FE Engage: Mentorship Sucks (math alert)
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- #fireemblem #fireemblemengage
Emblem Byleth has a skill called Mentorship. It boosts your earned exp and the earned exp of adjacent allies by x1.2. It sucks. Here's some math as to why its impact is very low and you should probably inherit other things.
Come to the twitch stream! / originalraisins
Now you definitely shouldn’t buy Mentorship, given that the well totally blows up the SP economy
You dont want your whole team to be 1 level higher? For the sacrifice of 1-2 skill slots.
Even if this skill isn't worth it for exp, you still earn SP at level 20 (on a base class). It can speed up SP farming using cheese strats with Soren Reflect or Tiki divine stone, especially with Lineage too
Mentorship doesn't just affect the unit it's on, right? It affects every adjacent character too -- and therefore, it means you can rotate units in and out and ensure they're always gaining sp. when they go ahead in level, you stop making them adjacent to the mentorship unit and focus on another unit -- that unit will then fall behind and eventually need to be the mentorship recipient again.
That won't ever get them above the 1-2 level increase though. Because when you move them away/unequip Mentorship, they'll now be getting the reduced experience from being a higher level without that reduction being offset by the Mentorship increase. They'd eventually fall back to the relative level difference that they were at before getting Mentorship at all.
Your strategy could theoretically spread that 1-2 level increase to more units without having to put it on every single one (or anyone if you're just using the one on the character equipped with Byleth), but it won't get around the exp reduction.
@@carstan62 That's true, but the units that got a level ahead are still fighting for a while ahead a level. Imagine through the combined effort of playing with adjacencies, we are able to keep at least 1 - 2 other units ahead a level at any given time. Is a 250 SP skill that gives 1-3 units each a level worth of stats good? Compared to Speed+3, which is probably the best bang for your buck in terms of SP : value for a raw stat skill, giving one unit hp+1, str + 1, def +1, another speed + 1, res +1 and another hp +1, dex + 1, str +1 really adds up for the paltry SP cost. Of course, you get diminishing returns the more characters you add it to, but it seems a reasonable investment for at least 1 unit in an army.
I guess here's my point: Imagine there was a skill called Level +1 that cost 250 SP -- on most characters, that's going to add up to 2 or 3 stats for less than the price of any Stat+2 skill in the game. Once you take into account the adjacencies, I think it's a reasonable option. Mentorship is actually Level +1 but a little better, because it lets a unit play up a level without taking any exp penalties that would normally be associated with that.
@@idyliawritehorse7509 that’s a good argument.
In addition to that, SP is easier to come by now that version 1.3 is out, so the 250 sp is fairly negligible and there are 100% units who don’t need both Skill slots. Like maybe 1 level isn’t a huge increase but like… convince me that +1 level is a loss.
@Idylia Writehorse Absolutely. I m made a similar comment separately already. It's not very powerful, but it is very economical.
@@idyliawritehorse7509 The math you're doing is *technically* correct but misleading: buying stats with SP applies multiple increases to a single stat. Speed +2 is more than twice as good as Speed +1. Is Speed +2 better than Speed +1 and Strength +1? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. For stats to be universally good and on a measurable power level against eachother, they have to be universally applicable. In the case where you only need +1 speed to double an enemy, +1 strength offers you +2 damage, whereas another +1 speed offers nothing. In the case you need +2 speed, +1 strength only offers +1 damage but +2 speed offers 2x(damage).
Putting mentorship on Seadall I find quite worthwhile as he doesn’t really need his skill slots. Also if you have spare deployment slots a mentorship bot isn’t useless.
But then he doesn't have Canter or Quality time.
@@evanherynk5863 you keep canter on him but replace quality time. quality time isn’t a must and I know some people actually never inherit it for a reason like using Panette without wanting to heal her
@@evanherynk5863 I don’t find quality time particularly useful and he can get canter by having Sigurd equipped.
@@viviblue7277 personally id want sigurd on someone else. but i do that not because sigurd is necessarily great. i just think its fun to have on chloe and im not gonna use override with seadall
@@evanherynk5863 Mentorship is cheap as fuck. Seadall can still get Canter easily and Quality Time isn't even that great.
Glad to know the level curve ends up like this. I knew it did in Fates, but I wasn't certain how Engage's formula interacted with it so it's good to have something more concrete!
Good to know, and thanks for doing this. I questioned the usefulness of it since you barely get enough exp for the 1.2x to matter, but everyone kept parroting the same thing.
Interesting Video.
But lets say a unit affected by mentorship needs only 8 kills instead of 10 to gain that next level. The other 2 kills can go to another unit on a lower lvl which will get higher exp out of them.
No to mention mentorship itself can affect multiple units. So if you keep your whole team on the same level this will result in everyone being 1 lvl higher(after some time).
1 level on 12-14 units is a huge help. Overleveling will always lose you exp no matter if using mentorship or not. And the skill slot can be freed again for the last few battles if you wanna inherit something else. But since it doesnt stack using it on Byleth+Dancer and maybe on 1 more unit should be enough if you dont forget to take advantage of it in battle.
I like using it on Alear or Veyle because you want to stand next to them anyways when fighting.
Thanks for crunching the numbers, this is good info to have :)
Honestly, 150 SP for 1 level up isn't bad depending on the unit though. If you have a character that you mainly just want 1 powerful skill inherited, then this isn't bad as filler for a couple extra stats. Not powerful, but very economical.
Maybe if he was available earlier in the game, mentorship would be the kinda thing you inherit on everyone until you have more emblems to inherit good skills from after doing paralogues and main story. However, as it stands, Lineage from the 3H serves pretty much the same purpose in this role, is 100 SP cheaper, and comes for ‘free’ at the start of CH7. Truly powercrept by DLC.
I don't even know if you call it powercrept, more like "worse by design". The 3H ring dlc was available from day 1. IS knew what they were doing it making it many chapters earlier for a similar skill
I think you are making a lot of assumptions about XP, unit levels and Enemy levels.
It is true that mentorship ALWAYS gives you 20% more XP, you have proven it yourself.
Mentorship costing 250 SP isn't that bad, it accelerates the rate at which you level up.
Mentorship pays for itself after you level up 13 times: 13*0.2 = 2.6 (2.6 extra levels/260 SP). The unit in question should be around +14.6 levels instead of +13 in this case.
Most enemies near the middlegame/end game have high internal levels and produce a lot of XP, getting a single extra level will often not be the difference in drastically scaling down XP. It will reduce it slightly though.
This needs tested though, a one off test with mostly theory is good in theory but it needs tested 1:1. Two maddening runs fixed growths both running the exact same units using the exact same tactics per map killing the exact same targets and the results need to be posted. Otherwise this is unproven theory that looks good on paper but needs tested in practice.
I haven't observed my snowballed hard carry units gaining little to no XP per kill even when running mentorship, so based on my experience in maddening, mentorship seems good. I have infrequently observed 1 maybe 2 extremely over leveled units gaining little XP for early middlegame chapters but then returning to normal XP as I hit CH 16 onward. These units were internal level 20-25 early.
Promoted enemies tend to produce more XP as well, base class enemies tend to be low level and give low XP (the example you've shown here uses base class enemies).
I also think you are undervaluing the fact that Mentorship units that are overleveled can just let other units start feeding. In an optimal use case, you have all your lower level units with mentorship constantly getting kills and as your hard carry units taper off in terms of XP (usually only occurs early midgame) you feed the lower level units instead.
LINK BELOW: shows a Merrin who ran SPD+3 with Mentorship to scale XP/SP gain and hit 2.1k SP rapidly and now has SpeedTaker postgame CH20, only 4 paralogues done no DLC/online/SP Book nonsense from well etc. (Maddening difficulty)
twitter.com/IcedCoffeeGamin/status/1633768696148525057?s=20
I didn't make any assumptions about the exp gain, I drew all of my points from the exp formula itself, which I got from this sheet. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M-xdJ_vZjExMI2vpMhppZQu2Y38t7ofaso6N19DZYuM/edit#gid=28879599
I also know the levels of all enemies in all chapters from this imgur album imgur.com/a/vUFyyyZ
At the request of another user in this comment section, I actually did run a more empirical test on exp gain with and without mentorship. I will admit that I only ran it in excel, but at the end of the day I'm doing the same math that the game is doing. I took two units at level one and started feeding each of them kills.at regular intervals. The enemies started at level 9 (the level of enemies on chapter 6, where you can first inherit abilities) and would increase their level by 1 with every seven kills. I recorded the exp earned by a unit with mentorship and a unit without mentorship. I think you can agree this is a fair way to, as you said, "run two separate runs with the same strategy" since if you were to run two runs with the same strategy then a unit would just be getting the same number of kills on enemies of increasing level. The kills kept coming until they had killed seven 40th-level enemies, or 224 enemies each. The end result was that the mentorship unit earned 4032 exp and the non-mentorship unit earned 3920 exp. This is 112 exp in favor of the mentorship unit, still not enough to pay back the SP cost of the skill.
If you want to check my math, here are some screenshots of the sheets. i.imgur.com/9Hwnom4.png i.imgur.com/oUFUGmL.png
I'm also happy to just share any other data with you if you like.
@@OriginalRaisins Doesn't dealing damage produce additional XP? Doesn't 1 rounding enemies from full HP produce additional XP?
Couldn't you have lower level mentorship units get kills to increase your teams average level? I just jumped into CH 21 and killed a few enemies with my highest level power leveled units and they were gaining good amounts of XP per kill and 4-6 XP just from dealing damage.
I think we really need a 1:1 maddening run test to prove this correct if Mentorship is truly bad. At worst you level up slightly faster which means stronger units earlier, at best it helps you snowball units by giving them more SP/XP gain over a playthrough.
I have rarely experienced units getting no XP/low XP from being overleveled in maddening. The only time in which this was the case was when I did every paralogue and power leveled a few units like Ivy using bonded shield.
@@IcedCoffeeGaming Dealing chip exp (damaging but not killing an enemy) gives exp equal to "base combat" exp in that sheet I sent you. It's at most 4 exp on a chip. Notably, mentorship will never be able to round this up since 4 * 1.2 = 4.8
Onerounding an enemy from full hp does not provide any bonus experience. Killing an enemy always gives exp equal to the "Base combat" exp + "Base kill" exp.
If you want I can send you my sheet that I used to simulate training two identical units, one with mentorship and one without, and try to find a way to contrive a series of kills that creates a larger lead. I've only been able to do with utterly outrageous level differences like deploying base Jean on chapter 15 which is just completely outside the realm of reasonable play.
@@OriginalRaisins I am fine with you sending an example/proof showing how two units would scale throughout a run. I would rather see two teams doing the same thing on an actual run to confirm it though.
Looking at the raw XP numbers, units that have a level dif of 5+ will level at an improved rate while hard carry/internal high level units won't be as good.
It might be the case that lower leveled units benefit from this the most while hard carry units don't want it.
Even if the actual amount of increased levels is 10-15% instead of 20 because of how XP scaling works, this is still not bad on units with low starting SP, or units who don't have an obvious thing to grab immediately.
HOWEVER the WELL is a strong argument against Mentorship as you can now "buy" SP.
@@IcedCoffeeGaming docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kllgYfeZvGR6XkZa-GRXSRc3qy3YJ8xmeBpfwbVeX20/edit?usp=sharing
There's my sheet. Feel free to modify the starting parameters to test from any starting level you desire and then feed them any series of kills you desire. Just make a copy and then go to the 4th sheet on the google sheet.
This ability even implied from its name is meant to catch up lower leveled units. The exp boost grants higher experience to those that lack levels.
My guess before watching: it doesn't pay for itself in SP and isn't around long enough to make the extra levels significant. I wonder what our intrepid host thinks of the Edelgard version that I don't remember the name of. It's way earlier so it cuts into Canter SP, so I've assumed it's kinda crap.
i think it’s also funny that people inherit mentorship on multiple units. like, the skill straight up tells you that it works for adjacent units; when are you ever going to need more than, like, 2 units with the skill? (seadall, and your byleth engage)
if there were more meaningful level benchmarks in this game and the skill stacked with itself, i think it would probably be a decent skill.
Great video. I'll send this to every person doubting 1.2 exp. Now we need to wait for some people doing graphs and we are well equipped
A graph would be great to illustrate this point
True, 1 additional level (~5 base stat points?) really isn't worth it. Especially if you are already hitting max stat caps with starsphere. I think there is still a use case for lineage on a unit who is power levelling in the arena with 12xp per duel instead of 10. That unit might get 2 extra levels and the reduced cost of 150SP is more justifiable. The unit is probably also a carry and will have leftover SP after getting your end game skills loadout
I love math.
Real talk though this was a really good breakdown of the issues with inheriting "mentorship", well made vid
@@OriginalRaisins Nobility and the Lineages in actual 3H have more benefits I'd say. In Fates, getting skills quicker is beneficial, plus it's free until you need the skill slots late game. In 3H, getting to promotion levels sooner is also helpful in the early game. And again, it's a free skill, this time a personal which also gains effects post TS. Those benefits don't really translate to Engage
Thank you for the quick math, it was a good insight. I honestly think that not letting Mentorship stack with itself was wasted potential, because that would've encouraged to set up your units in smart ways to get a bigger level lead. Getting a boss kill with 5 mentorhip boosts for double exp would've been much more rewarding. But at least now it's good to know that I can just have it passively on my Byleth ring user + Seadall and get a slight boost from it.
Mentorship/Lineage are def worth it to catch units up though. Slap one on a low level unit with micaiah and they gain several levels over the course of the map, and the 20% actually matters. The well offsets the minor SP sink this would cost
And if I'm correct in my thinking, if you unequip Mentorship later, you start to slowly lose your +1 level benefit, right?
Also I prefer getting Quality Time on Seadall cos it works nicely with Canter and keeping Brave Assist/Chain Guard/Wind God up, as well as just general healing
Yup. The moment you remove Mentorship, the +1 level disappears about as quickly (slowly) as it arrived.
I like QT on Seadall but lately I've been taking it off as I try to do wrath builds
Thank you for saying this. I've been saying this since Three Houses, where people unironically argued that Mentorship is Byleth's biggest contribution. At least in TH, it's free and comes early, and hitting level bench marks for class certification is kinda important, but even then I find Mentorship to have fairly diminishing returns and not be the most important thing ever.
Personally, I probably wouldn't even put it on Seadall. Canter+ and Quality Time+ is what I used on him, and the extra healing was much appreciated. It reduced the need for staff users, and let those characters instead use their turns for more utility staves or just to attack enemies.
If mentorship only gives me +1 level lead, and we are passing enemy levels, then it's safe to assume you're surpassing enemy levels naturally as well.
In that situation, -1 exp isn't a big deal as thats 100 battles to lose that lead, however, other low level units are still getting exp besides that main one. So yeah, thay Kagetsu's level lead may disappear after 100 kills, but Hortensia isn't just giving Kagetsu bonus EXP. She's giving it to Merrin, Ivy, herself, and other units. -1 EXP doesn't happen automatically. It takes multiple levels to achieve that, so there's a decent surplus in that 20% lead. But you're only factoring 1 unit, not the collective earned.
Nah
@White House Official thank you for changing my mind, president Biden. Never have I known how wrong I was before your astounding comment.
Nice video, I've been using it but suspected it was not worth the slot. Also thanks for doing this on this map, I fucking love all of the Solm music. Queendom of bops, I've got that shit on repeat
Just for that, all my next videos will be in Brodia.
The math part is helpful and I was wondering where the benefit ends, surpirsed that it ends so early.
Not sure that it's useless though. 250 sp sink on one unit and effectively only re-coups 100. But let's say, best case scenario, the unit is surrounded by other units, they'd also get the 1 level and 100 sp. Hypothetically, wouldn't that be effectively +5 levels to your team and +250 net XP (spent on units who may be able to use it better). Additionally, wouldn't this also mean that after 5 levels of using mentorship, you can drop it and you effectively just paid 150 sp for a level up? That doesn't seem like a terrible deal at all.
It's still a terrible deal. You have to keep Mentorship on at all times to actually keep that level. Because of the rubberbanding in the XP formula, the same rubberbanding that caps you at +1 level from using Mentorship, when you take Mentorship off, non-Mentorship units will catch up.
Informative, high quality video. Subscribed - hope you make more content!
Doesn't mentorship affect adjacent units? If you spend 250 sp on one unit to keep 3 party members at one level higher, you've earned the sp back overall. If you can manage to do it with more, your profit increases. And if you have particular units that you want to get a skill, while others have sp to spare, you can effectively transfer sp over this way.
It's not a must have skill, but I wouldn't call it worthless.
So put simply, only very under leveled units can take advantage of mentorship to catch up quicker. Then the moment they are caught up in levels, mentorship loses its effectiveness.
There is really only one situation where this happens and that's when you ignore a unit for a long time and decide that you want to use that unit. I think it happens enough that it would be worth having mentorship, but putting Byleth on them is likely enough to make it work. Using Goddess Dance does give exp when your character is under leveled.
Mentorship loses its effectiveness the moment you get one level at all, no matter where you started.
@@OriginalRaisins Which is 6 level ups, because if someone with mentorship leveled up 6 times, they would have only leveled up 5 times without it. Though it certainly is possible that characters can get benched so hard that they still net positive exp vs. no mentorship after 2 level ups.
Let's say someone had a very bad experience with Chloe on her chapter and benched her all the way until the enemies were advanced level 10. Then they read up on unit guides and realizes she's really good. She is still at level 6 while her enemies are internal level 30.
If this Chloe leveled up 12 times to level 18, which means 2 extra levels, she would still be 12 levels behind the enemy which would still net a lot more exp over non-mentorship Chloe. This could go even to 3 level ups by leveling up 18 times to level 24. By the time she reaches that amount of level ups the enemies will have increased in overall level to beyond advanced level 11 since doing skirmishes generally increases the level of the enemies next refreshed Skirmish which would mean the enemies would at least be 7 levels above Chloe which breaks even for 3 level ups.
I don't think this scenario is entirely unreasonable. This could also apply to Alcryst, Yunaka, Jean, and Anna though they probably would only get away with 2 level ups in this situation. Even if they aren't actually fighting enemies and using Great Sacrifice from Micaiah, the same would still apply, but with different metrics for how the experience scales. I don't think 1 extra level is worth it, but 2 extra levels on a very neglected unit is pretty worth it.
Edit: Another factor that seems to be overlooked here is the fact that SP gain is tied to exp gain. So that extra level up is 100 SP with an emblem ring equipped. 1 extra level up for 150 SP is meh, but 2 extra level ups for 50 SP is great. I understand that if you just grind a little longer without Mentorship, you can save on the 250 SP, but the SP books you get from the well has made reserving SP less critical. I got 1300 SP worth of Adept and Novice Books after only using the well twice.
@@holycrapitsachicken if you're unbenching a unit that late, then either you're on Normal/Hard and can babysit them through a Skirmish or two (saving the SP from inheriting Mentorship by letting them hold Byleth if you *really* insist on using it), or it's Maddening and catching them up is practically impossible anyway
@@holycrapitsachicken It's more than 6 levels actually. Because the game rounds down instead of storing fractional XP, Mentorship's real XP gains are somewhere around 1.15 to 1.16x. Additionally, as soon as you stop using Mentorship, you start to LOSE the bonus XP and SP you got from Mentorship and the closer you are to hitting the 1 bonus level cap, the faster you lose that bonus XP/SP. The same XP rubberbanding that caps you at only getting 1 bonus level also causes you to undo Mentorship gains when you stop using it.
Two things you missed in all this Mentorship talk that make things EVEN WORSE for Mentorship.
1) Mentorship ACTUALLY boosts exp by x1.15. The reason for this is the game rounds down instead of storing fractional exp so anytime exp gains are not a multiple of 5 you lose a bit of exp from mentorship.
2) The same rubberbanding mechanic that caps you at only gaining about 1 level will also take away bonus mentorship xp and sp if you don't constantly use mentorship. So that bonus level you got, which in reality is only going to be a bit of XP until you gain several levels under Mentorship, can just disappear.
One way that Mentorship might be useful is grinding skirmishes. To my knowledge enemy level scales with you in those, so however much you wanted to grind (for example to max stats) you would theoretically spend 20% less time grinding.
Couldn't you make back your investment on at least one unit? Boss HP bars and kills will give a lot of EXP due to their higher internal level, meaning you'd net back more than just 1 or 2 extra levels using Mentorship. Also, Arena EXP which is boosted by Mentorship and Lineage even in maddening. It should also useful for staff bots who aren't going to be doing much killing anyway.
For anyone using DLC, since Lineage is only 150 SP, you're not really losing out by getting it and can use that + the adjacent ally boost of mentorship.
For some reason, only Lineage actually seems to work in the Arena. When I originally tried it (had Lineage, then inherited Mentorship), I assumed they didn't stack because I got the same amount of EXP from the Arena. Just tried it in Maddening, got 10 with no skills, 10 with Mentorship, 12 with Lineage, and 12 with Mentorship + Lineage. Went into a battle and killed an enemy, restarted, then added skills and killed again. 18 for a normal kill, 21 for 1 skill equipped, and 25 for both skills equipped.
So, Mentorship and Lineage do stack on the same unit, but Mentorship for some reason doesn't work in the Arena
I think my main issue with your math is that you are undervaluing the good points of Mentorship and overall it’s a perspective issue.
Sure, you get exp slower once you gain the level up but that isn’t any sort of knock against Mentorship, that is just a common leveled unit L. If you lose exp per kill when you level up, that slower exp gain applies with or without mentorship. In fact, with mentorship you will pretty much always be gaining exp faster than you would without, even if in practice that only translates to 1 level. You say it just gets worse and worse the more you level but enemy level raises too so it’s unrealistic to say your level increase would ever reach a point where that extra level from mentorship really punishes you.
Even if all that was true though, a level is a level, my guy. A typical level up is probably gonna run you 3-4ish stats, which means on one unit alone you are already getting some value out of it. Mentorship isn’t good for exp? Whatever, rebrand it to 3-4ish random stats in your brain and now where’s your room to complain? 3-4 stats for 250 sp isn’t a bad trade and people who don’t have super defined needs for skill slots are fine with it. It is a pure gain in those cases. And of course, don’t forget that this level bump can also work for allies who commonly fight close together. I personally think it’s too rare to rely on but the possibility exists those 3-4ish stats could also be granted to an ally. That is only ever good. Even if they eventually regress back to their normal level after leaving the mentorship unit, it’s still effectively like a 3-4 stat tonic for one battle. That’s perfectly useful.
But SP! It’s not a huge deal, really. 250 sp isn’t a lot, and as of version 1.3 sp isn’t even as hard to come by. Reposition is cheap, Canter isn’t but it’s still cheap enough your units will be able to get it with or without your 250 sp impulse buy. If you know what end skills you want, how likely is it that that 250 sp is going to truly screw you up? That’s some math I’d like to see.
The problem is it takes up a skill loot, and speed +2 is also really cheap.
@@averageman7769 It does, but not every unit will need both slots always - healers are a good example. Mentorship is a good midgame skill to switch out later, since it's so cheap. Even if you have it in one unit, if you play well you could have about 3 units get extra xp.
It might not be much, but it's still decent and it rewards positioning. I think it's worth it.
@@gtdfg4594 It’s the same sort of argument as saying an early game unit you will probably replace later is worthless because you won’t use them by the endgame.
Even if a resource only helps you out for a singular turn, it is a net gain. If a unit is only helpful for the first 12 chapters until you get a better replacement, that is still like half a game of utility. By the same token, +1 level may only help while you have the skill equipped but that is still like a free tonic for every map you still have it. Maybe in 6 chapters it won’t help when you replace it again but it helped you get to that point so it’s still a boost.
@@illialidur8244 Almost, except for that it's a net gain that's better than using a helpful unit that you don't plan on taking to the endgame, because this little EXP and SP boost can really come in handy if the game is as stingy as Engage.
It can help you in gaining an extra level or hability earlier to go more easily through certain difficulty spikes, for example.
Is it as reliable as Canto? Of course not, but I find it a lot more useful than something like Celica's Lunch hability because I'm always near an Emblem Refill tile or can easily plan to go to it without losing time.
Edit: Celica's skill is still good, but I've found it to be more situational than I had hoped, whereas Mentorship is always in use, and you can make that use more effective if you choose to
@@gtdfg4594 totally agree. And Engage SP isn’t even as stingy now that you can get SP manuals at the Somniel.
I don't find the XP formula argument to be that compelling in that it might be OK on underleveled units I *guess* (underleveled units tend to be bad already anyway), but the skill slot one I've always agreed with. Speed+ whatever and speedtaker and divine pulse and obligatory canter are just too good to pass up.
God bless you for doing the math. Something to keep in mind and wondering about your thoughts is it's use on support units or units you get and plan on using temporarily. Using the skill to benefit your other units only. Or with stuff like the Parthia bow doubling exp gain and also stuff like staff spam or Goddess dance. It also does stack with the Edelgard ring exp bonus if thats counted. Honestly for some units like Rosado 150 sp for a level up while I potentially wait for other rings to come back to get their SP skills seems still worth it?
It also doesn't work in the arena . Unlike lineage for some reason. Probably a mis translation
I've literally never ran stat boosting skills on my units until the final chapter of the game on Maddening. I've always stacked Lineage and Mentorship (as soon as they are available). Sometimes, I run Canter as well on all my units. Honestly, you don't *need* to spend SP on stat increases. That's why I always find myself unsure of what to purchase at the end-game. And I'm on my third run of the game now. (Decided to run Starsphere on everyone + Lineage to see how that was for the entire game this time around. Only time I ever needed a bump in stats was on Givre Port on this third run, but I'm also running magic classes only this time. And I just used the stat boosters (items (e.g. Dracoshield)) I had been stockpiling until that point to achieve the same effect.)
EDIT: for clarity.
WOW starsphere lmao. Talk about a waste of SP. 1500 SP and -1 Skill Slot for your unit to have +2 in every stat at the end of the game? Hard pass.
@@Cr4nched I said I was testing it out on this run to see how it felt. I never suggested anyone else should run Starsphere as well. My point was that, even without any stat boosting skills equipped, Maddening is still very manageable, even with a "sub-optimal" comp.
Also, I'm not sure +2 stats is correct. If Starsphere grants 15% growths to all stats, then wouldn't that mean that, over the course of 30 levels, units should have 4.5 more stats than units without Starsphere? If that's true, then that's like having all +4 skills inherited and on your units by end-game. And that's not even counting any *actual* stat boosting skills you may inherit late-game.
I only know you from your collabs with Mekkah so I didn’t know what you look like. But this video popped up in my recommended. About 6 minutes into this video I realized “wait a minute, this is raisins”
So mentorship is bad because it only makes units permanently 1 level higher than they would be if they only got XP from battling chapter enemies and actively avoid getting XP from another source?
Staves and support actions (that give XP) scale to the target ally unit's level so if the whole party levels at the same rate that bonus never drops off. The arena scales similar to staves but gives generous XP even if over-leveled. Skirmishes scale to the average level of your best units, so their XP never drops off as you level and training encounters give fixed XP at the end regardless of level.
All that said, there really isn't much point in inheriting it unless grinding training battles and the arena. For skirmishes just equip byleth to a qi adept to support the trainees.
Arena always gives 10 on maddening. I don't know how it works on lower difficulties
Considering seadall is the best person to give it to, and you tend to always do byleth dance on him, that 1.4 that’s a massive sp boost as sp is based off exp, and you can boost units to get skills faster.
how else am I going to manipulate my exp gains to be even, so I’m not losing out on the 1 sp that would otherwise be taken away due to rounding down? Without buying the dlc and inheriting lineage ofc. it was op in Awakening, Fates, and Three Houses. Also, if you’re on maddening, you can use extra unit’s actions to chip em down to the 4th onward combat round, as that will subtract -1 from the resulting kill exp, thus, 18-1=17*1.2=20 rounded down.
and that’s what I use it for. I don’t use it to try to funnel a fuckton of exp into a tiny number of ‘core’ units. as you have just demonstrated, that is extremely inefficient. And the overall avg. level of my entire army is always 2-4 levels behind the enemy, as it’s still my first playthrough, so I’ve been rotating units that I wanted to try out, so I’ve sread the exp around. Careful, strategical movement and usage of Mentorship has allowed my army, post Ch.14, to give them a little bump, reaching levels just fast enough they can hit those benchmarks.
In other words, I find this video to actually be cherry picking the unique situation in which you are funneling again, a fuckton of exp into one unit, and mentorship will not give them an objective level advantage over the enemies or in terms of 1:1 sp gain.
BUT, it will enable you to ensure you gain even XP/SP gain on the rest of your army, and the, although it’s a ballpark throw, I’m confident half of players like to spread the love around, and as such, with maddening’s exp cut, the army’s avg. lvl across the board will be behind enough such that they all see positive net gains through mentorship.
But let’s see the math before finishing and uploading this comment. turns out it was just cherrypicking when you funnel a METRIC fuckton of combats/exp into one unit, ala the set it and forget it playstyle.
Awakening's iteration of the skill was much stronger for two reasons:
1) It was a 50% boost, not a 20% boost. This was much, much more impactful
2) Awakening's exp formula had a hard minimum of 8 exp per kill (12 if you have veteran). This means that veteran was giving you bare minimum 4 extra exp per kill. Contrast this to Engage's exp formula which will often start giving you only 1 exp per kill (rounded down to 1 with mentorship).
3h and Fates both had a 20% boosting skill and to be honest both of those had a pretty similar effect in their own games as I outlined above. You get a one-level lead and then you are earning your next level exactly as quickly.
What kind of logic is this... Why do you believe a set and forget it playstyle (which it isn't) would net you more benefits when the hyperfocused feeding method can only result in ~1 level up for a single unit over the course of many maps? Mentorship is also unlocked after clearing chapter 14. You are definitely not hitting any benchmarks by trying out units and spreading out the EXP with Mentorship. If you were smart enough to do the math, you wouldn't be responding with your anecdotal evidence and asking "where's the math?!"
Wasting time in order to "experiment" and "test" stuff like this over the course of an entire playthrough when you could just datamine and calculate the numbers (enemies, levels, reinforcements, turns, movement, growths, chapters) is the epitome of working hard instead of working smart.
Also, how can you claim you're reaching benchmarks when you don't know the breakpoints are?
[Ch10]
Your units need 15 SPD to double the fliers, 18 SPD to double Rosado, and 22 SPD to double Goldmary. Your physical units need to double with 20 ATK to OHKO most enemies on the map.
[Ch17]
Your units need 23 SPD to double Berserkers and Halberdiers. Your physical units need to double with 45 ATK to OHKO most enemies on the map.
[Ch25+]
Your units needs ~36 SPD to double most units units. Assuming your physical units have 60 HP, they would also need ~30 DEF and 29+ SPD to not get doubled and tank another enemy. Your physical units need to double with 61 ATK to OHKO most enemies on the map.
Feelings, anecdotes, and personal experience are not evidence when it comes to math. Fire Emblem is math.
ok, yeah, devil’s in the details. but since you hadn’t said anything regarding the points I made, then both mine and yours in the video are valid properties of mentorship. Anyways, I had put it on pandoro, Seadall, and Hortensia cuz I couldn’t imagine any useful other inheritables besides canter for my support units. and merrin, because I eventually dropped her with her low 30% str growth.
@@thomasnguyen4427 I didn't see that you had an entire rest of the comment left to go.
What I said about Mentorship giving you only one extra level and no more is true unless you stay pretty much perpetually six or more levels below the enemy at all times. That's pretty hard to do. For one, it means you're using massively underleveled units, and for two, it means you're limiting yourself to maybe three kills per map max per unit.
I don't think it's unreasonable, especially on maddening, to funnel large amounts of exp into a few units and then have the other half (or so) of your army perform supportive roles. That's basically been the strongest way to play Fire Emblem since the start. I do not think it was an unfair assumption on my part to think that your units would always be +- 5 levels from the enemy.
oh, that’s probably then a difference in playstyle, and thus, input-output results. Just like with the most sensible tier lists being based off of relative ease-of-use and investment returns, finishing the game using the playstyle you mentioned makes that goal easier than a player like me who shares the love. I can still complete the game, it just requires flexing more tactical brainpower than just throwing an int.lv.50 meta built >10,000 sp acquired unit to one round everything on enemy phase.
as such, mentorship helps keep the army that I am using at a competitive level, and helps them catch up to a respectable combat level.
oh yeah, should also mention that yep, about a third of my 14-endgame slotted army are indeed 300 hrs in), my first few turns I was able to clear out the sides before tackling Byleth's squad.
Another plus to mentorship, is again, as a factor of being lower level, it's more likely I'll be gaining even XP-SP gains rather than the odd numbers you get at the start of the game, even after you get bond rings for your army. The only objective downside to inheriting mentorship I agree is that A) it sets that unit back 250 sp if you plan to have them acquire MORE than one 1k skill; B) similar to A, it takes a slot, even if the other skills are also lower-cost; C) the math shows that for higher or at levels player units, mentorship has a neutral or even negative return
But then again, slapping it on the mid-game recruits costs nothing cuz they already come loaded with over 1k sp, so 250 isn't that much of a setback, and they're also numerous that you can decide who gets burdened with it and who doesn't, depending on your preferences. Put it on Bunet, lol, and make him into a mentorbot. Too bad no staff access without DLC, can't turn him into a Qi Adept who just spams chain guard every turn, heals and procs passive
All i see here is that mentorship is good on units who need to catch up on levels that you are bringing in late, specially affordably now that sp books are a thing
So what i got from this video is that lineage is unusably aweful, glad i wasnt able to justify taking it on literaly everyone like people online were recomending.
The specific advantage mentorship has over lineage is that only 1 units is learning the skill. So your actual math is closer to spending 250 sp on a unit to give all your other units +1 levels.
Although this can be done just using byleth ring without needing to teach the skill.
Also same as lineage unequiping the skill will cause the exp lead to gradually drop off.
Since mentorship equals +1 level as you said, i guess you should consider the stat gained for 1 level. So basically mentorship is equals -150 SP and 1hp, 0.5str, 0.5agi 0.4dex etc.. 0.5def, 0.5res etc.
Then ill choose mentorship than speed+3.
It's +1 level in terms of stats *after* at least 10 rounds of combat where the unit one rounds, so might want to recalculate. Not to mention the -1 skill slot and the game rounds down so instead of 0.5 worth of stats it will be 0.
@@gameplayerone3917 we are talking on average, so the decimals roughly matter. In actual stats reality though there’s “good” levelups that are worth +4 to 8 stats and “bad” ones that are worth less.
So sometimes, Mentorship is better than Speed+3
@@malcovich_games That's not how it works... Your next level up stats are predetermined (even with random growths) and you cannot reset or affect the *next* level up seed in any way. Here's an example:
1. My level 7 Lapis reaches level 8 and gets only +1 Res and +1 HP on Chapter 15.
2. I reload the save and bench her until the next chapter, change her class, she's back to level 1, and allow her to inherit Starsphere
3. My reclassed level 1 Lapis with Starsphere will still receive +1 Res and +1 HP upon reaching the next level (2) on Chapter 16.
So no, it's not even sometimes better.
@@calvin659 I am not even talking about the inner calculations of the game and I’m not even talking about averages.
I am talking about what’s already on the screen. Like the video says, Mentorship puts a character 1 level ahead per map but you earn this extra level during a map. So ya see that “good” or “bad” level up, that’s what is compared to speed+3 for the benefit you got from Mentorship.
P.S. while the stats for level advantage are gained during a map, the same character without mentorship will be going through the previous (character) level with roughly the same level up timing, that’s not a consideration.
Thank you for explaining how leveling works in the game! But I wouldn't say mentorship or lineage skill sucks. Based on your logic, these skills work wonders to level up under leveled units against higher level enemies which is always the case to benched units while enemies keep getting higher level as story progresses.
Mentorship is best for characters that have fallen behind or to get class skills sooner. I would use it right after using a seal to get a character into the desired advanced class until they hit level 5. It would also be great for both Jean and Anna if you got it earlier in the game. Which is why I think the devs gave Edelguard Lineage in the DLC at chapter 6... Right after you get Jean and right before you get Anna.
Maybe the math is different on hard vs maddening? I found it very useful on hard. But just for mid game. End game transitioning to other skills.
This seems like a skill that could be useful for playthroughs that are completly routed like TAS runs, but because of FEs system of giving you exp depending on your level in relation to your enemy, this is nothing more then a skill, that could make it easier for units that are behind to catch back up faster. But is that worse it? Probably not.
hmmm i still think this is something that needs to be done over the course of a run with like a few users of mentorship, since the issue only arises if you dont change the way you play, but lets say you are able to diverse your exp across the board more while still staying at the same favourable level ranges? Then you'd theoretically get the 20% bonus with no exp downside like in the video
There will always be an exp downside though. For example, if you spread your experience out without Mentorship and end up a lower level, then the exp formula will give you bonus experience to catch you up that you'll miss out on with Mentorship.
I'm also not sure how much you're planning on spreading your experience out when there's a limit to the number of units you can deploy anyway.
There are 2 potential uses I can see for Mentorship.
1) I believe Seadall's dance doesn't compare his level to anyone else's. If so, then it should function how people expected on him specifically.
2) If you're planning on low-manning and funneling a ton of experience into a much smaller team of units, then you might have them over-leveled to the point of always being at the worst modifier anyway. In which case, it can't move you up to worse exp bracket if a worse one doesn't exist.
So I guess the use case of mentorship is to catch a level deficit up huh? Rounding down is a bit less bad when the numbers get bigger too, so things like Micaiah recover get some value.
I've been doing a maddening no paralogues/DLC/stat booster/engrave run, and I decided to throw mentorship on Clanne who is presently accomplishing very little combat related since everyone's waaaay behind the level curve, and I have been finding it more noticeable than my first run.
Very informative and well explained video. I didn't realize this is how it actually worked in practice.
If mentorship worked in the Arena like Lineage this would be a different story as Arena gives flat EXP at any level. That could easily be +2 levels in a playthrough by training alone
I love the fire emblem community
Isn't the math more favorable if you're using it on a support staff user? I am under the impression that healing exp is calculated relative to the level of the unit you healed and stuff like obstruct is just flat. I could be wrong.
Therefore it might be helpful to inherit it on a unit that's going to be mainly supporting and might otherwise fall behind in levels.
Would love to know your thoughts
It’s probs helpful for a support unit who always gets behind in levels and has access to actions like Obstruct that always have a fixed levelup. And also someone that will usually get Goddess Danced (that is, Seadall), so the support can be moved adjacent to other units and give them the benefit.
edit; Just remembered that mentorship was a sync skill. Optimal user of Byleth (exp wise) is any non-Seadall unit that’s behind in exp, anyway.
I don't fully understand the staff exp formula though there are inherits like divine pulse, canter, and staff mastery that I generally prefer to put on instead.
In general I find that inheriting in on Seadall and then also just having it on your Byleth holder (not inheriting, just using it as a sync skill) is enough to be occasionally boosting your army's exp gain.
@@OriginalRaisins Personaly, I would just safe for Canter+ over getting Mentorship and Seadall almost never has a Ring so he probably gains that slow to begin with.
And even then, you could also use status inmunity skills to prevent him for being Frozen or something like that.
Due to the diminished return of the xp formula of higher leveled units, would you say that mentorship/lineage can at least help extend your "viable unit roster)? Maybe not considered efficient since you only ever need 14 units tops, but sometimes players might have specialists that they may not want to field every map (eg. Fliers on Lyn paralogue), and having more units than the deployment slots might give more flexibility.
So rather than being a way to get ahead/earn your sp, it's more of a catch-up mechanic?
Mentorship is super filler, but tbh spd +3, Reposition and Canter are so overpowered compared to any other skills that it's very rare to need anything else (except for powerful niche builds like dual assist hero)
It’s funny that it’s just as expensive as divine pulse, which by itself makes you hit at least over half your hits if you have at least 20 luck.
If you're just trying to get through the game of course it's not worth it when you can inherit something useful, but if you want to make a master file maxing all units it's definitely worth the skill points to pass out like candy. You don't NEED any inherit skills to beat the game regardless of difficulty so you're free to inherit whatever you want, heck I've hit the stat caps on multiple units and never bothered to inherit anything that is actually useful to combat and on Maddening you can still leave units in the middle of swaths of enemies and them be fine. Mentorship is one of the better skills to inherit, it's cheap and to cap out your stats you'll need about 80 levels per character to hit the cap on major stats and a lot more if you want to max off stats like Magic on your Berserkers/Warriors etc (on Maddening where levels are fixed). If you don't value your time or aren't trying to create a file with all the characters capped out then you're much better off inheriting something else.
If you need something to complete the game with it's best to focus on cheap skills as inheriting the expensive ones can be costly which isn't much of a problem post game when you can farm the tower for SP scrolls whilst maxing out your emblem weapons and getting some marginal experience to boot, but through the normal course of the game you don't actually get that much SP so keeping it cheap is the way to go.
If you have the DLC Starsphere is 100% the go to to inherit 15% to all stat growths saves time and effort both in game and when trying to hit the caps especially useful for gaining build on certain classes like Mages.
Favorite food is dirt cheap and allows you max out your engage meter for eating packed lunch it's definitely worth inheriting especially on Alear who can then use Engage + allowing two units to use one of the strongest Emblems in the game in rapid succession. The AoE Avo/Hit alone is worth it, but having access to effective Corrupted for the end stages and Effective Fell Dragon for the last stage makes it much easier. Outside of that the Avo/Hit being an AoE buff is very helpful for the higher stat classes like Griffin Knight who are good, but can't use cover for additional Avo like Thiefs or Swordmasters can so it can keep them around much longer plus depending on who you gave the Pact Ring to Emblem Alear's Emblem Weapons can be quite strong particularly the Art that runs off Magic instead of the average of Mag and Strength like the rest of the arts. Having a non S Rank Tome that can attack upto 4x instead of just two can delete units combined with the raw stat boots you can get from Attuned and a very strong Emblem Attack in Bond Blast makes it easily one of the best emblems out there coupled with the fact that you Alear simply needs a full Engage meter so you don't have to sacrifice any specific Emblem to convert a mediocre emblem like Leif into Emblem Alear.
Vantage is strong on pretty much anybody as getting the first attack off can save your life more often than most other inheritable skills and it's relatively cheap.
Alacrity on your fast classes that can't afford taking additional damage on your turn especially when combined with Canter to then retreat out of harms way a bit is a pretty solid combo.
Healing Light for your staff users is just a nice cheap convenience along with Silence Ward so you can always heal if need be.
Dual Support for Alear makes sense since they can have a bond with every character and are the only character that can actually hit +90 Avo when using. Even next to an A rank support is +20Avo making it a good return on investment for even moderately quick characters especially when comparing it to something like Avoid+ which costs 4500 SP for +30 Avo. Dual Support costs 2000 can gets +20 for one A support, +40 for two A supports, +60 for three, and +80 for four. With Alear and whomever they gave the Pact Ring to it's +30 Avo for the two simply being adjacent to each other and that's a bargain.
Dual Assist+ for Heros so they can chain attack with their personal skill in more scenarios at a 70% rate it's not a guaranteed thing, but comes in handy quite a bit.
Pair Up for Generals since chain attacks can bypass their massive defense stats it's basically a requirement it's also good for your high Avoid characters since chain attacks have a fixed 80% chance to hit so you more or less need this for your thieves even if their running Corrin for +60 Avoid in the fog.
Quick Riposte from Hector is excellent for Generals who are always too slow to double anything, but have excellent stats and are actually good same for Great Knights which people might find a bit easier due to higher move and nearly as high defense.
Keen Insight from Soren for your bow users to help ensure your bow users always kill those pesky fliers, it's relatively cheap and somebody like Fogado who is actually quite good despite his low Str thanks to his high Spd and Mov really appreciates that extra nudge of damage.
Groundswell is useful for certain later stages and is extremely cheap
Quality Time is a pretty cheap passive healing you can put it on a number of characters and save staves, Seadall in particular who is likely using his turn to Dance rather than do anything else can now Dance and heal at the same time if he has Quality Time inherited
Advance is 500 SP and lets you move 1 more space effectively giving you 1-2 range no matter what your weapon type is, excellent for Sword users that don't have another weapon type as their only option (outside of Alear) is Levin Sword and Arts users who don't ever get a 1-2 range art and can appreciate the range to break or kill Mages, Dagger wielders and archers that they potentially wouldn't be able to reach otherwise.
FInally Bow Guard can actually keep your Wyvern Knights from dying to bows and at 1000 for the highest rank it's cheap as well.
Obviously there are better skills if you don't mind paying for them, but the liklihood of getting that much SP through a normal playthrough you've likely sacrificed all your other units and exclusively used one or two units making the game harder on yourself to begin with plus those one or two units would be nigh invulnerable even on Maddening should they have gained that level of SP.
Now if Mentorship stacked, that would be a neat setup to make. Like 2.0x EXP on a staff user with 4 adjacent mentorship allies.
So basically instead of Mentorship you can literally just do 1 skirmish/training and you'll be equal, if not ahead in exp. Great video btw, I always think it's good when someone comes around and actually works out a common myth.
Thanks for mathing all this stuff out and sharing! Very informative video. Definitely changes my opinion on mentorship
I just put it on Seadall to get special dance a couple turns earlier. He wasn't using that sp anyway.
When talking about percentages you have to ask yourself, a percentage of what?
In this case, because the amount of EXP is a step function dependent of the level difference -thus, forcing a normal playthrough to have a certain range of EXP in play, for balancing purposes - there's a point where the net EXP you get is so small that you should give it to another unit that is lagging behind, even though you are still earning EXP 20% faster.
Mentorship Is better used to train units that are really behind the EXP curve or want to hit a certain level before reclassing and ditch the skill once they are close to the goal.
i kept reading 'Level Dilf' on the spreadsheet
Unfortunately Vander doesn't level up enough for that to matter.
Sedal can get the skill quality time+ too! Mine has that and cantor+ right now and is a support machine
Thank you very much!
My gut instinct was that the skill was pretty meh. Maybe a decent option as a filler skill.
And I understood that due to the way exp works, it would ultimately result in some fixed level advantage. Although for some reason I hadn't made the connection that this resulted in SP stagnation in exactly the same manner, but it's obvious once you stop to think about it.
I did not however realize the advantage would essentially a single level.
Although reevaluating it again, this is effectively 150SP for +1 in about 4 semi-random stats in most cases, but it takes several level ups to materialize and re-earn the 100SP.
That's... not great, but actually not terrible. The speed + line runs 100, 300, 500, 1000 and 2000 SP for +1,2,3,4,5. I run 1-3 as some of my most common skills, and occasionally 4 depending on the cost of the other skill.
Level +1 I'd value similarly to speed+2, since speed is one of the more important stats, but level+1 gives more stats. But the speed+ skill is both more reliable, and provides more room for expansion if you need higher than +2, so I'd favor that for units that care about speed.
So while level +1 struck me as extremely underwhelming when you pointed it out, upon reevaluation, I think I'm back to "meh. Maybe a decent filler skill."
Lineage would bea little better, as it costs 150SP, 50 net, and mentorship's boosts given to allies would dwindle quickly. That is of course, DLC though.
I agree that mentorship is not a great skill in terms of inheritance. The one use case I had for it was giving it to a dodge tank, and hiding that unit behind another who I am trying to level up in skirmishes. Doing this, I have been able to keep my really high in level, and even had to second seal some of them to reset their level (Louis being attacked all the time made him power level).
This skill also gets better the lower the difficulty is, since skirmishes are easier to farm then. Either way, the skill still does not compare to the 1.5x Byleth had in 3H. I only used it for level grinding to make some non-viable units work (ie Seadall from a lv 18 dancer > lv 1- 20 swordfighter > lv 15 swordsmaster lol)
thanks for the math alert
Just thinking about sp return alone should make it pretty obvious that its not worth. You need to kill like 100+ enemies to get the 250 sp back since its not a skill youd wanna keep end game
Thank you for making this video
Illuminating! Thanks! (I am one of those dupes who got it on literally everyone until I could get enough SP to inherit something better 😢)
Mentorship is a skill for players who try to use all of the characters instead of having a main team or even two teams. It helps keep your average level between your units equal since it does more for units catching up than those that are ahead. This is especially evident because mentorship triggers not only for the unit that has it, but also adjacent units. Your expected to put mentorship on a party member that you always deploy with and keep them near units you're only deploying every so often.
So you're saying that it's a skill to enable poor/inefficient play? That doesn't sound like a very good skill to me.
@@fieldystick >use 100% of the resources the game gives you
>Inefficient
Try again
Spending 3 seconds on maddening was enough to tell me that going from 7 to 8 EXP was not worth the slot. I'm too busy tryharding by giving canter to everyone.
How does internal level work in the exp formula? You add both the level they promote and the level after they promote? Example: lvl 10 would be internal lvl 10 and promoted 10/1 would be internal lvl 11? Do they gain +1 internal lvl from Master seal only, or do second seals also have negative effects on internal level that they constantly add +1?
By the way, thanks for discrediting Mentorship, I always feel bad leaving exp behind, but if it's just 1 level that you only keep as long as mentorship is equipped, i guess it's not really worth stressing about minmaxing it.
Internal level is the number of levels a unit earned before promotion. If you promoted at 10 and are now level 1, you would be internal level 9, current level 1, for total level 10.
@@OriginalRaisins Oh, so that's how you calculate it, thanks for the clarification.
Nice argument, but you seem to not be accounting for Mentorship also provides bonus exp for allies, so in effect your *entire army* gets to be ahead a level if you're clever. Which does has its own implications, however, namely: inheritance is still a bad idea, just use Byleth's ring and *maybe* inherit it onto Seadall and your whole team should be set.
Yeah I don't mind drawing that conclusion.
Assuming that every time you get combat exp you'll be next to someone holding mentorship just imo introduces too much inflexibility. For one, how many people are getting mentorship anyway? And even then, are you sure there are never going to be combats where one of your units has to break off to fight? Again I question whether this benefit is even worth the skill slot in the first place.
As a Mekkah fan, I didn't know before now that Raisins was so handsome 😳
I assume everything here extends to Lineage as well if you have DLC. Good showcase of why hyper fixating on XP gains in FE doesn't lead anywhere.
Really well explained my guy
*My love
dont be shy bro
@@despicableone4495 :flushed emoji:
this assumes that you are training your units equally. some units need all the help they can get to catch up. not everyone is stacking kills.
It's still true in the case of underleveled units. After some kills, Mentorship exp will have given you an extra level, and then it CANNOT create a level lead larger than +1. I've tested with loads of early and underleveled units just to address this exact case, and the highest exp differential I've ever seen is 160 exp to the mentorship unit. It always equilibrates to a +1 level lead
@@OriginalRaisins thats enough tho. people always complain anna cant level fast enough to catch up. but with the three houses skill she caught up quick. to the point i wanted to rush to the next chapter cuz i needed more master and second seals.
@@mithos789 You would need to be deploying base Anna in like chapter 13 or 14 to see the kind of EXP gain I was talking about when I said that it can power up underleveled units.
@@OriginalRaisins is that true? i used micaiah emblem. and she already gives massive exp. i wonder how it effect mercurius.
When a man breaks out the spreadsheet you know what’s up
Also as informative as this video is, I feel like its missing the point of Mentorship. Its not meant to be efficient for leveling your high internal level units. If you put it on a high level units, it should only be to feed kills to low level units so they benefit more from the enemy level difference. You know, kind of like a mentor would.
I figure the best use case would be giving Alear or some other OP unit the Mercy ring, surround them with Seadall and 2/3 baby units with Lineage and start feeding the baby units kills.
great video with fantastic insight on the game. Despite the level degrade equating to negligable final numbers, I'd still argue that mentorship is good because it will have u hit level and sp thresholds faster which will impact your performance throughout midgame in a meaningful way. it's still a great cost effective skill for Seedal who doesn't need anything besides canter (srry quality time fans i dont like worrying about messing up my wrath proc). He will most likely be apart of all your midgame instruct dances which will net much bigger gains before the degrade hits in lategame.
I do think hitting level thresholds like special dance and world tree is a real application of the skill.
@@OriginalRaisins which is good, but not great. I think it's important to ground expectations with the reality of its benefits which u do well in this video, because yeah- people are def overating it.
Mentorship is pretty crap. It's like congratulations, you reached single digit kill exp slightly faster. I'm finding in the late game of maddening where I'm earning single digits exp for kills i could use every drop of sp i can get because it's become a trickle.
Would inheriting it on Jean or Anna be worth it if the idea is to power level them to get to level 10 as quickly as possible and then taking it off?
It would theoretically be useful in catching them up with the rest of your army so that they could actually be usable in combat sooner. The problem is that you don't get Byleth until mid/late game. By that point either Jean/Anna will be caught up already or so far behind that they are effectively dead anyway. Furthermore, as stated in the video, it'd probably just be better to give them a skill that outright makes them better to catch them up since it will kick in immediately and they'll keep the boost once they do.
Is Mentorship useful if you're playing Classic and mid-to-late game you suddenly need to level up someone who is way behind?
Again, it will only give you *one* extra level some time from now, and no more. You're better off just getting them whatever stats best help them level up now.
@@OriginalRaisins True. It's actually probably better to just put Byleth on the unit you're trying to catch up anyways and using Dance of the Goddess, etc. Then they are still useful even underleveled and they gain the absolutely insane amount of XP from that.
*Mentorship: grants unit and adjacent units EXP as if they were one level lower
is that exp/level table based on maddening mode?
Trash skill gives you -150 sp and 0 stats if unlucky.
I think the edelgard one is worth it cause you can get it so so early. But people gunna flame cause I like the dlc.
Lineage is worth it because its dirt cheap and you can get it early so you can recoup the loss in SP with the xp boost quickly. Mentorship i dont think it too expensive but it appears too late in the game and the fact that you have to literally stand next to the person using mentorship to use it.
The person that inherits mentorship gets it too, so it's always active.
You can get Canter+ on Seadall
yeah that made a lot of sense.
This argument feels a little hand-wavy. Wouldn't it have been better to check cumulative EXP? Starting from a difference in level of 0, if two units kill an equal amount of enemy units with the same level as their starting level, the EXP advantage of the mentorship unit will wax toward 25 kills with a difference of 34 EXP before waning to a difference of 6 after 69 kills -- this is just one example. Multiple factors may affect the usefulness of mentorship, not to mention that it is an aura.
So I was pretty confident that my statement "In order to get 2 levels ahead, you must get 1 level ahead and then earn exp faster" was enough to prove that you can't build up more than a one level lead, but I actually decided to run an experiment to see exactly whether or not my assertion was indeed true. I took two units, each at level 1, and calculated how much experience they would earn from killing enemies. I started with level 9 enemies and then increased the enemy level by 1 every 7 kills. I continued this until they had each killed seven level-40 enemies, which totaled 224 kills each. The unit with mentorship earned a total of 4,032 exp and the unit without mentorship earned 3,920 exp.
You can double-check my math application here
i.imgur.com/9Hwnom4.png
i.imgur.com/oUFUGmL.png
...What if you're playing Ironman and all your good units died and you need to powerlevel the low level bench warmers?
Then the exp formula will give them a bunch of extra exp for being underleveled anyway and your SP will probably be better spent on a skill that makes them better immediately and sticks around after they catch up.
Now make a video on why divine pulse is good
Here’s a question, Mentorship on top of Parthia or Mercurius? Those weapons apply a 2.0x bonus to Exp, does that in turn make mentorship a 40% increase to base?
I don't know, but there are 3 possibilities:
1) Total 240% exp modifier
Multiplying each modifier separately
*2) Total 220%
*Adding the total of the modifiers before multiplying
3) Total 200%
If they don't stack
And then you'd have to redo all the math in this video to find out how worthwhile the combination thereof is.
*EDIT: In another comment it's been stated that Mentorship and Edelgard's Lineage stack additively and not multiplicatively, so that would make it a 220% total.
2 x 1.2 is 2.4, and that's the exp modifier that gets applied to you.
The end result is that the green row of numbers I drew your attention to at 9:35 also doubles. This does mean larger positive numbers for some levels, but also larger negative numbers for other levels, or in some cases, zero. The effect does not change fundamentally.
@@OriginalRaisins Cool, just trying to understand the math in that particular scenario, thanks
The weird thing is that Mentorship applies first, rounds down, then Parthia/Merc/Lineage apply after. So unless the exp is divisible by 5, it's actually not even the promised 2.4x
The exp boost is only useful if you are doing dlc or skirmishes
good ole' math
Come on guys, no one cares about your anecdotes or (perceived) positive experiences with Mentorship. Personal experience means nothing.
* Mentorship is unlocked after clearing chapter 14
* Chapters 15-26 have an average of ~30-35 enemies
What more is there to be said? If you want to powerlevel then cheese/grind instead of believing that you will gain more than an effective 1-level bonus after 20+ levels and 10+ chapters because your units inherited Mentorship.
It doesnt even work in arena so no 12 xp
At least dlc royalty work even in there even tho it doesnt give others any
Does that mean Linage is no different?
Correct
As soon as you said “Level” It immediately clicked for me. Something told me to bypass mentorship in all my runs, probably because Byleth comes to late for that sort of gimmick. Divines Pules is much better as a skill slot. I would supposed Lineage works the same hmm… I guess that makes Mercurius and Parthia better as emblem weapons now.