnut Creek in the 90's. Loved it, and 'twas beautiful/
The problem with separates is you have to connect them and every connection is a source of problems and costs (cables). That's why I slightly prefer an integrated streamer/dac/pre from a company that cares (something like the Brooklyn Bridge or DS dac)).
Have you even watched the video?
You r a great to explain complicated thinks to easy way ❤thank you sir
To the guy that wrote in. Don't sweat it. I use 3 $30 Google chromecast audio pucks in my 3 rigs. Digital toslink to 2 integrateds and 1 to a dac/pre......sublime sound top to bottom using Deezer Hifi subscription. I'd be more concerned with your speakers first and then components after the streamer.
I'm an audio enthusiast on my way to becoming an audiophile.
I have a Marantz AV7706 connection XLR + monolith 11x powerful amp
for streaming Tidal and amazon music HD. I have HEOS..app.
and I hear a lot about bluesound node new .. for streaming .. what would be the difference?
the DAC of the Marantz is very good.
Wouldn't I be repeating the same thing? or would it have better quality?
Thank you
I have USB to Focusrite Clarett. One channel gets horrible noise whenever GPU does something. Clarett is powered from the wall, not by USB. Same happened with previous interface - Saffire LE. The same thing - horrible noise on just one channel. Funny thing was, the Saffire was connected by firewire from added card in a separate PCI slot. So the noise gets added early (before USB or PCI route is even taken) in the pc? And there is nothing to solve it?
Thanks Paul, Clearest and most concise advice I’ve heard on the subject.
I enjoy seeing the workspaces Paul do he videos
The one today is the closed to my own
Except my computer speakers are larger
LMAO
If the Yamaha Rx-n600 receiver does not have HDMl input but only optical input then which streaming device can work well for music
Using Denon 800ne streamer after using normal tv box and pc with spoti for past 4 years.
Will never go back to tv box or computer for streaming
Might be the dac inside streamer or the screening from external noiise ect but the sound is much much better almost cd quality
Streamer connected to amp via rca so dac used inside streamer
Hi Paul, I am also a speaker builder and that speaker on the floor you have there is what I consider the best design, a narrow cabinet, the fewer the wide the better, I'll bet the designer made it taking the 5 inch woofer down to 200 hz, the lower the better because crossing over at 400 hz can create more noticiable coloration than at 200 hz and I want to confirm that, could you tell me which brand and model is that speaker please?
Vintage Sony
Bith PS audio and Chord dacs have galvanic Isolation as a standard . The best are Chord Dacs and PS audio Dacs.
😮😮😮
Galvanic isolation does not insure electric noise removal. The only thing galvanic isolation tells you is that electrons from one circuit can not travel to another. A transformer is a galvanic isolator (that noise can travel through).
Optical isolation tend to remove the noise from computer and other digital noise sources. That is why MIDI uses opto-coupler in the spec. TOSLINK was invented to solve the same problem, just a very elongated opto-coupler in 3 parts.
I have not used TOSLINK things that wasn't cheap import stuff (it didn't work). The cheap stuff is probably why it has a bad reputation as well.
I think that one of the reasons that people like using Apple computers for sound is that they use optical isolators on things like the USB data lines. This also is a good hardware security thing, so that someone can't plug one of those USB killers into your computer and destroy your bus controller or processor through a high voltage dump onto a data line. (It would only fry the outer portion of the isolation circuit, but nothing internally.)
Good evening? Where did u go to high school? I went to Awalt high school. I grew up in Mt view, what year did you graduate? I used to work at el Camino hospital.
I am currently looking for a streamer that only streams. It's harder than you would think. I have a quality DAC but not a dedicated streamer, generally I just use the TV for playing music from a service or YT, serious listening I use my laptop. I have always thought that I need to get the components right from the DAC on downstream, because actual streaming was more for background and party time. Now I have come to a point where I am generally listening to some kind of digital stream 90% of the time. I figure the only way to get the dac all the info in the cleanest way possible is a dedicated streamer. I believe the laptop has noise issues that go along with it, plus its a pain in the *** and the TV is limited to 16/48. Besides we all hate screens right?
I knocked out 2 birds with 1 stone with the Technics SL-G700 SACD/NETWOTK Player. Great sacd/cd player and network streamer. Although not advertised directly, it can do Qobuz through the Google Functionality directly from the Qobuz app in full resolution and I think it sounds great!
I did find something similar with the Marantz SACD30n.. It can do so much streaming stuff too and is one of very few devices that can stream Amazon Music HD natively. It does not do Qobuz though which I thought was very different. The quality of the unit is mind boggling and the price is 'reasonable' for what you get.
@@ptg01 I was thinking about the Marantz also and it is a beautiful unit! I really wanted Qobuz and so that is one of the things that moved me towards the Technics.
@@jaysworld5378 Absolutely... You definitely made the right call there... Well DONE ! Technics in the last re-incarnation is very impressive. Their turntables are world class at relatively reasonable price points (except their grand class TT @$18.9K). Their brand new integrated amp is amazing too but a bit too pricey for me.
Okay Walnut Creek California is in ContaCosta County and Mountain View is in Santa Clara County. Little confused about how you link the two together
The challenge with network streamers are you can get them for $200ish (ARYLIC) all the up to $22.5K (Aurender) and everything in between. Bluesound Node (coming out in weeks) is a new release that is very well regarded for $550ish but it's DAC is so-so. But in my book, $1K to $2K is a very good sweet spot. Some people love to dabble in Raspberry PI (John Darko has lots of videos on this). It also depends what your digital music sources are, where they are located and what online streaming service you are going to use (Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon Music etc) that will determine which unit is a good fit or not.
@John Gladwaller The “invisible hand” at work.
@John Gladwaller I don’t understand DACS in the multi tens of thousands dollars range. But as long as it’s a viable business, why not.
That’s spot on P G. You can get decent hardware at a few price points but it’s ALL about the software and interface.
This is why Bluesound is so so popular at the moment.
@Douglas Blake Totally agree with your point... However, as long as a consumer is willing to pay the asking price, I don't consider that a rip-off as NOBODY is forcing the consumer to buy the device... It's the free market at work... It is UP TO THE CONSUMER to be educated and to understand / rationalize the perceived value of the products he or she buys. The good news there are a LOT of outstanding hifi products out there at very reasonable price points, especially if the consumer is willing to venture out to much lesser knowns brands. I discovered "ARYLIC" - great streamer for $199 back then. Hard to beat its price/performance ratio. This also reminded me of my younger days when I was a bit more fashion conscious. I had to get custom dress shirts made in Saville Row.. They cost $350 each whereas once can go to Costco and get similar shirts for $18. One person can say it's a ripoff but I felt it provided me with the value of something so unique, it was worth it. Today, my values have changed and I shop at Costco !
@Douglas Blake I totally agree with your viewpoint... Hence, we all should count on knowledgeable consumers to shed light to these types of practices through online communities / platforms... and many have ! I recall reading about a
Sounds like this is confusing electrical noise with digital signals. The two aspects are not related unless there’s a significant break in the digital signal - incredibly unlikely. Or is this “noise” referring to something else?
I have the USB output of my computer connected to an ifi nano USB that has galvanic isolation before the signals goes to my DAC.
Guys, seriously; i have a good DAC. (Audiolab 8200cdq). What to use as a streamer? Is a android tabled or a ipad connected with usb sufficient? Os that galvanic isolated enough? Pls help me out.
What i really do not understand is how can "ones" and "zero's" be "noisey"?? I can understand that maybe an algorithm could be not so perfect in regard to "analog music"...But is it more like noisey from a ground loop point of view?
That's unpopular opinion, but you're absolutely right. They can't. With digital signal you either get reliable transmission that is free of degradation, without noise etc, or you don't get anything. There never will be added noise or distortion over digital connection. Bad will only have dropouts or no sound whatsoever.
Paul, I'm thinking about building an audio steamer with a Raspberry Pi. There are some DAC boards that are quite highly reviewed and a lot of info on the net about building a steamer with a Pi. What can you tell me about the DAC hats available and is this a good way to go on the cheap?
I just went down that route. After a lot of trying stuff out I recommend checking out Allo's USBridge Signature. It's incredibly quiet and sounds great. I highly recommend it!
Check out JOHN DARKO's CZcams channel. He covers Raspberry Pi's quite extensively but it's not for me as it does not stream Amazon Music but it does a LOT of wonderful things are very reasonable prices.
I'd be really curious to hear an answer to this question as well!
@@scbtripwire From Paul ? I highly doubt if he will respond to this.... Bottom line, let your ears be the final judge.
Paul, as a fan of separates, you should separate yourself from those speakers and send them to me, a poor classical music lover who will never know hi-end, and that way we'd all be happy.
Thanks in advance!
buy genelec ones kits so you will be happy. and the bigger you buy the more intoxicating the hifi hobby goes
I was amazed how much of an improvement I got when I put the Lumin U1 Streamer in my system.
Why would toslink sound worse then coax for digital? Either way; its bits going over right? Wrong bits = no sound, right bits= sound ?!
I remember years ago comparing optical to coaxial digital interconnects and coaxial was better every time. The Theta transport and DAC had both.
And I was there with you. I do recall MK keeping the fiber optic connected and not the coaxial.
@@christophermarino7387 Michael has a new store.
I have 2 mono blocks and pre-stage and also an integrated amplifier and I also run via USB. The toppers are certainly the monoblocks. More powerful, quieter and better sound. But the integrated also sounds good and so does the music on the stick. But like I said. The monoblocks and pre-stage is another world of listening to music on CD. The most important thing, of course, is that we enjoy it. But I want as best I can. P.S. Listening to digital music is fun. But it makes me lazy. Even my ears won't listen and my mouth says, SSHHTT and now listen. And then I listen and then I think, music is beautiful, relax and pull your toes in, wuhahaha😂🥳😁👌👍✌😘
We love High end and music 😁
I have built rooms that are galvanically isolated - it is not difficult. But it may be more difficult for a smaller product.
It's more expensive when you have to have multiple power conditioning circuits and optical isolation features. How much more? I'm not sure. It could be nominal compared to the sale price. Some of these DACs and streamers are in the five-figures range; a few bucks on optical isolation per unit isn't that much of a price differential in comparison.
Paul maybe you can produce something like the Bluesound Node at a reasonable price?
Rudy Myers Try Cambridge CXN V2 (until Paul's is ready, of course) Reasonable price, excellent sound (I prefer Qubuz), Every couple of months is stubborn to connect, but that is it's only issue
@@aakar88 thanks, i am struggling with my OPPO, keeps disconnecting. i need a stable streaming platform that can index a 6TB external HD via app. considering a NAS and a streamer transport like the Primare NP5
Interesting 🤨 comment Paul so S/PDIF connection is better than Toshlink.
For the money and re-sale value... The new Mac Mini M1 has HDMI, my DAC has HDMI, use my laptop to control it, run bit perfect or audirvana and it seams like you've got a pretty decent streamer? Thoughts?
In all respect,the best result I obtained it using a Daphile based computer,connected to my dac via USB. It sounds magic.
If look for the noise instead of listening to your music then you'll find all kind of noises. Remember, the goal is to enjoy music
Wonder what those speakers are there? Brands and models?
The speakers are Wilson s don’t know what models from the video
@@robertbyington7715
Cute little computer speakers
@@Stewbular
I think even the so called cheap wilson’s are $50 K don’t think the CEO of PSA would have those lol
I wont spend $2,000 on components just to stream a 128kbps internet radio station, or even 320kbps "CD quality" music for that matter.
Exactly, even if you're paying a subscription for "hi res" streaming and it starts out as such on the server, there are many links in the chain before it reaches your streamer. We as consumers have no control over these links, they're ever changing on a daily basis, and the benefit of purchasing a premium quality streamer will not necessarily justify the cost under most circumstances
Walnut Creek is nowhere near Mountain View.. FYI
Thank god for Paul
Agreed.
I believe you can galvanically isolated not just with optical but using transformer would do the same thing with a standard electrical signal
Yes but that introduces noise from the diode and the photocell I suppose it's better than the noise coming in and all of these things need to have filtration what I'm not a fan of Direct coupling is better if you have a clean signal that is
I’ve not heard Paul mention what their galvanically isolated technology is? When I looked it up ages back I quickly found optical and close transformers and, as you mentioned, wondered how noise is not transmitted. It’s not like Paul to keep mentioning “it’s a gap” but not say how theirs is so electrically quiet?
I go with a Mac mini/audiravna into my regards dac r (m2tech hiface USB to coax interface)
Separates make sense to me. DAC’s and streamer technology almost change faster than my underwear.
It does change quickly but if it's changing quicker than your underwear then you may have a personal hygiene issue.
@Paul Hunter: That is very true.
TMI.
@@arthurott4561 this might've been the joke ;-)
Paul:
You got that right BRO!!!
Good advice, I enjoy your candid replies to the questions sent to you
I just watched Hans Beekhuyzen’s CZcams review of the Chord Dave and someone asked in the comments if he would review PS Audio products. He replied that he is unable to get them for review.
Is that something that you can remedy?
I just use my laptop. I haven't heard excessive noise from it, but it's good to know that the problem does exist.
Depending on the laptop, it might not offer enough interference to be a problem. I have a MacBook M1 that takes very little power and creates almost no interference by itself. If I attach that to something like my Sprout 100 - it sounds beautiful and doesn't have any digital noise that I can detect. My older MacBook allows me to connect a TosLink connector right into the 3.5mm headphone socket and feed out optically, which also provides galvanic separation. (They don't have this feature on the newer units for some reason.)
Some laptops offer decent isolation because of the external power supply.
I also use a laptop at the moment.
You aren't going to hear the noise, because that isn't the way it works.
Your music will sound fine. However, if you find a way to reduce the noise, you will then be surprised at how much better your music suddenly sounds.
This happened to me when I switched from Windows to Linux.
Windows has over a hundred and fifty programs running in the background at all times, mainly to report your every move and keystroke to Microsoft. Each of those processes adds digital "noise" which you never hear, but which slightly reduce the sound quality of your music.
Linux, on the other hand, has maybe about twenty-five background processes running.
The difference in sound quality was night and day.
There is also a version of Linux called 'Audiophile Linux' which eliminates all background processes, and does other things to make your computer as "noise free" as possible. Basically turning your computer into a music server.
I haven't tried it myself, but I have read that it produces sound on the same level as good Hi-Fi gear.
Edit: Oh, and by the way, Linux is freeware! : D
@@HareDeLune Interesting! Have you tried volumio? How does it compare?
I now use a raspberry Pi + toslink HAT, and on there I have uploaded Volumio linux distro. This way I can get 'Tidal Connect' (ie. stay in the Tidal app, but control the streamer, as not having to depend on crappy players).
I don't have any digital audio files (hires files) anymore, so I purely use tidal as a source, and for that it works nice.
In my other room I have a bluesound node 2i streamer. Also because Tidal Connect.
Haven't really switched them yet, to see what's the difference, but I am waiting for my Hegel amp delivery, so will try stuff like that when I get that one in somewhere in the next few weeks.
@@Kah0ona
I have not heard of Volumio. I will look it up. Thanks!
I don't use a streamer myself. I prefer my music files, carefully ripped from my CD collection and encoded with the best encoder I can find.
I currently use the Audacious player, which is built to prioritize sound quality.
I use an outboard DAC and listen with Audeze iSine 10 headphones.
Not an ideal setup by far, but it's getting me by until I can upgrade.
Would Apple TV be a streamer?
Yes but doesnt do bit perfect. Coverts everything to 48 i think
I'm from the Bay Area. the distance between Walnut Creek and Mountain View is 50miles. If you are taling about cherries and backyard/backlot tracks I think you mean Sunnyvale and not Walnut Creek.
I like your products and your videos. Saving up for your CD/SACD transport btw.
Sounds like he's thinking of an actual creek named Walnut Creek (at least he thinks it was) in Mountain View.
I was thinking the same thing 😂
Just get Roon and a Nuc for streaming and you're done.
Hmm, why not improve the sound of toslink? Is it possible?
Toslink doesn't have a sound. The connection is fine, Paul just like to sell his own stuff.
so what is the problem with toslink?
Nothing, but Paul have to sell stuff too.
@@vanpeethovenstudio The British Audiophile explained it spdif (toslink coaxial) is multiplexing. The transport is responsible for the clock. So your expensive DAC can't use it's clock. More jitter. It's only problematic with high res audio. You need to use usb.
Save your money and listen to your radio, tuner or your record and tape collection. Better and more immersive sound. Or if you really like streams, buy a kayak.
Arty
Streamers tend to spoil HiFi listners. They are so easy to set up and sound darn good.
@@charlescalkins4732 According to your ears.
@@artyfhartie2269 You have "special" ears? Much higher quality than Charles Calkins?
@@aakar88 Not special ears. Just my ears. Not others ears.
i use streaming to discover new artist and than buy their flac. downloads.
Love your reviews shame not for uk they will be awesome
You already have a streamer. You are looking at it. Yes, your computer does it just fine.
Not really
@@ag4640 Ok, correction, MY computer does it just fine. How do I know this? I compare the sound of music streamed through my computer to my DAC and played from a local CD transport to my DAC. Same music, same resolution. It sounds the same. There is no way a dedicated streamer or any other boxes or mumbo jumbo can pull more info from streamed music than my CD transport can. I have a high end system and any difference would be clearly audible if there was one.
So, MY computer works just fine.
thanks for making the case against digital audio
Choosing a streamer depends only on how big your wallet is.
There are competing products at every price point.
@Douglas Blake do u mean arvlic or auralic cuz I’m not able to find one arilic. Thank you
Indeed. The prices for these streamers is outrageous.
Paul has a great CZcams channel and most all of his advice is excellent, but he sometimes gets a bit hung up on absolutes. For example, the Bluesound Node (with internal DAC) is SO GOOD, that any improvement you might get from a separate DAC is not likely worth the extra expense to the vast majority of people. If we were talking cars, yes a W16 - in absolute terms - might be the ultimate (e.g. Bugatti) but there are a whole lot of cars with half the cylinder count that would please 99% of enthusiasts. Ditto for an excellent streamer with integral DAC vs. "galvanically" isolated DACs!
M1 Mac Mini is an excellent audio or home theatre room streaming source that is low EMI noise and high processing power allowing video playback and gaming in one unit.
I hear you. I am still a skeptic in all this talk about galvanic isolation but I am keeping an open mind, trying at least. From my perspective, if the noise in inaudible and if it does not affect the way the data is presented to the DAC, does it really matter ? I recall Paul was touting the Mac (the one that looks like a tiny pizza box, MINI ?) for years and there was never talk about electrical noise back then...
@@ptg01 Galvanic isolation is over rated. What is important is that the DAC’s power supply is very low noise and separate from the computer. I’ve personally had audible noise issues when powering the DAC through the USB cable utilizing the PCs noisy power supply and also when having the PC not grounded properly causing common mode current noise through the system.
@@ThinkingBetter I totally agree: Do not power the DAC using the USB of the PC. I got an external Linear Power Supply for $250 and life is good.
@Douglas Blake So true...
Oh, you crApple fanboys make me laugh...
Walnut Creek is not even close to Mtn View.
The ultimate swiss army knife for all things hifi is the NAD M33 or the T778 if you want Dolby Atmos 9.1 surround. You have to spend 5-10X the cost of the single one and done NAD receiver to beat it. I know because I own one and I tried to improve on it by buying individual streamer, DAC, and pre-amp. Diminishing returns on a performance/dollar kick in hard when you go separates! But you already know that which is why you own a company that sells separates! 😂 By the way Paul I know you POO POO open baffle speakers, which is insane because nothing beats them, especially for smaller to mid sized living rooms where room boom in the bass is a real problem. Check out this sound demo of my new Spatial Audio X5 open baffle speakers played by my one and done NAD T778 AV receiver. czcams.com/video/DQDQFqH7K38/video.html
That’s the combo I’m thinking of - the X5 and M33. But I’m also very tempted by the Decware amps plus streamer plus dac.
Great informative show..but do you have a home...😆. Keep up the good work...
Or just get a nice DAC with dedicated usb, clocks and power supply.
Choose anything that supports lossless, and request one which DOESN'T support MQA (if it'll save you a few bucks).
You don't want to pay EXTRA for that rubbish, that's for sure!
Where you gain in separates - certainly in power supply, you completely lose by adding in connections and further cabling (that is inherently difficult to isolate from power/power cables). The streamer element should be incredibly straightforward, such basic tech and not at all difficult to make or costly. Which leaves the DAC. Why oh WHY is there such an extraordinary variance in the cost of DACS?!?! I would challenge anyone in a blind test, to truly distinguish/assertain/guess the difference between a €5000 streamer/dac setup (separate ls or Integrated) and a €200 streamer dac. Streamer/dacs are the new interconnects. Pure snake oil. If you're spending more than €500 for a dac and streamer, you're being seriously ripped off.
Streaming sucks! Maybe in 10 years it will sound ok but right now, dont believe the hype.
I bought an expensive streamer that allows for a dedicated clock input. Run through a full dCS system with a dedicated clock it sounded alfull. It was more convenient but it sounded so much better to just burn a cd and play it through the transport. The difference was a comparable to MP3 vs DSD.