What even IS a Broadway FLOP?
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- čas přidán 22. 11. 2022
- 80% of Broadway shows fail. Seeing how we've been exploring the untold stories of obscure musicals for three years now, but we've never actually talked about how to properly define a Broadway flop.
Let's change that.
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The fact that Great Comet, an absolute marvel of modern theatre, flopped is proof we're living in the darkest timeline
Or that Great Comet wasn't very good.
@@uanime1 I don't think one can deny that Great Comet was a fantastic piece of theatre, I think it just suffered big time from terrible timing and luck, just like with Bright Star in 2016, received 5 Tony nominations including best musical, book and original score, but in 4 out of 5 categories it was nominated lost out to Hamilton (Carmen Cusack lost out to Cynthia Erivo in Colour Purple). Result: nobody remembers Bright Star because everyone was talking about Hamilton that year instead, and it closed only 2 weeks after the 70th Tony awards. Sometimes a really good show can fail due to other more popular shows at the time outperforming it.
@@TheTradge
"I don't think one can deny that Great Comet was a fantastic piece of theatre"
The fact that it flopped means you can.
"I think it just suffered big time from terrible timing and luck"
It was popular because of the celebrity starring in it but failed after he left.
"just like with Bright Star in 2016, received 5 Tony nominations including best musical, book and original score, but in 4 out of 5 categories it was nominated lost out to Hamilton"
Or Bright Star wasn't that good, which is why it lost.
"Sometimes a really good show can fail due to other more popular shows at the time outperforming it."
That means they weren't a good show. The good shows are the ones that outperformed the lesser shows.
@@uanime1 Its ok not to like something that was good. You seem to have this thought pattern that goes 'I didn't like it, ergo it was bad'.
Also "The fact that it flopped means you can." -- makes me think you didn't understand the video or just want to be contrarian for some "internet points"
@@Minorheadlines
"Its ok not to like something that was good."
You thinking it was good does not make it good.
"'I didn't like it, ergo it was bad'."
It flopped, ergo the audience thought it was bad.
"makes me think you didn't understand the video"
The video states that Great Comet failed on all 4 of its metrics for measuring success. It flopped so badly that no one can create metrics to measure how it was supposed to be a success.
Great Comet makes me cry. If Dear Evan Hanson hadn’t been during the same season and social media hadn’t completely ran with a half scandal it would still be playing. It’s musically brilliant, the staging was beautiful and immersive, the story was fabulous and made you feel for all involved… I just… the fact that Dear Evan Hanson won some awards that REALLY should have gone to Comet… because the songs semi blew up on TikTok I have some hope for a revival in the future.
Dear evan hansen didnt blew up on tiktok until after the 2017 tonys! Most of its success came to it being related to 'the big four' (hamilton, heathers, be more chill and deh) and blowing up on tumblr. It still didnt deserve most of the attention it got though, it's mediocre at best and terrible at worst. At least heathers, hamilton and bmc had some redeeming qualities
@@rinina I meant Comet songs that got big on TikTok not DEH which I don’t care for musically at all. I’ve always thought it was over hyped. “Call to Pierre” got really popular on TikTok during the pandemic and so did “Moscow”. So hopefully Comet will make a return someday.
@@lilysong1321 oh totally! Letters also was popular for a while, i totally misread ur comment lol
Maybe the big comet wasn’t actually that interesting to mainstream audiences….
Dear Evan didn’t reach its commercial popularity until after the tony
Great Comet is a runaway hit in Berkeley, CA right now. I am in the band. We just extended to Feb 5. Check out Shotgun Players.
I can't seem to watch a single video about Broadway in the last 5 years that doesn't somehow give me a reason to be annoyed at Dear Evan Hansen.
"...Great Comet won no awards, which were swept by critical darling Dear Evan Hansen..."
*shakes fist at the unfeeling sky*
"DEAR EVAN HAAANSEEENNN!"
Villian origin story
ME
Yes! It is wild to me that season had the Falsettos revival, Come From Away AND Great Comet and DEH was the show that won all the prizes. I experienced proper Schadenfreude when the film went over as bad as it did.
Dear Evan Hansen
The critics are way too out of touch
Great Comet deserved your awards
And it sucks that it lost so much
I gotta tell you, that just isn't right
Come on back behind my shed, I've got you a surprise
@@emmamarshall221 To be fair, Dear Evan Hansen's is a terrific piece of theater (the original Bway/off-Bway cast was flawless). Aside from having a completely original plot (not based on a movie, book, or even another play) and completely original music & lyrics, I think it deserved eveything it got at the Tonys that year. I've only seen it once in its final form (saw it first off-Bway, then on Bway with the same cast & a few plot changes) but Ben Platt & Rachel Bay Jones blew me away.
That year, by Tony season I'd seen all the nominated new musicals, new plays, & revivals (musicals & plays), which was only 7 musicals & 8 plays. It was a weak year for musicals: the only new musicals nominated were Dear Evan Hansen, Come from Away, Groundhog Day, & The Great Comet. The only nominated revivals were Hello Dolly, Falsettos & Miss Saigon.
I love Falsettos, but the revival didn't bring much that was new (compared with the original production in 1992, which was back when a musical about gay life, not to mention a musical about Aids, was a risky venture for producers to consider).
Dolly, otoh, felt fresh with Bette Midler & Beanie as - respectively - leading lady & featured actress, and Miss Saigon, while fun, wasn't thrilling: I felt that it was a bit soon for a revival, just as the Les Mis revival came a bit early, since the original productions didn't feel like it had closed so long ago.
As for the other Best Musical nominees, I've typed too much already, but from what I could see, based on audience reaction alone, Tony voters got it right. The other nominated shows were great, and any of them might have won in another year, but nothing but Evan Hansen was ever going to win the 2017 Best Musical Tony.
There were 8 additional original musicals that were completely ignored by the Tonys (including "War Paint," which starred Patti Lupone as Helena Rubenstein & Christine Ebersole as Elizabeth Arden), so it was truly an honor just to be nominated.
What annoys me about Great Comet flopping is that a lot of people thought Oak was the original actor of Pierre and thought he was replaced by a famous white actor (some CZcamsrs still push this lie to this day). They also claims Denee Benton and Amber Gray were being "submissive to the obvious racism" and even decided to attack other actors either understudies or the performers in the band who are POC for not boycotting the show as if them not responding to made-up drama was being "compliant"
Wait, why?
@@katherinealvarez9216 because they come up with bullshit and will find excuses to act out of line.
@@BeyondBaito that's sad
Also to clarify: Oak was not spreading these rumors, he is a very nice man who also happens to have a lot of moronic stans.
@Mattbrain wait, "difficult to work with" as in, he was being a diva? All I heard was that he requested an extra week to prepare...
God, even just the thumbnail to this one hurt my heart. I would absolutely love to see you do a deep dive on Great Comet, (or even Dave Malloy's works in general.) _Natasha, Pierre, and the Great Comet of 1812_ is right there with _Hadestown_ as one of my two favourite modern musicals that really may just be all-time favourites at this point.
An absolutely stunning work that deserved so much better. I'd give anything to be able to see it get a revival one day-and if it does, I'll do my best to be one of the first in line to see it.
He said in a live stream once that he works on a great comet documentary and that it's currently 2 hours long
@ComicallyMacabre Interesting that "Great Comet" is among your very favorites. I see pretty much everything in NYC (at least on & off Bway): enjoyed the performances in "Great Comet" - especially the version that arrived on Broadway (I also saw it at ART, though not @ Ars Nova or off-Bway) - ...for me it's not a show that brought out deeper emotions. What makes it one of your top 2?
Those are my two favorite musicals too!!
I wish I'd heard of the vr stream in time to get tickets, but there's always the great shooting star
@@QuikVidGuy What's the vr stream?
I feel like "flops" wouldn't hurt so badly when it comes to Broadway/American Musical theater if they got to live a 2nd life off broadway through a cast recording or a pro-shot to be enjoyed by the people who never got a chance to hear it or watched by a new generation or demographic who could've better understood it. It's one thing for a show to just not make it and close, but then it's a whole other thing for it to just basically vanish from the face of the earth and you can't even hear or see footage of it, it really saddens me that they can just vanish sometimes.
Btw, WITW videos are the PERFECT Thanksgiving content.
I'm glad Dave Malloy has managed to succeed off-broadway, his work is just build for a smaller and more intimate, experimental experience. Preludes, Ghost Quartet, and ESPECIALLY Octet have done wonderfully to great reviews! He knows he doesn't need Broadway to succeed.
I loved ghost quartet
Broadway doesn't deserve a genius like Dave Malloy.
Addams Family is interesting to me. That it was a disaster on Broadway. But that it has such a devoted base within regional theatres and it's insanely popular, despite being a flop.
It was my junior year show. I absolutely loved the script. The music is very homey to me. It was honestly the best show I've been in. A lot of people I know also did it in high school. They say the same thing.
Legally Blonde, Seussical, and Little Mermaid were all ones we did at my local theatre. They are very nostalgic to me
I saw it in Chicago before its Broadway run and it definitely had a second act problem. I think they just needed more time to retool and didn't have it.
@Nerd of Theatre I can't sit through this whole video, but I don't need to because I know what a flop is.
I don't need this guy to tell me that there are 2 kinds of flops: commercial & critical... a show can be a critical hit but a commercial flop that scares theatregoers & never really finds its audience, like the amazing "A Strange Loop,"; a critical flop but a commercial hit, that gets horrible reviews but general audiences love it, like "Wicked," which is running forever despite having been savaged by critics when it opened - critics loved individual performances & praised a few songs but hated the show as a whole - ... which didn't stop audiences from flocking to pay full-price to see it... or - a show can be a critical AND commercial flop, like too many shows I've seen to name).
"Addams Family" was a critical flop but a huge commercial hit: it ran for more than 500 essentially sold-out performances with no real discounts & quickly earned back its initial capitalization of $15m by more than 6x... and a critical flop: awful reviews & won zero Tonys; its financial success depended on the its well-known original stars, several of whom were Tony winners for their earlier Bway work. Producers closed the show & sent it on tour rather than trying to keep it on Bway with new actors replacing Nathan Lane and Bebe Neuwirth
I played in the pit of that show my junior year! I’ve always had a soft spot for it since.
When my high school did a production of Addams Family, I was skeptical since I'd never heard of the musical and new it had flopped on Broadway. I went to see it anyway and I loved it! It's a such a quirky musical, which is exactly as an Addams Family musical should be. It was SO fun to watch.
They completely retooled it for Europe. I saw the Dutch version, it was good
Flops on Broadway aren't always flops in the UK which I always find so interesting. Amelie was a really big success in its West End run and Doubtfire in Manchester seemed to be reviewed much more favourably than on Broadway
The UK doesn't normally have great musical tastes lol
And Rent, despite several attempts down the years, never took off on the UK's West End as it did on Broadway. Something about it just didn't appeal to the UK Musical audience
@@Awardshq UK is smaller and to keep a show going it has to appeal to the more conservative province types who buy West End Weekend Away trips(a hotel, bus and show ticket). My aunt used to call them 'the Clarnico mint cream brigade' after a chocolate they'd buy to eat in the theatre.
To be fair... musicals are re-worked before they move to the UK. Sometimes the producers learn from their mistakes during the Broadway run, and fix those things when they move to the UK. There are plenty of West End musicals that don't make it in the US. There's a certain amount of cultural difference involved, but for the most part the re-working is what will determine a musical's success after transfer.
@Awardshq taste is subjective. Different from yours doesn't mean bad. Audiences from different countries simply have different preferences.
Howard Ho and Mickey Jo? And the reminder of the pain that I never got to see Comet? And the joy that was all of Margaret Hall's knowledge and grounded points? Love all of this!
Also I got to see a touring of The Addams Family and it was such a joy, so thanks for highlighting that flops doesn't equal awful.
Howard Ho showing up for an in-person, on-the-street interview was not the way I expected the crossover to happen, but I’m not complaining 😂😂
Amelie the musical is another great example which I think will only get more popular. I remember watching the *cough* tutorial *cough* and thinking how much potential the musical had but that it didn’t capture the magic of the film. The music - in particular - was great but the orchestrations were too… broadway. The changes made by the British team was EVERYTHINNG. The tour and then the west end run were amazing. I saw it 4 times. I was SO happy that it worked here in a way it didn’t on broadway.
I could literally write a whole essay about it haha
Finally. Another London Amelie fan. I absolutely love Amelie with all of my heart. It is so underrated and the charm and wonder it has is amazing. I wish there were recordings of the London run of the musical, or it at least gets a revival someday.
If you just saw the US version, not knowing either the film or the UK version, you’d struggle to realise that it was French. Saw the UK version live before ‘coming across’ the US one and couldn’t believe how bad the US one was in comparison. Hopefully the UK version will be done in North America at some point.
Amélie was one of my favourite movies growing up. It had this charm and beauty that the US musical just could not capture. I just happened to be visiting the UK the same time the re-tooled Amélie was touring and went to go see it. It remains to this day my favourite musical of all time. It brought back the charm and beauty that reminded me of the film, but it wasn't a carbon copy. Rather than this huge spectacle, rhe UK version felt almost intimate.the story, the songs, and characters were infused with a depth and emotion that was so powerful that I cried in the front row of The Watermill Theatre.
Huge thanks to everyone who helped contribute and the WitW Patreon for really helping make this piece thrive!
Do you think ALW bad Cinderella will flop ?
This is an interesting video 😎.
“Was Bono involved?” Got me real good 😂😂😂😂
Oh my god, the segment on Great Comet broke my heart. I had a chance to see it in its early run in Cambridge (not Boston. Trust me.) because the leader of our highschool theatre program (not the MAIN highschool theatre program. The tiny student lead version for people who felt excluded by the regular one- long story) had an internship at the theatre and got us tickets.
ON STAGE tickets- this was when they had that incredible set design with audience seating incorporated. It also included being served… pierogis, I think? Or something like them. And during the number about letters the cast members handed several of us notes- I got one about how they liked my hair. (it was blue. i was in a highschool theatre program for people alienated from their highschool theatre program- of course it was blue.)
I’ll try not to gush too much, but it was like an out of body experience. I think by the end I was visibly in shaking.
Yet, for all that I love that musical, it’s not my favorite flop.
It’s not even a broadway flop.
It’s, please GOD hear me out, the Kenneth Branagh’s Love’s Labor’s Lost movie from 2000.
PLEASE. IT HAS NATHAN LANE IN IT. AND A CONFUSING BURLESQUE NUMBER? AND THE ENDING STILL MAKES ME TEAR UP AND IM PRETTY SURE ITS WHY IM BISEXUAL NOW.
Please. I know it doesn’t count. But please god tell me someone else has seen this thing. Matthew Lillard and Alicia Silverstone are in it? There’s iambic pentameter tap dancing and a synchronized swimming number and I NEED to know this dvd didn’t just show up at my house one day, manifested by my own Shakespeare obsession and closeted queer vibes.
Anyways. My personal definition of a flop is that it makes me feel something and the original creators really wish that I’d stop bringing up how it makes me feel something so they can forget it ever happened.
Great Comet- Beloved. Broadway flop.
Love’s Labor’s Lost- I am the only one who remembers this, except probably Kenneth Branagh, who probably wishes I didn’t. Unbroadway flop.
Oh I remember Love's Labor's Lost! The YT channel Brows Held High did a video on it for his "Summer of Shakespeare" series. It's such a goofy movie, but it's a guilty pleasure! Sadly it often gets overlooked by musical fans for being a "Jukebox Musical", which is part of why I love it so much!
@@cannibalisticrequiem OH I’m absolutely going to go watch that now! I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who remembered it- it’s totally a guilty pleasure movie, you’re right. And YES, jukebox musicals need more respect. I mean, this one was a box office disaster, but one I love dearly, so… that’s something haha
@Jet Dude, if you want to say where you first saw "Great Comet," just say you saw it @ ART... a Cambridge/Boston distinction is irrelevant to the discussion.
(I first saw it @ ART , too... I live in NYC but my best friend from when I was a 14 year old @ theater camp was getting an acting MFA then @ ART & we saw it while I was visiting him... I thought it was a ton of fun, so I saw it - again - with the OBC on Bway when it transferred).
The Great Comet is a commercial flop, but it's not a critical flop. Like most shows, it failed to recoup its capital investment, but unlike most shows it got rave reviews and all the major critics included it on their best musicals of the year lists (2016).
Re: Branaugh's LLL, it's ridiculous and I get a *huge* kick out of that, too.
I would love for you to do a deep-dive on Jekyll&Hyde - my favourite flop
Yes! It's crazy how it ran on Broadway for so many years without making any money. I love the score so much, but I think it was cursed by poor directing choices.
It had a phenomenal national tour before it hit Broadway, and had numerous incredible interpretations worldwide (especially Germany and Korea). Yet every time it comes to Broadway it becomes a disaster.
Fun fact: My roommate from acting school (AADA) was in the original Broadway cast of Jekyll & Hyde.
Yes, that was actually a good musical. It deserved better.
I think a video on Frank Wildhorn's musicals in general would be fascinating. Many of his shows do poorly on Broadway but are better received outside of the U.S.
Great Comet is my favorite show of all time. I get why it is a hard sell, but good grief that show (and that cast and crew) deserved a long a fruitful run.
It's my favorite too EEE
Blame the producers. If they wanted a black male lead pick a hunk. Josh is a matinee idol. Pick a Denzel type and $$$. They picked a talented singer but no hunk. Mandy is no hunk but has a loyal following. Stupidity cost them. The show was odd and needed a gorgeous guy. Throw Ricky Martin in and an Evita who is no Lupone sells. It's a business
I would love if you could do a deep dive into some European non-English-language musicals. Some shows are huge successes here and run for years and have frequent re-runs (like Dance of the Vampires, Elisabeth, Romeo et Juliette...) but are often neglected by the English-speaking musical experts. In any case - I'd love to see some appreciations for original musicals around the world!
Yes!! I second this! I've always wondered what Brenden's reaction to Japanese musicals on popular anime, and musicals put on by all-women theatre groups (the name escapes me right now) would be!
Oooh, add Soldaat van oranje to that list! :D
@@cannibalisticrequiem Takarazuka is the all-female performing troupe in Japan. :)
This, so much!
Dance of the Vampires is discussed in his recent Spooky Musicals video, and it would be cool to see more coverage of that kind of musical!
The Addams Family was probably my favorite community theater experience. I loved the soundtrack. So when my community theater was doing it, I jumped to get tickets. It wasn't until the curtain went up that I realized this was a youth production. I was here for it though but I was so worried about how prepubescent-child-Fester was going to handle the big low note in One Normal Night. When the moment came, instead of going low - he went high. And it was glorious. One of my best live theater moments.
Was very glad to see a mention of one of my favorite flops- Legally Blonde.That cast recording got me through law school!
In what way did it get you through law school?
@@sparklemotion101ni3 It was just a really fun cast recording to listen to when I needed to destress… which was rather a lot over that three year period.
@@catherineelmore2004 I found law school so much less stressful than what came before (work) and afterwards (much more work) that it's hard for me to remember those three years when I was back in school as anything but a pretty relaxing break. I found "Legally Blonde" mediocre as musicals go, but I did enjoy the "Search for Elle Woods" reality series where - with mixed success - they cast someone to replace Laura Bell Bundy for the few months before the audience dried up completely.
It's always a tough sell when a show's success is so closely associated with the actor who originated its lead role; in the case of "Legally Blonde: the Musical" producers would have been better off re-casting a well known stage performer instead of trying to convince audiences to pay full price to see Bailey Hanks as Elle Woods on Broadway (it's no surprise that Hanks's professional stage career ended when "Legally Blonde" closed on Broadway; though the casting team seemed to enjoy working with Bailey Hanks, I can only assume she was more impressive in person than on screen, since to me she seemed like a total lightweight &, unlike "Elle," Bailey didn't appear to be someone who, once you got to know her, has hidden depths... sometimes what you see is what you get, and in Bailey's case what we got wasn't much).
I only learned about it via a pandemic bootleg binge, and would not have thought it was a flop. It's such a fun, heartfelt story, and the music is really catchy.
@@annalisasteinnes It *really* is! "So Much Better" and "There! Right There!" Always get stuck in my head when I listen to them! Also... Much as I love the movie, I like the Broadway explanation of the bunny costume better than the movie's- saying she dressed up as Gloria Steinem from the I was a Play Boy Bunny essay rather than the movie insult is just... Less catty? I guess? So as a grown up I liked it better. Like the catty was funny too- but just a matter of preference.
I fucking love Great Comet. It’s a brilliant musical. Absolutely brilliant. But I still think it wouldn’t have been a big hit. Because it’s just so weird.
But my god I love every single version of the album I could get. And want a national tour so badly so I can see it in person.
I just saw a regional production in Atlanta and I’m so in love with it.
It is like a gut punch to see / remember Great Comet as a flop... truly breaks my heart! One of my favourite musical experiences and was so devastated by the closing notice that I managed to rearrange my life to get to New York to see it for its penultimate performance. I'll never forgive the 2017 Tony's! Great video as always, so nice to see your guests as well!
The season of Great Comet was a tough one--lots of shows waited to open on Broadway, likely to avoid going up against Hamilton (which opened the year before), so that season had Dear Evan Hansen, Natasha, Pierre & The Great Comet of 1812, Groundhog Day, Come from Away, Bandstand, and others. An extremely strong season, and many could have won awards and possibly made back their investment had they opened in a weaker season.
Yeah, and for example, Come From Away significantly outperformed Dear Evan Hansen in other English speaking countries (with Dear Evan Hanson also being reexamined in the US especially after the film adaptation), showing that success on Broadway also depends a lot more on being in the right place at the right time than many people think.
it's also fun to look at musicals like Be More Chill becoming popular to an audience that could not afford to physically see it once it reached a certain stage. it wasn't bad in that it was unliked, but that they for some reason didn't consider that there was an uptick in bootleg drama around this time for a reason lol
I've been wanting a WitW and Mickey-Jo collab for SO LONG
I SCREAMED when I saw him come up!!
Howard Ho & Mickey Jo with WitW is the Avengers Endgame of stagey CZcams! WOW!
WitW: No Way Home
In England, it is a day train/car trip to London. In America, its an expensive plan ticket to New York (on top of the expensive ticket for the show itself). This limits the people who can enjoy the show, the market is smaller
And even more dominated by incredibly rich people
Depends on where in America you live. That is true if you reside in the *West,* *Midwest,* *Southwest,* or *Southeast.* However, the *Northeast* (New York, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland) is roughly the same size as the *United Kingdom* (England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland) with similar populations (64 million and 67 million, respectively) so you don't need to take a plane to get to NYC from any of the aforementioned U.S. states.
True
I can't believe you included the clip of the flop summer workshop Legally Blonde production, I'm SCREAMING.
The Great Comet was done dirty by social media, and that infuriates me, because it’s easily one of the most original concepts for a musical in a while (outside of Hadestown). Like, Hamilton is fine. Come From Away was ambitious and stuck the landing. DEH is…well it exists. The Great Comet tho is BRILLIANT.
A largely overlooked change in the business model of Broadway musicals since about 1980 the different target audience. Broadway started as the theater scene in New York City, and the primary audience was New Yorkers. The success of the imported mega-musicals was driven by a change in the core audience from New Yorkers to tourists. No Broadway musical could run for more than a few years when the audience was primarily New Yorkers, whereas they can run basically forever when the audience is primarily tourists. Of the 14 Broadway shows that have run for more than 4000 performances, none opened before 1975 and only 2 opened before 1980.
Awesome video! After watching the video from beginning to end, I think that most musicals considered "flops" could be regarded as "cult classics," just like in the world of film. Case in point: "The Rocky Horror Show" written by Richard O'Brien in 1972, was considered a "flop" of biblical proportions, but when Richard, along with music producer Lou Adler, put the musical on the screen, retitled it "The Rocky Horror Picture Show," the film and the stage play found a big audience. And it has become a gem that is shown every Saturday and is now considered "interactive theater" where fans come dressed as their favorite characters and talk to the screen when the film is shown on screen. And the film is shown every Halloween.
The second you brought up Great Comet I was already crying. I hope you do a full video on it one day
Real question here ... if 80% of broadway musicals don't recoup their investment, why does ANYONE invest in them at all? Are there really that many millionaires out there willing to fork over a huge pile of money just because they love theater?
Sure, the chances of a hit show are low, but I'd imagine not much worse than any other business venture, like opening a restaurant or something. And my understanding is that many investors usually contribute so that each person's stake is less and it's an easier risk to sell
They all want the change at having a Hamilton or a lion king that make them money and have their name on it. They have money to burn on it and are willing to gamble
The moment I saw the preview I started crying..The Great Comet deserved so much more 😢
If every show ran like Cats or Phantom with seemingly never ending multi decade runs there would be no new Broadway shows the theaters would all be too full so flops make up theaters major aspect of being ever changing
Ah yes...I remember the Great Comet disaster of 2017...It was quite the bizarre time on Broadway tumblr. I remember how EVERYONE jumped on the anti-DEH train when they swept the awards, ranting for DAYS, WEEKS, about how GC was robbed or how the voters were racist, or how the Tony's didn't know a good thing when they saw it...and I remember just how much of a FIT people threw when it was announced Mandy Patinkin would be coming on which ultimately led to it closing since the fanbase was already on a racial rampage from the Tony's and this just added fuel to the fire. I was never that into GC, I didn't find the music or story that appealing, but what this show went through was honestly a greek tragedy
I love the story of “War & Peace”, and cannot understand why the composer would chose that segment of the novel as the musical’s focal point. The main characters of the novel are Pierre, Natasha, and Andre…. not Anatole. Anatole only exists as a means to explain how and why Pierre and Natasha end up together, in the epilogue. Plus, the story is a love letter to Russia and its culture. Yet, non of the music I heard from “The Great Comet” ever seemed to pay homage to Russian folk music. That could have easily played a role, as to why the score and book failed to win, at the Tonys.
As a Brit, I’m always pleased to see shows that originated in New York start to find their feet over here, whether due to the production values, story, score, etc. My go-to example is Parade - Closed after three months on Broadway in 1998, sold out its Donmar revamp in 2007 and the new City Centre’s production received raves!
Just goes to show that despite what people may say, nobody quite knows what does or doesn’t make a show work.
Mickey Jo Theatre and Wait in the Wings crossover?! YAS!!!
Also, I will never not be pissed about Natasha, Pierre, and the Great Comet of 1812. It’s literally one of the only musicals I have the entire album of and listen to frequently. It’s seriously one of my top 4 favorite musicals.
Flops tend to have longevity if the music is good (but bad plot, characterization, etc) and/or if it was written by a popular composer. I have a whole library of operatic flops, some over 200 years old that found love via recording's in the 20th or 21st century by people who simply love the genre and appreciate the gems that fall between the cracks.
Do you have an example of an operatic flop, which became a globally staged hit nowadays? I don't know much about opera, so it's an interesting topic.
@@broadway-minded6527 the only one I know about is Carmen.
The Great Comet scandal will always be a point of furious anger for me. Excellent video essay, you earned a subscriber today! :)
You, Brendon, and Mickey Joe are by far the best at writing and producing informative, interesting, and entertaining theatre-related content. The two of you should team up for a full video project. Your voices blend well.
I've been watching a lot of Starkid Productions lately. They're definitely a lot more fun that some Broadway shows. You should do a retrospective on them
I believe Comet will make a return to Broadway in the future. When he said that Comet was one of the most innovative musicals to hit Broadway, he is 100% correct. I think maybe it’ll end up getting the Chicago treatment where while the show was good when it first came out, the revival gave it the chance to become a Broadway classic. I really hope to see Comet (and American Psycho) get their 2nd chance!
“The Great Comet” will need to be severely reimagined, if it were to get a revival. Its staging and lack of a proper orchestra was a huge turnoff to the average theatergoer. Actors should not be forced to play instruments, nor should they be interacting with the audience. An immersive experience can still be contained on a proper stage. Plus, the amount of seats removed from the theater guaranteed the musical would never be financially viable. The only reason it did not flop even harder, was due to Josh Groban playing the lead. The only reason “The Great Comet” was mentioned again, by mainstream theater reviews, is due to Josh Groban currently starring in “Sweeney Todd”. It is time theater kids accept the hard truth of the matter.
Loved American Psycho
When will Great Comet get it's second life in regional theater? I never got to see it in NYC, so I really need it to get picked up by some more local groups.
I have absolutely no context of the book or songs for Amelié, but here's what I can gather from the few clips you've shown.
Broadway: Vibrant, 'kooky' and technicolor. All pastries and pastel colours. Plays into what Americans think of when they think Paris, through the great An American in Paris... and the not-so-great Emily in Paris...
West End: Dark, gritty, not perfect but quite beautiful in the casting and the staging. Closer to Monmartre's real reputation as the bohemian arts district, especially as the instruments are played by the cast. Something that Brits are more likely to be exposed to through media AND being able to actually visit the city at much less expense. Still a fantasy, but a fantasy based on something a lot more tangible.
The casting of Audrey Brisson was absolutely key. Fully deserved her Olivier award nomination. She’s from Quebec, so I suppose could do it in North America.
My friends saw the early previews/audience tests of Tim Minchin's Groundhog Day at Oxford and said it was absolutely amazing, and yet it did not get off the ground at that time. Sometimes it is just about right time, right place.
It was INCREDIBLE in London. Had only glowing reviews and so much love from the audience
I need a full video collab with MickeyJo!!!
Signing on for this!
Funnily enough the two musical theater people I watch the most videos of 😀
In the montage of ‘flops’ seeing two of my favorite musicals (Amelie and Great Comet) hurt more than I can explain.
That was an awesome collection of some of my favourite musical theatre CZcams people. You’re gonna spoil us if you keep this up 😆
Bringing in Mickey Jo when you start talking about the West End to Broadway pipeline was brilliant!
This was WAY deeper and more inspiring and thoughtful than I was expecting when I clicked on this video, you're producing some INSANELY high quality work and this video spoke to me. This is your gift, please please keep going
I am loving all the videos that you put out! Great job on all of the musical content!
Love this video! You did a great job analyzing things and bringing more nuance into what it means to be a flop. Also on a personal note thank you for adding that clip of the Korean cast performing from Great Comet😭 It wasn't until I moved to Korea that I truly became a musical fanatic and I was lucky to be able to see Great Comet (and many, many other shows) there. The musical theatre scene in Seoul is so amazing and I wish it got more recognition internationally!
This video is one of your best, ever. Have been following and watching you for years. This is thoughtful, well-researched, and exudes so much heart.
I read that Jonathan Larson, creator of RENT, considered Broadway theatres no different from other theatres. He loved going to Broadway shows but he didn't necessarily prefer them over plays/musicals performed in other theatres. After Larson passed away, RENT was given the opportunity to go on Broadway (after being on Off-Broadway). However, Larson's people weren't initially sure it was something he would have been into. This is all just me saying it doesn't have to be seen as a tragedy when a show has a short (or miniscule) run on Broadway.
AWESOME video!!! Loved seeing all the cameos from musical theatre CZcamsrs and critics!
So a musical flop is basically the musical in its first draft and needs time to get itself together if allowed.
That's pretty cool. I wonder if I can see The Great Comet.
I'm pretty sure they are or were doing a production in San Francisco. Also, they went international a couple of times to Brazil and South Korea
I'd like to know about the economic incentives of producing a Broadway show if 80% of them don't recoup their initial investment on Broadway.
“In theater, you can’t make a living but you can make a killing”. If you invest in the right show, then you’re set for life. If it flops, at least you still get free tickets, invitations to the red carpet, opening parties, etc.
The riskier the investment the higher the reward when it succeeds. This is true for almost every form of investment - if you can lose everything then the reward can be extremely high, if you go for safety you'll make peanuts in interest. Theatre investors are very risk-friendly investors.
I'm loving you embracing your Swiftieness! This was an incredible episode! I loved the inclusion of Howard, Margaret and Mickey Jo. Brava!
Omigod HEY! I have been dying for you and Mickey Jo to collab for months!
I would also be interested in a more extensive episode with Margaret talking about Vampire Muscials!
It's been 5 years but the great comet flop is still a very sensitive topic for me, I will never forgive broadway for it
Some people are so woke they don't get it. The show did well because it had a matinee idol as the lead. Secondly the audience is older. They are not really excited about inter racial love stories. Some like it hot got great reviews but the Marilyn role was played by a black woman with average looks.The Tony Curtis role was played by a BWY favorite. People decided I know the story and keep your politics to yourself. I'll spend my money on Neil Diamond next door. In all there were a dozen shows with mixed race romances and come April they will all be gone. People don't want to pay big money and have someone try to preach politics. Music Man had gorgeous Hugh Jackman romancing Sutton Foster big money
I blame Dear Evan Hansen for a lot...
I was just in a production of Sondheim on Sondheim, and there’s a funny lyric in “God” that says: “You know what I like best? His flops.” Clever, but especially so if you know that all of his shows were flops to some degree. Merrily is one of my top five favorite shows of all time. Thanks for making this! Always love your content!
The crossover I never knew I needed! I love both of your channels, it’s such a wonderful surprise to see Mickey Jo!
Great video! Really thoughtful discussion. I appreciate your researched approach to the business side of the theater industry! Keep up the awesome work :)
i’m a lot more forgiving when it comes to broadway flops nowadays than i once was, because my favourite musical (and yes, i mean my favourite of all time) is american psycho. and we all know how well that did on broadway…
I’ll always mourn what could have been for Great Comet 😭 I love the show so much, it’s my favourite. But it is what it is ❤️
This was fun for me to watch. I was an Off-Broadway technician for most of the 90s and I counted 9 friends in the clips you featured. Yes, techs and actors can be friends. Also a great take on flops. I've done a few myself. I will say the NYT review is weird. I did a show where on press night the NYT critic fell asleep half way through act one, slept through intermission, woke up for the last 15 minutes. It was a musical. But we got a great review.
I was just vibing along with the vid then MickeyJo appeared! AHHH I never knew I need this collab so much
Your videos are always so insightful & eye-opening! Thank you!
Love this video essay! You showed a brief clip of Bright Star... could you do a video about the good musicals that got cursed by premiering in the same year as Hamilton?
Hey hey! I've been following MickeyJo for a few years now and you as well! So it's great to see you both connect.
very unexpected but still very fun to see several other youtubers that I've actually watched featured in this video
More videos with Mickey Jo please!!!!! And maybe each take a field trip across the pond to see shows together?
This is the one window I allow myself into theatre. If I got any closer into it I'd just get sad at all the stuff I miss living out here in maine and the march of time working upon an impermanent medium.
Remember what they said: Broadway isn't theatre.
There's amazing local stuff going on near you, if you look, I promise. Not just on the amateur level either; those national shows have to tour somewhere right?
Don't be sad, go find a door. ;-)
I’m so sad that I never saw Amelié’s limited West End run. I wanted to see it so bad but it was only open for 4 months in the heart of the pandemic.
9:49 OMG, Gelsey Bell (on the right)! I knew her when she was a composer/performer of experimental song cycles and I even interviewed her for my music blog The Glass! So happy she got to do this show despite its initial fate. I would love to see it come back somehow. I hope Gelsey bounces back too!
Oh my god, hey Mickey Jo!
If you think you hate your worst enemy, just remember you will never hate anyone as much as Brendan hates Bono 😂
I know right! That burned more than Anakin's trip to Mustafar!
Omg it's Mickey Jo theater! What a fun collab! Thanks for an awesome video.
There's a great book, "From Kelly to Carrie: 40 Years of the Broadway Flop", that, as the title suggests, catalogs some of the greatest in history--You wouldn't ask if you got a summary of "Into the Light", "Via Galactica" or "The Best Little Whorehouse Goes Public".
I grew up wondering what a "Broadway flop" looked like (c'mon, how bad could "Bring Back Birdie" have been?), until I heard the "Teddy & Alice" album on the radio, and saw "Seussical" and "Phantom II: Love Never Dies" on video. Umm, er, yeah....Next question.
MJT! This is the MT collab we needed! Funny what you say about broadway being a place, so is the West End, it's held as a pinnacle of MT in the UK, but there is plenty of theatre in other places too.
I've been binging your whole catalog of videos the last few days. Such interesting and informative commentaries and very well made!! Was wondering if you knew anything about the musical Big Fish or if you thought it'd be a good show to cover on the channel? I didn't see that you had covered it and was wondering about the story of the musical
Flop is a business term for theater owners, investors, media and critics. As a fan of Broadway I consider it art. Art cannot be a flop…it just may have a smaller audience than others.
Mickey Jo! You guys are my 2 favorite Broadway video creators on CZcams!
*looks at comments while adds play*
*everyone is talking about great comet*
Me: *sobs*
Amazing, well thought-out video. My favorite musical is Groundhog Day - which was the flop of all flops, but now is seeing a revival in the UK. Oh, how I wish I could see it!
As someone who's always subscribed to Ken Mandelbaum's Flop Rules, your Rules are very interesting. I'd change "Got a bad review from the NYTimes" to "Got negative reviews in general" (or even "middling" reviews, perhaps), since we should acknowledge the critical consensus (and also, because the Times doesn't need any more power on its shoulders) - but I'll now be going through various Broadway musicals throughout history, and seeing how they measure up to your rules :)
Really enjoyed this documentary (I think you were recommended by the algorithm because I follow Mickey Jo Theatre). Thank you for the thought that went into the selection of clips (I saw what you did there right at the end with the word "greed"), sound editing and research. That's a LOT of work; well done. Will check out your Patreon. (Side note: You featured a clip 3-4 times of a shirtless guy with red headphones; 31:10, for example. What musical is that? Now I'm curious!)
loved loved LOVED this episode - especially the breakdown of the adams family bway run ( which i saw several times in previews and once opened and was changing parts each time i went !!!!
this was also the same of one of my fave flops " wonderland "! (another that got a popular run over in the uk !
i encourage everyone to read the not since carrie book as it was a staple in my reading list for drama school and there was a reason ... it really was well written and perfect for any Mt geek like myself !!
keep up the amazing work and i look forward to more episodes and the next bway season ( hopefully with no flops haha )
This was the Avengers endgame of musical theater youtuber crossovers and I LOVE IT
Its will be a best way to bring the new musical to Broadway Con and share a behind the scenes and sneak peek.
Thanks for this video!!! What a great perspective ! ❤
Definitely among your best. Happy Thanksgiving Run Crew!
I’VE BEEN WAITING FOR A MICKEY JO WIW COLAB!!! AHHH
I’ve had the privilege of working on numerous pre-Broadway productions, and I always am so curious to see the reception of the shows once they land in NYC. While Amelie may not have been my favorite interpretation of that story, a lot of hard work went into it so I’m sad at how quickly it gets forgotten [at least the US production]. I was so glad to see it highlighted here! 😊
Please make a deep dive on the Great Comet you have no idea how much I need it-
I LOVED this-great job!
my greatest dream is to be part of an eventual german production of great comet. we have a pretty robust state funded theatre system and also plenty smaller venues. i just know that it could be something magical
Fascinating, though I would take issue with the thesis that flops like The Addams Family or Seussical are somehow redeemed or national treasures. They are recognizable titles, NOT good shows. Regional theatre companies perform them in hopes of attracting non-theatre audiences. That doesn't make them any better. And unfortunately, it's the value of existing intellectual property that will keep them more often performed than, say, a non-flop like Hadestown or Come From Away. This is especially true of movie-to-stage adaptations or Disney properties.