After all, just a little to the north of this area is the Atacama desert, one of the driest deserts in the world, and just to the south of this strip the weather is far too cold for such planting and harvesting. And inland, beyond this strip, the land rises sharply into the Andean mountains where such crops cannot grow. But just inland from the Bay of Coquimbo is the La Serena valley, which has this Mediterranean Climate and where most of the crops of Chile are grown.
Today, we have great knowledge of such matters, and if we personally do not know something, we can easily seek out the information from numerous sources-so much so that we sometimes forget that such knowledge was not always available. The younger a person is, the less likely he or she will have the experience of trying to find information without the internet, household books, well-read parents, teachers and extensive libraries.
Forget about the revelation argument. It is immaterial to the point of why Joseph and Williams chose to indicate this particular spot on the Chilean coast of South America. In their day, not much was known about the west coast of South America-there was no internet and few families had an Atlas because of the cost.
In addition, few people in New England had ever been to South America, let alone to the West Coast of Chile, and teachings in schools of the day did not include such detailed information on South America-whatever teaching of geography and history at the time centered in England, Ireland and Europe, for that is where the people who settled New England came from.
There is no doubt that the people who sailed north from Hagoth's seaport arrived in MesoAmerica and traveled further to North America. Yes.. Zelph was a descendant of those that sailed north.
Oiy! This video would be a 1000 times better if the illustrations weren't so blasted fuzzy and we could see where home-boy is pointing with his laser. That said, I appreciate the utter lack of emotion in this discussion. Sure it's as dry as a fine wine (not that I'd know) but it was Sagan who said, "Where we have strong emotions, we're liable to fool ourselves." With that in mind, I'd like to think we're at least less suseptable to fooling ourselves.
When one considers the very unique qualities of the area along the coastal strip of Chile exactly at the 30º South Latitude-a fact unknown until late in the 20th Century, that this area has the exact climate, precipitation, soil, soil group, temperatures, etc., as the Mediterranean zone-one of only five such places in the entire world, one must wonder how Joseph Smith and Frederick G. Williams stumbled on this particular location.
Frederick G. Williams, the scribe of the Prophet Joseph Smith, from 1833-1837, jotted down on a piece of paper that indicated Lehi's party landed in 30 degrees south latitude in Chile. This proposed landing site of Lehi was found on the same sheet of paper with a known revelation regarding John the Beloved, and many presumed it, too, was a revelation.
In 1830.. the definition of the American Continent was all of North and South America. The more research I have done concerning the BoM lands points to the area west of the Andean Mountains in Chile, Peru and Ecuador. I believe that everything east of Mountain range was underwater at that time. The BoM lands were completely surrounded by water. It was an island on the sea. There was the Sea North and Sea South as well as the West and East Seas.
However, all this conjecture of trying to show it was not a revelation misses the point. Whether it was a revelation or not is immaterial-what matters is the location written down. What caused Frederick G. Williams in this case, and Joseph Smith in the case illustrated in the previous post where he said it was the landing site of the Lehi Colony, to choose the 30º South Latitude in the first place?
@fairldsorg I saw a DVD of several Fireside delivered by a man who specialized DNA evidence. His lecture was thorough and enlightening. I can't remember much of the details but I will try and gather them for yoou
Have you looked into the Andean theory at all? Parts of Chile, Peru, Ecuador, & Columbia being the Book of Mormon lands? If you looked at the route taken to get to South America.. it is the simplest of all. How do the Meso theorists say Lehi got to the promised land?
Where does God say with his own mouth that the mesoamerica model is accurate? Joseph Smith said he was walking on the "plains of the Nephites" when he wrote to Emma during the Zions Camp march.
That's a pretty manipulative question, there are only a few instances where God says things through his own mouth and the letter from Joseph to Emma is not one of them. Plus, "plains of the Nephites" doesn't mean "Land of Zarahemla" Alma 22 gives us a good description of the Book of Mormon geography and the heartland model doesn't fit. You guys basically are left with fake arguments that say Joseph said so even when Joseph Smith didn't say so.
And even so, how would they have known that the seeds Lehi brought from Jerusalem needed such a climate to grow abundantly and exceedingly? None of these men were travelers to other climatic zones, nor would they have known that about planting and harvesting in the Mediterranean or South America (or anywhere else outside New England).
But such was not the case in 1830, especially to farmers not living within a city, but spent their lives working the fields. There are very few people today, even with all our modern technology and information, that know the circumstances that exist along this strip of Chilean coast in South America, nor that it is an area of temperate climate and arable soil suitable to plant and harvest abundant crops of seeds from Jerusalem that grew exceedingly as the scriptures indicate.
@kmikesell The book of mormon lands have not been placed in central mexico, but in southern mexico and guatemala. If you don't believe in that, read john sorensons ancient american setting for book of mormon, and you'l see real anthropologist place the internal map of the book into that location with convincing accuracy.
Is there anything here that is not entirely speculative? I started watching but grew tired. At the beginning Mr. Poulsen seemed to suggest that as the Bible takes place in a real world setting, it is not unreasonable to assume that the Book of Mormon does also. The problem is that after 180 years there remains a complete and total lack of evidence to this effect.
Why don't you be a bit more specific. Don't send me to some 5 part video. You tell me what it is that you find actually wrong with what I said here. Thanks.
Indeed, Joseph and Williams must have been extremely lucky guessers to choose the 30º South Latitude-the only location in the Western Hemisphere from Mexico to Tierra del Fuego in South America, seeds from Jerusalem would have grown exceedingly and produced abundant crops.
@@davidwelker6499 I don't think so. They landed in South America not North America. I know how bad people want them to have landed in the USA... but they didn't. Mound builders... that is what you think the Nephites built... mounds of dirt? Have you ever really looked at South America? It fits so much better. The hill Cumorah is located in Ecuador. Zarahemla and City of Nephi... all in the land southward... Peru. Look at South America. But remember one thing. Before Christ died on the cross and the earth was changed... South America did not look then the way it does now.
@kmikesell just because you have hard time, doesn't mean anything for the facts. Hil cumorah in NY was named that by Oliver Cowderry, Smith never called it that, it's amodern mormon naming thing like place names in Utah have book of mormon names, but nobody thinks that they have anything to do with the book. Even the church funded Tetaments seems to accept the idea that the bom took place in the central america. But read sorensons work first before you have any more hard time with that issue.
Last night I went outside to take out the trash, and it was biting cold. I live in the East and these cold snaps can be horrendous! The wind howled and my cat would only stay out for a few minutes at a time. As my face threatened to freeze and slide off into the snow, I thought of the ancient Nephites and their accounts in the Book of Mormon. How could this kind of cold escape _any mention whatsoever??_ Gen. Washington wrote about the effects of cold at Valley Forge. So did the officers and soldiers involved with winter operations in Europe during both world wars, especially the Battle of the Bulge. Yet in a thousand-year history there's no casualties from exposure, no crossing frozen rivers, no effects of the biting cold such as what we're experiencing now along the eastern states. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that the lands of the Book of Mormon were in Mesoamerica. If there was ice and snow in Book of Mormon lands, it would be recorded in the military history by Alma or Moroni. Even the brief LDS history in the eastern U.S. is _full_ of references to the hardships of such weather in military ops and missionary work. Heartland advocates should not get so wed to their theories to the extent they can't let them go when better research comes along. -- and Poulson has done a great job in adding to the incredible research that's been done.
Not at all. Jerusalem gets snow all the time. If one looks at LDS history, there are snow storms everywhere. At one point the Lord cut off the saints from the mob with a snow storm. It's in church history. And when the saints fled over the frozen river from Nauvoo and through Winter Quarters. We hadn't gone through thirty years of church history without snow, storms and ice -- and yet we see _nothing_ in the Book of Mormon. Not one words in all those years of history! Parley Pratt and others traipsing through the blinding snow storms, gnawing on frozen pieces of bread -- all that is in our history. So where is it in the Book of Morning. Not one word. As for the extra clothing as armor, that can happen even in hot weather (as shown by the Aztec quilted armor). Nephi experienced snow in Jerusalem and that's only reference. In fact, I was talking with a woman in Jerusalem and I asked her if it ever snowed there. "Yeah," she said, "it's snowing now." She said it had snowed several inches and she was thinking about leaving early to go home. So that would explain Nephi's use of the word.
Look, you're choking on a gnat here. It's not that the Nephites didn't know what snow was, it's that they didn't have to deal with it. They didn't have to travel in it, fight in it, dress for it. We have a history of more than a thousand years, and there's not one reference to it. You can't go twenty years in the history of the latter day saints without all sorts of references to it. Ice storms, snow storms, people dying, leaving bloody footprints in the snow; yet the Book of Mormon peoples (though they undoubtedly knew what the stuff was) clearly didn't have to live or fight in it. Thus, and this is the point, the peoples lived, worked and fought in a tropical environment. Just in my lifetime I've had to live in snow, drive in it, dress for it. The Nephites didn't. And that proves beyond doubt that the events in the Book of Mormon didn't take place in the heartlands of what is now the United States. It doesn't prove they took place in MesoAmerica, but we can rule out where it didn't take place.
no what he meant is I can't believe you still believe that it happened in Mesoamerica. I guess you probably never read any thing put out by joseph smith
I hope you know I was kidding. I would never insult you. Except to say you may be crazy riding a bike to where. I am from montana I know cold (-40 plus degrees) but you rode where. I am not feeling well see you later.
My question to you is.. if what you and I are saying is true... why are the MesoAmerican theorist still trying to make it the Book of Mormon lands? MesoAmerica was filled with Nephites.. those that left the coast of South America on Hagoth's ships. This whole explanation that the narrow neck that runs east and west in Meso.. and saying that the Nephites didn't know their directions... is just crazy! It is them trying to make.. force.. their model where it doesn't belong.
I have no doubt that the American tribes of "THIS COUNTRY" are indeed the people of Nephi. But the USofA is not the land that the Book of Mormon speaks about. Lehi never saw MesoAmerica.. and he never saw North America either. Lehi landed in Chile at a latitude of 30 degrees. We can show you the route he took. I want you to do me a favor. Read 2 Nephi 10:20 and please tell me what it says.. to you.. what is it saying??
the presenter, accomplished yes, doesn't even pronounce the book of mormon names correctly. little things like that are like a picture worth a thousand words. Ammonihah is not pronounced Amm-oh-knee-ha. the pronunciation guide at the back of the Book of Mormon clearly teaches the correct pronunciations of all book of mormon names and it is correctly pronounced Amm-un-eye-hah (phonetically illustrating). if you can't pronounce the names correctly, it makes me wonder about the bigger things.
After all, just a little to the north of this area is the Atacama desert, one of the driest deserts in the world, and just to the south of this strip the weather is far too cold for such planting and harvesting. And inland, beyond this strip, the land rises sharply into the Andean mountains where such crops cannot grow. But just inland from the Bay of Coquimbo is the La Serena valley, which has this Mediterranean Climate and where most of the crops of Chile are grown.
Today, we have great knowledge of such matters, and if we personally do not know something, we can easily seek out the information from numerous sources-so much so that we sometimes forget that such knowledge was not always available. The younger a person is, the less likely he or she will have the experience of trying to find information without the internet, household books, well-read parents, teachers and extensive libraries.
Forget about the revelation argument. It is immaterial to the point of why Joseph and Williams chose to indicate this particular spot on the Chilean coast of South America. In their day, not much was known about the west coast of South America-there was no internet and few families had an Atlas because of the cost.
In addition, few people in New England had ever been to South America, let alone to the West Coast of Chile, and teachings in schools of the day did not include such detailed information on South America-whatever teaching of geography and history at the time centered in England, Ireland and Europe, for that is where the people who settled New England came from.
There is no doubt that the people who sailed north from Hagoth's seaport arrived in MesoAmerica and traveled further to North America. Yes.. Zelph was a descendant of those that sailed north.
Just wondering about the newspaper articles.... do you have some references I could go to and look at them? That would we wonderful.
Oiy! This video would be a 1000 times better if the illustrations weren't so blasted fuzzy and we could see where home-boy is pointing with his laser.
That said, I appreciate the utter lack of emotion in this discussion. Sure it's as dry as a fine wine (not that I'd know) but it was Sagan who said, "Where we have strong emotions, we're liable to fool ourselves." With that in mind, I'd like to think we're at least less suseptable to fooling ourselves.
When one considers the very unique qualities of the area along the coastal strip of Chile exactly at the 30º South Latitude-a fact unknown until late in the 20th Century, that this area has the exact climate, precipitation, soil, soil group, temperatures, etc., as the Mediterranean zone-one of only five such places in the entire world, one must wonder how Joseph Smith and Frederick G. Williams stumbled on this particular location.
@fairldsorg this is the DVD! VERY compelling!
Frederick G. Williams, the scribe of the Prophet Joseph Smith, from 1833-1837, jotted down on a piece of paper that indicated Lehi's party landed in 30 degrees south latitude in Chile. This proposed landing site of Lehi was found on the same sheet of paper with a known revelation regarding John the Beloved, and many presumed it, too, was a revelation.
@Jarkko1983 Nope, sorry. I have a hard time with that. Two hill Camora's?
In 1830.. the definition of the American Continent was all of North and South America. The more research I have done concerning the BoM lands points to the area west of the Andean Mountains in Chile, Peru and Ecuador. I believe that everything east of Mountain range was underwater at that time. The BoM lands were completely surrounded by water. It was an island on the sea. There was the Sea North and Sea South as well as the West and East Seas.
However, all this conjecture of trying to show it was not a revelation misses the point. Whether it was a revelation or not is immaterial-what matters is the location written down. What caused Frederick G. Williams in this case, and Joseph Smith in the case illustrated in the previous post where he said it was the landing site of the Lehi Colony, to choose the 30º South Latitude in the first place?
So he's a chemist.....And this qualifies him how? Did I miss something?
@fairldsorg I saw a DVD of several Fireside delivered by a man who specialized DNA evidence. His lecture was thorough and enlightening. I can't remember much of the details but I will try and gather them for yoou
Have you looked into the Andean theory at all? Parts of Chile, Peru, Ecuador, & Columbia being the Book of Mormon lands? If you looked at the route taken to get to South America.. it is the simplest of all. How do the Meso theorists say Lehi got to the promised land?
@fairldsorg Thanks!
Where does God say with his own mouth that the mesoamerica model is accurate? Joseph Smith said he was walking on the "plains of the Nephites" when he wrote to Emma during the Zions Camp march.
You are correct sir
That's a pretty manipulative question, there are only a few instances where God says things through his own mouth and the letter from Joseph to Emma is not one of them. Plus, "plains of the Nephites" doesn't mean "Land of Zarahemla"
Alma 22 gives us a good description of the Book of Mormon geography and the heartland model doesn't fit. You guys basically are left with fake arguments that say Joseph said so even when Joseph Smith didn't say so.
I want to hear more about Moroni traveling 35 years
And even so, how would they have known that the seeds Lehi brought from Jerusalem needed such a climate to grow abundantly and exceedingly? None of these men were travelers to other climatic zones, nor would they have known that about planting and harvesting in the Mediterranean or South America (or anywhere else outside New England).
It wont let ne post the link...So search for Book of Mormon DNA evidence
@fairldsorg Yep that's it! You've convinced me. You win, I lose. Your right I'm wrong.
I agree.
But such was not the case in 1830, especially to farmers not living within a city, but spent their lives working the fields. There are very few people today, even with all our modern technology and information, that know the circumstances that exist along this strip of Chilean coast in South America, nor that it is an area of temperate climate and arable soil suitable to plant and harvest abundant crops of seeds from Jerusalem that grew exceedingly as the scriptures indicate.
So he's a chemist.....And this qualifies him how? Did I miss something? I no longer believe in the Book of Mormon lands in Central Mexico.
@TheSkepticChristian I have looked at the evidence........And what does Columbus got to do any thing?
@kmikesell
The book of mormon lands have not been placed in central mexico, but in southern mexico and guatemala. If you don't believe in that, read john sorensons ancient american setting for book of mormon, and you'l see real anthropologist place the internal map of the book into that location with convincing accuracy.
Is there anything here that is not entirely speculative?
I started watching but grew tired.
At the beginning Mr. Poulsen seemed to suggest that as the Bible takes place in a real world setting, it is not unreasonable to assume that the Book of Mormon does also.
The problem is that after 180 years there remains a complete and total lack of evidence to this effect.
Why don't you be a bit more specific. Don't send me to some 5 part video. You tell me what it is that you find actually wrong with what I said here. Thanks.
Indeed, Joseph and Williams must have been extremely lucky guessers to choose the 30º South Latitude-the only location in the Western Hemisphere from Mexico to Tierra del Fuego in South America, seeds from Jerusalem would have grown exceedingly and produced abundant crops.
Well actually 30° North Latitude works even better!
@@davidwelker6499 I don't think so. They landed in South America not North America. I know how bad people want them to have landed in the USA... but they didn't. Mound builders... that is what you think the Nephites built... mounds of dirt? Have you ever really looked at South America? It fits so much better. The hill Cumorah is located in Ecuador. Zarahemla and City of Nephi... all in the land southward... Peru. Look at South America. But remember one thing. Before Christ died on the cross and the earth was changed... South America did not look then the way it does now.
@kmikesell just because you have hard time, doesn't mean anything for the facts. Hil cumorah in NY was named that by Oliver Cowderry, Smith never called it that, it's amodern mormon naming thing like place names in Utah have book of mormon names, but nobody thinks that they have anything to do with the book. Even the church funded Tetaments seems to accept the idea that the bom took place in the central america. But read sorensons work first before you have any more hard time with that issue.
Last night I went outside to take out the trash, and it was biting cold. I live in the East and these cold snaps can be horrendous! The wind howled and my cat would only stay out for a few minutes at a time. As my face threatened to freeze and slide off into the snow, I thought of the ancient Nephites and their accounts in the Book of Mormon. How could this kind of cold escape _any mention whatsoever??_ Gen. Washington wrote about the effects of cold at Valley Forge. So did the officers and soldiers involved with winter operations in Europe during both world wars, especially the Battle of the Bulge. Yet in a thousand-year history there's no casualties from exposure, no crossing frozen rivers, no effects of the biting cold such as what we're experiencing now along the eastern states.
There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that the lands of the Book of Mormon were in Mesoamerica. If there was ice and snow in Book of Mormon lands, it would be recorded in the military history by Alma or Moroni. Even the brief LDS history in the eastern U.S. is _full_ of references to the hardships of such weather in military ops and missionary work. Heartland advocates should not get so wed to their theories to the extent they can't let them go when better research comes along. -- and Poulson has done a great job in adding to the incredible research that's been done.
Not at all. Jerusalem gets snow all the time. If one looks at LDS history, there are snow storms everywhere. At one point the Lord cut off the saints from the mob with a snow storm. It's in church history. And when the saints fled over the frozen river from Nauvoo and through Winter Quarters. We hadn't gone through thirty years of church history without snow, storms and ice -- and yet we see _nothing_ in the Book of Mormon. Not one words in all those years of history! Parley Pratt and others traipsing through the blinding snow storms, gnawing on frozen pieces of bread -- all that is in our history. So where is it in the Book of Morning. Not one word. As for the extra clothing as armor, that can happen even in hot weather (as shown by the Aztec quilted armor). Nephi experienced snow in Jerusalem and that's only reference. In fact, I was talking with a woman in Jerusalem and I asked her if it ever snowed there. "Yeah," she said, "it's snowing now." She said it had snowed several inches and she was thinking about leaving early to go home. So that would explain Nephi's use of the word.
Look, you're choking on a gnat here. It's not that the Nephites didn't know what snow was, it's that they didn't have to deal with it. They didn't have to travel in it, fight in it, dress for it. We have a history of more than a thousand years, and there's not one reference to it. You can't go twenty years in the history of the latter day saints without all sorts of references to it. Ice storms, snow storms, people dying, leaving bloody footprints in the snow; yet the Book of Mormon peoples (though they undoubtedly knew what the stuff was) clearly didn't have to live or fight in it. Thus, and this is the point, the peoples lived, worked and fought in a tropical environment. Just in my lifetime I've had to live in snow, drive in it, dress for it. The Nephites didn't. And that proves beyond doubt that the events in the Book of Mormon didn't take place in the heartlands of what is now the United States. It doesn't prove they took place in MesoAmerica, but we can rule out where it didn't take place.
no what he meant is I can't believe you still believe that it happened in Mesoamerica. I guess you probably never read any thing put out by joseph smith
I hope you know I was kidding. I would never insult you. Except to say you may be crazy riding a bike to where. I am from montana I know cold (-40 plus degrees) but you rode where. I am not feeling well see you later.
I take it that you believe in John Sorenson's "explanations"? Ok.. not believe.. but accept?
My question to you is.. if what you and I are saying is true... why are the MesoAmerican theorist still trying to make it the Book of Mormon lands? MesoAmerica was filled with Nephites.. those that left the coast of South America on Hagoth's ships. This whole explanation that the narrow neck that runs east and west in Meso.. and saying that the Nephites didn't know their directions... is just crazy! It is them trying to make.. force.. their model where it doesn't belong.
@olavarria5280 E pluribus unem. See I can quote Latin too! If it makes you feel better I didn't like his suppositions either.
@TheSkepticChristian Promised land = America, not mexico
I have no doubt that the American tribes of "THIS COUNTRY" are indeed the people of Nephi. But the USofA is not the land that the Book of Mormon speaks about. Lehi never saw MesoAmerica.. and he never saw North America either. Lehi landed in Chile at a latitude of 30 degrees. We can show you the route he took. I want you to do me a favor. Read 2 Nephi 10:20 and please tell me what it says.. to you.. what is it saying??
Don't bother
the presenter, accomplished yes, doesn't even pronounce the book of mormon names correctly. little things like that are like a picture worth a thousand words. Ammonihah is not pronounced Amm-oh-knee-ha. the pronunciation guide at the back of the Book of Mormon clearly teaches the correct pronunciations of all book of mormon names and it is correctly pronounced Amm-un-eye-hah (phonetically illustrating). if you can't pronounce the names correctly, it makes me wonder about the bigger things.
People still believe in the mesoamerica model.....