Why Are Congregations So Divided?
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2019
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FULL INTERVIEW: • Why US Religious Congr...
Whether we're talking about race or economic class, most religious congregations in the United States are super homogeneous. This reflects the sociological principle called "homophily," or in simpler terms, "birds of a feather flock together." But why is this? Why are religious congregations so divided?
Special thanks to Dr. Tricia Bruce for co-writing this episode. You can find her on Twitter: @TriciaCBruce or her website: triciabruce.com. Also check out her book "Parish and Place: Making Room for Diversity in the American Catholic Church."
This video was brought to you, in part, by support from Sacred Writes: Public Scholarship on Religion, funded by the Henry R. Luce Foundation and hosted by Northeastern University:
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This can be a vitriolic topic in today's partisan climate, so let's try to practice civil dialogue in the comments. Also, here is the full interview: czcams.com/video/UTK_a-VaHHs/video.html
I feel you touched on an interesting explanation when you mention the word franchises. Divide and rule . Or perhaps we could say, divide and start your own franchise. If there were only ever one big church, then how many priest will there be required?
Birds of a feather...
Impressive research.
Jared Taylor talks about this all the time. I was disappointed by your treatment of this subject. Self segregation is a good thing. Humans naturally do it, and for good reason. What is abnormal and defective is the desire to change natural human behavior that has no disadvantages. That is what the modern day liberals do, and it is terrible behavior.
While being able to shop for a parish that is made up of people "that look like me," in the religious marketplace ignores the reason those separate and divided parishes came about. A single huge church gave birth to hundreds of smaller parishes when the one big church made a decision that made the members of that big church mad. They left, because the big church did something that they saw as "wrong." They formed a smaller group that refused to make that mistake.
One of the big things that I've seen that has caused a parish to split is, and this reflects the subject of the video, welcoming people into the parish that *aren't* the same race as the majority of the parish.
Hello! I'm a practicing Buddhist and the temple at 2:12 is definitely a Vietnamese Buddhist temple. The statue out front is that of Avalokiteshvara, Bodhisattva of Compassion.
Great work on your channel please keep it up!
Awesome, thanks for the insight! I wasn't sure while driving past.
I go to a Tibetan Buddhist temple, and it is the most diverse religious assembly I've ever seen. It is like that in most Buddhist temples that conduct services in English; it will have Asians, whites, and a few blacks and Latinos.
I googled "Knoxville" and "Buddhist" and got this hit "Chùa Pháp Bảo" located at 9909 Dutchtown Rd, Knoxville, TN 37923
Man you are like the religious knowledge vsauce. Thank you for all the videos I am glad I found the channel.
Bell x he only offers academic perspective not actual perspectives but yes I agree
@@mrsaskander The distinction would be academic perspective rather than a devotional perspective, yes.
Nah Vsauce is ScienceforBreakfast of CZcams.
@@kylas1902 ...
@@seniorvenusdigital3904 What? I have mad respect for both.
Oh my gosh, one of may favourite youtubers was at the college I graduated from interviewing one of my favourite professors! What!?!?!
Richard Hofstadter shared the old "joke" about class within U.S. Protestantism. A Methodist is a Baptist who wears shoes. A Presbyterian is a Methodist who's been to college, and an Episcopalian is a Presbyterian who lives on his investments.
That old joke was not wrong.
Sadly the stereotypes are somewhat true... Presbyterians tens to like intellectual approaches to theology
I would say a Methodist is a Baptist who baptizes infants
@@nachtegaelw5389 intellectual? Theology? Lol k.
Micah Matthew What?!
I am an atheist who loves learning about different religions. Insanely fortunate to have found your channel. Well deserved one-time donation!!
2 years later, are you still atheist?
I was shocked when i found out my town has a pastors association and a black pastors association. My friend who was a member of both said she didn't feel like it was certain churches being unwelcome, but the traditionally black churches offering a certain culture that others did not. I also remember a Harvey Carey speaking at the Global Leadership Summit many years ago .His goal was to start a large multi ethnic church in the Detroit area i believe. He got invited to the Black pastor association meeting, as he was black, and was pretty much told to shut down because no one wanted to see it. He grew the church to be one of the largest in the area regardless (Citadel of Faith Covenant Church)
jeff
We also forgot that a lot of these groups were formed pre civil rights.
A catholic once said: "You got 5 congregations by each 3 protestants."
The only two things that Catholicism is good at are ... Maintaining tradition and not splitting up (much). Lol
More seriously... The interesting thing about the history of protestantism is how it had perfectly encapsulated both the positive potential of religion and it's absolute WORST aspects.
I'm not religious person myself and I really like your videos. It's a sociological study with the practice of religion at is center. The homophily you talk about can, I guess, be also found in neighborhood, schools and even work.
It's an important concept in the sociology of families, too. Like tends to marry like. But it's called homogamy when referring to marriage.
I feel like the element of "choice" is overstated. The neighborhoods form around economic lines because the lower classes don't have much of a choice. only those who can move up can be offered the choice.
You haven't seen how many churches are in lower income areas
I think you might be interested in looking at the multi-racial and multi-national christian church congregations in the United Arab Emirates :) the country has a very large population of expatriates from different countries. The government mostly allows people to worship according to their own religion, but the setting up of religious spaces is regulated.
thats interesting, i didnt know anything about the church in united arab emirates. and church congregations in u.k are very mixed. in london churches are crazily multicultural in the pentecostal denomination. ive been to loads of different churches. however there is variation by denominations. more obscure denominations are more racially segregated either white or black.
shaun humphreys If I were to attend a church here in London I’d like it to be “White British” aka British.
@@britopia1341 wow..reasons why..i left christianity I solidarity with Judaism and follow G-d light and teach where racial have no place.christianity where people have many different churches depending on there racial all praying one G-d.i Wonder what G-d thinks or Jesus. We have proverb
Two wives married to one man= pot of poison.
Looks like Jesus have many 👰s. Aka churcheswonder which one he will choose 🤔 .white yellow or black 👀
kairu Anne wambui Judaism is a very exclusive religion. They even try to persuade outsiders not to join. If you want a totally racially inclusive religion just join Islam. British is an ethnic not racial group.
@@britopia1341 islam isn’t racially inclusive they’re very racist against blacks and Many Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans or even Indonesians and Malaysians). That’s one of the reasons why black Muslims are looked down upon and the biggest places for converts to Christianity is in Indonesia.
2:34 Thanks for calling us “Latter-day Saints”. As always, great video!
Brisbane Stake, Australia 👏
Goffdude24 you’re a part of a cult founded by a known conman.
@@podtherod9304 I seriously disagree. But have a nice day, anyway.
@@podtherod9304 I'm Jewish, but LDS is not a threat when Scientology is around. Also Smith was a good writer, unlike a certain "scifi legend"
@@LangThoughts No he wasn't. The Book of Mormon is the most boring book I've ever read.
"Choosing to drive"...cars seem to be a huge factor!
This topic is very interesting to me because I’m mixed race and I’ve always attended two churches, the majority white church near my house and the more mixed race church in the city with a strong Filipino community.
This video clarifies for me a puzzling difference I noticed by living at various times in both Canada and the United States. Canada seems to have much less of the kind of de facto separation on economic and racial lines, and congregations of churches tend to be more mixed. It is understood that recent immigrants will form congregations that will cater to their domestic languages, and also act as centres of advancement. If you are in, say, a Korean Anglican congregation, not only can you hear mass in Korean, but you will be sharing church suppers with board members of the Korean Credit Union who will vouch for your character when you seek a loan to open a store, and the pastor will have the ear of the local Member of Parliament and City Councillor. But after an immigrant community gains a solid foothold, or reaches a third generation, people scatter to whatever church of their denomination happens to be nearby. Canadian city neighbourhoods tend to be very diverse, not only ethnically, but economically. A typical Catholic, United Church of Canada, Anglican, Lutheran, or Presbyterian church will draw its membership from every economic level, because there will be rich, middle income, and poorer people of their denomination living in the same neighbourhood. There are some small enclaves of the wealthy, but most city neighbourhoods include everything from cheap public housing to luxury condos and mansions, jumbled together willy-nilly, and the typical congregation includes them all. When living in the U.S., the idea of racially distinct neighbourhoods stood out to me (and shocked me). In Canada, when we talk about one neighbourhood being "the Greek neighbourhood" or "the Ethiopian neighbourhood", it means that there is a cluster of Greek or Ethiopian stores there, and perhaps noticeably more Greeks or Ethiopians living there, but always within the usual multi-ethnic mix of everybody. It took me longer to grasp the very sharp economic boundaries between neighbourhoods in the U.S.. In a Canadian city they just sort of shmush together, or the houses gradually get fancier from one street to another, or a given block will be mostly well-off professional houses and condos with some cheap apartments and a few crappier houses scattered among them, while another block might be mostly modest houses and run-of-the-mill apartments with the occasional fancy house or flashy condo. But a given wealthy person or poor person might live in any part of the city.
4:32 it sounds like by "supply side" economics you mean "monopolistic competition." Supply side economics has to do with the effects of taxes and regulations. The theory of monopolistic competition has to do with multiple firms selling a differentiated product in the same market. Edit: 10:41 I think that she is getting at Lee K Yuan's insight: "In a multi-racial society, you don't vote based on your economic interests, you vote based on your ethnicity or religion."
You meant Lee Kuan Yew
Yeah, I was getting at regulations by that analogy. Less regulation of religious grouping = niche religious groups proliferating.
@@doranh6410 I knew that was his name at some point. But I got so used to calling him LKY that I forgot.
Actually, I would use the term, "rational choice." That is (or maybe was) an important theoretical perspective in the sociology of religion, which contains the notion of "marketplace." See Rodney Stark.
"we saw a Vietnamese Catholic Church a
congregation almost entirely comprised
of Vietnamese families with services
conducted in Vietnamese"
I wouldn't talk about "segregation" in this case. We catholics are not segregated based on ethincity, nevertheless it sometimes happen that for practical reasons language based group may form.
I have took part in masses in a few languages, even polish, which I do not understand. and while the validity of that mass is not discussed, it's more practical to go to a mass where you can actually understand what's going on.
If there is a substantial number of people to create a parish for people native of a certain languae, there is no reason not to. But it's not something like a "separated congregation" or whatever.
@jeisa Jeis Sorry pal theres no official language of the US
jeisa Jeis “this is america- learn english.” you realize how stupid that notion is, right?
I remember an old roommate of mine telling me how a priest tried to get the Latino Catholics and the white Catholics who attended his church to mingle more often. I don't think he found a solution.
It is a language difference that separates Catholics (Spanish versus English) but sometimes culture can separate them too. White Catholics and Latino Catholics have developed different traditions, especially because Latin American Catholicism has syncretized a whole lot of Native American religion, while European Catholicism has syncretized old pagan European religions. The Catholic Church is generally conservative across the board, but the white Catholics I have seen reflect American conservatives to a tee, whereas the Latino Catholics I have met are always a little different somehow.
There is a Lutheran Church in Eugene, OR called, "United Lutheran Church." The "united" bit came from a consolidation of the Swedish, Norwegian, and Danish Lutheran churches, if I remember right. I suppose the consolidation happened when the first generation immigrants died off, and everyone spoke English. Still, Swedes, Norwegians, and Danes can all understand each other, although they will laugh at pronunciation (both Swedes and Norwegians laugh at Danes and southern Swedes for their guttural tendencies). That would be a very interesting question--what differentiated the three churches, and what sort of barriers did they need to overcome to create "United Lutheran."
Caroline Myss touches the point of Homophily on her book anatomy of the Spirit where she explains the 7 main Chakras & their correlation with the Sephirots mentioned on Cabbala & with the christian sacraments, more specific on her comments about the Sacrament of Confirmation which she describes as a "Social recognition" of the teenagers by their congregation; she describes it as the reaffirmation of the social & emotional roots with that congregation. Her explanation on this book came to my head when your guest on this interview mention that us people search congregations that "feel like home".
Awesome video!
For a while I lived in a small Florida town. In this town on the beach front side were all retirees. On the inland side, it was all Mexicans that worked either in the tomato fields or in the tomato packing plants.
I asked why there were so many different Mexican churches in the town ( They were almost all Catholic). I was told that they were Northeastern Mexican church, Southern Mexican church, North central Mexican church, ect. Even amongst the Mexican Catholic community, their churches were self segregated.
Then USA is not a melting pot anymore.
@@mikloscsuvar6097 Never really was in practice, each cultural group had problems acclimating and fitting in; the Italians, Germans, Irish, Chinese, Japanese, etc. Had to find their own ways and means here and still maintain their separate group identity.
@@BeachsideHank Fitting in problem ≠ maintaining identity
Yup. People don't realize Mexico is such a diverse country. After all, Mexico has 100M people, about a third of what the US does, yet people this side of the border believe all Mexicans to be the same lol.
This is way more interesting than even the title suggested. Your videos are always compellingly argued and thoroughly researched.
Housing segregation is not "self-selected". Formalised housing segregation ended only a few decades ago.
I always thought MLK was more talking about denomination differences under the same umbrella of Christianity. Language boundaries, or even cultures doesn’t really feel like a division under Christianity (to me, that just makes sense). I want to better understand the divisions in denominations (under Christianity). Thanks for the information never the less. ✌🏼
Yes! The divisions within Christianity have much more to do with the doctrines and practices preferred within each of those congregations. Protestant vs Catholic vs ultra charismatic Protestant vs mainline liberal denominations vs Mormon vs seventh day Adventist.
kelli reyna
That’s exactly what I’m talking about. I would love to hear the major/main theological reasons and/or differences between these denominations of Christianity. For me, that’s where I see the most division and quite possibly it is due to a basic lack of understanding of what the differences between each of them even are. It’s rather curious to me that someone can be labeled a Christian, but have SO many different meanings as to what that actual BASIC belief system even is. Is Christ the center focal point for them all? I would assume so, but what’s the differences in theology then. Why are there 4 and 5 different denominations on every corner in some of our Country’s “Bible Belts”. I guess that’s the true information that I’m after. If you don’t speak great english, I get that. The Bible is hard enough to understand and learn. I could not imagine doing it away from my native tongue ✌🏼
@@talk2bpcable Religioustolerance.org is a great starting point to explore the differences between various denominations. Christian as an umbrella term can be somewhat unwieldy as it covers a staggering number of religions that agree on practically nothing universally.
Bryan Phillip There is a book that respectfully outlines the development of Protestantism, it’s primary branches/denominations (both in Europe and the U.S.), Roman Catholicism, as well as certain non-Christian traditions, with historical context, in a book called “Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy”. You might find it worth your time. Also worth mentioning that although it is popular RC teaching, historical investigation doesn’t support the idea that the rest of the united church in the 1st millennium split from Rome.
This is a good topic, but King was definitely referring to racial separation in worship.
Awesome, love every video lately. Now off to listen to the full interview
Man, I wish I'd known you were gonna be in knoxville!
hillbilly capital of the world
@@damongardiner4133 you've clearly never been to Kentucky or Unicoi county Tennessee.
Tough subject, but you handle it well. Very much enjoying this channel. :)
Geat content! As having started my 1 semester in s/k anthropology, your content relates and supports a lot of the content I get in university!
It's simple freedom of association. Most populations have an in group preference. More social harmony. My parish provides a Spanish-language mass in between out two English-speaking masses to service the temp migrant workers in the area who don't have their own parish. The English servicess are about 90% Anglo and the Spanish one is obviously entirely Hispanic. We're still all see each other as the same community.
You did a great job on this one!
This is a great channel and it's the kind of religious education I wish I'd had access to earlier in my life.
You have such a fascinating channel. I love how educating this all is.
Interesting! I'm looking forward to listening to the full interview next.
Is this true for other regions where religion is less important like Europe? The eastern orthodox churches in my city are often a meeting and melting pot of various peoples under the same denomination but otherwise very different backgrounds.
Makes sense. With fewer religious people in an area, there would be a more integrated group in the church.
Inherent to Orthodox Christian teaching is the trans-nationality of the Gospel. While sadly there are still pockets of it, the church publicly condemned division along ethnic lines, or ethnophyletism, in the 1800’s. There are also many parishes in the U.S. that have services in English but recite the Lord’s Prayer in the prima lingua of their laity. My local parish will sometimes end up saying the prayer in as many as 8-10 different languages, which quite moving.
I know this is an old video, but I discovered it shortly after listening to a book by Frederick Douglass in which he talks about literal segregation in churches, and being denied entry to churches even in states that didn't allow slavery.
It always astounds me just how much America obsesses over race. More than any other place I know, everything seems to be drawn back to race there.
In a way, everything does go back to race there (i.e. blacks and Native Indians = automatic underclass, for most of its history). But I know what you mean. EVERYTHING is about race, but class is seldom mentioned.
@@floraposteschild4184 They're conflated. Economic class degradation is protected by racism. Distraction and misdirection are tools of the political trade.
@@saberswordsmen1 It's also what keeps you stuck. Race, for most purposes only a construction of the human of imagination, is part of the class struggle, but only a part.
Well done, thx! And it really illustrates how much of our current 'polarization', at all levels, isn't about 'politics' or even 'religion', as much as our differences in Culture and socio-economic Class.
I can relate to your example of a Vietnamese family travelling a farther distance to go to a predominantly Vietnamese service. I'm currently spending the summer in a place where the primary language is not English, and even though there are church services which may be closer to what I'm used to back home, I've ended up attending an English speaking congregation even though it doesn't as closely resemble what I'm used to. I tried attending some services in the local language, but there was definitely a degree of self-consciousness there due to being the only white person there and not being able to follow along as readily as the native speakers. Even though the self-selection may end up resulting in a degree of segregation, I'm able to understand the mentality behind that aspect of it.
Of course, self-selection isn't the only factor that goes into it, but it's one aspect that I've come to understand more personally over the last couple months.
Its only bad when white people have homophilly.
@@DMWayne-ke7fl oh my god so true!
Keep up the work brother. Can you make a video about Hinduism?! I’d be super interested.
I'd also be interested in Jain and Sikh.
when i heard strip mall i was confused and my mind focused on the strip part but then i looked the word up and it is just another name for a shopping centre
Dennis Megacock Prager Strip mall is a block of shops not under a unified roof. Often with parking in front of the shops. Shopping mall in America is under single roof with a general entrance.
Strip malls are out door collection of shops original made from strip mines
@@suem6004 it's a troll account cracking a joke lol
@@NordeGrasen34 Not necessarily. I didn't know that, either. When non-native speakers hear "strip mall", they automatically draw the parallel to "strip club", I suppose.
One of my most favorite channel.Valuable info. I always learn more .I look forward to each new video. The balanced approach is great. Thanks for all the work you put in .
Thanks for the encouragement! I was a little nervous about this episode because the topic of race can bring out the worst partisanship.
@@ReligionForBreakfast your welcome. I wouldn't say what i said, unless i meant what i said. There is a whole lot of hurt people in our world. I try to do my best to look past the hurt feelings what are being expressed, to try to sense what reason might be that will help to cause people to react so angry. You do a great job at what you do. And i have a feeling, the work what you do, is helping to educate many people worldwide. This anger wont go away like magic. Will take time. All the best wishes from New Zealand
Hope you enjoyed your visit to Knoxville! I graduated from a private Christian school in Knoxville and when I first arrived I was surprised to find how racially homogenous it was, especially considering the fact that the private school closest to us both charged more in tuition and featured greater ethnic diversity.
These are important docos! Keep up the good work
Very cool video. I'm currently doing a study on religious participation among a particular group of people. Finke and Stark's writings on religious market is insightful.
Thanks for your great work 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Great topic being discussed.
I went to an all black congregation for about two years growing up when I was in a relationship with my girlfriend at the time. I was accepted with open arms. It was honestly one of the best churches I went to. The community and Bond was there. I never thought about my race or colour when I went there. I felt human and that everyone around me was human. Im guessing that most people like to stick with what they grew up with and the segregation before the 60's plays a big factor into why most congregations in the south are still separated. Not by choice but out of habit. Also I'm not saying people don't choice where to go to worship. I was merely talking about the area I grew up in. A lot of it outside of my area is most likely choice. And I do area similarity plays a huge role into selection of where to go for a church or any other religious area
P.s. I have noticed in my area growing up that over time churches in the area are slowly mixing more. Which is a good thing. In the cities and bigger towns I find a mostly mixed congregation with no clear majority or the majority being in the majority very slightly.
great info. thanks for sharing
I used to live in the suburbs of Knoxville and I can definitely attest to a lot of the stuff you saw haha. My family was Catholic (none of us, including my parents, practice anymore) and we felt out a few of the parishes in the area. The Baptist church down the street was the big game in town, though, and their activities literally structured town activities, to the point where Sunday traffic anywhere in town was entirely dependent on their service schedule.
Another thing I noticed as a once-Catholic who moved a lot was how much those kinds of local environments impact an organization as supposedly universal as the Catholic Church. Around 2008 I heard a homily in the Tennessee hills that was basically Evangelical-tinged talking points of religious conservative politics advocating for the War on Terror. In Orlando, Florida, though, the priests were so worried about inclusion and the like that they specifically chose to do the new translation of the Apostle's Creed because they objected to things in the new Nicene Creed (I don't remember exactly what). In my family, at least, political and social ideas matter a LOT in finding a parish, and ultimately in deciding not to practice once a particular diocese cracked down on such objections.
So cool to see you come down to my neck of the woods. Live an hour below Knoxville!
Almost all of our Catholic churches and each congregation within them here in Australia are multi-racial. But within each parish, I do see smaller prayer groups, social groups are friendship groups which form along racial lines.
1:52 hey, that's 3 miles down the road from my house! There's a little Russian food shop in that complex that I go to all the time.
LDS wards are primarily geographic. You live within ward boundaries or within another ward boundary. Some specialized wards focus on singles or language. But in general, you do not choose your preference. Your church records travel with you based on ward boundaries. Also, new wards are created and boundaries set by number of available priesthood who provide leadership.
Sue M weirdest name I ever heard for a place of worship, I thought they were temples
@@mrsaskander For me there's alway been two definitions of 'ward' that struck me as being appropriate. The 1st definition I came across said, "A person who is under the protection or custody of another.", which makes sense to me, as we are coming together to be in the custody and protection of Christ. 2nd definition, and the one I enjoy the most, is the verbal use of 'ward', meaning "Watch over or shield from danger or harm; protect", which has a few applicable meanings: We come together to be shielded and protected by Christ and the Holy Spirit, or, we as Saints come together to watch over each other in the faith.
I hope the reply helped explain! It's definitely something I get asked a lot about our church.
@@mrsaskander Ward used to be a term sort of like precinct or borough. It was a term for an area. Mormons were among the people moving west and founding towns, and congregations tended to be in geographic clusters, so the ward term stuck.
Eternal Life Harvest Center sounds like an apocalyptic church.
Thank you very much! Your channel is very interesting and insightful.
My personal background is mainly instructed through the Public Education System, so any religious related material is sparse and cursory at best and would be presented in a "non-critcal" context: "Inclusive" is a term that comes to mind.
So, a broader more pragmatic perspective is .....good?...helpful?...
Anyway, thanks. Great work.
👍
"Including a big church built into an old warehouse."
Warehouse churches represent!
*high-five*
*high five*
I've noticed that in some churches if you ask about becoming a member and you stand out from the general population, they make it more difficult for you to enter (often telling you there are classes you need to take that never seem to happen). However, if you fit into the homogeny of the congregation, they will put you on the "fast track" to becoming a member. I don't think it is ever intentional, but rather subconscious.
My old parish (I'm white) started having Vietnamese masses too and has gained many parishioners. Still segregated, but they're sharing material resources which makes it pretty cool.
As long as religious groups continue to place more value on having children than non-religious groups, the idea that religion will peter out is very flawed. Indeed the opposite may ultimately be true as demographics swing back due to the de-facto viability of their memetic potential.
True. But there's what you say, and then there's what you do. For example, I'd venture to say the vast majority of Catholics in North America and Europe are using some form of birth control now -- and I don't mean the rhythm method. Once people reach a certain educational and economic level, "values" like that can go by the wayside. Though they're still hypocritically encouraged for poorer people.
What about cross church events / networking? I know that when I was growing up, our church would sometimes invite other churches to sit with us from flint michigan. Although I have no clue how common that is.
I have only heard of this.
Well done!💯✍🏾
I still don't like the way you use the word "protestant" as a blanket term for everything non Roman Catholic. Other than that, great video, would like to see proof though of the development direction diversity that you claim. Hope to have time to check out the full interview soon. THANK YOU!
This has probably already been addressed elsewhere in the comments, but the religious building shown at about 2:15 when you said there were places you couldn't identify was a Vietnamese Buddhist temple.
When I read the title I was assuming it was going to be about the division of beliefs in Christian churches, but instead it's a video about racial segregation in congregations. Hmpt.
I am really enjoying your videos, What is your second channel with the full interview?
Very interested video. I go to a Vietnamese methodist church. I was only going to go for one day, but they asked me to eat with them and accepted me into their family, I've been going ever since. I love them all as my brothers and sisters, and I am only one of two people of European descent in the church, the rest are Vietnamese. I will keep going, even if I don't understand their language yet, they have inspired me to be closer to God.
Funny story: When I lived in Rochester NY, I went to the Non-Ashkenazi synagogue, even though I am Ashkenaz. Even though they were set up as a Non-Askenaz congregation, 40% of the regular attendees were Ashkenaz. There was also a Black and a Latino convert (though the former often went to the Chabad synagogue, too). They follow the Syrian rite, even though there were no Syrians (IIRC, that was the point; we'll go like nobody's rite), and the Rabbi is Bukharian (The assistant Rabbi is Ashkenaz :| )
Kind of like how when you go to an Italian Restaurant in the south none of the workers are Italian.
The majority of your drive by examples of segregation were primarily segregated by language. With the language being used being the defining factor, yes that will result in segregation, but that’s a very week point to your view.
Not that I am saying you are wrong in your over all claim, but language barriers should not be factored into this examination.
I'm pretty sure only two mentioned language. Also, I highly doubt that there would be very many Vietnamese-Tennesseans who cannot understand English; they could go to an English-speaking church if they wanted to. But people who speak the Vietnamese language usually share the Vietnamese culture, which is why you can't just disentangle language from other parts of culture; a distinct language is part of the foundation of a distinct culture, as it plays a critical role in the formation of cultural barriers.
As someone who regularly attends church, I think this is entirely to be expected. We specifically want our churches (synagogues/mosques/etc) to reflect our cultures and traditions. That's a large part of the function they serve, which you've directly addressed many times before. When deciding on which church to join after moving, I specifically looked for one that reflected my traditions. So while we're open and welcoming to people of all backgrounds, everybody pretty much looks/sounds like me because it's directly based on my cultural background.
Love the little bit at the end, although "Eternal Life Harvest Center" sounds a bit scary to me...
Caitlin Doughty has a nice video about funeral home segregation that is probably linked to this topic as well
this was super interesting. I grew up going to a Catholic church in the UK and it was a mixture with large groups of Irish, Polish, Portuguese, Maltese, Filipino, Nigerian, Ghanaian and Indian families, among others. but, it was really the only Catholic church in the area, so it is very much in keeping with the things Dr Bruce says.
@ReligionForBreakfast - Academically, can the term "credo" be used outside of religious matters? For example, could a secular group have a credo.
Why are there so many different congregations? Simply speaking, Birds of a feather flock together.
Interesting video. It got me thinking about my upbringing in Saudi Arabia, how there is no free marketplace of religion, and in mosques natives and foreigners of all origins regularly gather, even though the society there is very much segregated along ethnic lines. After moving to Germany, a place of far more ethnic cohesion I was surprised to notice how many churches and mosques seem to be devided along ethnic lines.
It would also be interesting to know if people not only choose the congregations by who they want to hang around with but if they use the same criteria to choose the denomination and even which religion they want to join.
I was just walking around the other day and found a Korean Baptist church with Korean lettering on the sign, and thought, "Wow, that's a thing?" Same thing a couple years ago when I found a Taiwanese Presbyterian church. Now I understand a little better, but it's still surprising to me that such surprising niches have large enough congregations in one city to exist.
It would be interesting to know what the situation is in other racial mixed countries.
This depends upon religion. In the Caribbean, there are folk traditions practiced side by side with Catholicism. Protestantism has grown in the Caribbean and that's somewhat changed the acceptance and practice of folk religions. There is a syncretism that occurs where the church is your boss or daddy whereas the folk religion is your mama. I'm sure that there are divisions, but they're more nuanced. For example, the more in touch you are with your folk traditions the more like the adherent is dark skinned and/or low-income. The more formal you are about your religious practices in the Caribbean and to some large extent Latin America, the more likely you are in a respected socioeconomic position and light skinned. Bear in mind that Latin American is more culturally, ethnically and spiritually diverse than what is credited for and this is a _very_ condensed account.
Where I grew up the two main religions both used dead languages in their services, so places of worship drew a big mixture of ethnic groups. In other countries it was self-segregated because people wanted to hear their own languages when they worshipped.
So, I live in Knoxville and without watching the interview yet it seems that the focus is on Catholicism. While there is a fairly large catholic population the vast majority of religious adherents are protestant. At the beginning of the video at one point you're driving down Kingston Pike through Sequoya Hills (very wealthy area) where there's about a dozen churches of different denominations, Jewish to a variety of different protestant churches. Then you drive to east Knoxville where you find mostly Baptist or Methodist churches. The only Catholic church I noticed was Sacred Heart. If you drove off the main road that runs through Knoxville you'll see a lot more Baptist churches as well as Pentecostal type churches too. In fact, I would argue that Knoxville is largely conservative protestant. And, Dr. Bruce teaches at Maryville College located in Blount County only miles from Knoxville (Knox County). Blount County is much more religiously protestant than Knox. Blount is a rural county and I cannot think of one Catholic church in Maryville, only two in Knox, St. John Newman and Sacred Heart. There's nothing wrong with focusing on Catholics in your research, but OMG, this area is not known for its Catholicism. BTW, I'm an atheist who grew up in Knoxville in a southern baptist family. I couldn't care less about anyone's religious affiliation so long as a person's faith doesn't intrude on me or my kids. But Knoxville's Catholic population while fairly large is dwarfed by the more conservative Baptist and Pentecostal churches. Maryville, doubly so.
i live in the uk and my local church is quite diverse, even our priests are Irish American and Etriean. Ive never seen an only white or Filipino catholic parish over here, catholics here are "other" enough
I live in a small town which is still predominately middle/upper class Caucasians so I think churches reflect the neighborhood to a certain extent. Unfortunately this is due to redlining from this towns inspection. If I wasn't an English only speaker I would know exactly which towns to go to to find churches that speak my language. Also let's say that if your native tongue is Spanish, it is easier to go to a Spanish service because you already know the music, liturgy and the sacred scriptures by heart in that language.
At 2:36 you said Latter Day Saints call their churches "wards", but LDS folk actually just call their churches churches. "Wards" refer to different congregations, and which ward you fall into is based off of geographical boundaries and where you live. This is so that multiple wards can meet in the same church building, while still being separate entities (i.e., the different wards that share a building will have a different bishop and counselors from each other, and different people fulfilling all the different callings/roles in the ward, and will meet for sunday morning church at different time slots). A grouping of different wards that are all near each other forms a "stake", and each stake has a church that is usually larger than the other LDS churches in the area that is designated as a "stake center" (still called a church except when needing to differentiate it from other churches that do not fulfill that function) which is used for events/gatherings like Stake Conference. Occasionally you might hear someone call an LDS church a "meetinghouse", which is also a valid term for them, but is less common--this usage is mainly to distinguish very clearly between churches that are used for regular Sunday worship and temples, even though no one would ever call a temple a "church", or anything other than a "temple" for that matter. But yeah, usually Latter Day Saints just call their churches "churches"--no one ever calls them "wards", since that refers to something else other than the physical building.
I was going to say this same thing. Church = the entire organization (e.g. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), or the building in which we meet; ward = congregation divided along geographical lines that meet in church buildings (e.g. church, meeting house, stake house). Temples are more sacred buildings that are never called churches, but are used by the whole church organization.
It's a real headache to even understand the differences but I often see bitter discussions between members of the different Christian Faith's
Mate, from which period is the map of Greece you have on this video?
mosques are probably some of the most diverse houses of worship you can find. check out the largest mosque in any major american city and you'll be surprised by how many nationalities, ethnicities, and languages you'll find represented within.
I'm curious, you stated early on that once a group reaches 20% representation, they are much more likely to have influence. I'm working on some projects for social capital development in my field and this sounds like something that I should be considered in the target composition of my groups. Can you point me to some research on this? Thanks!
influence should be based on the character of the people not the race ..MLKJ
@@damongardiner4133 I don't necessarily disagree but I'm talking about what is, not what should be.
It's an effect of the Pareto principle, I believe.
I just want to say that Latter Day Saints call the building that we meet in a chapel and the congregation is called a ward, branch or group depending on the size.
I also want to say that I completely misunderstood that sentence and that you said nothing that I know to be wrong.
You may find this academic journal article of interest. Google "Religious Homophily and Biblicism: A Theory of Conservative Church Fragmentation" by Dr. Darren M. Slade.
I attend a mixed race church - one that was set up to be multiethnic, and I think it’s great. What really surprised me the first time went was not that it was mixed race, but more how many mixed race families were there. I guess that with segregated churches, there is always one of a couple who feels like an outsider, so a multiethnic church is a “safe space” where everyone feels at home.
Awww man I missed you I live in tn
Same. :(
I wonder how much of the division is due to comfort. I can't help thinking of that episode of the Simpsons where Marge went to Shelbiville and said on returning, "They were looking at me, with their eyes.". As an introvert I don't like sticking out, and will often find situations where I can melt into the crowd.
God Bless Everyone
Hmm, I wonder on thoughts on what makes a congregation Multicultural; I'm in Canada as a Youth Pastor at a Filipino-Chinese Christian Reformed Church; It is 3 language services, one for Mandarin with many Mainland Chinese, a Minnan service for those of Fujian or Taiwan decent; and English for those Born & Raised in Canada; Me and the English Pastor are the only Caucasians; Everyone else is 1st - 3rd gen immigrant from either the Philippians or China; They call themselves 'multicultural' with much pride, but I would say they are 'intercultural' at best, and at worst Pan-Sino. You mentioned the 80/20 where a group can start calling themselves multi-racial (Not sure if this church can yet), but what about multicultural? Can we call a church that is 40% English, 20% French and 40% German multi-racial? Is it Multi-cultural? Definitions and thought experiments please :D
As someone who was raised in the LDS church they also typically draw geographical lines but in Utah we have a relatively large Latino population as well, many of which prefer to attend with other Spanish speakers so there are a number of spanish speaking wards
As a child I lived in a town of 430 people with two churches, but we drove 15 minutes away to another church in the next town over. I asked about this at least once: "Why don't we go to the church we can walk to?" I never got a good answer, though I eventually learned it was a denominational issue (they were Lutheran, we were Charismatic).
Great topic! If people were honest and not nominal Christians they would know what a contrast it is to have an "ethnic" or national Christian Church. One of the reasons i left Greek Orthodoxy was that i wouldn't be in a Church with a nationality. I found that in Catholicism. Which is why i found the "Vietnamese Catholic" church unacceptable. Catholicism is the opposite of racial Churches
Then would you go to a church where you don't understand a word of what was being said?
It's not that they have their own brand of Catholicism or something. It's that there are enough people speaking their language and with the same cultural background to form a congregation.
I always kind of wondered why in any given city, so many churches are cluttered around just a few city blocks usually downtown. Theories I've heard included that it was a misguided attempt at promoting religiosity (more churches = more Christians to be welcomed, which is not the way it works), that it works as a sort of crime deterrent to that cities want to encourage... but what you said about how it's sort of like market competition makes a bit too much sense.
And that’s why I love working in construction, you meet people of all types of walks of life. Makes one appreciate the diversity our world has
You are awesome
where'd you get your glasses
So we are selecting religious communities based on our tradition, language, but also systemic reasons.
This explains a lot why there are some many Queer Pagans (including myself).
@a sick nothing, truly a loathsome creature. You just made her point.
I think the free choice perspective is a very problematic perspective. One of my professors once remarked, when asked about self-segregation, that homophily might explain why people group together, but it doesn't explain why they would group together in the poorest, most run-down, most dangerous, etc. parts of town. This is the essential issue with a classically liberal perspective. It explains phenomena on the basis of choice, and then situates choice in terms of personal accountability, erasing the greater structures that underly those choices. For instance, we can talk about the way in which legal, race-based segregation created segregated communities which have still not been successfully integrated. Convenience makes it easy to choose a church in your own community, but we need to ask why that community came about to begin with. Relatedly, there is a sense of hostility that can drive these decisions. Leaving aside things like openly white supremacist sermons, people of color might find the environment of an all-white church hostile (openly or through things like colorblind racism). This isn't a "level playing field" in a "free market" promoting "choice" it's people responding to multigenerational violence. Finally, let's look at language-based self-segregation. Instead of uncritically saying, "oh look Vietnamese people have a Vietnamese-language church, isn't that nice" we should be asking, "if there is a substantial Vietnamese population in this community, why are churches not putting in effort to make their churches Vietnamese-friendly". This entire discourse needs a big heaping spoonful of Antonio Gramsci. Don't look at what people are choosing to do when their choices are essentially manufactured by hegemony.
Additionally, I think your conclusion takes this in the wrong direction. Rather than looking at the idea that homophily is a good and bad thing, we should be criticizing homophily as a way of looking at things. Simply put, homophily is not a useful idea because it doesn't account for power and society.
What is 'colorblind racism'?
@@marlonmoncrieffe0728 Colourblind racism is a form of racism where people attempt to ignore race without acknowledging the realities of structural racism. The first problem with it is that it ignores material realities that are built on race. For instance, redlining pushed people of colour into poor, overpoliced neighbourhoods, which has had a legacy of poor education, criminal records, and poverty to this day. Ignoring race (and its role in modern issues) is a form of racism that permits racial injustices to continue. The second problem with colourblindness is that it just straight-up doesn't work. We are so steeped in cultural racism that we tend to act in racist ways even without consciously knowing it. We must instead acknowledge our racist training and consciously correct for it.
@@Salsmachev
Even if structural racism did exist (which it does not), I do not see how how being race-conscious helps with that.
Are you trying to justify legal handicaps and extra-special privileges for the supposedly oppressed?
Now what is 'cultural racism' and what racist ways do we act?
@@marlonmoncrieffe0728 I literally gave you a concrete example of structural racism.
I don't consider human rights to be extra-special privileges.
Cultural racism is the way in which culture disposes us to act towards certain groups. The most obvious form of this is stereotypes, which unconsciously and consciously inform how we interact with people. There was a fascinating study that found that resumés with white-coded names were significantly more likely to get called for an interview than identical resumés with markedly Black-coded names.
@@Salsmachev
Yes, you gave me an example of 'structural racism'; this 'redlining' thing. Now what is to be done about it? How does being more race conscious have to do with anything?
Racial minorities already havd the same human rights unless I am missing something.
Ah, that old 'black-sounding name/resume' argument.
Now how does one 'consciously correct' for racial bias? And how does one determine a racial minority meritocratically lost out to a white person?