This isn’t it…
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
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00:00 Intro
00:54 How machine learning works
01:53 High CPU Usage
04:16 First look
04:38 The "suspicious" noise
06:03 Disclosure
06:53 Testing
09:08 Testing the stereo version
10:52 Real tape test
11:53 Full AB Test
13:57 Drums only AB Test
14:44 Aliassing? - Jak na to + styl
did they also replace their marketing department with an ai? WTF was that 2012 Machinima music with TTS voice over shitty annimations video lol...
Better than the other marketing videos that all look the same.
@@Cynshet yeah the classic "being different by throwing the marketing budget in the trash" approach
The minute I heard "symphony" alarm bells went off
Neural network processing genuinely has been a revolution in audio processing and analog emulation, the open source NAM and Proteus are amazing. Calling Machine Learning 'AI' still makes me cringe
Open source NAM and Proteus? That isn't an emulation of the Proteus 2000 by any chance, is it?
@@blast_processing6577 Nope. I replaced all my Tape and Saturation to Proteus. It depends on the capture. Its like Convotution on Deeps learning basis. Next Level! The Baby Audio Tape and Hyper Technology from Acustica Audio is also based n that. You missed the revolution. I use The ceptures by PastToFutureReverbs.
I've seen AnalogXAI (yes lol at the name) and PastToFutureReverbs have a heap of outboard/recording gear captures. I tried some free ones and they sound decent imo but curious what others think as I don't have the means to compare with any real gear.
NAM is awesome, but still has alias issues. Proteus is ok.
@@pyratellamarecordingstudio1062 really depends on the quality of the model, and whether you run into it too hot. But yeah i use Two-Notes Genome, which is also neural modelling and supports NAM, AIDA-A, Proteus and its own models, and has about the best interface available.
The ChowDSP ML software is amazing too
The thing is I don’t think we know WHAT tape does. It’s frequency dependent, velocity, amplitude with harmonic character. All the devices I have tried are static.
The plugin seemed to lose the center image, or push the sides more, and comes across as harsher. The real tape keeps the mid channel up front and the top end stays smooth and pleasant.
Agreed.
That plugin really isn’t it 😂 It sounded so shrill compared to your tape machine. It does something nasty to the hi mids - almost sounds like a high Q EQ boost. Thanks for another great video.
Satin obliterated that thing. You can't beat proper modelling.
Yeah as you said in 13:50.... the tape machine sounds so much better than the plugin. Especially the lows. And the hights too, because they are not so harsh. Great video and comparison!!
True. Kind of funny since you’d need to do more EQing on the tape machine results than on the plugin results post processing. The comparison expectation is kind idiotic in that sense.
Dude, as soon as you put on the "real" tape machine , the kick become fat, nice rounded and puffy 😌amazing...
"a lot of aliasing" - aliasing doesn't even start above -110 dbs.
Its fine in terms of aliasing.
Yes, please do make the alignment video. Would come in very handy, as I have the exact same machine here :) I'm planning on recapping the PSU's soon.
That tambourine sounded harsh AF. Keep up the good work!
to me it sounds like if the real thing had way more impact on lower frequencies adding the pleasant warmth and some like 3D feeling? while the vst resembled something like ozone sound giving it that digital signature feeling which isn't quite polished due to the harshness
They didn't mention the tape machines they were training it on. Who knows, if the devices were already in a bad state to begin with and then AI just has to deal with SISO data (shit in, shit out).
Just to let you know, the tape M is completely broken when used in 48k. If that's what you're mixing in the results will sound terrible compared to what the plugins actually is meant to sound like.
What sample rate should it be used on and why would it underperform so badly at 48khz?
@@EpithetMusicTV it's a widely reported bug which they are trying to sort out. Not sure it's like that on all systems.
If that is what is happening here then he needs to replace the video.
@@millenniummastering that's why I thought I'd mention it 😎 It's a great plugin at 44,1khz, one of my favourites atm.
No one uses 44.1 anymore. If your plugin can't run at 48, you shouldn't release it.
where is the bottom end gone on the plugin, for my it sound like a cassette with chrome tape in it
Now they have a real reference with your actual machine. I think they will be very thankful for your test and be able to fix! 👍😉
nothing pisses me off more than developers who build noise into their emulations without the ability to turn it off. it's all because of fetishization of analog equipment which is way more important to some people than a good sound. drives me nuts.
yea make a video of you calibrating the tape machine dope video
so if you leave the noise on and the denoise the plugin it would sound more realistic right?
I really like the low mid width & punch that the real tape adds. It reminds me of the 495 hardware vs plugin comparison where the plugin also lacked the low mid width & punch that the hardware provided.
The term "AI" is enormously misused, for example there were server/PC cabinet manufacturers at Computex in Taiwan and AI was also widely advertised there. When they asked, what does that cupboard have to do with AI? They replied, yes, you can put an AI system in that cupboard. Blah lol. We also still have 2 Otari tape machines in the tracking studio. Much better than plugins. But indeed quite a lot of ssssssssssssssssssssssss that's what we filter out with Reaper's ReaFIR.
If it don't have that failing PSU 80's hum, I'm not into it. I have an Otari here, also.
Yeah the AI one is slightly brighter imo but it may be due to say the tapehead being cleaner or just the actual unit they used to test to is different by a slight margin as electronic components have +/- ratings on components usually like 1% 5% or 10% etc.. these values can make a difference in audio filter applications. Are these at the same gain levels or is the AI one slightly higher? You should snapshot eq to compare the outputs. Also I am wondering if the plugin runs at 32 bit float and what hz ratings it processes at? Analog is generally going to be as good as the ADA converter and its own SNR while the plugin in the box is going to be based upon the CPU or dsp engine running it.
Love the sound of the real tape. The plugin is cool for saturation and high boost and some crack.
Only tape does tape, however, I just purchased the Victor-Custom 456 & it's staying on my mixbus! The craftsmanship is great & it sounds much better than plugins. His units are built for each customer & very affordable.
im in my 50's, grew up listening to vinyl and tape. This sounds like a early consumer 1/4 inch 2 track reel from the 70's . which its perfect if you are trying to mimic that aged, old tech sound for period piece. i had a old akai reel and i used radio shack reels in it which sounded similar to that.
So when using any sort of tape plugin, should you not insert one at the bottom of your FX rack (recording to tape, assuming all analog plugins/pedals/boxes) and ALSO on your master track (printing of master tape to the stereo tape)?
your tape machine sounded fuller to my ears. listening through a quality set of headphones on my laptop through youtube and you could still feel the difference in that the real machine wins.
There is that classic soft but thumpy, large yet fitting low end of real tape - aswell as the overall smoothing of the audio, aswell as that dulled high end that needs to be boosted after.
I'm not sure what was happening with the plugin, if you was using it at 48khz, there is a known bug
I use tape emulation plugins to simply add some "analog" color - not make my mixes sound as if they were recorded on a reel-to-reel. I find this to be a much reasonable, practical and honest way to look at "this whole thing." :)
Would love to see a Tape Machine alignment video
Isn't that Sandworm by Ja Rule?
Your tape machine has much more presence in the lows and mids. It sounds way better.
Yes the plugin sounds bad... your tape machine is king
PeaceR " )
Why more lows and mids sound better?
@@TheHmmka To my taste, it adds what's missing in the dry signal.
@@DrKaoliN did he oversample it?
@DrKaoliN - absolutely: a much fuller sound.
Interesting. You can definitely hear the real tape rolling off some high end. The VST sounds brighter.
When I trialed it I couldn’t stand how the GUI worked. I don’t think there was a way to manually type in values which drove me nuts.
i wonder what the machine they modelled sounds like because i feel like this just didnt sound great in the first place without even comparing it to the real one
What kind of tape do you use on your tape machine?
I in fact do think it'd be cool to see a video about calibration/alignment of a tape machine. I never got to work with them, so I'm always intrigued.
Apple uses a Neural Engine, correct. It’s the same thing as a Neural Network how it’s normally called by other chipsets from Intel, AMD, NVIDIA and so on. If we take a look at Mac computers with an M1 chip or higher, they can utilize the Neural Engine by using the Audio Unit (AU) plug-in format. The latest update for Logic Pro (Mac and iPad) is using AI for the Stem Splitter (really good stuff) and also the Chroma plugin and the virtual players. This is an example that developers can use a Neural Engine for plugins utilizing AI powered functions.
The tape machine brings a really nice punch to the snare and kick with a smoother overall top end, while the plugin has none of that punch in the snare and kick with a fizzy sounding top end.
Just sounds like crunch
My tape machine is only a tascam-tsr 8 (12 inch 8 track 7.5/15 ips) however it sounds amazing especially for dub and lo-fi. The problem is each tape is £100 (i wont use new/old stock, too much sticky shed on 456) and i need to spend money periodically maintaining the machine ( needs new roller tyres just now, and probably a capstan belt replacement)
Also its a pain messing around degaussing it etc. mostly it just sits under a dust cover as it s a dog hair magnet !
SSL E series with noise gate on every channel. Whoot Whoot!
any opinions on the UAD Ampex? its probably the best tape emulation i heard so far
It seems that with normal tape machine the sound effects ower all and the plug in only effect the high sound
for some reason the real tape machine seems to be making the stereo image wider as well
cana san martin plugins?
yes it comes accross youtube, can hear the difference.
I always hear how snare drums are really alive on tape vs the digital whatever version. Tape is unbeatable
The noise is part of the analog sound.
Thanks for the Video!
I would still like you to try the UA studer plugin and the Kalifornia Dynamic Alkaline Saturation plugin. Keep pushing 🎉
They're good in both ways, the real tape sounds darker and fuller in lows while still gives that tape power
Talking as a data scientist with master degree, their machine learning department really don’t know what they are talking about, it requires a lot of cpu or gpu (gpu mainly actually) to train your hundreds of parameters, even millions, based on training and test data. But when trained, these neural networks weights are actually not gonna retrain anymore, they know their weight and won’t readjust afterwards.
I actually think tape emulation with neural network is a thing and can work, but the issue is not the model itself, but what parameter you allowed to the model and if you have too much of them, then it can be RAM and Cpu intensive, this is why you then penalize your model to have less freedom and still behave as a tape
I could hear the difference between the two even over CZcams on my iPhone speakers with my eyes closed. But then again, every tape machine Sounds different, what Unit did they use to train the ai? What tape did they use? So many variables…
Not sure if you have Logic but have you tried out Chromaglow yet?
I love my tape machines, but the noise can be left out as far as I'm concerned. The noise part is not something the actual model learned to do I think.
Something about neural networks in audio processing. What's usually done is that you have an audio file you feed through the device you want to capture, this means there's a before and after. When training the network learns what to do to the 'before' to produce something similar to the target. Now we get to running the network on your plugin. We put in an audio sample and we get out a new audio sample. Just time domain processing and no FFT's. A network like this doesn't know anything but the data it's fed. This does fall within AI, and is usually referred to as Narrow Artificial Intelligence. This means it's good at a single task. The content of audio you feed to a network to train is greatly affecting the result, the type of network plays a large part as well. WAY more to talk about but this should uncover a little bit of the mystery
Edit: not sure what they're doing with their APU's tbh
Please do the tape realignment vid pls
It's not tape machine emulation but a really good subtle saturation (the stereo version) 'cuz I can'not able to don't overdrive the 808 in my beats but maybe is could help!
youtube codec only lowpasses at 17 KHz in certain circumstances but in normal circumstances you get full 256 kbps opus audio low passed only at 20K
theres a stray peak on the tambo poking out thats getting driven. needs a little fabfilter notch
I thought the Low Pass Filter thing only occurs, when you rip something off YT. But in the App the Audio is fine. 🤔
You can hear the compression on the real tape and there's nothing on the plgun. I use Slates VTM most of the time and I think it sounds pretty good. 😎
seems like they put in a smile shaped EQ curve as well.
an imitation will never be as good as the real thing
Man, that smooth, lovely sound of the Sony 😍
The JH-24 sounds better than the plugin, but the original (bypassed) sounds better than either. It seems to me that they are 'Turning-Off' more than just the noise alone, when you turn off the 'Noise', they can fool people into thinking that it's the Noise making it sound better, when it's really just anti-aliasing being turned ON.
painful highs even through telephone speakers... I'm very sensitive to these frequencies tho, but man, the sound changes too much and the vibe as well.
Every saturator is harsh on high frequencies if you dont oversample it by at least 8x. Just load the saturator on superplugin vst and oversample it.
The plugin was so freaking harsh while also removing depth and punch. ^^
MCI sound very well with solid low end and smooth on top, but I think it makes no sense to compare it.
The vst is not based on your tape machine with your tape and your calibration.
You going to make a video on kraftur by soundtheory soon? (The gullfoss makers)
Hi! It would you mind running the training signal through your tape machine so i can run train Neural amp modeler with it? There is just one Studer available now and it sounds good but it was done in a rush i think. Let me know if youd like to set it up, it would be really cool!!!
I'm surprised no one has profiled Mix:Analog's tape machines yet.
@@sparella Ah! smart. But i've used it and didnt get the warmth that im hearing trough his tape machine. Also, profiling other vsts etc is concidered wrongdoing so maybe thats why
I’ll hang on to my neve 542’s a little longer…
They probably used a Tascam tape machine running at 7.5ips😮
Having a better tape machine is such a oxymoron if i ever heard one 😂
On emulation plug-ins, I often don’t choose “Noise ON” (because I just don’t like THAT noise) but I have a hard time agreeing with automatic “NO NOISE” approach. Because it’s part of analog…& we hate how digital never sounds like analog, while we laugh at ourselves for previously trying to make real-analog sound less noisy. Well let’s get rid of dither 🤷♂️
My point is the analog noise was doing something pleasing, even if we were gating it, etc.
Check out airwindows noise shapers
WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOU REVIEW THE GOLD CLIP PLUGIN
In my experience, 0’s and 1’s can’t compete with sending audio through actual circuits. It all adds up when tracking all parts through analog and then printing the final mix. If you record everything digital and then AB the finished product, the difference is not subtle to my ears.
Never mind the plugin, they already hit snake oil territory when that promo video listed self driving cars as one of the things machine learning could already do.
Jokes aside, my completely unverifiable gut feeling is that this is conventional tape emulation using EQ/waveshaping/etc. and the "AI" element is that they used machine learning to adjust the parameters of their algorithm to match a real tape machine until they felt it was close enough. So more of an "AI calibrated tape emulation."
A totally legitimate, potentially really good use of machine learning - that's pretty much what the Sonnox plugins are doing, and I use a couple of them a lot (especially Smart:Limit). The difference there is that they're transparent about what's actually happening.
Almost sounds like bitcrushing. I feel the plugin developers went as close as they could without thinking about aliasing and put the noise there as a quick fix instead of fixing the root cause problem. Honestly this shows that using AI still means you have to understand signal processing on a high level to implement things. These developers did not. I guess they basically have to redo the whole tech considering any regard to aliasing is missing, so this is almost like a way to get something out of a failed experiment instead of an actual product.
The free Cubase tape machine vst sounds better than that. I understand the power of NN for complex dynamic variable problems like effective noise reduction, but for a deterministic process like tape saturation? I think is better and CPU-friendlier to just model the proper transfer function and add some noise.
The UAD Ampex tape emulation is similar to this plug-in. It doesn't do anything to the bass, but it really pushes the treble, totally unlike your tape machine. The Studer does the opposite, more or less, and sounds a lot closer to your real take machine. But doesn't have the treble of this plug-in, unless you really push it. The plug-in needs over sampling. UAD process audio at 192 khz.
I should have thought that tech based on impulse responses and extrapolations between them would have been more promising for catching the qualities of tape in digital. I know that Acustica Audio and I think Overloud have taken that sort of approach. There would still be aliasing, so some anti-aliasing approach would still be necessary. Perhaps machine learning could have some application in developing impulse response-based technology. But this approach of merely trying to reproduce the output with different inputs over many hours might be a little bit of a blunt use of an otherwise sophisticated approach.
Real tape 4life, yo
Great video, thanks! It's wacky how in 2024 companies still sweep the aliasing problem under an ever-more-crowded carpet when making new products, especially when companies like Three Body, UAD and Neold have already made great strides in this direction year(s) ago -- for my vote, since I work entirely in the box, I'd find more value in having AI-esq processes directed toward minimizing the aliasing problems rather than making super-accurate emulations of the hardware... that I have to oversample a lot to use... gently... because they alias like it's '08...😂too harsh? Happy mixing!
There is a known bug if using 48k. Used it at 44.1k without these issues. The developers are looking to sort the bug. Definitely a plugin to watch.
no not really, much better options
The original sounds warm and lively. The plugin is cold and dead and distorts the highs.
The real tape machine seems to be mellower. The AI sounds like it's saturating a lot more of the highs, but not in a good way. Almost just sounds like a light distortion plugin.
Hiss is an integral part of tape. Perhaps a Dolby emulator might be more authentic? I just prefer to use tape..... even despite the extra work, because the result is predictably rich.
CZcams only lowpasses to 16kHz if the person watching the video doesn't have a good internet connection or their device/web browser doesn't support the audio CZcams is sending out.
czcams.com/video/OekQBS3V6Kc/video.html (Dan Worrall's video on CZcams audio quality)
The TAPE M AI sounds fake AF when compared to the real tape machine shown in this video.
Listening purely to the plugins and ignoring true characteristics of tape, my ears prefer the sound of the Tape M AI vs the Tape S AI.
But I agree with you that it's waaaaay to hot. For me this would be fixed by either adding a mix option or just having the drive range be from -10 to 3 ;)
Analog will always contain real soul, inherit to natural imperfections and real non aliased waveform curvature. Got a reel to reel a few months ago and never going back for final prints.
The AI tape sounds a little thin on the room tone under the bass. The real Tape warms that tone better almost giving the bottom end a bit more low end boost..
The website says
“trAIL versions available”
😅
Interesting plugs….definitely a decent price
Nowadays plugins companies just want to put the sticker Ai on their plugins as if it was some proof of quality. The problem is that using Ai becomes the first requirement and sounding good or sounding better than existing solutions is an afterthought. It’s like in the 90 where they would put lasers everywhere even when it doesn’t make sense like a widget that is supposed to help you stop smoking.
The plugin’s hi-mids are like sandpaper in my headphones, your tape was butter. If the devs did any AB testing, putting this out for people to purchase is deceptive. With that output and the weird promo video, I get the vibe that this one might go beyond the typical overhyped startup snake oil into a full blown scam of a development. I’d put money that there isn’t even any machine learning involved 😅😅😅
I rarely see on the spot tape sim and real tape A/B comparisons. Thank you for doing that 😉👍
I had to concentrate really hard to hear a difference in the top end, and it wasn't really noticeable to my ears on my mons. The low-end was more apparent. At first I thought the tape machine was a little more extended, but maybe it was just fuller?, or more defined?. I think this plugin sounds good, nothing wrong with it really.....but the AI bit is getting old, already. So the noise "feature" is trying to mask the aliasing ??. Maybe they should redesign this one?
There is always chances to update and improve plugins and they are trying to do it already. Anyway, it is fundamentally sound and promising. Tape M is not Sony to compare.
It's not bad... it doesn't have the 3D liveliness the real tape gives... I do find analogue does help with 3D like we might try to find in lenses in photography... when people emulate they always try to replicate the situation but never 3D liveliness you get with analogue so it's always slightly lacking.
That difference might be small but it's always noticeable even with cheap speakers... then if you apply that small difference to lots of tracks and you have a complete day and night effect.
It'll not replace a multi-track tape machine but it will replace not having the money for one... although, what it does do will not be necessary as much as the entire effect of a tape machine and so do you really need it more than other plugins?
The effect of this can make a day and night difference if put on every channel and then checked with all A and B-ing all engaged and bypassed then it can be quite a difference and useable... but not going to be a good as real tape is ever.
The real tape has an emphasis on the low mid and have a bit more presence and image..
Can I be honest .. I tested some Ai stuff like the neuron and AI master mix .. But i cant recomend it .. If you listen very good then you hear it isolate the sounds ..
Not what you want in a mix .. The mix will sound overproduced or just cropped and lame ..
I recommend not to use this .. Then you should learn when you need to compress because i noticed that much people dont now why they wanna do that ..
I made this week a new track with all these adivice form an audio guy. And i didnt use compression but I made sure that the sound sources I recorded were 100 percent good with a good microphone.. This is the holy grail for a beginner .. Be sure your sound source is very good and then you dont have to do much ! You only need some light EQ and reverb and maybe a clipper on the master .. Then Tape effect is not usable on every mix .. somtimes you want clarity or a hot rod fired up mix if you do metal for example ..
Here’s the thing about neural networks. They’re capable of expressing some really gnarly functions. And they’re hard to train well. It’s hard for a lot of inexperienced ML scientists to even know whether they’ve trained them well.
These audio processing modules (APU’s) - i don’t know they even really know how to train these well.
The -70db error - i want to know more. I wonder about what data they evaluated it on. People mess this up all the time. Is this on the training set? the teat set? You never know with ML scientists because mediocre ones mess this stuff up all the time.
I think it’s possible to do this well, but it’s difficult.
I’d be concerned that it would do weird, unsmooth things to my audio; feed in simple waveforms and get out very weird, subtle deformations / distortion that weren’t trained or regularized out.
If it’s just a bunch of APU’s - then it sounds like rather than leveraging the amazing power of real NN’s it’s more like approximating NN’s via a smaller number of potentially crappy but probably basic plugins over and over in series.
Interesting ideas, skeptical about execution.
Your tape machine just sounds like it has that EQ bump in the low end.
ya.. for whatever reason the low-end from the tape machine was COMPLETELY different... and more pronounced.
that is what tape does...
@@morbidmanmusic Tape can be adjusted and calibrated.
that's all? you did not notice the warmer upper frequencies of reel tape, the harness of the plugin