Sumerian and Finno-Ugric Regular Sound Changes
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- čas přidán 28. 01. 2020
- This presentation describes data mining algorithms for discovering regular sound change rules among languages. The algorithms are applied to Sumerian and Finno-Ugric languages.
References
P. Z. Revesz, Sumerian-Ugric protowords and regular sound changes, Appendix to: S. Parpola, Etymological Dictionary of the Sumerian Language, vol. 3, Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns, pp. 390-415, 2022. www.eisenbrauns.org/books/tit...
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This is very impressive talk.
Interesting! Thank you so much. I am Finnish and eager to learn more about the history of Finno-Ugric languages. We share a fine history together.
Kiitos :)
@@PeterRevesz Voi kiitos myös teille! Ihanaa kevättä!
I looked at the telescope and went 1million light years away in the space and show an alien just like him 😂 i still remember the spot. I could send you the location if you want to see that alien
Very good presentation. It makes much more sense now that changes in consonants occurs, especially over vast periods of time .
Thank you. The analysis of historical linguists focuses on the consonants because those are more stable over millennia. However, Uralic linguists also consider in their protoword reconstructions whether there was a front or a back vowel in a syllable because that vowel feature is fairly stable within the Uralic languages in general.
«The 19th-century Finnish linguist and ethnographer Mathias Alexander Kastren, who studied the languages and ethnography of the Finno-Ugric, Samoyed, Tungus-Manchu and Paleo-Asian peoples and compiled grammars and dictionaries for twenty languages, proposed a theory of the kinship of the Finno-Ugric, Samoyed, Turkic, Mongolian and Tungus-Manchu languages».
«…финский языковед и этнограф XIX века Матиас Александр Кастрен, исследовавший языки и этнографию финно-угорских, самодийских, тунгусо-маньчжурских и палеоазиатских народов и составивший грамматики и словари для двадцати языков, предложил теорию родства финно-угорских, самодийских, тюркских, монгольских и тунгусо-маньчжурских языков». (С)
Hello Dr. Revesz, Thank you for the great presentation! I had a question regarding the data mining part, if there are a lot of empty instances in the input data, wouldn’t this affect the rules estimated?
That's a good question. The words list that I used was complete in the sense that there were in each data row cognate Hungarian, Khanty, Mansi, and Sumerian words. Empty values only occurred in some word positions, i.e. when words did not contain either a medial or a final consonant. A good data mining system will allow you to filter out the empty entries from consideration. Another simple approach would be to consider only the word initial consonants, then only the word medial consonants, and finally only the word final consonants. This approach would generate most of the interesting regular sound change rules, although it would not discover anticipatory phonetic assimilations. If you have more technical questions, feel free to write me an email.
This is a very interesting talk, Peter! (And very well presented!)
I appreciate your comment.
hameemmias.vuodatus.net/lue/2017/06/ovatko-suomi-ja-sumeri-sukulaiskielia
@@ristokoivula6999 Kiitos! Simo Parpola's dictionary is a great resource on this subject.
Some words definitely don't belong on your list: the words for mother and father, for example. It is almost a human universal that these words sound similar -- they happen to be sounds small children can produce relatively easily.
Others seem strange and random. Wouldn't we expect kinship terms (other than mom/dad), words for body parts, words for for drinking/eating/hunting, and words for certain animals and plants?
The claim in my work is that the Sumerian language has a Finno-Ugric substrate. A substrate is only a weak connection, and it is recognized that in such cases the majority of the vocabulary comes from somewhere else.
While doing research on Central Asian history, I came to conclusion that Parthians were from Hunor branch of Hunor-Magor brothers. Both Magyars and Oguzes share similar bird species for their totem (ongun in Turkic language). After Arabic invasion, Central Asian literature and script were destroyed by Arabs. Therefore, we lost contact between early middle ages and late middle ages.
While Huns (Ogurs) were expelled from Central Asia, Turks (Mongolic speakers) and Oguzes (-z Turkic) replaced the Central Asian culture.
Interesting. There are over 300 specifically Onogur-origin words in Hungarian according to Turkologist András Róna-Tas. It implies some close ties with this Turkic branch at some point of history to have such a large number of shared vocabulary.
There is an alternative topic to substantiate your research and strengthen the theory further by analyzing Estonian regilaul subjects and its close proximity to the Sumerian Gilgamesh. Regilau is a very reminiscent song singing method to Estonians which is presumed to develop at early years of Common Era. Estonian folklorist Mari Sarv and Amar Annus published n 2015 their paper on similarities of Estonian specific type of regilaul called kurnimäng which is also very reminiscent with Izhorian songs where they play the same kurnimäng game with kuli ja kali (the stick and the ball). What Mari Sarv derived is those kuli ja kali in Izhorian songs are exactly the same as in Sumerian Gilgamesh there's a story of a game where pukku & mekku are played in the same way where the ball that gets hit by the stick lands also on the grave (the gates of the underworld), in Estonian version on mother's / father's grave in Izhorian version on brother's grave, where Gilgamesh can enter the underworld. This motive is very close to Estonian regilaul kurnimäng song and Izorian songs, which leaves more questions than answers. Their article is available here www.digar.ee/viewer/et/nlib-digar:266194/231144/page/46 (in Estonian). In her longer video on regilaul she refers to that Gilgamesh Sumerian similarity at this video at this point czcams.com/video/-QUvE1uBgxw/video.html (in Estonian). This is best closest match one could hope for and I think with Izhorian songs , Estonians regilaul and Seto singing method which is assumed to be very ancient Estonian singing style which predates the birth of regilaul might lead to new important discoveries in our ancient past and bring out lost texts of old songs which we have forgotten but the common memory have preserved it in song text which we have forgotten or don't pay attention to. Mari Sarv could be found on Linked-In (ee.linkedin.com/in/mari-sarv-8b8a8911 ). As Estonian is too complicated and distant for a Magyar I hope what she speaks and sings in Estonian could be understood. So this is my little contribution to connect loosed dots into one single coherent whole. I hope my post might help you to progress on more sound trove of text and information for data mining. BTW Hungarians in Estonian are ungarlased. We dropped the h. We also have preserved madjarid (Maygars). Thou, we never replace the official state name Ungari to madjar. Madjar per se in Estonian explicitly means a nation and using it as a state name is awkward.
Thank you for this valuable detailed information. It is natural to study other cultural similarities beyond language. Some music motifs and accompanying dances and games could preseve an older culture. I also explored some art motif similarities in the following paper: www.wseas.org/multimedia/journals/mathematics/2019/a695106-1169.pdf
@@PeterRevesz Amazing paper! As I'm also into algorithms and data structure this just makes me to rejoice! Thank you and good luck in your researches. I also subbed to your channel long time ago.
Ok(t)ya-Oda-Ota-Ata-in Uzbek is Father. Otets-Отец in Russian.
Thank you. This word may go back to a common Ural-Altaic proto-language. Borrowing seems less likely.
In Tajik Gav-Khwarezmian dialekt of Uzbek language Govmish is Cow.
Hello @Peter Revesz ! The corded ware was actually present in the north European plain, and not in the northern pomtic Steppe as you say it was. It is also not commonly identified with the corded ware culture, as Proto-Uralic is usually agreed as being located east of the urals. The yamna (PIE-speaking) culture was actually present in the Pontic steppe at that time. I think a lot of what you propose here is far fetched, and I believe a more knowledgeable linguist than myself would be able to push back against some of the information in this talk. I’d like to hear a response though thank you!
I mention the Corded Ware Culture in my talk only here: czcams.com/video/kv7pauLtUME/video.html Clearly, this part of the talk is based on the cited research of Lehti Saag et al. "Extended Farming in Estonia Started through a Sex-Biased Migration from the Steppe," Current Biology, 27, 2185-2193, 2017. This study reported the migration of the CWC from the Pontic Steppe to Estonia. This CWC migration from the Pontic Steppe northward preceded the arrival of the Yamnaya culture to the Pontic Steppe.
@Peter Revezc what about sumerian-kartvelian similarities
Where and when was this performance (lecture) given?
This was an invited talk at ELTE University in Budapest, Hungary in November 2019.
42:57 Agni which means fire in Sanskrit similar to Ug (light) in Sumerian
Interesting observation. Thank you.
I looked at the telescope and went 1million light years away in the space and show an alien just like you 😂 i still remember the spot. I could send you the location if you want to see that alien
Why doesn't he show the meanings of the words?
There is only a limited space on each slide, and the focus is on regular sound changes and not the meanings. The meanings can be found in the original paper: www.wseas.org/multimedia/journals/information/2019/a045109-930.pdf
idk, maybe you knew these, but i might add a few finnish words to that list:
father in law - appi
grass - nurmi
hot, heat - kuuma
mound - kumpu
wet - märkä
burn - palaa
btw. we don't really start words with g, words have instead k., also same goes for b, words would have rather p.
also a few came to mind that i've heard before from sumer that resemble finnish:
mahd - might- mahti
ur - mountain - vuori / vaara
lu gal - great man --- a great house in finnish can be called lukaali
ofcourse, i can't say if those sumerian words i listed were any near correct as i've only heard some online from random sources :D
thanks for the video! nice stuff
Kiitos! I appreciate your comments and will consider these words. I already wondered about vouri because towns were often built on hills for safety and Hungarian vár means 'town.'
@@PeterRevesz nice notice!
also from vár came to mind:
father - swedish far
grandfather - swedish farfar - finnish vaari
and btw. came to mind another short sumerian word: gal
finns and estonians use 'kallis' for expensive, or valuable.., gal/kall might be root for the word.
..always love me some decyphering.. :)
@@Chokwik Erinomainen! Suomen 'kallis' may be cognate with Sumerian 'kal' that means "(to be) rare, valuable". This word already occurs in the Early Dynastic period in Mesopotamia.
@@PeterRevesz nice!
the ending 'is' in kallis means in this an adjective, kinda same as in aulis (willing/helpful), or valmis (ready). :)
one not too nice word came to mind: kalma,
old word that meant basically death, or maybe a being of dead.
kal - valuable
ma ... idk, but maa means land /earth
so kalma could mean also precious/rare land.. :)
(actually just occurred to me that modern word for that is kuolema, which actually sounds like book-language version of the old word.. this again shows how consonants are important in studies)
we have lost many old meanings of our words, and we're losing vocabulary as time goes on, so don't mind me if i jump on board excited with every letter i see :D
thanks for the reply! have a nice weekend there
@@Chokwik Mielenkiintoista! The 'koule-' is said to be cognate with the Hungarian verb 'hal' meaning to die. Your idea of connecting kalma with 'precious land' that may derive from 'cemetery of the ancestors' is interesting, but the ou -> a sound change would need to be regular in the context of 'ma' endings.
great
Thank you. Welcome to the channel.
that theory about sumerians going down south is quite impossible.It was extremely difficult to cross through the caucus mountains.
The Proto-Sumerians may have gone by ship from the north to the south side of the Black Sea instead of going through the Caucasus Mountains.
Peter Revesz This may be true, as some of the Scythians settled near the Black Sea. I will attach a link that mentions this fact around the 28:00 minute, but since the presenter does not go into it deeper and cannot imagine that the Sakey-s are still present as Seclers/Székely he goes into guesses and concludes that the name of Sakey might be related to the sack word or Isaac himself.
czcams.com/video/XXL09iWJrfs/video.html
Thank you for the presentetion 🙏🏻
@@PeterRevesz Huns have been invading Middleast through Darial Gorge and Derbent Gorge for millenias. That route was known to ancient peoples. The great wall of Alexander is a famous legend among Middleastern people.
@@alienozdamar You are right that if one already knows about these passes, and the local people allow passing them, then one can cross the Caucasus Mountains on a land route. Local people usually allow traders to pass, but they are reluctant to allow large groups of settlers to come into their territory. The Huns were not a seafaring nation, but the Sumerians may have been living near the Black Sea until the great Black Sea flood, which may have caused them to search for a new place to live.
@@PeterRevesz There was a Turkmen scholar (Begmyrat Gerey). He was doing research about “5000 years of Turkmen-Sumer connection”.
I believe that some of Magyar-Ungar civilization lies in Turkmenistan. Sumerians may have come down to Mesopotamia from Turkmenistan. Caspian Sea Level has changed rapidly after glacial age. Central Asia was swallowed by the rise of water level. From north with Itil (Volga) River, Turgay River... From East with Ceyhun (Oxus) River and Seyhun (Jaxartes) River.
Roman geographer Strabo, Islamic scholars such as Biruni, Ibn Havkal discussed about anomalies of Central Asian rivers and deserts. Riverbeds changed, new cities were founded on dried marshes etc...
so our sumerologist is right👍🙏thanks!her theory is explained here...common ancestry,even in languages
The video shows that Sumerian is not a language isolate. It appears that at least some of the ancestors of the Sumerians came from the north, where linguistic and cultural relatives can be found. These connections need to be explored further in the future.
In the same journal article where I talk about Sumerian and Finno-Ugric regular sound changes, I also indentified an important connection between Sumerian and Dravidian languages, including Tamil. You can read it here: www.wseas.org/multimedia/journals/information/2019/a045109-930.pdf
Dear Mr. Revesz, did you read researcher Kazım Mirşan's scholarships? he already decoded hundreds of European inscriptions and hieroglyphs also some antic egyptian hieroglyphs in proto Turkic/Ural Altaic languages that he knew..
Kazım Mirşan made some interesting observations about the origin of the Orkhon script. In particular, I think that he may be right that some of the Orkhon script signs have roots in old tamgas instead of being simple derivatives of Sogdian signs. The tamgas could be considered an older form of writing going back thousands of years and preserved in rock carvings in Siberia. However, I see no real connection between the Orkhon script and Minoan Linear A. Hence I am skeptical about Kazım Mirşan's Linear A translations. My approach to decihering Linear A is described in this video: czcams.com/video/PiLyN9T2stY/video.html
Kul is ash
Okay?
Na majd ők eldöntik!
Igen, a komputerek és az informatikusok segíthetnek eldönteni sok vitatott kérdést.
Történelemi források? Hagyomány? Régészet? Antropológia? az semmi! Péter Révész?@@PeterRevesz
@@zsuzsadarnai4536 sok kutatási szakmákban rokonság volt kimutatva az ősi Magyar meg a Sumér nyelvek között.
Jondi-Yondi is burned
Cordedware was an indo-european speaking population this has been proven a long time ago
The language of the Corded Ware Culture is debated because they did not leave any written records, unlike the Sumerians. However, according to Lehti Saag et al., based on archeogenetic evidence, some of the CWC moved to Estonia and Finnland, to where they brought a Finno-Ugric language. The CWC came to there from the Pontic Steppe area, which is also the origin of the Sumerians according to Professor Simo Parpola of the University of Helsinki.
@@PeterRevesz on what evidence did they bring Finno-Ugric?
@@PeterReveszit is very well established that the spread of Indo-European languages is associated with the haplogroups R1a and R1b. Another known fact is that early PIE was spread by the Sredny Stog culture, CWC is an offshot of Sredny Stog just like Yamnaya as seen in the adna decomposition of CWC and Sredny stog, and also the genetic affinity between the samples of the two cultures, and the correspondence between the two material cultures.
CWC is responsible for the spread of NWIE, responsible for the spread of proto-Italo-Celtic, Germanic and Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian. Celto-italo-germanic via Bell Beaker, Balto-slavic via Mierzanowice and Indo-Iranian via Fatyanovo.
I don't deny the possibility of an Indo-Uralic language possibly even just simply proto-Uralic as Kortlandt has mentioned in one of his papers, proto-Uralic properly fits the timeframe 6000BC, or 8000ybp, which coincides with the spread of EHGs from Karelia-Siberia into the southwest towards the Volga-delta, where they encounter CHGs and create the WSH cluster responsible for the spread of IE.
@@darkdevil905 Please read the references about that topic.
@@PeterReveszor you could reason the arguments yourself, instead of referencing a 75$ book with poor peer-review.
I can't deny your premise that Sumerian could be connected to Hungarian somehow, but you must explain how an Uralic-related tongue spread to the Mesopotamia with hard facts like DNA sampling of Ancient Sumerian individuals and checking for any Uralic-related adna, without that, it's all very hypothetical.
The problem is that there are no known Ancient Sumerian samples out there to test from.
😁
Thank you for visiting.
Congratulations! I have collected the short Sumerian words (the stem-system of the Sumerian). See www.osfogalmak.hu -- Szerzők (Authors) -- Záhonyi -- Sumer jeltár, sumer szótár (Sumerian-Akkadian-Hungarian symbol collection and dictionary, with English Summary).
Your dictionary seems interesting. Thank you for sharing it with us.
@@PeterRevesz Thanks!
Not particularly convincing. The theory that Etruscan is related to the Nakh-Daghestanian languages is much more convincing -- just to give an example of how to convince a layman with an interest in linguistics such as myself. In that case, the linguistic material is also sparse and the distances between Italy/Rhaetia/Lemnos and Caucasus are also pretty big and the split must have happened a long time ago -- I'd say that makes it comparable to your Uralic Über Alles theory.
(Ed Robertson, "Etruscan's genealogical linguistic relationship with Nakh-Daghestanian: a preliminary evaluation", 2006.)
When you charged me with having a "Uralic Über Alles theory" you left the realm of reasoned scientific debate, and you also slandered me. It is not my task to convince prejudiced people of anything.
3:14 Cheremis is an old Russian name for Mari (mari: "Mariy") people, which even Russians don't use today, so its pretty wrong to use it in this study.. The same is about Votyaks: Russian name for Udmurt people. I believe here (and everywhere) you should use people's self-name.
BTW, word "Ugric" is from Russian name for emm.. "Ugric" ("Ugor","Ugry") people, each of which have their own self-name like "Mansi", etc. And in every Slavic language this name is similar (like "Uherska", etc) and interesting is whom could Southern, Balkan Slavs call this name? Well, they call so Hungarians..
In general, I use the self-name of people. The only exception is when I cite another author's study, which used an older name. At 3:14 I cited Gyula Décsy, and you can see the citation at the bottom of the page.
My Finance PhD is from a “School of Management and Languages” so I’ll dare a sophisticated guess: The first (post-Flood) language was Sumerian with 3-letter words, in particular for cities. The Sumerians were tyrants though, and young generations needed privacy. Akkad was the first city to have 6 characters and indeed no one found Akkad to this day (?). The longer 6 letter words confused the tyrants and granted privacy. Words became more complex with each young generation needing privacy. The language confusion was triggered by the Sumerian tyrannies and started as a confusion of “postcodes.” The problem of tyrants defining “good” and “evil” had existed before the Flood but not in an organised way, so the solution was new: Language confusion. Young people’s most inner programming completely changed, similar to puberty. On the surface, the moral views and the languages changed - provided they were oppressed. I think India could emerge from Sumerian 3 letter or Akkadian 6 letter language - I am curious! They knew of each others’ existence, but not whereabouts. The “wings” that the Indian ancestors got were also a sign that their autism was cured (apart from meaning journey). The famous “Anzu Bird” (e.g. in Gilgamesh) with the broken wings means autism. Hamites (1/3 of Noah’s descendants) became autistic (“Curse of Ham”, Genesis) after they dishonoured Noah. That means they were socially needy - “did not want to leave each other” (Genesis). And before that, they divvied up the land, Noah and his sons, at starting point Eridu, Iraq. The patron diety Enki was the angel that told everyone where to settle (some Hamites didn’t listen). Enkidu (=Enki’s present) in the Epic of Gilgamesh is the Akkadians/Semites/Elamites trying to fix the Hamites/Gilgamesh’s mis-settling, who stopped just 100km after Eridu in Uruk. Japheth, Noah’s other son apart from Hamites and Semites, might have been the ancestor of Europeans, Chinese (=Magog, new lineage of autism) and Indigenous Americans. The northern hemisphere might have been frozen over for quite a while after the Flood (North America even longer) and also dark, if the Earth’s tilt and spin were a little more extreme. The Flood might have been caused by something hitting the Earth to begin with. Fast forward, from 1200 BC Greece onwards, the language confusion might have been reversed and longer words shrunk back to more meaningful 3 letter words. Is there Sumerian 3 letter words and Akkadian 6 letter words ? I am very curious!
Mesopotamia seems to be a meeting place of several language groups. There were Finno-Ugric language speakers likely arriving from present day Turkey, Dravidian speakers from the east and Semitic speakers from the southwest and still others at later times. It is possible that some of the recognized dialects of Sumerian reflect earlier language groups that still were not completely integrated when the earliest Sumerian inscriptions were written. That hypothesis is described in more detail in the paper "Sumerian contains Dravidian and Uralic substrates associated with the Emegir and Emesal dialects" which is available here: www.wseas.org/multimedia/journals/information/2019/a045109-930.pdf
"Post-flood"! Really?
@@PeterRevesz In the old Testament I believe it was in Daniel are foreign words which are Mene, Mene, Tekel Parsin, which translates to your kingdom is finished, you are weighed in the balances and found wanting, kingdom will go to the Persians. MENE means clearly menoa, ie your kingdom is gone, TEKEL, tekoja your deeds are before you, Parsin or Peres To Persians. My guess is that this is a Proto Finno Ugrian language (Daniel ch5 vs25-28)
This would fit in very nicely with my pet theory that Odin is the Biblical Nimrod. Sargon of Akkad. I'm basing part of this pet theory on "The Oera Linda" and the information about Woden in it.
@@chrisnewbury3793 I feel very sobered these days how long our history really is. I think there was Rome, Carthage, and most other stuff is made up. Rome's Constantine spent his life writing fiction.